B:TAS/TNBA Finale?

[S.C.B]

Howdy all. I was listening to the 'Brave New Metropolis' commentary, and the bit where Bruce Timm discusses the way the shows used to be written got me thinking. The creative team didn't starts thinking in terms of season arcs and finales until JL/JLU (S:TAS 'Legacy' was just a happy accident), and shows before that were written in a 'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we did this?' way.

So, the question I pose to you is; If they had been thinking in terms of season arcs and finales for the earlier shows, what would you have wanted them to include? Would you have even had arcs and finales?

I'm aware of the Darkseid arc from S:TAS, but that wasn't quite the same as the Cadmus/Legion arcs; the latter required you to watch earlier episodes to fully understand what was going on, whereas S:TAS filled in the blanks for the most part.

Here are mine:

First off, no season long arcs. That worked for JLU because of the expansive roster. With only two or three main characters, I think it would have been hard to keep things moving.

B:TAS: I would like something that involved Phantasm's return. It would seem a good way to round everything out, and if it involved Robin and Batgirl, it would allow them to see a different side of Batman.

TNBA: Something that required all of the Gotham Knights to band together and defend Gotham by themselves. Maybe a power outage or mass breakout would be called for (was that the basic story behind 'No Man's Land'? I haven't read much Batman). This would allow the tension between the characters to come to a head (Bruce/Dick, Dick/Barbara), while giving others a time to shine in dark and challenging situations (Tim). It would also allow all the Gotham rogues to reappear one last time.

S:TAS: Something that incorporated the Clark/Lois sub-plot from (gulp) Brainiac Attacks. Just something to make Clark address his feelings for Lois and what the consequences of being with her would be. Using Brainiac would be okay, I suppose. Anything other than Darkseid would work for this.

Either that, or something that directly deals with the aftermath of 'Legacy'. Maybe Supes could consider giving up the cape, but input from all the heroes he's met (and inspired - Dr Fate would be a must) makes him reconsider, setting the way for Justice League.

BB: I think BB got its finale in ROTJ.

Comments?

[DisneyBoy]

I think one of the strengths of the original B:TAS run was that it wasn't about arcs in the JLU sense. Continuity was always honored, and characters developped over time, but the writers really didn't talk about it or make an effort to put it in out there. I remember when TNBA started up and I was shocked by all the redesigns and character progressions. Dick and Bruce have a bad relationship!?! Why? Well, then I took out my tapes and rewatched older episodes like "Second Chance" and "Robin's Reconing" and it started to make sense. When Nightwing says "It was building for a long time", it's a realization we have along with him. Not because the writers were beating us over the head with it, but because it really was there, buried beneath the surface of what appeared to be just a kid's show.

In JLU, everything was reused and reincorporated into the Cadmus arc, and because the series was so tightly woven, some of the bad stuff made a second appearance as well. Galatea was totally under-written and came off as flat, despite potential. The Ultimen were over-written at first, and then used as fodder for fight sequences upon their return. The Annihilator seemed so cool, and then was disposed of before Cadmus could make use of it. The Dark Heart was overall useless in both it's episodes. Did Brainiac and Luthor really do anything with it in "Divided We Fall" that Brainiac couldn't have done otherwise? If the guy didn't need the Dark Heart to make the LuthorCorp Building go black and techno-ish with tentacles, he didn't really need it to create those Justice Lorders either.

So there you have it. Arcs can be very cool, but only if all their parts are well balanced and developped right as well. It's a tricky act.

As for what I would have liked to see, I think JL Season One/Two would have been a great time to develop the Lois and Clark stuff that Brainiac Attacks (which I've yet to see) touched on. And yes, seeing the TNBA team deal with a big problem would have also been nice. But we did get some of both of those already, so I'm not going to be too upset about it.

[sdp]

I have to agree,
BTAS was so great because each episode was like an entire 'mini movie', it felt epic, it didn't need an arc. the story was done at then end.

[Aldrius]

Well, they could never really have arcs... but a nice little two-parter involving Ra's, the Joker and Andrea would be really cool. They had a bunch of two-parters, a large one, that doesn't necessarily wrap it up, but is really awesome and explosive would be cool.

