The Dark Knight Strikes Again #2 Talkback [Archive]

Tracer

01-31-2002, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Bird Boy
I'm back..and mine had PILES of this title.

Cover:

http://thejawa.com/capt_tarpals/cover2.jpg (http://thejawa.com/capt_tarpals/cover.jpg)

Review:

Wow! I'm still having a wee bit of trouble following the story line, but this issue made alot of things clearer for me.

This issue was GREAT. And I do mean great. I'm not one to write big reviews..so I'm ending this here.. :D

-BB

I got mine last night and I have to say... I am disappointed. The story seemed thrown together and erratic. The characters seemed like Caricatures of themself (When was the last time you read that batman had to remind himself to be grimm??)

I also don't buy the WW/Supes relationship thing. At least one child and another on the way!!?! (Though it does explain why he is such a whimp) Luthor has enough power to project an image of himself anywhere but still be in the dark about thier "love child".

And I am all for knowing what happened to the rest of the heroes but they seem to be thrown in Gratuitously, just to draw more attention.

Finally, I am going to say this again (repeated from a post on DK2 #1, since when did Capt. Marvel get Old? He looks to be reduced in power also. Teth adam lived for centuries without aging before he turned rogue and was stripped of his powers.

I hate to say it but he I pre-read the story in the story ike I do most my comics, I might not have invested the money in it. I REALLY hope DK2 #3 wrapps everything up because #2 was nothing but filler.

Clayface

01-31-2002, 09:19 AM

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree. I was somewhat disappointed in this issues as well, for most of the same reasons.

Bird Boy

01-31-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Clayface
Unfortunately, I'd have to agree. I was somewhat disappointed in this issues as well, for most of the same reasons.

hmm..I do agree with some of the things said, but, I'm glad there's a "filler" issue....now I can get a good idea of whats going on . #1 was great...but it left me a bit confused (maybe because I don't read the mainstream comics that often). So, I'm glad #2 is here..

Oh yeah, and pardon the picture not loading. The server I have it on is currently down....

EDIT: pics back..

-BB

Clayface

01-31-2002, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Bird Boy

hmm..I do agree with some of the things said, but, I'm glad there's a "filler" issue....now I can get a good idea of whats going on . #1 was great...but it left me a bit confused (maybe because I don't read the mainstream comics that often).

I'm curious - what did you find confusing about the first issue?

James Harvey

01-31-2002, 12:46 PM

I was a bit dissapointed by this issue, especially having to wait 2 months for the next issue. Still, the last few pages were masterfully done. I'm starting to really enjoy the coloring that Lynn Varley is doing on the title. I bet the thir dissue will tie it all togethor. I think this issue will read much better when I real all three issues at once.

Bird Boy

01-31-2002, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Clayface

I'm curious - what did you find confusing about the first issue?

well, for one, I had no idea what the story was going to be about. I had no idea why he was freeing the old super-heros and what not. I didn't know what it was all about.

But, since this ish was a Filler...I can understand it all now... :)

-BB

Clayface

01-31-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Bird Boy

well, for one, I had no idea what the story was going to be about. I had no idea why he was freeing the old super-heros and what not. I didn't know what it was all about.

But that was explained in the first issue....
And I don't really understand how this second issue would have made it any clearer.
:confused:

Kathy Kane

01-31-2002, 07:00 PM

I enjoyed the exposition in this comic like all the little things like, Batman craving a "Z" on Lex's forehead and Lara showing up and kicking some tail. But the end scene was like WOW...what's going to happen next.
As for the plot it is a bit hard to follow, I couldn't believe that WW and SM had Telepathy..??! Or the kid for that matter but what about Lois???
Also what has Batman got up his sleeve and why does he seem to want to kill supes?
I may have to read this one again to understand it.

The Guard

01-31-2002, 07:27 PM

I can make a leap of faith now and then. I can buy that Batman and Superman hate each other. I can buy that Superman is blackmailed into serving Luthor and Braniac somehow...

BUT

The art was terrible. It went from Miller's angular style to some kind of cartoony crap. Nothing close to the quality of issue #1.

I loved the scene where Batman confronted Luthor. It's his style...but wearing a RAZOR CAPE? Come on...

