What the League has done right!

[Borg4of3]

Okay, okay, okay. I think we've heard enough ranting about wimpy Superman, bad voiceacting, how the plots aren't as good as BTAS (who's is?), how all the characters are getting short-changed, the unbearable cliches, etc, etc, so on and so forth. :(

So... lets stop analyzing what we want and instead the things that the series has done right. How about we have a look at the positive things about JL! :D

I'd like to start with what I think is the one of the best things thus far: Aquaman is no longer an joke! The Enemy Below turned his reputation from the Superfriends fish-talking wuss into the character whom everyone actually wants to join the Justice League!

[Heehaw]

I guess I'd have to agree on the whole Aquaman not being a joke thing, but JL, while entertaining...just plain lacks. It's ho-hum average hooey and nothing special. I personally blame it on budget constraints. If Timm had the scratch, he wouldn't go with Koko. Reused animation, CG rain and fire and synthetic scores are dead giveaways for lack of funds. Being the cynic that I am, I'll just say it's for the merchandising. They're going to make a fortune and that's really all cartoons are all about. 22 minutes of advertising to help promote a product that will make some rich executives even richer.

I wonder what Timm really thinks about JL behind closed doors? Of course, he is going to shout out, in public, how great it is and all that, but I would bet he is more than a little disappointed in how it has turned out thus far, esp. given the high caliber of the material he and his cohoerts have produced in the not too distant past. I know of at least one person who could answer that for me, but my middleman insider is no longer my pal's pal, so I'll have to find another way to connect to that old source.....

[GL2k2]

1. Yes, they brought Aquaman back with a vengeance. He is respectable, just after they started those stupid commercials with him shaking his booty in the supermarket. I remember how pissed his fans were when the STAS episode came on and he was a quasi-hero. But the commercial took the cake and ate it with a glass of milk laughing.

2. Diversity. They could have easily had Wonder Woman be the only chick. No ethnic character, and quite definitely no Martian Manhunter. After the stupidness of throwing ethnic characters like Apache Chief, and Black Lightning who were no more than just ethnic characters with predictable powers, now we have another female, one decent Black hero, and an alien.

3. It's not a half-hour show. I can't imagine them doing another Justice League with a simple 22 minute show. Besides, some of the best episodes of the prior series have been 2-parters. Now I can't wait for the three-parters. With this there is more story, more action, and just more cartoon. I really hope that someday they edit the show in a one-hour format. I have a tape of all the STAS two-parters and I took out the openers of part two, and it is full length movie quality. I might do it with JL too.

4. It's on the Cartoon Network. We really don't know what this means and take it for granted. Imagine if this was on Kids WB. Could we have such intense action like the Aquaman episode. I don't think broadcast television is ready for an animated series like this. They weren't for Spawn, they weren't for the Maxx, and they aren't for Justice League.

:yakko:

[Heehaw]

3. It's not a half-hour show. I can't imagine them doing another Justice League with a simple 22 minute show. Besides, some of the best episodes of the prior series have been 2-parters. Now I can't wait for the three-parters. With this there is more story, more action, and just more cartoon. I really hope that someday they edit the show in a one-hour format. I have a tape of all the STAS two-parters and I took out the openers of part two, and it is full length movie quality. I might do it with JL too.

Quantity doesn't necessarily amount to quality.


4. It's on the Cartoon Network. We really don't know what this means and take it for granted. Imagine if this was on Kids WB. Could we have such intense action like the Aquaman episode. I don't think broadcast television is ready for an animated series like this. They weren't for Spawn, they weren't for the Maxx, and they aren't for Justice League.

Spawn failed because it was plain horrible. It was gratuitous for the sake of being gratuitous, and it was technically flawed. I actually enjoyed The Maxx, but it was just too weird and out there for the mainstream.

The episode "Over the Edge" is much more intense than the Aquaman episode. Batgirl falls off a building and we actually see her slam into a car. It doesn't matter how it all turned out in the end, the visual is there and it had much more of an impact.

Also, let's not forget psychological impact which is always better than a visual one. There are countless stories from both BTAS and TNBA which are cutting edge, to this day, in terms of what has been seen on American TV animation. BTAS was basically an adult animated drama series. It was/is better than 95% of live action TV series(and in some cases movies) out there.

