Series finales?

[Caswin]

So I'm in the very, very early stages of making a website devoted to all the great (and not-so-great) series finales over the years. Basically, right now, I'm just compiling a big ol' list. As it turns out, I need help with that. No, I haven't seen anywhere near most of these finales. And no, I don't have any experience with site-making.

Yes, this might be a bad idea. I'll worry about that later.

In the meantime, this is my question to all who have seen these shows all the way through: which Marvel cartoons had an episode that could be construed in any way as an ending? We all know the classics; it's inevitable after hanging around here for more than half an hour: Farewell, Spider-Man, Graduation Day, Hands of the Mandarin, Doomsday, Ascension, Mind Games. Already accounted for.

But I wonder - what about the other shows? Spidey, in his many other animated forms? How about Hulk? Finales, any of them?

Basically, I don't know what I'm doing here. If nothing else, I wouldn't mind stirring up a general discussion about series finales in general, but I'd like some names. No summaries necessary. Help?

[Bones Justice]

One of my favorites, Spider-man The New Animated Series, the episodes Mind Games parts one and two:


Peter Parker decides to give up being Spider-man. It's kind of like the classic comic story when he gave up being Spidey. Of course, it would also be a great set-up for another season, but if you knew nothing else about Spider-man, it could be seen as a conclusion to his adventures, as well.

[90'sCartoonMan]

I'm sure you'll do fine, Caswin, and I'd like to see the finished project. Since I am a man of 90's Cartoons, here are all of them:

"Hands of the Mandarin" - The Iron Man finale. It was more of a season 2 finale, but it did wrap up the story about Iron Man pushing Force Works away during the season, had the classic confrontation with the Mandarin that was built up all season, and lead to the ultimate end of Iron Man's foe.

"Doomsday" - Likewise, Fantastic Four's season arc was about the Inhumans being trapped in a negative barrier. They were freed a couple episodes prior, and Johnny was reunited with Crystal. The finale had the team face Dr. Doom with Silver Surfer's power. Not as definitive an ending, as the only thing really built up over the season was the Inhumans thing.

"Graduation Day" - The X-Men finale, Xavier is near death, and Magneto rallies a bunch of mutants. Xavier says a final goodbye to his students as he's shipped off to be taken care of by the Shi'ar, definitely an emotional ending.

"Mission Incredible" - The Hulk non-finale. Season 2 didn't have much of a story arc. The last episode involved Hulk and She-Hulk stopping some gamma core thing from exploding. Actually, I think the season arc was a green Hulk/gray Hulk thing that was never resolved.

"Farewell Spider-Man" - After stopping an alternate reality Spider-Carnage, Spider-Man meets his creator Stan Lee and has a newfound appreciation for life. The Spider-Carnage battle settles the season arc of Madam Web preparing him for a great battle, and the themes of Spider-Man dealing with a rough life are addressed. Madam Web takes him to find the real Mary Jane, which is sort of a cliff hanger, as Peter never resolved his feelings for the real Mary Jane (and it's also important to note that the next two Spider-Man shows would also end on cliffhangers).

"Destiny Unleashed" part 1 - The beginning of the series finale of Spider-Man Unlimited, but not the end. I have no idea what happened to part 2. Part 1 did seem to set everything up, though. The High Evolutionary was going to take a more active role in crushing the rebels, and while Spider-Man and his team fight him, the symbiote synaptic attacks and then...that's it.

"The End of Eternity" - I want to say this was a part 1 that never got a part 2, but I'm not sure. Silver Surfer's Big Bad was Thanos, who worshiped Death and wanted to bring death to the universe by destroying the cosmic being Eternity. Silver Surfer confronts him in the finale and...I forget.

