The Trouble With Marvel Animation

[BigEclipse]

The main problem with Marvel's recent animated series lies in the creative forces behind them. What made the DCAU so popular was Bruce Timm. Even though there was a foundation built for future shows with Batman: The Animated Series, it was obvious that Timm and his partners had a true vision for the characters they were writing for. There needs to be a singular creative force behind all Marvel Animated projects, and a "bible" to work with before the show goes into production. It seems like the Fantastic Four, despite Christopher Yost saying there was a vision, was flying by the seat of its pants. Personally, I would place Boyd Kirkland in charge of Marvel's animated projects. He clearly had a vision of X-Men: Evolution and the show got stronger and stronger as it went on. It was as close to a DCAU show as Marvel has ever gotten in recent memory. Marvel should also use their "starting line-up", like X-men, the Avengers and Spider-Man. I know that Spidey's been done so many times in the past but no one interpretation has captured his true spirit. The two Ultimate Avengers movies were a step in the right direction, but more could have been done. As a life long Marvel fan I'm so tired of not having a decent Marvel show to latch onto as I did to Justice League or B:TAS. I own over 200 issues of X-Men and X-Men related comics, but only ONE Justice League America book. Yet, if someone said to pick between watching an episode of JLU or any X-Men show, I would pick JLU without hesitation. Storytelling should be at the heart of all shows, not product promotion. Apologies for the rant. Have a pleasant day.:)

[Arsenal]

What makes you think this latest rendition of FF is flying by the seat of its pants?

[Wonderwall]

All shows have bibles, a show can't be done without one.

[BigEclipse]

"Seems to be" and "is" are two different things. And if you want me to get anal retentive and clarify my aforementioned statement then so be it. The new FF series SEEMED to lack direction or focus. It is somewhat akin to the old Ninja Turtles show where the villian du jour showed up with a devious plot, the turtles would run around for twenty minutes cracking wise and then Donatello would save the day with some brilliant invention within the last two minutes. Insert Johnny, Ben and Reed and you have the same formula. The series didn't SEEM to be building to anything big, save maybe a Skrull-Kree conflict that was placed on the back burner for misadventures as microscopic heores or chasing after giant insects that spring from one of Reed's creations.

[Caswin]

The series didn't SEEM to be building to anything big, save maybe a Skrull-Kree conflict that was placed on the back burner for misadventures as microscopic heores or chasing after giant insects that spring from one of Reed's creations.The plot doesn't have to advance with every episode, does it? Besides, we only saw what, six episodes? I rather expect that Doom has something up his roomy green sleeves.

[S.C.B]

"Seems to be" and "is" are two different things. And if you want me to get anal retentive and clarify my aforementioned statement then so be it. The new FF series SEEMED to lack direction or focus. It is somewhat akin to the old Ninja Turtles show where the villian du jour showed up with a devious plot, the turtles would run around for twenty minutes cracking wise and then Donatello would save the day with some brilliant invention within the last two minutes. Insert Johnny, Ben and Reed and you have the same formula. The series didn't SEEM to be building to anything big, save maybe a Skrull-Kree conflict that was placed on the back burner for misadventures as microscopic heores or chasing after giant insects that spring from one of Reed's creations.

Batman: The Animated Series didn't build to anything big, and that's considered the best superhero animated show of all time.

Needless to say, I think you'll wind up in the minority here. I have issues with the 2006 Fantastic Four show, but the 'adventure of the week' apporach isn't one of them.

[Arsenal]

I agree with Super Chocolate Bear. I too have an issue or two with the new FF series (the generic nature of its adventures, for example); but I do not attribute them to a lack of focus.

I would assume from some of the hints we have seen and the loglines for as yet unaired episodes that some larger plots are coming. Things are building, but it seems like a slow build when the show is on an undetermined hiatus.

[rhino9]

The main problem with the current Marvel animation projects to me is a lack of heart. The characters seem like strangers unlike the ones I've enjoyed over the years. Change for change sake seems to be the motto. Let's not do a classic Avengers lineup and story, lets do an adult, edgy adaptation of the much overrated Ultimates. Of course when the final product is revealed, its not that adult or edgy at all. Just mediocre. Lets make the Fantastic Four a sitcom. Anything for a laugh. Sue will faint under pressure and Johnny will be a loudmouth who turns out to be a coward. Great.

