daedalus222
01-25-2002, 12:44 PM
Jl4ever I'm pretty busy at work but I read this thread about 2 days ago and had to after figuring out how to become a member---I simply had to respond to your comments from Naraht.
1st, as a HUGE comic fan of some 20 yrs. and as a member of the entertainment community--I am pretty disappointed in Timm and this new JL. Why?? Simple, IT IS AMATUERISH. Not only is it amatuerish but it is a vanity project that is being stifled from it's full potential. I like Timm....I really do like TIMM. But....Jeesus man! He DID NOT bring in EMMY-award winning writers as producers??? Come on! Why would u not do that when u are working on the biggest project in the DC cannon? I think it comes down to vanity. Timm got a big head, some people at Cartoon Network and Warner Bros. Studios got together and decided for cost purposes be better to have 1 superstar rather than the team and possibly filled Timm's head full of nonses and there we go. Egotism run amok for a show that should have brought out the absolute best in producing and writing.
To call the show a success is both silly and simply incorrect. A success to whom? To 8 yr old kids who have never seen Superfriends....well that's great--I doubt Timm wants their respect or his and Dini's Batman and Superman cartoons would have been the ass that JL is now. No, these gentleman want respect and want to push animation and JL so clearly does not. It's got big ratings some of you will say--but big friggin deal! This ius Cartoon Network! What new show featuring iconic characters doesn't get good ratings. I mean, Planet of the Apes by Tim Burton was considered a failure cuz it was critically lampooned and turned fans off. But, boy it did make close to $200 mil--that in Hollywood is a success even though they may never make another one now because of how bad a taste it left in fans' mouths. So, this show is no success. The Batmans, Batman Beyond cartoons --now that was a success.....critical and demos wise. I mean Timm or anyone on hee like JL4ver using that as a crutch is like Rick Fox taking credit for the success of the Lakers...hey man...when u got Jackson, Kobe and Shaq--there is no way on Earth that thing is not going to be a success despite some moron's assertion that he is the brainchild of it.
The writing! Without a date--the absolutely worst part of the show. HANDS DOWN! In fact, this is some of the SLOPPIEST writing I have ever seen in a cartoon. Here are some classic moments from the season thus far:
1. Batman magically appearing after supposedly being killed without so much as an explanation from Martian Manhunter during the alien capture scene in Secret Origins. (I mean Timm went out of his way to discuss in some condescending way how Morrison's run was alil too out there for conversion into animation but I think even a ool could have adapted Morrison's superior 1st effort with the white martians and the incredible showdown between Batman and the aliens one heck of a 3 part season opener---if all of u JL supporters have never read it--then becfore defending Timm and co--go get it...u might see why those of us who are offended by this version care so much). Paraide Lost was horrid. A stone warrior or robot that protects a statue?? The property damage?? WW just leaving for Themyscria in the middle of an obvious emergency (the whole beginnig sequence we know the set-up but why wasn't this shown over the span of weeks and have WW realize it is affecting her place HELPING humans and like Supes says--go home and fix this and she do that over the span of time--this would have ben believable-would have spared us the infamous fire truck scene and would have been honest to her character---it's just sloppy)
2. Superman period! His dialogue is the worst I have ever heard.
"I don't know what that thing is but I must stop it" . I do not want to get into voices yet (that's down alil ways) but lemme say this...if Newburn could act or like one poster said if he conveyed the confidence of Tim Daly's Superman (why oh why did they not convince this guy to come back????) then some lines might not sound so flat or stupid, "No approach them like a King"; "It's what they call on my world a frame-up". Still bad dialogue aside (and I agree with same poster that some dialogue just is sloppy--Superman would have just gotten angry and flown off after being knocked by that alien in Secret Origins and not uttering that classic--don't know what that thing is but I msut stop it line) the WORST thing with Supes is his depowering. WTF????? Why is this happeneing? Does anyone think it is necessary? Morrison not only used it but expanded it --like when Supes literally groudned the Earth or fought angels. My god this is a travesty of the character and for what??? so that dorky Flash can look cooler around the kids to sell his figures?? Give me a break. I will say this many times...but the episode of the Justice League Unlimited in Batman Beyond is not only a superior portrayal of the Justice League but it is a superior portrayal of a team with an ultra-powered superman. R u honestly telling me we had to have weak supes for this???