"Earth and Fire" - The Avengers show ended in 2000, but it began in 1999, so still counts. The Avengers fight the Zodiac. I don't think they were a constant threat in the series, but I could be wrong. The season-long arc about Wonder Man in a coma is wrapped up. Wonder Man is rescued from Ultron an episode or two prior, and in this one, he awakens with new ionic powers (much like his look in the comics). Wonder Man is back, but it's kind of unresolved what the cause of his new powers are, and he doesn't have much of a handle on them.

Honestly, I'd say X-Men is the only one that feels like an end to the actual series, although Iron Man and FF's season finales work well too. Everything else left at least one unanswered question (personally, my favorite is X-Men Evolution because those glimpses to the future looked cool, but it's not 90's, and hence, not listed).

[Jeffrey Logan]

Spider-Man: Unlimited - Destiny Unleashed, Part 1 was left without Part 2, but it has been told, that 2nd season would´ve made Spidey go back to earth (possibly the return would´ve happened in Part 2). It could´ve been the better season (everyone remembers Iron Man and Fantastic 4) Silver Surfer were supposed to get 2nd season. 8 episodes were written, but not filmed. en.wikipedia.org can help anyone to find these 8 scripts, if you type Silver Surfer into search. I am trying to watch all 13 episodes before Fantastic 4: Rise Of Silver Surfer, but I cannot say how.

[stephane dumas]

"Trip to Tomorrow", the final episode of the 1967-70 Spider-man series, Spider-man tried to convince a young runway in a freight train who dream to be a future super-hero, Spider-man convince him with its past experiences then a Super-hero work is dangerous, used sequences of previous episodes since it was a "flashback" episode.

[Caswin]

"Trip to Tomorrow", the final episode of the 1967-70 Spider-man series, Spider-man tried to convince a young runway in a freight train who dream to be a future super-hero, Spider-man convince him with its past experiences then a Super-hero work is dangerous, used sequences of previous episodes since it was a "flashback" episode.Ah, the clip show. Classic. Cheap, but classic. It counts. It's really the older shows I'm looking for here - anything that feels remotely finale-ish.

Since Spider-Man Unlimited keeps getting brought up... Stu, I know you're reading this - can I assume that if there had been no cliffhanger and they'd just beaten up the High Evolutionary and been done with it, your review would've had at least less swearing? :p

[Stu]

Since Spider-Man Unlimited keeps getting brought up... Stu, I know you're reading this - can I assume that if there had been no cliffhanger and they'd just beaten up the High Evolutionary and been done with it, your review would've had at least less swearing? :p

To be honest, I was glad it was gone. Given how just about everything in the show was pretty poor, I'd have hated to see what would've been done with 'normal' Spider-Man.

I don't mind original takes on characters - I thought the Spider-Man: The New Animated Series take on Spidey was interesting enough but this was just drivel designed to sell toys, plain and simple. I imagine if I'd have had to review two seasons of the show for the site, the language would've been beyond appauling! :sweat:

[Caswin]

To be honest, I was glad it was gone. Given how just about everything in the show was pretty poor, I'd have hated to see what would've been done with 'normal' Spider-Man... I imagine if I'd have had to review two seasons of the show for the site, the language would've been beyond appauling! :sweat:Yeah, a new season would have probably been bad - but what I meant was if Destiny Unleashed just hadn't ended on a cliffhanger. Just bam, Mr. Evolutionary is out of the picture, Spidey wins, does a little musing about how he may or may not return home, end series. Bump it up to "lame finale"?

Which reminds me, I was wondering - how exactly was the cliffhanger poorly executed? Was it the type that came out of nowhere just as they seemed to have won and shout "GIVE US MORE SEASON"? Because if so, I'd count that.

[S.C.B]

I read somewhere (I think on this board) that had Spider-Man Unlimited continued, Spidey would have returned to Earth at the beginning of the season. I wonder if SMU would be so derided today if it had simply been a 'sequel' of sorts to Spider-Man: The Animated Series?

[Arsenal]

Few superhero shows are brilliant from their inception. X-Men: Evolution had some growing pains. (Ha, "Growing Pains, I crack me up.) Now, it is well-deservedly praised as one of the best Marvel shows. Had we only had season one, I would guess it would be less fondly remembered.

