Illumitoon's first DVD is out early and... [Archive]

ChibiGoku

01-14-2007, 03:34 PM

http://animeondvd.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/16369/

Take this as you will. I'd rather see for myself first hand to see how this is, before I make any judgements. Alot of the shots he posted barely have any "problems" so to speak (unless your a huge videophile), except the opening which is something FUNimation had problems with in the past.

I'll hopefully be going up to best-buy this monday or tuesday, and I'll see about picking this up for first hand opinion. Again, take this as you will.

EDIT: Updating the Problems and what not on this dvd.

Ups:
Japanese audio
Subtitles
Japanese Credit Opening
Japanese Credit Ending
Ending sequence left unaltered
No cuts

Problems Associated with the DVD:

- Opening animation is slightly modified from the japanese footage, though most footage is intact.
- Overlays
- Japanese BGM replaced in dub.
- New Songs for the opening and ending dub. Japanese Op/ed songs still intact on japanese audio.
- Possibly dub-titles
- No song translations
- Japanese credit opening has massive compression issues.

Neutral:
- Some minor blocking and noise. (Probably will really only annoy videophiles)
- Subtitle Font

Arxane

01-14-2007, 05:49 PM

My biggest question is why they decided to give a rap opening for the dub track. I know the Japanese song is available on the sub track, but this decision is not only baffling, but it brings back memories of Initial D and One Piece, two examples of localization that didn't exactly go over very well.

Andrew T. Hingson

01-14-2007, 07:21 PM

They gave it a rap opening? Well with a name like Beet I guess I saw that one coming a mile away. "can't to stop the beet, stop stop the beet" - just an example of what I expected had 4kids gotten this show.

Looks like they took some pages from DBZ's not as well handled releases. Which use a dub opening for the dub as well.

That video quality has me concerned most of all though. Bo-Bobo better look better or they're not getting any of my money.

Master Moron

01-14-2007, 10:58 PM

They gave it a rap opening? Well with a name like Beet I guess I saw that one coming a mile away. "can't to stop the beet, stop stop the beet" - just an example of what I expected had 4kids gotten this show.

I was thinking "Beet that ho! Beet that ho!" But, I think even more disconcerting is the fact that they changed all the bgm. You know, a year or so ago, I said that even when 4K!ds goes under there will always be another company out there to take their place. I mean, it's an endless cycle. There's always at least one dubbing company that sucks. Of course, everyone on this board disagreed with me. But, I was right. Illumitoon is the new 4K!ds. And once they're gone there will be another company to take their place...

ChibiGoku

01-14-2007, 11:29 PM

I was thinking "Beet that ho! Beet that ho!" But, I think even more disconcerting is the fact that they changed all the bgm. You know, a year or so ago, I said that even when 4K!ds goes under there will always be another company out there to take their place. I mean, it's an endless cycle. There's always at least one dubbing company that sucks. Of course, everyone on this board disagreed with me. But, I was right. Illumitoon is the new 4K!ds. And once they're gone there will be another company to take their place...

Except in this case, Illumitoons is the lesser of the evils, thanfully.

bigddan11

01-14-2007, 11:32 PM

Why is it already out when the release date was pushed back to January 30 though?

Space Cadet

01-14-2007, 11:33 PM

I was thinking "Beet that ho! Beet that ho!" But, I think even more disconcerting is the fact that they changed all the bgm. You know, a year or so ago, I said that even when 4K!ds goes under there will always be another company out there to take their place. I mean, it's an endless cycle. There's always at least one dubbing company that sucks. Of course, everyone on this board disagreed with me. But, I was right. Illumitoon is the new 4K!ds. And once they're gone there will be another company to take their place...

Wait, where did you read that they replaced ALL the bgm? I know the opening(and probably the ending) have been replaced, but we don't know if the music in the episodes has been replaced.

Beat

01-14-2007, 11:43 PM

When they said alterations, we should have expected this as an end result.

I don't see Beet being a success now.

