Legion of Super Heroes lineup has zero charisma and needs a retool!

[Tempest]

I'm giving the LoSH a chance and it has some positives and of course negatives. But one of the glaring negatives I'm seeing is that the main lineup they chose has next to no charisma or appeal. Superman aside, I just can't route for these heroes. With all the Legionnaires to choose from why the hell did they choose Brainiac 5 (just plain boring), Bouncing Boy (cornier than mazzola) Timberwolf (another derivative bore), and Lightning Lad or this entire lineup in general? Lightning Lad specifically is one of the biggest vapid ******bags in DCAU history! And we have to watch this vacuous Ahole every week. He has NO qualities, NONE and even less charisma. Most (if not all) of these characters don't deserve to star in their own show (over Green Lantern Corps, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, SHAZAM, JSA etc.) and the way they're currently portrayed isn't swaying me to think otherwise.

The show needs a serious makeover lineup and character design wise (Superman is hideous). I propose a Karate Kid, Chameleon Boy, and Cosmic Boy for one.

No wonder I couldn't ever get into the comic despite all the other titles I've read and enjoyed in the same DCU. What kind of lineup is this and what kind of "super-team" is this or threat to anyone if you take away Superman/Boy?

[Simon Trent]

It doesn't help that the Legion of Superheroes themselves are just really, really boring. I remember picking up one of those comics one day and falling asleep while trying to get through it. They have too many characters with too many similar names and themes and it just gets so hard to get through. If that's the source material that the writers of the show have to work with, then I'm not surprised that you think they're having trouble giving their characters personalities.

I actually think that the character design is fine. It's not perfect, but then again no one on that team except for Superman. My main issue is that the episodes themselves are so formulaic that they don't let the characters shine through. So far, we've had the 'evil guy recruits the good guys to help him do something nasty', 'good guy faces evil relative', 'superhero tournament', 'superhero loses his superpowers but still keeps fighting crime anyway', 'cheap horror movie knock-off'...

Those episode ideas aren't bad, but they have been done so much that any generic characters can play the roles. They make the characters interchangeable, and drain them of their personalities, making the flaw lie not so much in the character designs but in the way they are being used.

Also, they could do more with Superman. In the five episodes that I saw, he was the vector for the evil in about three of them. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was a bad guy.

[Tempest]

It doesn't help that the Legion of Superheroes themselves are just really, really boring. I remember picking up one of those comics one day and falling asleep while trying to get through it. They have too many characters with too many similar names and themes and it just gets so hard to get through. If that's the source material that the writers of the show have to work with, then I'm not surprised that you think they're having trouble giving their characters personalities.

I actually think that the character design is fine. It's not perfect, but then again no one on that team except for Superman. My main issue is that the episodes themselves are so formulaic that they don't let the characters shine through. So far, we've had the 'evil guy recruits the good guys to help him do something nasty', 'good guy faces evil relative', 'superhero tournament', 'superhero loses his superpowers but still keeps fighting crime anyway', 'cheap horror movie knock-off'...

Those episode ideas aren't bad, but they have been done so much that any generic characters can play the roles. They make the characters interchangeable, and drain them of their personalities, making the flaw lie not so much in the character designs but in the way they are being used.

Also, they could do more with Superman. In the five episodes that I saw, he was the vector for the evil in about three of them. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was a bad guy.

I think I'm just burned out on the DCAU/WB Timm/Tucker character designs on all levels (I need a total change in character designs) but that said I agree with most everything you said. It really is like the Legionnaire characters could just say each others lines and it wouldn't matter. The characterization is not it's strongest suit when SUPERMAN has the best personality on the team that about says it all on how insipidly cliche everything is as well as the plots (some lifted from Teen Titans and JLU) which you accurately pointed out.

[trayguy]

I prefer teh LofSH from the 1960s myself.:)

[nick85]

I thought they were actually going to use the show as a continuance off of Far From Home in JLU, but they didn't, and they created these anime, type, characters, so ever since then I haven't been watching. I have never watched an episode.

The ads on the show, and the reviews, were not appealing.

Supergirl was supposed to be apart of the line up, I don't know why they chose superman, in my opinion, for another line up with unheard of superheroes. Personally, I'd have loved to see someone else.

I'm sick of superman, period. I don't like that character for some reason.

(I prefer Chris Reeve's and Dean Cain's version. To me, the cartoon character, that Bruce Timm, or even Paul Dini created, are just, cocky. Lol, to me anyway.)

[Tempest]

I thought they were actually going to use the show as a continuance off of Far From Home in JLU, but they didn't, and they created these anime, type, characters, so ever since then I haven't been watching. I have never watched an episode.

The ads on the show, and the reviews, were not appealing.

Supergirl was supposed to be apart of the line up, I don't know why they chose superman, in my opinion, for another line up with unheard of superheroes. Personally, I'd have loved to see someone else.

