Why have cartoons gotten so mean lately?

[Ahiru-kun]

Family Guy: Nuff said

Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy: Grim is always enduring abuse from Billy and Mandy which I don't get since the deal was that he would be their friend forever not their slave.

Foster's: "Where There's a Wilt There's a Way" Everyone Knows It's Bendy" "Beat with a Schtick" "Imposter's Home for Um, Make 'Em Up Pals"

Ed, Edd n Eddy: I only remember three episodes where the end didn't have the Eds beat up, harassed by the Kankers, or stuck in a cement block or whatnot.

[Kagetsu]

Lately?

I'm going back in the depths of time.

Mighty Mouse, constantly beating up cats
Tom and Jerry, especially when Spike was involved
They even chopped the violence out of Bugs Bunny for a time.

Though I don't like Kevin at all, most tend to reap what they sow.

Family Guy is a whole other level that happened after the Simpsons got ratings. They started pushing the envelope. To be fair, it's on after ten. There has to be some time for shows that aren't aimed at kid level, though I'm pretty much anime after 10 pm.

[AardvarkDog]

Meh, it's a sad fact but Cartoon Producers think nowadays the more pain or himuliation a character has to suffer, the funnier it is. Others try to go for something more original rather than "cliched". In truth, I dunno, but I agree that there are far too many mean-spirited characters and storylines nowadays. They should really take a tip from this classic cartoon* on how to perfectly balance out their "mean scheme" storylines:

http://www.dailymotion.com/thadk/video/x11tky_feline-frameup

And for cartoons that are too mean? Hmm.....PET ALIEN, newer episodes of SPONGEBOB and FAIRLY ODD PARENTS, definately several episodes of ED, EDD n EDDY and FOSTER'S HOME and any episode of CHARLIE BROWN AND SNOOPY featuring Lucy.


* NOTE TO MODS: If this does seem illegal in any way, then I'm sorry. If you'd like me to remove the link, please PM me and I'll do just that.

[aalong64]

I agree completely that alot of cartoons these days are very mean-spirited. I don't find it offensive or anything, just annoying and frustrating that cynicism and bitter sarcasm are relied on as humour these days.

[Golgo13]

The Powerpuff Girls has a ridiculous amount of cynicism. It may be the most cynical cartoon I've ever seen.

[Lonestarr]

I thought I was the only one to notice this. Then again, given how many cartoons are like this nowadays, of course others would notice.

I wrote (http://noteimperfect.blogspot.com/2006/12/so-its-true-some-cartoons-do-encourage.html) about this a short while ago. It was essentially a knee-jerk reaction to the suggestion that cartoon writers are intentionally throwing this nonsense in.

Between this and shipping, it's becoming more and more difficult to watch cartoons without getting ticked off.

[judyindisguise]

Mean-spiritedness is the lousy writer's version of irony. It's used as an attempt to give a cartoon an edge. It often fails. Even more often, it fails to be funny.

[Wussycat]

Foster's: "Where There's a Wilt There's a Way" Everyone Knows It's Bendy" "Beat with a Schtick" "Imposter's Home for Um, Make 'Em Up Pals"
Replace "Beat with a Schtick" with "I Only Have Surprise for You" and I agree.

[Ahiru-kun]

Replace "Beat with a Schtick" with "I Only Have Surprise for You" and I agree.

I know Bloo is a prankster, but everyone but Mac wanting to see him get beat up just didn't seem right.

[Antiyonder]

Or, these writers have had a crappy life, and using these cartoons to reflect on it.

In which case they need to be in therapy, not at work.

[tb4000]

Well, being a cartoonist is usually code for, "I need an outlet to express my bizzare tendencies, and live action just won't cut it." =P

[RonDrakenfan17]

Fairly Odd Parents: Cosmo is pretty mean to Wanda and Timmy is selfish and mean to both of his Fairy God Parents.

The Simpsons: Both Homer and Marge seem to be pretty horrible parents to Bart now. Back in the 90's episodes both Homer and Marge weren't that bad but no they even talk mean about him behind his back.

Avatar: Katars so mean to Sokka :mad:

That's all I got.

[Wussycat]

Here are some rules they should follow:

Innocent characters can suffer, but they need to be recompensed at the end.

If the innocent character is too dumb to know he's being abused (e.g. Stimpy, Meatwad), then they don't need to be recompensed.

Don't have normally nice characters abuse their friend(s), unless they're under mind control or something like that.

If an innocent character turns into a villain by accident and has no control over what he does as a villain, don't have him beaten up or put in jail after he turns back into an innocent character.

The abuser(s) should get a suitable punishment at the end.

Edit: Now that I've thought about it a bit, it seems to be more complicated than I used to think it was. Let's look at Foster's and Clerks: TAS.

Mac and Dante constantly suffer thanks to their so-called "best friend" and occasionally some other people. We get angry about Mac's suffering, but not Dante's. What's the difference?

[FinnMacCool]

Here are some rules they should follow:

Innocent characters can suffer, but they need to be recompensed at the end.

If the innocent character is too dumb to know he's being abused (e.g. Stimpy, Meatwad), then they don't need to be recompensed.

Don't have normally nice characters abuse their friend(s), unless they're under mind control or something like that.

If an innocent character turns into a villain by accident and has no control over what he does as a villain, don't have him beaten up or put in jail after he turns back into an innocent character.

The abuser(s) should get a suitable punishment at the end.

Edit: Now that I've thought about it a bit, it seems to be more complicated than I used to think it was. Let's look at Foster's and Clerks: TAS.

Mac and Dante constantly suffer thanks to their so-called "best friend" and occasionally some other people. We get angry about Mac's suffering, but not Dante's. What's the difference?
Well, Randal often doesn't realize that he's making things worse; he's so stupid and self-involved that he actually thinks he's helping.

And I think the difference is that cynicism itself is on the rise in our culture, not just in the cartoon industry.

[Baltofan]

I agree it's just gone meaner! :evil:

[judyindisguise]

What gets me is that much of the mean-spiritedness is found in cartoons aimed primarily at young children. Nobody can convince me that kids don't pick up on that and act it out at home and in school. :(

[Pomegranate]

It's ridiculous that there is so much more cynicism in cartoons today than there is in the past. For instance, there was this one episode in Winx Club, I think the first episode of season 2, where Bloom wants to catch a sea horse-esque fairy, thinking it could grant wishes, but obviously I don't think that fairy could grant wishes at all and was trying to escape from Bloom because of her attempts to catch it. Why are fairies being viewed as wish granters instead of living beings with a mind of their own, eh? Where's the love for fairies, eh:mad: ?