Andrew T. Hingson

01-14-2007, 11:46 PM

I didn't expect it to be a success either way but manga wise it at least seems to be selling enough to get reprints with the new Viz logo on the spine. Something Eyeshield 21 doesn't seem to be doing :(

Dark Fact

01-15-2007, 12:24 AM

I think we're getting way too ahead of ourselves here. If this is only the first disc of the company's release, there is still groundwork for improvements in the future. I think Illumitoon may had trouble with the compression and artifacting issues but they can still improve. Writing them off as a failure is too premature.

I was thinking "Beet that ho! Beet that ho!" But, I think even more disconcerting is the fact that they changed all the bgm. You know, a year or so ago, I said that even when 4K!ds goes under there will always be another company out there to take their place. I mean, it's an endless cycle. There's always at least one dubbing company that sucks. Of course, everyone on this board disagreed with me. But, I was right. Illumitoon is the new 4K!ds. And once they're gone there will be another company to take their place...
At least Illumitoon is giving their DVD releases the uncut treatment WITH the original japanese track. Something 4Kids has been refusing to do with their properties lately. As for some company planning to replace 4Kids in the future with edited only dub releases? Wake up! This is 2007, NOT 1997! The anime fandom has come a long way this past decade. People aren't as oblivious to anime as they were a decade ago and more anime is being shown then ever before in prime time and late hours than on crack of dawn mornings. Companies are starting to get wind of this and can't ignore the anime fanbase whereas 10 years ago, they could because the fanbase was much smaller and more insignificant.

Arxane

01-15-2007, 01:26 AM

Well, it seems that Illumitoon is doing everything it can to make itself the new Toei/4Kids hybrid. An update from the AoD guy with the DVD says the following:

- The subtitles are actually dubtitles.
- The dubtitles are actually more like closed captions (with "maniac laughter" and that kind of stuff).
- BGM, opening, and ending are replaced with new music.

Um...yeah.

veemonjosh

01-15-2007, 01:39 AM

I fear for how the Bo-bobo release'll turn out now...:sad:

Yash

01-15-2007, 02:01 AM

Well it'd only make sense that when 4Kids craps out, another company would fill their shoes.

Expect Beet to go over the same as Initial D and One Piece.

Beat

01-15-2007, 02:02 AM

Well it'd only make sense that when 4Kids craps out, another company would fill their shoes.

Expect Beet to go over the same as Initial D and One Piece.

Just lovely. Must there always be a "idiotic dubbing company" in the industry?

Saban dies, then 4Kids comes. They're about to exit the anime industry, so Illumitoon picks up the ball of pointless edit and music changes.

RomanMack

01-15-2007, 03:10 AM

Thus, a higher force is trying to tell us that, try as we might, there will always be an incompetant dubbing company.

Guess we just gotta deal with it and accept the truth...

EDIT: You know what'd be freak'n ironic? If THIS company is the one to pick up One Piece (if it's to be picked up by anyone again). Well, at least we'd still get uncuts... Although pourly done.

Demonic Raven

01-15-2007, 03:27 AM

*sigh*

You know, it isn't that hard to make quality anime DVDs. I realize it's Illumitoon's first try, but some of it is simply unforgivable. Bad video and sub quality is one thing, but a rap opening is ...wow. Did they not get the memo? Everybody hates hates hates rap openings!

I thought they'd be smarter than this, considering they have roots in Funimation, but all they seem to be doing is repeating past mistakes.

EDIT: Oh, and heads will roll if Bo-bobo gets this treatment. Trust me on that one...

G1Ravage

01-15-2007, 03:32 AM

Damn you, Barry Watson.

Conan-san

01-15-2007, 03:35 AM

Looks like they were riped stright outa hong kong dvd.

Well, let me know how it works out for ya.

Actualy: hang on, what of Toei's hand in this? Cause they have a history of making things notoriously difficult.

AstroNerdBoy

01-15-2007, 09:43 AM

I was suspicious when Illumitoon first came out. Their early press release (and I think their website, which is down) didn't give me a warm, fuzzy. I wrote them about making sure their subtitles were at least FUNimation's quality if not better. They never responded (not that they had to, mind you).

So this shows that we have another crap company out there. If Toei did have a hand in this (which is possible), that's one thing and it will prove once again that the Japanese don't really have a clue about the American market. There are a lot of things that one can get away with when it comes to the dubs, but the hardcore buying fans won't tolerate a lot of crap (though even many of them tolerate more than I do).