I'm sick of superman, period. I don't like that character for some reason.

(I prefer Chris Reeve's and Dean Cain's version. To me, the cartoon character, that Bruce Timm, or even Paul Dini created, are just, cocky. Lol, to me anyway.)

I agree with much of this as well. Although I'm not totally hung up on the DCAU Timmverse continuity (could do without Batman Beyond and Static Shock on JLU) but here it would've worked well and the designs on that "Far From Home" show were much crisper and had more detail as well as a better lineup.

I'm also jaded on Superman, he's too damn overexposed and it's taken it's toll on the appeal of the character. It's kind of why Superman Returns somewhat underachieved at the box office (domestic BO 30 million under budget). There was a "been there done that" (Superman 1&2, Superman TAS, Smallville, JLU, Superfriends etc) feel to it and fans sort of yawned through it. I actually fell asleep 30 minutes in as I have with LoSH and three occasions when watching it late night on disc. So now this faux Superman-child on LoSH we're still nursing the hangover and it's not helping in this continuity.

I'm trying to figure out the appeal to the producers of Lightning Lad, Bouncing Boy, Timberwolf, and Brainiac 5??? It tends to come from Paul Dini ("From From Home") who as good a writer as he can be tends to crowbar very self indulgent corny and schmaltzy characters into shows being responsible for Krypto the Superdog and "This Little Piggy" as well as others. Dini's problem (WB gives him free reign on whatever he wants to write and it can backfire) is he tends to obscure the line of full on serious action show to the comedy animation he writes like Duck Dodgers. For me I like my super hero shows SERIOUS and my comedy shows well......comedy. I don't think the two can go together and when they try it's always my least favorite episodes.

[sdp]

I was actually going to make a thread about how "LoSH" was doing,

I had high hopes as a Teen Titans spiritual sequel not that i wanted TT part 2 but something different/new. I've only watched 3 episodes so i can't judge too much but i definately didn't enjoy them too much. I am definately not one of those "If its not DCAU i'm not watching" since i loved TT and like The Batman (including the first season) a lot.

The show is just boring, counting its new heroes a totally different timeline in the future they have a lot of stuff to work in, and i like some of the cast like Braniac 5 and timberwolf, i'm not familiar with the comics so i don't know if they did make the best choices or not.

oh well.

[GuardianKid13]

I watch this show, it's like Teen Titans Season 1. It's somewhat good IMO.

And dude, did you forget about Saturn Girl, Phantom Girl & Triplicate Girl?:confused: I mean I would understand if you don't like them but they do exist.

[Tempest]

I watch this show, it's like Teen Titans Season 1. It's somewhat good IMO.

And dude, did you forget about Saturn Girl, Phantom Girl & Triplicate Girl?:confused: I mean I would understand if you don't like them but they do exist.

Yeah I didn't bring the girl LoSH members up because they're sort of ehhh. I'm not as annoyed by them for some reason (which the females on super hero shows usually do) and their characterization/charisma seems a tad better (it does the generic job) but no Black Canary, Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Starfire, Huntress, or Raven by any means. Still bland but just not as grating as the males to me.

I was actually going to make a thread about how "LoSH" was doing,

I had high hopes as a Teen Titans spiritual sequel not that i wanted TT part 2 but something different/new. I've only watched 3 episodes so i can't judge too much but i definately didn't enjoy them too much. I am definately not one of those "If its not DCAU i'm not watching" since i loved TT and like The Batman (including the first season) a lot.

The show is just boring, counting its new heroes a totally different timeline in the future they have a lot of stuff to work in, and i like some of the cast like Braniac 5 and timberwolf, i'm not familiar with the comics so i don't know if they did make the best choices or not.

oh well.

Yes, and well WB/CN/CW etc chose the wrong DC property. The LoSH flat out doesn't deserve their own show (even comic geeks like me have a hard time caring). I honestly can't understand the pitch meeting DC/WB had to be convinced on this show or how can they greenlight these insipid no names over properties like Green Lantern Corps, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, JSA, or SHAZAM????

Lightning Lad is basically Flash Thompson with lightning powers. And you know how much we hate him in the Spidey-verse. Now picture giving Flash Thompson a starring role in his own show.:eek:

[Raidon Makoto]

A saw a preview of LOSH at one of the Cons I went to over the summer, and I couldn't just help throwing up a little in my mouth. First off the designs are TERRIBLE. Second, I never really like future superhero shows anyway. And third, well, the preview sucked major ass.

I'm not surprised they can't make LOSH work. What I saw was terrible, and it would be hard to refine something as bad as that. I hope the show just dies of terrible ratings and WB gets the message that we like the Timmiverse and Bruce Timm better than The Batman or LOSH alternate universes and directors.

[BCVM22]

I'm not surprised they can't make LOSH work. What I saw was terrible, and it would be hard to refine something as bad as that. I hope the show just dies of terrible ratings and WB gets the message that we like the Timmiverse and Bruce Timm better than The Batman or LOSH alternate universes and directors.

