Justice League "Paradise Lost, Parts 1 & 2" Talkback (Spoilers) [Archive]

Karkull

01-21-2002, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by Crickett
Looked more like a villain I saw in a Superman comic a few months ago named Satanus (don't know if I got the name right) to me, especially with the horns the way they were.

Man, after I went through all that trouble SPOILER-proofing my post on the subject, :rolleyes:.

This episode was great! Susan Eisenberg and George Newburn are doing great jobs as Wonder Woman and Superman's voices, respectively. The Flash had some great lines and was useful in battle. Batman has something up his sleeve (of course he'd have a beacon in the Javelin-7!). And Felix Faust is actually menacing. I'm sure he'll be the greatest Felix that the League will ever face.

:D.

Actually, in episode two I'm hoping that the Flash rags on him for having the name Felix.

Anyway, the series is coming together perfectly. Even the music was cool this time (as it was in The Enemy Below)!

Batman 80

01-22-2002, 01:35 AM

The music and voice acting was very good. And the Flash continues to make me laugh. My favorite scene was when J'onn knocked out the snake with one punch. I'm not really into magic and stuff but this episode was well written. I'm glad they stuck with Susan Eisenberg as Diana's voice.

Tim Drake

01-22-2002, 05:10 AM

The best voicework for wonder woman yet. I think partially she's gotten better but the episode is a more emotional one. However I did notice small things like when using her super powers her grunts were much more believable. Music wasn't half bad. The animation was spectacular. All in all the Justice League series seems to be picking up steam. I might like this one more than The Enemy Below!

Naraht

01-22-2002, 09:28 AM

OK, I'll be the one to say...this episode sucked.

Oh, you're home sick & want to leave in the middle of a disaster? Sure, hey take our only plane even though you can fly, and made it here to the real world just fine without it.

Oh, some guy took over your home, and you need to go globe hopping and break antiques to get some grey thingies? Hey, we'll help! Lets go trash a mall! There's not much more we can do to this museum anyway!

Oh no, my mommy will be mad at me, so I'd better make up an excuse....

The only decent thing about this ep was Batman, who was so completely kick ass, it did make it watchable.

JL4Ever

01-22-2002, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by naraht
OK, I'll be the one to say...this episode sucked.

Oh, you're home sick & want to leave in the middle of a disaster? Sure, hey take our only plane even though you can fly, and made it here to the real world just fine without it.

Oh, some guy took over your home, and you need to go globe hopping and break antiques to get some grey thingies? Hey, we'll help! Lets go trash a mall! There's not much more we can do to this museum anyway!

Oh no, my mommy will be mad at me, so I'd better make up an excuse....

The only decent thing about this ep was Batman, who was so completely kick ass, it did make it watchable.

What you call trivial, I call high drama. WW being homesick is a crucial point in her development as a character because she struck out on her own for the first time in her life into a strange new world to save mankind, leaving everything she knows behind. Now she's adapting to a completely new way of life while still dealing with the need to return to her roots. Her need to return home to her mother shows her loyalty to her family.

As for her "globe hopping" it shows her determinastion to save her people, the same determination she showed when she left to save mankind. Also, the idea that she must complete the mission despite her feelings shows her sense of heart and loyalty. She's not only a fighting machine like Hawkgirl, she's ruled by her heart as well. And the fact that the JL joined in to help her in her quest shows that strong bonds are being formed between these characters.

In my opinion this was a superior episode that really spotlighted WW's character. I'm itching for part two. :D

Lodoss War Fan

01-22-2002, 11:05 AM

I really enjoyed this episode, to me paradise lost is so far one of the best episodes I've seen next to the enemy below.
I like the character development on wonder woman, alot of emotion and drama at play.
I like that batman is in this one and the fight with WW and supes was great.

Originally posted by naraht
OK, I'll be the one to say...this episode sucked.
Oh, you're home sick & want to leave in the middle of a disaster? Sure, hey take our only plane even though you can fly, and made it here to the real world just fine without it.

yeah WW can fly but it sure is a far distance from Metropolis to Themyscira and it will take alot of endurance and energy to get there.

Originally posted by naraht
Oh, some guy took over your home, and you need to go globe hopping and break antiques to get some grey thingies? Hey, we'll help! Lets go trash a mall! There's not much more we can do to this museum anyway!

hey, you got no choice when someone has imprisoned your family and you have no way of releasing them. You just got to do what it takes to save them.

