Star Wars: "There is another..."

[Drachentöter]

A hypothetical.

If you somehow have no idea about the spoilers in the original trilogy, don't read ahead.

My friends and I were watching Episodes 1 through 6 of Star Wars in a row (daunting, I know) and were finally on Empire when Yoda says his famous "No, there is another..." line as Luke flies off to Bespin. We know now that Yoda was referencing Leia (and, according to Wikipedia, an alternate version of Jedi had Luke turning to the dark side and Leia assuming the mantle).

But as I put myself in the shoes of a first-time viewer in a climate that does not know of the famous "I am your father" line and have no clue about Leia and Luke's existence as siblings, I thought of an interesting possibility.

As a first-time viewer, my immediate assumed answer to the "There is another" line would have been...Han Solo. Indeed, the next scene is the room in Bespin with Han, Leia, and Chewie (I think Threepio's in pieces) and of these characters, I would have immediately pegged Han to be an alternate hero.

So what if Luke had turned to the dark side in Episode V? Either by killing Vader or joining him (I think Vader still should have been his father, that concept is essential to Star Wars). Would the movies have been as successful and long-lasting if the epic hero betrayed his friends and fought a reluctant scoundrel protagonist at the end (most likely redeeming himself?)

It's an interesting hypothetical, and altogether moot as anything other than fanfiction, since the movies are so ingrained in film culture. But I never liked Jedi as much as Empire and I'm trying to figure out if I would've preferred a fallen angel storyline such as that one. Han always appealed to me more as a hero. What do you all think about this or any other alternate version of Star Wars?

[Rook]

movies aside, Luke does turn to the dark side in the EU universe, Leia becomes a jedi to save him...

If it were in the movies that Luke turned evil, then Leia would of probably had to save him either way...they are twins.

[Michael24]

From what I remember, at the time ESB was made, Leia was not intended to be the "other" that Yoda mentioned, as she was not originally going to be Luke's sister. Luke's sister was to be another character who had not yet been introduced. But when Lucas decided wrap things up with ROTJ, he had to condense many of his ideas and made Leia turn out to be Luke's sister, thus making her the "other." At least, that's the story I've heard the most.

[langden alger]

i think we all know who yoda was referring to...

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?src=image&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkvandeweek.nl%2Fimages%2Fstarwarskid.jpg&moduleId=stgD_image_details.jsp.M&clickedItemDescription=Image Details

[Michael24]

^LMAO!! :d

[Sharklady]

I actually guessed who "the other" was going to be, well before 'Return' confirmed it. Too bad I wasn't able to post it (the Internet wasn't nearly so accessible in the early 80s.)

A decade later, I also correctly figured out who shot Mr. Burns. :)

[Hordesman]

At the end of ESB, Vader and the twins are able to communicate among themselves and this ability is not shown in other characters.

But I can see it being written vaguely enough through most of the shoot to allow for the possbility of Han or a new character. If it had been Leia from the beginning, I very much doubt we'd have seen the infamous sibling kiss.

[Gpoliceman]

Luke turning to the dark side and Han being the hero (the "other") would of been a horrible plot twist. I always saw Han as a side-kick, not the star.

Also, watching all 6 movies together, it would of been jarring for TWO Skywalkers to turn to the dark side, and Leia having to rescue Luke. Haha. With Amidalia (Natalie Portman's character) being the level-headed female character in the first trilogy, and Leia having to rescue dark-side Luke in the original trilogy, it would of looked like Lucas was writing a space epic about men turning to the dark side and women (seemingly immuned to the dark side) having to rescue them. haha. that would of been funny.

and it makes me wonder...were there any evil females in the Star Wars movies? There sure didn't seem like any.

in star wars, all girls are good! (and cute to boot!)

Greg

[Mynd Hed]

and it makes me wonder...were there any evil females in the Star Wars movies? There sure didn't seem like any.

