The 1967, 1968, and 1969 WB cartoons

[Pilmedium]

I think these cartoons without classic characters are useless. I say they are cheap excuses for cartoons. They are an insult to the name of "WB cartoons". The producer should have known the characters wouldn't turn into big stars.

How do you feel about these cartoons?

The list of awful cartoons:
Cool Cat (1967)
Merlin the Magic Mouse (1967)
Hocus Pocus Pow Wow (1968)
Norman Normal (1968)
Big Game Haunt (1968)
The Door (1968)
Hippydrome Tiger (1968)
Feud with a Dude (1968)
3 Ring Wing Ding (1968)
Flying Circus (1968)
Chimp and Zee (1968)
Bunny and Claude (We Rob Carrot Patches) (1968)
The Great Carrot-Train Robbery (1969)
Fistic Mystic (1969)
Rabbit Stew and Rabbits Too (1969)
Shamrock and Roll (1969)
Bugged by a Bee (1969)
Injun Trouble (1969)

No, I have not seen all those cartoons, but I know they are useless.

[chuckamuck43]

Pilmedium, I agree with you - that's a mighty big list of trash. Back when I had time to tape and collect cartoons, 1964 was THE cutoff date. Everything after was dreck!

Isn't it ironic (as Alanis would say) that
Warner's thought they needed to emulate everybody ELSE - HB and DePatie/Freleng (another irony)for character design, story formulae and limited animation uber alles - when time has shown, artistically anyway, that they had the right stuff all along.
Of course, by '68 they were STILL behind HB, who had progressed (if you can call it that) to that future CN and media superstar Scooby Doo!


BUUUUUT (as Turtle says), IMHo, when Chuck and Friz left it was OVER and they shoulda shut down right then.

[Thad Komorowski]

"Big Game Haunt" is pretty bad. I'm surprised WB NEEDED to rip of Harvey's Casper in this one. In fact, wasn't that ghost in the cartoon name Spooky? Man, there's another ghost named that in the Harvey comics, who is the opposite of Casper.

BIGGEST RIPOFF EVER!!!!!




-Thad

[Matt Yorston]

I actually like them. I'm certainly not saying they're the greatest cartoons ever made (that would be the 1940-1964 WB cartoons) but I don't feel they are "useless" as Pilmedium said. I guess everyone just has different levels of expectations; mine are lower, I suppose. As mentioned, Cool Cat has moments and Merlin is at least interesting (remember, this is ONLY MY OPINION!!!!). I do agree that some of them look like they leave a lot to be desired specifically the Daffy/Speedy cartoons ("See Ya Later Gladiator" in particular looks like one of the worst cartoons ever made). I will also agree with Thad in saying that "Big Game Haunt" is a rather obvious rip-off of Casper The Friendly Ghost.

That's my $0.02, at least (BTW, please don't anyone be offended by my emphasizing that it's only my opinion. I just want to make clear that I am only expressing how I feel and not wanting to stir up trouble and argue with anyone who disagrees. We are all entitled to our own opinion; I don't want to cause trouble for anyone else).

[Gossamer]

Ah, me-where do I start? I guess that first I should say that I have seen most (although not all) of the shorts you list and like some and don't like others. I happen to think Cool Cat was good and Bunny and Claude a waste of celluloid. But there's at least one Cool Cat that is lousy and a B & C that is very good. To say that something is useless without ever seeing it makes your opinion on that particular point meaningless because it has no basis. I'm not going to buy the latest Britney Spears album because I know I don't much like her and it would be a waste of my money for me. But if I cll it garbage without hearing it, that's worthless.

There is not a dime's worth of difference between you saying they're useless without seeing them and someone saying the same thing about cartoons in general without seeing very many of them.

As for the latter-day WB shorts, I've seen better, but I've also seen worse. But some are reasonably good and, considering the circumstances surrounding their production (money, for one thing), they're probably better than they should be. Further Deponent Saith Not.

[PorkyandDaffy]

I can't stand any of the WB cartoons afater 1964.

[Sogturtle]

Alex poor Lovy we knew him well...;o)

In this instance Gossamer and I are in total agreement!!! :cool: :eek: ... And truth be told, I actually like some of them a fair amount!!

I do have all of said critters (excepting "Injun Trouble" and "The Door") in one form or another... To say one can't stand ANY of the Warner cartoons of a particular period is a radical and unyielding point. We still have a number of the same people working on the 1969 WB toons as were on the 1936 toons (McKimson, Cal Howard, Norm McCabe, Jim Davis...). Had they lost all their formidable talents in some sort of cataclysmic cartoon accident after 1964??? Or had they mysteriously gained those same talents in 1936?? Could it be that a "grace period" was called for while a unit got up to speed (in whatever decade)?? And truth be told the later Sixties WB toons are definitely better with the loss of one (early '60's) David Detiege (ex-D*sn*y writer) who never ever had any understanding of the Warner's characters or their motiviations...