I can't wait for part 2 and I also thought WW's voice in this one was much better.

BeastBoyWonder

01-22-2002, 11:30 AM

this has been my most favorite episode so far...I had one minor qualm with this episode. The scene where Batman was intimidating the dude to tell him about Felix Faust started out awesome, but once you see the figure of Batman, you almost laugh. He just looks sillier than what he did in BTAS or TNBA in that pose.

gregstones

01-22-2002, 12:18 PM

After watching part one of "Paradise Lost," I have finally come up with the perfect word to sum up "Justice League":

Sterile.

It is so visually dead, it's painful. All the characters' emotions are pretty deadened, too. I would think that upon seeing one's home completely demolished, the reaction would have been more dramatic than Wonder Woman's emotionless, "What?"

And how about a little more grief over all her sisters that have been turned to stone?? That's the sort of thing where you drop to your knees in anguish and can't go on. Maybe Wonder Woman's minilmalist reaction was meant to show how strong she is, but instead she just seems totally dead inside.

I also have to comment on the latest Batman treatment: Is it me, or is it less than impressive to see him use his imposing presence to scare an elderly professor?

Bring Paul Dini, Eric Radomski, and Alan Burnett back into the fold, and once again there will be a show worth watching.

JL4Ever

01-22-2002, 12:29 PM

Wonder Woman was far from sterile in my opinion. She was a strong-willed warrior with a great sense of duty. The scene where she encounters a stone version of her mother was powerful. Her true sense of loss was apparent when she ferosiously attached Faust and cried. And the intensity by which she goes about collecting the relics to save her people shows how determined she is to save her sisters. You can see it when she screams that she won't be denied when the first relic is taken from her and also in the intensity she puts forth when fighting Superman. This episode was far from sterile, it was moving and action-packed.

Karkull

01-22-2002, 01:04 PM

It might be a little sterile, but it's certainly more emotional than some of the other episodes in recent memory (Stewart in In Blackest Night). It's improving.

Justice League 2000

01-22-2002, 01:52 PM

this episode was very good and well written. :)

Bird Boy

01-22-2002, 01:57 PM

hmm..well, I found it rather enjoyable. Part 2 looks promising........

yeah, I'm just so detailed in my talkback/reviews.. :rolleyes:

:D

-BB

Trent Lane

01-22-2002, 03:16 PM

Wow, that episode went by quick! The Wonder Woman/ Superman fight was the highlight of the show, but that scene where Batman came up behind the museum guy was pretty cool...

Blight

01-22-2002, 05:33 PM

This was a great episode! The story, animation, music, and voice acting were all very well done. Susan Eisenberg is definitely showing a huge improvement as Wonder Woman. I guess after a few episodes she got the hang of it! Robert Englund's voice acting was excellent and perfectly sinister. Wish Batman could have been used more, but It looks like he'll be more involved in part 2. Overall, this was a hugely enjoyable episode and part 2 should be even better!

See ya!
Blight

Caped Crusader

01-22-2002, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by livewire
Pretty good! WW's voice is much improved. Best part was the WW/Superman fight.

Yeah,the fight was the best part of this episode. I just can't stand this Superman, he is wimpy,ugly,and his voice... :eek: . I really enjoyed seeing Wonder Woman beat him up!

The episode is alright-so far. I'm not really into magic eps,but I'll give this one a chance

Joker85

01-22-2002, 05:50 PM

Not as good as "The Enemy Below", but good. I enjoyed the WW/Superman fight, even though it was very predictable. Batman and MM were very good in this one as well. It was even kinda nice to have a break from GL, he'd been in every on up until now. I wasn't over impressed with the villian, but maybe he'll get better next week. Can't wait for part 2!! :)

ZorBrak

01-22-2002, 05:50 PM

Superman acts wayyyyy to helpless in the whole show so far and that's a dissapointment, but the show itself is constantly seeeming better although I did not like In Blackest Night, The Enemy below was very good, and last night's episode was MUCH better than I expected.

Batman 80

01-22-2002, 05:58 PM

I bet you Superman won't be helpless in War World.

MattL.

01-22-2002, 06:14 PM

My only major gripe with the episode is what was done with Superman.

I don't even mind him losing the fight to Diana since in my mind the characters have always been even anyway.

