jlu: portrayal of female sexuality

[akomoron]

the women on jlu are portrayed as being sexually aggressive, often pursuing the men (supergirl copping a feel with brainy, giganta kissing flash out of nowhere in destroyer, sha sadly trying to seduce gl in the elevator in shadow of a hawk, huntress making the first move with question on double date...). those behaviors are questionable/debatable. but what's definitely offensive is the way the "writers" depicted female sexuality in a very demeaning, sexist way. examples:

fire: i love her chemistry with flash! i thought after arrow/canary, they were my next fave pairing. its too bad they, along with arrow/canary were underdeveloped (but thats another post). but i found it disturbing when fire had to put her cleavage in wally's eye level, basically in his face in i am legion. in the comics fire is a swimsuit model. its safe to assume on jlu she still has that background so shes used to wearing a lot less than her costume. but still it seemed like a cheap joke on the part of the "writers" to do that.

shayera: for someone so full of herself, it SEEMED like a major lapse in judgment for her to sleep with hawkman on their first date after they just met. how slutty! yes it takes 2 to tango so hawkman is just as culpable. but consider shas egyptian history. was it really appropriate to show sha and egyptian gl murdered in bed? i dont think there's anything implied there. they were obviously cavorting before they were poisoned. but then again i guess shas destined to be a tramp considering how egyptian sha had an affair with her husbands best friend. once a dead tramp, always a dead tramp.

wonderwoman: given her royal upbringing and sense of pride/self-worth, it was completely out of character for her to put atom in her cleavage! i bet the fanboys went wild with laughter after that scene but it was very cheap and obviously unnecessary. after ww said she needs both hands, the logical place to put atom was in her headpiece. but the horny "writers" had to put atom in between her breasts! nothing implied there. it was in horrible taste to do that and i cant believe they tried to get a "wonderbra" joke in that episode.

black canary: did she really have to use her looks to get arrow to help her with wildcat? yes their wrestling match was to show the sexual attraction boiling between the two. but its another showcase of powerful women resorting to their looks to get what they want.

vixen: although her offenses compared to the others are minor, did she really have to pose so seductively on the watchtower in hunters moon? the woman was practically throwing herself at gl, who was already/and still is her man.

tala: she was such a groupie! first shes going bananas for grodd. then lex is in charge and shes throwing herself at him. then she frees grodd and proclaims hes her man. power must be such an aphrodisiac for this chick! yes wally did sleep with her while he was lex, so that was dumb on his part. he was playing along as lex. but he couldve said no to tala. she wouldnt have raped him if he said no, so that was terrible on wallys part. but the way tala was throwing herself between grodd and lex made sha look like a prude!

the list goes on and on with the double entendres and questionable scenes/dialogues with sexual undertones. but why did the puerile "writers" feel the need to reduce these powerful women to a pathetic stereotype? they were objectified for comedic/dramatic purposes, but objectified nonetheless! i dont think any of the men were treated similarly. to debase women, especially out of fun, is very misogynist!

[James]

How can they be misogynistic in concept, yet also be independent, humorous, diverse and dynamic? Look at Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Shayera, Catwoman, Morgaine Le Fey.

The visuals may look overly sexy, but that's a model stylistic akin to the muscles on the men.

The characters occasionally didn't get rich roles by JLU because there were so many characters. When writing a show with hundreds of different characters, humour is often used to play them out rather than anything else, given humour is fast and hits the mark, and given if you don't have any time for anything else, they would otherwise simply be plot pieces.

If you don't like the humor fine, but this humor worked for me, and I'm not a misogynist in any way. I would say it's humor that fitted the teen market it was aimed at.

As for your remarks about "tramps" and the ilk, I think it's your own attitude that you are misplacing on the writers.

You have a tendency to write as if what you say is fact. It's not lazy writing from what I can see - these are professional writers, who write to a show mandate and for all intent and purposes do a fine job. I'm not seeing any issue here beyond the one you appear to be trying to create.

Bottomline, is these are characters written for a male market and quite honestly, while there is the occasional bit of male fantasy, the females have a positive role to play in DCAU which mirrors the independence, mistakes and successes the female gender can make in real life.

[The Weed Of Cri]

the women on jlu are portrayed as being sexually aggressive, often pursuing the men (supergirl copping a feel with brainy, giganta kissing flash out of nowhere in destroyer, sha sadly trying to seduce gl in the elevator in shadow of a hawk, huntress making the first move with question on double date...). those behaviors are questionable/debatable. but what's definitely offensive is the way the "writers" depicted female sexuality in a very demeaning, sexist way.

I think you are overlooking some relevant details that go into the writing and production of these programs, such as the restrictions placed on writers when they have to meet the TV-7 rating. Sexually agressive females are simply less controversial than sexually agressive males because women taking control of the own sexuality is seen as "empowering" (at least to people who work in the television industry), while men who do it are seen as sexual predators.


wonderwoman: given her royal upbringing and sense of pride/self-worth, it was completely out of character for her to put atom in her cleavage! i bet the fanboys went wild with laughter after that scene but it was very cheap and obviously unnecessary. after ww said she needs both hands, the logical place to put atom was in her headpiece. but the horny "writers" had to put atom in between her breasts! nothing implied there. it was in horrible taste to do that and i cant believe they tried to get a "wonderbra" joke in that episode.