EscaflownePilot

01-15-2007, 10:00 AM

You know what worries me most here? That I've only seen one or two mentions of the subtitle quality and encoding artifacts, while everyone else here and elsewhere is focusing on the "OMG! They changed the OP for the English dub OMG!!!".

Moreover, has anybody heard the BGM or opening yet? Yes, I know that many of you are all "It doesn't matter - it's the principle of it!" like somehow watching something dubbed where all the voices are replaced is okay so long as they don't replace the music, but it is, believe it or not, possible that it could have a legitimate alternate soundtrack. IGPX is a great example of how a changed soundtrack CAN be a good thing.

Ultimately, the only thing that bothers me so far is the dubtitles and the encoding, and those are easily fixable if we start sending some letters. What does bother me more is how so few people are focusing on the dub music and almost ignoring the translation quality and encoding problems. Last I checked, translation of the subtitles and quality of the footage was more important than what BGM was used in the dub (unless said BGM is of 4K!DS quality, which is rare for any company that isn't 4K!DS).

Conan-san

01-15-2007, 12:48 PM

To be fair, I compared the whole deal to a Hong Kong DVD.

BlackJoker JLG

01-15-2007, 03:07 PM

How many shows does Illumitoon have the rights to or is Beet and Bo^7 the only ones so far?

IanC

01-15-2007, 03:24 PM

Beets sequel series (i believe) and AM Driver, iirc.

EscaflownePilot

01-15-2007, 03:56 PM

In total, they've got:
Bt'X
Bt'X Neo
Beet the Vandel Buster
Beet the Vandel Buster Excellion
AM Driver

and distribution rights to Bobobo~bo Bo~bobo, although it's not really their license.

Umino

01-15-2007, 04:15 PM

I pray, pray Bobobo turns out better. I don't really care about the dub, but I do care about picture/audio quality, and subtitles. This big ugly, bootleg looking, DUBtitles are not doing it for me. And it's unexcusable why such a recent series looks so bad.

bigddan11

01-15-2007, 04:16 PM

I fear for how the Bo-bobo release'll turn out now...:sad:

Bobobo's version will be what aired on Toonami, except for the incut part, so I wouldn't fret too much.

Beat

01-15-2007, 04:53 PM

So BT'X is going to get ruined too? Why do all of Masami Kurumada's shows get the hack treatment here?

Conan-san

01-15-2007, 05:02 PM

So BT'X is going to get ruined too? Why do all of Masami Kurumada's shows get the hack treatment here?
Toei

it's always Toei's fault.

ALL ABOARD THE TOEI HATE TRAIN! NEXT STOP, ONE PIECE SHIPWRECK!

Space Cadet

01-15-2007, 06:24 PM

I doubt Illumintoon will do anything with Bobobo. They're just distributing the titles and they mentioned that they are releasing the uncut English dub and the Japanese version.

Well, since the music has been changed, Master Moron will not be happy. I guess RomanMack and Sketch, you don't want Illumintoon to handle One Piece now.:sweat:

Dark Fact

01-15-2007, 07:16 PM

The music is only changed for the dub version while the japanese version still retains the original music so that's not really an issue to complain about as long as you're getting the original version.

However, dubtitles are pretty damn inexcusable and is one of the things that I feared this company might do. Somehow, I don't know if Barry Watson is responsible for this. It could be that he was ordered by Toei to release the DVDs like this. I just can't picture Barry being stupid enough to do something like this when he had experience working for FUNimation in the past.

Space Cadet

01-15-2007, 07:20 PM

The music is only changed for the dub version while the japanese version still retains the original music so that's not really an issue to complain about as long as you're getting the original version.

I realize that, but Master Moron hates when the music is changed for the dub because of the importance the original music has to the story. The dub will suck now, no matter what.

Edit: Looking at the cast list for Beet at Anime News Network, this looks to be a good dub(while not knowing how the English script is). Also, Mark Menza is back.

Umino

01-15-2007, 07:51 PM

Toei

it's always Toei's fault.

ALL ABOARD THE TOEI HATE TRAIN! NEXT STOP, ONE PIECE SHIPWRECK!

