Evangelion- Is it overrated? [Archive]

RD!

12-16-2006, 12:46 PM

Thank you for the generally uneeded tone in what was supposed to be a serious attempt at this discussion, not just two sides lining up and taking shots at each other.You've been here since 2001. I'm sure you've noticed in your nearly 6 years of posting that there have been numerous discussions on Evangelion being overrated or not--more than there is honest discussion of the actual show. It's stupid and pointless because everyone in this thread is going to say it's overrated and that is my point. Everyone who has seen Evangelion but knows some cool kid on the internet who didn't like it will claim it is overrated and then on the sole basis that other people like it will like it less.

So by the standards of everyone with an account calling it overrated I am stating that it is very underrated.

HellCat

12-16-2006, 12:52 PM

You've been here since 2001. I'm sure you've noticed in your nearly 6 years of posting that there have been numerous discussions on Evangelion being overrated or not--more than there is honest discussion of the actual show. It's stupid and pointless because everyone in this thread is going to say it's overrated and that is my point. Everyone who has seen Evangelion but knows some cool kid on the internet who didn't like it will claim it is overrated and then on the sole basis that other people like it will like it less.

So by the standards of everyone with an account calling it overrated I am stating that it is very underrated.

Looking at the poll, it's about even between "It's overrated" and "It's fine". The whole point of this thread is to have a civil discussion, not "Eva sucks!" "Oh no you didn't!". I myself have often called it overrated, yet you'll not that the poll is more open to the opposite view. It's quite possible to have a mature discussion. You mention I've been here since 2001. That's correct and in my almost 6 years here I've learned to respect this community enough to believe it's members can have a mature and reasonable discussion, ignoring fanboy bias.

Andrew T. Hingson

12-16-2006, 12:54 PM

Evangelion is a good anime but I can't for the life of me understand why people obsess over it. It's not THAT good.

RD!

12-16-2006, 12:56 PM

Looking at the poll, it's about even between "It's overrated" and "It's fine". The whole point of this thread is to have a civil discussion, not "Eva sucks!" "Oh no you didn't!". I myself have often called it overrated, yet you'll not that the poll is more open to the opposite view. It's quite possible to have a mature discussion. You mention I've been here since 2001. That's correct and in my almost 6 years here I've learned to respect this community enough to believe it's members can have a mature and reasonable discussion, ignoring fanboy bias.I don't think you even read a word I wrote. I give up. Enjoy your thread.

Zeonic Freak

12-16-2006, 12:58 PM

I dont think its as overrated as it was 5 years ago... its gotten worse now due to more of the anime movement in america. Heck, 5 years ago i didnt know much of it and a year later my soph year my friend let me borrow his first 2 vhs tapes... which after seeing those i was like "mmm... ill have to look into this".

HellCat

12-16-2006, 01:21 PM

I don't think you even read a word I wrote. I give up. Enjoy your thread.

Yes, because I haven't just accepted your view as right I'm clearly not showing you any respect and couldn't have read your post. What a jerk I am...

GWOtaku

12-16-2006, 01:33 PM

Well, I voted for overrated. Its definitely overrated if only because of the "best anime ever made" claims. You can argue about its influence, but that's not the same thing as greatness.

I can see how it was great for its time, but it hasn't aged well. Its alleged deepness and complexity has, I think, long since been surpassed by any number of amazing shows that have been made since the mid 90's, like Noein and Ergo Proxy just to name a couple.

I also don't buy the brillance assigned to the second half of the show. Its the product of a depressed man going through some serious issues. It may be true that a genius is at least a bit crazy, but there's such a thing as taking a proverb way too far. There are people that overanalyze the final two episodes as if they're coherent philosophy, when for the most part they're a prolonged rant.

If we want to talk about its standing within the mecha genre (I'll put aside the fact that technically the EVA's aren't mechs), I'd say its not that good. The monster of the week formula is nothing new. EVA also introduced the the whiny, pathetic protagonist in Shinji, which definitely hasn't left the genre better off. Since EVA the concept of the emo kid protagonist has been driven into the ground.

Which ties into another aspect I dislike, the fact that nearly all of the characters are dysfunctional and completely unlikable. Maybe some people enjoy watching living, breathing trainwrecks, but when there's no one to root for a show becomes a lot less enjoyable by default. Its not realistic, its just playing up drama for its own sake.

rubberchicken

12-16-2006, 03:29 PM

It's a classic. May as well say that MSG is overrated and it's time to move on.

EDIT: Seriously, why is it "gee, it's time to move on?" Should we stop enjoying a show after it reaches a certain age? It's hardly as though every single topic gets derailed into an EVA-praise session. Hell, the EVA discussion these days seems to get started by people who think the show is overrated.

Juu-kuchi

12-16-2006, 03:30 PM

Yes it is overrated, mainly because of how I see some people thinking of it as a revered title with 'amazing' deepness and complexity which explains human nature and so forth. Despite that though, I consider it one of the anime that people need to see, so that you can watch that show what everyone is talking about (and some revere) and consider your own views on it.

Which ties into another aspect I dislike, the fact that nearly all of the characters are dysfunctional and completely unlikable. Maybe some people enjoy watching living, breathing trainwrecks, but when there's no one to root for a show becomes a lot less enjoyable by default. Its not realistic, its just playing up drama for its own sake. Everything went well until the second half, then they became jerks and even more pathetic excuses of human beings.