Remember, until "Secret Origins", Wonder Woman lived in an all-female community. I doubt if her society had a nudity taboo, and her experience with male sexuality is limited at best. It's quite possible she'd be innocently unaware of the titallating aspect of her choice of "hiding place" for The Atom. What we do know about Diana is this: she is the consummate warrior, more than any other Leaguer including Batman, and she is going to do what it takes to win a battle (her body count in "Destroyer" is a couple orders of magnitude greater than anybody else's), and her judgement will not be impaired by misplaced, and potentially cumbersome, modesty. And placing The Atom in her headband would not have worked because we've seen her head-butt opponents in the past.


tala: she was such a groupie! first shes going bananas for grodd. then lex is in charge and shes throwing herself at him. then she frees grodd and proclaims hes her man. power must be such an aphrodisiac for this chick! yes wally did sleep with her while he was lex, so that was dumb on his part. he was playing along as lex. but he couldve said no to tala. she wouldnt have raped him if he said no, so that was terrible on wallys part. but the way tala was throwing herself between grodd and lex made sha look like a prude!.

The whole point of Tala, from the time the character is introduced, is that she set her sights on being "The Captain's Woman", all the perks of being in charge, but none of the responsibility. The rules are different for her because she's a villian, and is not expected to act like a "good" girl. And rather than depicting her as successful, the writers did a good job of showing her choices led her to nothing but misery: divided loyalties, being mistrusted by all sides, betrayed, tortured, probably killed. The one time she succeeded in getting someone to return her affection with no strings attached, it was an enemy who slipped through her fingers and was lost to her for good. I think Tala's story was a terrific allegory showing that we reap what we sow. What I found coincidentally weird was that both of Grodd's supervillian girlfriends eventually transferred part of their affection to The Flash. What's up with that?

I also think the writers had some remarkably realistic female characterization. When Black Canary got all catty and creeped out watching Huntress make out with The Question, you might call her a hypocrite because she did pretty much the same thing with Green Arrow. Except that practically every woman I've ever known has thought the same way and they don't see it as hypocracy because for them, every case is "different", and it's not the place of us poor men to be bringing things like fairness and balance into the discussion at such times.

[SuperBat]

Remember, until "Secret Origins", Wonder Woman lived in an all-female community. I doubt if her society had a nudity taboo, and her experience with male sexuality is limited at best. It's quite possible she'd be innocently unaware of the titallating aspect of her choice of "hiding place" for The Atom. What we do know about Diana is this: she is the consummate warrior, more than any other Leaguer including Batman, and she is going to do what it takes to win a battle (her body count in "Destroyer" is a couple orders of magnitude greater than anybody else's), and her judgement will not be impaired by misplaced, and potentially cumbersome, modesty.
True, and her "What's wrong with the way I dress?!" from "Eclipsed" comes to mind. :yawn:

[Wolf Boy2]

the women on jlu are portrayed as being sexually aggressive, often pursuing the men
Oh, so there's nothing wrong with Bruce pinning Andrea to the ground and then kissing here out of the blue in the karate garden scene of MOTP? That was a clear reference to sexual bondage! OMG, Bruce is a rapist!:p

Or what about Bruce passionately kissing Catwoman in "Chase Me" -- only to handcuff her to a fence? Funny how its only bad when the women do it.


but what's definitely offensive is the way the "writers" depicted female sexuality in a very demeaning, sexist way.
Putting "writers" in quotes was demeaning and unesscessary.


fire: i love her chemistry with flash! i thought after arrow/canary, they were my next fave pairing. its too bad they, along with arrow/canary were underdeveloped (but thats another post). but i found it disturbing when fire had to put her cleavage in wally's eye level, basically in his face in i am legion. in the comics fire is a swimsuit model. its safe to assume on jlu she still has that background so shes used to wearing a lot less than her costume. but still it seemed like a cheap joke on the part of the "writers" to do that.
Actually the scence was to demonstrate that Wally, who acts like a chavanistic womanizer on the surface is actually quite girl-shy.


shayera: for someone so full of herself, it SEEMED like a major lapse in judgment for her to sleep with hawkman on their first date after they just met. how slutty! yes it takes 2 to tango so hawkman is just as culpable. but consider shas egyptian history. was it really appropriate to show sha and egyptian gl murdered in bed? i dont think there's anything implied there. they were obviously cavorting before they were poisoned. but then again i guess shas destined to be a tramp considering how egyptian sha had an affair with her husbands best friend. once a dead tramp, always a dead tramp.
Another Shayera rant...? In the words of Green Arrow, "Learn a new tune already!"


wonderwoman: given her royal upbringing and sense of pride/self-worth, it was completely out of character for her to put atom in her cleavage! i bet the fanboys went wild with laughter after that scene but it was very cheap and obviously unnecessary. after ww said she needs both hands, the logical place to put atom was in her headpiece. but the horny "writers" had to put atom in between her breasts! nothing implied there. it was in horrible taste to do that and i cant believe they tried to get a "wonderbra" joke in that episode.
Dude! I have so got to make an avatar out of that scene!


black canary: did she really have to use her looks to get arrow to help her with wildcat? yes their wrestling match was to show the sexual attraction boiling between the two. but its another showcase of powerful women resorting to their looks to get what they want.
Yeah... and men never do this...