[moe-ron]

It's ridiculous that there is so much more cynicism in cartoons today than there is in the past. For instance, there was this one episode in Winx Club, I think the first episode of season 2, where Bloom wants to catch a sea horse-esque fairy, thinking it could grant wishes, but obviously I don't think that fairy could grant wishes at all and was trying to escape from Bloom because of her attempts to catch it. Why are fairies being viewed as wish granters instead of living beings with a mind of their own, eh? Where's the love for fairies, eh:mad: ?

fairy tales do that to people's minds, cinderella, pinoccio and the such.
You could say the same about how witches are most of the time portrayed as evil (and ugly).
Thats why i alway write my fairy characters as people eating villians.

back on topic:
i think Foster's episodes are the ultimate offenders on this, really, it doesn't bothers me when other shows do it (except for meg on family guy), but when mac and/or frankie get so much punishment for no reason without any compensation....it just boils my blood, that sort of thing should not happen to such nice characters on a KIDS show.

[PC!]

And of course we can't forget CatDog. I could barely stand to watch that show, all the abuse poor Cat got for no good reason. And then during the rare cases where he DID deserve abuse, he didn't get it.

Feh...

[Douglas E.]

I agree about Ed, Edd, and Eddy. (During episodes where all three Ed's suffer.)I don't mind seeing Eddy get tortured, hell I love seeing it because he's such a jerk. But Ed and Edd rarely do anything selfish or annoying and yet they get the crap beaten out of them anyways. My favorites episodes are ones when Eddy's the only one punished. e.g. Truth or Ed, This Won't hurt a Ed, Will Work for Ed.

-Doug

[RAINMAN]

My guess is the writers think those type of characters make for better story telling or just to have someone stand out from the others in the show. But sometimes the char don`t have a reason why he/she are mean, their just mean for the sake of being mean.

[The Myst]

Mean shows are funnier. Simple answer.

[aalong64]

Why are fairies being viewed as wish granters instead of living beings with a mind of their own, eh? Where's the love for fairies, eh:mad: ?
Was this post tongue in cheek at all?

Mean shows are funnier. Simple answer.
A common myth.

Just to clarify, I'm not against violence, or characters getting their just desserts, or characters being mean or anything, I'm just irritated by modern scripts that overuse cynicism and rely on it as a crutch for comedy.

[AardvarkDog]

I agree about Ed, Edd, and Eddy. (During episodes where all three Ed's suffer.)I don't mind seeing Eddy get tortured, hell I love seeing it because he's such a jerk. But Ed and Edd rarely do anything selfish or annoying and yet they get the crap beaten out of them anyways. My favorites episodes are ones when Eddy's the only one punished. e.g. Truth or Ed, This Won't hurt a Ed, Will Work for Ed.

-Doug

Don't forget "Brother, Can you spare an Ed".

I personally feel sorry for Edd, who often takes the brunt of whatever happens in most of the episodes, which is sadly portrayed in "Cleaniness is next to Edness". I think there are a few rare times he does come off top by simple solutions as demostrated in "Will Work for Ed" and "This Won't hurt an Ed", though Double-D's best Vengeance moment has to be "A Case Of Ed".

[judyindisguise]

Was this post tongue in cheek at all?

A common myth.

Just to clarify, I'm not against violence, or characters getting their just desserts, or characters being mean or anything, I'm just irritated by modern scripts that overuse cynicism and rely on it as a crutch for comedy.

Very well put, IMO. You crystallized the problem perfectly. And if any toon writers out there believe that people don't notice this pseudo-cynicism or don't care, hopefully threads like this will wake them up a bit.

[creativerealms]

I know Bloo is a prankster, but everyone but Mac wanting to see him get beat up just didn't seem right.

Well Harriman and Edwardo have a good reason. Plus Edwardo knew what was really going on so he never wanted Bloo to get beaten up really. Well he did but he knew Bloo would not get beaten up.

[PhantomHag]

If anyone's seen Pig City, I find that to be a very mean-spirited cartoon.

[Anthonynotes]

>>Why are fairies being viewed as wish granters instead of living beings with a mind of their own, eh? Where's the love for fairies, eh ?

Because the concept of a "fairy godmother" goes back a *very* long ways (Cinderella), along with the idea of supernatural spirits/sprites/etc. that grant wishes (see: Aladdin, which dates from centuries ago...).

Thus, Cosmo and Wanda of FOP are just the latest in the long line of wish-granting supernatural beings... ;-)

[Cullen]

One short lived cartoon I remembered was pretty mean and I hated was called, Brothers Flub. About two alien brothers who work at an alien delivery service and are always getting overworked, abused, insulted, by a mean lady boss. And it usually ends with unhappy endings for the poor employees while the boss lady comes out victorious. I'm glad that mean spirited show's now cancelled.

[Blue Priestess]

Nothing - nothing! - was more mean-spirited than the sitcom "Family Dog" that came out to compete with "The Simpsons" back in the 90s. Nasty, selfish, unlikable family neglect & abuse their cowering dog who gets no comeuppance, and it's played for laughs. It was short-lived, but I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't have been made at all.

As for the poster who said that Katara is "mean" to Sokka, I can only assume you're an only child whose friends were also only children. Because there's a big difference between their sibling-dervied "meanness" and actual meanness, once you've seen siblings in action.

[Cobblepot1982]

This is funny & ironic- I find most modern cartoons to be too TAME. Guys, you want mean & cruel for the sake of mean & cruel? Check out almost any Woody Woodpecker cartoon, or almost any Looney Tunes cartoon from the beginning to the '60s.

In fact, there's a reason I love Taz so much- he was the ONLY one who really gave Bugs a "run for his money"...and Bugs sure got very annoying after a while.

No- most modern cartoons are WAAAAAAAAAYYY too PC.

And please- stop claiming all this "just suddenly started now". Nowadays this, nowadays that. As Vigilante from Justice League Unlimited would say "pardon my language, but that's horse hoch".

