Does anime trivalise war?

[HellCat]

This is based on personal feelings as well as a recent discussion on the GML about Gundam vs more serious war stories.

To me, it just feels like current creators trivalise conflict. It's all pretty speeches and grand gestures. Most annoyingly, especially for Gundam, is the idea one super faction who says "Duh, gee, what if we all work togethor?" is in the right by default. Maybe it's the fact the last few generations of humanity haven't had a major conflict to impress on them but I think anime is currently trivalising one of the more dirty elements of life and make it more romantic and black and white then it actually is.

[rubberchicken]

Anime doesn't do much of anything as a whole.

If you're talking about SEED, then yes, it's about as far as you can get from a gritty or realistic picture of human conflict. But what other shows outside of Gundam do you see as trivializing war?

[Duke]

I guess you could argue that most anime doesn't get as gritty as, say, Saving Private Ryan or Black Hawk Down, but in most anime war is just a plot device for the bad guys to hide behind while they get their own plans going.

[HellCat]

Forgive me sir, but I am having flashbacks to a thread about parents...

Just about every anime these days essentially. It's all pretty speeches and unrealistic ideals. I've been called an unrealistic idealist myself but current anime's belief that things will work out if the beautiful people want it too is ridiculous. It kinda reminds me of this, especially the third panel- http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20061214.html

[Gatomon41]

I tend to agree. Gundam does a good job showing war can be hell, but it also shows the reasons for war and how to end it as rather being shallow. How wars are fought tend to be the same. WHY wars are fought and how to end them is never really developed.

Just recently I had a discussion on War in SF. This isn't just limited to anime either, but many ther mediums don't have a very in depth understanding of why wars start and how to end them.

[Mr. Anime]

Great, another Hellcat bashs Seed Destiny theard over what ever petty reason.

[HellCat]

Great, another Hellcat bashs Seed Destiny theard over waht ever petty reason.

Aside from the fact I don't go around targetting SEED Destiny, this thread is discussing anime as a whole. Please don't disrupt what could be an interesting discussion.

[Beat]

The best descriptions of war are the ones that focus on both sides of the conflict. If it's trying to be serious without doing that, it won't work.

[rubberchicken]

The thing with Gundam - or with SEED, at least - is that the characters play many more roles than people do in actual conflict. In SEED you have the "hero alliance" of people like Kira, Athrun, and Lacus, who are:

soldiers (they fight the battles)
commanders (they write their own orders)
politicians (they don't answer to a higher authority figure and yet they try to tell other nations what to do)

That's the thing. Nobody in a real conflict does that much. I have several friends in the armed forces, and they mostly spend their time sitting around doing grunt work while they wait for their next marching orders to come in from the brass. Real soldiers don't sit around doing a lot of posturing about right and wrong; that's what the politicians do. Soldiers don't have time for that. They're more interested in catching up on sack time, getting themselves a woman (if possible), and not dying.

[Han Ji-Eun]

I think you are right, and when I read the thread topic, the first thing I thought of was Gundam. I think every Gundam series (especially Wing, although it is my favorite) depicted very idealistic situations when confronting war. The only one that did not was 08th MS Team, which showed the lives of normal troops in the middle of an epic war (from the UC timeline).

I can't blame the series, though, as it makes the show interesting, especially to see soldiers that have political impact or politicians that actually go to war to show their support for the cause. In this case, I'd say "who cares" if war is protrayed accurately or not, because it makes for a good story. And I doubt anyone is really going to be forming all their ideas about war and peace based on an anime (except maybe one of those creepy shut-in type of otakus, and nobody listens to them anyway), so it's not hurting anyone to decipt war in that fashion.

[Mynd Hed]

I'd say it's less a problem with anime in particular as with all heroic fiction in general. But yes, I'd say the issues surrounding war tend to be oversimplified by most anime. Most anime's themes tend to fall into either the "one side of a given war is 100% right and good and noble and the other is 100% wrong and bad and must be defeated in righteous conflict" or else the "all war is always bad and wrong and can never, ever be justified; complete and utter pacifism is the only morally correct doctrine" camps.

[Ragebot]

I guess you could argue that most anime doesn't get as gritty as, say, Saving Private Ryan

Saving Private Ryan is absolutely terrific in its visceral depictions of the horrors of war, but even that film suffers from pat moralizing and glib sentimentality. Quite frankly, I feel that both Gundam SEED and Gundam 0080 are more subtle and ambiguous.