Did you ever see TNBA's "Chemistry"? Poison Ivy used sexy plant men to seduce rich women into marriage.


vixen: although her offenses compared to the others are minor, did she really have to pose so seductively on the watchtower in hunters moon? the woman was practically throwing herself at gl, who was already/and still is her man.
And no one should ever act provacatively towards the man they're in a relationship with, right? Dude, if she were "throwing herself" at some stranger, that would be slutty. But she and GL were an exclusive item! Geeze... this is the 2000s, get out of the Victorian Era.


tala: she was such a groupie! first shes going bananas for grodd. then lex is in charge and shes throwing herself at him. then she frees grodd and proclaims hes her man. power must be such an aphrodisiac for this chick! yes wally did sleep with her while he was lex, so that was dumb on his part. he was playing along as lex. but he couldve said no to tala. she wouldnt have raped him if he said no, so that was terrible on wallys part. but the way tala was throwing herself between grodd and lex made sha look like a prude!
Why was it dumb, LOL? If Tala had STDs she would've given them to Luthor, not Wally. Pooncrabs are a great revenge for the guy who tried to nuke the world.


the list goes on and on with the double entendres and questionable scenes/dialogues with sexual undertones. but why did the puerile "writers" feel the need to reduce these powerful women to a pathetic stereotype? they were objectified for comedic/dramatic purposes, but objectified nonetheless! i dont think any of the men were treated similarly. to debase women, especially out of fun, is very misogynist!
The men were treated VERY similarly. I never noticed it because I am a guy, but when by best friend (a girl) watched the episodes, she was as "titilated" (to use your term) by the over-abundant male sexuality as guys were by the female sexuality. TNBA's episode "Mean Seasons" had bad guys that looked like the Chippendales for pity's sake.

Just look at the JLU guys. They're freaking GODS, with massive, broad shoulders and huge chests, bulging biceps ... and the occasional crotch-costume bulge. They can get women whenever they want. Look at all the sex that Batman and Green Lantern alone have gotten!

[The Guitar Slayer]

Sexually agressive females are simply less controversial than sexually agressive males because women taking control of the own sexuality is seen as "empowering" (at least to people who work in the television industry), while men who do it are seen as sexual predators.

Anthropologically, females are not like guys in the ways they are sexually aggressive. Guys are very much...err...crotch first when it comes to being aggressive -- very tactile (in a slapworthy fashion), a tendency to talk down to women they're trying to get, and territorial if there are other men. While women do experience jealousy and the need to touch, it's decidedly less up front and sexual than when a guy does it. Catfights are fun to watch for boys, but it's also the rarity versus the common bar brawl between two men over a woman that makes them more interesting to watch.



What I found coincidentally weird was that both of Grodd's supervillian girlfriends eventually transferred part of their affection to The Flash. What's up with that?

Despite Flash's debated lapse of judgment in his dealings with Tala, I think both women figured out that he was in Lex's body when Lex was really nice. That sort of brings up the idea to them that they don't have to be treated like someone's possession in order to have a relationship or status, even in this odd, super-hero/super-villain society. Don't forget how Flash deals with all his enemies, as in Flash and Substance. He's not one to hold a grudge or just be like "Hmmph, villains." He's most likely to be "Are you a good witch or a bad witch? Bad? Bummer. I'm really sorry but..." among the other JL'ers.


I also think the writers had some remarkably realistic female characterization. When Black Canary got all catty and creeped out watching Huntress make out with The Question, you might call her a hypocrite because she did pretty much the same thing with Green Arrow.

Green Arrow is a cute, witty blonde. The Question has no face, wears a tin foil hat, and is convinced of government conspiracies. He's paranoid. Most girls would have concern if someone who already has vengeance issue gets with a guy like that.

[Wolf Boy2]

Green Arrow is a cute, witty blonde. The Question has no face, wears a tin foil hat, and is convinced of government conspiracies. He's paranoid. Most girls would have concern if someone who already has vengeance issue gets with a guy like that.
What's wrong with Question's hat? I wear an identical hat (but mine is gray). Those are very cool. In BTAS Bruce Wayne wore one. Besides, Huntress is hotter than Canary.

Also... no face at all is better than a beard from the 1300s.

[The Guitar Slayer]

What's wrong with Question's hat? I wear an identical hat (but mine is gray). Those are very cool. In BTAS Bruce Wayne wore one.

"Tin foil hat" is a term to reference people are convinced that wearing tin foil on their heads to block out government radio waves will prevent mind control by aforementioned government entities.... Essentially -- the Question in a nutshell.


Also... no face at all is better than a beard from the 1300s.

Ask any girl who likes a Renaissance Faire, and she'll tell you the beard is FTW. :D

[Aldrius]

What's wrong with Question's hat? I wear an identical hat (but mine is gray).

That is SO cool.

Eh. Tala was supposed to be a slut. That was the whole genesis of her character. She's like Lady Macbeth as James pointed out. She uses her husband/boyfriend to achieve all the lofty goals of power she wants.

As for the others... they're just being... women. Vixen has a very playful personality, clearly that would translate into her sexuality. Shayera slept with someone on the first date... it wasn't like she raped him. Wonder Woman stuck him in a soft and cushy place, instead of her tangly hair where he could fall out! Black Canary using her sexuality to get Olly to do something... eh... kinda slutty I guess. I'll give you that one. And Fire has big breasts. =x They're gonna get in the way sometimes.

[Azrael24]

Well i actually agree with the author, akomoron. women were really kind of disrespected, always acting like sluts. None of them really showed any other ways of actually convincing someone without sexuality. but i'm also guilty of having laughed in i am legion at the fire scene :eek:.

[pixellj]

Without going point for point, I believe that the females were actually treated with a degree of respect. They were portrayed as confident, agressive individuals unashamed of their sexuality. In other words, they were acting equal to men. Turns out they have different parts on the chassis. I certainly don't think DCAU is anywhere near the degree of your average comic book (Ed Benes amd Al Rio jump to mind). It's part and parcel with the genre.