Except for Kaji. Kaji is exempt from this.

Ragebot

12-16-2006, 04:41 PM

It's a classic. May as well say that MSG is overrated and it's time to move on.

You know, I've been thinking about this lately. I only recently got into watching both Zeta and Evangelion after hearing just about an equal amount of hype about them.

Starting with Zeta, while I'm only 30 episodes in, I think the series is extremely overrated. It's badly stilted and dated in terms of drama and gets an unusual amount of praise at the expense of other series' like Gundam Seed. (Please note that I do like UC. Particularly the Movie trilogy and 0080.)

Eva is currently my favourite animated series and The End Of Evangelion is one of my favourite movies of all time. I do believe that it earns its hype (even though I do NOT understand why it was insanely popular in Japan; so in that context it might very well be overrated) simply do to the sheer visceral and emotional impact of the show. I think it's very much a classic and has never been surpassed by any other series. Is it perfect? Well, no. The manga adaptation proves that changes could've been made for the better and the show's pacing and budget problems might pull some people off. But few shows have rewarded me so much as Eva and I think that counts for a lot.

Gatomon41

12-16-2006, 04:45 PM

Eva seemed disappointing because of the ammount of hype it gets. From what I heard of this series, its supposed to be an ultraviolent, bloodfest with the deepest characters and philosophy, and other R-rated stuff, and is the best show in existance. Boy, did my expectations get dashed when i first saw it.

Sure the plot, story, and characters are great, but its not exactly the greatest. Story wise, they failed. All it does in the latter half was to show how dysfunctional people get. But I've seen better angst in expressionism.

The protagonists are interesting, but can you really relate to them? Shinji, Rei, Gendo, and Asuka are often irratating. Are these the heros you really want to root for? A whinny little boy, a drunkard, a creepy girl, a brat, and some guy with issues. The only likable guys are are of to the side, not whining or being jerks.

Then there's the technobabble. There are times in Eva in which its like watching Voyager. And then there's the art, which is starting to look dated.

Eva is good, and way better than most Star Trek episodes. It was influencial when it first came out. however, don't expect it to win a Nova or Hugo award. The series could have done better to deliever.

Ragebot

12-16-2006, 04:57 PM

Then there's the technobabble. There are times in Eva in which its like watching Voyager.

At least the technobabble in Eva is (IMO, anyway) dramatic and interesting. Not to mention that the characters don't turn into salamanders.

rubberchicken

12-16-2006, 05:05 PM

They do turn into orange Tang, though.

Juu-kuchi

12-16-2006, 05:22 PM

They do turn into orange Tang, though. I always thought it was just unformed orange jello.

Funkmasta Zeph

12-16-2006, 07:13 PM

K-S-O

12-16-2006, 07:37 PM

Overrated? Maybe, due to all the hype... but I can still enjoy the show for what it is right?

Conekiller

12-16-2006, 07:51 PM

I remember watching it just as it had finished comming out. I had heard it was good, but it had not received the " the best anime evar" award. At the time, I had not seen many other things that make me think struck me as mature (argue maturity in the show all you want, but from my POV it was leaps and bounds over anything else I had seen till then)

So yes, from when it came out, where I was at my life, it was a fantastic show and I recommend it to anyone who asks. I'm aware it doesn't apply to everyone (apparently there are many people who feel that some loner kid not wanting to risk his physical and mental wellbeing killing giant monsters for his jerkoff dad is annoying. )

So basically, if you don't like it, fine, but there's absolutely no reason to poopoo on the people who do find something enjoyable in it. I don't like Yugioh for many reasons, but I don't go around talking smak about the show to it's fans. It's called respect ,people.

Strollymonster

12-16-2006, 08:04 PM

It is overrated in the sense that there are a lot of people that consider it to be the end-all be-all of anime achievement ever and that anyone who disagrees is some sort of heretic.

It's also underrated in a sense that many newer anime fans take a look at a few episodes without committing to the series, look at the fanbase and then claim that it doesn't deserve any of the accolades that it gets.

I should clarify: I LOVE Evangelion. It's my absolute favorite anime AND TV show that I've ever witnessed in my life, and it's had an impact on my thinking and perception of existence ever since I discovered it. I have a hard time imagining what my life would be like if I hadn't had my thought processes changed by Eva.

That said, that's only MY opinion. I'm not going to argue with people that disliked it, and I'm not going to pretend that the series didn't have it's share of problems. It's also true that it's also a pretty old show and isn't the best-looking thing around anymore.

Regardless of how much you like or dislike the series, it is hard to argue against the fact that it is one of the watershed moments in animation history, and has greatly influenced most top anime series since in some way.

rubberchicken

12-17-2006, 01:54 AM

If I were to disqualify shows because there were certain elements I found less-than-perfect, I wouldn't be able to watch any anime at all (well, except for Satoshi Kon films.)

beren

12-17-2006, 02:05 AM

The last couple of episodes of evangellion are my favorite episodes of any anime ever made. If you have seen the series, think about what I said and try to figure out why I think that. I think alot of people over hype it, maybe the best thing to say is that it is a great series, the best thing is to always let people draw their own conclusions.

Weatherman

12-17-2006, 03:10 AM

Peronally I do think it's a bit over exposed. It's a very good show. For better or for worse, GAINAX took every dollar they got for the show and threw it at the screen and let Anno write exactly what he wanted to without distubing his vision for the project. It is a brilliant look at the total destruction of a person from the inside out if you go with the angle of Shinji as a stand in for Anno himself and the other characters filling in the requiste roles in his life.