[Lutochris]

Call me crazy but I actually think Gundam is probably the least guilty of this. In most of the Gundam series I've seen they go to great lengths to humanize both sides of a conflict. And almost no one is portrayed as being purely good or purely evil. From what I've seen the original is probably the best at this, since it has a more utilitarian and less stylistic feel to it than most other Gundam series.

Also, I don't know why you'd think that this type of thing is exclusive to anime. You don't think most Jerry Bruckhiemer movies are guilty of the same thing?

[Gatomon41]

Call me crazy but I actually think Gundam is probably the least guilty of this. In most of the Gundam series I've seen they go to great lengths to humanize both sides of a conflict. And almost no one is portrayed as being purely good or purely evil. From what I've seen the original is probably the best at this, since it has a more utilitarian and less stylistic feel to it than most other Gundam series.
The Gundam does a good job at showing both sides of a war (most of the time), but it still fails to explain how to end war, other than the typical pacificism shpell.


Also, I don't know why you'd think that this type of thing is exclusive to anime. You don't think most Jerry Bruckhiemer movies are guilty of the same thing?
The issue of war is never really been fully explored in any sf/f fantasy medium. It lacks depth.

[Golgo13]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it's just a cartoon.

[Zach Logan]

There's always going to be entertainment about war, but it's normally used to show or portray the hardship's it brings to a character like in Mobile Suit Gundam or better yet, Gundam 0080.

Movies like Saving Private Ryan do a good job at promoting what it means to be in a war. I think most war-focused anime does a good job at showing the evils and good that come out of the battlefield.

[J'onn J'onzz]

Don't take this the wrong way, but it's just a cartoon.

...

You know, I'm sick of hearing this.

Why do people think that just because something is animated means it can't have any depth?

[Golgo13]

...

You know, I'm sick of hearing this.

Why do people think that just because something is animated means it can't have any depth?

I'm not saying it doesn't have any depth, I'm just saying you shouldn't take it so seriously.

If you take it too seriously, it looks twice as cornball than if it were childish.

[Ragebot]

Why do people think that just because something is animated means it can't have any depth?

I don't think he's saying that at all. I think he's trying to point out that it can be very difficult to perfectly capture the horrors of war in animation. It's difficult enough in live action.

[Lighthammer]

The one point I tend to agree with that has been pointed out by many people in so far is that animes defiantly don't illustrate full depth of why a war level conflict actually STARTS.

To be fair many series do do a very good job at describing the basis of the conflict during the series.

That said, a good explanation as to why they don't is very likely because it's hard to convey the story *AND* keep the series interesting.

You would some how need a very committed audience for that to work. To catch the attention of your viewers you need action from the get-go --- all else can follow.

Gundam Wing, Bleach, Trinity Blood and Tri-Gun are some series off the top of my head that blast into action, action and more action then back off and slowly build a world for your imagination.

For nothing else, I think everyone would have to agree these series *DO* in fact grab your attention and keep it and all do have a nasty little war going on in the background.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Ironically, the most pointed observation I've seen in anime about modern 'war' is Martian Successor Nadesico. Yes, a silly mecha comedy show. Nadesico shows how those in power tend to use fear tactics and propaganda (hello, red/green/yellow/orange alert and 'God bless OUR nation') to keep a war going just to satisfy the corporate bigwigs who are financing the governments with newfangled technology and other goodies. And Nadesico also makes fun of the silliness of the "love can conquer all" anime cliche. In fact, it takes that cliche to the greatest level of insanity that you can't mistake it for anything but a satire.

I think that's one of the reasons why the ending wasn't very well received. It was cynical and rather snide. But I actually thought the ending was one of Nadesico's strongest points.

I don't even consider Nadesico a masterpiece, but I can't deny it has the most modern, knowing take on war I've seen in the past 10 years. It's very Dr. Strangelove-ish in its tone.

You know, about Gundam, the reason why it was originally praised in 1979 was BECAUSE it refused to paint war as black and white. The Zeons may have had "Nazi-like" overtones but it didn't paint the Earth Federation in a very favourable light either.