Iron Man and Fantastic Four (the mid-90s series) had awful first and phenomenal second seasons. Even Justice League's first season was nowhere near as good as the second season. The Batman is another example of a series that needed time to mature. Now, it's regularly kicking out entertaining episodes.

That is why I never try to deride Spider-Man Unlimited, Spider-Man MTV, the Silver Surfer or Avengers too hard. The break between the first and second season allows the creative team to reassess what worked and what did not. In general, there is not a lot of time to assess quality while churning out episodes; and hindsight is in short supply when production is underway.

Knocking the first season of an animated show (where lead times are often limited) is a lot like criticizing the first draft of a script. While the complaints may be valid, the creative team learns a lot from the mistakes made. And I like to think that creators would have corrected glaring flaws if given time.

So, in conclusion, no, I don't think Spider-Man Unlimited or Spider-Man MTV would have been as disliked if they had been given time to grow.

That was a long off-topic rant. Better contribute something before Stu gets mad...

Series Finales may be divided into three groups: cliffhanger (mid-storyline, an inconvenient ending place); partial conclusion (a story that while not intended as an end could function as one); and a total conclusion (there can be no more stories in the iteration they were previously told).

For Marvel cartoons, the cliffhangers are: "Destiny Unleashed," "End of Eternity," "Earth and Fire," and "Mind Games." Depending on how much you wanted Spidey to find Mary Jane, "Farewell, Spiderman" might also qualify. (Huh, Spidey tends to get cut off without much ceremony, doesn't he?) I guess "Mission Incredible" would also qualify, but there was no cliffhanger here--just a lack of resolution.

Partial conclusions: "Hands of the Mandarin" and "Doomsday." Perhaps, "Ascension." There were certainly more stories to tell, but Evo had a strong conclusion.

Total conclusion: "Graduation Day."

Hmmm, that was kinda productive...

[Caswin]

That was a long off-topic rant.Good one, though. :)

For Marvel cartoons, the cliffhangers are:..."Earth and Fire,"And there goes my last shred of respect for the show. Missed free throw, indeed. (Where'd the site go? Out being polished?)

"Mission Incredible" would also qualify, but there was no cliffhanger here--just a lack of resolution.'course, then, is it really even a finale?

Hmmm, that was kinda productive...Aye.

Anything pre-90s?

[Stu]

Anything pre-90s?

Not really. Most of them didn't really have a story arc going on, they were just stand alone episodes. If he pops up here, Jon T might have a cool story about the The Incredible Hulk 1980's cartoon, specifically the last episode they aired in the UK. :)

[Caswin]

Not really. Most of them didn't really have a story arc going on, they were just stand alone episodes.
A show doesn't have to have a story arc to have a finale. I'm counting Laff-a-Lympics' last episode here (as well as Spider-Man's Trip to Tomorrow, which judging by the information over in that other website, does sound like it was made with "ending" in mind).

If he pops up here, Jon T might have a cool story about the The Incredible Hulk 1980's cartoon, specifically the last episode they aired in the UK. :)And wouldn't you know it, I just PMed him about that yesterday... and got a response today. He did indeed put Prisoner of the Monster forward, and I'm starting to believe that it was actually intended to be the end.

Now if only I'd been watching when Toon Disney was airing this stuff. >.o

(Speaking of Hulk, I believe you mentioned in the review of Mission: Incredible that there were some less-than-satisfying plot threads wrapped up. Could you expand on that for a Quixotic archivist who hasn't seen it?)

[Jon T]

Yep, I've told Caswin all about "Prisoner of the Monster", so I'll leave his interpretation of the episode's position and effectiveness as a finale in his ever-capable hands! Needless to say, when originally shown in the UK it was shown last, and worked much, much better that way.