But I do think that with this ep, the series is offically guilty of wimping Superman out to make the others look good. Sure, I dont want Superman to hog the spotlight, but making him a wimp is insulting and uncessary.

I hope War World finally shows us what the JL Supes can do. Because right now, the creative team is bordering on what seems to be thinly veiled disgust for him. :( :mad:

Back to the episode, I *love* this version of Diana. She is very different from the comics incarnation or even the woman we see in Alex Ross's fantastic work "Spirit of Truth". But this is still a take on Diana that I enjoy. I dont even mind the lasso being basically a just damn good rope.

I really enjoyed the character interaction, the take on Felix Faust, the action sequences, and am looking foward to the big showdown with Hades.

jm5150bc

01-22-2002, 08:13 PM

I thought this episode was really good... and the BEST animation of the series yet. The characters all looked great- especially Wonder Woman and Superman. I wasn't a big fan of the Superman re-design at first, but I'm really starting to like it. He seems more mature (but not OLD) and definitely more like the guy who should be leading the group. I'm a major Batman freak, and though I'd love to see more of him, I think that when he is used, it's very well done- in this episode especially.

On this whole Super-wimp thing... I kinda thought there were some instances where maybe there was a problem in that area, but not in this episode. The only reason I could see that Diana "won" the fight is that he figured out much earlier than she did that they were actually fighting each other, and seemed VERY restrained afterwards. And the new voice doesn't bother me at all... I LOVED Tim Daly's Superman, but I don't think George Newbern is doing a bad job at all.

Can't wait for Part 2...

kid_flash

01-22-2002, 08:31 PM

That was AWESOME! They really brought out some cool points of each character, without undermining any of them. Susan Eisanberg put away all doubt--this IS Wonder Woman! The animation was smooth, the fight scenes awesome (Superman vs. Wonder Woman--YES!). The Flash finding the mystic thingie in two seconds was priceless, as were his comments on Themyscara. Batman had a very cool role that didn't place him above the other Leaguers (they just gotta make this guy an official member, he pretty much is anyway!). Just an all-around great episode.

My one complaint--Diana takes the Javelin-7 why? She flew to The Man's World just fine, and the League needs that ship! Still, in a sorta classic Superfriends way, it was cool.

neilf

01-22-2002, 08:52 PM

This episode was ok. Dialogue was weak. The plot is solid though which shows that they have the right idea - they just need to get Paul Dini in there to write a decent script. I have complained about Superman's voice before but I'm starting to warm up to it. He still doesn't act properly though - not the same air about him that Daly had. Too wimpy. I agree that he should have been able to handle the falling fire truck alone. Like Alex Ross said in a recent interview that was posted (which I've said from the beginning). JL looks good but the writing is not up to par with previous BTAS ad STAS. Good plots! Bad scripts and voice/acting direction. Dialogue very hokey compared to past BTAS, STAS and BBeyond stuff. And since when can WW take Superman out? He really is being made into a wimp.

kid_flash

01-22-2002, 09:09 PM

I was wondering why Diana took out Superman, too, when it hit me (pun intended): She wanted it more. It was an even match until Superman realized who he was fighting. From there, it was all Diana's rage (and you match the two up, Diana'll get angry a lot more and a lot quicker than Superman ever will).

Naraht

01-22-2002, 09:12 PM

ok, I've been ragging on the ep..but the Fire Truck thing didn't bother me...

ok, it's like this....Fire Trucks are REALLY Bulky, as well as being heavy...

You try lifting something bulky...it's not as easy as something that weighs the same, but is compact.

Could Superman have handled it on his own..probably, but the added help was probably wanted...

FLIPMODE

01-22-2002, 10:49 PM

I Liked this Ep alot.

I think That scene Made Batman Look the Coolest so far, out of ALL the epsodes of JL to Date.

WW Vs Supes was good.

Martian Manhunter HAS Superstregnth! One punch Knock out for the Snake.

And I like that Flash did something usefull with his OWN Skills, he is usefull. And he's to cool of a character for them to keep wasting every ep.