A couple examples I haven't seen mentioned about men behaving similarily include GA joining the JLU only after he checked out BC puting her boots on, and Booster Gold helping the scientist (Greastest story Never told I think it's called) while trying to pick her up.

[Wolf Boy2]

Shayera slept with someone on the first date... it wasn't like she raped him.
Yeah, it's funny to me how everyone blames Shayera... no one cares that Carter Hall also had sex on the first date!:D

People are lodged in this mindset that the women is the "gatekeeper" that allows the man in or tells him to stay out. No one wants to blame the GUY. Really, faulting Shayera for having sex is a very sexist attitude. No one EVER has sex alone (well... you know what I mean).

Besides, you wanna talk sexual agressor... Carter Hall was a creepy-ass STALKER. I think the proper reaction to "Shadow of the Hawk" is "OMG he is creepy" not "OMG Shayera got busy on the first date."


A couple examples I haven't seen mentioned about men behaving similarily include GA joining the JLU only after he checked out BC puting her boots on, and Booster Gold helping the scientist (Greastest story Never told I think it's called) while trying to pick her up.
The worst male chavenist was Luthor. In S:TAS, he was out on a yaght with some chick in a bikini, and Metallo shows up and throws her over the boat into shark infested water (her death was obvious). Luthor didn't even care! When Superman showed up, he never said "Quick, Superman, save my girlfriend!" Oh sure, he let Superman carry him to shore... but he just let the girl die.

Luthor was also involved with both Lois and Lana... then tried to kill both of them! In JLU he sleeps with Tala.... then kills her!

[Cortez2301]

You know there was this part in the episode where carter Hall met Shaera and introduced himself later as Hawkman.He was taking her hand and (referring to the object which shows their ancient history) he said if you touch it you will see the truth or something like that and then she said "Hands off".In my head it was so funny because I thought of it in a different way.

[akomoron]

How can they be misogynistic in concept, yet also be independent, humorous, diverse and dynamic? Look at Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Shayera, Catwoman, Morgaine Le Fey.

The visuals may look overly sexy, but that's a model stylistic akin to the muscles on the men.

The characters occasionally didn't get rich roles by JLU because there were so many characters. When writing a show with hundreds of different characters, humour is often used to play them out rather than anything else, given humour is fast and hits the mark, and given if you don't have any time for anything else, they would otherwise simply be plot pieces.

If you don't like the humor fine, but this humor worked for me, and I'm not a misogynist in any way. I would say it's humor that fitted the teen market it was aimed at.

As for your remarks about "tramps" and the ilk, I think it's your own attitude that you are misplacing on the writers.

You have a tendency to write as if what you say is fact. It's not lazy writing from what I can see - these are professional writers, who write to a show mandate and for all intent and purposes do a fine job. I'm not seeing any issue here beyond the one you appear to be trying to create.

Bottomline, is these are characters written for a male market and quite honestly, while there is the occasional bit of male fantasy, the females have a positive role to play in DCAU which mirrors the independence, mistakes and successes the female gender can make in real life.

ok time to answer my critics. once again im being accused of wiritng things as fact when im writing my opinion or "misplacing my attitude on the writers". anyway............

i believe some posted that the writers said they aimed this show at children to 12 year olds not teens. therefore i think its highly inappropriate to have characters having affairs, practically shoving their cleavage in mens faces and the like. if these female characterizations are from the "male market/male fantasy" then there has to be a serious paradigm shift.

I think you are overlooking some relevant details that go into the writing and production of these programs, such as the restrictions placed on writers when they have to meet the TV-7 rating. Sexually agressive females are simply less controversial than sexually agressive males because women taking control of the own sexuality is seen as "empowering" (at least to people who work in the television industry), while men who do it are seen as sexual predators.

some of wally's interactions were flirtatious and considerably sexually aggressive (the "bunnies" in harv hickmans house, ww, fire). in intitation arrow blatantly oggled at canary. he even implied of having a sexual dream involving canary to underage supergirl! these are considerbaly sexually aggressive behavior. i dont think they were considered to be sexual predators.

Remember, until "Secret Origins", Wonder Woman lived in an all-female community. I doubt if her society had a nudity taboo, and her experience with male sexuality is limited at best. It's quite possible she'd be innocently unaware of the titallating aspect of her choice of "hiding place" for The Atom.

Excuse me but in Secret Origins alone she was already hit on by the Flash! Her first day on patriarchs land she clearly was aware of the power of her beauty. Throughout jl/jlu i think no one has been hit on more or complimented for her looks than ww. the flash, bats, harv hickman, longshadow, agent farraday, the list goes on and on. therefore she would naturally be aware that putting atom in her cleavage of all places is highly inappropriate and would certainly arouse atom! as for tala n shayera if they're sluts then they're sluts. fine. but majority of the women should have been portrayed more intelligently, especially a goddess! ww should have put atom in her headpiece and then not headbutt those dark hear spiders. ww is not a bimbo. it was completely out of character. the writers only did that for a sick male fantasy joke.

Oh, so there's nothing wrong with Bruce pinning Andrea to the ground and then kissing here out of the blue in the karate garden scene of MOTP? That was a clear reference to sexual bondage! OMG, Bruce is a rapist!:p

Or what about Bruce passionately kissing Catwoman in "Chase Me" -- only to handcuff her to a fence? Funny how its only bad when the women do it.

I didnt watch those episodes and the poison ivy ones. so no comment. I could only comment if I watched them and then formed an informed opinion.