Yes. It's all Toei's fault. That makes tons of sense.

I find it funny how you hate Toei so much, yet you seem to love and enjoy most of their animated series.

Arxane

01-15-2007, 08:21 PM

I find it funny how you hate Toei so much, yet you seem to love and enjoy most of their animated series.

Well, I think it's normal to like the shows themselves but despise how the company treats those shows for the American market. I'm not convinced that Toei had a hand in botching Illumitoon's DVD here, but if Toei did have a hand in it, I would not be surprised.

Umino

01-15-2007, 08:27 PM

Well, I think it's normal to like the shows themselves but despise how the company treats those shows for the American market. I'm not convinced that Toei had a hand in botching Illumitoon's DVD here, but if Toei did have a hand in it, I would not be surprised.

Okay, but having total hatred for a company and then turn around and watch their shows is pretty ridiculous wouldn't you say?

Fresh V

01-15-2007, 08:48 PM

Okay, but having total hatred for a company and then turn around and watch their shows is pretty ridiculous wouldn't you say?
No it's not. Just because a company's shows are good, doesn't mean the actual company is good.

KuwabaraTheMan

01-15-2007, 09:30 PM

Okay, but having total hatred for a company and then turn around and watch their shows is pretty ridiculous wouldn't you say?

Not really. I love One Piece, all Digimon series(except Frontier), DBZ, and numerous other Toei shows. But I can't stand their business practices. I like the creative talent, but I hate the company itself.

Umino

01-15-2007, 10:08 PM

EscaflownePilot

01-15-2007, 10:32 PM

Even so, most of you are basing your opinions on their failed marketing attempts here. Yes, they've screwed up here as a DVD company. However, they are a damn good company. If they weren't, I doubt they would be as successful as they are.
The problem here is that you're judging the company as a whole based on only one of its functions.

Toei is a very good animation studio, but as a distributor, they suck. That doesn't necessarily make them good or bad as a whole, it just means that they're great at one thing and need to either improve or quit doing the other.

This isn't just limited to Toei's dealings in America as a distributor, either. Even in Japan, they have a tendency to botch things up when distributing their products.

Master Moron

01-16-2007, 12:38 AM

Moreover, has anybody heard the BGM or opening yet? Yes, I know that many of you are all "It doesn't matter - it's the principle of it!" like somehow watching something dubbed where all the voices are replaced is okay so long as they don't replace the music, but it is, believe it or not, possible that it could have a legitimate alternate soundtrack. IGPX is a great example of how a changed soundtrack CAN be a good thing.

First of all, not everyone thought the IGPX soundtrack was a good thing, and it doesn't count anyway, since it's a co-production.

Second of all, the reason why the bgm is so important is BECAUSE all the voices are replaced. Since the voices are already replaced we're losing about 33% of the audio right there. That's somewhat acceptable since it's necessary. I mean, it's impossible to dub a show without changing the voices. I prefer subtitles, but I recognize that we're not at a point where mass audiences like reading subtitles. So, they need to change the voices. It's a loss, but an acceptable loss. But, if they change the music as well, then 66% of the audio is lost completely. The other 33% of the audio is sound effects, but I don't really know if the sound effects are kept or not.

Obviously, these percentages are made up, as it is quite possible that an episodes audio could consist of 70% bgm or 80% dialogue. But, clearly if they are changing both the voices and the bgm then that's nearly all the audio chucked out the window. You might as well watch the show with the mute button on.

Of course, I guess you're making the point that the release contains a subtitled version, and we should be focusing on the problems that occur when watching the subtitled version, which is a valid point. But due to the more mainstream appeal of dubs its only natural to focus more on the dub. I mean, if Beet achieves mainstream success it will most likely be because of the dub, not the sub.

Conan-san

01-16-2007, 03:54 AM

Yes, the balance between the shows that are released and the absoultely supid distro. company that makes likeing them (the shows) is a delecate battle against the forces of Awesome vs Awesomely Crap.

That said, Toei as a animation studio has been chancing it also, least I mention Air-gear.