Which just proves that you're more concerned with bashing what you perceive to be an inferior show than getting the facts straight. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE told Bruce Timm "We're tired of your stuff, you're done." Bruce Timm has said multiple times that he was offered the chance to do more productions in his style and declined them. Declined them. Willingly. He's been doing that style for 14 years. He opted to retire it, and start something new in his work on the upcoming comic-based DTV movies. So there's no "message" for WB or anyone else to get. If Bruce Timm doesn't want to make more productions in his style, he's not going to, no matter how much the elitist fanboys insist that anything otherwise is inferior.

[nick85]

Which just proves that you're more concerned with bashing what you perceive to be an inferior show than getting the facts straight. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE told Bruce Timm "We're tired of your stuff, you're done." Bruce Timm has said multiple times that he was offered the chance to do more productions in his style and declined them. Declined them. Willingly. He's been doing that style for 14 years. He opted to retire it, and start something new in his work on the upcoming comic-based DTV movies. So there's no "message" for WB or anyone else to get. If Bruce Timm doesn't want to make more productions in his style, he's not going to, no matter how much the elitist fanboys insist that anything otherwise is inferior.

Really? That's such a darn pity, because they've made a mockery of his work, and DC Comics, since he left cartoon show business.

I'd like to read the interview/where/when he said that. :raven:

[GuardianKid13]

A saw a preview of LOSH at one of the Cons I went to over the summer, and I couldn't just help throwing up a little in my mouth. First off the designs are TERRIBLE. Second, I never really like future superhero shows anyway. And third, well, the preview sucked major ass.

I'm not surprised they can't make LOSH work. What I saw was terrible, and it would be hard to refine something as bad as that. I hope the show just dies of terrible ratings and WB gets the message that we like the Timmiverse and Bruce Timm better than The Batman or LOSH alternate universes and directors.
Instead of basing your opinion of the show on a short preview & designs ACTUALLY watch an episode and then express it. And heck, even if you still think LoSH sucks give the WB a little credit for trying something new (even if the new is bad).:mad:

[nick85]

I agree with much of this as well. Although I'm not totally hung up on the DCAU Timmverse continuity (could do without Batman Beyond and Static Shock on JLU) but here it would've worked well and the designs on that "Far From Home" show were much crisper and had more detail as well as a better lineup.

I'm also jaded on Superman, he's too damn overexposed and it's taken it's toll on the appeal of the character. It's kind of why Superman Returns somewhat underachieved at the box office (domestic BO 30 million under budget). There was a "been there done that" (Superman 1&2, Superman TAS, Smallville, JLU, Superfriends etc) feel to it and fans sort of yawned through it. I actually fell asleep 30 minutes in as I have with LoSH and three occasions when watching it late night on disc. So now this faux Superman-child on LoSH we're still nursing the hangover and it's not helping in this continuity.

I'm trying to figure out the appeal to the producers of Lightning Lad, Bouncing Boy, Timberwolf, and Brainiac 5??? It tends to come from Paul Dini ("From From Home") who as good a writer as he can be tends to crowbar very self indulgent corny and schmaltzy characters into shows being responsible for Krypto the Superdog and "This Little Piggy" as well as others. Dini's problem (WB gives him free reign on whatever he wants to write and it can backfire) is he tends to obscure the line of full on serious action show to the comedy animation he writes like Duck Dodgers. For me I like my super hero shows SERIOUS and my comedy shows well......comedy. I don't think the two can go together and when they try it's always my least favorite episodes.

Agreed, but I'm seriously thinking that this has something to do with the fact that they created the cartoon, for a younger audience, not for me, or you.

Even the Justice League was sort of a comedy, but comedy in the sense of like "Law & Order" comedy, or "L.A Law" comedy, or an eddie murphy action flick kind of comedy, even though it wouldn't go that far. The genre itself is serious, but the dialogue, and the witty banter between the characters are comedic.

I was really disappointed that they didn't include supergirl though. Some guy above me, wrote that Timm chose not to be affiliated with the cartoons anymore, I'm wondering if that might be true, and why.

[CyberCubed]

I think the problem is the characters don't play off each other very well, which is where Teen Titans shined.

Even though most of TT's plots were generally simple, the episodes rocked anyway because all 5 characters had a great dynamic with each other. It was funny, witty, and it worked.

Legion doesn't have the same appeal Teen Titans did.

[BCVM22]

Really? That's such a darn pity, because they've made a mockery of his work, and DC Comics, since he left cartoon show business.