Actually the scence was to demonstrate that Wally, who acts like a chavanistic womanizer on the surface is actually quite girl-shy.

we already knew wally was girl-shy. in the metrotower he couldnt even approach fire, let alone tell her they have a mission. therefore it was an unneccessary joke and very demeaning to have her practically shove her breasts in his face.

Another Shayera rant...? In the words of Green Arrow, "Learn a new tune already!"

yep shes a slut. no defense for her behavior.

Dude! I have so got to make an avatar out of that scene!

if you think women humiliating themselves for a male fantasy then to each his own. the more i post here the more i realize the difference between us is a chasm. ps dont forget not to use oriental when talking about asians again ok. :)

Just look at the JLU guys. They're freaking GODS, with massive, broad shoulders and huge chests, bulging biceps ... and the occasional crotch-costume bulge. They can get women whenever they want. Look at all the sex that Batman and Green Lantern alone have gotten!

i NEVER noticed a crotch costume bulge but maybe you have a keen eye for many things in jl/jlu. (i'm not implying anything about you). as for the men it takes 2 to tango. yes bats has gotten laid a lot but the men never behaved IMO in any way to demean themselves in a sexual way towards women. thats the big difference for me.

[BCVM22]

yep shes a slut. no defense for her behavior.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one find the utmost difficulty in placing any sort of value in your words when the summation of your analysis is a statement such as this.

[akomoron]

Well i actually agree with the author, akomoron. women were really kind of disrespected, always acting like sluts. None of them really showed any other ways of actually convincing someone without sexuality. but i'm also guilty of having laughed in i am legion at the fire scene :eek:.

thank you azrael. short but to the pt. i miss harley quinn's bubbliness.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one find the utmost difficulty in placing any sort of value in your words when the summation of your analysis is a statement such as this.

to each his own. i just call it like i see it.

[Donomark]

I don't think that the JLU chick are portrayed in a sexist way. I think they are portrayed very realistically. I just think that with the amount of huge Sex Innuendo, there's a lot of easy jokes to be made with the kinds of personalities JLU has. Superman and Batman would crack any jokes, but Flash and Terry certainly would. Same goes for women like Barda against Shayera. Besdies, JLU had pretty mature, realistic writing, why not have sex jokes? As long as they're not over the top. Besides, B.T. draws a lot of cheesecake. It would be almost out of his style for a show he's the Exec. Producer of not to have kind of risque humor in it.

[Antiyonder]

I'd say they get more dignity than girls/women from a family sitcom. Smart as opposed to being ditzy. And while some of them have a tough personality, they're a lot more likable than the controlling wives that you'd see on a family sitcom (Claire Huxtable comes to mind).

[Sue]

I had no problem with the girls being more forward. Hell, being a superhero must be a trying job, and if Batman and Flash can have their fun, why can't the other half? :D True, I thought HG sleeping with Carter was odd given that 1) they just met and 2) everyone's suspicions about him, but I couldn't hold it against her ;) He's a handsome guy, and they're both big kids, so what?

[pixellj]

She's also not human. Given that on the show, she's almost Klingon in nature Comfort and Joy comes to mind for this), who's to say that sex on a first date isn't the norm for such an outgoing species? Being a pristine chaste barbarian really doesn't make much sense character wise.

I also personally find it funny that some people refer to woman who have sex on a first date as 'sluts', while typically, males are seen as 'studs'. Just who are these guys supposed to have sex with anyways?

I also didn't mention Lex, etc, because he's a villain. Of course villains will behave terribly, they're villains after all :). But, I guess if we want to swing that way, I imagine Morgain Le Fay would be seen as a model woman, someone who knows her place as a mother and provider, someone who's not interested in a career, except for caring for her son. Or Granny Goodness, another lady not obsessed with looks, who cares so deeply for the safety of others she will provide a safe home so bad people cannot hurt those such as Mr. Miracle. Holding him against his will is surely because mother knows best.

[IDistractedYou]

As I believe was stated in one of your other threads all the DCAU has sexual innuendo/off colour humor the key is that it is usually written in a style that most children would not understand. But here's my response to some of the points you throw out:

1) Atom's Hiding Place- My first thought besides a little giggle was oh well if she was in his hair he might blow out while she's running/flying etc. Being the size of an action figure doesn't exactly give one a whole lot of weight for wind resistance.

2) Black Canary and Green Arrow- I didn't see anything wrong or overly-sexual in their relationship. As far as Canary using her looks to get what she wants have you looked at her costume? Besides these women are no shrinking violets, and whats wrong with them using every weapon at their disposal to get what they want. Its not as if any of the men have never used their looks to get their way.

[Arrakhat]

Dude! I have so got to make an avatar out of that scene!

if you think women humiliating themselves for a male fantasy then to each his own. the more i post here the more i realize the difference between us is a chasm. ps dont forget not to use oriental when talking about asians again ok. :)
I'm not quite sure where this statement comes from. Which woman is humiliating herself? Wonder Woman? She hardly seems to have lost any pride or self-respect. As for a "male fantasy," that's still your opinion. My sister thought that the scene when Wonder Woman put Atom in her cleavage was hilarious.

Let me just say that your views on what is "sexually aggressive" are a bit odd. Huntress kissing Question after he goes through tons of trouble for her due to his attraction to her is sexual aggression? Mutual attraction seems more likely. Giganta giving Flash a quick kiss is sexually aggressive? People can show affection for each other without it being aggressive every time. You may be reading too much into all of this.

[Wolf Boy2]

I'm not quite sure where this statement comes from. Which woman is humiliating herself? Wonder Woman? She hardly seems to have lost any pride or self-respect. As for a "male fantasy," that's still your opinion. My sister thought that the scene when Wonder Woman put Atom in her cleavage was hilarious.
The ironic thing is, I never really thought about it until it was brought up here.