Even so, most of you are basing your opinions on their failed marketing attempts here. Yes, they've screwed up here as a DVD company. However, they are a damn good company. If they weren't, I doubt they would be as successful as they are. Yes, they are a good company in Japan...that doesn't meen they succed in America or hell even have a vauge presence over here, if anything they are aiming to ignore the UK and Overfiend the US market.

Umino

01-16-2007, 06:39 AM

Even in Japan, they have a tendency to botch things up when distributing their products.

What? Having own quite alot of their Japanese DVDs, I can safely say they do an excellent job with their products. The only problem I've heard regarding Toei's R2 products is prolly just this recent "One Piece not being released in HD/Widescreen" bull.

AstroNerdBoy

01-16-2007, 09:40 AM

Japanese business practices and American business practices at times are VERY different. I know that from my job. My company has a major presence in Japan, but dealing with the Japanese is very different from dealing with other countries, where our offices have a more U.S. business approach (even if there is a language problem).

Still, whether this played into Illumitoon's release or not, I don't know. As I think I mentioned earlier, when they first hit the scene and I read the stuff they said, I became suspicious that they wouldn't be a company I'd want to do business with. They seemed to be trying to make anime appeal to a mass-market and ignore 4Kids recent failures in this area.

KuwabaraTheMan

01-16-2007, 10:34 AM

What? Having own quite alot of their Japanese DVDs, I can safely say they do an excellent job with their products. The only problem I've heard regarding Toei's R2 products is prolly just this recent "One Piece not being released in HD/Widescreen" bull.

How is that 'bull'? One Piece Episodes 207-228 were animated in widescreen, but released in DVD on fullscreen. That's a major issue, and it took them until Episode 229 to get it right.

Japanese business practices and American business practices at times are VERY different. I know that from my job. My company has a major presence in Japan, but dealing with the Japanese is very different from dealing with other countries, where our offices have a more U.S. business approach (even if there is a language problem).

True, and while Bandai has seemed to hit a hang up on this, mainly with the Japanese execs and US execs not seeing eye to eye on Gundam, Viz and Geneon, which are both US companies with major Japanese connections, seem to be doing just fine.

EscaflownePilot

01-16-2007, 02:29 PM

What? Having own quite alot of their Japanese DVDs, I can safely say they do an excellent job with their products. The only problem I've heard regarding Toei's R2 products is prolly just this recent "One Piece not being released in HD/Widescreen" bull.Like KuwabaraTheMan said, the One Piece issue is certainly not bull.

Aside from that, I hear constant complaints about how dull and barebones Toei's releases in Japan are. I can't claim to know first hand whether this is true or not as I've yet to import any Toei discs, but for what it's worth, you're probably the first person I've heard actually praise their Japanese releases. But, I'm not going to touch this any further, since my argument is entirely based on hearsay.

Umino

01-16-2007, 04:55 PM

About the One Piece thing - sorry, I didn't completely understand the whole issue. My bad.

Aside from that, I hear constant complaints about how dull and barebones Toei's releases in Japan are. I can't claim to know first hand whether this is true or not as I've yet to import any Toei discs, but for what it's worth, you're probably the first person I've heard actually praise their Japanese releases. But, I'm not going to touch this any further, since my argument is entirely based on hearsay.

Who'se ever said that? Owning about 10 of their series released on R2, I can safely say their releases or anything but barebone. Lack of extras? I will admit, two of the series I own are completely extra-less. However, these two series in question are fairly old, and pretty obsure. I don't getting extras would be a very easy.

And having been a member of AOD for some time now, I've always heard good things about Toei's releases (excellent picture, audio, beautiful job at remastering old series). Infact the only complaint I've heard is the unskippable copyright warnings on every disc.

Conan-san

01-16-2007, 04:59 PM

About the One Piece thing - sorry, I didn't completely understand the whole issue. My bad.

Who'se ever said that? Owning about 10 of their series released on R2, I can safely say their releases or anything but barebone. Lack of extras? I will admit, two of the series I own are completely extra-less. However, these two series in question are fairly old, and pretty obsure. I don't getting extras would be a very easy.

And having been a member of AOD for some time now, I've always heard good things about Toei's releases (excellent picture, audio, beautiful job at remastering old series). Infact the only complaint I've heard is the unskippable FBI warnings on every disc.
FBI warnings in japanese disks...

Um...ok.