The "Z" was cool, but...not Batman.

After the Luthor mission...Batman putting his feet up? Talking about the "best part of the job"? I can see him THINKING it. But SAYING it?

Superman gave up. What the heck? Batman beating him to a pulp made him give up? And then sex with Diana makes him all better? The sunflower thing from DKR was awesome, but...sex wirth Diana can rebuild his costume? And make his wounds go away?

Batman used the word "Kapos" to describe the Justice League. That's worse than using "Mook" to describe Bane.

It would appear that Batman is having fun destroying things. He said as much.

How could Plastic Man kill Batman, Catgirl, and Elongated Man? When did he get this...incredible power?

I was disappointed not to see any of Arhkam's denizens. All we know is that The Riddler and Solomon Grundy are still alive.

If that new "Joker" wasn't wearing a Legion costume, then I'm an idiot. Looked almost like Mon-El's...but what was that SECOND costume "Joker" was wearing? With the "E"?

Superman looked an awful lot like Captain Marvel at times.

Batman and Barry arguing:

"Man, you're as THICK as CLARK is!...This is MY show! MY War!"

and then...

"It sure as hell HAS!....we BLEW it Barry! We screwed up!"

Why does Batman sound so...dumb?

I HATE what happened to J'onn. The Martian Manhunter has become a sniveling, whiney weakling?

"Fuggedaboutit"?

WHY DID J'ONN J'ONNZ SAY THAT???

"It's gonna be fire what does me in. Fire."?

"Fire what does me in"???

Those damn nanorobots better have made him into the idiot he was portrayed as.

The ending. I'm confused. So Batman is going to put the world's young people in tights and cause more trouble? Is he the villain?

It seems to me that there are too many characters thrown in for the heck of it. Some of the characters that were given actual personalities didn't get one this time out. James Olsen for example.

Batman has become obsessed with retribution? I would take this to mean killing and punishment.

This is totally different characterization than DKR.

The raised fist...made sense when Batman was going to right wrongs, etc...but...whatever he's doing...thousands will die...and he's just not Batman if he causes that to happen.

I gave it a chance. No more. I won't read this anymore. I can't stand to see the heroes I love treated like this. Turned into weak-minded, morally bankrupt losers. This would not happen. Not in the worst world there could ever be. They are heroes for a reason. And whatever Miller thinks they are...it's not what I care to read about.

FLIPMODE

01-31-2002, 10:35 PM

To some extent I agree with the Guard. But I'll read the Next issue, Just Like LOTR, I hate when I dont see the Full story.

This book was sooo wishy washy. First off, at times it seems Like a Parody of these heroes, which is slap in the face to the feel of the Original DKR. At least that gave you the feel of a possible depressing future. Now certain things have seemed to be tampered with just for comic relief. Batman calls Catgirl robin, Im thinking, "Is he Cenile?", If so, he' needs to Sit his butt down, and call it quits.
Wait, let me talk about the Good first. I Liked Batman's realization that there are bigger problems like government influence, compared to the common thug, which he should have been addressing before. HOWEVER, I think Batman allready knows this, It's not like Today's Batman is totally ignorant to this.

And Plastic man is capable of harm, he can actually turn into the actual thing he desires, like a knife, or a Tank, it's only his silly cartoon past that clouds that makes people think he's weak.

Ok the rest is pretty much Bad.
I dont like the fact that they kille Martian Manhunter, in his debut in the book. First off he was ugly as heck, I thought it was Ben Grimm. Then he's incinorated. The end. That's a great disrespect for the character, that was such a waste of time, he should have been Left out. And j'on was close to Bats. I have a feeling that part 3 will make some of the stupid things look smart, but let me discuss the mistakes that can never be taken back.

Back characterization. Batman seem very careless. And I hope this ends the whole DKR craze, because after this run, Im looking forward to the WHOLE idea being Forgotten. Why? Because if something new about DC's future does'nt come out, the more this Miller Idea will be accepted. And Im looking forward to DC's future turning out different than this.
I like Batman more than Supes, but even Batman's true self loss meaning within the Miller stories, as well as Supes. So, It's time for another Overhyped, DC Future book, that captures the essence of our favorite characters without disgracing, just because they're old. Remember with age comes, wisdom.

