Joe Quesada ruined Marvel

[BackLash]

I'm a huge X-Men fan, and over the past year I am appalled by what he did to the series with the House of M. Despite it being a comic book, I always saw a degree of realism in Marvel's comics, the mutant struggle was to the Marvel universe, than what the civil rights movement was in real life. The mutant charaters dealt with segurgation and hatred from those who were not mutants. And ones asscociated with mutants (various normal girlfriends of X-Men, Greydon Creed) were ridiculed. That's how life was and still sometimes is.

When Quesada depowed all but 198 of those said mutants, that was like a slap in the face of fans of the X-Men's struggle for a long time. In real life you cannot massivly decolor all but 198 blacks, asians and latinos in the world just so you can convently keep track of the people in the world w/o color, why should he get away with doing that that to mutants? Plus how rediculous is it for Blob to loose his prowers? What about Jubilee?

Don't even get me started on the Civil War.

Thougts?

[spidl]

I maybe wrong, but I think the 198 figure is only the number of mutants around the X-mansion. There are more out of the mansion who still have their power. Although I agree I think the idea is stupid and lazy editing. If you think there are too many mutants than tell your writers not to make any more and use the ones you already have.

[Wonderwall]

Joe is hit and miss. He makes controversial decisions but isnt he one of the guys responsible for getting Marvel out of the huge slump that was the 90s?

[Shawn Hopkins]

I maybe wrong, but I think the 198 figure is only the number of mutants around the X-mansion. There are more out of the mansion who still have their power. Although I agree I think the idea is stupid and lazy editing. If you think there are too many mutants than tell your writers not to make any more and use the ones you already have.

You're wrong, but I forgive you. There were 198 identified mutants in the world, but some were repowered and there were a few that were not identified for whatever reason.

[ifthismeansevos]

I'm a huge X-Men fan, and over the past year I am appaled(sp) by what he did to the series with the House of M. Despite it being a comic book, I always saw a degree of realism in Marvel's comics, the mutant struggle was to the Marvel universe, than what the civil rights movement was in real life. The mutant charaters dealt with segurgation and hatred from those who were not mutants. And ones asscociated with mutants (various normal girlfriends of X-Men, Greydon Creed) were ridiculed. That's how life was and still sometimes is.

When Quesada depowed all but 198 of those said mutants, that was like a slap in the face of fans of the X-Men's struggle for a long time. In real life you cannot massivly decolor all but 198 blacks, asians and latinos in the world just so you can convently keep track of the people in the world w/o color, why should he get away with doing that that to mutants? Plus how rediculus(sp) is it for Blob to loose his prowers? What about Jubilee?

Don't even get me started on the Civil War.

Thougts?
Don't you dare to start with the Civil War

[Icer]

House of M sucked, the reprecussions suck too. Mutants in general havent had any good story lines in awhile.

[Sage Shinigami]

House of M sucked, the reprecussions suck too. Mutants in general havent had any good story lines in awhile.

I was rather fond of Morrison's New X-Men....even though no one else is.

And yes, the fat man ruined Marvel. Well, him and Bendis. Disassembled and the crap that came after it are just plain uninteresting. Spider-Man, Wolverine, Luke Cage? This sounds like a fanfic, not the world's greatest hero team.

And House of M and Civil War....:sad: <--- That's my reply, right there. Oh well. I always liked DC better anyway, and right now they are totally OWNING Marvel. (Sorry Marvel fans.)

[Icer]

I'm in agreement with you, the last time I was really interested in the X-Men stories was when Morrison was writing. Although his saga is maligned by fans and retconned to death by Marvel

[Clayface]

I was a big fan of Morrison's X-Men run as well. I kind of liked "House of M" - the main mini-series was interesting, and I just stayed away from all the tie-ins. I particularly like the X-Factor series that spun out of it - it is, IMO, one of the best, if not the best book Marvel is putting out right now. "Civil War" doesn't interest me in the slightest, so I've avoided it completely.

That said, I'm not sure it's fair or accurate to say "Quesada ruined Marvel". He may have ruined what you like about Marvel, but Marvel itself is doing just fine, and it's books are still selling like crazy.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Queseda has done a lot of good stuff with Marvel.

Yeah, Disassembled sucked. And so does 198 Mutants in the world(I give that 2 more years, max).

But Civil War has been amazing, and Marvel in general is doing really well right now. I find myself reading more and more books each month.

[krazymed]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time understanding how Quesada ruined Marvel when it's making more money now than it ever did. I'm more likely to believe he (along with Avi Arad) saved Marvel after they filed for bankrupcy years ago.

And comic books are always hit or miss. Either the fans like it or hate it. They just happen to both be very loud about it.

[Stu]

I am worried that Quesada seems to have no sense of self control - the number of times he has come out with shock moments and changed the status quo for no reason is worrying. Look at the mess The Avengers Dissambled arc was, all shock, no substance. The fact The New Avengers book hasn't really been very good doesn't help matters.

It is worrying how a lot of characters are being written out of character so badly and stupidly implausible situations seem to keep happening. Spider-Man Unmasking publically? Hello, are you forgetting what happened to your last girlfriend the last time some supervillain found out who you are? Not to mention the fact that Spider-Man's everyman appeal is now out the window and the fact the character is at his best when he was hiding his secret identity from everyone.

Iron Man's role in Cival War has been downright terrible. The series would be a lot better if each side of the argument was presented equally but lately, Iron Man has just become a supervillain, and if Reed were being written correctly, you know he'd put his marriage before any law. The fact he let Ben walk out without even trying to persuade him to stay shows how much they've dropped the ball with Mr. Fantastic.

It's pretty much the same with The Green Goblin and him becoming the leader of The New Thunderbolts. The goverment hates Norman Osborn, and how the hell are supposed to believe people like Bullseye and Venom are going to form a team of superheroes? The whole situation is pretty much BS, but as long as the sales are good, Quesada doesn't seem to care, which means we'll end up with the 90's all over again.

[Sage Shinigami]

I am worried that Quesada seems to have no sense of self control - the number of times he has come out with shock moments and changed the status quo for no reason is worrying. Look at the mess The Avengers Dissambled arc was, all shock, no substance. The fact The New Avengers book hasn't really been very good doesn't help matters.


True. So very true. Speaking of The New Avengers/Avengers:D...I recall a few years back while Chuck Austen was doing his (pretty terrible) run, a fellow comic fan said that Bendis' latest stories were totally insane (in a bad way) and he dreaded what he was going to do to the Avengers. I said, having only read his somewhat decent Ultimate Spider-Man that I didn't care what happened as long as Chuck Austen was off the book. :sad: My thoughts since then have obviously changed. Austen, though able to get a run in on both the Avengers AND the JLA, definitely did not have the clout to ruin Avengers like Bendis did.



It is worrying how a lot of characters are being written out of character so badly and stupidly implausible situations seem to keep happening. Spider-Man Unmasking publically? Hello, are you forgetting what happened to your last girlfriend the last time some supervillain found out who you are? Not to mention the fact that Spider-Man's everyman appeal is now out the window and the fact the character is at his best when he was hiding his secret identity from everyone.


Well, I'm pretty sure Quesada has said somewhere that people like Spider-Man better when he isn't married. As far as hiding his identity...that's not really as big a deal as it used to be, though it probably should be.