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Borg4of3
Okay, okay, okay. I think we've heard enough ranting about wimpy Superman, bad voiceacting, how the plots aren't as good as BTAS (who's is?), how all the characters are getting short-changed, the unbearable cliches, etc, etc, so on and so forth. :(

So... lets stop analyzing what we want and instead the things that the series has done right. How about we have a look at the positive things about JL! :D

I'd like to start with what I think is the one of the best things thus far: Aquaman is no longer an joke! The Enemy Below turned his reputation from the Superfriends fish-talking wuss into the character whom everyone actually wants to join the Justice League!

AMEN TO THAT! Im also getting a little tired of the constant nit picking of JL!

My favortite things so far would defintely be Aquaman like you guys said. That was excellent for the reasons you already explained.

I also agree that making ever episode at least a 2 parter was the only way to go. I couldnt imagine them doing the characters justice in 20 minutes.

I happen to really like Batmans redesign. Its like taking the coolest aspects of BTAS TNBA and BB and throwing them all together.

Voice actors! Everyone is voiced wonderfully in my opinion. George Newborn was a bit odd sounding at first but I really dont think he's any worse than Tim Daly. Hawkgirl, MM, GL, Flash, and WW are all great, and you cant go wrong with Kevin Conroy as the Dark Knight. Cant wait to hear Mark Hammills evil laugh again.

Stories! I've loved the stories so far I dont care what anyone says. Granted some of the dialogue (particularly Flashs) has been corny, but the overall writing is very good if people would just stop TRYING SO HARD to look for problems. Secret Origins was mediocre but thats because they had to intoduce 7 heroes in less than 90 minutes. Everything afterward has been excellent. Especially The Enemy Below and Paradise Lost. And thereve only been 4 episodes. If we just remain patient and wait for the other whole rest of the season JUST MAYBE the other characters will get more characterization. Its just crazy enough to work!

Animation. SO what if they reuse 6 or 7 seconds of animation every once and a while. The animation rocks. The style still rocks after all these years. The characters look great. The backgrounds look great. Especially when Hades summoned those undead warriors out of the ground! WOW that was cool!

The cast. Timm and co. im my opinion has chosen the greatest balance of personality. At first I was all "Who's hawkgirl, where's kyle?" But now I see that all of them fit in like puzzle peices.

Just plain getting to see animated batman and superman on TV again. If it wasnt for cartoon network there would be NO DC animated show on right now. And thats a sad thought.

And to adress some of the complaints:

Superman isn't any wimpier than he was in STAS as far as I can tell,

the other characters arent getting short changed its just that thereve only been 4 episodes so far just be patient for the other specific character focused episodes theres 7 of them for gods sake they cant cram all of them into the spotlight all the time thats just the way it works,

an occational bad line doesnt = bad voice acting the actors are damn good and with each episode they'll probably get better its unlikely that they'll walk into the recording studio 100% in sync with the characters the voice acting in Paradise Lost was excellent,

This show is NOT BTAS. Why compare the two. Batman is part adventure part sfifi and a HUGE part detective stories. JL is mostly scifi oriented. Personally I like BTAS better at this point too but BTAS and TNBA are done and over with and its easy to praise it. JL just started. The first 4 episodes of Batman were kick a*% but they paled in comparison to what was to come.

And finally, no offense Heehaw, I totally respect your opinion and see where you're coming from but there are like 5 other threads for critiqing JL. Personally Im glad to hear Im not the only one who isnt nitpicking it to death. Thanks for the release, Borg4of3.

[Heehaw]

just stop TRYING SO HARD to look for problems

I'm not looking for problems, they're in plain sight and are very easy to spot. Also, since the flaws are so significant, it can't really be defined as nitpicking.

The reuse of animation is unforgivable. It screams cheap, and it's a very big deal. My main gripe, though, is the stiffness, not the rehash. There is no fluidity or grace to the characters' movements. On occasion there will be a flash of quality, but it is rare.

I don't really have a problem with the voice acting, as a whole. Definitely on the secondary characters but not on the primaries. An occasional line, yes, but it has been fairly solid, though not perfect, particularly with some of Batman's lines.

I really haven't said much about the "wimpiness" of Superman. I personally think he is very underused, in terms of his powers. He basically stands around and doesn't do anything half the time which is pretty lame, though it is the least of my concerns. Some have commented about WW beating him in PL, well he let her do it because he knew about their transformation long before she did.

As for comparing JL and BTAS, well one really has no choice but to do it. It's all cut from the same cloth, but whereas one was art and legendary in it's innovation, the other is more average and much more basic.