I mean, the dang suit has no pockets. Where else was she gonna put him? Besides, he is clearly looking out, not at her breasts. Besides, who is gonna be thinking about breasts when alien spiders are about to destory the whole world? If anything, a real person in Ray's posistion would be thinking something along the lines of "OMG I could fall out and die" than "OMG I'm in her hott and sexy boobs".


Let me just say that your views on what is "sexually aggressive" are a bit odd. Huntress kissing Question after he goes through tons of trouble for her due to his attraction to her is sexual aggression? Mutual attraction seems more likely. Giganta giving Flash a quick kiss is sexually aggressive? People can show affection for each other without it being aggressive every time. You may be reading too much into all of this.
I think he is going on the basic assumption that males are supposed to be agressive, but women are not. Which was the case in the 1950s... but not today.

As a matter of fact, "Legends" even poked fun at that old fashioned mindset, when Black Siren wanted Shayera to help in the kitchen while the men talked.

[Temple Fugate]

i believe some posted that the writers said they aimed this show at children to 12 year olds not teens. therefore i think its highly inappropriate to have characters having affairs, practically shoving their cleavage in mens faces and the like. if these female characterizations are from the "male market/male fantasy" then there has to be a serious paradigm shift.This is a legitimate argument. Frankly, the folks at CN have been incredibly generous when giving the JL/U team leeway to make these kinds of jokes. b.t. and his team have said several times they are aware that a lot of their fanbase has grown up with their past shows dating back to 1992 and BTAS, so the sexual innuendos were included mostly to cater to that mature audience. However, IMO, those innuendos would not easily be picked up by children of the show's official demographic (9-14). When I was that age I missed plenty of mature jokes like the ones found in JL/U.


I also personally find it funny that some people refer to woman who have sex on a first date as 'sluts', while typically, males are seen as 'studs'. Just who are these guys supposed to have sex with anyways?Along this line, did anyone think that Batman was being a sexual predator when he sneaked into Waller's bathroom? Why aren't we calling the dogs on him too?

About the infamous love square, I think Hawkman was being the stalker/predator for Shayera. He went out of his way to croon her and date her and have sex with her just because he touched a memory device. Is Shayera a slut? I don't think so. Otherwise we probably would have seen some kind of disturbing Aquaman/Dr. Fate/AMAZO action in "Wake the Dead."

[SuperBat]

i believe some posted that the writers said they aimed this show at children to 12 year olds not teens. therefore i think its highly inappropriate to have characters having affairs, practically shoving their cleavage in mens faces and the like. if these female characterizations are from the "male market/male fantasy" then there has to be a serious paradigm shift.

some of wally's interactions were flirtatious and considerably sexually aggressive (the "bunnies" in harv hickmans house, ww, fire). in intitation arrow blatantly oggled at canary. he even implied of having a sexual dream involving canary to underage supergirl! these are considerbaly sexually aggressive behavior. i dont think they were considered to be sexual predators.
Okay, I'll start by saying that sexual innuendo would never be present if I wrote the show. And I don't think it's necessary to ever discuss a couple's sex life (as cleverly disguised as it may be) in a cartoon that, yes, children are watching. However, the Flash's flirting, Arrow and Canary's attraction... these things don't come off as "sexually aggressive" to me... and I'm a pretty modest person. ;)


Excuse me but in Secret Origins alone she was already hit on by the Flash! Her first day on patriarchs land she clearly was aware of the power of her beauty. Throughout jl/jlu i think no one has been hit on more or complimented for her looks than ww. the flash, bats, harv hickman, longshadow, agent farraday, the list goes on and on. therefore she would naturally be aware that putting atom in her cleavage of all places is highly inappropriate and would certainly arouse atom!
No. I'm sorry, but for the sake of stating my opinion clearly, I'm going to have say outright that I think you're wrong. If anything, the scene I mentioned in "Eclipsed" disproves this. "What's wrong with the way I dress?" You say that she was clearly aware of all this just because men flirted with her? She shouldn't even have been able to define the word flirt! She's been stuck on an island with nothing but men! In all honesty, that should be the recipe for a sexual predator, but she's completely unaware of these feelings and behaviors, until she discovers them for herself.


the writers only did that for a sick male fantasy joke.
Well... yes. In my opinion, it was. But it's hardly an original joke, so I just don't think it deserves so much attention.


ps dont forget not to use oriental when talking about asians again ok. :)
You might stop throwing the word "slut" around before making such a request.


Along this line, did anyone think that Batman was being a sexual predator when he sneaked into Waller's bathroom? Why aren't we calling the dogs on him too?
Uhh... no.

[Aldrius]

Okay, I have to add one more thing:

The show was on at 10:30.

Half an hour before adult swim sometimes.

Adult Swim's first show was/is usually Family Guy or Futurama. Both about 10x as bad as JLU in terms of sexual content.

Why on earth COULDN'T the censors be a bit more leniant? The show was on after most 10 year olds would be in bed. And an 11 year old can handle innuendo...

[maczero]

Besides, who is gonna be thinking about breasts when alien spiders are about to destory the whole world? If anything, a real person in Ray's posistion would be thinking something along the lines of "OMG I could fall out and die" than "OMG I'm in her hott and sexy boobs".Oh, c'mon. You're between breasts the size of a school bus and you wouldn't have a single inappropriate thought?

Seriously, I'm in the Diana has a different concept of modesty camp.