Darth Maul is really a lady. Those things on his head? Whenever he isn't fighting Jedi, he's got a littler of Maul-lings nursing from them.

...

No, seriously, if you want villainesses in Star Wars, you'll have to turn to the EU. There's a lady Admiral who takes control of the Imperial fleet for a while, a furry broad in Mos Eisley who tries to beat Jabba at the organized crime game, a Jedi adept assassin who tries to kill Luke but later turns good, and probably a bunch of others I'm forgetting. In the movies... not so much.

[The Weed Of Cri]

I'm sure no one here still buys into the myth that Lucas had the whole nine-movie Star Wars saga sketched out 30 years. The truth is, he always made it up as he went along (the only possible explanation for the laundry list of internal inconsistencies within the movies). So "Han is The Other" makes just as much sense as "Leia is The Other", "Chewbacca is The Other", or even "Darth Vader is The Other" (remember, he did switch sides in ROTJ). Luke and Leia weren't originally meant to be sibling, more likely, it was they, and not Han/Leia, who were going to be lovers. And Darth Vader was never meant to be their father. For the purest version of Lucas's vision of the Star Wars universe, listen to the 13-part radio series. It was written before many of the hallmark decisions regarding the movies were made, and its version of several of the characters, particularly Vader and Tarkin, are very different from the way they appear in the movies.

[Chiptooth]

Hey, for all I knew, Artoo was the Other - that lil' blob of grease could do anything, survive anything. :p

[Mog]

and it makes me wonder...were there any evil females in the Star Wars movies? There sure didn't seem like any.

If you play the KOTOR games you'll find that there are actually many female Jedi and Sith. There were a few in the movies 1, 2, and 3 too.

[Zeonic Freak]

Darth Maul is really a lady. Those things on his head? Whenever he isn't fighting Jedi, he's got a littler of Maul-lings nursing from them.

...

No, seriously, if you want villainesses in Star Wars, you'll have to turn to the EU. There's a lady Admiral who takes control of the Imperial fleet for a while, a furry broad in Mos Eisley who tries to beat Jabba at the organized crime game, a Jedi adept assassin who tries to kill Luke but later turns good, and probably a bunch of others I'm forgetting. In the movies... not so much.

The girl who tried to assasinate Luke wound up being married to him in the EU. I know this because i read all these charactors one day at school, instead of working on my final project or whatever (seeing how this was at when Episode III was released)... a joy to waste time than do school work.

I thought this thread was about a somewhat oneday could be Episode 7 then on... my dad has told me he has heard rumors of Episode 7... but everyone i talk to say it will never happen... oh well.

I gotta say my favorite star wars char is, Dash Randar (from the Shadow of the Empire N64 game, and comics as well).

[DarthGonzo]

and it makes me wonder...were there any evil females in the Star Wars movies? There sure didn't seem like any.



Asaaj Ventress anyone...?

[Sharklady]

> ...were there any evil females in the Star Wars movies? <

Wasn't Greedo, the bounty-hunter who attempted to apprehend Han Solo in ep. 4, actually female? I thought George Lucas said this in an interview.

[Zeonic Freak]

> ...were there any evil females in the Star Wars movies? <

Wasn't Greedo, the bounty-hunter who attempted to apprehend Han Solo in ep. 4, actually female? I thought George Lucas said this in an interview.

Then, Greedos kinda... flat?

[Michael24]

I've never heard that before, but it would be interesting, because I once saw a behind-the-scenes picture of Greedo on the set, showing the character from head to toe... and he/she/it was wearing pink heels! :eek:

[The Weed Of Cri]

Greedo's feet were never meant to be seen; but there was a woman in the costume. I think the idea that Greedo was supposed to be a woman came from something in the EU (might have been one of the novels, or one of the comics) that said Greedo's people were sentient insects, and their society was run something like a beehive, so the huge proportion of the population, including all the "worker bees" (the ones who did most of the work including, presuming, the bounty hunting) were biologically female.