It has certainly had an undeniable effect on aniem fandom and product since it came out. Everyone not doing a shonen or shoujo show is always tryong to remake it somehow and the art style to propelled forward is still thre predominant form. Heck, conventions still do panells about what Eva means in all of it's glory.

But I still think it's overrated in that it's become the measureing stick by which other shows are judged, and that's unfair to it and to the other shows. It is a very unique project that I don't think could be duplicated by anyone looking to make it again or make something like it.

Also, as some other have stated, the characters, even Kaji since he was a cheater, vary from somewhat to completely unlikeable, the art work suffers from the criminally small budget streatched way beyond its means and it gets way too lost in the emotional pit that was Anno's head at the time for somethign that was supposed to be an apolcalyptic mecha show. It's a classic, but it's still over rated.

Disco Pete

12-17-2006, 06:35 AM

Over-, Under-, and Around-Rated.

I think it's Too-Many-Rated, that is, too many people have to spread their opinion of the show, confusing those who haven't seen it.

Imagine you're just getting into anime; you look on the interweb for show suggestions. Eva is on that list, but it's also on many "Worst. Animes. EVAR."-type lists. Confusing? You better believe it.

The guys who believe the hype end up being disappointed when it doesn't live up to expectations. And the guys who believe the nay-sayers just don't see the show.

Seeing K-S-O's post reminded me of a certain show (cough:haruhi:cough) that got a lot of buzz when it was on Japanese TV. But I waited, first because I figured a show that talked-about would get a R1 DVD release really fast. Then, as time passed, I thought about watching a couple of episodes to sample it, but the way it was being hyped scared me off.
(I eventually overcame the hype and decided to make up my own mind.)

And here's my opinion of Eva, so I'll ask those of you who haven't seen it to please not read the following paragraph. Your head is scrambled enough on this subject.

It's an ok show. Not the uber-fans want us to believe, but it's got some nice comedy episodes here-and-there, and exciting not-mecha fights. But when it tries to be deep it gets confusing, then plain boring. Maybe I just "don't get it". Less psudo-psychology and random kanji flashing the screen; More destroying Tokyo-3, Pen-Pen, and Kaji, 'cuz he's "Da Pimp".;)

Classic Speedy

12-17-2006, 09:52 AM

Eva's not my favorite anime of all time, especially since its replay value is very slim for me. Yeah, I know that watching it over again lets you see things in the background that you didn't realize were significant before. I'm more talking about re-watching it just because it was so much gosh darn fun the first time. Eva isn't that kind of show, unless seeing characters unravel mentally over the course of a dozen episodes is your idea of a good time. Yeah, it's INTERESTING and certainly worthy of discussion and debate, but not particularly ENJOYABLE.

NEVERTHELESS, I can't deny its impact, nor its craft. The action scenes were really well-done (if too often short), the quick flashes and cuts gave the show some unique visual flair, and while its budget was really limited in the later half of the series, Gainax was able to mask it fairly well. The music really brings you into the show, from its hard-hitting timpani fight music to its stark, repetitive ambience in depression scenes- heck, there's even the LACK of music plenty of times in the series, emphasizing its "alone" mood even further. The show took lots of risks in its storytelling by giving various backstory clues at random points in the series, as well as its mature themes (such as most anything involving Misato), existential talk (mostly by Shinji) and its equally cerebral episodes 25 & 26, which really delved into the darker and hidden aspects of the human mind. Did these risks pay off? That's debatable, but atleast it made Eva unique, especially for its time.

So do I call it overrated or underrated? I don't really know. To be honest, I think Strawberry Jam hit the nail on the head early in the thread about its status in the anime fandom. There are soooooo many fanboys/girls of the show, and just as many who hate it for various reasons (including hating it simply because others go ga-ga over it instead of other series they feel are more deserving) that it's really impossible to call it overrated or underrated. It's a show that people either love or hate, and so in my eyes, it's a pretty split opinion.

HellCat

12-17-2006, 01:25 PM

Just to say once again, this thread isn't intended as a witch hunt, hence why it's "Is it overrated?" not "It's overrated, prove it isn't".

Personally, I don't discount Eva as a good show. There are interesting elements like the philosophy and Shinji's personal growth. From an industry standpoint I can see how landmark it was and why it has a lasting influence. However, I do believe it's overrated. Mostly that's fanboys and published anime reviewers acting like the secrets life itself are locked within the series. To be brutally honest, if I took Eva as the focal example of anime as some of these critics say I'd walk away believing it's a sub-group of animation based on flash cuts, loose symbolism, freakish imagery and emotional wrecks.

I believe the show deserves to be acknowledged for the important impact it made and that it's a decent show in it's own right. At the same time, I can respect people who are fans of the series. However, I don't believe at all it's the benchmark all other shows need to be compared against nor that anyone who doesn't care for it is ignorant. Even the director himself is shown to greatly dislike the very fans who claim of its unparrelled genius.

Conan-san

12-17-2006, 01:51 PM

Manga is far better.

Leaping Larry Jojo

12-17-2006, 02:37 PM

It is both overrated and underrated.

Andrew T. Hingson

12-17-2006, 03:39 PM

Manga is far better.

I think I can agree with that much.