Iron Man's role in Cival War has been downright terrible. The series would be a lot better if each side of the argument was presented equally


Heh. Reminding me of when Millar was like, "There is no right side in this argument". Its laughable because Peter David showed who was right with like, two issues of X-Factor....or maybe even less. Plus this whole thing was done in the DCU with HUAC decades ago.



but lately, Iron Man has just become a supervillain, and if Reed were being written correctly, you know he'd put his marriage before any law.


But they aren't writing anyone in character. They're just trying to find people to put on the "wrong" side. As often as Tony has dealt with needing "special clearance" to be a superhero, he should know the dangers of being (essentially) a government puppet.



The whole situation is pretty much BS, but as long as the sales are good, Quesada doesn't seem to care, which means we'll end up with the 90's all over again.

Which I guess might not be so bad if we got another good Avengers run and another good Iron Man run out of it like we did after the Onslaught/Heroes Reborn crap was over. :)

[J'onn J'onzz]

I'm a huge X-Men fan, and over the past year I am appaled(sp) by what he did to the series with the House of M. Despite it being a comic book, I always saw a degree of realism in Marvel's comics, the mutant struggle was to the Marvel universe, than what the civil rights movement was in real life. The mutant charaters dealt with segurgation and hatred from those who were not mutants. And ones asscociated with mutants (various normal girlfriends of X-Men, Greydon Creed) were ridiculed. That's how life was and still sometimes is.

When Quesada depowed all but 198 of those said mutants, that was like a slap in the face of fans of the X-Men's struggle for a long time. In real life you cannot massivly decolor all but 198 blacks, asians and latinos in the world just so you can convently keep track of the people in the world w/o color, why should he get away with doing that that to mutants? Plus how rediculus(sp) is it for Blob to loose his prowers? What about Jubilee?

Don't even get me started on the Civil War.

Thougts?

Appalled

Rediculous

[BackLash]

Appalled

Rediculous

Thanx, the top post will be fixed

[Sage Shinigami]

I think he was just correcting the two words you spelled wrong, for whatever reason, though I don't think ridiculous has any e's in it. (But a dictionary COULD prove me wrong.)

[BackLash]

I think he was just correcting the two words you spelled wrong, for whatever reason, though I don't think ridiculous has any e's in it. (But a dictionary COULD prove me wrong.)

Thanks for the heads up,

Anyway, can someone name one good thing that came out of Depowering all of the mutants in the world but 198, or killing some of those said depowored mutants. Or how about revealing your secret identity to the public because the goverment tells you to, putting all your loved ones in danger. Or how about killing off The Vision, why do that? Also why was the Scarlett Witch used as the MacGuffin to lauch the Dissasembled and House of M storylines? They totally ruined the character's life.

More importantly how hypacritical is it when Queseda said that none of the the mutants that were depowered would get their powers back and that he would not try to do character resurections when both had already happend (Quicksilver getting his poers back and Jean Greay being resurected (again)).

[Ed Liu]

I think he was just correcting the two words you spelled wrong, for whatever reason, though I don't think ridiculous has any e's in it. (But a dictionary COULD prove me wrong.)

It doesn't. To make a spelling mistake while correcting a spelling mistake is, frankly, somewhat ridiculous :p :).

-- Ed

[JLU Dude]

I have to agree with the others here that Quesada has runied Marvel. Early into his tenure was all right, but now, he's undoing it and everyone before him's work. At this point, he's destroying the Marvel Universe we all know & love and replacing it with a mockery. Heck, outside of Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, a couple issues of Mike Carey's X-Men run, and a New X-Men TPB, the only Marvel stuff is getting are back issues.:sad: I'm sorry, but Quesada's gotta go and Avengers Disassembled, House of M, Civil War and ALL changes connected to them get retconned out.:mad:

[RAINMAN]

I really don`t say how marvel of today is better then marvel of the 90`s? i really don`t find 90`s marvel as bad like most fans say it is. Sure it not perfect but what decade is perfect? So many say Joe Q is the reason why marvel is rolling in the big green, Personly I thougth the LA movies were a big part of that. OR it could be that writers were coming up whit good stories in along time? Maybe Joe Q deserve some credit but not all of it.

[Clayface]

Anyway, can someone name one good thing that came out of Depowering all of the mutants in the world but 198,

I already did above: X-Factor. :p


Or how about killing off The Vision, why do that?

Because it's "shocking" and causes contorversy, and, like it or not, controversy sells. You can complain all you want about Quesada allowing terrible things to happen to your favorite characters, but in the end, he's looking at the sales numbers. And the sales numbers say that what he's been doing works. The only way you (or anyone) is going to get a change in the way Marvel handles it's characters is to speak with your money. Don't buy it if you don't like it.


More importantly how hypacritical is it when Queseda said that none of the the mutants that were depowered would get their powers back and that he would not try to do character resurections when both had already happend (Quicksilver getting his poers back and Jean Greay being resurected (again)).

That's been going on in comic books since comic books existed. Anyone that seriously believed that any of these changes would stick in the long run doesn't know their history. I'm not saying its a good thing, but going back on changes made is not in any new to Marvel as a company, or to the comics industry in general. If that's "ruined" Marvel, then Marvel's been "ruined" for a long time before Quesada ever came along.

[ManicWebb]

The only way you (or anyone) is going to get a change in the way Marvel handles it's characters is to speak with your money. Don't buy it if you don't like it.
You can just save your breath right there. I've been saying that ever since I got back into comics a couple years ago, and some fans are just too hard-headed to get it. If I had a dime for every person who complained about Brian Michael Bendis' writing as they continued to buy his comics, I'd have as much money as... well, Brian Michael Bendis.

[ifthismeansevos]

I already did above: X-Factor. :p



Because it's "shocking" and causes contorversy, and, like it or not, controversy sells. You can complain all you want about Quesada allowing terrible things to happen to your favorite characters, but in the end, he's looking at the sales numbers. And the sales numbers say that what he's been doing works. The only way you (or anyone) is going to get a change in the way Marvel handles it's characters is to speak with your money. Don't buy it if you don't like it.



That's been going on in comic books since comic books existed. Anyone that seriously believed that any of these changes would stick in the long run doesn't know their history. I'm not saying its a good thing, but going back on changes made is not in any new to Marvel as a company, or to the comics industry in general. If that's "ruined" Marvel, then Marvel's been "ruined" for a long time before Quesada ever came along.

You have it right with X factor! That's a great series.
New X-men is not bad either (I don't love the last arc but it's not bad.)
Yeah if all the people dislike the changes then stop buying the comics.
And you can't keep Jean Grey dead she's just too powerful it's not Q fault he can't stop her noone can!:D
Yeah spidey is oput of character.
But hell you can have a superfitial look and enjoy the art.
You can see the good turned evil plot in Civil War.
And we can all show our gratitude to Peter David for xcellent comics.

[Sage Shinigami]

The only way you (or anyone) is going to get a change in the way Marvel handles it's characters is to speak with your money. Don't buy it if you don't like it.

Why would you get something you don't like? I don't need to read New Avengers to know it sucks. The CONCEPT sucked and the way they got TO the concept (Avengers: D) sucked so the comic can't help but suck. Like I said earlier, Bendis has been demoted from comic book writer to glorified fanfiction writer who gets Marvel to pay an artist to do commisions for him. Currently I'm reading:

Iron Man (which for some reason so far, is untouched by Civil War but is starting to suck so I may have to drop it)
X-Factor (still golden, but then again Peter David is awesome)
Squadron Supreme (which is getting a little dark for my tastes so I may drop that soon too)
Captain America ('cause Brubaker = Pwn)
Uncanny X-Men (see previous reason)

I think that's it. Meanwhile I'm reading pretty much EVERYTHING DC puts out because I think their stuff is still good.