Made a mockery of his work? That's simply not true. 75% of the Bruce Timm-designed shows are on DVD at this point, with the remaining seasons of JLU and Batman Beyond on their way in the near future. To make a mockery of his work would be to publically decry it and lock it away in the Warner Bros. water tower with Yakko, Wakko and Dot and pretend it never existed, neither of which WB has done. As for making a mockery of DC Comics, that's purely a matter of opinion. LoSH is a different iteration of the Legion, just like Teen Titans was a new and different incarnation of that franchise. He hasn't left the animation business, either - he's on staff for at least one, possibly more, of the upcoming DTV movies, closer looks at which we'll hopefully start seeing as the year goes on.

At some point, I have to wonder when the all-knowing fandom at large is going to step back and take a look at their track record in pre-judging the quality of new productions:

"Batman? In the future? And he's a TEENAGER? Oh god, this is gonna suck!"
"A Justice League with HAWKGIRL? And John instead of Hal or Kyle? Oh god, this is gonna suck!"
"Teen Titans? With a new artistic style and comedic influence? ZOMG THEY LOOK LIKE TEH ANIME this is gonna suck!"
"They're renaming Justice League and adding a whole bunch of heroes that no one's ever heard of? Oh god, this is gonna suck!"

Not a precognitive record I would want picking lottery numbers for me.

As for Bruce Timm's decision to step away from the DCAU and try something new, he hasn't stated it in any interview, but he's alluded to it in a number of posts on this very board. The best singular example I can find is here (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=2078158#post2078158) as he mentions how he was glad he was able to bring JLU to a close and bow out gracefully before the show's quality suffered. I'm sure that a search through the rest of his posts here and the archives of Newsarama and likewise will yield more.

[Silly McGooses]

Which just proves that you're more concerned with bashing what you perceive to be an inferior show than getting the facts straight. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE told Bruce Timm "We're tired of your stuff, you're done."
I seem to recall an interview with somebody at CN a year ot two back who said that the style had its day but that it had gone on long enough. I have to look that up...

[Simon Trent]

"They're renaming Justice League and adding a whole bunch of heroes that no one's ever heard of? Oh god, this is gonna suck!"

Except this time, it's not a prediction. Prediction implies passing judgement without actually seeing the show, which neither I nor the original author of this thread have done. The show is already on the air, and It Is Screwing Up [in my opinion]. Which isn't fair, since the writing in general actually isn't so bad. If only they'd stop mining tired, 60-year old cliches and let the characters and the setting guide the story, then maybe it would work.

[Wonderwall]

I seem to recall an interview with somebody at CN a year ot two back who said that the style had its day but that it had gone on long enough. I have to look that up...

I believe that comment was a hoax.

[nick85]

As for making a mockery of DC Comics, that's purely a matter of opinion.

Everything else you've said there is based off opinion. :)

[Aldrius]

I seem to recall an interview with somebody at CN a year ot two back who said that the style had its day but that it had gone on long enough. I have to look that up...

I believe that was with Sam Register.

He's head of CN or something. He's not bad at it, I disagree with him on a few of his points, though. (He's one of those 'Children come first in the world of animation' folks.)

[The Weed Of Cri]

I'm still watching Legion and have hopes it may get better. For those who have a problem with the choice of Legionaires, it should be obvious the current line-up is meant to represent the Legion in an early form. From what we can see in the opening titles and in the episode "Champions" (besides Lightning Lad, three of the competitors were Legionaires in the comics) the cast is going to expand in the future.

[90'sCartoonMan]

I'm giving the LoSH a chance and it has some positives and of course negatives. But one of the glaring negatives I'm seeing is that the main lineup they chose has next to no charisma or appeal. Superman aside, I just can't route for these heroes. With all the Legionnaires to choose from why the hell did they choose Brainiac 5 (just plain boring), Bouncing Boy (cornier than mazzola) Timberwolf (another derivative bore), and Lightning Lad or this entire lineup in general? Lightning Lad specifically is one of the biggest vapid ******bags in DCAU history! And we have to watch this vacuous Ahole every week. He has NO qualities, NONE and even less charisma. Most of these characters don't deserve their own show (over Green Lantern Corps, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, JSA etc.) and the way they're currently portrayed isn't swaying me to think otherwise.

Give it time. I didn't like Teen Titans until "Masks" and "Mad Mod", and LOSH is still in its infancy. I'd have to argue that these characters do deserve their own show simply because the Legion have been around for over 50 years and weren't given a show until just recently.

Maybe the characters will grow on you, it's all how they're portrayed. Phantom Girl is my favorite, but I see a lot of potential when it comes to Brainiac 5 and Lightning Lad. Brainy idolizes Superman more than the others, but we've seen him be sneaky and manipulative, suggesting he has something to hide. Maybe he doesn't want Superman to find out about his people? As for Lightning Lad, it seems that having a jerk for a brother put him on edge when it comes to relating to males his own age. He has to constantly assert himself to people like Superman and Timber Wolf because he's afraid to be proved inferior in their presence. But he's also a team player, so that's something we see him struggle with.