DerekPowers

01-31-2002, 11:19 PM

i loved this book!!! at first i thought the whole critique on globalization was alittle cliche, but it turned out that it worked really well.

the art was great, the coloring was great (how AWESOME was the two page of batman w/ the digital sky and batsignal...sweeeeeet!!!!)

I love the new supergirl. I loved it.

spoilers below, youve been warned....

a few complaints though....first, was there a point to having mm and the wanabe joker?? hopefully more light will be shed on this in the next issue.

also, i felt so teased with the arkam part. i was sooo hoping to see ivy or clayface or someone, but nada. incorporating more batman rogues would be perfect, hopefully we'll get a look inside the asylm in the next issue.

itd be great if lex unleashed all of them to try and stop all the heros. that would be great. anyway, i was not dissapointed, and am greatly looking foward to the conclusion. peace!

Tracer

02-01-2002, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by FLIPMODE

...And Plastic man is capable of harm, he can actually turn into the actual thing he desires, like a knife, or a Tank, it's only his silly cartoon past that clouds that makes people think he's weak....

This was another problem I had with the book and the current JLA for that matter. To the best of my knowledge (Please someone prove me wrong so the pain will go away!!) PlasticMan has always been similar in powers to the elongated man and Reed Richards. (Stretch really far, can form basic shapes, can not be shot or stabbed, etc..) Only after the lame TV show could he all of a sudden become complex items with moving parts (planes, cars, rockets, etc...) One of the creators brought that idea over without thinking about one thing we were to young to think about on satuday mornings: If he can become a rocket and launch himself, what is powering him for fuel? If he shapeshifts into a car, how can the tires move without eventually twisting so tight it snaps off. The tires are still an attached part of his body. Even better, speed is not a part of his powers, how can he move the tires fast enough to go faster than he can in regular mode?

At best he can LOOK like a car, plane, rocket but he should not be able to mimic thier abilitites. Next thing they'll tell me is if he looks like superman, he gets his strength and heat vision too.

The thing that set him apart from the Elongated Man and Richards was he truely is insane. A Nut and good for comic releif. The other two played straightmen.

Salvor

02-01-2002, 01:29 PM

Ok what I'm about to say is like swearing but I'm gonna say it anyway: the art was horrible! I mean, let's face it, Miller can't handle proportions any longer, plus it seems like he forgot what the word "background" means. Other major flaws: Bruce Wayne looks like Lex Luthor, way way too bulky hands, paint shop pro 1.0 colors by Lynn Varley (god, 300 wasn't that long ago!), Batman sounding like a 10-year-old kid

and so on...

All in all, a major disappointment. The story is pretty good though. What a shame... I dunno, I (along with many other people - including critically-acclaimed artists I wouldn't wanna get involved in this :)) just have the feeling Miller is making fun of both DC and the fans (the "look how well such a poorly drawn comic can sell" kind of fun). Such a provocative attitude wouldn't be too surprising on his behalf.

FLIPMODE

02-01-2002, 07:22 PM

If he can become a rocket and launch himself, what is powering him for fuel? If he shapeshifts into a car, how can the tires move without eventually twisting so tight it snaps off.

Ha! Your absolutely right Tracer. It makes no sense. And when you put it that way, it just sounds stupid, for him to do some things.

And another dumb thing, I just realized, as you shed light on the matter is, his molecular composition stays the same, so even if he turned into a huge anvil, he should still only be as heavy as...what...180 pounds? And he should still only be as hard as...well, hard plastic, Not steel.

Good point Tracer.

Someone who should be better at those things should be, Metamorpho.

Domino

02-02-2002, 01:21 PM

This is the worst piece of guano I've read since...well, since 1986! Miller proves once again that he's some kind of ultra-left wing anarchist who hates superheroes. If he hates them so much, I wish he'd do all of us who like them a favor, and not work on them! Especially Batman!

Fuggedaboutit, indeed.

Karkull

02-02-2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by The Guard
Superman gave up. What the heck? Batman beating him to a pulp made him give up? And then sex with Diana makes him all better?