[Clayface]

Why would you get something you don't like?

You'd be amazed - there are a lot of people that will continue to buy a book even if they think it's bad, for whatever reason: a sense of loyalty to a character character/team/title, completism, a sense that they'll be "missing something important" if they don't, etc. Just look at the old threads leading up to the various big events of the past few years - you'll find all sorts of examples of people complaining about how they hate huge cross-over events, but then stating they'll buy it anyway so they can keep up with what's going on with their favorites characters, or so they don't miss something important.


I don't need to read New Avengers to know it sucks. The CONCEPT sucked and the way they got TO the concept (Avengers: D) sucked so the comic can't help but suck.

Personally, I don't subscribe to that theory. I don't knock a book unless I read it first. Everyone is certainly entitled to thier own opinion, but unless someone is reading the title they're talking about, I don't put any stock in that person's opinion.

[Sage Shinigami]

Personally, I don't subscribe to that theory. I don't knock a book unless I read it first. Everyone is certainly entitled to thier own opinion, but unless someone is reading the title they're talking about, I don't put any stock in that person's opinion.

*coughs* Maybe this is why people still read books they don't like? :) So people will listen to them. Honestly I could care less, but I'll say that I DID read Avengers: Disassembled. It never got better so why should I read New Avengers? Its still got Bendis writing it, just with a new title and different art. (And considerably less cool characters, with Luke Cage, Wolverine, and Spider-Man on the team and Vision, She-Hulk, Hawkeye, and Ant-Man either gone or dead.)

[Clayface]

*coughs* Maybe this is why people still read books
they don't like? :) So people will listen to them.

Certainly another possibility. Though you can read a book without purchasing it, assuming you have a friendly enough comic shop in the area. The one I frequent has no problem with letting me read an issue in the store before deciding whether or not to purchase it.


Honestly I could care less, but I'll say that I DID read Avengers: Disassembled. It never got better so why should I read New Avengers? Its still got Bendis writing it, just with a new title and different art.

Well, I'd say there's a difference between saying "I don't want to read New Avengers because I don't care for the writer" (a perfectly valid thing to do and say, IMO) and saying "New Avengers sucks" without ever having reading the book. The first statement is a valid opinion based on your experiences, the second is an uninformed guess at best. Every writer has their good and bad days. For example, I think Jeph Loeb has written some absolutely brilliant stuff, and some absolute crap. I don't think it's fair to say "everything he writes from now on will be bad" just because he's had some clunkers, but I may avoid his stuff in the future because I don't want to take the chance.


(And considerably less cool characters, with Luke Cage, Wolverine, and Spider-Man on the team and Vision, She-Hulk, Hawkeye, and Ant-Man either gone or dead.)

I think all of these characters have the potential to be (and are) equally cool - it all depends on what the writer does with them.

Anyway, I guess we're kind of getting off track here. Back to the subject at hand: I'm still waiting for someone to give me a good argument that validates the statement "Joe Quesada has ruined Marvel". :)

[Sage Shinigami]

Certainly another possibility. Though you can read a book without purchasing it, assuming you have a friendly enough comic shop in the area. The one I frequent has no problem with letting me read an issue in the store before deciding whether or not to purchase it.


And there are always other ways, I suppose...



Well, I'd say there's a difference between saying "I don't want to read New Avengers because I don't care for the writer" (a perfectly valid thing to do and say, IMO) and saying "New Avengers sucks" without ever having reading the book. The first statement is a valid opinion based on your experiences, the second is an uninformed guess at best. Every writer has their good and bad days. For example, I think Jeph Loeb has written some absolutely brilliant stuff, and some absolute crap. I don't think it's fair to say "everything he writes from now on will be bad" just because he's had some clunkers, but I may avoid his stuff in the future because I don't want to take the chance.


Goes back to that thing I said about the concept sucking, but okay, I really DON'T care for the writer anymore. I never had any great respect for him (certainly not like I do for Geoff Johns or Kurt Busiek, two of the guys that did runs before him) but Avengers: D sort of killed it all.




Anyway, I guess we're kind of getting off track here. Back to the subject at hand: I'm still waiting for someone to give me a good argument that validates the statement "Joe Quesada has ruined Marvel". :)

I guess to you, he hasn't. For me, by letting all of this nonsense happen, he's made Marvel unfun to read and thus ruined it. :)

[Clayface]

I guess to you, he hasn't. For me, by letting all of this nonsense happen, he's made Marvel unfun to read and thus ruined it. :)

Yep, I understand where you're coming from. Though, interestingly enough, I personally found most of Marvel's stuff unfun and uninteresting before Quesada came along, and have only recently (in the past few years) found anything from Marvel that drew me back into buying comics from them once again. In some ways, I could credit Quesada for making Marvel better for me - he has allowed enough shake-up in the status quo there to make things interesting for me again. Though I'm loathe to say so, since on a personal level I can't stand the guy.

But that all brings us full circle back to what I was saying in my first post in this thread. My original intention was to point out that I think the statement "Joe Quesdada has ruined Marvel" is too general and vague of a statement. It can be read as "Joe Quesada has ruined my enjoyment of Marvel characters/titles" (a certainly valid opinion that anyone can hold, though it can be argued that he hasn't done anything that hasn't already been done in the industry in the past) or it can be read "Joe Quesada has ruined the company/business of Marvel Comics", which is a statement that I don't think holds any water, and can very easily be argued against.

[Hanshotfirst113]

it's books are still selling like crazy.

Money does not indicate quality. Not to say that I feel that Quesada ruined Marvel (I have absolutely no knowledge of their recent workings, and make no claims whatsoever), but making money has no bearing on a quality work of art.

[Sage Shinigami]

Yep, I understand where you're coming from. Though, interestingly enough, I personally found most of Marvel's stuff unfun and uninteresting before Quesada came along, and have only recently (in the past few years) found anything from Marvel that drew me back into buying comics from them once again. In some ways, I could credit Quesada for making Marvel better for me - he has allowed enough shake-up in the status quo there to make things interesting for me again. Though I'm loathe to say so, since on a personal level I can't stand the guy.

Well its not like I read that many Marvel comics before. I did read the Ultimate universe before it got "played out", as they used to say, as well as Morrison's X-Men which stopped not too long before everything went "stupid", and I've been following the Squadron Supreme universe since JMS started it. Was also following Iron Man and Avengers. Really the only change I guess is that I was forced to drop Avengers, something I hated doing since I loved that comic when I was younger.




But that all brings us full circle back to what I was saying in my first post in this thread. My original intention was to point out that I think the statement "Joe Quesdada has ruined Marvel" is too general and vague of a statement. It can be read as "Joe Quesada has ruined my enjoyment of Marvel characters/titles" (a certainly valid opinion that anyone can hold, though it can be argued that he hasn't done anything that hasn't already been done in the industry in the past) or it can be read "Joe Quesada has ruined the company/business of Marvel Comics", which is a statement that I don't think holds any water, and can very easily be argued against.

I think you're just being overly literal. :)

[Clayface]

Money does not indicate quality. Not to say that I feel that Quesada ruined Marvel (I have absolutely no knowledge of their recent workings, and make no claims whatsoever), but making money has no bearing on a quality work of art.