Golgo13

12-17-2006, 03:44 PM

I do believe it's overrated in it's appeal, BUT I think it's underrated in it's ambition.

Sheamon

12-17-2006, 03:51 PM

You know, I've been thinking about this lately. I only recently got into watching both Zeta and Evangelion after hearing just about an equal amount of hype about them.

Starting with Zeta, while I'm only 30 episodes in, I think the series is extremely overrated. It's badly stilted and dated in terms of drama and gets an unusual amount of praise at the expense of other series' like Gundam Seed. (Please note that I do like UC. Particularly the Movie trilogy and 0080.)

Zeta Overrated? :eek: Yeah, I actually would agree with that. Its a good show, a great show, but the hype surrounding it went way overboard. Its fully understandable why it happened though. With the show being delayed over and over and over again and the hype out there about it being so good, it was undoubtingly gonna be somewhat of a dissappointment when it finally arrived in the US. That said, I still would say that its probably my favorite Gundam.

Anyway, while I would put Eva in my top 5 animes of all time, arguably top 3 animes of all time, there is no doubt in my mind that it is overrated. Is it a well written show? Certainly! Its an extremely good show and deserves most of its popularity, I won't disagree with that. That said, I do have my qualms with Eva, and its fanbase. Namely:
1) Except for Misato, the characters are extremely unlikable, particularly as the series draws to a close.
2) The original TV ending is arguably the worst ending in the history of anime
3) Even ignoring eps 25 and 26, the show's quality started decreasing after episode 20, most notably how they handled Kaworu, Rei's death, and those 2 absurd pauses.
4) Its conceptual impact is absurdly taken out of context and is overblown to a ridiculous extent.

purplehairedwonder

12-17-2006, 04:14 PM

Sandoz

12-17-2006, 08:33 PM

Eva is overrated only in the sense that no film or television series can ever be "the best" of its kind because such rankings are purely subjective.

Evangelion has been my favorite anime seies for years, and I'm not ashamed to admit that. In my view, it's a very good series with occasional moments of greatness. It is an extremely important and influential series, and yes, it is a classic.

It's a classic. May as well say that MSG is overrated and it's time to move on.

EDIT: Seriously, why is it "gee, it's time to move on?" Should we stop enjoying a show after it reaches a certain age? It's hardly as though every single topic gets derailed into an EVA-praise session. Hell, the EVA discussion these days seems to get started by people who think the show is overrated.
Yes, I agree that the "get over it" attitude a lot of anime fans give to even just casual fans of the show is getting silly. It's developing into a mob mentality that's just as bad as the "rabid" Eva fans who apparently overhype it.

And some people seem to have the mistaken idea that "I didn't like it" = "It has no merits whatsoever and sucks on toast".

Manga is far better.
Strongly disagree. The manga makes certain improvements to the story (how it handles Kaworu, for example) but is also quite flawed (I could do without Sadamoto's interpretation of "Saint Rei" for example).

Timmay

12-17-2006, 09:39 PM

It was a very different show from what I was used to when I watched it (only two years ago..). I loved the complete and utter destruction of the minds of all the characters.

I.R Joey

12-18-2006, 02:49 AM

Is Eva overated. I think like many people I'll say both yes and no.

I think Eva's influence is undeniable. Essentially it was for Mech anime what the Watchman was for superheros.

Deconstruction.

Think about it, the show took the assumptions of the giant robot genre, put them in a cannon, and blew them to pieces.

Pro: Eva really takes apart the idea that a teenager, getting into a giant robot to fight monsters every week would work out (it does in many anime.) I mean think about it, you give a person going through one of the most turbulent confusing times in life (puberty) a giant, mobile, weapon of mass destruction send them into combat and they always save the day? Then there are the normal pressures of keeping up with studies, maintaining a social life, and trying to get to know a bunch of new people. Add to that the personal issues in the pasts of the Eva pilots (particularly Asuka and Shinji's) and you have a recipe for a volatile explosion. Again many mech anime, for the arguably noble sake of escapism, avoid these logical conclusions but Eva should be applauded for really looking at it and making the rest of the industry look hard at it.

Con:On the other hand one could easily argue that the series was very pretentious, particularly later on, with its use of religous imagery. Like it was trying to appear deeper than it was just by putting on the fascade of theological investigation.

Pro: The charecters on Eva were some of the most fleshed charecters I've ever seen in a 26 episode anime. Pretty much each major charecter had one spotlight episode that underlined their strengths and weaknesses. The people were three dimensional, made bad decisions, good descisions, and even some that I'm still not sure about. The relationships were actually complex and layered. Misato and Ritsko were definately friends, but anyone paying attention could see that they were friends on Ritsko's terms not Misato's. That along with their often conflicting proffesional roles created a tremendous amount of tension. Misato (and Ritsko to a certain extent) took their relationships with their parents into their adult love lives. An incredibly true charecter tick that other writers rarely ever touch on (somewhat Freudian mind you but not in the gross way:ack: .) Even Shinji and Asuka's relationship had a wonderful push and pull where they both attracted and repelled each other that was very human.

Con: I, unlike other people, don't think that Eva's ending was a cop out. I think it made sense, well the way I interpreted it anyway, in the light of the series. Essentially sending all of the charecters to a therapist on a large scale definately fit the tone of the series. That does not excuse how cheap Gainax suddenly got. I don't know if it was the budget or what, but their attempt to try a diffrent visual style for the last two episodes really fell flat for me.

