Justice League vs. Gargoyles

[gregstones]

I would be curious to hear which of the two shows people find to be more effectively done. In my opinion, Gargoyles did a much better job juggling its 8 main characters (6 gargoyles and two humans). Those characters were very well fleshed out, even within the first three episodes. The same can certainly not be said for Justice League. I think Gargoyles also benefited from having a strong lead character in Goliath, whereas Superman and Martian Manhunter aren't overly charismatic figures. Furthermore, Gargoyles had large story arcs with unexpected twists over time that eventually built into satisfying climaxes. Justice League essentially has non-descript villains of the week. A menace is more frightening if you know it won't necessarily be vanquished by the end of part 2, and that even if is defeated, it may eventually return. Finally, Gargoyles had the advantage of Disney television animation, which always looks amazingly good. (I was watching Buzz Lightyear of Star Command this morning, and was more than a little disheartened to see that its animation, coloration, and sense of character far surpasses Justice League. But that's another story...)

Thoughts?

[Terminatah]

Well, you're comparing a small series run with a show only a few episodes into its first season. I love both these shows, but if I had to pick a favorite?

In terms of show quality, I would have to say Gargoyles, no contest. A lot of Gargoyle fans are still awaiting the return of the show as well as the live action movie.

-Terminatah

[Clayface]

I'd have to go with Gargoyles on this one. Both shows are great, and I'm enjoyingJustice League a lot, but Gargoyles was a masterpiece. Excellent character development and overall story, and it was more effective in handling its multiple characters, IMO.

[gregstones]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Terminatah
[B]Well, you're comparing a small series run with a show only a few episodes into its first season.

I agree that Justice league is still relatively young, but there HAVE been eight half hours so far, and even within just its first season run of just 13 episodes, Gargoyles accomplished quite a bit in terms of character development and backstory.

Of course, Gargoyles had former BTAS talents like Frank Paur and Michael Reaves working for them. Gargoyles took a lot of what was good about BTAS and built upon it. Ironically, though, Justice League has abandoned almost everything that made BTAS and much of STAS great. Why not keep what works and build upon it? I know Bruce Timm likes to gives each show its own unique qualities, but he sacrifices a lot of good things when he starts with a fresh piece of paper every time.

By the way, where can I find out more about what may lie ahead for Gargoyles? I haven't heard anything about it in years.

[Web Head]

Even though they're both ensemble shows they're different kinds of ensemble shows. In Gargoyles they were all basically family. They lived together and patrolled together and all came from the same background (Middle Ages).

On Justice League you've got seven heores that pretty much only come together out of necesity. The've all got lives of their own and seperate backgrounds/motivations. There's going to inevitably be conflict between members, moreso than Gargoyles.

I really like the long season arcs (being Buffy fan), and would like to see them in JL, but the show is still young and we'll surely get something similar to Darkseid's role in STAS from some villians (Injustice Gang?)

[Tim Drake]

Gargoyles hands down. Btw Gregstones I agree with you that the color and lighting in JL isn't the greatest. I was thinking last night about why still images of JL look kinda blah. You're right there isn't enough contrast.

[Mr. Obsession]

At the moment, Gargoyles. But to be fair Gargoyles had a huge advantage over JL in that the main characters were new. JL, on the other hand, is a show that contains some of the oldest characters from the world of DC comics. They've got a lot of baggage and fan expectations to live up to.

I think Gargoyles also gets some extra credit from fans simply for being something that one would never expect from a company like Disney. Well I know it blew my mind that Disney produced it. Sadly I highly doubt that we'll see another series like Gargoyles from Disney again.

Personally I believe that once JL hits it's stride it will rival Gargoyles in all aspects, possibly even surpass it. When such a time comes both series can be judged on equal footing. But at the moment it's not really fair to compair the two.

[gregstones]

But at the moment it's not really fair to compair the two. [/B][/QUOTE]

You have a point, but how about this: compare just the first eight episodes of Gargoyles with the first eight episodes of Justice League. What is most important to consider is how the two shows have handled character development, as well as the group dynamic. Gargoyles came to the screen already well-defined and thoroughly thought out, whereas Justice League feels more like a work in progress to me. There are some definite bugs that need to be ironed out.