Couldn't hurt, ;).

I get the impression that Miller did this series because he was offered a lot of money. It's good, but not as good as the original.

The Guard

02-02-2002, 10:50 PM

What I meant was, it made his COSTUME all better. Good lord he's brave. I would NEVER have sex with Wonder Woman. Ouch.

Clayface

02-02-2002, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by The Guard

If that new "Joker" wasn't wearing a Legion costume, then I'm an idiot. Looked almost like Mon-El's...but what was that SECOND costume "Joker" was wearing? With the "E"?

Yeah, I'd really like to know who that was supposed to be. Did anyone notice the face art he had - looked like an ace symbol form a deck of cards - could he have been a member of the Royal Flush gang?

The Guard

02-03-2002, 01:30 AM

Those were Element Lad costumes I'm told. And that was a spade over his eye. I'm guessing it's either Changling, or something related to Changling. He's too smart to be a Bizzaro-type clone.

Domino

02-03-2002, 08:39 AM

The first costume he was wearing, on pp. 44-46 was a silver age Cosmic Boy costume, and the one he had on pp. 62-63 was indeed a silver age Element Lad costume. Another Legion reference was a random guy wearing a Sun Boy t-shirt on p. 33.

The one that the Joker wannabe had on p. 55 was apparently a Spider-Man costume. Ironic that he was killing the Creeper, another Steve Ditko character while he was wearing it. At least the Question, yet another Ditko character, was spared from its pathetic rampage.

Memphis Bleek

02-03-2002, 05:46 PM

This was a really good read. It never a bad thing when bats lays the smackdown on Lex. I love all of the infighting. Wonderwoman and Supes have a daughter and another child on the way awesome (Clark Kent you could populate a planet, said WW). Green Arrow calm, cool, and collected as always. The scandly clad vixens such as Black Canary was perfect. It really showed how sex sells. The Creeper cameo was stroke of genius. The Dark Strikes Again seems a possible future for are Earth 1 heroes.

halinar

02-04-2002, 12:40 PM

I must say if this is the futrue of the book then the 15 years was not worth the wait. The first one was pretty good. Good intro and I could choke down Miller's bad art because it kinda worked.

Then comes issue two. (8$ later). This looks horrible. My 5 year old draws like that! I couldn't tell who the MM was at first glance. I thought it was some funky green version of Thing that had crossed over from Marvel. Also, what's up with the giant frog robot....common. And that's just on the bad art.

As far as the story goes...what is the point of all this? We are in book 2 of 3 and I'm really not sure what the point is besides trying to overthrow the new kingpin looking luthor. The first series had a beautiful story. This one is just painful.

Plus look back at the first series. The big one page splash pages were used for high drama/action shots and were limited to 1 or two a book. Now we get 4 pages back to back of nasty looking art of superman and wonderwoman doing the deed in midair. oooook.

Color me disappointed

Chris, the other white meat.

Russkafin

02-04-2002, 03:52 PM

I like it so far but it doesn't hold a candle to the original. You all bring up very valid criticisms... I feel like Miller didn't really think the story all the way through, and at some points just kind of said, "How can I throw this character into the mix?"

One thing that really struck me as odd, and I was wondering if anyone else felt this way as well... if I understand the Arkham thing correctly... the inmates took over the Asylum and had hostages in there, and have been torturing/eating them for the last five years? Wouldn't someone have done something by now? In real life if a bunch of psychos took over an asylum and had hostages inside, would everyone just leave them to their own devices for five years? Wouldn't the SWAT team show up and try to help those poor people who are trapped inside?

Tracer

02-05-2002, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Russkafin
...One thing that really struck me as odd, and I was wondering if anyone else felt this way as well... if I understand the Arkham thing correctly... the inmates took over the Asylum and had hostages in there, and have been torturing/eating them for the last five years? Wouldn't someone have done something by now? In real life if a bunch of psychos took over an asylum and had hostages inside, would everyone just leave them to their own devices for five years? Wouldn't the SWAT team show up and try to help those poor people who are trapped inside?