Pro: Really interesting Mech designs, that obviously influenced the rest of the industry. The idea that the Eva's were just as much living creatures as they were robots was fascinating and lead to an interesting asthetic during their fights with some of the more abstractly designed angels.

Con: Many people might argue that the earlier episodes were filler (I won't) but there were times when it seemed like they went on tangents that didn't directly aid the plot. I loved them as charecter studies, but ones that advanced the story more might have helped.

So those are my thoughts on the controversial anime series Evangelion and why I think it's both overated and underated.

And to whoever mentioned Zeta Gundam's flaws I recomend the topic I started this month on the subject. I can see some of the flaws you're talking about, but I also think there were some really good ideas in the series that the were really developed.

J'onn J'onzz

12-18-2006, 01:23 PM

For me, Eve just didn't really keep my attention. I made it through the series, but there were times that it was really hard to get through; it almost felt like watching the episodes were like wading through mud. But I wanted to finish it to say that I've seen it. It was an alright show, but I just never enjoyed it all that much. Kaji and Misato were about the only characters I liked all that much. I really felt like more could have been done with Kawrou, too. Overall, I can see that Eva has been very influential, but for me it just wan't especially enjoyable.

The "Angelic Days" manga does more with Kaoru, but a lot of it is "OMG KAORU IS TEH YAOI!!!!1!" type stuff...

Edit: I voted "No, it's fine." simply because so many people hate it. I fail to see how a series can be overrated when almost everyone either hates it or says it's overrated. It can't be overrated if no one thinks that positively of it. (Though apparently it does have SOME fans judging by this thread.)

HellCat

12-18-2006, 01:43 PM

The "Angelic Days" manga does more with Kaoru, but a lot of it is "OMG KAORU IS TEH YAOI!!!!1!" type stuff...

Edit: I voted "No, it's fine." simply because so many people hate it. I fail to see how a series can be overrated when almost everyone either hates it or says it's overrated. It can't be overrated if no one thinks that positively of it. (Though apparently it does have SOME fans judging by this thread.)

I wouldn't say fans and overrated go hand in hand. It's quite possible to like something highly, yet be respectable in broadcasting that. Eva suffers from having a large number of watchers who rather than simply stop at "I really liked it, you should try it" have to insist it's the greatest thing any human mind shall ever create.

Dr. Anime

12-18-2006, 01:46 PM

I love Evangelion, but I don't worship it, and I don't think that it's the be all end all anime that many fans say it is.

Leaping Larry Jojo

12-18-2006, 08:47 PM

Evangelion in my opinion hasn't really aged well production-wise, but it still leaves some iconic images and at the time, a number of themes it touched on spoke to me. Themes like loneliness, anti-social behaviour, fear of human relationships...they were things I'd been through and I could relate to, and I felt it dissected these themes in a more raw and blunt way than any other show I'd seen at the time.

In recent years, many shows have followed up on that and presented these themes in more polished and entertaining ways, but Eva's in-your-face presentation of these themes struck a chord in me.

I personally think Evangelion and His and Her Circumstances are really two sides of the same show, actually. But I feel that His and Her Circumstances' less prone to navel gazing and sidetracking, which makes it my preferred show when it comes to character observation. I frankly did not care about the whole dead-sea scrolls plot in Eva, nor did it matter to me "what" the angels were. I was just fascinated by the harsh psychoanalyzing in the last 9 or so episodes.

I would imagine that those people with a healthy social life and no real history of depression would have absolutely no interest in Eva, though. It's really kind of a nerd's show, because nerds tend to be isolated outcasts more often than not.

So there's both good and bad in the show, which makes it both underrated and overrated.

unknown hero

12-19-2006, 02:04 PM

A few years ago it was a bit overhyped, but mainly because it is known as one of the anime shows that helped bring attention and interest to anime in America. I watched it 6 years ago and it got me hooked into anime. While it does show its age, it is an example of the difference of style and plot we would normally see in american cartoons.

Dave1999

12-19-2006, 02:35 PM

I think alot of people see it as pretensious because of it's overly complex plot. More people now than a few years ago are jabbing it as overated.

I think I've only seen about five episodes also on sci-fi a few year back. Never have the time to buy all the DVDs and have an eva marathon on a Saturday :sweat:

Treadwell

12-20-2006, 02:57 PM

Themes like loneliness, anti-social behaviour, fear of human relationships...they were things I'd been through and I could relate to, and I felt it dissected these themes in a more raw and blunt way than any other show I'd seen at the time.
...I was just fascinated by the harsh psychoanalyzing in the last 9 or so episodes.

Interesting, thanks for that angle. To me, though, if they wanted to make a show about that, then they should've been up front about it and not done a switcheroo three-quarters of the way through. I thought I was going to get a mecha show, and then all of a sudden I'm a fly on the wall in a therapist's office. Not my idea of entertainment.

Bubblegum Girl

12-20-2006, 05:59 PM

Please Pokemon and DBZ is way overrated than Evangelion. I mean I'm still waiting for the latest volume of the manga version to come out...

Hanshotfirst113

12-20-2006, 06:03 PM

Oh, god. What have I done?

HellCat

12-20-2006, 06:28 PM

Oh, god. What have I done?

This thread wasn't started at all because of you. Get over yourself...