Very true. But making money is one indicator of whether a business is successful or not. So if we're talking about whether or not Marvel is "ruined" as a business, then the fact that they're making lots of money would be an indicator that it's not indeed ruined.


I think you're just being overly literal. :)

Hehehe. I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit, and trying to get people to think about what they're saying, and expand on their opinions. Threads get very uninteresting (and die) very quickly once people start saying things like "yeah, ______ sucks now" as the entirety of their response. That really doesn't foster much discussion.

[Wonderwall]

Money does not indicate quality. Not to say that I feel that Quesada ruined Marvel (I have absolutely no knowledge of their recent workings, and make no claims whatsoever), but making money has no bearing on a quality work of art.

True but Marvel's quality was just as bad before Joey Q showed up. In fact it was even worse, and the numbers reflected that. I think that Some stuff of Marvel is still quality but definetly not the amount that is expected.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I don't think Joe Q has ruined Marvel at all, at least not with one bad storyline. I'll admit House of M was a dreadful and dull alternate world storyline, and the only good thing that came of it was giving Wolverine his memories back. So there are only about 198 mutants? How many of the depowered ones are worth talking about except for Blob and Jubilee? They're mostly Morlocks and other losers I thought were already dead. And if you think it's permanent, I bet you cried when Hawkeye died, too.

And Marvel books got better, not worse, overall when Joe Q took over. He was able to do away with some of the disgusting cronyism that had Howard Mackie writing Spiderman and Tom Defalco on Fantastic Four and use some of DC's big guns, like Morrison, Ennis, Ellis and Millar, on major projects. Sure, we got Ron Zimmerman for a while in return, but everything in life is a tradeoff.

Spider-Man got better during Joe Q's term. BKV started Runaways. Dan Slott became better used and appreciated. Punisher got his balls back. Wolverine got better and is finally getting good with Origins. We got Marvel Knights, Marvel MAX and the Ultimate Universe. We got more reliable trades and more hardback books.

What did Bob Harras give us? There were good books during his term like Busiek Avengers and Mark Waid on Captain America, but we also had The Clone Saga, X-Crossovers, Heroes Reborn, Spiderman: Chapter One, and new number ones for almost every book.

Finally, your main beef seems to be with the New Avengers. I personally have read every issue of New Avengers and enjoyed most of them. I've also been reading the Avengers for about 20 years, off and on, as one of the core Marvel books. And I have to tell you that except for a few Busiek related bright spots, the Avengers have been dull for years and seriously in need of something. I hated Disassembled, too, but at least it shook up the status quo for a while. Things are going pretty much back to normal after Civil War, when we'll get a traditonal Avengers book again with the Mighty Avengers.

[Sage Shinigami]

I don't think Joe Q has ruined Marvel at all, at least not with one bad storyline. I'll admit House of M was a dreadful and dull alternate world storyline, and the only good thing that came of it was giving Wolverine his memories back. So there are only about 198 mutants? How many of the depowered ones are worth talking about except for Blob and Jubilee? They're mostly Morlocks and other losers I thought were already dead. And if you think it's permanent, I bet you cried when Hawkeye died, too.


No, but I did want to beat Bendis over the head with a hardcover of one of his books.



And Marvel books got better, not worse, overall when Joe Q took over. He was able to do away with some of the disgusting cronyism that had Howard Mackie writing Spiderman and Tom Defalco on Fantastic Four and use some of DC's big guns, like Morrison, Ennis, Ellis and Millar, on major projects. Sure, we got Ron Zimmerman for a while in return, but everything in life is a tradeoff.

Spider-Man got better during Joe Q's term. BKV started Runaways. Dan Slott became better used and appreciated. Punisher got his balls back. Wolverine got better and is finally getting good with Origins. We got Marvel Knights, Marvel MAX and the Ultimate Universe. We got more reliable trades and more hardback books.

What did Bob Harras give us? There were good books during his term like Busiek Avengers and Mark Waid on Captain America, but we also had The Clone Saga, X-Crossovers, Heroes Reborn, Spiderman: Chapter One, and new number ones for almost every book.


Didn't Jemas (I think that's his name) do some/most of that stuff?



Finally, your main beef seems to be with the New Avengers. I personally have read every issue of New Avengers and enjoyed most of them. I've also been reading the Avengers for about 20 years, off and on, as one of the core Marvel books. And I have to tell you that except for a few Busiek related bright spots, the Avengers have been dull for years and seriously in need of something. I hated Disassembled, too, but at least it shook up the status quo for a while. Things are going pretty much back to normal after Civil War, when we'll get a traditonal Avengers book again with the Mighty Avengers.

A team without Cap and IM isn't the Avengers. Plus...pro-registration members? Ugh. Someone call me when the team has real heroes on it (meaning they have to get rid of the clone Stark that's been running around during Civil War and bring the real one out of hiding) and not just super-cops.

[Shawn Hopkins]

No, but I did want to beat Bendis over the head with a hardcover of one of his books.



Didn't Jemas (I think that's his name) do some/most of that stuff?



A team without Cap and IM isn't the Avengers. Plus...pro-registration members? Ugh. Someone call me when the team has real heroes on it (meaning they have to get rid of the clone Stark that's been running around during Civil War and bring the real one out of hiding) and not just super-cops.

Jemas had the big ideas early on, but he was president, Joe Q was still editor in chief and responsible for the editorial content of the line. Based on some of Jemas "creative" output, such as Marvell, I think we can safely say Joe Q had a large part in the good things.

Mighty Avengers will have an Iron Man. Won't necessarily be Stark, though. Captain America will be in Secret Avengers as far as I know.

[Somejerk]

Nobody has brought up Alpha Flight's death?

The single biggest blow to Canadian superheroism EVER!

Truthfully I was a Marvel kid in the late 80's early 90's, I was even brought back shortly for heroes reborn, which in retrospect was a mistake becuase it soured me on comics for years afterwards.

If the internet had exsisted (the way it does now) then people would have been up in arms about Eric Materson Thor, Non-Thing Ben Grimm, Black Suit Spidey, Killing Storm, Captian America as The Captian and John Walker as Captian America and many more changes that in the long run were temporary. I'm sure people discussed this type of thing saying "Man what was Marvel thinking? Its all Ruined now that The Hulk has Bruce Banner's mind!!"

[Sage Shinigami]

Jemas had the big ideas early on, but he was president, Joe Q was still editor in chief and responsible for the editorial content of the line. Based on some of Jemas "creative" output, such as Marvell, I think we can safely say Joe Q had a large part in the good things.

Mighty Avengers will have an Iron Man. Won't necessarily be Stark, though. Captain America will be in Secret Avengers as far as I know.

Ugh. "It could be anyone behind the mask"....just like they kept telling us the new Flash wouldn't necessarily be Bart. :shrug: What other pro-registration person could they get?

[Ed Liu]

On balance, I have to say that Joe Q doesn't do much for me as a person, but he's far from being the complete negative influence on Marvel that was suggested. I can't say that I care for much of the giant mega-crossover stuff that's dominating the Marvel lineup right now, nor do I care much for many of the creators selected by the Powers That Be to shepherd some of our favorite superheroes currently. But all things must pass, and the fact that I don't like Marvel means I can go wander around and find something else that gives me the same charge that Spider-Man and the X-Men used to.