Like I said, give it time. They're bound to bring in more characters, anyway, which gives the show a lot of potential, I think.

Some guy above me, wrote that Timm chose not to be affiliated with the cartoons anymore, I'm wondering if that might be true, and why.

Well, he is working on other animated DC projects, so even though he's left the DCAU, he's still going to be doing stuff with DC characters.

[Dean Cain]

I have noticed that many of the criticisms in this thread come on the basis that the characters are apparently too bland and overdone, yet you criticize some of those very same characters because of the traits that make them different. Lightening Lad is criticized for being a jerk, which makes him different. Supposedly Brainiac 5 is boring, apparently you missed the part where he transforms into a giant mech and kicks ass. Timberwolf is already a derivative bore, funny since I don't think he's been in more than 2 episodes yet. Bouncing Boy, a character with a very unique powerset, is simply too different from what you want. The rest of the points made aren't really even opinions, just stupid fanboy statements: Superman's design is bad? If his design is flawed, you should really take that up with Siegal/Shuster, as he's pretty uniform with his comic design.

And I don't really see what's so "cliche" about the plots, you can take any single plotline from JL/JLU and say it's cliche because it's been done before since all media is pretty derivative. You people just want another Bruce Timm cartoon, all else be damned no matter if it's been on for awhile or if it's only had 6 episodes hit the air so far. It looks like most of you made up your minds about the show right off the bat and only watched it looking for excuses to hate it.

[Simpler Simon]

I'll agree I've seen like three of the episodes so far and the series hasn't instantly grabbed me like Teen Titans did early on. But this is a show that can't have the uber-adult serious tone of JLU, nor the wacky anime-inspired antics of Teen Titans. It has to play the middle ground like most of the other superhero shows out there, and maybe that's why its struggling to find an identity.

But James Tucker does good work, and even right now they're probably retooling the series and evaluating feedback just like JL season 1 did. I'll probably give the show a rest and come back to it fresh a few episodes down the line.

[the greenman]

I agree, I've seen a few episodes and they are not nearly on JL or TT quality.

[nick85]

Give it time. I didn't like Teen Titans until "Masks" and "Mad Mod", and LOSH is still in its infancy. I'd have to argue that these characters do deserve their own show simply because the Legion have been around for over 50 years and weren't given a show until just recently.

Maybe the characters will grow on you, it's all how they're portrayed. Phantom Girl is my favorite, but I see a lot of potential when it comes to Brainiac 5 and Lightning Lad. Brainy idolizes Superman more than the others, but we've seen him be sneaky and manipulative, suggesting he has something to hide. Maybe he doesn't want Superman to find out about his people? As for Lightning Lad, it seems that having a jerk for a brother put him on edge when it comes to relating to males his own age. He has to constantly assert himself to people like Superman and Timber Wolf because he's afraid to be proved inferior in their presence. But he's also a team player, so that's something we see him struggle with.

Like I said, give it time. They're bound to bring in more characters, anyway, which gives the show a lot of potential, I think.



Well, he is working on other animated DC projects, so even though he's left the DCAU, he's still going to be doing stuff with DC characters.

Thanks man. I think I commented on your livejournal once, if you're the same person.

I was wondering if you had the website posted citing these projects of Timm's, he will be venturing into.

Do you know if he'll still be using the same character designs as in the Batman/Superman/Justice League episodes like before? Tha would be cool.

Someone posted on this board a good while ago that Lucy Lawless was going to voice some kind of Wonderwoman show. I have no idea what it's about, but I was wondering if this had anything to do with Timm's work, as well.

[BCVM22]

Do you know if he'll still be using the same character designs as in the Batman/Superman/Justice League episodes like before? Tha would be cool.

Someone posted on this board a good while ago that Lucy Lawless was going to voice some kind of Wonderwoman show. I have no idea what it's about, but I was wondering if this had anything to do with Timm's work, as well.

I love the search function. Don't you? (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=170913)

Lawless will be voicing Wonder Woman in the Justice League: New Frontier direct-to-video movie, one of the new series of DTV movies that, rather than having someone like Bruce Timm create new character designs for the production, will simply emulate the designs created by the artist responsible for the work the movie is based upon, which is fitting because the new movies aim to be as-straight-as-possible adaptations of the comic source material. In this case, it's Darwyn Cooke's designs for the original comic work of the same name. They will have no link to the DCAU aside from some shared creative staff. Different designs, different voices.

[nick85]

I love the search function. Don't you? (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=170913)

Lawless will be voicing Wonder Woman in the Justice League: New Frontier direct-to-video movie, one of the new series of DTV movies that, rather than having someone like Bruce Timm create new character designs for the production, will simply emulate the designs created by the artist responsible for the work the movie is based upon, which is fitting because the new movies aim to be as-straight-as-possible adaptations of the comic source material. In this case, it's Darwyn Cooke's designs for the original comic work of the same name. They will have no link to the DCAU aside from some shared creative staff. Different designs, different voices.

