should there have been JLU member deaths?

[Wolf Boy2]

This topic was brought up already, derailed and subsequentely closed. But I think there are still valid points to discuss.

Although I don't think a single episode like "Destroyer" should contain multiple deaths, I think it might have been dramatic if minor characters had been built up and killed (a la Dan Turpin).

What do you think? While I know I argued that it would be traumatic for children to see one of the big seven die, it wouldn't be so bad for a minor character.

I know this could NEVER have happened, but I would've liked it if Superman had actually killed Captain Atom in their big fight. The drama of "OMG I just killed my friend" would've been good.

But, I also realize that DC comics wouldn't have allowed any heroes to die, so its all hypothetical, really.

[SuperBat]

I'll respond... cautiously. ;)

I wouldn't have wanted Superman to kill Captain Atom, but I understand your train of dramatic thought. I could see a similar scenario in which Galatea killed Steel, but that wouldn't have been to a hero's fault.

Crimson Avenger, given his comic history, may have been an interesting choice. Shining Knight or Dr. Fate might also have made for some epic sacrifices.

Overall, I think it would've made an interesting mid-season ep, but I wouldn't want to end on a sour note.

[S.C.B]

I actually though Captain Atom was dead when he blew up in 'Initiation'. I was a little disappointed that they brought him back; it would have really set the tone for the darker season that followed.

But then again, I liked Captain Atom's conflict with the more impulsive members of the League, so I'm glad he came back. Wish I could have seen him interact with more impulsive Leaguers though (teaming him up with Booster Gold would have been so much fun).

I think characters deaths work when drama and emotion can be brought out of it not just from the death itself, but from the aftermath. As SuperBat said, if someone was to die in JLU, I would have liked to be mid season to give some dramatic weight to the final showdown.

[Cortez2301]

I would never want a hero to die except for maybe a cop who is considered a hero (like Dan Turpin).Though I really wanted to see a villain die in "destroyer" even though alot of them died in "alive" but "destroyer" was more of a war.They should have brought all those armies (Vunderbar and granny good ness and the rest who didn't go to Earth) from Apokolips down to earth.See what will happen...CARNAGE! DESTRUCTION! CHAOS!

[DisneyBoy]

I actually though Captain Atom was dead when he blew up in 'Initiation'. I was a little disappointed that they brought him back; it would have really set the tone for the darker season that followed.

I was totally there with you, jaw on the floor. Cap's survival was a surprise, an initial let-down even...but like you, I'm glad he stayed around. Now I just wish they'd figured out earlier on if he was playing on the side of Cadmus in "Task Force X".

Wish I could have seen him interact with more impulsive Leaguers though (teaming him up with Booster Gold would have been so much fun).

Great idea!

Overall though, killing off a Leaguer might have been handled in too dramatic a fashion. This way, while no one died, we still got great stories. Once characters start to die, you get the typical "Better off before/after character X died" discussions, which mostly hurt our enjoyment of the show.

[Toddman]

I actually though Captain Atom was dead when he blew up in 'Initiation'. I was a little disappointed that they brought him back; it would have really set the tone for the darker season that followed.

I was totally there with you, jaw on the floor. Cap's survival was a surprise, an initial let-down even...but like you, I'm glad he stayed around.

Add me to the list that thought Cappy bought it in "Initiation." After Superman's "ultimate sacrifice" line during his speech at the beginning of the episode and Capt. Atom's conversation w/Green Arrow about not being flesh & blood (a handy out for a sci-fi, non-bloody-mess death if ever I heard one), it really seemed to me that it was all being set up to go that way.

And I too am glad his character stuck around for the conclusion of the Cadmus arc.:p Speaking of which...



I know this could NEVER have happened, but I would've liked it if Superman had actually killed Captain Atom in their big fight. The drama of "OMG I just killed my friend" would've been good.