[Caswin]

BB: I think BB got its finally in ROTJ.Your typo makes me wince. >.o

Anyway, I haven't seen much of the latter two seasons, but Batman Beyond definitely had a story arc in season one. And B:TAS arguably did have something of a story arc, however short, starting with the teaser stuff in "Off Balance" and climaxing with his first world-threatening crisis in "The Demon's Quest: Part II".

[S.C.B]

Your typo makes me wince. >.o

Ditto. The worst part is that I didn't notice it until you pointed it out.

[Donomark]

TNBA could have a finale if you re-arrange the episode orders. If you watch Beware the Creeper, Judgement Day, Chemistry, and Mad Love all before watching Legends of the Dark Knight or Over the Edge, either one of those episodes could have been great finales.

[Wolf Boy2]

Justice League season 2 had my favorite arc.

Yes, it was an arc. But unlike JLU, they didn't smash you over the head with "OMG something big is coming" references.

JL s2 was (IMO) the high point of the DCAU. It had nearly every significant Superman and Batman rogue (even if it was just in cameo or reference) and the individual characters were explored really well. The finale, Starcrossed, was a self-contained story in the action/adventure sence, but it was the culmination of the character arcs which had been building all season.

JLU s1 & 2 were a bit disorgainzed, as it introduced a myriad of characters yet focused almost exclusively on Superman, Luthor and S:TAS lore. JLU s3 was a massive DC comics fanservice, introducing more supervillians than it could handle, only to end the season (and the DCAU) with ... guess what... another S:TAS throwback, with Supes and Darksied hitting each other again.

B:TAS had a finale for every character arc. "Pretty Poison" to "House and Garden." "On Leather Wings" to "Second Chances." "Off Balance" to "Showdown." "Heart of Ice" to "Subzero." "Feet of Clay" to "Mudslide." Really, B:TAS was several interlocking series, with several different finales.

S:TAS had major continuity, with the last episode ("Legacy") directely referencing the first episode ("Last Son of Krypton"). When Superman was brainwashed, scenes with Ma and Pa Kent in Smallville were changed to scenes with Darkseid and Granny. Also, the Superman/Luthor arc and the Superman/Lois arc (both started in the pilot) were brought to a satisfactory close. Even though "Legacy" wasn't intended to be the finale, it did a fine job and would be damn hard to beat.

TNBA... alas, TNBA. I have mixed feelings about this show, since, while awesome, it was never meant to exist. It had a lot of good stuff, but it is also the ultimate example of why sequels don't work. It undid all of B:TAS's endings, ressurecting Clayface and making Poison Ivy into a heatless green monster (totally divergent from the depressed, sterile woman in BTAS). Moreover, TNBA recycled schitck from B:TAS and really didn't improve the characters. Worst of all, TNBA was cut off before it could finish anything, leaving all of the stories open (except maybe for Ra's Al Ghul).

[EazyV]

Yeah well both shows did have an "ending" to things Batman had yet to finish. On the last episode of B:TAS, Batgirl, Catwoman, and Robin put Roland Dagget in jail. Even though Dagget's presence lessened as the show progressed, I think the creators were going to use him as a Lex Luthor type villian for Batman. That staredown at the end of Crimealley always made me think that, with him giving Bat that arrogant stare like "Im untouchable". The series ended with Dagget finally being put to jail for good....and it was kind of a transition of how the series was headed with Batgirl's second guest appearence and Selina's changing of attitude.

The New Adventures ended with Batman's final episode with Two-Face. It's one of the few the references the past and it also ends with Two-Face going completely mad, with him stating himself guilty. That was pretty much the end of that. And I liked how it was one of the few Bat solo episodes too for the last one. I always felt that episode was the closest to getting the feeling of the original series.

[SuperBat]

Justice League season 2 had my favorite arc.

Yes, it was an arc. But unlike JLU, they didn't smash you over the head with "OMG something big is coming" references.
I assume you mean John and Shayera?