I just hope Justice League builds into something of more depth. I want a show that I really look forward to seeing each week, as was the case with Batman, Gargoyles, and Superman.

[Mr. Obsession]

When just comparing the first eight episodes of Gargoyles to the first eight of JL, then I agree with your points, mostly.

At any rate, JL does seem to be improving with each new episode. At least it's not getting worse.

[mbaker]

You have alot of good points. Gargoyles has more of a stong family bond, where as Justice Leauge is a group of heroes who have there own lives that come together out of necessity. Gargoyles was great in the begining, but lost some of it's edge in the end. I don't think Disney will ever produce another show like that any time soon. As for Justice Leauge, it's a great show so far, but I'd give it some time. If Bruce Timm can keep this up for the next five, or six years, iron out some of the bugs, and maybe bring back some old blood like Frank Paur, Michael Reaves, or Paul Dini, then it'll be a great show.

[gregstones]

Originally posted by mbaker
Gargoyles was great in the begining, but lost some of it's edge in the end.

If you're referring to that horrible Goliath Chronicles show that Disney put on Saturday mornings back in '96, I'm right with you. That series had a completely different producer, and reflected poorly on the previous series. I think Disney woke up one day and realized how intelligent the original Gargoyles was, so they stepped in and dumbed it down for kids. Very unfortunate.

Justice League is definitely better than The Goliath Chronicles.

[Terminatah]

Gargoyles co-creator Greg Weisman doesn't consider the Goliath Chronicles episodes canon. He has been waiting for the day when he can bring back the Gargoyles show and he has many ideas for the future. He even likes including little hidden Gargoyle references in the other shows he works in. There is a convention every year for Gargoyles fans called The Gathering, where he and others involved with the show get to interact with the fans. The best way to support the show's comeback is to attend these Gatherings.

There was also talk of a live-action movie, but Greg hasn't heard anything beyond the fact that it was in script stage a while ago.

Here is a good place to learn more: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/

-Terminatah

[G. Wen]

I think Gargoyles is a better series because the stories have more depth.
In "Awakening", we discover the origins of the Gargoyles, their relationships w/ humans, their relationship w/ Xanatos, their individual characteristics, their reactions to certain situations, and the driving forces of these relations.
In "Secret Origins", we discover MM's origin and we get to see the JL battle the goo aliens.
Gargoyles just appears to have a more thought out plot.

[mbaker]

Good Point. Gargoyles had a story that tlod everyone's origin right away. In Justice Leauge, we learn about J'onn J'onzz while Superman, and Batman's origin has already been established in their own shows, and we have yet to learn more about the other characters. I'd be nice to see more of the team members out of costum once in a while. (I.E. Clark Kent, Burce Wayne, ect.) We've seen John Stewart out of costum in "Blackets Night part 1", and we see Clark Kent in the "Secret Origins" pilot. I have a question. Asuming that the Flash we've got here is Wally West, didn't he have a latino girlfriend? In the show, he's got the hots for both Wonder Woman, and Hawkgirl. Just wanted to know.

[Domino]

Gargoyles consisted of all-new characters, while Justice League has characters with 60+ years of history for fans to pick apart. I think it's definitely apples and oranges.

[GL2k2]

I think Gargoyles is the better series of the two, hands down. They even had, at one point a Star Trek:TNG reunion, not to mention Capt. Janeway. Practically everyone but the doctors and Wesley Crusher has been on the show as a voice. But that's irrelevant.

My biggest problem with JL is the damn animation. It just looks terrible. All the WB animation looks terrible, that damn computer effects background is disgusting. As for plot, I'll give them another season to fix those things, but Batman & Superman were superior to Justice League with story telling thus far.