I
'd say it's less a problem with anime in particular as with all heroic fiction in general. But yes, I'd say the issues surrounding war tend to be oversimplified by most anime. Most anime's themes tend to fall into either the "one side of a given war is 100% right and good and noble and the other is 100% wrong and bad and must be defeated in righteous conflict" or else the "all war is always bad and wrong and can never, ever be justified; complete and utter pacifism is the only morally correct doctrine" camps.

The funny thing is that is what I think about most Hollywood war films. People praise Saving Private Ryan for its grit and 'realism', but I found it much like a lot of Hollywood films--jingoistic and celebratory of only the one nation (A lot of the Allies were conveniently glossed over to wave the good ol' Stars and Stripes flag at the end of the film) they deem to be the "righteous" side of the war.

[GWOtaku]

posted by Gatomon41:

The issue of war is never really been fully explored in any sf/f fantasy medium. It lacks depth. Its a single example and a niche and you probably weren't aware of it, but I'd say Legend of Galactic Heroes pulls it off. It helps that its adapted from a series of novels, but in any event the space opera genre doesn't get more realistic or epic than that show.

_____

On this topic I think simplify is a much more accurate term to use for anime. Trivialize implies that the subject is taken lightly and not portrayed seriously, which I think is demonstrably not true. A literal army of examples can be found where war involves widespread destruction, reprehensible behavior, cruel irony, and no small amount of tragedy for the main characters to drive it all home to the viewer. Anime clearly communicates the tragedy and the cost of the act of war in and of itself.

Where anime falters is when it tries to explore the causes of war and conflict resolution. Very often when a story gets going a war is already going on, and anime often glosses over the reasons for it in favor of depicting the classic protagonist-caught-in-the-middle theme.

Related to this, my primary criticism of the portrayal of war in anime is that Just War Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory) is often ignored outright as if it doesn't exist. War stories seem to fall into one of two categories.

First: the basic theme of an evil and unjust major power invading a smaller/weaker one. Code Geass is the most notable recent example I can think of.
Second: a conflict where both sides are contemptible, commit their share of atrocities, and are morally equivalent to each other.

The second type is my primary target here. First of all, if there's a new low that one side can take then it happens. This is especially true in Gundam. Most recently, in Seed/Seed Destiny humanity routinely breaks treaties, indoctrinates humans, and employs progressively more powerful weapons of mass destruction. While this makes for powerful drama, by constantly portraying the worst-case scenario they seem less interested in realism than they do in making an anti-war point. Some of you may disagree with me on this point depending on your degree of cynicism, but that's how I see it. I don't say there isn't merit to this approach, just that it can come off as one-dimensional.

I want to stress that this setting can make for a deep story. But it can also be just as simplistic as a straightforward good vs. evil story. By insisting on portraying all sides as wrong and/or bad with only the protagonists in the right (if anyone) the Japanese aren't doing much more than declaring that war is a terrible thing, which everybody knows already. By harping on this theme Anime has a tendency to communicate that war is never justified and morally wrong 100% of the time, which simply isn't the case.

Given their modern history the Japanese tendency to push pacifist theory so hard is understandable and can be forgiven. However I think they need to be far more willing to consider other philosophies and cultures seriously, because while pacifism is a nice ideal it's simply incapable of explaining conflict by itself. Its not so much a theory explaining the causes of war as it is a "what if we could manage to be like this" scenario. In anime proponents of peace have deus ex machina like super robots, charismatic leaders, and/or a convenient sequence of events to even the scales. Its not that simple in practice.

In closing, it's worth noting that this isn't a uniform description. In the 80's and early 90's they generally seemed content to tell a solid war story and leave it at that. MSG/Zeta, Robotech, Legend of Galactic Heroes, etc. In contrast the pacifist theme seems to be far more common in the past 10-15 years, starting at roughly the same time AU Gundam did. I'm being general here and I don't claim to have studied the issue or understand why things changed, but it seems to me that somewhere along the line there was a noticeable shift.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

In closing, its worth noting that this isn't a uniform description. In the 80's and early 90's they generally seemed content to tell a solid war story and leave it at that. MSG/Zeta, Robotech, Legend of Galactic Heroes, etc. In contrast the pacifist theme seems to be far more common in the past 10-15 years, starting at roughly the same time AU Gundam did. I'm being general here and I don't claim to have studied the issue and understand why things changed, but it seems to me that somewhere along the line there was a noticeable shift.