You brought up a good point, but it really doesn't stop there. There are numerous parts in both books that leave me scratching my head. In the first series, we get the impression that most of the heroes simply stepped down or went to defend other worlds. He mentions some resistance but how did we get from DK1 to DK2? We have VERY Powerful Metas captured and unmissed by their friends, and those who knew just turned their heads like cowards.

How were these heroes captured in the first place without causing war? How did they know their identities? No one knew Barry was the Flash, outside of the JLA and a few close friends.

What happened to the villains who were also Metas? You drop the heroes and the villains Win. These guys would never just roll over, not even for Luthor.

What happened in Arkham is just ridiculous!! Think of who is in there now.. Who besides the Joker (who is dead since DK1) and Killer Croc is even near that level of insanity to eat people and be satisfied with simply taking over the building? Speaking of the Joker… Didn’t he get “proclaimed sane” by Arkham doctors in DK1? If that is true, Miller is saying the “takeover happens after DK1, and if that is true how did they get Plasticman into Arkham? Is he saying they were still hunting heroes even after the events of DK1?

I am seriously thinking that after the last book was made, someone put Miller in a dark closet somewhere and would only let him out only if he did this book. I guess we all wished too hard and got what we asked for cause I know my mouth was watering for a new dark knight book. So Far, I am sorry I asked for it, the more I think about it, the more it tarnishes DK1. It is like watching any other Highlander movie after watching the first.

Apache Chief

02-05-2002, 11:10 PM

Junk. I'm not sure what bothers me more. That Miller made this P.O.S., or that buy the time it's over I'll have paid 24 bucks for it.

The Guard

02-06-2002, 12:55 AM

Umm...you could just NOT buy the third issue. Like I'm doing.

DerekPowers

02-06-2002, 01:01 AM

im surprised at the number of people who didnt like dk2. what did you expect it to be? i knew it wasnt going to be as good as the first (how could it, no joker after all), but its still an awesome comic.

i loved the ww and superman ehemm, mokey love scene. that was pretty cool, and their daughter was awesome.

the one thing thats alittle odd about this is its not as much of a batman story as the first. the first had alfred, batman, robin (carey), harvey dent, joker, selina kyle, commisioner gordon, and whoever else im missing.

dk2 doesnt feel so much like a batman story, but actually a jl story.

i still like it, but i wish theyd have more batman characters in the 3rd part. that arkam scene was a disappointment cause i want to see some bat villian (if hes going to through in every other character from the dc universe he should atleast include some bat rogues).

and why hasnt dk books mentioned what happened to dick grayson or timm drake? or barbara gordon? and i really like the ww/superman relationship, but i really think he should atleast mention what happened to lois.

but overall great book, i really enjoyed it. peace.

Salvor

02-06-2002, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by DerekPowers

i loved the ww and superman ehemm, mokey love scene. that was pretty cool, and their daughter was awesome.
I thought that particular sex scene was utterly ridiculous... such awfully huge splash pages drawn as if FM spent around 2 minutes on each of them...
and the ending? "Lara, what sort of world have I given you?" Come on, this kind of cliche might work if only the story made ANY sense! The whole WW/Supes/Lara thing was -to me- completely out of place. Certainly not what I'd expect from a decent Batman -or even JL- type of story.

Samhaine

02-06-2002, 05:56 PM

I just finished the book, and wanted to chime in.

Now, right around the time the first issue of this series came out, I reread TDKR. And, let me tell you, it was a little slow in the middle. I started out great, it ended great, and the middle, while really, really good, wasn't as great as the other parts. That's the sense I'm getting here. The beginning was great, the middle was kinda eh, and the ending should prove better. I hope.

I have to say, I didn't like the number of splash pages in this one. The first issue took me a good while to read. This one took me half the time. And the coloring was starting to get on my nerves this time around. Although, it probably wouldn't have had there been less splash pages, or at least if they weren't all in a row.

And I was pretty sure that Arkham was still alive and kickin' in TDKR. So, if it's been about 3 years since then, how has Arkham been in the can for 5?

I love Plastic Man. Once I get the money I'm gonna buy the archive editions. This is just a great character. So I was estatic to see him show up. And not only that, they said he was dangerous to boot! I liked that, and he meeting with Elongated Man. Something I'd wanted to see for awhile now. And yes, I atested MM's speech patterns to the nanite thingies. Only plausible reason I could think of.