[aalong64]

Well, first of all, in old Looney Tunes, the characters (Bugs, Daffy, etc) were fighting to save their lives from the hunters or whoever it was in that short. Those shorts also had great direction and storytelling that made us not mind that Elmer Fudd was getting hit in the head, or whatever.
But I don't mind that stuff anyway, I just don't like these new lame, cynical scripts, which actually did start pretty recently, probably because as someone else noted, the world in general is more cynical now.

Actually, I agree those Woody Woodpecker ones. I really didn't like them much. I wanted to, as I liked Woody as a character, but I couldn't watch the shorts. But the worst offender is Screwy Squirrel (not in terms of mean-ness and cynicism, but in terms of relentless bullying and heckling).

[judyindisguise]

In the old Looney Tunes, the bad guy/good guy dynamic was pretty well established, and the violence came about due to a struggle between good and bad. The bad guys asked for what they got, and boy did they get it. :D But there was almost always provocation. In the Looney Tunes short about Bugs vs. the Opera Singer, the Singer bashed Bugs three times before Bugs finally got fed up and retaliated. And that was the usual pattern of all the Tunes: hero gets harassed by idiot/villianous jerk, and the hero gives the IVJ what he deserves. Bugs had a sense of gallantry too; he would often come to the aid of someone in distress. If Bugs were to show up in an FOP cartoon, and he saw Cosmo trash Wanda, I doubt Bugs would join in; more likely he'd make a remark to Cosmo about being a "joik" and if Cosmo snarked back, he'd find an anvil on his head or a bomb in his britches in very short order. :p

That's the difference. In too many toons now you see good guys getting hurt for no reason and they're helpless to retaliate. That's supposed to be funny. (A good example is the endless physical abuse of Adam on My Gym Partner's A Monkey). You see good guys being mean, supposedly for laughs. You see bullies go unpunished. You see people who are supposed to be friends or who love each other victimize each other, also supposedly for laughs. The distinction between good guys and bad guys has become blurred, which is indeed a very cynical notion. And that notion is everywhere in TV animation. And it influences kids' behavior IMO.

And worse of all it's just plain crappy writing by people who have no notion of what irony is and how to write it. They all imitate each other and the shows get worse. And people notice it and that's what inspired this discussion. :D

[Viper]

In too many toons now you see good guys getting hurt for no reason and they're helpless to retaliate. That's supposed to be funny. (A good example is the endless physical abuse of Adam on My Gym Partner's A Monkey). You see good guys being mean, supposedly for laughs. You see bullies go unpunished. You see people who are supposed to be friends or who love each other victimize each other, also supposedly for laughs. The distinction between good guys and bad guys has become blurred, which is indeed a very cynical notion. And that notion is everywhere in TV animation. And it influences kids' behavior IMO.That's how I felt about Martin Mystery in the beginning. Most of the time, he would make horrible remarks and/or play awful pranks on his own stepsister, Diana.:( Then of course, she retaliates by knocking him silly or mainly slapping him.

Regardless, I still feel it's an ok show. It has it's good moments occasionally. My favorite is the ending of when Martin & Diana joined their dad in the woods. I loved the group hug.:D

[Kurokawa41]

I don't understand what's wrong with having violence in cartoons.

[Anthonynotes]

>>If Bugs were to show up in an FOP cartoon, and he saw Cosmo trash Wanda, I doubt Bugs would join in; more likely he'd make a remark to Cosmo about being a "joik" and if Cosmo snarked back, he'd find an anvil on his head or a bomb in his britches in very short order.<<

Actually, both Bugs and FOP came to my mind about how cartoons have changed when thinking of the epsiode where Vicky likes the British kid, and Cosmo keeps telling Wanda/Timmy they needed to "respect Vicky's privacy"... which, while Cosmo was being nice, I don't buy in this case, seeing as A) we're not supposed to have any reason to feel even an iota of empathy for Vicky (given her relentless nastiness/lack of humanity), and B) she already did the (as described above) Chuck Jones "villain/jerk treats the hero badly" bit earlier in the episode----using Timmy as a foot rest against his will, injecting him against his will with truth serum to get his personal secrets out of him, *and* going to the trouble of humiliating him publicly at his school in front of everyone (through use of said secrets). After all that, I think (per cartoon rules) Wanda/Timmy's actions were justified... imagine if it were a similar situation with Bugs/Daffy/etc., it'd be even funnier (with the whole thing ending with Vicky being humiliated/forced to apologize/etc., vs. seeing Timmy beaten up by Vicky...).

Guess the above was a bit off-tangent, but maybe a sign of how things have changed between LT's era and the present (though don't think the above was a sign of "political correctness", to use such a vague/mostly-annoying term)...

-B.

[Wussycat]

I don't understand what's wrong with having violence in cartoons.
This isn't about violence. It's about innocent characters getting undeserved punishment and their punishers going unpunished.

[Sage Shinigami]

This isn't about violence. It's about innocent characters getting undeserved punishment and their punishers going unpunished.

I've had a problem with that for a long time now. I mean, it was in the older cartoons, but nowhere near as prevalent. And lately, there is no one to "root" for. In a more adult cartoon, I can understand this (Family Guy) but in the Cartoon Cartoons....you need a protagonist, and they just aren't there anymore.

[The Myst]

I disagree with everybody. I don't get emotionally attached to the characters so it doesn't bother me if they're unjustly punished. The only thing that would bother me is if the shows weren't funny.

Moral Orel is a good example of this. They often do that whole thing with Orel getting some unfair punishment for no reason. The thing is, I have no objection with Orel being treated unfairly. My objection to the show is that elicits no laughs in doing so.

But by all means, really dig into the characters whether they deserve it or not if it's funny. I don't care about the characters, I'm just there to laugh, so if it's funny, do it.

This is why I don't get the complaints about Fairly Odd Parents. Whether Wanda deserves to be insulted is irrelevant to me because I don't care about her character. The insults are funny so nothing in the show bothers me.

See, and this is what I think the problem you guys have is. You all seem to get emotionally attached to these characters. So it seems to hurt you when the characters you've grown emotionally attached to are insulted. That's what I think it comes down to. I don't think it's that such mean cartoons aren't funny, I think it's not funny to you because you have so much of an investment in the characters.