In my opinion that would have been terrible. Especially after seeing that the main thrust of Luthor's manipulation and the resulting delimma for Superman dealt with the idea that even when pushed to the edge, Supes wouldn't kill his worst enemy under the most provoking circumstances.

If he had accidentally killed a teammate, it would have really clouded the entire issue.

Toddman

[Lestat74]

Yeah, I think some heroic deaths would have been warranted. It would have been nice if background characters like Vibe, Commander Steel, Ice, Crimson Fox and some others that were dead in the comics had been built up a bit more character wise, so maybe if they had died in Destroyer it would have given it more meaning. I don't think that DC would have allowed them to kill off any of the big guys, but would have likely let them kill off characters that were A: Minor and B: Dead in the comics already.

[James]

I would suggest that given the nature of the market, this is hypothetical beyond the realms of what "would be". I would have been one who would have liked to see the Flash die, be it at the end of season two of JLU or in season three - or - as one member put it - become part of the Speed Force.

As for the finale, surprisingly, I wasn't too bothered we didn't see any deaths - I didn't feel it was necessary. I presumed that some heroes probably would have bought it, though their deaths would have had so little relevance to show in such a compact story it would just be distracting. If the finale had a three part nature akin to Starcrossed, I'd say yes, some hero deaths would have been a shocking and interesting event, but on the whole not imperative.

The only reason I feel the Flash should have died is simply it just felt right to me.. I was half expected this to be a decent sacrifice for this JLU ignored character; as if his MIA somehow was justified by this supreme sacrifice. But that's just me. It didn't bother me too much he didn't, but I think that would have been such a dramatically charged event. It would have been nice to have had the question of making such speeds again - as mentioned in the episode.

[DisneyBoy]

If he had accidentally killed a teammate, it would have really clouded the entire issue.

The issue was clouded anyway. He destroys Lexor City, beats the puddin' out of Shazam and Capt Atom, and admits he's responsible for the canon that destroyed Cadmus. Him killing Capt Atom unintentionally would have been a really interesting twist, and might have propelled the writing in a new direction. Besides, it wasn't like the writing was so tight on Cadmus that there weren't alternate motives to everything...so much so that in the end, thinking about what was being done intentionally or not would give you a headache.

[tjguitar]

Didn't Amazo kill some heroes on the way down to Earth? He cut one of them in half!

[SuperBat]

The issue was clouded anyway. He destroys Lexor City, beats the puddin' out of Shazam and Capt Atom, and admits he's responsible for the canon that destroyed Cadmus. Him killing Capt Atom unintentionally would have been a really interesting twist, and might have propelled the writing in a new direction. Besides, it wasn't like the writing was so tight on Cadmus that there weren't alternate motives to everything...so much so that in the end, thinking about what was being done intentionally or not would give you a headache.
I'd say that destroying an empty city, in a fit of impatient rage to save thousands, is colossally less questionable than killing a friend, albeit accidentally, to save another. I agree with Toddman. Killing Captain Atom would've been a dramatic twist, but it would've ended up a horrible mess. (Not to mention heartwrenching, disturbing, and frustrating.)

[SuperBat]

Didn't Amazo kill some heroes on the way down to Earth? He cut one of them in half!
That was Red Tornado, the only casualty in the episode. But he's an android, and he appears in later eps. So J'onn's team had obviously rebuilt him.

[theRedDeath]

The only time I felt it would have been good for a character to die in JLU was Flash at the end of "Divided We Fall".

It would have been such a great death, and would have had a HUGE impact on the rest of the team. That the least serious member of the team gave his life to save them all.

It would have also doubled the idea that Cadmus was wrong, having Flash die but the League still remain good despite of it.

And what a season finale it would have been. My god, it would have been heartbreaking and profound and so powerful. Superman's speach at the end where they decide to keep the JL going would have meant so much more and been even more emotional.

It really would have been great.