If Lucas ever sits down to explain all the mysteries of the Star Wars Universe, I'd like to see him address the big questions:
--Does the Dark Side make you evil, or do you already have to be evil in order to embrace it?
--If the Sith are supposed to have become extinct centuries before Episode One, why does every movie, novel, comic book and video game have Sith crawling out of the woodwork?
--Speaking of the Sith, why do all the Sith have the same first name?
--Why does it seem like half the bounty hunters in the Star Wars Universe are either members of the Fett family, or employees of them?
--and why, with the huge bulk of the evidence pointing to a single suspect as the identity of Anakin Skywalker's biological father, did Lucas not just come out and admit it?

[Michael24]

--If the Sith are supposed to have become extinct centuries before Episode One, why does every movie, novel, comic book and video game have Sith crawling out of the woodwork?


That's a good one.



--Speaking of the Sith, why do all the Sith have the same first name?


I know there was one theory that "Darth" is like a rank, like General or Captain. Don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I remember reading somewhere.

[Noukon]

I know there was one theory that "Darth" is like a rank, like General or Captain. Don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I remember reading somewhere.

It's not so much a rank, but it is an entitlement. It essentially means "dark lord." A Sith lord is given it by their master to indicate what they are.

[Sharklady]

> Then, Greedos kinda... flat? <

Any non-mammalian species would be.

[Russkafin]

--and why, with the huge bulk of the evidence pointing to a single suspect as the identity of Anakin Skywalker's biological father, did Lucas not just come out and admit it?

....so who is it?

And, can you please talk a bit more about the Star Wars radio thing that you mentioned? What were some of the big differences? Where can one hear a copy of it today?

[Michael24]

^ You should be able to find the radio dramas at Amazon.com. I have a Limited Edition box set that contains ANH, ESB, and ROTJ, along with a couple bonus features like cast interviews and promos. Overall, the radio dramas are very entertaining, though the ROTJ adaptation left me a little disappointed. But the first two are great.


It's not so much a rank, but it is an entitlement. It essentially means "dark lord." A Sith lord is given it by their master to indicate what they are.

Yeah, that's basically what I was trying to say. :)

[Hanshotfirst113]

....so who is it?

And, can you please talk a bit more about the Star Wars radio thing that you mentioned? What were some of the big differences? Where can one hear a copy of it today?

Some would say the Emperor, others would say that Palpatine manipulated the midichlorians to create him.

[Zeonic Freak]

Some would say the Emperor, others would say that Palpatine manipulated the midichlorians to create him.

... that is the first time ive ever heard that in my life...

So, is Anakin like Jesus and his mom like Mary, or did Palpatine just went to a whore house one night and pointed to Ani's mom holding some Credits?

So, no one really truly know, unless Lucas just names a name to satisfy the edgar question.



Lucas: "well, i guess we could call him ... ah, Bob, yea... Bob"

[The Weed Of Cri]

I know there was one theory that "Darth" is like a rank, like General or Captain. Don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I remember reading somewhere.

Everybody says that "Darth" is a rank or title, but there isn't a single piece of evidence in any of the movies to support that, and a whole lot of evidence against it. For example:
--the only people who call Vader "Darth" as a direct form of address (as opposed to speaking about him in the third person) are Princess Leia (when she gets captured) and Ben Kenobi (during their final duel). In both cases, "Darth" is used more as familiar name than a title.
--No one else in the entire Star Wars universe addresses him directly as "Darth Vader". His subordinates call him "Lord Vader", and his superiors just address him as "Vader".


Some would say the Emperor, others would say that Palpatine manipulated the midichlorians to create him.


So, is Anakin like Jesus and his mom like Mary, or did Palpatine just went to a whore house one night and pointed to Ani's mom holding some Credits?

No, no, no! Fine bunch of detectives you'd all make. No, the true identity of Anakin Skywalker's father is....
(wait for it)

JABBA THE HUT!

Let's look at the evidence, culled from the only truly canonical sources: the movies.