[The Green Hornet]

Greg has a vision for Gargoyles that spanned years-- he knew exactly where he wanted to go the whole time-- over the years as things got more complex the show became more brilliant as his vision was show

as for JL, well its a great show but its still new and hasnt had time to lay out these plots that span YEARS (as gargs did)

[Mad Monkey 7]

I think that Gargoyles still airs on Toon Disney.

[Karkull]

Keep in mind that the shows are designed differently. Justice League tells their stories individually in two or three-part story arcs and continuity is kept loose. Gargoyles, however, was really just one large story whose continuity was airtight. You can't accurately compare the two--you can only go with which kind of story telling you prefer.

[gregstones]

Originally posted by Karkull
Keep in mind that the shows are designed differently. Justice League tells their stories individually in two or three-part story arcs and continuity is kept loose. Gargoyles, however, was really just one large story whose continuity was airtight. You can't accurately compare the two--you can only go with which kind of story telling you prefer.

Stories aside, the two shows can be compared on the grounds of how they handle group interaction and character development. Gargoyles established strong, individual personalities right from the start. You also clearly saw how one gargoyle related to the next. Justice League has spent more time staging epic battles than letting us get to know the characters, which has effectively kept me from caring what happens to whom. It is also quite obvious to me that Gargoyles had a lot more development time before it hit the air. Everything about Justice League feels a little rushed.

I'm sure it will improve over time, though. (Batman Beyond didn't improve over time, but I'm optimistic nonetheless.)

[gregstones]

To back up my above point, here is an e-mail concerning the Gargoyles pilot "Awakenings" which I got from Greg Weisman's Gargoyle website. (He posted this file himself.):

To: Eric Luke [Gargoyles writer]
Date: 6-10-93
From: Greg Weisman [Gargoyles producer]
Subject: Notes on 6/3 GARGOYLE Outline

Hi, Eric. Big improvement. I've collated a bunch of specific page notes, and I apologize in advance for their length. But we are getting so close, we wanted to make sure everything's nailed dead-to-rights. As before, we're largely concerned that everything tracks logically and that we've fully explored the relationships between our leads....


Key phrase: "fully explored the relationships between our leads"

Justice League has yet to do this in 8 episodes. Gargoyles did it it in five.

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by mbaker
I don't think Disney will ever produce another show like that any time soon.

I think that this is completely correct. Actually Disney was planning on a Team Atlantis cartoon that would have followed the characters from Atlantis on some further expeditions. A lot of people were considering this toon the next Gargoyles in terms of storytelling and quality. Unfortunately Disney axed this idea before it ever got off the ground (guess they found it more important to make Sleeping Beauty 408: The Search for Ideas). If you really need Disney animation though try Legend of Tarzan on UPN, it's no Gargoyles but it's fairly decent (be better if they ever kill off Turk).

As for JL, I love the show and look forward to it every week - I guess I really don't have any major complaints about the show (cept to bring in Aztek!) and actually enjoy it, then again I loved Batman Beyond, Zeta Project and Static Shock so.....

-Joe!

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Domino
Gargoyles consisted of all-new characters, while Justice League has characters with 60+ years of history for fans to pick apart. I think it's definitely apples and oranges.

I don't agree. The fact that there's years of history on the JL characters should have made it easier to put together good character interaction. The characters and their motives are pretty well known by the creators at that point because they have the years of history to draw from (except the new characters of course). I would think it would be much harder to come up with such good character development and interaction for a bunch of characters that are new (Gargoyles) than it would for characters that have been in existence for many years (JL).

[Domino]

Originally posted by Clayface


I don't agree. The fact that there's years of history on the JL characters should have made it easier to put together good character interaction. The characters and their motives are pretty well known by the creators at that point because they have the years of history to draw from (except the new characters of course). I would think it would be much harder to come up with such good character development and interaction for a bunch of characters that are new (Gargoyles) than it would for characters that have been in existence for many years (JL).


I guess my point was that from the perspective of criticism, it's easier to knock JL because everyone has their own idea of what those characters should and should not do. In Gargoyles, who was going to step up and say, "Goliath would never act like that," or "since when can gargoyles only glide and not fly?" But I see your point too.