I disagree, I think anime has always had a strong pacifist theme dating back to the Cold War era of anime. Macross has a strong anti-war theme to it, same as MSG. It's been a common cliche for a long time.

I haven't seen enough Legend of Galactic Heroes, though, since it seems so damned long.

But pertaining to this thread, I don't find anime to treat war any more or less simplistic than Hollywood does. I suppose you can argue that even the best Hollywood war films can't escape jingoism and even the best war anime can't escape pacifist speeches.

Interestingly, I'm watching a fantasy anime now, Twelve Kingdoms, and it occurred to me that war in fantasy/historical anime tend to be treated more matter-of-factly than sci-fi war anime, which always has a message.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Anime doesn't do much of anything as a whole.

If you're talking about SEED, then yes, it's about as far as you can get from a gritty or realistic picture of human conflict. But what other shows outside of Gundam do you see as trivializing war?

How do you see Gundam as trivilaizing war? Are you talking about the franchise as a whole?

[Hanshotfirst113]

Call me crazy but I actually think Gundam is probably the least guilty of this. In most of the Gundam series I've seen they go to great lengths to humanize both sides of a conflict. And almost no one is portrayed as being purely good or purely evil. From what I've seen the original is probably the best at this, since it has a more utilitarian and less stylistic feel to it than most other Gundam series.

Also, I don't know why you'd think that this type of thing is exclusive to anime. You don't think most Jerry Bruckhiemer movies are guilty of the same thing?

Agreed 100%.

[GWOtaku]

posted by Leaping Larry Jojo:

I disagree, I think anime has always had a strong pacifist theme dating back to the Cold War era of anime. Macross has a strong anti-war theme to it, same as MSG. It's been a common cliche for a long time. Perhaps I needed to explain myself better before. I agree that the anti-war theme is a constant. What I'm saying is that before they were willing to put the story out there, tell it, and the viewer would draw their own conclusions and generally get the point. The difference is now they seem interested in talking about why people are actually fighting in the first place, and in pushing pacifism as an ideology. In other words before they simply showed us war, and now they try to discuss what we can do about it. Hence my point and my remark that the pacifist ideology isn't able to do that very well.

Oh, and I'd strongly recommend LoGH. It is a long haul but I've stuck with it, and it is a show that delivers.

[Lighthammer]

Backtracking to the original --- although its NOT an anime, Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roughnecks:_Starship_Troopers_Chronicles) is probably IMHO one of the best depictions of troops in the middle of a conflict.

Let me iterate for those who haven't seen this series --- it is NOTHING like the movies entitled "Star Ship Troopers". This series holds true to the book.

This might be what the OP was looking for in a series.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I suppose I needed to explain myself better before. I agree that the anti-war theme is a constant. What I'm saying is that before they were willing to put the story out there, tell it, and the viewer would draw their own conclusions and generally get the point. The difference is now they seem interested in talking about why people are actually fighting in the first place, and in pushing pacifism as an ideology. In other words before they simply showed us war, and now they try to discuss what we can do about it. Hence my point and my remark that the pacifist ideology isn't able to do that very well.


I understand. You mean today's war anime tend to be more didactic, and I can't necessarily argue with that.

[Hordesman]

Just about every anime these days essentially. It's all pretty speeches and unrealistic ideals. I've been called an unrealistic idealist myself but current anime's belief that things will work out if the beautiful people want it too is ridiculous. It kinda reminds me of this, especially the third panel- http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20061214.html

Something like He-Man isn't nearly as idealistic as shounen anime because He-Man's goodness/Adam's happy-go-lucky nature probably won't wear Skeletor over to his side. A Shounen Bush would mostly make a mess fighting in Iraq but come through when it really mattered and wow everyone. Oh, and much like how Yoh Asakura got buddy-buddy with all sorts of murderous freaks- Shounen Bush's nakama would end up including reformed terrorists.

[Lighthammer]

Something like He-Man isn't nearly as idealistic as shounen anime because He-Man's goodness/Adam's happy-go-lucky nature probably won't wear Skeletor over to his side. A Shounen Bush would mostly make a mess fighting in Iraq but come through when it really mattered and wow everyone. Oh, and much like how Yoh Asakura got buddy-buddy with all sorts of murderous freaks- Shounen Bush's nakama would end up including reformed terrorists.