And then heck, they could have just brought him back in the thrid season, essentially doing what they did in the last moments of 'Divided We Fall' in it's own episode. Maybe even taking place IN the speed force, where Green Lantern gets taken to it somehow and emmotionally reunites with his friend. That would make great television right there.

Oh well.

---

[Batlaw]

I dont know if there "should" have been Nec. but it couldve been a strong added element somewhere along the way. I think Vigilante couldve / wouldve been a good choice for some reason? Vixen couldve been good too towards the end and wouldve offered some resolution to the love triangle / future thing. But I dont think we're Nec. missing anything buy not having had someone die.

[Wolf Boy2]

I'd say that destroying an empty city, in a fit of impatient rage to save thousands, is colossally less questionable than killing a friend, albeit accidentally, to save another. I agree with Toddman. Killing Captain Atom would've been a dramatic twist, but it would've ended up a horrible mess. (Not to mention heartwrenching, disturbing, and frustrating.)
There was an episode of the radio show Gunsmoke back in the 1950s, called "Coward." In that episode, a man is out to kill the hero of the show, US Marshal, Matt Dillon. He's too much of a coward to confront Dillon, so he spreads rumors instead to incite random townspeople to try and kill Dillon.

Marshal Dillon gets really jumpy from all the attacks. One night he sees a guy walking by outside his office with a rifle. He yells, "Drop the rifle!" but the guy refuses, so Dillon shoots him in the chest. As the man lay dying in Dillon's arms, Dillon finds out that he was an innocent man just trying to find his horse.

Marshal Dillon ultimately figured out what was going on and confronted the coward. When Dillon tried to arrest him, the Coward attempted to incite Dillon to kill him. However, Dillon refused to kill the Coward, knowing that the guy wanted to die, and that having to live with the reputation of being a coward was a fate worse than death.

I think a story like this could've been done with Superman, Captain Atom and Luthor. I know it never could've happened on JLU ... but it would be a damn good elseworlds story.

[akomoron]

I actually though Captain Atom was dead when he blew up in 'Initiation'. I was a little disappointed that they brought him back; it would have really set the tone for the darker season that followed.

But then again, I liked Captain Atom's conflict with the more impulsive members of the League, so I'm glad he came back. Wish I could have seen him interact with more impulsive Leaguers though (teaming him up with Booster Gold would have been so much fun).

I think characters deaths work when drama and emotion can be brought out of it not just from the death itself, but from the aftermath. As SuperBat said, if someone was to die in JLU, I would have liked to be mid season to give some dramatic weight to the final showdown.

i agree scb. how many near deaths has capt. atom had? it seemed like they focused heavily on him from initiation all the way to panic in the sky. then they unceremoniously dropped him in jlu season 3. thus i think he should have either died in initiation or in supermans hands. it would've set the tone for jlu that no one (except the big 3) are really sure of survival.

[Wolf Boy2]

i agree scb. how many near deaths has capt. atom had? it seemed like they focused heavily on him from initiation all the way to panic in the sky. then they unceremoniously dropped him in jlu season 3. thus i think he should have either died in initiation or in supermans hands. it would've set the tone for jlu that no one (except the big 3) are really sure of survival.
Change "big 3" to "original 7" and we agree for once.:anime:

[S.C.B]

So J'onn's team had obviously rebuilt him.

Y'know, I keep on hearing references to J'onn's team in JLU. I would've loved an episode focusing on J'onn and his special squad of Watchtower workers. Like a miniature League within the League.

As for Flash dying, I think it would have really worked, if the creative team knew they were coming back for a third season. But considering that 'Divided We Fall' could have been the end of all things, I'm glad he came back at the end of the episode.

[Harvey Two Face]

You know I think the only reason they don't have any deaths is because it's a kids show basically and they have to abide by the censorships, but it would be interesting though to knock a character off or two.

[Bones Justice]

I don't think they should have had any deaths unless they were planning on killing off a major character. To have a minor or lesser known hero die just for dramatic effect wouldn't have worked. At least, not for me, because I don't really know most of the minor heroes in the League.