On the plus side, Joe Q has also overseen some real quality work out of Marvel. The careers of Dan Slott and Brian K. Vaughan both happened under Joe Q's regime, despite the fact that neither sells even half as many comics as the bigger name-brand creators. Both Slott's She-Hulk and Vaughan's Runaways got second chances at life, when it would have been just as easy to shut them down entirely due to low sales.

If I have an issue with Joe Q, it's that I can't take anything he says publicly seriously any more because he's constantly revising history (I mean real-world history, not continuity ;)), artfully dodges questions that have even the slightest hint of difficulty, and happily deflects responsibility when it suits him to do so. He can contradict himself within the same sentence and not seem to notice. And he should really know better than to take on artistic projects now, since he has a terrible track record for delivering on his promises. He'd be perfect for public office.

Besides, if nothing else, a glance at the Marvel month-to-month sales numbers (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2006/10/25/marvel-month-to-month-sales-september-2006/) indicates that the people who don't like what's going on are way outnumbered by the people who do.

-- Ed

[Hanshotfirst113]

I've heard very mixed opinions on Bendis. What's he like?

[Shawn Hopkins]

I've heard very mixed opinions on Bendis. What's he like?

This is my personal assessment of Brian Michael Bendis:

He started out as a really cool creator of hardboiled indie crime comics like AKA Goldfish, and Jinx, black and whites that were published under the Caliber Comics line. You wouldn't know it from his current output, but he's actually an awesome artist with a unique style based heavily on photo reference. I have the first issue of Jinx, signed by him. He just wrote BENDIS! on a panel on the inside.

He moved to Image and started gaining popularity with Powers, which mixed the crime stuff he was known for with superheroes. Powers: Who Killed Retro Girl? is still one of the better superhero comics I've read. Then I guess he sold out, but he sold out well. With Ultimate Spiderman, Daredevil and Alias other projects he became such a prolific and influential Marvel writer that his "decompressed," talky, snarky, writing with trade collections in mind style influenced much of the line. Supposedly he's now one of the powers that be there, along with Quesada and Millar, he guides major storylines like Disassembled and House of M.

His style is good for people who like talky, character-driven comics, but those weaned on densely plotted silver age comics might be in for a little shock. Most of his output is good, I think, though sometimes he gets a little repetitive or his style starts to grate on the nerves.

In person? I've never met the guy, but he seems witty and willing to interact with fans based on the letter columns in Powers and his participation in the Jinxworld message board. I like to think of Bendis as a less crabby, much less hirsute Warren Ellis who drives on the right side of the road.

Oh yeah, and he loves Luke Cage.

[Hanshotfirst113]

He's rumored to have a lot of power behind the scenes. I wonder why.

[Shawn Hopkins]

He's rumored to have a lot of power behind the scenes. I wonder why.

I told you. His writing for the trade style and other things abouth his writing style have become part of THE style at Marvel, and it's making them lots of money.

It's fun to think about, but it's probably not because he has sexually incriminating pictures of Joey Q or something.

[Hanshotfirst113]

I told you. His writing for the trade style and other things abouth his writing style have become part of THE style at Marvel, and it's making them lots of money.

It's fun to think about, but it's probably not because he has sexually incriminating pictures of Joey Q or something.

There's a great mental picture.


You wouldn't know it from his current output, but he's actually an awesome artist with a unique style based heavily on photo reference.

I know him as a writer. I had no idea he could draw.


Supposedly he's now one of the powers that be there, along with Quesada and Millar.

Millar? The Ultimates writer? I'm behind the times. Is he a heavy hitter there? Oh, and how is The Ultimates, by the by? Again, I've heard mixed opinions?


I like to think of Bendis as a less crabby, much less hirsute Warren Ellis who drives on the right side of the road.

Who's the other fellow you mentioned? Ellis? Remember, I know little, as I've only jumped onboard the world of comics very recently.


His style is good for people who like talky, character-driven comics, but those weaned on densely plotted silver age comics might be in for a little shock.

Meaning he focues more on the characters than on the overall story, the story is simpler, or he's much slicker and more modern? Not trying to annoy you, I'm just utterly unknowing, and you seem to posess much knowledge, oh Comics Wise One.

[Shawn Hopkins]

The Ultimates is an eye-searingly badass, widescreen action comic. It's like a summer blockbuster on a comics page. Like a summer blockbuster, there's sometimes gaps in little things like logic, and it's very indulgent with double-paged spreads of superhero carnage and drawn out storylines. Its publishing schedule is very erratic because of the hyper-detailed art. But it's still one of the most exciting reads out there, and it includes little mysteries like the traitor storyline that keep fans talking and it suspense.

I can't really educate you about Warren Ellis and Mark Millar and everything else to do with comics in the last 10 years in a forum post. You're just going to have to do a little reading on your own. It's not hard to figure out what the influential books are or find interviews with these guys.

Finally, Bendis at his best writes comic books like a good TV show, with lots of realistic, snappy dialogue and characterization focused scenes. His stuff doesn't always rush to cram lots of plot into each issue, though, instead focusing on characters and their interactions. A major complaint is he stretches a two or three issue story out over six. Other people might say the slow building storylines are more involving and suspenseful. This is called decompression.

Decompression, by the way, when done right is not like an episode of Dragon Ball Z, where characters spend the whole time powering up an attack or in the umptieth repetitive fight scene. Things happen in a properly decompressed story and those things build toward the plot, it's just that the things that happen are examined more closely and they aren't necessarily punches and chase scenes.

[Hanshotfirst113]

The Ultimates is an eye-searingly badass, widescreen action comic. It's like a summer blockbuster on a comics page. Like a summer blockbuster, there's sometimes gaps in little things like logic, and it's very indulgent with double-paged spreads of superhero carnage and drawn out storylines. Its publishing schedule is very erratic because of the hyper-detailed art. But it's still one of the most exciting reads out there, and it includes little mysteries like the traitor storyline that keep fans talking and it suspense.

I can't really educate you about Warren Ellis and Mark Millar and everything else to do with comics in the last 10 years in a forum post. You're just going to have to do a little reading on your own. It's not hard to figure out what the influential books are or find interviews with these guys.

Finally, Bendis at his best writes comic books like a good TV show, with lots of realistic, snappy dialogue and characterization focused scenes. His stuff doesn't always rush to cram lots of plot into each issue, though, instead focusing on characters and their interactions. A major complaint is he stretches a two or three issue story out over six. Other people might say the slow building storylines are more involving and suspenseful. This is called decompression.

Decompression, by the way, when done right is not like an episode of Dragon Ball Z, where characters spend the whole time powering up an attack or in the umptieth repetitive fight scene. Things happen in a properly decompressed story and those things build toward the plot, it's just that the things that happen are examined more closely and they aren't necessarily punches and chase scenes.

The Ultimates line as a whole is a strange beast. I've never been sure what to make of it. I take it you're none too fond of DBZ?

[RAINMAN]

Money does not indicate quality. Not to say that I feel that Quesada ruined Marvel (I have absolutely no knowledge of their recent workings, and make no claims whatsoever), but making money has no bearing on a quality work of art.


The sales of the books could also be taken for other reasones. Like those who got into marvel by the LA movies and chances are they don`t know how different things were in the past like spider using wrist band for webshooters. And then there are those who are fans of big name writers and will support them no matther what.

[Shawn Hopkins]

It could be, but it's probably not. That's ignoring the most obvious answer in favor of a less likely theory that fits your personal prejudices and worldview. The books got better overall, or at least got more appealling to the average consumer.