JL s2 was (IMO) the high point of the DCAU. It had nearly every significant Superman and Batman rogue (even if it was just in cameo or reference) and the individual characters were explored really well. The finale, Starcrossed, was a self-contained story in the action/adventure sence, but it was the culmination of the character arcs which had been building all season.
The only thing I can disagree with is sort of a contradiction to what you said. Perhaps JLU spoiled me, but I get this feeling when watching JL's second season now that there was something big coming, and when it comes in the form of "Starcrossed," it's wow... and then it's over. An outstanding three-parter, but nothing more. The only consolation for me was that JLU felt like the payoff JL had been building to, just as JL Season 2 felt like the payoff Season 1 had been building to.


JLU s1 & 2 were a bit disorgainzed, as it introduced a myriad of characters yet focused almost exclusively on Superman, Luthor and S:TAS lore. JLU s3 was a massive DC comics fanservice, introducing more supervillians than it could handle, only to end the season (and the DCAU) with ... guess what... another S:TAS throwback, with Supes and Darksied hitting each other again.
Thank goodness for that. The STAS connection was one of my favorite things about JL/U, and that, to me, is part of what made it great. Batman's gotten so much attention throughout the years (and deservingly so) that it was nice to see the storyline lean in Superman's direction. The Joker was sorely missed, for sure, but Luthor, Darkseid, and Brainiac are far more capable than any other villains they might have placed in a finale.

[Wolf Boy2]

I assume you mean John and Shayera?
Well, they were part of it. Batman and Superman also developed in their relationship, from the bitter allies of "Twilight" to the friends in "Starcrossed." But, yes, John and Shayera were the most obvious.


The New Adventures ended with Batman's final episode with Two-Face. It's one of the few the references the past and it also ends with Two-Face going completely mad, with him stating himself guilty. That was pretty much the end of that. And I liked how it was one of the few Bat solo episodes too for the last one. I always felt that episode was the closest to getting the feeling of the original series.
However, "Mad Love" aired last, and was (IMO) a better finale.

As for B:TAS, "Deep Freeze" left a big, gaping hole in the story which got a good conclusion in "Subzero." "Subzero" really was the end of B:TAS (I know it came out in 1998, after TNBA started, but keep in mind that it was SUPPOSED to come out before TNBA).

[EazyV]

Well, they were part of it. Batman and Superman also developed in their relationship, from the bitter allies of "Twilight" to the friends in "Starcrossed." But, yes, John and Shayera were the most obvious.


However, "Mad Love" aired last, and was (IMO) a better finale.

As for B:TAS, "Deep Freeze" left a big, gaping hole in the story which got a good conclusion in "Subzero." "Subzero" really was the end of B:TAS (I know it came out in 1998, after TNBA started, but keep in mind that it was SUPPOSED to come out before TNBA).

Dude the movie came out before TNBA started. I remember it was before. But I was thinking the same thing after I posted. Subzero is a good ending too

[SuperBat]

Dude the movie came out before TNBA started. I remember it was before. But I was thinking the same thing after I posted. Subzero is a good ending too
Nope. Uh-uh. Its release was somewhere around the time of "Batman & Robin" in theaters, as there was Mr. Freeze promotions everywhere. Sub-Zero came out on March 17, 1998, while TNBA started in 1997. "Cold Comfort" was even aired before Sub-Zero, on Oct. 11 of '97. (I checked World's Finest for the dates.) So TNBA was in full swing by the time the movie came out.

[Wolf Boy2]

Nope. Uh-uh. Its release was somewhere around the time of "Batman & Robin" in theaters, as there was Mr. Freeze promotions everywhere. Sub-Zero came out on March 17, 1998, while TNBA started in 1997. "Cold Comfort" was even aired before Sub-Zero, on Oct. 11 of '97. (I checked World's Finest for the dates.) So TNBA was in full swing by the time the movie came out.
I can't stress enough, however, that "Subzero" was written BEFORE "Cold Comfort", despite their release dates. "Subzero" is part of B:TAS, not a bridge between B:TAS and TNBA.

[SuperBat]

I can't stress enough, however, that "Subzero" was written BEFORE "Cold Comfort", despite their release dates. "Subzero" is part of B:TAS, not a bridge between B:TAS and TNBA.
Oh, it absolutely comes first. I don't see anything wrong with viewing it as a bridge between the two series, but it is most certainly a part of BTAS. Can't deny that. The "bridge" part would only be for Mr. Freeze's story, and perhaps the Dick/Barbera relationship that we later see in "Old Wounds."