Of course, if it was a minor hero that was featured in several episodes, that could have had a great effect on me. For example, what if Luthor had killed The Question when The Question tried to kill him? That would have been a major bombshell to me. But I'm glad they didn't kill off The Question because he's one of my favorites. :sweat:

I'm also glad that they didn't kill off The Flash in Divided We Fall. If they had done that, we never would have gotten the brilliance that was The Great Brain Robbery! And who can say they didn't love that episode? That's like saying that you don't like bacon! :D

[Wolf Boy2]

You know I think the only reason they don't have any deaths is because it's a kids show basically and they have to abide by the censorships, but it would be interesting though to knock a character off or two.
Nope. It's because DC comics believes that killing their heroes on TV makes them less marketable.

IDK why, since DC kills them all the time... but that's the rules.

If you'll notice, JL/JLU pretty much slaughtered (albiet off-screen) anyone NOT under DC liscense. S:TAS also killed a lot of non-liscensed characters.

As b.t. pointed out, DC would not have allowed them to kill Black Manta. But Devil Ray was fair game. Notice that almost every villian death (except for Devil Ray, who got shot in the chest and subsequentely electricuted) was one that "could" be undone. Luthor and Darkseid, the biggest heavy hitters in the DC universe, were "possibly" killed, but the door was left wide open for their return. That was due to DC's rules. No child would be traumatized by seeing Luthor or Darksied die.

Clayface died in B:TAS... but he was not the DC comics version of Clayface. Superman, Batman, Batgirl, Gordon and Bane were all "killed", but only in hypothetical dream situations. Joker was killed, but only because Frank Miller and Tim Burton had already broken the "Joker cannot die before Batman rule" that existed in the 70s and 80s.


EDIT: Transfomers: The Movie keeps getting brought up, because it seems to stand as the ultimate example of killing heroes in American animation. I thought I'd point out that they only killed Transformers that Hasbro would no longer be manufacturing. Those guys were fair game to kill because no one wanted to market them any more. But do you really think DC would ever stop marketing Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash or Green Lantern? I don't think so!

[DisneyBoy]

First up, I really need to say it: Not killing off characters simply because they're the audience's "favorite" should never be a factor in writing. Sometimes character death can open a show up to new things, and flesh out characters in a way that's far more meaningful. To not consider that simply because a character is liked is foolish on the part of a writer. Everything's possible.

And then heck, they could have just brought him back in the thrid season, essentially doing what they did in the last moments of 'Divided We Fall' in it's own episode. Maybe even taking place IN the speed force, where Green Lantern gets taken to it somehow and emmotionally reunites with his friend. That would make great television right there.

I think I might agree there, especially because J'onn "telepathically sensing him" 2 seconds later was extremely irritating. First off, we know J'onn's a telepath - don't have him explain it to the audience that he is through his dialogue, especially during the "last" episode of the series. Secondly, it was far too quick and sudden and predictable. Just like the "no people injured by giant death ray" line. Give me a break!

That said, the ending to the episode would have been significantly different. If they'd tried for the "Yay Justice League" crowd scene, I wouldn't have appreciated it after Wally's death.

The bottom line is that the producers don't have the okay with DC to kill off their main characters. That's why Barbara didn't die, and neither would the Flash. But I really like the idea of having a Speed Force episode in which he comes back. The risk there though is that the writers would take it into a "Return of Superman/sci fi" direction that would be really silly.

[Wolf Boy2]

Hey, I'm not complaining too much. Ideas that b.t. didn't use are ideas for me to use in the future!:anime:

[Arrakhat]

What about all of the LoD members who were bumped off in "Alive?" What makes that OK? Is it:

a) that they're all villains anyway, or
b) that the crew decided to go crazy since the show was as good as over anyway and DC just decided to humor them?