[Spider-Man]

Total conclusion: "Graduation Day." I have to agree. Out of all the series finales, X-Men: The Animated Series simply had the best one. It truly wrapped up the storyline. It prodived the animated series with something the comics never had - closure. Sure the movies did that as well, but this did it on more of a grand scale. There's hope in the air and you feel that no matter what happens next that things will get better. More importantly you don't feel the need to be told more stories. We are left at a great place for the animated series as they look up to the sky and onward. A nearly flawless series finale and better than any of the other Marvel shows (althought Spider-Man: The New Animated Series had a hum-dinger of a finale).

[Caswin]

*Pops back in*

New question. I was looking around at episode guides for The Marvel Superheroes, and at least one episode caught my eye: "The Red Skull Lives / He Who Holds the Cosmic Cube / The Red Skull Supreme". As far as I can tell, it was the last episode, too.

Sounds pretty climactic, but as usual, doubts are holding me back (I still have "Snidley Arrested" from Dudley Do-Right in the "maybe" pile for want of concrete information) - not to mention if, assuming it was a good conclusion, some of the other shows on that thing may have had similar, less-obviously-titled endings. Not having seen them, I wouldn't know. Could any followers of the classics provide any insight?

[Stu]

Mr Talpur, where art thou?! :sweat:

[Jon T]

Right on cue Stu, here's my contribution to this thread! :)

Not sure where you found that Captain America episode guide Caswin, since the last episode produced was actually "The Coming Of...The Swordsman!/Vengeance Is Ours/Emissary Of Destruction". It is however important to note that the order in which The Marvel Super Heroes episodes were produced was usually not reflective of when the stories took place in the original comics.

Even then though, the last chronological episode of Captain America would be "Let The Past Be Gone/The Adaptoid/The Super Adaptoid". The Red Skull story, while certainly a climactic-type episode, was neither the last episode produced, nor the last chronological episode! It would have made for a nice conclusion though!

[Caswin]

Mr Talpur, where art thou?! :sweat:Who's Mr Talpur? And why does Google go bonkers when I Google him?

EDIT: ...oh. Hey there.

Anyway, I got my information from TV.com, which has "Let the Past Be Gone" airing October 13, 1966, and "The Red Skull Lives" on November 28. Not that they're always accurate, but... do they have their information wrong or did this show have a fuzzy grasp on continuity?

How do you find out things like that, anyway?

[Jon T]

Anyway, I got my information from TV.com, which has "Let the Past Be Gone" airing October 13, 1966, and "The Red Skull Lives" on November 28. Not that they're always accurate, but... do they have their information wrong or did this show have a fuzzy grasp on continuity?

How do you find out things like that, anyway?

:)

I have my information from a very informative series of articles in the long-defunct Marvel Age publication (from Marvel themselves, I hasten to add). Specifically the "Reel Marvel" articles from Andy Mangels (who's been doing some great work with the BCI animated box sets), several of which covered The Marvel Super Heroes series, complete with episode listings in production order (along with the episodes' production numbers).

When Grantray-Lawrence made the various Marvel Super Heroes shows, they just took what character's stories they liked and made them into episodes, with little regard to how the stories originally related to each other. That's why the Hulk's origin story for example, was his fifth episode produced. It was the same for all the other heroes. So yes, there was little regard to continuity, at least in terms of the production order of the series. It's hardly surprising given that the episodes would likely be shown in a fairly random order anyway, being a syndicated show.

As for TV.com... I don't particularly trust much information on that site regarding older shows such as this one. Simply put, the way the site is set up (you get points for contributions, increasing your access to the site) has led to many users simply filling up various episode guides with a lot of unsubstantiated information - particularly regarding airdates, just to improve their own standing.

[Caswin]

Curses. Three possibilities. Well, now, I'm confused. :shrug:

Then again - "Let the Past be Gone", huh? Sounds good. Into the list with you.

Here's hoping for a DVD set. Hey, Stu, didn't you say you made a website about this show?