I don't dislike Dragon Ball Z. It's a good comic and TV show for little kids, I guess. I'm just pointing out that it was so stretched out and mind-numbingly repetitive that even Toriyama got sick of it.

The Ultimates line is generally good. Someone like you, who is ignorant (and I don't mean that in a mean way Han, just that you lack knowledge) of current Marvel workings and continuity would be better off starting there, honestly.

[Hanshotfirst113]

It could be, but it's probably not. That's ignoring the most obvious answer in favor of a less likely theory that fits your personal prejudices and worldview. The books got better overall, or at least got more appealling to the average consumer.

I don't dislike Dragon Ball Z. It's a good comic and TV show for little kids, I guess. I'm just pointing out that it was so stretched out and mind-numbingly repetitive that even Toriyama got sick of it.

The Ultimates line is generally good. Someone like you, who is ignorant (and I don't mean that in a mean way Han, just that you lack knowledge) of current Marvel workings and continuity would be better off starting there, honestly.

Well, I think that the whole point of the Ultimates line was to hook new readers and not bog things down in 40+ years of continuity. No offense taken :), and call me Mike.

P.S. Would it kill Marvel to put the freaking covers in the TPBs? It drives me nuts.

[RAINMAN]

It could be, but it's probably not. That's ignoring the most obvious answer in favor of a less likely theory that fits your personal prejudices and worldview. The books got better overall, or at least got more appealling to the average consumer.

I don't dislike Dragon Ball Z. It's a good comic and TV show for little kids, I guess. I'm just pointing out that it was so stretched out and mind-numbingly repetitive that even Toriyama got sick of it.



I can asure you that DBZ is not just for kids unless you only watch the dub and not the original japan version. Looks like your worldview no different then mines.

[Blue Priestess]

I wouldn't say that Quesada has ruined Marvel, but he hasn't done it any favors; as much as fandom hated him, it seems that (with the magic power of hindsight) Bill Jemas was responsible for a lot of the good & daring stuff done early in Quesada's tenure. Once Jemas was gone, things started to go back to business as usual, and then they went further into a glorified test market for movie/TV properties instead of a valid medium itself.

Say what you will about the story decisions, it's Quesada's decisions about the little things that bug me the most. Letter pages were reinstated, but it seems that they've done that mostly to rub fans' expectations/wishes in their faces. You have 'special advert' comic sections that are half as long as the actual story and double the issue's price. Finally, you have the fact that he's waffling on fan complaints about there being 25 pages of ads surrounding 22 pages of story. Paul O'Brien details that last annoyance quite well here: http://www.thexaxis.com/minis/warsong3.htm

Quesada just doesn't really know what he's doing other than seeing what Hollywood & mainstream audiences (i.e. people who watch Guiding Light) will bite.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Ah, how you must miss Stan Lee ;).

[Shawn Hopkins]

I can asure you that DBZ is not just for kids unless you only watch the dub and not the original japan version. Looks like your worldview no different then mines.

It is definitely for kids. It was created with kids in mind and marketed to kids. It originally ran in a magazine for boys, for crying out loud, a magazine whose name translates to Boys Jump. Didn't you notice the repetitive power fantasy stories and juvenile characters?

It's just that the Japanese allow more sex and violence and swearing in their entertainment for kids than the U.S./Europe does, so the dubs and translated versions had to be toned down.

Know what else is for kids? Ranma is for kids, at least the junior high set. Yu-Gi Oh is for kids. Pokemon is for kids. Sailor Moon is for kids. Of course, this a cartoon Web site where adults get together to discuss Scooby Doo, so there should be no shame in sharing our interest in that here. I just hate the "It comes from Japan and has boobs in it so it must be mature" attitude.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Looks like your worldview no different then mines.

What? Is "mines" even a word?


Didn't you notice the repetitive power fantasy stories and juvenile characters?

Sure. I just chose to ignore'em ;). I never said it was great art by any means.

[RAINMAN]

It is definitely for kids. It was created with kids in mind and marketed to kids. It originally ran in a magazine for boys, for crying out loud, a magazine whose name translates to Boys Jump. Didn't you notice the repetitive power fantasy stories and juvenile characters?

It's just that the Japanese allow more sex and violence and swearing in their entertainment for kids than the U.S./Europe does, so the dubs and translated versions had to be toned down.

Know what else is for kids? Ranma is for kids, at least the junior high set. Yu-Gi Oh is for kids. Pokemon is for kids. Sailor Moon is for kids. Of course, this a cartoon Web site where adults get together to discuss Scooby Doo, so there should be no shame in sharing our interest in that here. I just hate the "It comes from Japan and has boobs in it so it must be mature" attitude.



It may have ben gear toward lie boys in mind but that don`t mean it don`t have stuff that will get older people to watch it and by that I don`t mean boobies or mature stuff. However, DBZ and other japan toons/manga are stories for another topic. Let get back on topic about marvel and it current events.


I don`t know if JQ is the one coming up whit all these ideas or hes giving writers their freedom to do as they please. All I know is I don`t like how they mistreaded or change some of my favorite char (like gambit,venom carnage) either for stories reasones or due to most fans not likeing them? How is turing gambit into death gonna make people like him? If they didn`t like him before then they never will like him.:sad:

[Ed Liu]

I don`t know if JQ is the one coming up whit all these ideas or hes giving writers their freedom to do as they please. All I know is I don`t like how they mistreaded or change some of my favorite char (like gambit,venom carnage) either for stories reasones or due to most fans not likeing them? How is turing gambit into death gonna make people like him? If they didn`t like him before then they never will like him.:sad:

I don't know how much effect Joe Q. really has on setting editorial policy at Marvel. It really seems that he has a "hands off" policy more often than not, letting the editors and creators run their titles as they will.

I don't think they'd do something like turn Gambit into Death to make people like him. I think they'd do something like that because not as many people like him (as judged by the dismal sales and cancellation of his solo title), so not as many people would complain at the drastic change in the character.

-- Ed

[Hanshotfirst113]

This is my personal assessment of Brian Michael Bendis

Dare I ask what you think of Todd McFarlene?

[Shawn Hopkins]

It may have ben gear toward lie boys in mind but that don`t mean it don`t have stuff that will get older people to watch it and by that I don`t mean boobies or mature stuff. However, DBZ and other japan toons/manga are stories for another topic. Let get back on topic about marvel and it current events.


I don`t know if JQ is the one coming up whit all these ideas or hes giving writers their freedom to do as they please. All I know is I don`t like how they mistreaded or change some of my favorite char (like gambit,venom carnage) either for stories reasones or due to most fans not likeing them? How is turing gambit into death gonna make people like him? If they didn`t like him before then they never will like him.:sad:

Gambit was soiled when they revealed he played a part in the Mutant Massacre. I found it hard to like him after that, even though they tried to make it happen. That was before Quesada.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Dare I ask what you think of Todd McFarlene?

Todd is an okay artist, with a nice goofy, cartoony style. He's a terrible writer, however. His business skills are obviously very good, he's turned a character concept that isn't that appealing, Spawn, and made a merchandising empire out of it. He also is pretty much responsible for the boom in expensive high quality action figures through his McFarlane toys line.

[Hanshotfirst113]

He's a terrible writer, however.

"Writer" is putting it kindly, from what I've read.

[Wonderwall]

"Writer" is putting it kindly, from what I've read.