Lutochris

12-26-2006, 01:04 PM

I wouldn't say fans and overrated go hand in hand. It's quite possible to like something highly, yet be respectable in broadcasting that. Eva suffers from having a large number of watchers who rather than simply stop at "I really liked it, you should try it" have to insist it's the greatest thing any human mind shall ever create.

You know I hear about these people all the time, but I've yet to meet anyone like that. I think Eva has more people who say it's overrated than people who actually overrate it.

One of Eva's primary themes is the division of the Ego from the objective world, the idea that there are as many truths as there are people. When I first saw Eva in it's entirety (meaning the episodes and movies, both are required), it pretty much changed my core beliefs about life, as well as my entire manner of thinking. Maybe it has to do with where I was in my life, but it's effect was literally that powerful. Hell, in the 6 months I spent watching it, I learned more about life than I did in an entire 12 years of studying the Bible in Catholic school. That was the experience for me, and thus I consider it to be my favorite TV show/movie ever, but obviously it's not going to have that effect on everyone. For whatever reason some people are just unmoved by it. And interestingly enough, that idea is expressed in both the last episode and the movie. Therefore, any Eva fan who berates someone for not liking Eva is automatically a hypocrite.

That being said, there are a lot of people who seem to hate it just for the sake of going against the grain, without seriously considering it. And there's people who hate the ending without seeing the movies, and I cannot over-emphasize how important the movies are.

Another point I can make is that it pretty much re-affirmed my faith in anime. I was getting pretty tired of anime in general, and I figured I'd watch Eva just to see what everyone was talking about. It pretty much single-handedly reinvigorated my interest. Since then I've sought out shows that emphasize the human side of characters and introspectiveness over stylishness and a mostly objective view, and I've realized that since Eva there seem to be a lot of those.

Leaping Larry Jojo

12-26-2006, 01:40 PM

Interesting, thanks for that angle. To me, though, if they wanted to make a show about that, then they should've been up front about it and not done a switcheroo three-quarters of the way through. I thought I was going to get a mecha show, and then all of a sudden I'm a fly on the wall in a therapist's office. Not my idea of entertainment.

I can see your point. But if it was just another mecha show, Evangelion would just be another title sitting on the store shelves groaning with "me too" mecha shows. All the talk about Eva right now wouldn't even exist.

HellCat

12-26-2006, 01:45 PM

You know I hear about these people all the time, but I've yet to meet anyone like that. I think Eva has more people who say it's overrated than people who actually overrate it.

Just because you haven't meant such people, don't assume they don't exist.
To be honest, you were a big reason I made this thread. I felt our past clashes on the matter hadn't shown you enough respect and so wanted a fair and balanced discussion, not just two extremes going at each other. That said, your most recent comments make it sound like you've made a religion of this show.

Lutochris

12-26-2006, 02:50 PM

If I were trying to make a religion out of it, I would be out to convert other people. But as you can see from my previous post, one of the most important themes of the show is that the truth is different for everyone, and so an Eva fan trying to "convert" others would be hypocritical in nature.

That being said, I know that I'm not alone (even on this forum) in the way in which it impacted me. And for something to have moved so many people so deeply, even if you're not one of them, you can't deny it's power. I never cared much for the Bible or "real" religion, but I would never be so arrogant as to deny the power it has for many people, even if I'm not one of them.

I'm glad you want to have a civil discussion, as I never get tired of talking Eva. If you want I can give a more detailed explanation of why I found it to be so moving.

J'onn J'onzz

12-26-2006, 02:54 PM

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=103298

This thread changed my mind. Eva is sorta overrated.

rubberchicken

12-26-2006, 04:30 PM

...some 12-year-old Internet troll starting a topic years ago to gush about his favorite show is enough to make it overrated?

Anime as a whole is doomed.

J'onn J'onzz

12-26-2006, 08:52 PM

...some 12-year-old Internet troll starting a topic years ago to gush about his favorite show is enough to make it overrated?

Anime as a whole is doomed.

Well... some overrated by some people is what this topic is about, right? That topic was a troll overrating the series... sort of.

rubberchicken

12-27-2006, 01:00 AM

Yeah, but if "some people" thinking a show is great makes it overrated, then the same can be said for pretty much any anime series in history.

Gundam. Love Hina. Ranma. One Piece. Akira. Ghost in the Shell. Anything by Miyazaki. Anything involving Satoshi Kon. Bleach. Naruto. DBZ. Haruhi. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Unless you think some of those shows have a magically higher standard of quality that makes them exempt, that is.

Ben

12-27-2006, 06:39 AM

It used to be highly overrated, but today the anime field is so crowded that its revolutionary influence is recognized but it's not a sacred cow. Which is as it should be.

Hanshotfirst113

01-18-2007, 10:18 PM

This thread wasn't started at all because of you. Get over yourself...

It was joke! And I got into a discussion about exactly this is a releated thread very recently, which got heated. I've deleted those posts now. I was just kidding.

OverMaster

01-19-2007, 01:06 PM

Yes it is overrated, mainly because of how I see some people thinking of it as a revered title with 'amazing' deepness and complexity which explains human nature and so forth. Despite that though, I consider it one of the anime that people need to see, so that you can watch that show what everyone is talking about (and some revere) and consider your own views on it.

Everything went well until the second half, then they became jerks and even more pathetic excuses of human beings.

Except for Kaji. Kaji is exempt from this.