Annnnnd the problem for the '67-'69 WB toons wasn't just the faulty judgement to cease use of the classic characters. It had more than anything to do with the notion of WHO to hire as DIRECTOR and as storyman. Alex Lovy was a man of some talent who appears to have been overwhelmed by the whole situation or just plain homesick for Hanna-Barbera. While Bob McKimson was a man of great talent, but who desperately needed either strong competitors (Jones and Freleng), or strong storyman (Sid Marcus or Warren Foster). The McKimson cartoons are generally much better than the Lovy films (though "Rodent To Stardom" appeals to me). Ifffff Bill Hendricks had opted to hire Art Davis from Hanna-Barbera rather than Alex Lovy, AND THEN brought in Bob McKimson also, both men could have used the same unit alternately and theoretically created a happy creative competition. The new characters had potential especially "Cool Cat" and "Merlin The Magic Mouse", and with this sort of setup just might have prospered... If you will imagine if a competing Davis and McKimson had been allowed the use of storyman Sid Marcus and of the great classic characters...!!! Then we might well have had some tremendously funny cartoons. [B]

[J Lee]

I was just musing over this topic today while waiting to get my toe X-rayed (but that's another story entirely)....

1.) I actually dislike the one-shots far less than the D-FE/Format Films/Bill Hendricks Daffy-Speedy and Road Runner cartoons. The one shots at least start from ground zero, even if the designs are Hanna-Barbera ripoffs, while almost all of the others only serve to remined you how great those same characters were in the 1940s and 1950s (I mean, nobody's watching Merlin the Magic Mouse and thinking how much better Freleng did him back in 1948...)

2.) Warner's really should have done what Shamus Culhane did when he revamped Paramount Studios in 1966 and dropped the Noveltoon and Modern Madcap titles from that studio's cartoons. "Flying Circus" or "A Feud With a Dude" are only Merrie Melodies and Looney Tunes because WB owned the rights to the names, but that didn't mean they had to use them (except for fool unwitting theater exhibitors, I guess).

3.) Give Warner Bros. some credit -- With the lower budgets they could have done what MGM did with the Deitch Tom and Jerrys and tried to make a quick buck by putting Bugs, Porky, Tweety, Silvester and the rest into those W/7 cartoons. As it was, only Daffy and Speedy were subjected to the abuse (and given Daffy's personality by 1967, you could even come up with a story line where all the other characters refuse to be degraded in those cheap cartoons, except for Daffy, who does it for the money and figures he'll be the big star now, only to be upstaged by Speedy).

4.)Three gags I actually do like from the W/7 cartoons:

-- Mel Blanc's "peanut?" line before getting pummled by the elephant in "Chimp and Zee" (Lovy's last cartoon with the studio)

-- Claude's response to Bunny "Is that all you ever think about - carrots?" from "Bunny and Claude." Not a great line, but it was nice to see a return to the topical refrences from the old days and have a character in a 1968 Warner Bros. cartoon refer to dialogue (and sexual dialogue at that) from a 1967 Warner Bros. feature film.

-- The glass-pane/radiator gag with Quick Brown Fox from "Rabbit Stew and Rabbits Too." Having the gas station attendant unscrew the fox's nose like a radiator cap and fill him up with water was a nice touch, and worked even through the 1969-style animation.

That's about it. Time to go and stick my toe back in the ice...

[BugsandTweety]

I actually very much like "Rabbit Stew And Rabbits Too". When I first saw it on Nickelodeon, I found my foot doing some distinct tapping to the rhythm of the music, and the rapid black-out gags are surprisingly sufficient to rival those of a certain Chuck Jones series.

And there's something about "3 Ring Wing-Ding" that just gets me laughing every time. Must be the
circus gags and Colonel Rimfire's reactions. The Cool Cat cartoons are rather hit-and-miss, but don't diss "Norman Normal". The satire in that is first-rate.

The D-F Road Runners are probably the best of the lot IMHO since they've retained much of the spirit, though of course not the animation standard, of their predecessors. And here again is music that the foot loves to tap to.

But I've always disliked Daffy-and-Speedy. Unlike the D-F Road Runners, they stuck out like a sore thumb on Saturday morning and one learned to use the time that they were on to do chores, homework, etc.

[Pilmedium]

Gossamer, please don't flame me. The only ones I haven't seen are cartoons not available to many people. (Hocus Pocus Pow Wow, Norman Normal, The Door, and Injun Trouble). I don't even know where to find them. I think I have seen enough to make a general opinion.

:mad: ... I had better log off before I get too mad...

[Gossamer]

Originally posted by Pilmedium
Gossamer, please don't flame me. The only ones I haven't seen are cartoons not available to many people. (Hocus Pocus Pow Wow, Norman Normal, The Door, and Injun Trouble). I don't even know where to find them. I think I have seen enough to make a general opinion.

:mad: ... I had better log off before I get too mad...

My previous post was not intended as a "flame". I thought I stated my points politely and without discourtesy. If you got the impression otherwise, my apologies. If one of the moderators considers my previous post a "flame", then either remove it or request I delete.