That said --- two other thoughts to throw on the fire:

#1.) Could it be that instead, anime has given us a more grounded view of what we SHOULD expect from our leaders. Should we EXPECT someone like Bush to come through when it really, truly counts to make a statement for the good of humanity instead of fighting a war over natural resources and money?

#2.) Do the authors of these series actually intend to impress a point onto to us, the viewers / readers of these series.

One thing I do have to admit: many of the ideologies illustrated in many of these series defiantly has had an impact on MY LIFE. I've always been the "straight arrow" type even before watching Ronin Warriors or DBZ (My first animes) but watching these series so often has given me a real trumped up opinion of 'justice' (for lack of a better term) that I do find myself increasingly more willing to act on. Part of it IS indeed growing up but it can not be denied that some of my personal ethics does come from the fits of passion we have seen from 'anime heroes' in the face of so many wrongful acts.

[HellCat]

How do you see Gundam as trivilaizing war? Are you talking about the franchise as a whole?

Alot of Gundam, especially in the last 10 years, has operated under the belief that war will end when you take away the weapons. Wing and SEED have this odd thing where they both promote and criticise this. In SEED for example, the self declared heroes removed the major threat at the time and then assumed they could sit back as everyone started hugging. The fact is, war doesn't work like that. Whilst some military campaigns are ego driven, people generally don't go to war for trivial reasons that end when you take away their toys. I myself am anti-war but I take the time to understand its nature.

I really don't want this discussion focused on Gundam but compare 0080 to SEED and you'll see a marked difference. Current directors don't seem to have anything relevant to say on the subject, nor anything credible.

[Kagetsu]

I've not seen much of Gundum. But many animes, FullMetal Alchemist, Blue Gender, Eureka Seven, do a fairly good job with an overall war to give conflict to a limited character base. Actually even better than shows like G.I.Joe which still cling to "superheroes can save everything" ideal and that people start war because they are ciminal rather than idealistic.

This is probably on the new side of things as older shows seem to have an ongoing war as a conflict of the "rule the universe" evil guy sending small forces with new secret weapons to stop a band of intrepid heroes, Battleship Yamato. (which I also haven't seen much of, but it's the only one that comes to mind)

Then there was the popular "Freedom Fighter" theme that was even used for Sonic the hedgehog and Zoids that I thought really went for simplistic ideals.

[GWOtaku]

posted by HellCat:

Alot of Gundam, especially in the last 10 years, has operated under the belief that war will end when you take away the weapons. Wing and SEED have this odd thing where they both promote and criticise this. In SEED for example, the self declared heroes removed the major threat at the time and then assumed they could sit back as everyone started hugging. The fact is, war doesn't work like that. Whilst some military campaigns are ego driven, people generally don't go to war for trivial reasons that end when you take away their toys.

I agree, although to an extent they do seem to be learning. Ironically I thought Wing, an early case, handles this much better than its successors. Endless Waltz says right at the start that there will always be fighting among humanity. The ending + the Episode Zero manga basically depicts the majority of the cast as counterterrorism agents. Even after the end of the war and the very idealistic outcome of mobile suit disarmanment, there are clearly still problems and a need for someone to do the dirty work and deal with them. By the end Wing seems to accept that even in a world without large-scale war there is a need for force, which I don't think other shows necessarily recognize.

As for CE, they seem to have figured out that ending the war and moving on doesn't work out too well. After Destiny the original main characters actually took on positions of power themselves (of course Cagalli was there already). For all of Kira's issues, he at least understood in the final episode that the world would still have its problems and resolved to fight through it all. Who knows where it goes from here, but at least they're taking things head on instead of stepping back again. Cosmic Era doesn't offer anything fresh on war though, what holds it together in my view is the natural/coordinator dynamic. In addition to the war issues they tackle bigotry and prejudice on top of a timely topic (genetic science) which makes it feel a hell of a lot more relevant. Perhaps mixing in other kinds of social commentary like this is the future, as opposed to just beating the war drum over and over.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Alot of Gundam, especially in the last 10 years, has operated under the belief that war will end when you take away the weapons. Wing and SEED have this odd thing where they both promote and criticise this. In SEED for example, the self declared heroes removed the major threat at the time and then assumed they could sit back as everyone started hugging. The fact is, war doesn't work like that. Whilst some military campaigns are ego driven, people generally don't go to war for trivial reasons that end when you take away their toys. I myself am anti-war but I take the time to understand its nature.