But, if the masses want crap and like crap(as the ratings indicate), well I'm sure we'll get plenty more of it.

[Dark Knight]

Well not everything I said was directed at you, Heehaw. Im sorry if you took it that way. Most of what I was talking about was stuff that ive heard other people say, both on and off this forum.

However thats an insane overstatement to call JL crap. I dont know if you've seen 90% of what else is on TV (or 99% of cartoons for that matter) but most of that is crap. JL is a fantastic action cartoon and an excellent adaptation of a comic book to animation. It's not as good of BTAS, but again. The show JUST started. And its shown me great potential. These kinds of things really shouldnt be picked apart and overanalyzed. They're just cartoons. Theyre here to entertain so we should just sit back and enjoy them. JL has so much potential and its just beginning. Honestly, I find it hard to believe you dont go out of your way to only see the flaws when in a thread titles "What the League has done RIGHT " you have nothing to offer but critisism. Theres gotta be something you like about the show? Why else would you watch it?

[TheScarecrow]

It seems to me that Justice League can do no right in some of the eyes around here. I guess it had the misfortune of coming after BATS and STAS, and deep down, those people would just rather have one of those shows back on the air.

For me, I like the dialog. Flash's lines are great, and I liked his outrage at the end of the last episode where WW was vanished from her home. Lines like Batman's "right" after Superman's offering of help in Secret Origins was great too. I will add more stuff about what I like soon, as it's too late at night for me to say more right now. ;)

Personally, I like Justice League. Good as the original shows? Nope. Crap? Absolutely not! In time, I expect this to get better and better with each season as the cast and crew improve the concept and such.

And to HeeHaw, I am not trying to flame you or anything, but you seem to be trying to change the minds of the people who like JL. Dark Knight is right about the other threads for you to give opinions on what is wrong with JL. This thread isn't exactly the appropriate one.

[Tim Drake]

I mentioned it earlier. One of my favorite things about JL is how they animate vehicles and people flying. It has the anime Cowboy Bebop/Outlaw Star feel when I see the Batplane swoop around in the sky.

I just rewatched World's Finest tonight, and while I love it more than JL overall, I noticed how the flying for Superman and The Batplane wasn't nearly as impressive as in JL.

[Karkull]

I really like the line-up that the creative team set up. They put the "big three" (Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman) in with four characters who weren't ever members of the Superfriends. They made Hawkgirl and Green Lantern more interesting, J'onn different from Superman, Flash the rookie, and somehow got the rights to use Wonder Woman! Sweet!

And, for the record, even BTAS needed some time to find its momentum. Check out Christmas With the Joker and listen to how awkward Mark Hamill's delivery was!

[warmachine04]

The most interesting highlight about the show (at least for me) will have to be the interaction between characters. The scene between GL and Flash in "Secret Origins" will have to be one of my favorites in the whole series. :D

The creators have done a good job making the characters more interesting. I never liked Hawkman or Hawkgirl from the past animated series but now Hawkgirl is one my favorite characters in the series. GL is the serious type, Flash is the egotistical hotshot and WW is the upcoming rookie. I didn't like the Martian Manhunter in the begining of the series but his presence seems interesting. They manage to preserve well the character of Batman from past series. Though Superman has his negative points that have already been discussed in this forum, he still manages to get his momments.

[Karkull]

I forgot to mention that the mix of guest stars is promising. I loved Deadshot's appearance and I'm looking forward to more.

[Cassandra]

I'm so happy that they used the Martian Manhunter. I love that guy in the comics, and they didn't lame him up for the cartoon or anything.They gave him a really cool origin.

I also like the way they are framing up the stories.It's a difficult thing to write a JLA story in the comics, but animating one must be a nightmare.I mean, in the comics you can use cheaters- you can't really tell how long it takes to do things- maybe it looked like it took forever for batman to break out of his manacles (for instance) but a writer can defend himself and say it was only a minute or two "real time". In animation we can see exactly how long everything takes- If superman gets knocked out of the way and dissapears for three minutes, we wonder what the heck happened-is he knitting? Harder to hide flaws, and much more difficult to write.Snaps to them for their efforts so far.

And I burst out laughing (oh, YES!! ) the minute I saw snapper carr on the screen.That was so cool.