Ouch:D , feel bad for Todd...then I realize hes stinkin rich so then i dont feel guilty.

[GregX]

I personally like the Quesada era. I think Marvel finally got its balls back, and is telling good, character driven stories.

And, finally offing Carnage was the greatest thing ever, and I love how he went out with a whimper instead of a bang. Carnage symbolises EVERYTHING that was wrong with Marvel in the 90s.

- Cloning a "popular" character. Face it, Carnage was a third rate clone of a second rate character.
- No depth, no dimension. Nothing. He kills and that's it. Give me the Green Goblin ANY DAY!
- Overlong, overblown crossovers like "Maximum Garbage" that had no plot or subtance. "House of M" had problems, but it was light years better than that travesty.

Oy, I could go on. Thank you Bendis, thank you Sentry.

[Hanshotfirst113]

And, finally offing Carnage was the greatest thing ever, and I love how he went out with a whimper instead of a bang. Carnage symbolises EVERYTHING that was wrong with Marvel in the 90s.

But he looked cool ;). Oh, wait. That was cough*Spawn*cough what was wrong in the 90s.

[GregX]

Spawn sucked too.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Spawn sucked too.

Did he now? I wouldn't know much beyond the HBO show.


No depth, no dimension. Nothing. He kills and that's it. Perhaps, but the idea of someone like Ted Bundy getting superhuman powers is unsettling. Come to think of it, I wonder where a skilled writer would take that idea?

[RAINMAN]

I personally like the Quesada era. I think Marvel finally got its balls back, and is telling good, character driven stories.

And, finally offing Carnage was the greatest thing ever, and I love how he went out with a whimper instead of a bang. Carnage symbolises EVERYTHING that was wrong with Marvel in the 90s.

- Cloning a "popular" character. Face it, Carnage was a third rate clone of a second rate character.
- No depth, no dimension. Nothing. He kills and that's it. Give me the Green Goblin ANY DAY!
- Overlong, overblown crossovers like "Maximum Garbage" that had no plot or subtance. "House of M" had problems, but it was light years better than that travesty.

Oy, I could go on. Thank you Bendis, thank you Sentry.



Funny how eveytime someone bash the 90`s they alway blame a character that was draw up from the 90`s as if they are whole reason why the 90`s were so bad? As for him not having any depth or dimension, well I can say that for most of the viallin in comic today,including the (current) green goblin. And just how many god like hero does marvel needs? I liked it better when you can count on one hand how many marvel had? The sentry was so lame that if it was not for NA he would still be in marvel limbo. I`ll take the silver surfer any time.

[GregX]

Funny how eveytime someone bash the 90`s they alway blame a character that was draw up from the 90`s as if they are whole reason why the 90`s were so bad? As for him not having any depth or dimension, well I can say that for most of the viallin in comic today,including the (current) green goblin. And just how many god like hero does marvel needs? I liked it better when you can count on one hand how many marvel had? The sentry was so lame that if it was not for NA he would still be in marvel limbo. I`ll take the silver surfer any time.
Tell you what, I would love to debate you. I think we'd have fun.

But, first, I have one question. What's a "Viallin"?

Your posts are border-line unreadable. Please, learn proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Come to think of it, I wonder where a skilled writer would take that idea?

It would be kind of like the Kid Miracleman scenes in Alan Moore's Miracleman, maybe. Maybe one day the rights will be worked out and those books will be available again.


Funny how eveytime someone bash the 90`s they alway blame a character that was draw up from the 90`s as if they are whole reason why the 90`s were so bad? As for him not having any depth or dimension, well I can say that for most of the viallin in comic today,including the (current) green goblin. And just how many god like hero does marvel needs? I liked it better when you can count on one hand how many marvel had? The sentry was so lame that if it was not for NA he would still be in marvel limbo. I`ll take the silver surfer any time.

Carnage did get a little depth in a one shot written by Warren Ellis, Mindbomb. Unfortunately for people who actually like Carnage, the depths that were plumbed were the depths of nihilistic psychotic despair, resulting in one of the more depressing and violent superhero comics I've read. There is no God in Carnage's universe, Warren Ellis tells us, no point and no right or wrong.

I've heard that this story isn't well liked by Spider fans. I can see that. Watching Carnage fight Venom in a Maximum Carnage teamup is much more easy to swallow that getting an idea of what would make someone like him tick. Even I, despite realizing how well the book was done technically, felt grimy and dirty after reading it.

[GregX]

Just to be a smart alek, I have altered that quote ;).
I'll go one step further and translate his post his post to proper English.



Originally Posted by RAINMAN
Funny how everytime someone bashes the 90`s, they always blame a character that was drawn up from (in) the 90`s. As if they are the whole reason why the 90`s were so bad?

New Paragraph
As for him (Carnage) not having any depth or dimension, well I can say that for most of the viallins (VILLAINS) in comics today,(Put a space here)including the (current) Green Goblin. And, just how many god-like heroes does Marvel need? I liked it better when you could count on one hand how many Marvel had. The Sentry was so lame that if it was not for NA, he would still be in Marvel limbo. I`ll take the Silver Surfer any time.


By the way, Rain Man... or RAINMAN (if you prefer), the quote for your avatar, "Shes a evil woman" should be, "She's an evil woman."

[Hanshotfirst113]

Carnage did get a little depth in a one shot written by Warren Ellis, Mindbomb. Unfortunately for people who actually like Carnage, the depths that were plumbed were the depths of nihilistic psychotic despair, resulting in one of the more depressing and violent superhero comics I've read. There is no God in Carnage's universe, Warren Ellis tells us, no point and no right or wrong.

I've heard that this story isn't well liked by Spider fans. I can see that. Watching Carnage fight Venom in a Maximum Carnage teamup is much more easy to swallow that getting an idea of what would make someone like him tick. Even I, despite realizing how well the book was done technically, felt grimy and dirty after reading it.

Pretty much sounds exactly like what I was saying. And you're right, that would be incredibly dark and disturbing, but in a perverse way, intriguing.

[RAINMAN]

Carnage did get a little depth in a one shot written by Warren Ellis, Mindbomb. Unfortunately for people who actually like Carnage, the depths that were plumbed were the depths of nihilistic psychotic despair, resulting in one of the more depressing and violent superhero comics I've read. There is no God in Carnage's universe, Warren Ellis tells us, no point and no right or wrong.

I've heard that this story isn't well liked by Spider fans. I can see that. Watching Carnage fight Venom in a Maximum Carnage teamup is much more easy to swallow that getting an idea of what would make someone like him tick. Even I, despite realizing how well the book was done technically, felt grimy and dirty after reading it.



I would really like to read that and the other one shot. I herd it shows how messed up carnage really is but what do people expect from a guy who killed his own grandma. The guy is just pure evil. I know people don`t like those type of viallins. But just how many viallin need a tragic reason as why they became a bad person? If carnage was given a tragic origine,then that would have killed his character more then what the sentry did to him.


You know it always bother me that bendis never explain why or how carnage was capture and put in preson? At the end of venom vs carnage book, both carnage and venom escape from spiderman,black cat and toxic. And another thing I don`t understand is as much bendis hated carnage, yet he still made a ultimate version of him? I was shock to find out there was gonna be a ultimate carnage.

[Hanshotfirst113]

And another thing I don`t understand is as much bendis hated carnage, yet he still made a ultimate version of him? I was shock to find out there was gonna be a ultimate carnage.