[S.C.B]

Oh, c'mon. You're between breasts the size of a school bus and you wouldn't have a single inappropriate thought?

Didn't Atom have a line that was cut by BS&P? Something like "Just don't take any deep breaths," I think.

[BCVM22]

Didn't Atom have a line that was cut by BS&P? Something like "Just don't take any deep breaths," I think.

I watched the episode yesterday, he said something to the effect of "Just don't breathe in."

EDIT, many hours later: Well damn. Despite having watched the episode mere hours prior to my post, you're right. The line I was thinking of was when Wonder Woman had him in her hand, and Atom utters "Just don't squeeze."

Heh. Squeeze.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Excuse me but in Secret Origins alone she was already hit on by the Flash! Her first day on patriarchs land she clearly was aware of the power of her beauty. Throughout jl/jlu i think no one has been hit on more or complimented for her looks than ww. the flash, bats, harv hickman, longshadow, agent farraday, the list goes on and on. therefore she would naturally be aware that putting atom in her cleavage of all places is highly inappropriate and would certainly arouse atom! as for tala n shayera if they're sluts then they're sluts. fine. but majority of the women should have been portrayed more intelligently, especially a goddess! ww should have put atom in her headpiece and then not headbutt those dark hear spiders. ww is not a bimbo. it was completely out of character. the writers only did that for a sick male fantasy joke.

I wouldn't call "Where have you been all my life?"/"Themyscira" being aware of her beauty. Longshadow could've just admired Wonder Woman because she's considered one of the greatest heroes there is. The only two men Wonder Woman seemed interested in romantically were Batman and Steve Trevor, and those flirtations were hardly seen as sexual on Wonder Woman's part. Her affection for Steve was like a schoolgirl crush.

As for The Atom, like everyone said, the idea of WW putting him where she did didn't even cross her mind as inappropriate. I wouldn't be so sure to say it would arouse Atom, he's a smart, focused man of science, he didn't get distracted at all.

I'm also going to have to argue that Black Canary had mixed feelings the entire time Green Arrow was helping her. She knew he was attracted to her and used that, but at the same time, she wanted to get close to him. Possibly because Wildcat's behavior got her down on men and thought Green Arrow could prove to her that there are good ones out there. Later in the episode, she regrets making Ollie feel used. I'd say if anything, that makes Canary well rounded.

[Shadowmask]

Sexism in the comic-book portrayal of women is certainly a concern that has been voiced, but it's usually brought up in reference to the tendency of so many superheroines/villainesses to wear such skimpy costumes, when most of the men don't. It's not one of those political issues that I worry about a lot, but I can see a legitimate concern with it. As befitting a show based on a comic-book universe, JLU certainly shows examples of this phenomenon.However, skimply costumes are different from portrayals of sexuality. I don't think there's anything wrong with the women on the show being portrayed as sexual beings, when the men certainly are. Akomoron's post, despite being ostensibly concerned with sexism, seems to me to be symptomatic of the vile old double standard in which a man who gets around is a "player," but a woman who does is a "slut."

[Dusty]

the women on jlu are portrayed as being sexually aggressive, often pursuing the men (supergirl copping a feel with brainy, giganta kissing flash out of nowhere in destroyer, sha sadly trying to seduce gl in the elevator in shadow of a hawk, huntress making the first move with question on double date...). those behaviors are questionable/debatable. but what's definitely offensive is the way the "writers" depicted female sexuality in a very demeaning, sexist way. examples:

fire: i love her chemistry with flash! i thought after arrow/canary, they were my next fave pairing. its too bad they, along with arrow/canary were underdeveloped (but thats another post). but i found it disturbing when fire had to put her cleavage in wally's eye level, basically in his face in i am legion. in the comics fire is a swimsuit model. its safe to assume on jlu she still has that background so shes used to wearing a lot less than her costume. but still it seemed like a cheap joke on the part of the "writers" to do that.

shayera: for someone so full of herself, it SEEMED like a major lapse in judgment for her to sleep with hawkman on their first date after they just met. how slutty! yes it takes 2 to tango so hawkman is just as culpable. but consider shas egyptian history. was it really appropriate to show sha and egyptian gl murdered in bed? i dont think there's anything implied there. they were obviously cavorting before they were poisoned. but then again i guess shas destined to be a tramp considering how egyptian sha had an affair with her husbands best friend. once a dead tramp, always a dead tramp.

wonderwoman: given her royal upbringing and sense of pride/self-worth, it was completely out of character for her to put atom in her cleavage! i bet the fanboys went wild with laughter after that scene but it was very cheap and obviously unnecessary. after ww said she needs both hands, the logical place to put atom was in her headpiece. but the horny "writers" had to put atom in between her breasts! nothing implied there. it was in horrible taste to do that and i cant believe they tried to get a "wonderbra" joke in that episode.

black canary: did she really have to use her looks to get arrow to help her with wildcat? yes their wrestling match was to show the sexual attraction boiling between the two. but its another showcase of powerful women resorting to their looks to get what they want.

vixen: although her offenses compared to the others are minor, did she really have to pose so seductively on the watchtower in hunters moon? the woman was practically throwing herself at gl, who was already/and still is her man.

tala: she was such a groupie! first shes going bananas for grodd. then lex is in charge and shes throwing herself at him. then she frees grodd and proclaims hes her man. power must be such an aphrodisiac for this chick! yes wally did sleep with her while he was lex, so that was dumb on his part. he was playing along as lex. but he couldve said no to tala. she wouldnt have raped him if he said no, so that was terrible on wallys part. but the way tala was throwing herself between grodd and lex made sha look like a prude!

the list goes on and on with the double entendres and questionable scenes/dialogues with sexual undertones. but why did the puerile "writers" feel the need to reduce these powerful women to a pathetic stereotype? they were objectified for comedic/dramatic purposes, but objectified nonetheless! i dont think any of the men were treated similarly. to debase women, especially out of fun, is very misogynist!
I think you statment is very true, i think that JLU women were turned way to much into "Desperate Females," i have stated before that this is one of the reasons JLU sank,


D.