What search function? That was exactly the thread, I was referring to about the person, you merely just replicated the post/entry.

Thank you, however, for the information.

(But I needed something more, from the website, a website more concise. :))

[Tempest]

I have noticed that many of the criticisms in this thread come on the basis that the characters are apparently too bland and overdone, yet you criticize some of those very same characters because of the traits that make them different. Lightening Lad is criticized for being a jerk, which makes him different. Supposedly Brainiac 5 is boring, apparently you missed the part where he transforms into a giant mech and kicks ass. Timberwolf is already a derivative bore, funny since I don't think he's been in more than 2 episodes yet. Bouncing Boy, a character with a very unique powerset, is simply too different from what you want. The rest of the points made aren't really even opinions, just stupid fanboy statements: Superman's design is bad? If his design is flawed, you should really take that up with Siegal/Shuster, as he's pretty uniform with his comic design.

And I don't really see what's so "cliche" about the plots, you can take any single plotline from JL/JLU and say it's cliche because it's been done before since all media is pretty derivative. You people just want another Bruce Timm cartoon, all else be damned no matter if it's been on for awhile or if it's only had 6 episodes hit the air so far. It looks like most of you made up your minds about the show right off the bat and only watched it looking for excuses to hate it.

I'm not asking for another Bruce Timm cartoon for crissakes. The Batman's current season is kick ass (and it's had other eps that worked) and it has nothing to do with him. I'm asking that they tread on original script (this team is dreadfully icky playing off each other and it can't work and nor do I want them to anymore) ground and choose from dozens and dozens of heroes the ones that we actually care about and can route for. Bouncing Boy in the name alone is pure corn and when you watch him in action you're going "who the hell is threatened by this tub of crap??"

Brainiac 5 has one moment of decent action and you think I'm supposed buy his action figure or something. I repeat this team has NO CHARISMA, ZERO!

[Wonderwall]

Remember when the DCAU creators used to drop into Toonzone and chat with the fans? I wonder why that came to a screeching halt...?

Shame that I wasn't a member during those days.

[Livy1213]

Remember when the DCAU creators used to drop into Toonzone and chat with the fans? I wonder why that came to a screeching halt...?They still do. Boyd Kirkland commented a little while ago and I remember Jeff Matsuda popped up on a few of The Batman's season 4 episode talkback threads.

[Toddman]

NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE told Bruce Timm "We're tired of your stuff, you're done." Bruce Timm has said multiple times that he was offered the chance to do more productions in his style and declined them. Declined them. Willingly. He's been doing that style for 14 years. He opted to retire it, and start something new in his work on the upcoming comic-based DTV movies. So there's no "message" for WB or anyone else to get. If Bruce Timm doesn't want to make more productions in his style, he's not going to, no matter how much the elitist fanboys insist that anything otherwise is inferior.

Just wanted to throw in my two cents regarding Mr. Timm's future endeavors.

DC Comics publisher Paul Levitz commented that discussions took place w/Bruce Timm about the possibility of starting a new project that would have incorporated Timm's traditional style and supposedly taken place within the framework of the established DCAU, but ultimately, he declined. My impression was that any new mainstream project that Timm would have worked on would have been intended for KidsWB. If that was the situation, his new show would've had to comply with the more kid-friendly atmosphere of Saturday morning TV, unlike the freedom that Cartoon Network gave JLU to explore more edgy material.

I don't think CN was offering any new timeslots, so Timm seems to have decided to explore the more mature themes of the upcoming DC DTV movies instead. I don't think he was ever offered a carte blanche opportunity to do whatever he wanted to. He probably had to pick and choose from the available projects (whether it was Kids WB, Dc DTV, or something else) that provided him with the most satisfaction and/or opportunity.

He's overseeing all three new projects, but is most directly involved in the Superman VS. Doomsday project, serving as the director and head character designer.

But to get back on topic...


I'm giving the LoSH a chance and it has some positives and of course negatives. But one of the glaring negatives I'm seeing is that the main lineup they chose has next to no charisma or appeal. Superman aside, I just can't route for these heroes. With all the Legionnaires to choose from why the hell did they choose Brainiac 5 (just plain boring), Bouncing Boy (cornier than mazzola) Timberwolf (another derivative bore), and Lightning Lad or this entire lineup in general? Lightning Lad specifically is one of the biggest vapid ******bags in DCAU history! And we have to watch this vacuous Ahole every week. He has NO qualities, NONE and even less charisma. Most (if not all) of these characters don't deserve to star in their own show (over Green Lantern Corps, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, SHAZAM, JSA etc.) and the way they're currently portrayed isn't swaying me to think otherwise.

I understand your opinion that so far LOSH seems to lack quality character portrayals and natural on-screen chemistry between the main characters, but I don't agree with your ideas of what could improve the show.