3. Weak Batman!! What the heck??? Batman the reason Timm and co are even making money in this biz and Timm has reduced him to a joke. Deadshot and Batman's big show off in the tunnels in the Enemy Below 1 and Batman get's taken out by a gas bomb???? Nuff said on the absolutely retarded writing this show has.
4. Plots!! R just plain awful. They could have retofitted old JLA wikth Dick Dillan artwork and had better non-cheesier storylines. In the GL ep which started out okay actually (as a black man--sorry but not only do I dig GL but I really dug the voice acting and hometown stroll of that 1st ep...one of the few cool and honest moments next to Aquamans' slashing of his hand in the entire season), this death of 3 billion was already establsihed. Then we get the cop out of a friggin illusion device. Why not actually have the planet in ruins and that it was really a ray the enemny's used to destroy it. That's non-lethal death for the kiddies...the point is made that people really died (since it's implied in the 1st episode--I mean, it doesn't make it any less devastating news now that we find out it wasn't his fault) and finally we prove how bad the vilains are. I say all this for one reason...why in sam hill of all sloppy writing would a illusion device insite a galaxy and no one NO ONE knows this planet is still in orbit, no one knows that people are still flying to and from work on that planet --leaving that planet and so on? Come on!
I could go on but why? the writing is butt.
Finally, the voices are simply wretched. This is perhaps my most personal gripe with Timm because while he didnt hire his ex buds Dini and Radomski and definitely his superiors at story construction...he did seem to approve hiring of ridiculous voice actors.
let's just go down the list:
Newburn: Supes is weak. This guy cannot act. lacks confidence.
Conroy: Simply put--he is as much to the success of Timm and Co as they are to him. Glad to know Timm still has some loyalty.
Eisenberg: Timm has loyalty to this chick...why? I don;t know. Another completely non-actor. Her voice is wrong. In a time where I agree with Timm's decision --diversity..more women and more ethnic variety..why not hire a sexier etnic greek voice? WW sounds like a bubble-headed cheerleader and not a goddess. Her emtional levels in Paradise Lost was just wrong and when we have eps of BB and Batman that featured more stunning acting in frigin guest roles this is unacceptable.
Hawkgirl: Excellent!! Why is her voice and character personalty not WW's?? A fan favortie by far.
Rosenbaum: Stick to playing Lex dude! This guy's Flash has the corniest lines period. Trying too hard to make him a repressed chick magnet. It grates everytime he speaks just cu I know he's going to say something stupid. Although if this were being written by Dini...Flash might be cool wth Rosenbuam's voice...there'd be some twist or dramatic staple for us to understand why he is the way he is.
Lamarr: GL--is excellent. I don't care for his lines that suggest he tells even Supes what to do....that is not right..Supes and Batman are the kings of this troop and no matter how cocky GL is--even he should convey to viewers that he knows that. Shave a hair of that cockiness off GL's lines and acting and give to Supes and who knows??
Lumly: MM--excellent. Simply the best voice actor next to Conroy and Lamarr
So, in all....this show sucks b/c it has really missed it's potential and has sold its' sold to make some executives rich or smart (hey Isigned the JL show aren't I smart--no moron...u r just typical of anyone riding someone's else's hard work) and to have Timm come across as more of a one-man army that he's not. Incidentally--the guy is an amazing artist--I love his worka ndhis JL designs--but even he has to wince when he sees the eps--they look horrible. I was looking at BB and it just looks so vibrant and mature and JL looks like an animated Don Heck drawing (if u know what I mean then smirk b/c that was not a compliment).