I'd imagine the higher-ups at Marvel told him to.

[Shawn Hopkins]

(Comment removed)

As for Jessica and Luke, Han, Bendis did write the story where they had casual sex, if that's the one you're talking about. That was in one of the early issues of Alias. It was a weak moment for both of them, though, and they've since went from casual flings to a loving relationship as married parents.

[Antiyonder]

I would really like to read that and the other one shot. I herd it shows how messed up carnage really is but what do people expect from a guy who killed his own grandma. The guy is just pure evil. I know people don`t like those type of viallins. But just how many viallin need a tragic reason as why they became a bad person? If carnage was given a tragic origine,then that would have killed his character more then what the sentry did to him.

Since when does giving a villain a personallity mean tragedy? Take the Joker, he too is a killing machine. What makes Joker different you may ask?

He doesn't settle for killing someone. He like to make sure the method of killing is creative. He doesn't settle for simply shooting or stabbing, infact he uses a particular chemical so his victims die with a smile. Other personality traits include:

1. The fact that he kind off mocks the the tragic villain. By that I mean, whenever he tells a therapist what drives him to villainy he gives a different sob story every time. Here's Batman's comment to Harley concerning here counseling of the Joker:

"What did he tell you Harley? Was it the line about the abusive father, or the one about the alcoholic mom? Of course, the runaway orphan story is particularly moving too."

2. He's a patriotic lunatic. In Batman/Captain America, he turns on the Red Skull after discovering he's a Nazi. That's because, he's a lunatic, not a traitor.

So what makes you think that personality=tradegy?


As for GregX, true Carnage isn't that good of a villain his first story is pretty decent. I also like The Carnage Cosmic storyline written by Tom during Amazing Spider-Man #430-431, especially since he finds a nonlethal way of getting rid of Carnage. That would be the Silver Surfer imprisoning Carnage in a shell of Etheral Energy. Since Spider-Girl disregards the Spider-Man stories from 1999 to today, I imagine Cassidy is still trapped in there.

[GregX]

WHile, I did not care for the Spider-Man/Batman crossover, it featured one scene I really like.

The Joker insults Carnage.

Joker: I always considered myself the Orson Welles of crime and chaos. You, on the other hand are more like David Hasselhoff."
::Later::
Joker: I was wrong, with dialogue like that, you're not Hasselhoff. More like Dolph Lungen

I agree with him. Joker is a great character. Carnage is a hack.

[RAINMAN]

Since when does giving a villain a personallity mean tragedy? Take the Joker, he too is a killing machine. What makes Joker different you may ask?

He doesn't settle for killing someone. He like to make sure the method of killing is creative. He doesn't settle for simply shooting or stabbing, infact he uses a particular chemical so his victims die with a smile. Other personality traits include:

1. The fact that he kind off mocks the the tragic villain. By that I mean, whenever he tells a therapist what drives him to villainy he gives a different sob story every time. Here's Batman's comment to Harley concerning here counseling of the Joker:

"What did he tell you Harley? Was it the line about the abusive father, or the one about the alcoholic mom? Of course, the runaway orphan story is particularly moving too."

2. He's a patriotic lunatic. In Batman/Captain America, he turns on the Red Skull after discovering he's a Nazi. That's because, he's a lunatic, not a traitor.

So what makes you think that personality=tradegy?


As for GregX, true Carnage isn't that good of a villain his first story is pretty decent. I also like The Carnage Cosmic storyline written by Tom during Amazing Spider-Man #430-431, especially since he finds a nonlethal way of getting rid of Carnage. That would be the Silver Surfer imprisoning Carnage in a shell of Etheral Energy. Since Spider-Girl disregards the Spider-Man stories from 1999 to today, I imagine Cassidy is still trapped in there.


The joker is a monster. That is his personality. Giving him a tragic origin just runied him. That is way I perfer the origin DCAU give him then the killing joke from the comics. Make no misstake,I never say any viallin who does have a tragic past are lame. It just that every viallin don`t need one. Sometimes you have to let a viallin be a true evil heartless viallin.

[Doop]

The Joker having a tragic background doesn't make him any less evil. The Killing Joke, where his background was revealed, had him committing some of his most horrible crimes (crippling Barbara and trying to drive Jim Gordon insane by putting torturing him and showing him naked photos of her crippled body).

[Wonderwall]

Also the Killing Joke has parts that may or may not be real, as the man says himself that he remembers it differently everytime. So I always thought that he could'vve been some loser who was pushed to far, but I awlays chalked it up to that the story really only showed how crazy he really was. I know I didnt feel sorry for him after reading it, as opposed to the revamped Mr Freeze or Two Face.

[Doop]

That origin was confirmed to be true in the Killing Joke.

[Wonderwall]

That origin was confirmed to be true in the Killing Joke.

Really now, well I still by my point that the Joker doesnt deserve any sympathy, no matter how bad he had it before.

[Sage Shinigami]

That origin was confirmed to be true in the Killing Joke.

Where was it confirmed? I'm confused. If you mean in the Killing Joke, well like the Joker said in that book, he remembers it differently each time; that origin is just as likely to be true as the other ones.

And Carnage is an okay villain. A huge threat, if nothing else, and I always liked the symbiotes more than the Goblin, for whatever reason. :D

[Stu]

I think Carnage is more of a victim of overexposure more than anything else. His first appearance is one of the better comic stories I've read and there's been a good story here and there but a lot of them are just mindless stuff included in there because if you put him on a cover, he sells.

With the powers he has and one of the coolest supervillain designs ever, there's a lot of potential with Carnage. Shame Paul Jenkins never got to bring him back in his run on Spectacular Spider-Man a few years ago, and that Bendis later killed him.

[Bubblegum Girl]

IMO, they should have just done Civil War instead of House of M and Decimation. I really don't like the idea that only 198 muntants only exist in the Marvel universe.

[Sage Shinigami]

I think Civil War would've been better handled back when the Avengers was like, its own country or whatever it was Johns turned them into, and the heroes were forced to register with other heroes and get training from the Avengers. Then even I would be torn on who's wrong and who's right.

[Clayface]

IMO, they should have just done Civil War instead of House of M and Decimation. I really don't like the idea that only 198 muntants only exist in the Marvel universe.

Personally, I would flip those - I couldn't care less about Civil War, but enjoyed House of M/Decimation. Besides, if you've been reading the best x-book on the market right now, X-Factor, you'd know that the effects of House of M will probably (almost defintiely) be undone, and our intrepid X-factor heros will play a major role.

[Doop]

Where was it confirmed? I'm confused. If you mean in the Killing Joke, well like the Joker said in that book, he remembers it differently each time; that origin is just as likely to be true as the other ones.

And Carnage is an okay villain. A huge threat, if nothing else, and I always liked the symbiotes more than the Goblin, for whatever reason. :D

My mistake. :yawn:

The origin in Killing Joke was confirmed to be true in Gotham Knights #54.

[Somejerk]

IMO, they should have just done Civil War instead of House of M and Decimation. I really don't like the idea that only 198 muntants only exist in the Marvel universe.

That would have made things even harder with a 100,000 mutants running around as well as masked vigilanties.
Also would have made Civil war into a Mutant Hatefest

[Sage Shinigami]

That would have made things even harder with a 100,000 mutants running around as well as masked vigilanties.
Also would have made Civil war into a Mutant Hatefest

Not really, the X-Universe and the rest of the MU tend to ignore each other now and again.