They could touch upon DG, but not TD. Tim never became Robin in this world. TDKR was pre-crisis, which is why Barry's still alive, Hal Jordan is still GL, etc. I personally am enjoying the Silver Age characters.

The ending: wasn't a big fan. Why do we need more teenagers in costume??

Let's see if the whole series will be more coherent once finished. I plan on reading them all in one sitting once issue #3 comes out.

I just have to say, though, that this is not TDKR. It was never meant to be. Although comparisons to it were a given, I think they're out of place, because this is a whole different decade, and the book is focusing on a whole lot of different problems.

Jack Napier

02-09-2002, 12:09 AM

I found issue two to be absolutely horrible...

The first issue was amazing, I was very skeptic about the Dark Knight sequel from day one. After reading the first issue I was confident that Frank Miller was going to do an excelent job...

One month and a half later...

I pick up my copy of DK 2 issue 2 and read it...

It stunk...

It was all over the place with a story line that I found hard to follow...

And I thought this book was about Batman...

I just hope the next issue ends well

Jack Napier

Sugar Daddy

02-09-2002, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by bloodone
And I was pretty sure that Arkham was still alive and kickin' in TDKR. So, if it's been about 3 years since then, how has Arkham been in the can for 5?

I have been wondering the same exact thing.

Weird thing is, the batboys, or whatever, speak like the mutants did, but the mutants in tdkr would never join up with the bat. at least imo.

Also, elongated man is different than plastic man? what?

Clayface

02-09-2002, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Sugar Daddy

Weird thing is, the batboys, or whatever, speak like the mutants did, but the mutants in tdkr would never join up with the bat. at least imo.

Well, since the characters were created by Miller, I'd say he has the authority to say what they would or would not do. And according to him, the mutants did join up with Bats.

Also, elongated man is different than plastic man? what?

Yep, two different characters.

Sugar Daddy

02-09-2002, 07:16 PM

coolness

Palin Dromos

02-10-2002, 12:09 AM

In DKR book 1 page 15 the first panel reads "Arkham Home for the Emotionally Challenged"

Now to extrapolate a little if the Arkham Assylum take over occured 5 years before DKSA and therefore 2 years before DKR than it should be noted that Batman was retired at the time and all the other hero's, except Supes, were out of commision, and while in theory Supes could have done something he was taking orders from the White House and they didn't order him to become involved, he was supposed to stay out of the public eye.

The fact that in DKSA it sasy that no one bothered with the take over is a reference to the policy of "not negotiating with terrorists" and solidifies the idea of complete governemental appathy Miller is has pushed in both series.

So anyway if the Asylum was taken over and left to it's own devices, it can be surmissed that the Arkham Home is a different facility and that Two-Face and Joker were held there because they had probably broken out of the Asylum prior to the take over so they were put in the home when recaptured. One can also assume that Plastic Man's presence had to do with his (assumed) refusal to retire like other heroes (As was alluded to in DKR and DKSA) so the gov labeled him crazy and threw him in the looney bin.
These are just my thoughts on the subject.

Sugar Daddy

02-10-2002, 05:22 PM

A big problem with DK2, imo, is the backgrounds. There are a lot of bright colors, and that doesnt fit the comic. The comic is supposedly set in a dark period, and the art in tdkr worked, because there werent a lot of things like red backgrounds. Whatever

Clayface

02-10-2002, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Sugar Daddy
A big problem with DK2, imo, is the backgrounds. There are a lot of bright colors, and that doesnt fit the comic. The comic is supposedly set in a dark period, and the art in tdkr worked, because there werent a lot of things like red backgrounds. Whatever

Well, you can chalk that up to Miller's "new outlook" on Batman and superheros, as well as all the fanboys that have complained over the years that TDKR was too dark and ruined comics. Frank has decided that he didn't like the impact TDKR had on the comic industry and is trying to undo some of that with DK2 - thus the lighter feel and lighter colors.