Of course, I'm not a very empathetic person. The only time I get really upset over anything is over personal failings. But with other people, I have a hard time being overly empathetic or effected by things that happen to other people. I mean, I recognize things that are sad but I don't get sad over them. I try to help and I think of ways that the situations can be dealt with. I'm just not an overly emotional person in that respect. That comes from years of bad relationships with other people that have left me somewhat disillusioned. I don't get shaken by things anymore. So I especially don't get shaken by things that happen to cartoon characters.

Mind you that I don't claim my attitude is healthy. It's really not. I should be effected by things more than I am. But there's nothing I can really do about it. I just don't feel as strongly about things as I used to and as normal people do because I'm very disillusioned with the world. I realize the world is a dark and bitter place and that's made me dark and bitter. So when cartoon characters get unfairly abused, I usually just laugh.

[judyindisguise]

I disagree with everybody. I don't get emotionally attached to the characters so it doesn't bother me if they're unjustly punished. The only thing that would bother me is if the shows weren't funny.

Moral Orel is a good example of this. They often do that whole thing with Orel getting some unfair punishment for no reason. The thing is, I have no objection with Orel being treated unfairly. My objection to the show is that elicits no laughs in doing so.

But by all means, really dig into the characters whether they deserve it or not if it's funny. I don't care about the characters, I'm just there to laugh, so if it's funny, do it.

This is why I don't get the complaints about Fairly Odd Parents. Whether Wanda deserves to be insulted is irrelevant to me because I don't care about her character. The insults are funny so nothing in the show bothers me.

See, and this is what I think the problem you guys have is. You all seem to get emotionally attached to these characters. So it seems to hurt you when the characters you've grown emotionally attached to are insulted. That's what I think it comes down to. I don't think it's that such mean cartoons aren't funny, I think it's not funny to you because you have so much of an investment in the characters.

Of course, I'm not a very empathetic person. The only time I get really upset over anything is over personal failings. But with other people, I have a hard time being overly empathetic or effected by things that happen to other people. I mean, I recognize things that are sad but I don't get sad over them. I try to help and I think of ways that the situations can be dealt with. I'm just not an overly emotional person in that respect. That comes from years of bad relationships with other people that have left me somewhat disillusioned. I don't get shaken by things anymore. So I especially don't get shaken by things that happen to cartoon characters.

Mind you that I don't claim my attitude is healthy. It's really not. I should be effected by things more than I am. But there's nothing I can really do about it. I just don't feel as strongly about things as I used to and as normal people do because I'm very disillusioned with the world. I realize the world is a dark and bitter place and that's made me dark and bitter. So when cartoon characters get unfairly abused, I usually just laugh.

Then it sounds like we're not the ones with a problem. And really, any work of fiction is worthless if it doesn't have characters - or at least one character - a reader or viewer can identify with to some degree. As silly as he is, people do empathize with Spongebob, and that's a big reason as to why he's so popular and the show is so successful. For my part, I can't recall any show, movie, book or play I've ever liked that didn't have a character I cared about in it somewhere. I didn't have to care a whole lot, but I had to care a little. Plus - most people are pretty decent at heart, and therefore derive no enjoyment in seeing someone being treated unfairly. Comedy can be cruel - but good comedy can't be unfair. That's what some of these toon writers don't get. And as a result, they are seldom successful. That's my take anyway.

[Wussycat]

I hate those plots in which a character gets revenge on a bully, but then they learn that that makes them just as bad as the bully. I hate that PC nonsense!

Bullies abuse other kids for their own amusement/profit. Vigilantes abuse bullies to make them stop abusing other kids. How are they the same? Bullies deserve to be abused.

[aalong64]

Then it sounds like we're not the ones with a problem. And really, any work of fiction is worthless if it doesn't have characters - or at least one character - a reader or viewer can't identify with to some degree. As silly as he is, people do empathize with Spongebob, and that's a big reason as to why he's so popular and the show is so successful. For my part, I can't recall any show, movie, book or play I've ever liked that didn't have a character I cared about in it somewhere. I didn't have to care a whole lot, but I had to care a little. Plus - most people are pretty decent at heart, and therefore derive no enjoyment in seeing someone being treated unfairly. Comedy can be cruel - but good comedy can't be unfair. That's what some of these toon writers don't get. And as a result, they are seldom successful. That's my take anyway.(The emphasis is mine)
You really hit the nail on the head there. I agree with pretty much everything you said there. A well-known theory among [good] writers is that if you're not emotionally invested in the characters, then there's nothing to keep you watching this funny show instead of some other equally funny show. The characters are supposed to be part of what keeps you coming back to the show.

[Aldrius]

Bullies abuse other kids for their own amusement/profit. Vigilantes abuse bullies to make them stop abusing other kids. How are they the same? Bullies deserve to be abused.

Er... because the vigilantes are bullies themselves?

[Antiyonder]

Er... because the vigilantes are bullies themselves?

Bullies are thoses who pick on the weaker for no reason, and defending those who can't defend themselves counts as a reason

[Voxxyn]

I'd like to start by saying that I'm not a wussy treehugger and that I like lots of entertainment media that is considered gritty and violent(though I'm also not afraid to love 'kiddy' stuff). I love Mortal Kombat and Half-Life, I love the Die Hard and Terminator films. Please spare me any garbage about how I "want everything to be 100% happy and sunshine".

I think pain and suffering in cartoons is hilarious. But I absolutely HATE it when innocent characters get screwed and mistreated in the worst way possible.

I love Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, I really do. But "Imposter's Home For, Um... Make 'Em Up Pals" is quite possibly the most heartless and vile thing I've ever seen on any cartoon. I never thought that an episode of a children's show could be so upsetting to the point that thinking about it causes full-blown depression--it was about as funny as Schindler's List. Frankie didn't deserve that kind of treatment at all. It was absolutely sick and evil. You have no idea how much I still want to savage that $$@$%%#$ Goofball. And if I ever end up meeting the Foster's crew in person, the very first thing I'm saying is "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WITH IMPOSTER'S?!?"

Lauren's response on this board only made me feel even worse. What a complete disgrace.

[Scirel]

what did lauren say?

Anyway, Camp Lazlo pretty much Is this thread. Especially the newest ep from yesterday. it was LITERALLY abot beating up innocent charachters for no reason. Worse yet, there is no comeuppance.