[Matthew Hunter]

I think they are a mixed bag, but I happen to like the 1960's cartoons, whether that's bad or good. I like the DePatie/Freleng and Format Daffy/Speedy films, but the post-67 ones, done by Alex Lovy, mostly, are abysmal ("Sky Scraper Caper" sucks). In fact, the only one from that very later period that appeals to me in that series is "Fiesta Fiasco". I like Merlin better than Cool Cat. "Shamrock and Roll" and "Feud With a Dude" are my favorite of those. I think MCKimson's entries in both of those series are the best, but Lovy did the original "Merlin" cartoon, I believe, and that one is very good for its time. "Big Game Haunt" is entertaining and funny, but yes, it loses a lot of points for the Casper ripoff, and how it avoided a lawsuit by Harvey or Paramount is beyond me. "Bugged By a Bee" is a great cartoon, and "Injun Trouble" sounds funny...too bad nobody's ever seen it. I see the W.C. Fields resemblance in Merlin, but somehow I fail to see much connection with the Pink Panther in Cool Cat...his head's similarly shaped, but that's about it. The Pink Panther is, well, pink, he's taller,lankier, has a long tail, silent, and probably a lot funner than Cool Cat. Cool Cat is short, stubby, chubby, and striped, plus he wears a tie and hat. I think he resembles a Hanna-Barbera character more than anything else. I think "Bunny and Claude" are certainly highlights, and the catchy folk-music title song certainly helps. The one-shot "Flying Circus" is a bit monotonous, but the concept is entertaining and the characters are funny. "Rapid Rabbit" has its moments, but for the most part it is a terrible ripoff of the Road Runner, whom McKimson proved earlier that he could draw and direct very well. Then again, doing a Road Runner on this budget, presumably lower than anything DePatie/Freleng offered, would have probably been a disaster. Maybe the worst part of these films is the titles...I really don't like the 'new' music and the WB/7A logo. I don't really like it on the DePatie/Freleng films either, and both versions leave off the slogan "That's All Folks", a loss for the worse in my opinion. Overall, though, I think these films need to be viewed separately from the 1930's-1950's output, and they need a little more credit than they get.
-Matthew

[angilbas]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matthew Hunter
[B] "Injun Trouble" sounds funny...too bad nobody's ever seen it.

"Injun Trouble" was in the first "Merrie Melodies" syndication package, which was issued around 1972. Cool Cat drives across the desert in a mini-SUV (called a 'dune buggy' in those days) and goes through a series of Old West-type spot gags (some of which are groaners, but at least the sort you love to groan at). The atmosphere's cheerful throughout, the Indians do nothing worse than tell bad jokes, and there's a neat end gag (set in a "Topless Saloon"!).

-Tony

[Pilmedium]

So, someone actually has seen the 1969 "Injun Trouble". What about "Hocus Pocus Pow Wow"(1968)?

[barnyarddawg]

Originally posted by Pilmedium
So, someone actually has seen the 1969 "Injun Trouble". What about "Hocus Pocus Pow Wow"(1968)?

One of the regulars here has Hocus Pocus Powwow on 16mm, but I'm not telling who :D (It's not me :( )

There's a plot summary for The Door (http://us.imdb.com/Plot?0062903) on the imdb.

Does the description of The Door sound familiar to anybody?

[Pilmedium]

Originally posted by barnyarddawg
One of the regulars here has Hocus Pocus Powwow on 16mm

Jon Cooke did give a hint a while back that he would be getting some more. I wonder if that's who it is. Don't get angry at me, because I'm only guessing.

[Gossamer]

Originally posted by barnyarddawg




There's a plot summary for The Door (http://us.imdb.com/Plot?0062903) on the imdb.

Does the description of The Door sound familiar to anybody?

I saw The Door many, many years ago, I think it was in a package of independently produced shorts that was sold in syndication. Either that or it was part of a series PBS did in the late 1970s called The International Festival of Animation. It's been a LOOOONG TIME ago! Good cartoon, a bit unusual. I think WB just distributed The Door. I don't think they produced it in-house.

[Matt Yorston]

Gossamer is right. The 1968 cartoon "The Door" is a WB cartoon in distribution terms only.

It was produced at the Silver-Campbell-Cosby studio. The Cosby name in that moniker is none other than good ol' comedian Bill Cosby! He was kind of "close" with Warner Brothers if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that's why he got them to distribute his company's cartoon.

"The Door" is noteworthy as being the only theatrical cartoon to be distributed by Warner Bros. without its being made at WB itself.

[Matt Yorston]

..er, that is, if you don't count the 1930-1933 cartoons which were made by Harman/Ising studios and distributed by WB and the 1933-1944 cartoons that were made at Leon Schlesinger Productions.

:o

[J Lee]

...and the opening/closing title and bridging sequences to 1964's "Porky Pig Show" for ABC, which were done in New York (in-between the studio's closing and the D-FE contract) by Hal Seeger Productions, reportedly with Fleischer/Famous head animator Myron Waldman in charge of animation.

And, as I said in another post somewhere recently, the Cos had made Warners some big $$$ for its record division with his mid-1960s comedy albums, so picking up "The Door" for distributorship may have been Warner's way of saying "Thanks." The fact that "Norman Normal" was done by Paul Stookey of the Warner-produced folksinging group Peter, Paul and Mary (who also did a song of the same name) adds to the likelihood that the animation unit was being used to give the record division a little boost.