I really don't want this discussion focused on Gundam but compare 0080 to SEED and you'll see a marked difference. Current directors don't seem to have anything relevant to say on the subject, nor anything credible.

Fair point. Perhaps the franchise has veered. To my mind, though, some of it, like 0080 and First are rather complex and multilayered.

[JesseCuster]

I really think that a lot of anime does a good job of dealing with war. Grave of the Fireflies is one of the best war movies I've EVER seen, animated or not. Princess Mononoke also showed the real, serious side of war.

In contrast, there are other non-anime cartoons that definitely trivialize war like G.I. Joe. The infantry on G.I. Joe is constantly under attack, bu nobody is ever hit and somebody parachutes out of every single plane that gets hit. It sends a message that people don't die in war and if that isn't trivializing war then what is?

[FinnMacCool]

Something worth keeping in mind is this: 60 years ago, Japan's military was forcibly disbanded, and even to this day they're only allowed a small Self Defense Force with great limits on its power. And, in those 60 years, Japan has never come under attack. Japan layed down pretty much all of its weapons, and nothing bad came of it; they weren't invaded and conquered by an ambitious and unscrupulous foreign power, which is one of the main arguments for keeping a standing army. So it seems to me that, from a Japanese perspective, maybe some of the idealistic pacifism in anime doesn't seem so naive, because, hey, it worked for them.

[HellCat]

I agree, although to an extent they do seem to be learning. Ironically I thought Wing, an early case, handles this much better than its successors. Endless Waltz says right at the start that there will always be fighting among humanity. The ending + the Episode Zero manga basically depicts the majority of the cast as counterterrorism agents. Even after the end of the war and the very idealistic outcome of mobile suit disarmanment, there are clearly still problems and a need for someone to do the dirty work and deal with them. By the end Wing seems to accept that even in a world without large-scale war there is a need for force, which I don't think other shows necessarily recognize.

As for CE, they seem to have figured out that ending the war and moving on doesn't work out too well. After Destiny the original main characters actually took on positions of power themselves (of course Cagalli was there already). For all of Kira's issues, he at least understood in the final episode that the world would still have its problems and resolved to fight through it all. Who knows where it goes from here, but at least they're taking things head on instead of stepping back again. Cosmic Era doesn't offer anything fresh on war though, what holds it together in my view is the natural/coordinator dynamic. In addition to the war issues they tackle bigotry and prejudice on top of a timely topic (genetic science) which makes it feel a hell of a lot more relevant. Perhaps mixing in other kinds of social commentary like this is the future, as opposed to just beating the war drum over and over.

Let me first say I always enjoy it when you get in on debates like this. You always present well thought out and thought provoking opinions.

On adding in new commentary- I think by the end of SEED, CE had already said all it could on Naturals vs Coordinators. Seriously, just about all the variations were hit- "Coordinators are freaks, we must kill them!" "We Coordinators are the next step, Naturals must die!" "Why must Naturals be so mean? We only wanted to help!" "Those Coordinators are pretty talented, they sure could help improve things" "WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!". The only avenue I think they have left to explore is the issue they've danced around- Coordinators are having trouble breeding, showing they need to intergrate with Naturals to survive. Then again, the staff are apparently ignoring that for Happy Coordinator CouplesTM to better push merchandise.

[Juu-kuchi]

Hm, in thinking about this thread...

For all it's hot-blooded and over-the-top action and eventual two-sided protagonists vs. antagonists final battle, Super Robot Wars OG: Divine Wars does not essentially trivialise war. And normally you'd think with a name like "Super Robot Wars" you'd assume it's just us vs. them and the us is always in the right.

But to answer your question, yes it can.

[rubberchicken]

SRWOG is awesome (well, OK, it's kinda dumb, but it's awesome if you love the games) but the broader conflict isn't all that realistic, at least as far as I've seen in the series. The entire concept of Bian's DC War pretty much flies in the face of that - nobody declares war hoping that the other guy will destroy him.

The anime is doing a much better job than the game when casting Ryusei as what he is - a civilian, not a soldier. He didn't suck nearly this badly in the game, and I think it's an improvement to his character.

[Juu-kuchi]

Well, regardless it is a war anime, albeit a heavily exaggerated one, yet it does not seem to be trivial at all.

But we do need more freestyling antagonists like Maier V. Branstein.