To Voxxyn, be grateful that you haven`t seen "leave it to bendy" or whatever. It was 1000x worse in what it did.

[judyindisguise]

what did lauren say?

Anyway, Camp Lazlo pretty much Is this thread. Especially the newest ep from yesterday. it was LITERALLY abot beating up innocent charachters for no reason. Worse yet, there is no comeuppance.

To Voxxyn, be grateful that you haven`t seen "leave it to bendy" or whatever. It was 1000x worse in what it did.

Hmmm...now,for me, the Bendy episode worked because Bloo himself is about as bad as Bendy, and so he got a taste of his own medicine. But I can understand if the episode upset people, because Wilt, Coco and Eduardo didn't deserve what they got, and Bendy didn't get his comeuppance. Only the fact that most of Bendy's misdeeds targeted Bloo made me like the episode at all. It's like the FOP episode "Timmy the Barbarian". It's pretty bad, but seeing Cosmo finally get the snottiness beaten out of him did somewhat justify its existence.

[judyindisguise]

I hate those plots in which a character gets revenge on a bully, but then they learn that that makes them just as bad as the bully. I hate that PC nonsense!.

Yeah, I remember seeing a Danny Phantom episode in which Danny started using his powers to fight back against bullies. He just pulled a few pranks on them, harmless stuff, but Sam the gothgirl was all in his face about it. And at the end of the episode - get this - Danny goes up to the bully he got even with and apologized! :confused: And of course the bully hangs Danny up on a flagpole. And I thought, "I was right, Danny is a wimp." It was all so pointless, oh, excuse me, I mean, ironic. Sheesh!

[judyindisguise]

>>If Bugs were to show up in an FOP cartoon, and he saw Cosmo trash Wanda, I doubt Bugs would join in; more likely he'd make a remark to Cosmo about being a "joik" and if Cosmo snarked back, he'd find an anvil on his head or a bomb in his britches in very short order.<<

Actually, both Bugs and FOP came to my mind about how cartoons have changed when thinking of the epsiode where Vicky likes the British kid, and Cosmo keeps telling Wanda/Timmy they needed to "respect Vicky's privacy"... which, while Cosmo was being nice, I don't buy in this case, seeing as A) we're not supposed to have any reason to feel even an iota of empathy for Vicky (given her relentless nastiness/lack of humanity), and B) she already did the (as described above) Chuck Jones "villain/jerk treats the hero badly" bit earlier in the episode----using Timmy as a foot rest against his will, injecting him against his will with truth serum to get his personal secrets out of him, *and* going to the trouble of humiliating him publicly at his school in front of everyone (through use of said secrets). After all that, I think (per cartoon rules) Wanda/Timmy's actions were justified... imagine if it were a similar situation with Bugs/Daffy/etc., it'd be even funnier (with the whole thing ending with Vicky being humiliated/forced to apologize/etc., vs. seeing Timmy beaten up by Vicky...).
-B.

Yeah, that was a pretty moronic episode. The point seemed to be that Timmy was in the wrong, yet Vicky's villiany was entirely overlooked. The kid was just trying to get even and he was totally justified in wanting to. He certainly didn't deserve getting beaten up in the end (or Wanda either). A very mean-spirited episode with an all-too-typical "isn't it ironic?" ending. :shrug:

[judyindisguise]

what did lauren say?.

Yeah...what did she say? :confused:

[DarthGonzo]

Comon Judy, of all people to quadruple post....

:p

[Sailor V]

I think cartoons have gotten so mean lately is because it was suppose to be 'funny' and 'satisfying'. It even happened in live-action shows. The short-lived and short-remembered show called My Brother And Me had a terrible series finale ending where the bully didn't get her just desserts, I hated that and the writer Fred Johnson, I think it's the reason why this show didn't last long.

The Replacements had some nasty episodes too, (Fiddlin' Around and Days Of Blunder) and the mistreatment of Dick Daring to just get a 'laugh' from the audiance is never funny.

[Behonkiss]

I'd like to start by saying that I'm not a wussy treehugger and that I like lots of entertainment media that is considered gritty and violent(though I'm also not afraid to love 'kiddy' stuff). I love Mortal Kombat and Half-Life, I love the Die Hard and Terminator films. Please spare me any garbage about how I "want everything to be 100% happy and sunshine".

I think pain and suffering in cartoons is hilarious. But I absolutely HATE it when innocent characters get screwed and mistreated in the worst way possible.

I love Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, I really do. But "Imposter's Home For, Um... Make 'Em Up Pals" is quite possibly the most heartless and vile thing I've ever seen on any cartoon. I never thought that an episode of a children's show could be so upsetting to the point that thinking about it causes full-blown depression--it was about as funny as Schindler's List. Frankie didn't deserve that kind of treatment at all. It was absolutely sick and evil. You have no idea how much I still want to savage that $$@$%%#$ Goofball. And if I ever end up meeting the Foster's crew in person, the very first thing I'm saying is "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WITH IMPOSTER'S?!?"

Lauren's response on this board only made me feel even worse. What a complete disgrace.

Okay, this is probably going to be the last post I ever make on TZ. It's crap like this that has reduced me to posting about twice per month.

GROW UP. You're so dissatisfied with a half-hour of television that you become depressed? What the hell is wrong with you? I don't care how you feel about the episode; these are FICTIONAL CHARACTERS and people shouldn't be affected like this. This is almost as bad as how judyindisguise absolutely MUST post how 'Big Wanda' and 'Jerkass Cosmo' ruined Fairly Odd Parents so much that he/she must now devote their life to posting nonstop about it for a year.

People like you are the reason guys like Matt Wilson and The Landstander left. I remember when this board used to be fun.

Adios.

[moe-ron]

Okay, this is probably going to be the last post I ever make on TZ. It's crap like this that has reduced me to posting about twice per month.

GROW UP. You're so dissatisfied with a half-hour of television that you become depressed? What the hell is wrong with you? I don't care how you feel about the episode; these are FICTIONAL CHARACTERS and people shouldn't be affected like this. This is almost as bad as how judyindisguise absolutely MUST post how 'Big Wanda' and 'Jerkass Cosmo' ruined Fairly Odd Parents so much that he/she must now devote their life to posting nonstop about it for a year.