In the wrong hands even the characters you mention above could be bland and uninteresting. Don't assume that Aquaman or Wonder Woman would automatically make stronger main characters just because you enjoy their comic books more than the Legion's.

You make it sound like the characters that were chosen to star in the show have some inherent qualities that make them inferior. It should be the jobs of the writers, directors and voice actors to transform whatever group of characters their dealing with into entertaining protagonists.

The show needs a serious makeover lineup and character design wise (Superman is hideous). I propose a Karate Kid, Chameleon Boy, and Cosmic Boy for one.

Again, I fail to see why those three characters would have anymore potential than say, Bouncing Boy, Timber Wolf or Lightning Lad. Other than the pure animation opportunities that Chameleon Boy brings to the table, none of those characters tradiitonally have more design appeal (Karate Kid, I'm looking at you) or personality appeal (Cosmic Boy, I'm looking at you) than the characters that are already on the show.

I thought they were actually going to use the show as a continuance off of Far From Home in JLU, but they didn't, and they created these anime, type, characters, so ever since then I haven't been watching. I have never watched an episode.

Anime:confused:???

How is LOSH at all like anime?


Toddman

[1D_]

Just wanted to throw in my two cents regarding Mr. Timm's future endeavors.

DC Comics publisher Paul Levitz commented that discussions took place w/Bruce Timm about the possibility of starting a new project that would have incorporated Timm's traditional style and supposedly taken place within the framework of the established DCAU, but ultimately, he declined. My impression was that any new mainstream project that Timm would have worked on would have been intended for KidsWB. If that was the situation, his new show would've had to comply with the more kid-friendly atmosphere of Saturday morning TV, unlike the freedom that Cartoon Network gave JLU to explore more edgy material.

I don't think CN was offering any new timeslots, so Timm seems to have decided to explore the more mature themes of the upcoming DC DTV movies instead. I don't think he was ever offered a carte blanche opportunity to do whatever he wanted to. He probably had to pick and choose from the available projects (whether it was Kids WB, Dc DTV, or something else) that provided him with the most satisfaction and/or opportunity.


That's more in line with what I speculate. It's probably like Jordan's second retirement in 98"You can stay but you won't want to." I bet if he was offered a chance to do a DCAU Batman post JLU to bridge the gap between then and Batman Beyond or a Second Batman Beyond DTV cover the gap between S3 and Epilouge all with no bat embargos, DC telling him he can't do certain things for comic book reasons, with double the pay, no one over his shoulder he'd likey take it, but that would just be my guess.JMHO

[CapdCrusader376]

I have to agree with alot of you here this show is not its best, but like some of you said we have to give them some credit here this is Kids Wb on a Saturday morning line up specifically for kids, the shows so far in my opinion have been somewhat entertaining but not the best, LOSH will never be JLU or even TT, but the fact that WB/DC is moving forward and being more comfortable with these projects is what evreyone should appreciate, plus the more supportive us fans are the better, we might get another season and if the producers are listening which they are they will redefine the second season and plus i have read if second season gets greenlit we could expect a season long story arc with darkseid. look at JL fans were upset at the way that the producers were using Superman in JL season 1 and when JL season 2 came around they made him better to better serve the fans, PPl arent giving credit were it is needed. be supportive. first season is always the hardest.

[Ed Liu]

[/URL]Lawless will be voicing Wonder Woman in the Justice League: New Frontier direct-to-video movie...

Just wanted to clarify that this is not officially confirmed anywhere. What we know for certain is that [URL="http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=13709"]Lawless has voiced Wonder Woman for an upcoming Justice League DTV (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=170913), and that the only JL DTV currently in the works is DC: The New Frontier. However, DC declined to comment or confirm this connection when I asked them, so while it's logical, it's also possible that it's for some Super Secret Project in the works that they'd like to keep a surprise.

Sorry. I get a lot more concerned about these sorts of finer points when I gotta pretend to be a journalist :).

I missed LoSH for a good long time until finally catching an episode on Saturdays, and I have to say I like it. It's not as mind-blowingly strange and offbeat as Teen Titans, or as mind-blowingly cool as Justice League (after "Savage Time" and the start of season 2, anyway), but it's a good, solid, enjoyable superhero cartoon that has the seeds of something really cool in there. I like the superheroes, I like the personality differences they have (even if most barely stretch into two dimensions), I like the stories I've seen so far, and I like how a few hints have been dropped and seeds sown for a larger story at work behind the individual episodes. The bit when Timber Wolf takes the oath of the Legion at the end of his episode had more power than I thought it would have. I even like the theme song, though it's not as wildly cool as the assorted BTAS intros or the insanely catchy J-Pop of Teen Titans. I'm finally beginning to understand how the incredible and sometimes scary Legion comics fandom came to be.