First, let's get the whole virgin birth thing out of the way. People got that one wrong because they completely missed or misinterpreted Shmi Skywalker's body language. When Qui Gon Jin asked her who the boy's father was, she avoided eye contact with him and looked downward -- by saying he has no father, she was telling Qui Gon that she didn't want to talk about it. Clearly, the circumstances of the boy's birth are so traumatic, she can't discuss it years later.

Then there Anakin himself. When we first meet him, he is, for all intents and purposes, a slave. But he's an incredibly self-indulgent slave who has enough free time to blow off working for his titular owner (Watto) in order to build and race podracers. And why would a cheapskate like Watto let the boy walk out of his shop with racers parts to use on his "hobby"? Clearly Watto's "ownership" of the boy is a smokescreen. Anakin has a benefactor, and it has to be someone who is: a) rich, b) influential, c) powerful enough to intimidate the remarkably fractious Watto, who doesn't even respect Jedi Knights, d) someone who enjoys and/or profits from podracing, and e) someone whose position may preclude admitting to the existance of an illegitimate child. Who on Tatooine do we who fits that description?

Now, let's take a look at Jabba. We know he has an enormous affinity for The Force. In ROTJ, he shrugs off Luke Skywalker's attempt at mind control with a laugh.
We also know that Jabba has some kind of fetish for humanoid women. He keeps Han sealed in carbonite, and tries to feed Luke to his "pet", but Leia? He dresses her in a bikini and chains her to his divan. I should also note that his "house band" features a scantily-clad female singer who is, at least from the neck down, humanoid. It's not too big a stretch to think the female slaves on Tatooine could end up as "party favors" for Jabba.
Is this the Hutt version of bestiality? Maybe not. We've never seen any characters in the films who are positively identified as a female Hutt. We don't know what they look like. They may actually look humanoid, and the Hutt species just have some kind of radical sexual dimorphism.


And, can you please talk a bit more about the Star Wars radio thing that you mentioned? What were some of the big differences? Where can one hear a copy of it today?

Last I heard, the radio dramas were being marketed by a company called Highbridge Audio. The 13-part series delves very deeply into Luke Skywalker's relationship with his friends on Tatooine, including the legendary Biggs Lamplighter, who is kind of a personal hero to Luke. Part of Luke growth as a character involves surpassing Biggs. He no longer needs a hero when he becomes one himself. The romantic element between Luke and Leia is much stronger than in the movies, with Han left as the odd man out. Han also makes some attempts to mentor Luke after Ben's death (with a little prodding from Chewbacca) but finds their respected personalities aren't suited to that kind of relationship and settles for just being Luke's friend. But the biggest difference is in the characterization of Darth Vader. Rather than being an iconic figure of terror, he is a sadistic thug who, quite frankly, isn't too bright. Princess Leia's comment about Tarkin "holding Vader's leash" is much truer in the radio drama than in the movies. Vader spends the better part of one episode torturing Leia to learn the location of the rebel base, and botches it utterly. Then Tarkin dresses him down on the bridge of the Death Star, and has Leia spilling her guts in thirty seconds without touching her or raising his voice. It's totally clear at this point who the brains of the duo is, and which one is the truly dangerous one.

[Zeonic Freak]

No, no, no! Fine bunch of detectives you'd all make. No, the true identity of Anakin Skywalker's father is....
(wait for it)

JABBA THE HUT!

Let's look at the evidence, culled from the only truly canonical sources: the movies.

First, let's get the whole virgin birth thing out of the way. People got that one wrong because they completely missed or misinterpreted Shmi Skywalker's body language. When Qui Gon Jin asked her who the boy's father was, she avoided eye contact with him and looked downward -- by saying he has no father, she was telling Qui Gon that she didn't want to talk about it. Clearly, the circumstances of the boy's birth are so traumatic, she can't discuss it years later.