[Joe Wagner]

Almost everyone has mentioned Aquaman and I couldn't agree more, he's the badass that he was always meant to be. My favorite parts would actually be Superman telling Batman if he needed help to call him and Bats reaction and the Deadshot scene where Supes tells WW she doesn't want to know what Bats told Deadshot to make him talk. I've also enjoyed the flash (ice mochas anyone?) and his trial appearance. Paradise Lost actually made me respect WW a lot more than I ever have and see her as a stronger character than I ever would have suspected from either the comics or toon (plus the action sequence in part two was incredible). I can't wait to finally get to add JLTAS to my DVD collection and hope that WB releases all of the episodes in this format - seeing as how each story arc has progressively gotten better than the last.

-Joe!

Only one problem - bring in Aztek! (Sorry I had to begin my solo campaign to get Aztek in the show, even if it's just as a cameo in the background of a Pirates game that Supes happens to fly past on his way through Pittsburgh) :D

[Joe Wagner]

Oh yea - I forgot one thing

Widescreen - Timm was right, widescreen does make the JLTAS look even more dynamic

-Joe!

[Ruffian]

My favorite cartoon series of all time is She-Ra (followed closely by He-Man... :)), and that show was not the greatest, but it had a lot of heart and character.

Justice League I wouldn't say is the greatest thing to happen in the DC animated universe, but it's not bad. It definitely is one of the best series out there right now. For me, the best. I don't watch Saturday morning lineups or after school shows because I don't find them appealing, especially with all the anime around. I was never fond of anime except for Voltron and Robotech. Justice League got me watching TV again. It's the only thing I watch religiously every week and I enjoy it thoroughly.

Like She-Ra, Justice League has a lot of heart, and the character is coming along. In Secret Origins, the heros expressed remorse and concern for Batman. Same for GL in In Blackest Night. This rendition of Aquaman is awesome, showing him to be a great ruler, good husband and father, and striving for peace for his nation. After Paradise Lost, I was liking Wonder Woman a lot better than when I first saw her in Secret Origins. In Secret Origins I wasn't sure how I would like this new rendition of her, but Paradise Lost has me leaning towards liking her. What she put herself to do to save her mother and her sisters was noble and compassionate. It shows that she cares. Justice League has made me laugh, gasp, and tear up in the eyes so far. I wouldn't call this show a failure. The show has been able to express the characters into something believable and human to me and that's what I enjoy from watching the show. Yes, there are the cheesy jokes and sarcasms and the bad dialogue, but the little heartfelt moments tug a heartstring in me that makes me feel like this is a good show and one worth watching.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy all,

I've been as guilty as any of overemphasizing the criticism over the good points of JL, so here's my contributions (tho' too many of you stole mine already, doggone it!).

1. Aquaman. Others have said it better than I can, so go re-read their posts.

2. Hawkgirl. I've always had a soft spot for Hawkman and Hawkgirl/woman, in any of their incarnations. I was mightily jazzed to see one of them in the lineup (IMO, the cuter one =8^), and even more jazzed when she was no damsel in distress. Now all we need is the episode where they explain whether the wings are part of her body or not =8^).

3. John Stewart. I'm probably the only one out here who thought it was cool to use John Stewart as Green Lantern from the start, but that's probably because I'm the only one in the world who stuck with Green Lantern: Mosaic till the end. I really dig his "Samuel L. Jackson with a Power Ring" attitude, and really wished they did more with his trip through his old neighborhood in In Darkest Night. The green eyes are wicked cool, too.

4. J'onn J'onzz. At the very least, he sounds like he always did in my head, but I think the writers (and animators) "get" the extreme loneliness that he labors under. I'd like to see an ep focusing on J'onn, and the culture shock he experiences on Earth (and more tactics like where he pulled the brain out of the Manhunter, instead of the "turn-translucent-in-a-crossfire" trick).

5. The cameos and homages. Senator "Jay Alan Carter," an amalgam of Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and Carter Hall (the Golden Age Flash, Green Lantern, and Hawkman), as well as maybe a nod to Edgar Rice Burrough's John Carter of Mars series. The undead Greek soldiers in Paradise Lost, who are straight out of a Ray Harryhausen movie. Getting the best known members of the Green Lantern Corps in the GL episode, along with Kanjar Ro. Heck, throw in Ace the Bathound from Batman Beyond. I've been reading comics for more than half my life (and possibly longer than some posters here have been alive). I LOVE the homages to stuff that happened before.