[Duke]

I agree, although to an extent they do seem to be learning. Ironically I thought Wing, an early case, handles this much better than its successors. Endless Waltz says right at the start that there will always be fighting among humanity. The ending + the Episode Zero manga basically depicts the majority of the cast as counterterrorism agents. Even after the end of the war and the very idealistic outcome of mobile suit disarmanment, there are clearly still problems and a need for someone to do the dirty work and deal with them. By the end Wing seems to accept that even in a world without large-scale war there is a need for force, which I don't think other shows necessarily recognize.
Too bad this whole point was needlessly dumbed down by the Gundam's magical non-killing abilities and that whole "Mobile Suits disappeared forever" crap.

[Mynd Hed]

Something worth keeping in mind is this: 60 years ago, Japan's military was forcibly disbanded, and even to this day they're only allowed a small Self Defense Force with great limits on its power. And, in those 60 years, Japan has never come under attack. Japan layed down pretty much all of its weapons, and nothing bad came of it; they weren't invaded and conquered by an ambitious and unscrupulous foreign power, which is one of the main arguments for keeping a standing army. So it seems to me that, from a Japanese perspective, maybe some of the idealistic pacifism in anime doesn't seem so naive, because, hey, it worked for them.

Interesting point. Of course, one could argue whether Japan would've enjoyed such relative peace and prosperity after disarmament if they didn't have A.) relatively few lucrative natural resources that would give an enemy reason to invade, and B.) a number of political and economic allies who DO have big guns, who wouldn't look too kindly on anyone messing with Japan.
But regardless of the actual historical causes and effects, I can definitely see where the PERCEPTION of a relatively peaceful and prosperous pacificistic [is that a word?] nation-state might be at work in the minds behind a lot of anime.

[GWOtaku]

posted by Duke:

Too bad this whole point was needlessly dumbed down by the Gundam's magical non-killing abilities and that whole "Mobile Suits disappeared forever" crap.I don't think the disarmament takes away from the point at all. As I was saying before, the very existence of the Preventers demonstrates the need to have a check against violence. If it's not mobile suits its guns, if not guns then knives, etc. Heck, the terrorists in "Preventer 5" got their hands on a nuke (or so they claim). Wing never pretentiously claims that everything will be fine just because mobile suits are gone.

As for non-killing, this is clearly idealistic and does require some suspension of disbelief. Specifically I have no idea how Gundam Heavyarms, which is basically a walking missile platform, can be careful to not fatally blow up things. The other suits had melee abilities though, so it's not "magic." They just played up the skill of the pilots for all it was worth, and the skill level difference is something you have to swallow to enjoy the show.

To Endless Waltz's credit though it does give the Gundam boys a very tough fight because of their refusal to go all out. In fact, technically they failed in the sense that the Gundams and Talgeese would have been destroyed without Heero's timely arrival. Seems about as realistic as idealism can get, if that makes any sense. ;)

Ed note: Forgot to mention that I doubt Heero bought into the non-killing thing. You can't tell me nobody died or got hurt when Wing ZERO blasted that bunker...

[GWOtaku]

posted by Myned Hed:

Interesting point. Of course, one could argue whether Japan would've enjoyed such relative peace and prosperity after disarmament if they didn't have A.) relatively few lucrative natural resources that would give an enemy reason to invade, and B.) a number of political and economic allies who DO have big guns, who wouldn't look too kindly on anyone messing with Japan.

But regardless of the actual historical causes and effects, I can definitely see where the PERCEPTION of a relatively peaceful and prosperous pacificistic [is that a word?] nation-state might be at work in the minds behind a lot of anime.

Yeah its definitely a factor and this is an interesting line of discussion. I think the answer to your first comment is clearly no, Japan has the benefit of significant deterrence in the form of American power and worldwide ties as one of the world's largest economies. One would think that they'd recognize that their pacifism doesn't exist in a vacuum. I think they generally do, I can't think of any good examples where its portrayed as an obvious or easy thing to accomplish. This is what they know as a culture so I'm willing to cut them some slack, although this doesn't exempt them from my primary criticism. They're capable of looking outside of their own point of view and they have to do so in order to give the issue meaningful context.