Ed Liu

01-23-2002, 10:38 AM

Howdy all,

I think what naraht says "sucked," I'll categorize as "sloppy." I was a bit disappointed at some aspects of this episode, just as I have been by all the other eps up to now. I don't know why Diana leaves when it seems there's still an emergency situation in Metropolis (why didn't they have the rain lighten up in the animation?). It still makes no sense to me that Diana needs the Javelin-7 to fly to Themyscira, when she didn't need it to get to Man's World originally ("I'll take the Javelin-7 -- it's faster" would have been so hard to throw in as she's flying away?). I'm still wondering where, exactly, Diana PUT those little crystal shards when they weren't in her hands (would a little pouch have been THAT hard to animate?). I'm wondering exactly how a museum could afford that Giant Stone Robot security system, OR how they managed to keep the urn and its guardian together over the thousands of years they have apparently existed. I'm wondering how the JL manages to justify its existence when they cause so much property damage in the name of what is, so far, not something that requires a team of Earth's Mightiest Heroes to do.

And nobody is allowed to tell me, "It's just a cartoon," while moaning about how cartoons are ghettoized into kiddie fare in this country. Anybody who complains about the latter is not allowed to whip out the former argument when trying to justify just plain bad or sloppy writing.

That said, there were different little things that I found amusing in the episode. I liked WW's little conversation with herself in the J-7 while trying to explain to her Mom why she did what she did. I liked the little offhand comment about Menalippe in the museum. I really liked the Superman/WW fight sequence, because it pretty firmly places WW's power-levels in our minds (powered-down as he is, everybody still uses Superman as the standard for brute-force power in JL, and WW can hold her own against him).

I'm very keen to see how this all wraps up in the end, but I'm still not as keen on this series as I was on the original Batman animated series, or even the Superman show.

-- Ed/Ace

JL4Ever

01-23-2002, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
Howdy all,

I think what naraht says "sucked," I'll categorize as "sloppy." I was a bit disappointed at some aspects of this episode, just as I have been by all the other eps up to now. I don't know why Diana leaves when it seems there's still an emergency situation in Metropolis (why didn't they have the rain lighten up in the animation?). It still makes no sense to me that Diana needs the Javelin-7 to fly to Themyscira, when she didn't need it to get to Man's World originally ("I'll take the Javelin-7 -- it's faster" would have been so hard to throw in as she's flying away?). I'm still wondering where, exactly, Diana PUT those little crystal shards when they weren't in her hands (would a little pouch have been THAT hard to animate?). I'm wondering exactly how a museum could afford that Giant Stone Robot security system, OR how they managed to keep the urn and its guardian together over the thousands of years they have apparently existed. I'm wondering how the JL manages to justify its existence when they cause so much property damage in the name of what is, so far, not something that requires a team of Earth's Mightiest Heroes to do.

And nobody is allowed to tell me, "It's just a cartoon," while moaning about how cartoons are ghettoized into kiddie fare in this country. Anybody who complains about the latter is not allowed to whip out the former argument when trying to justify just plain bad or sloppy writing.

That said, there were different little things that I found amusing in the episode. I liked WW's little conversation with herself in the J-7 while trying to explain to her Mom why she did what she did. I liked the little offhand comment about Menalippe in the museum. I really liked the Superman/WW fight sequence, because it pretty firmly places WW's power-levels in our minds (powered-down as he is, everybody still uses Superman as the standard for brute-force power in JL, and WW can hold her own against him).

I'm very keen to see how this all wraps up in the end, but I'm still not as keen on this series as I was on the original Batman animated series, or even the Superman show.

-- Ed/Ace

I wouldn't call any of the concerns you brought up sloppy writing or just a product of the medium, I call it suspension of disbelief. In every story there will be things that the reader or viewer has to just believe without reading too much into it.

For example, why did only half of Harvey Dent's face get disfigured after that huge explosion in B:TAS? In reall life that wouldn't have been the case but it made for a good story in that it became a physical manifestation of Dent's internal psychological battle between his dual personality. The same can be said about a play. In Shakespeare's time there were very little props so the audience just had to go with the general story and imagine all the little details.

Honestly, who cares where Wonder Woman stored the crystals or why she took the Javelin-7? Exploring these issues doesn't further the story at all, it just boggs the viewer down in details. In every story you'll find inconsistency, but in the end, a truly good story will be engaging regardless. This episode dealt with the extreme connection Wonder Woman has with her roots and the lengths by which she'll go to ensure the well being of her people. That's high drama. That's engaging. You yourself are anxious to see a resolution so the story must have caught your attention.