I think one of the challenges the producers had to deal with is that Ensemble Casts are Hard, and even though his name is in the title this is not Superman's show. You need some time to establish personalities and inter-team dynamics in ensemble shows, which is why so many of them take so long to take off. IMO, this has happened with Teen Titans, Justice League, and X-Men Evolution, all of which eventually became much stronger shows by the end of their runs.

The one thing I do have a complaint about is that Triplicate Girl made it to the opening credits but hasn't been in any of the episodes I've seen. I think she's one of the most successful character designs of the show, but I have yet to see her show up. I also want new episodes -- I feel like I've seen "Timber Wolf" on the schedule every 2 or 3 weeks.

-- Ed

[Simon Trent]

And I don't really see what's so "cliche" about the plots, you can take any single plotline from JL/JLU and say it's cliche because it's been done before since all media is pretty derivative.[/quote]

Oh, no. No, no, no, no. I don't play that "Well, it's not our fault the stories are repetitive, because 'JL/JLU' did that same thing," or that equally reprehensible cop-out "It's not our fault our stories have been done to death, because, well, it's impossibly to tell imaginative and engaging storylines anymore and everything's derivative anyway so you all should just be happy that there's television to begin with."

For one, apart from coming from the same comics universe, JL/JLU has nothing to do with Legion of Super-Heroes television series. Apart from Superman, they don't even share a character. Even if JL/JLU were the most boring, derivative, and unengaging piece of work ever created, that still does not permit the writing of Legion to slip even one iota as far as quality and entertainment values to go. Not one iota.

And as for the whole, "every form of media is derivative anyway," well, I have news: It doesn't matter. If you were writing an essay for school, and your friend didn't do a good job on his, that doesn't mean that you deserve to be let off the hook for screwing up on yours. If you were working at a bank and you saw a fellow employee wiring money into his own account illegally, that doesn't give you the freedom to do that yourself. The incompetence of any one person doesn't allow the others the right to slack off as well.

Besides, not all media is derivative. There is no law that says every animated series has to have an episode where the heroes are shrunk, or where the heroes get trapped in a bad horror movie, or where the one hero invites a villain over to the hero's base and lets her wreak havoc, or where the hero has to play in an intergalactic hero tournament. Teen Titans did pretty much all of those, but did something else more. The Batman avoids all of those, and manages to wring some plotlines out of the idea of a man in a costume who likes to run around with scantily-clad teenagers and beat up mental patients. Yeah, not all of them were gold, but you could see the effort, which seems to be a taboo word these days, along with creativity.

You people just want another Bruce Timm cartoon, all else be damned no matter if it's been on for awhile or if it's only had 6 episodes hit the air so far. It looks like most of you made up your minds about the show right off the bat and only watched it looking for excuses to hate it.

Yes, of course. It is completely out of the question that some of us have seen this show and watched all six of the currently-aired episodes and have found it lacking. The only way anyone could ever find even a single fault in any DCAU show is if they are a rabid Bruce Timm fanboy.

Seriously though, what really makes me upset with this show is how capable these producers seem to be, and how little they seem to be doing. The dialogue, while sometimes unfortunately generic, is snappy and quick. Some of the episodes -- particularly the second one aired -- are extremely well done and quite powerful, even though they do feature the Legion. The animation is quite excellent and the writers have a grasp of combining these elements into a cohesive whole in order to create a story. If only they could make the stories stop being so boring and unengaging, we'd have a show that's in the caliber of everything else I've seen in the DCAU so far.

[S.C.B]

I'm not asking for another Bruce Timm cartoon for crissakes. The Batman's current season is kick ass (and it's had other eps that worked) and it has nothing to do with him.

It's interesting you should mention The Batman, since it's taken it four seasons to really reach a consistent level of quality. The first season was incredibly rocky and uneven, much like the first season of Justice League and Teen Titans.

As for the charisma of the characters, I suppose that's all down to opinion. I seem to remember the characters of Justice League being quite caricature-ish (John Stewart, Hawkgirl and Flash all had fan complaints of being one note characters at the time) during the early episodes.

[Stu]

I had similar complaints about The Legion Of Super Heroes when I watched it. I thought the characters were bland, one note wonders without the slightest bit of charm to them.

I since stopped watching the show, and don't worry about it anymore. Chances are I'll pick up the inevitable DVD and if I don't like that, I'll simply ignore it again.

If a show irritates you to the point where you are as angry as you seem to be, I'd recommend watching something else. There's plenty of decent superhero cartoons to watch.

[Batlaw]

It needs "Something" IMO. I was actually quite happily surprized by the first two episodes. I wasnt expecting JLU and kept any hopes low. I assumed it was going to be essentially Teen Titans and think it basically is (but w/o the attitude and flair). Unfortunately though Ive found each episode since to be increasingly worse. Ive never cared for the LOSH in any way, but the first 2 eps gave me hope. I would like to see this show regain it's upward momentum. If it's quality continues to degrade, I wont keep watching.