[Gatomon41]

Too bad this whole point was needlessly dumbed down by the Gundam's magical non-killing abilities and that whole "Mobile Suits disappeared forever" crap.
As GWOtaku pointed out, they didn't say "All wars ended forever". The Mobile Suits might have disappeared, but war would probably occured again, with or without MS.

[Duke]

As GWOtaku pointed out, they didn't say "All wars ended forever". The Mobile Suits might have disappeared, but war would probably occured again, with or without MS.
Yea, but considering Mobile Suits were the primary weapon for both those wars, it's hard to imagine them disappearing forever. You can't honestly expect me to believe that the next time there's a huge, gigantic war that drags out forever and ever that nobody's going to try and secretly build a Gundam or two.

It'd be like banning the use of fighter jets, and then have them disappear even into the 30th Century.

[Kyuss]

I'd say the entire human race trivializes war. It's not systematic to one thing or another. The entire body of human literature often portrays war as "grand conflict" with "shining warriors" against "fell foes." It's in the nature of humanity to demonize those they call "foe." The history is full of such acts.

[Gatomon41]

Yea, but considering Mobile Suits were the primary weapon for both those wars, it's hard to imagine them disappearing forever. You can't honestly expect me to believe that the next time there's a huge, gigantic war that drags out forever and ever that nobody's going to try and secretly build a Gundam or two.
That's because the AC-verse developed Bolos instead. :p
http://www.iislands.com/hermit/pictures/bolo/BOLO1__sm.JPG



It'd be like banning the use of fighter jets, and then have them disappear even into the 30th Century.
There's two possibilities:
1. The narator was being optimistic
2. The Law of Unitended consquences. Perhaps someelse phased the MS out. Or maybe MS got used like in G-Gundam latter.

[Lighthammer]

I think its truly hard to really comprehend what would really happen if all of a sudden one day *EVERY* weapon that had no intent other then killing was just destroyed.

Yes, there are other things that can be used as tools of killing including but not limited to tools and physical melee attacks.

The Gundam series goes to the length to create a condition where everyone identifies killing, pain and suffering with Mobile Suits. Taking away a symbol of death can be a very powerful act.

Even though these things are all unrealistic to ever occur in today's world, I think the authors of such series are trying to illustrate a valid point.

A legal saying that might bring this concept all together is "take a concept from the every day logic to illogical extremes to test how it holds up". These series do take our ethics and laws to that illogical extreme.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Yea, but considering Mobile Suits were the primary weapon for both those wars, it's hard to imagine them disappearing forever. You can't honestly expect me to believe that the next time there's a huge, gigantic war that drags out forever and ever that nobody's going to try and secretly build a Gundam or two.

It'd be like banning the use of fighter jets, and then have them disappear even into the 30th Century.

During Gundam W, there's at least one mention of Construction mobile suits. So did those get tossed away as well?

[HellCat]

The age old fan view is no. The wording was weapons known as mobile suits. A construction MS technically isn't a weapon.

[Wounded_Dragon]

The age old fan view is no. The wording was weapons known as mobile suits. A construction MS technically isn't a weapon.

So no one ever again used mobile suits as weapons, even though there are many around, because...

[HellCat]

So no one ever again used mobile suits as weapons, even though there are many around, because...

And that is part of the issue.

[GWOtaku]

Well this is an obscure issue to answer, maybe only the writers know for sure. But if mobile suits were decomissioned and all means of production brought to an end, it stands to reason that construction mobile suits would be phased out or at least die out since they wouldn't be making parts for them anymore. They aren't canon, but the Wing mangas say that old mobile suit factories were being put to other uses (its a plot point in Battlefield of Pacifsits).

The Barton Foundation did manage to put together a nice force in secret, but they were putting their plans together since before the start of the TV series. Even so, after Endless Waltz the Government obviously had a lot of motivation to make sure no one would ever try Barton's scheme again.

[Gatomon41]

The Barton Foundation did manage to put together a nice force in secret, but they were putting their plans together since before the start of the TV series. Even so, after Endless Waltz the Government obviously had a lot of motivation to make sure no one would ever try Barton's scheme again.
Espiecally since anyone with a pointed stick could try and easilly decaptiate the government.

The issue in Endless Waltz was that several key figures didn't realize that it wasn't the weapons that made war, but the people and what were their desires. By the end of the series, most people got sick and tired of open conflcit that there wern't very many reasons for the use of MS in combat. Warfare, however, could still contiune, but in different forms and intensity.