People like you are the reason guys like Matt Wilson and The Landstander left. I remember when this board used to be fun.

Adios.

Well that would make 2 forums you post at that became crap now.

anyway, it's true, being depressed because of a cartoon is....well, totally lame, but the point still is that all those thing made the episodes suck.

[judyindisguise]

Okay, this is probably going to be the last post I ever make on TZ. It's crap like this that has reduced me to posting about twice per month.

GROW UP. You're so dissatisfied with a half-hour of television that you become depressed? What the hell is wrong with you? I don't care how you feel about the episode; these are FICTIONAL CHARACTERS and people shouldn't be affected like this. This is almost as bad as how judyindisguise absolutely MUST post how 'Big Wanda' and 'Jerkass Cosmo' ruined Fairly Odd Parents so much that he/she must now devote their life to posting nonstop about it for a year.

People like you are the reason guys like Matt Wilson and The Landstander left. I remember when this board used to be fun.

Adios.

Hasta la vista (I knew my high school Spanish would someday come in handy!)

Seriously, dude, lighten up. You're the one taking this way too seriously if by reading our commentary you feel you simply have no recourse but to take your keyboard and go home. Jeez. :shrug:

[Lonestarr]

I think pain and suffering in cartoons is hilarious.

If done well and to a deserving individual, I do, as well.


I love Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, I really do. But "Imposter's Home For, Um... Make 'Em Up Pals" is quite possibly the most heartless and vile thing I've ever seen on any cartoon. I never thought that an episode of a children's show could be so upsetting to the point that thinking about it causes full-blown depression--it was about as funny as Schindler's List. Frankie didn't deserve that kind of treatment at all. It was absolutely sick and evil. You have no idea how much I still want to savage that $$@$%%#$ Goofball. And if I ever end up meeting the Foster's crew in person, the very first thing I'm saying is "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WITH IMPOSTER'S?!?"

Lauren's response on this board only made me feel even worse. What a complete disgrace.

As I said in my blog, linked in an earlier post, I will never forgive the staff for what was done to Frankie, even if the survival of the species was dependent upon it.

BTW, what was Ms. Faust's...ahem, "response"?

[Mad Mod 49]

Hmmm...now,for me, the Bendy episode worked because Bloo himself is about as bad as Bendy, and so he got a taste of his own medicine. But I can understand if the episode upset people, because Wilt, Coco and Eduardo didn't deserve what they got, and Bendy didn't get his comeuppance. Only the fact that most of Bendy's misdeeds targeted Bloo made me like the episode at all.


THANK YOU! Why don't more people see that Bloo is just as troublemaking and whiny as Bendy (the whiny-ness was emphasized heavily in Coo-coo for Coco Cards.), he deserved what Bendy gave to him. :evil:



BTW, what was Ms. Faust's...ahem, "response"?


I recall that she was answering in place of Craig Lewis (writer of the episode, who ironically never wrote an episode since then) as to why they made Goofball actually be an Imaginary friend instead of a human, but I can't forget exactly what it was she said.

It's kind of troubling to me that several on this board seem to be blaming Lauren Faust for alot of Fosters stuff that wasn't her fault. If anyone actually looks at the writing credits, Lauren has written some of the best episodes in the show (Store Wars, World Wide Wabbit, Mac Daddy, and A Lost Claus) Craig Lewis and Tim McKeon are the ones to blame for most writing mistakes (incidentally, pretty much ALL of Tim McKeon's episodes specialize in tormenting Mac, such as Fosters Goes to Europe and I Only Have a Surprise for You. Weird...:shrug: )



People like you are the reason guys like Matt Wilson and The Landstander left. I remember when this board used to be fun.



*coughcoughcomattwilsonwasanelitistjackassughcough*

[moe-ron]

BTW, what was Ms. Faust's...ahem, "response"?

I wasn't there at the time but her response was something along the lines of "Having Frankie be happy with her crappy job and getting away with everything would not be as fun"

If you really need to know her exact response, use the search function, just like i did.

[Mad Mod 49]

Yeah that was it. I have to disagree here though; Lauren is right that it's best not to do the predictable ending. The problem is that the way Craig Lewis wrote the episode, Goofball actually being an Imaginary Friend WAS the predictable ending, most people (me included) saw it coming a mile away. Having Frankie be right would have bene less predictable IMO.

[Leviathan]

Yeah, cartoons have gotten kind of mean-spirted (for want of a better collective term. Sadistic, maybe?), but I've only found meanness in cartoons unbearable under certain conditions (like some of the Games and APC episodes of Ren and Stimpy, Ren Seeks Help and Stupid Sidekick Union for instance, and a sizable chunk of episodes in Catdog.)

Billy and Mandy and Foster's were brought up. I can tolerate some Billy and Mandy and the first season of Foster's when the meanness is kept in check. Plus with shows like Aqua Teen Hunger Force and Invader ZIM! where meanness and cynicism are absolutely mandatory in order for the show to have any sort of humor, I can stomach that too.

[USSManhattan]

it was about as funny as Schindler's List.

I do believe this is the first time I've seen Godwin's Law broken for a debate about a cartoon aimed for younger audiences...

[Blue Priestess]

*coughcoughcomattwilsonwasanelitistjackassughcough*

Truer words have never been... um... coughed.

Maybe I was just really appalled by it, but nothing will ever top the sheer cruelty of Family Dog for me. EVER.

[tb4000]

Truer words have never been... um... coughed.

Maybe I was just really appalled by it, but nothing will ever top the sheer cruelty of Family Dog for me. EVER.
Family Dog was supposed to be cruel. Tim Burton and Spielberg made it with that in mind. It showed the world through the eyes of the family pet, who is often mistreated in real life and not the happy go lucky life the cartoons always show. Every family has that one brat that basically torments their pet.

[USSManhattan]

"Family Dog?"

I both remember and do not remember that show... only snippets, like that the house burned down and that the wife always had her backend to the camera at the sink... of course I was, like, in single digits at the time.

[Blue Priestess]

Family Dog was supposed to be cruel. Tim Burton and Spielberg made it with that in mind. It showed the world through the eyes of the family pet, who is often mistreated in real life and not the happy go lucky life the cartoons always show. Every family has that one brat that basically torments their pet.