Anyways, I'm done...curious to read everyone's response to this.
1st, as a HUGE comic fan of some 20 yrs. and as a member of the entertainment community--I am pretty disappointed in Timm and this new JL. Why?? Simple, IT IS AMATUERISH. Not only is it amatuerish but it is a vanity project that is being stifled from it's full potential. I like Timm....I really do like TIMM. But....Jeesus man! He DID NOT bring in EMMY-award winning writers as producers??? Come on! Why would u not do that when u are working on the biggest project in the DC cannon? I think it comes down to vanity. Timm got a big head, some people at Cartoon Network and Warner Bros. Studios got together and decided for cost purposes be better to have 1 superstar rather than the team and possibly filled Timm's head full of nonses and there we go. Egotism run amok for a show that should have brought out the absolute best in producing and writing.
To call the show a success is both silly and simply incorrect. A success to whom? To 8 yr old kids who have never seen Superfriends....well that's great--I doubt Timm wants their respect or his and Dini's Batman and Superman cartoons would have been the ass that JL is now. No, these gentleman want respect and want to push animation and JL so clearly does not. It's got big ratings some of you will say--but big friggin deal! This ius Cartoon Network! What new show featuring iconic characters doesn't get good ratings. I mean, Planet of the Apes by Tim Burton was considered a failure cuz it was critically lampooned and turned fans off. But, boy it did make close to $200 mil--that in Hollywood is a success even though they may never make another one now because of how bad a taste it left in fans' mouths. So, this show is no success. The Batmans, Batman Beyond cartoons --now that was a success.....critical and demos wise. I mean Timm or anyone on hee like JL4ver using that as a crutch is like Rick Fox taking credit for the success of the Lakers...hey man...when u got Jackson, Kobe and Shaq--there is no way on Earth that thing is not going to be a success despite some moron's assertion that he is the brainchild of it.
The writing! Without a date--the absolutely worst part of the show. HANDS DOWN! In fact, this is some of the SLOPPIEST writing I have ever seen in a cartoon. Here are some classic moments from the season thus far:
1. Batman magically appearing after supposedly being killed without so much as an explanation from Martian Manhunter during the alien capture scene in Secret Origins. (I mean Timm went out of his way to discuss in some condescending way how Morrison's run was alil too out there for conversion into animation but I think even a ool could have adapted Morrison's superior 1st effort with the white martians and the incredible showdown between Batman and the aliens one heck of a 3 part season opener---if all of u JL supporters have never read it--then becfore defending Timm and co--go get it...u might see why those of us who are offended by this version care so much). Paraide Lost was horrid. A stone warrior or robot that protects a statue?? The property damage?? WW just leaving for Themyscria in the middle of an obvious emergency (the whole beginnig sequence we know the set-up but why wasn't this shown over the span of weeks and have WW realize it is affecting her place HELPING humans and like Supes says--go home and fix this and she do that over the span of time--this would have ben believable-would have spared us the infamous fire truck scene and would have been honest to her character---it's just sloppy)
2. Superman period! His dialogue is the worst I have ever heard.
"I don't know what that thing is but I must stop it" . I do not want to get into voices yet (that's down alil ways) but lemme say this...if Newburn could act or like one poster said if he conveyed the confidence of Tim Daly's Superman (why oh why did they not convince this guy to come back????) then some lines might not sound so flat or stupid, "No approach them like a King"; "It's what they call on my world a frame-up". Still bad dialogue aside (and I agree with same poster that some dialogue just is sloppy--Superman would have just gotten angry and flown off after being knocked by that alien in Secret Origins and not uttering that classic--don't know what that thing is but I msut stop it line) the WORST thing with Supes is his depowering. WTF????? Why is this happeneing? Does anyone think it is necessary? Morrison not only used it but expanded it --like when Supes literally groudned the Earth or fought angels. My god this is a travesty of the character and for what??? so that dorky Flash can look cooler around the kids to sell his figures?? Give me a break. I will say this many times...but the episode of the Justice League Unlimited in Batman Beyond is not only a superior portrayal of the Justice League but it is a superior portrayal of a team with an ultra-powered superman. R u honestly telling me we had to have weak supes for this???