[Wolf Boy2]

You guys don't realize that akomoron was a producer on JL/JLU who made many of the early character designs before season 1. Here was akomoron's version of the Justice League:

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2221/justiceleaguenunsjc5.jpg
Batman, Superman, Flash, J'onn, Green Lantern, Wonder Nun and Hawknun.

But when the producers decided not to make a show about nuns, akomoron quit the show out of principle.


However, b.t. like akomoron's designs so much that he went ahead and included them in an episode anyway, "Legends":

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/legends/p1/27.jpg

[akomoron]

You might stop throwing the word "slut" around before making such a request.

your arguements are valid. as are mine. lets just agree to disagree. as for the word "slut" i called sha a slut (a character). i didnt call anyone on this mb a slut. and besides she is a slut. so im just calling her like i see her.

as for oriental that was discussed in another post. although i didnt like wolfboys form of apology or the defense against him, i dropped this already.

[Dusty]

You guys don't realize that akomoron was a producer on JL/JLU who made many of the early character designs before season 1. Here was akomoron's version of the Justice League:

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2221/justiceleaguenunsjc5.jpg
Batman, Superman, Flash, J'onn, Green Lantern, Wonder Nun and Hawknun.

But when the producers decided not to make a show about nuns, akomoron quit the show out of principle.


However, b.t. like akomoron's designs so much that he went ahead and included them in an episode anyway, "Legends":

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/legends/p1/27.jpg
real mature Wolf, classy even, :rolleyes2: :raven:

[MJC]

I always thought the DCAU, especially JLU, had a pretty positive portrayal or female superheroes.

I don't know if people want all the women to be portrayed as prudes or something, but some of you need to get out of the 1930s...

[SuperBat]

You might stop throwing the word "slut" around before making such a request.

your arguements are valid. as are mine. lets just agree to disagree. as for the word "slut" i called sha a slut (a character). i didnt call anyone on this mb a slut. and besides she is a slut. so im just calling her like i see her.

as for oriental that was discussed in another post. although i didnt like wolfboys form of apology or the defense against him, i dropped this already.
Okay, so Shayera's a slut and Dr. Light is Oriental.


I don't know if people want all the women to be portrayed as prudes or something, but some of you need to get out of the 1930s...
In defense of the topic, I hardly see today's promiscuity as an improvement over anything. :sad:

[Donomark]

Oh, so there's nothing wrong with Bruce pinning Andrea to the ground and then kissing here out of the blue in the karate garden scene of MOTP? That was a clear reference to sexual bondage! OMG, Bruce is a rapist!:p

That actually sound like a scene from some porn movie.;)

[Christophe]

I imagine it's not very arousing to be in the middle of two giant flesh walls. I don't think The Atom would care at that size.

[akomoron]

I think you statment is very true, i think that JLU women were turned way to much into "Desperate Females," i have stated before that this is one of the reasons JLU sank,


D.

thank you dusty. i do think it damaged the show. and some men (hawkman for example) did very questionable things but majority of the women in the forefront (ww sha! fire canary huntress vixen supergirl) were really portrayed in debasing ways.

[Master Moron]

yep shes a slut. no defense for her behavior.


She wanted sex. That seems like a good enough defense to me. That's the only defense Batman has, after all. So, Hawkgirl likes to have sex on the first date? So what. She's an independent woman, if someone called her a slut she'd just clobber them with her mace. More women would probably have sex on the first date if they had maces.


In defense of the topic, I hardly see today's promiscuity as an improvement over anything. :sad:

You don't see women having sexual independence as an improvement? Well, to each his own.

[pixellj]

After reading many of the posts in this thread, I'm convinced. In fact, take away women's right to vote too, they're getting too independent and self-reliant. JLU is only furthering this insipid plot to further this 'equality' agenda. Thanks for the enlightment :shrug: .

[pixellj]

real mature Wolf, classy even, :rolleyes2: :raven:

Actually, it's dead on. It's pretty much the kind of response that's noticed on these boards it seems :sad: .

[Trevor Balena]

Okay, Akomoron. No offense (though I won't lose a lot of sleep if I do end up offending you), but this is getting tiresome. Every single thread you've started since you've appeared here has contained nothing but complaints, rudeness, and beligerent behaviour. Oh, and sexist, offensive slams against people both fictional and real.

Well, I guess you did accomplish one thing: you've exposed the sexist, outmoded thinking on the part of several other posters in this thread. But then again, I would have been happier not knowing about that.

If you're going to keep starting threads and making posts, get an attitude adjustment. Stop taking every instance of someone disagreeing with you as a personal insult, and try to make at least some positive comments about these shows. If you're not willing to do that, then you'll just continue to do what you've been doing over the last week: make this board a dismal, depressing place to be.

I doubt any of this will sink in -- you'll probably just use it as an excuse to attack me and avoid addressing any of the issues I've raised -- but it's worth a try...

[James]

The vibes in here ain't good, furthermore I'm not sure how valid this thread is as question as it's more of a statement and the replies seem more reproachful of that than they are in finding depth to the question. This thread has sown enough antagonism, time for bed.