One brat? Yeah, but the whole family? That's more than intentionally cruel - that's just plain sadistic, and no amount of insisting it's supposed to be satirical or dark comedy will ever change the fact that it's only funny to people who can't be bothered with pets. That's the kind of thing dog rescue workers (like my family) hate because it's seen too much in real life, and it's a source of great satisfaction to me that the show died quickly. What's not is that someone thought it was a good idea to okay it in the first place based strictly on the names attached.

[The Myst]

Despite my long diatribe, I'm watching Family Dog and I'm paused at 2:27 to post this. This really is cruel. First the kid chases the dog with a vacuum, then the dad beats the dog with a newspaper because him or his friend farted and he decided to blame the dog. They really went out of their way to animate the dog's face to be totally miserable.

This is a really sadistic cartoon. I'm surprised PETA wasn't all over it.

[aalong64]

Yeah, after watching Family Dog on that well-known site where they have videos, I'm inclined to agree with everything that's been said about it. It's a pretty good example of the problem being discussed. Odd though, that it's 20 years old... A vision of things to come?

[The Myst]

GROW UP. You're so dissatisfied with a half-hour of television that you become depressed? What the hell is wrong with you? I don't care how you feel about the episode; these are FICTIONAL CHARACTERS and people shouldn't be affected like this. This is almost as bad as how judyindisguise absolutely MUST post how 'Big Wanda' and 'Jerkass Cosmo' ruined Fairly Odd Parents so much that he/she must now devote their life to posting nonstop about it for a year.

And not to offend anybody but I just want to say that I do agree with this sentiment to an extent. I'm not hostile to anybody here and I love he board the way it is.

That said, I do think some people do overreact a little bit to the things done in these shows. And it's not even anything in specific in this topic I'm referring to. I've just noticed a lot of people seem to really get heartbroken over the Meg abuse for instance. And I don't really understand why. It's not that big of a deal and if it affects certain people that much, maybe they should just quit watching Family Guy.

Now I'm not naming names like Behonkiss did. I don't even know the usernames of the people I'm referring to. I just know I see a lot of this in Family Guy talkbacks and in other situations as well. It just seems to me you shouldn't get that upset over cartoon characters.

Although I do think the Fairly Odd Parents complaints, and not just from judyindisguise but everybody that's been really angry about that whole debacle, have gotten out of hand like he said. Those complaints and the Meg bashing complaints are the most prominent examples of what I'm talking about. People need to focus on what's important and if they don't like what a show is doing, they should just quit watching it. I really don't think these things should be affecting people as much as they do and I don't think people should let themselves be affected by them as much as they do. To take it personally is really taking it overboard and that's how I see a lot of these complaints lately.

[The Myst]

Oh, and about Foster's, I've never really noticed anything overly cruel about the show personally. It's actually a pretty good show.

[The Myst]

Ok, after watching Family Dog in full, at least the first episode, as mean as it was, the dog did get comeuppance in the end. Everybody loved him after he accidentally helped catch the robbers and he ended up getting to maul the dad, although the dad seemed to be the only one that cared about him just a slight bit in the family. He should've mauled the mom.

[judyindisguise]

And not to offend anybody but I just want to say that I do agree with this sentiment to an extent. I'm not hostile to anybody here and I love he board the way it is.

That said, I do think some people do overreact a little bit to the things done in these shows. And it's not even anything in specific in this topic I'm referring to. I've just noticed a lot of people seem to really get heartbroken over the Meg abuse for instance. And I don't really understand why. It's not that big of a deal and if it affects certain people that much, maybe they should just quit watching Family Guy.

Now I'm not naming names like Behonkiss did. I don't even know the usernames of the people I'm referring to. I just know I see a lot of this in Family Guy talkbacks and in other situations as well. It just seems to me you shouldn't get that upset over cartoon characters.

Although I do think the Fairly Odd Parents complaints, and not just from judyindisguise but everybody that's been really angry about that whole debacle, have gotten out of hand like he said. Those complaints and the Meg bashing complaints are the most prominent examples of what I'm talking about. People need to focus on what's important and if they don't like what a show is doing, they should just quit watching it. I really don't think these things should be affecting people as much as they do and I don't think people should let themselves be affected by them as much as they do. To take it personally is really taking it overboard and that's how I see a lot of these complaints lately.

Then what is a cartoon message board for, exactly? I mean, why even comment on cartoons? They're just silly drawings that move! And yet a lot of people have a passion for them, and a lot of kids watch them, are influenced by them (if only to buy junk food with cartoon characters' faces on them, although I think toons can influence attitudes and behavior also) and it's a fact that toons are a part of just about every nation's entertainment culture (think we Americans are obsessed with them? Take a look at the Japanese!) I don't see how in-depth discussions about the content in some of the cartoons we watch is any more "overboard" than the millions of guys who micro-analyze how hard some doof in a football uniform rammed into another doof in a football uniform. That to me is weird. But then I'm more of a baseball fan. Go Cardinals! :D It just seems to me that if you're in a profession that involves entertaining children, then you should have a realistic understanding of children, or heck, of human beings in general, and try not to write junk that glorifies meanness and denigrates goodness in a pitiful attempt to appear knowing and wise. That doesn't fool anyone, including kids, although a steady stream of such crud does do something to their sensibilities, I believe. Have I gone overboard again? I don't care. I think the topic of this board is a sound one and worthy of discussion.

[Wussycat]

I've never watched it, but from what I've read, Detention seems to be the evil twin of Disney's Recess.

From a IMDb review:
The worst thing about this series however is its primitively stereotypical negative depiction of adults and the 'uncool' kids. Let me tell you what i remember from the episode i just saw... Cool kids are being cool by kicking adults in their butts or spilling ink all over their (adults) heads. Uncool kids are trying hard yet remain uncool no matter what they do (even if they do something much more dramatic like flooding the school gym with a hose). Cool kids pity the uncool ones: "they just ain't got what it takes...", i.e. the cool are also the compassionate ones while the uncool are utterly hopeless and will never be accepted... Adults are all evil and stupid and have nothing better to do but to constantly spy on kids with the sole purpose of entraping them into earning - you guessed it - a DETENTION! This word is shouted at the rate 2-3 per minute and that alone is as annoying as a toothache.