3. Weak Batman!! What the heck??? Batman the reason Timm and co are even making money in this biz and Timm has reduced him to a joke. Deadshot and Batman's big show off in the tunnels in the Enemy Below 1 and Batman get's taken out by a gas bomb???? Nuff said on the absolutely retarded writing this show has.
4. Plots!! R just plain awful. They could have retofitted old JLA wikth Dick Dillan artwork and had better non-cheesier storylines. In the GL ep which started out okay actually (as a black man--sorry but not only do I dig GL but I really dug the voice acting and hometown stroll of that 1st ep...one of the few cool and honest moments next to Aquamans' slashing of his hand in the entire season), this death of 3 billion was already establsihed. Then we get the cop out of a friggin illusion device. Why not actually have the planet in ruins and that it was really a ray the enemny's used to destroy it. That's non-lethal death for the kiddies...the point is made that people really died (since it's implied in the 1st episode--I mean, it doesn't make it any less devastating news now that we find out it wasn't his fault) and finally we prove how bad the vilains are. I say all this for one reason...why in sam hill of all sloppy writing would a illusion device insite a galaxy and no one NO ONE knows this planet is still in orbit, no one knows that people are still flying to and from work on that planet --leaving that planet and so on? Come on!
I could go on but why? the writing is butt.
Finally, the voices are simply wretched. This is perhaps my most personal gripe with Timm because while he didnt hire his ex buds Dini and Radomski and definitely his superiors at story construction...he did seem to approve hiring of ridiculous voice actors.
let's just go down the list:
Newburn: Supes is weak. This guy cannot act. lacks confidence.
Conroy: Simply put--he is as much to the success of Timm and Co as they are to him. Glad to know Timm still has some loyalty.
Eisenberg: Timm has loyalty to this chick...why? I don;t know. Another completely non-actor. Her voice is wrong. In a time where I agree with Timm's decision --diversity..more women and more ethnic variety..why not hire a sexier etnic greek voice? WW sounds like a bubble-headed cheerleader and not a goddess. Her emtional levels in Paradise Lost was just wrong and when we have eps of BB and Batman that featured more stunning acting in frigin guest roles this is unacceptable.
Hawkgirl: Excellent!! Why is her voice and character personalty not WW's?? A fan favortie by far.
Rosenbaum: Stick to playing Lex dude! This guy's Flash has the corniest lines period. Trying too hard to make him a repressed chick magnet. It grates everytime he speaks just cu I know he's going to say something stupid. Although if this were being written by Dini...Flash might be cool wth Rosenbuam's voice...there'd be some twist or dramatic staple for us to understand why he is the way he is.
Lamarr: GL--is excellent. I don't care for his lines that suggest he tells even Supes what to do....that is not right..Supes and Batman are the kings of this troop and no matter how cocky GL is--even he should convey to viewers that he knows that. Shave a hair of that cockiness off GL's lines and acting and give to Supes and who knows??
Lumly: MM--excellent. Simply the best voice actor next to Conroy and Lamarr
So, in all....this show sucks b/c it has really missed it's potential and has sold its' sold to make some executives rich or smart (hey Isigned the JL show aren't I smart--no moron...u r just typical of anyone riding someone's else's hard work) and to have Timm come across as more of a one-man army that he's not. Incidentally--the guy is an amazing artist--I love his worka ndhis JL designs--but even he has to wince when he sees the eps--they look horrible. I was looking at BB and it just looks so vibrant and mature and JL looks like an animated Don Heck drawing (if u know what I mean then smirk b/c that was not a compliment).
Anyways, I'm done...curious to read everyone's response to this.