Hey, not a single bad thing implied about Hikari in my presence, fella. :p

In any case, EVA is overratedly underrated by those who want to look superior over its rabid, fanatical overraters by being its even more rabid, fanatical underraters. Whatever the hell that meant. Meh, you must have gotten the idea anyway. What can I know, I think Full Metal Alchemist is kinda overrated too. But I believe that, by now, most of the EVA supporters and bashers enjoy insulting each other more than they enjoy debating the show itself.

By the way, have there been no more news on the EVA remake movies lately?

rubberchicken

01-19-2007, 08:54 PM

*bump*
Oh, the irony.

Hanshotfirst113

01-19-2007, 11:53 PM

Oh, the irony.

What? I'm lost. Explain.

Harvey Two Face

01-20-2007, 12:43 AM

I love the show no matter how much I watch it it never gets old, I guess it's from a deep seeded desire to watch it since I was'nt allowed to stay up to watch Adult Swim and Eva but when I did it was awesome.

FireWarrior

01-20-2007, 03:23 AM

I think its way overrated. Personally I never really got into it as other people have, and I certainly don't think it's anything classic. Despite my dislike of it, it did have some good points and I can't deny it's influence but I still think it's overrated.

Hanshotfirst113

01-22-2007, 11:24 PM

I just felt that the primary problem was hype. EVA certainly attempts something different than the vast majority of mecha clone shows out there. It's far from stupid; quite the contrary, perhaps too conviluted for its own good. I simply feel that it's repuation is rather unbalanced and that ultimately, it seems rather overexposed.

AstroNerdBoy

01-23-2007, 01:08 PM

Evangelion is a good anime but I can't for the life of me understand why people obsess over it. It's not THAT good.

People often look for things that are different and latch onto them, placing in them more meaning and brilliance than is actually there. So, you take a mecha series, introduce Catholic and Jewish religious mystic elements, and then end it with psycho-babble. Its different, and in the end, the style trumps substance, thus making it brilliant.

My dad learned this lesson years ago when he used to paint pictures. He has some beautiful paintings (and I'm not just saying that because he's my dad) but when entered into a contest, they were met with yawns. So, he slapped some paint on to a canvas, gave it some "brilliant" name, and won the prize. He had no meaning behind this painting beyond proving that style trumps over substance. Folks placed their own meaning into the painting that wasn't there.

The anime Honey and Clover takes a look at this since the characters all attend an art college (at the beginning anyway). One character needed to create an art piece as his final thesis before graduating has no clue what to make. So he just ends up mindlessly doing something that the professors find brilliant. When he destroys it, they find that brilliant. They are depressed at the slightest suggestion that his actions had no real meaning, and indeed refuse to accept that.

Back to EVA, I decided to watch it because of the hype. At the time, I had a negative impression of mecha titles because when I lived in Japan, I thought they were mostly stupid (can't say any title names because when you see these raw with no Japanese knowledge, it is impossible to remember the titles). But EVA was somewhat interesting in that the units had to have a power-cable attached to them, weren't all-powerful, and were different somehow that I couldn't put my finger on (I know the reason now -- they aren't true mecha).

In the end, when I saw how style was trumping substance, the title dropped some in my mind. Of course the ending made me just irritated (the ultimate in style over substance for me) and so I've not watched it again since.

I do want to re-watch the series with whatever extra stuff ADV added, so one day I may rent that or borrow it from someone who has it.

To be fair, the series did make me decide to take another look at mecha titles, which is why I decided to go ahead and watch Full Metal Panic..

Lutochris

01-26-2007, 05:19 PM

In the end, when I saw how style was trumping substance, the title dropped some in my mind. Of course the ending made me just irritated (the ultimate in style over substance for me) and so I've not watched it again since.

Explain how it's the "ultimate" style over substance? I'm guessing you're not talking about the TV ending, since that's about the complete opposite of style over substance. As for the movie (and the rest of the show for that matter), the only purely stylistic element that ever came up was the exploding crosses, which Gainax admitted they used just to make it look cool (and they don't even show up very often). Other than that, everything that happens in the show relates in some way to the personal struggles of the characters, or one of the more global themes. In fact I'd say Eva has more literary substance to it than any anime I've ever seen.

As for it's more surrealistic, abstract elements, and your story about your Dad's paintings, are you saying you believe all abstract art is empty style that pretentious people force meaning on? If not, then how do you differentiate between the substantive abstract art and the non-substantive?

RAINMAN

01-30-2007, 02:59 AM

Zeonic Freak

01-30-2007, 12:01 PM

Eva has runied mech animes for me. Almost every mech anime that has came out after it is a direct clone or has some sort of eva related stuff in it. Even gundam has become a victim of this whit gundam seed. Whatever happend to robotic?

So watch every mecha made before Eva, that should have a spark in your heart to watch robots duke it out!!!!

Hanshotfirst113

01-30-2007, 04:33 PM

Explain how it's the "ultimate" style over substance? I'm guessing you're not talking about the TV ending, since that's about the complete opposite of style over substance. As for the movie (and the rest of the show for that matter), the only purely stylistic element that ever came up was the exploding crosses, which Gainax admitted they used just to make it look cool (and they don't even show up very often). Other than that, everything that happens in the show relates in some way to the personal struggles of the characters, or one of the more global themes. In fact I'd say Eva has more literary substance to it than any anime I've ever seen.