6. The throwaway lines. "Down, boy." "Don't even think about it." "How can women wear such ridiculous clothing?" "You really are from another planet." A lot of them establish characters individually, and in relation to each other (sometimes better than the dialog, but that's for another thread =8^).

7. They love this, and it shows. For all its flaws, this show is a labor of love for BT and the creative team. They want to do it right just as much (if not more) than we do. They read these boards to see what we think because they CARE what we think (remember BT's comment on the people criticizing WW's voice acting?). Say what you will about the creative crew, but don't ever suggest that they don't care.

Oh, and one last thing:

8. The Flash and his iced mocha jones. Wally doesn't get his powers from the Speed Force. He gets it from the most massive caffeine buzz mankind has ever known =8^).

-- Ed/Ace

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Twilight
Justice League got me watching TV again. It's the only thing I watch religiously every week and I enjoy it thoroughly.



Ditto. Aside from all the stuff I and every one else already said about JL, Im glad because its a great TV show, plain and simple. You can compare it to whatever shows you want but the fact of the matter is its the only action cartoon on TV right now that is coming out with new episodes that I go out of my way to watch. I look forward to it every week and there just arent any other shows right now, (nor have there been for a while) that ive liked so much that I actually set aside time to enjoy it.

[Failure]

A lot of what I've liked about JL has already been said, but I will bring up a couple points which I don't believe have been mentioned yet.

JL, with all it's weakness in the dialogue and character development, is still able to draw emotional responses from me. When GL was on trial, I was engrossed and eager to see how it would turn out. I felt sympathy for Aquaman who had to choose between his hand and his baby. I felt anger when & a bittersweetness when Aquaman had to deal with his brother who was on the precipice of death. I felt sad for Hippolyta and WW, because of what the laws of the land forced upon them. And I was also able to understand the otherside, in the feeling of unjestness by the JLers when Hippolyta handed down her decision. A bad show wouldn't be able to draw emotions from me, I wouldn't care about the characters and I wouldn't care about the show. The writers haven't been perfect, the dialogue could be better, it could be more character-focused, and so on, but let's give them some credit. They've captured our attentions haven't they?

[Batman49]

I intended to add to this thread but I have found that most of what I like has already been posted so I'll just state the obvious, JL IN WIDESCREEN looks great. Also, the Deadshot appearence was great . Also something not mentioned was the fact that Snapper Carr has found a role in JL. I think it was a clever way to include the JLA's mascot into the show without being corny. Can't wait until Saturday to see Paradise Lost again.

Fil

[Heehaw]

What Heehaw likes about Justice League:

-Widescreen - Yes, it is a matted, but a very large chunk of animation is, and it is a reality in the live action world. Stanley Kubrick, one of the most respected directors ever, shot films such as "Full Metal Jacket", "The Shining", and "Eyes Wide Shut" in fullscreen and matted to widescreen for the theatrical presentation. Unfortunetly, the DVDs are in fullscreen, but I suspect one day that will change. That's one.

-Guest appearances - I may not always like how guests are potrayed, but at least they exist. Aquaman was a fantastic characterization, though Deadshot left me cold, esp. since it was essentially Flash's voice.

-Clean art - Despite my misgivings about the animation and woodenness of characters' posings, I appreciate the fact that most of the time the art is very clean and squiggle free. I suspect that has alot to do with the use of CG, but the drawbacks seems to be a very sterile looking show. The old series' had a somewhat grainy, filmlike quality, and I really miss that. Another drawback would be the use of CG rain, fire, and smoke. I personally think those should be hand generated, but if the tradeoff is a more crisp presentation, in regards to the actually cel art, well then so be it.

-The opening theme - While it isn't my favorite of the BT series themes, I feel it is the strongest piece of music from the series.

-The principle cast - With the possible exception of Superman, I am pretty happy with the voice actors up to now. Wonder Woman has had quite a difficult time, but I don't have any problems with her like I did. I have yet to get used to the new Superman, though, and probably never will. I'm not a huge fan of changing voice actors.

-Brief flourishes of good animation - Occasionally, a scene will occur that actually recalls, in my mind, the days of old. For me, it is worth watching just for that.

-Batman and Bruce Timm- They are why I am in it for the long haul. I feel Bats is sometimes a little off, but it is negligable. I may not agree with many of BT's choices, but I'm glad he is making some and hope he continues to produce quality shows well beyond Justice League. Hopefully, he will return to an all Batman show, one day. It may be a pipe dream, but one can dream.