Then there Anakin himself. When we first meet him, he is, for all intents and purposes, a slave. But he's an incredibly self-indulgent slave who has enough free time to blow off working for his titular owner (Watto) in order to build and race podracers. And why would a cheapskate like Watto let the boy walk out of his shop with racers parts to use on his "hobby"? Clearly Watto's "ownership" of the boy is a smokescreen. Anakin has a benefactor, and it has to be someone who is: a) rich, b) influential, c) powerful enough to intimidate the remarkably fractious Watto, who doesn't even respect Jedi Knights, d) someone who enjoys and/or profits from podracing, and e) someone whose position may preclude admitting to the existance of an illegitimate child. Who on Tatooine do we who fits that description?

Now, let's take a look at Jabba. We know he has an enormous affinity for The Force. In ROTJ, he shrugs off Luke Skywalker's attempt at mind control with a laugh.
We also know that Jabba has some kind of fetish for humanoid women. He keeps Han sealed in carbonite, and tries to feed Luke to his "pet", but Leia? He dresses her in a bikini and chains her to his divan. I should also note that his "house band" features a scantily-clad female singer who is, at least from the neck down, humanoid. It's not too big a stretch to think the female slaves on Tatooine could end up as "party favors" for Jabba.
Is this the Hutt version of bestiality? Maybe not. We've never seen any characters in the films who are positively identified as a female Hutt. We don't know what they look like. They may actually look humanoid, and the Hutt species just have some kind of radical sexual dimorphism.


.

wait... wa, what?

<Zeonic Freaks mind is about to explode how Ani's mom got knocked up by jabba, who weights like 5 tons which is enough to kill whoever is under him, then thinks of his tail as a "reproductive" use prehaps? Then thinks that Aniken would be ugly because how genetics are and why is Ani all human and no Hutt???>

Also, the jedi mind trick only works on weak minded people, Jabba and Watto are strong minded because they are both very intellegent creatures and with Watto owning his own business and Jabba running the Hutt Organization, which to stay on top, you have to have a strong willed mind. The solders are weak minded of course because from day one is "hey, go here, you go here" and there like "Roger that, DEEDEEDEE".

See, im not content from what you said because, its all on assumtion... but might be logical prehaps...

[Noukon]

Everybody says that "Darth" is a rank or title, but there isn't a single piece of evidence in any of the movies to support that, and a whole lot of evidence against it. For example:
--the only people who call Vader "Darth" as a direct form of address (as opposed to speaking about him in the third person) are Princess Leia (when she gets captured) and Ben Kenobi (during their final duel). In both cases, "Darth" is used more as familiar name than a title.
--No one else in the entire Star Wars universe addresses him directly as "Darth Vader". His subordinates call him "Lord Vader", and his superiors just address him as "Vader".

When Episode IV was produced, the mythology wasn't yet fully developed. "Darth Vader" was intended by Lucas to be the character's name. As the franchise developed further, especially with the prequels and the EU, "Darth" became what it is now: a title. Every Sith lord in the films carries it.

Think of it this way -- Luke also refers to R2 and 3PO as "the robots" in one scene of EpIV, when he should be using the word "droids." It's a matter of sloppy writing.

[Mynd Hed]

When Episode IV was produced, the mythology wasn't yet fully developed. "Darth Vader" was intended by Lucas to be the character's name. As the franchise developed further, especially with the prequels and the EU, "Darth" became what it is now: a title. Every Sith lord in the films carries it.

That's the real reason, of course, but even within the logic of the movies it's not too hard to explain. Obi-Wan and Leia use his Sith title because they specifically want to point out that he's aligned himself with a bunch of cosmic jerks. "Only a master of evil, Darth." The Imperials don't because Sith titles don't have a place in their secular worldview, and because for the most part they're uncomfortable around Force users; they'd rather ignore the whole issue if they can and pretend he's simply a high-ranking military figure under the Emperor's personal command instead of dwelling on the fact that they're hanging around with a guy who can (and does!) put the Force choke on anyone who crosses him.