And where are the villains?? Marvel has some great adversaries for all their heroes, but you won't find many here. Imagine the Avengers in battle with the Masters of Evil...Cap battling Baron Zemo, Thor grappling with the Absorbing Man, Iron Man tackling the Titanium Man. What do we get? Gereric, boring aliens. Not even Skrulls. When Doctor Doom shows up on the FF show we finally get two good episodes, one of which(the mind switch) is one of the best Marvel shows ever.

Visually both the dvds and the FF show are somewhat bland. Cap and Thor both would look better with their classic costumes. Johnny and Sue are almost unrecognizable. And that 4 on the Thing's chest....wonderful.

So where do we stand today in regards to Marvel's re-entry into animation? We have two dvds that supposedly have sold well but about which no one is talking. A tv series that has already been pulled from the air. Marvel is the largest producer of superhero comics on the planet. But not a single animated show featuring a Marvel character is currently on the air. DC has two shows going now with numerous others being re-run and sold as dvd box sets. DC is also gearing up to get into the direct-to-dvd market. They will feature the Teen Titans, Justice League and Superman. I bet they will be great. Compelling stories, exciting visuals and characters that ring true. What has Marvel announced as their next dvd?? Something described as "Teen Avengers". I can hardly wait.

[FireWarrior]

The main problem with Marvel's recent animated series lies in the creative forces behind them. What made the DCAU so popular was Bruce Timm. Even though there was a foundation built for future shows with Batman: The Animated Series, it was obvious that Timm and his partners had a true vision for the characters they were writing for. There needs to be a singular creative force behind all Marvel Animated projects, and a "bible" to work with before the show goes into production. It seems like the Fantastic Four, despite Christopher Yost saying there was a vision, was flying by the seat of its pants. Personally, I would place Boyd Kirkland in charge of Marvel's animated projects. He clearly had a vision of X-Men: Evolution and the show got stronger and stronger as it went on. It was as close to a DCAU show as Marvel has ever gotten in recent memory. Marvel should also use their "starting line-up", like X-men, the Avengers and Spider-Man. I know that Spidey's been done so many times in the past but no one interpretation has captured his true spirit. The two Ultimate Avengers movies were a step in the right direction, but more could have been done. As a life long Marvel fan I'm so tired of not having a decent Marvel show to latch onto as I did to Justice League or B:TAS. I own over 200 issues of X-Men and X-Men related comics, but only ONE Justice League America book. Yet, if someone said to pick between watching an episode of JLU or any X-Men show, I would pick JLU without hesitation. Storytelling should be at the heart of all shows, not product promotion. Apologies for the rant. Have a pleasant day.:)

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you in all points. Marvel animation seems to lack a strong consistency that the DC shows fortunately had, and it hurts it in the end. However there is still the Iron Man show, the X-men Show, and that Spider-Man DTV in the future, so I would say don't lose hope yet in Marvel animation. It may take time but hopefully Marvel will have its time in animation glory like DC had.

[Caswin]

Sue will faint under pressureSue fainted, um, once, didn't she? How many times did she faint in the 90s show?

Or does that fall under "current"? I don't seem to get exactly what era you're talking about.

[Hypestyle]

things seem to be falling into place with the DTV series, since these are being developed without a TV network partner/supervisor.. For Marvel to get Timm/Dini involved, they'd have to license a project to WB animation.. and of course-- don't hold your breath on that..

[HaagenDas]

I would use Spiderman to start off with. Have all of his traditional rogues in the 1st season including the Kingpin. Gwen Stacy dying at Norman Osbourne's hands. Spidey getting the black costume in the latter half of the 1st season, killing GG, and then discarding the costume which Eddie Brock gets. The season finale is Venom being formed.

2nd season should have him fighting Venom and then eventually Carnage. Introduce Felicia Hardy and Mary Jane.

While F4 is going on, have Reed Richards develop his sonic gun. This gun is what Spidey uses to attack Venom and Carnage.

Have an X-men series that is separate. The struggle with Magneto. Then teaming up with him against Sinister and Appocalypse.

Introduce a Captain America and the Avengers series. Show his origin in WW II. Him fighting alongside with Namor, Wolverine, Nick Fury.