Sugar Daddy

02-10-2002, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Clayface

Well, you can chalk that up to Miller's 'new outlook" on Batman and superheros, and all the fanboys that have complained over the years that TDKR was too dakr and ruined comics. Frank has decided that he didn't like the impact TDKR had on the comic industry and is trying to undo some of that with DK2 - thus the lighter feel and lighter colors.

that sucks

Samhaine

02-10-2002, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Sugar Daddy
Weird thing is, the batboys, or whatever, speak like the mutants did, but the mutants in tdkr would never join up with the bat. at least imo.
But they did join up with Batman, when he defeated the mutant leader. At the end of TDKR, the last page, with Bruce, Robin, and all those little boys, well, those were the mutants. So, there was a reason for them to be known as Batboys in TDKSA.

Sugar Daddy

02-11-2002, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by bloodone

But they did join up with Batman, when he defeated the mutant leader. At the end of TDKR, the last page, with Bruce, Robin, and all those little boys, well, those were the mutants. So, there was a reason for them to be known as Batboys in TDKSA.

I thought those were just the sons of the batman

The Guard

02-11-2002, 12:24 AM

Well...sons of the Batman WERE Mutants. The Mutants split into them and also the Nazi people. But at the end of DKR, Batman addressed SOB, AND Mutants.

"Our weapons are quiet. Precise. In time I will teach you how to use them."

"Let's ride."

Maxie Zeus

02-11-2002, 09:34 PM

I am not a huge comic book reader. There's something about the artform that I just don't "get." So anything I say should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

That being said, I really liked TDKR and was really looking forward to the sequel. Miller seems to be someone striving for cultural or social significance, and while I'm usually skeptical of those kinds of pretensions I'm willing to go along for the ride. TDKR was interesting on that level mostly because it still worked thru Bruce's psychology: This was a man who had tried to give up being Batman, and lived in a society that had tried to do without its superheroes. Bruce's pain and horror was a mirror for society's, and Miller could get at the world's pathologies by concentrating on Batman's. Which is why read Batman books.

This sequel, though. . . I don't know what's going thru Batman's head, even though (in this book) he spends a lot of time pontificating. His pat little speeches about the world's failures and the need to do something are awfully disquieting: They sound like the rantings who is convinced that the world is irredeemable without a bloodbath, and that he's the only one with the intelligence, morals and outlook to purge it of its guilt. That's not the Batman I believe in.

Domino referred to the heroes as "weak-minded" and "morally bankrupt." I'm tempted to agree. This is what I imagine Osama sounds like.

A lot of it has to do with the fact that I don't know what kind of moral geography Miller thinks he's got the heroes in. When he has such clear and obvious caricatures of George Will, George Stephanopoulos, Chris Matthews, Cokie Roberts and Robert Novak woven into the opening and defending the corrupt Luthor-Brainiac thugocracy (and when Luthor's bureaucratic goons carry names like "Exxon" and "Starbucks," it sure looks like he's trying to paint the present world as being equivalently ugly and brutal, and is trying to justify its violent overthrow.

On the other hand, maybe he is simply trying to extrapolate from a world that contains these kind of bizarre heroes onto the radical dystopia that they might find themselves in. Then Luthor-Brainiac is not supposed to be a metaphor for anything, it's just the evil mirror image of the outrageously overdrawn good guys. After all, if you're going to bring all the DC superheroes together in his vision, you're going to need a massive evil for them to combat. (In much the same way, TDKR moved from the streets of Gotham to nuclear threat when Superman was introduced.)

What's disheartening in that case, though, is that Miller hasn't got a comforting vision of what superheroes are for. Batman seems mostly offended by the way the heroes are asked to invisibly help humanity; it's degrading. But what then is their presumed role? If it's not to serve humanity, then is it to rule them? Are these heroes supposed to be glorified in public so that the common folk will not just be grateful to them, but will glorify them? I don't think you have to be a Frederic Wertham to find the idea that some humans are naturally superior to others, and so should be put on a pedestal above the rest of us, morally troubling.

Which takes me to Bruce's new look. He does look an awful lot like Luthor. And since his outlook is hardly less fascistic than Luthor's, part 2 makes me wonder if we're not being set up for a dramatic reversal. Could it be that the real and intended villain of TDKSB will turn out to be . . . Batman?