[Anthonynotes]

I've never watched it, but from what I've read, Detention seems to be the evil twin of Disney's Recess.

From a IMDb review:
The worst thing about this series however is its primitively stereotypical negative depiction of adults and the 'uncool' kids. Let me tell you what i remember from the episode i just saw... Cool kids are being cool by kicking adults in their butts or spilling ink all over their (adults) heads. Uncool kids are trying hard yet remain uncool no matter what they do (even if they do something much more dramatic like flooding the school gym with a hose). Cool kids pity the uncool ones: "they just ain't got what it takes...", i.e. the cool are also the compassionate ones while the uncool are utterly hopeless and will never be accepted... Adults are all evil and stupid and have nothing better to do but to constantly spy on kids with the sole purpose of entraping them into earning - you guessed it - a DETENTION! This word is shouted at the rate 2-3 per minute and that alone is as annoying as a toothache.

I've seen "Detention" (a short-lived cartoon on Kids WB from the late 90's/around 2000)... yes, it was meant to be something of a "Recess" knockoff (and I never liked "Recess"). A bunch of goofy kids (two twin Black girls voiced by the "Sister Sister" twins, whose show was also on the WB at the time, a goth-like girl, and an Asian boy who was *really* into and constantly citing DC Comics superheroes like Batman and the Flash, among others) vs. some big-mouthed obnoxiously stern teacher who kept yelling/giving "DETENTION!" to the kids for the slightest offense. Meh...

-B.

[Jpox]

On the topic of "mean" cartoons,
There sure is a lot of whining on this thread.
As it seems to me, the classic comedy of cartoons was simple: character gets harassed, character gets revenge. Most of the time with slapstick, cartoony violence.
The generation that these shows are aimed at are trying to be protected from cartoon characters drinking, smoking, beating each other up, you know, characatured adult-life, what does that leave for the writers?
The generation that shows like Family Guy, ATHF, and other adult-oriented programs are aimed at, are totally different.
Today's audience seems to lean towards more of wit and sarcasm. Lots of talking in shows now.
There's alot that the cartoon makers aren't allowed to do these days to make cartoons fun anymore....
Just a little piece of advice, "if you don't like it, don't watch it".

[Conan-san]

Realy, it's about how much one can take it and sometimes they do push it far too far.

I'll list the Bendy example here, there was something in that just said "Just lay down and accept your fate, witch." to me, that no matter how hard you try, YOU WILL LOSE.

I dunno, I hits me rather hard after watching Gaogaigar realy.

[judyindisguise]

On the topic of "mean" cartoons,
There sure is a lot of whining on this thread.
As it seems to me, the classic comedy of cartoons was simple: character gets harassed, character gets revenge. Most of the time with slapstick, cartoony violence.
The generation that these shows are aimed at are trying to be protected from cartoon characters drinking, smoking, beating each other up, you know, characatured adult-life, what does that leave for the writers?
The generation that shows like Family Guy, ATHF, and other adult-oriented programs are aimed at, are totally different.
Today's audience seems to lean towards more of wit and sarcasm. Lots of talking in shows now.
There's alot that the cartoon makers aren't allowed to do these days to make cartoons fun anymore....
Just a little piece of advice, "if you don't like it, don't watch it".

And definitely don't discuss it, eh? Such an attitude makes one wonder why some people visit message boards at all...

[moe-ron]

"if you don't like it, don't watch it".

it's not as simple, the main problem here is about GOOD cartoons which do this, for example, Family guy has the "Meg Hate", which i find totally annoying and contradictory to what we saw on the older seasons. But the show is still pretty good, im not going to stop watching a mostly great show just because of a small percentage of mean spirited annoying crap. This also applies to most of the Fosters discusion here.

[Wussycat]

it's not as simple, the main problem here is about GOOD cartoons which do this, for example, Family guy has the "Meg Hate", which i find totally annoying and contradictory to what we saw on the older seasons. But the show is still pretty good, im not going to stop watching a mostly great show just because of a small percentage of mean spirited annoying crap. This also applies to most of the Fosters discusion here.
To be fair, Family Guy is intentionally inconsistent. Peter said he used to be a woman, but we've seen him as a little boy lots of times.

[Jpox]

And definitely don't discuss it, eh? Such an attitude makes one wonder why some people visit message boards at all...
I'm discussing it.
At least I had you comment about my opionion didn't I?
Makes one wonder why some people should visit message boards like this...

[Ahiru-kun]

Simply not watching cartoons you don't like isn't the answer. I love Family Guy and Foster's, but most of the mean jokes just don't work for them like they do for shows like Invader Zim. If we don't at least try to get the writers to hear our complaints then the shows' quality will continue to decline.

[The Myst]

To be fair, Family Guy is intentionally inconsistent. Peter said he used to be a woman, but we've seen him as a little boy lots of times.

Not just him saying it, which could be disregarded because Peter says a lot of crazy things, they literally flashed back to him immediately after the operation.

[judyindisguise]

I'm discussing it.
At least I had you comment about my opionion didn't I?
Makes one wonder why some people should visit message boards like this...

Ah, but were you discussing it, or just "whining" like the rest of us? ;)

[tb4000]

A lot of mean spirited cartoons also share the trait of not having continuity. Drawn Together, Billy and Mandy, etc. Even those Scary Movie/Epic Movie flicks are basically live action cartoons, as people get maimed or killed and in the next scene are fine.

[The Avatar]

Speaking of this, when was the first time Family Guy started doing Meg Bashing.

[Wussycat]

Speaking of this, when was the first time Family Guy started doing Meg Bashing.
Since the beginning, but it was funny back then.

[Leviathan]

A lot of mean spirited cartoons also share the trait of not having continuity. Drawn Together, Billy and Mandy, etc. Even those Scary Movie/Epic Movie flicks are basically live action cartoons, as people get maimed or killed and in the next scene are fine.

That's not always the case when it comes to No-continuity shows. For example, Ren and Stimpy met gruesome fates in the "Commander Hoek/Cadet Stimpy" trilogy of that show's first season, but those weren't QUITE as mean spirited as Stupid Sidekick Union, Ren Seeks Help, and some of the Drawn Together/Billy and Mandy/Invader Zim/later Powerpuffs and Dexters