Have Fury be the link between all the shows. SHIELD sponsoring X-Factor and the Avengers.

Have Kingpin take on Dare Devil, Spidey and Punisher at once. All the issues with those 3 is alone enough for a DTV.


I am just rambling on now, but it would take a long time and a lot more creative effort. A JLU type show would result in something called the Marvel Hour or somethign like that where all we have are crossovers.

Several scenarios bringing crossovers together:

-World War II scenario. Cap, Wolverine, Namor, PVT Nick Fury, a young baby Xavier, a slightly older Erik Lenscherr, Red Skull, a young Victor Von Doom. Appocalypse.

-Control of Europe's underground is a battle between Red Skull and Dr. Doom. Kingpin tries to get involved from the US. Captain Britain gets sucked in and calls on Cap America and the F4 for help. White Queen gets involved with her underground activities, alerting the X-Men and Excalibur.

-New York's crime wars erupt. Kingpin, Silvermane, DareDevil, F4, Spiderman, Punisher, Spidey's rogues, Elektra.

-Spidey vs Green, Hob and Demogoblin

-Spidey and the clone series. Ben Reilly the Scarlet Spider, Jackal, Carrion, Shriek, Venom, Doppelganger, Carnage, etc. One big happy family.

-Magic based. Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider,

-Family ties issues of Magneto with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. X-Men/Avengers crossover. Have Magneto's anti-Nazi sentiment come out against Red Skull as he tries to kill him...until the Avengers and X-Men stop Magneto.

-Blade hunting Morbius

-The Skrull Empire invading the Shi'ar Empire.

-The Infiniti Gauntlet

-Dark Phoenix vs Silver Surfer. Costar X-men

-Onslaught Saga

[Kazuya Prower]

-Spidey vs Green, Hob and Demogoblin


Demogoblin was born in the Inferno storyline as a possessed Hobgoblin and then separated from him years later. I wonder how they'll make him debut in animated form?

[Nygma]

Also BigEclipse it's worth noting that while marvel's television programs may not be on the same level as the DC's television programs, Marvel has absolutely crushed the DC in terms of quality on the big screen.

[Spider-Man]

It's pretty obvious the Marvel falls behind DC becuase they lack a cohesive structure. Ironically it seems that Marvel is now getting onto that strcutre while DC seems to be leaving it behind for more stand alone and unrelated adventures. I'm not saying that every Marvel cartoon from here on in will take place int he same universe but the same creative team driving each show seems to help give it a bit of eveness across the board.

[Aldrius]

The problem with marvel is that the stories don't translate to animation as well as DCs do. Everyone knows DC's heavy hitters. They know their backstories, and their weaknesses and their major adversaries...

But that's not just from comics. That's because of the Superman movie, the batman tv show, the batman movie...

If those things hadn't been successes then B:TAS would never have exsisted.

Granted, Spider-man has alot of that. He himself is very famous, in terms of his backstory and a few of his adversaries (the green goblin and dr. octapus are fairly well-known.)

I think a spider-man series that's well produced and plays into the 'down on his luck superhero' with a little 60's charm and some teen angst, and it'd do pretty well.

[Spider-Man]

I think almost any character can be translated to animation without a problem. What's so hard about Spider-Man's background to adapt? Or the X-Men? Or the Avengers, and so on. There's not much. The problem is usually the approach taken to confront these backstories or the corporate influences who try to make it more accessible to all ages therefore cutting out what could be essential bits of information or character traits.

[jbodin]

Also BigEclipse it's worth noting that while marvel's television programs may not be on the same level as the DC's television programs, Marvel has absolutely crushed the DC in terms of quality on the big screen.

You didn't see Batman Begins, I presume?

:shrug:

If you're basing your comment solely on Superboy, er, "Superman" Returns, then I'll cut you some slack on that comment, but Batman Begins was perhaps THE definitive superhero film adaptation -- I'd rank that and the first Spider-Man movie as being the top 2 superhero movies ever . . . which means that DC and Marvel are effectively tied for the top honors.

In my opinion, of course.

:cool:

[Aldrius]

Also BigEclipse it's worth noting that while marvel's television programs may not be on the same level as the DC's television programs, Marvel has absolutely crushed the DC in terms of quality on the big screen.

Batman: Mask of the Phantasm?

Granted that wasn't a financial success...