As for it's more surrealistic, abstract elements, and your story about your Dad's paintings, are you saying you believe all abstract art is empty style that pretentious people force meaning on? If not, then how do you differentiate between the substantive abstract art and the non-substantive?

HOW? I keep hearing this, and I'm not necessarily saying that it's wrong, but WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU REFERRING TO? What in EVA is deeper than The Seventh Seal? It's perfectly possible that it missed it, I'm just wondering what people keep telling me about?

Roman Legion

01-30-2007, 06:36 PM

Abstract art... no asks that you like it. You're under no obligation to. However, those that complain about it the most seem to be those that understand it the least. At least familiarize yourself with why it is what it is, and even if you still don't appreciate it, maybe you'll have a better idea of what others see in it.

HOW? I keep hearing this, and I'm not necessarily saying that it's wrong, but WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU REFERRING TO? What in EVA is deeper than The Seventh Seal? It's perfectly possible that it missed it, I'm just wondering what people keep telling me about?Should I find it amusing that I've seen people argue about the Seventh Seal (among other classics) in the same manor others argue over Eva? The same accusations could really be leveled against the Seventh Seal. The Seventh Seal had a lot of this "style" stuff people find so shallow. Yet it's also supposedly deep, probably because all that "style" stuff is necessary to convey the "substance". If you change the presentation, the ideas can't be conveyed with the same power. In most so-called "brilliant" works, style and substance are intimately combined. I've heard accusations of "style over substance" a lot around here lately, and I'm beginning to wonder how everyone else is quantifying the two. Is it really so cut and dry?

--Romey

Hanshotfirst113

01-30-2007, 10:19 PM

Should I find it amusing that I've seen people argue about the Seventh Seal (among other classics) in the same manor others argue over Eva?

Which says a lot about EVA. You find Bergman overrated, I presume?

The same accusations could really be leveled against the Seventh Seal. The Seventh Seal had a lot of this "style" stuff people find so shallow. Yet it's also supposedly deep, probably because all that "style" stuff is necessary to convey the "substance".

It is deep, and the stylistic trappings are necessary. I will take that position and argue it. I'm not saying that that isn't true of EVA. I'm saying just the opposite. EOE is one of the deepest pieces of film I've ever watched. I don't claim to understand it, but that doesn't negate it's quality. I just want examples. Everyone says EVA is great. WHY? WHAT ELEMENTS ARE YOU REFERRING TO, that's all?

Abstract art... no asks that you like it. You're under no obligation to. However, those that complain about it the most seem to be those that understand it the least. At least familiarize yourself with why it is what it is, and even if you still don't appreciate it, maybe you'll have a better idea of what others see in it.

Are you referring to me? If you're saying that I don't understand it, you're correct. I'm not even necessarily criticizing it. I'm just trying to dig deeper. "You don't understand it" is a pretty loaded argument though.

I've heard accusations of "style over substance" a lot around here lately, and I'm beginning to wonder how everyone else is quantifying the two. Is it really so cut and dry?

That phrase is also pretty loaded. Michael Bay I would qualify as style over substance. Bergman? No, I wouldn't and I'll fight you on that. I'm probably the only young Bergman fan, but there you go.

Roman Legion

01-30-2007, 11:32 PM

Which says a lot about EVA. You find Bergman overrated, I presume?Actually, no. I quite enjoyed the Seventh Seal. I just thought it illustrated my point rather well, especially since the film had already been brought up.

Are you referring to me? If you're saying that I don't understand it, you're correct. I'm not even necessarily criticizing it. I'm just trying to dig deeper. "You don't understand it" is a pretty loaded argument though.No, I'm not referring to you or anyone else. It was mentioned, and I felt it deserved a quick general comment.

To clarify, I wasn't using "you don't understand it" in the way most would, especially not as an accusation of sorts. You don't necessarily have to understand it all "intellectually", and I'd be skeptical of anyone who claimed to completely understand it that way. I just meant that one should at least be aware of why it exists, how it came about at different points in history, and why it's upheld as having artistic value. Reducing abstract art to fluff thrown about by pretentious art people is, frankly, painfully naive.

Not that I deny the existence of pretentious art people, either...

--Romey

Zeonic Freak

01-31-2007, 01:06 PM

By the way, have there been no more news on the EVA remake movies lately?

'09 is when i belive the first or second one comes out... its going to be a while since ive been hearing of it since like 03/04 ish.

OverMaster

01-31-2007, 01:51 PM

'09 is when i belive the first or second one comes out... its going to be a while since ive been hearing of it since like 03/04 ish.

No, I'm not talking about the live action remake, but the new anime project from Gainax itself.

zmanjz

02-01-2007, 02:19 AM

Maybe it's like the A-Team or "The Last Starfighter"

Things like that were so much more impressive "Back in the Day" when they were cutting edge.

Heck I rememember being impressed by DBZ.

Now I compare DBZ to Naruto or Bleach and DBZ pales by comparison.

I would say the same for Eva.

Nowadays I find it two dimensional.

Far more so than what it could have been.

I look at Eureka 7 as the modernized version of Eva (As Gundam Seed is to Mobile Suit Gundam, so Eureka 7 is to Eva) , and what Eva would have been like with more depth to all the characters..... (and if Gendo wasn't a fricken bastard.)

Today... Eva is overrated as an enjoyable series, but it's historical impact and importance in the development of further anime is underrated.