Or was it something else? Seriously, how did they get away with so many deaths? I loved it, but this seems to go against DC comics' usual rules.

[Aldrius]

Transfomers: The Movie keeps getting brought up, because it seems to stand as the ultimate example of killing heroes in American animation. I thought I'd point out that they only killed Transformers that Hasbro would no longer be manufacturing. Those guys were fair game to kill because no one wanted to market them any more. But do you really think DC would ever stop marketing Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash or Green Lantern? I don't think so!

Personally I think Reboot is the optimum example of if not main characters dying, then at the very least the series that evolved the most from season 1 episode 1 to the last episode in season 4.

[Wolf Boy2]

What about all of the LoD members who were bumped off in "Alive?" What makes that OK? Is it:

a) that they're all villains anyway, or
b) that the crew decided to go crazy since the show was as good as over anyway and DC just decided to humor them?

Or was it something else? Seriously, how did they get away with so many deaths? I loved it, but this seems to go against DC comics' usual rules.
Because they all "could" have survived. It's a stretch... but if Clayface could be brought back, so could they. The only actually death in JLU was Devil Ray, who got shot in the chest and then fried. Galatea is "dead" in a retroactive sense because she wasn't used later. Same with Plastique in "Task Force X." However, b.t. and crew originally said that Galatea survived and would be used later.

Joker was killed in ROTJ, but ROTJ took place in a "future" setting, like "Dark Knight Returns", disconnected from the "status quo" Batman present.

If "censorship" was the reason why no one died, than they wouldn't have been allowed to kill ancient Egyptian Katar, John and Shayera. That one scene contained sex, alcohol and murder. Earlier in the episode John had his arm broken. There was pretty much no censorship.

[SuperBat]

There was an episode of the radio show Gunsmoke back in the 1950s, called "Coward." In that episode, a man is out to kill the hero of the show, US Marshal, Matt Dillon. He's too much of a coward to confront Dillon, so he spreads rumors instead to incite random townspeople to try and kill Dillon.

Marshal Dillon gets really jumpy from all the attacks. One night he sees a guy walking by outside his office with a rifle. He yells, "Drop the rifle!" but the guy refuses, so Dillon shoots him in the chest. As the man lay dying in Dillon's arms, Dillon finds out that he was an innocent man just trying to find his horse.

Marshal Dillon ultimately figured out what was going on and confronted the coward. When Dillon tried to arrest him, the Coward attempted to incite Dillon to kill him. However, Dillon refused to kill the Coward, knowing that the guy wanted to die, and that having to live with the reputation of being a coward was a fate worse than death.

I think a story like this could've been done with Superman, Captain Atom and Luthor. I know it never could've happened on JLU ... but it would be a damn good elseworlds story.
Nice story. :anime: But one difference comes from the Old West setting, and the fact that the man was still a stranger. For starters, old Western justice is quite different from ours today, as well as the results and consequences of such an act. It would've come off pretty poorly in today's cynical society, and Superman's reputation couldn't have been saved as it was in "Divided We Fall."

However, the idea of Superman killing an innocent stranger is starting to appeal to me. It would have to be a vastly different scenario, since Clark would have very little reason to be jumpy. But it would make for good character development.

[FunTurtle]

I sure Shifter killed those watchtower workers in Panic in the Sky...and almost everyone died in Once and Future Thing: Time Warped...yeah it never really happened but it was still fun to see Static die or get sucked into that light...and then Terry got ripped in two. That was nuts.

[HaagenDas]

Superman killing Captain Marvel

Darkseid killing Lois Lane

When we really think about it, the end of DCAU could also be a good point to mark the end of Wonder Woman. She is not featured in JLU Beyond (due to legal issues at the time) and her being stand alone hardly works. Having her sacrifice herself would really bode well.

Though, WW dying in the Appocalypse of 09 would bode well too. It could also mark the division of why Superman and Batman grow apart...the only 2 men WW really ever admires.