So, the next time you're watching JL or any other show or play I suggest that you allow yourself to go with it and decide at the end if the story and characters really moved you, but don't come back and say the story wasn't good because you weren't shown where Wonder Woman kept some crystals.

The Guard

01-23-2002, 11:57 AM

I thought she took the Javelin-7 because it was raining.

Spider

01-23-2002, 12:10 PM

One thing I find interesting is that JL is good enough to warrant this degree of both positive and negative criticism. IMO, I don't believe all television shows are capable of this level of dissection, or if they are, the time spent offering criticism for inferior programs might well be spent otherwise. :)

BeastBoyWonder

01-23-2002, 05:56 PM

good point, at least we have a wide viewer base.

"I hope War World finally shows us what the JL Supes can do. Because right now, the creative team is bordering on what seems to be thinly veiled disgust for him."

One thing that I noticed was that every character in JL has been dropped from an episode so far except for MM and Supes. I know they are the heart and mind of the league, but a good way to deal with the Superman power issue would be to not include him in some episodes, like the rest of the members. I mean, Hawkgirl has been cut out of two episodes so far, and she's a "new" character to the animated DC universe.

The Mad Hatter

01-23-2002, 07:40 PM

Overall, I enjoyed this episode. I thought WW's voice acting is certainly improving... it's still got a way to go before it gets into "excellent" territory, but it's scads better than the pilot. Her reaction to her home being ruined did seem a shade on the flat side, though I wonder if this will just lead to more drama later... she can't afford to feel guilt right now because she's on a timetable to save everyone's lives, but when she's done... man, I wonder how she'll reconcile things with her mother.

But yet again, this series seems to really excel at serial-style action sequences... the larger-than-life battles against the statue and the snake were great, as was the brawl between Supes and WW. I still wish they'd work on the dialogue a bit, but for now, I'm happy.

neilf

01-23-2002, 08:34 PM

Some good insights have been given in this thread. I agree that you can't always get lost in details. The animation for this ep did look good and I thought the coloring was better as well (not too bright like the first few eps). I have been a big critic of Newburn's (how do you spell his name?) voice but I have to admit it's getting better. It's the acting that's NOT getting better. I can't put my finger on it. Is it the script/dialogue they give him, or is it the acting/voice direction from the director? If you guys have been watching the old STAS eps that have been on lately you'll know what I mean. Daly's portrayal of Superman was much more confident and commanding. He still got bashed around pretty good. I think it might be safe to say that his power level wasn't portrayed as that much more than this JL version, but Daly was more confident, sure, and I think he even came across as more intelligent. It all comes down to better scripts and directing. What do you guys think? Remember - Bruce Timm is the visual style behind BTAS and STAS. I don't think he's a writer. You need both to be strong. Comments on my Superman thoughts? :D

gregstones

01-23-2002, 10:03 PM

I think it's a combination of both bad acting AND bad writing that is making this new Superman so dry and dull. This Superman seems horribly meek. Without a writer as one of the producers, the show is definitely suffering. Bruce Timm is a good designer (much of the time), but he doesn't seem to know bad dialog when he hears it. (It is always a bad sign when I'm watching a show, and I realize that I could easily write better dialog than what I'm hearing.)

What did Superman say in Secret Origins when one of those big alien things was ravaging the city? I think it was something to the effect of "I don't know what that thing is, but I'm going to have to stop it."

Duh.

I think this would have been a little better:

Superman (reluctantly and wearily to a stunned civilan standing next to him as the creature approaches): Well, I guess it's up to me to stop that thing, huh?

Civilian: (stares at Superman blankly in stunned silence)

Superman: Right.

Then he flies off to do his thing.

While I'm at it, let me rewrite an exchange betwen Batman and Green Lantern.

Original dialog:

GL: You did it, Batman!
BM: No, WE did it.

Rewritten:

GL: You did it, Batman!
BM: Uh huh.

And that's all it takes. Tweak a few words, and you've got some worthwhile scripts.

This Justice League show is giving me a headache.

The Guard

01-23-2002, 10:56 PM

Upon further viewing, it was NOT raining. It was sunny and nice out. So I can only assume that WW took the Jav-7 to "make an entrance" or to get there faster.

JohnStewart-GL

01-23-2002, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Blade1225
Kickin episode!
Love the battle between Diana and Superman
and oh yeah, i think MM's got his super strength ;)
and the villian is lord Hades
The useage of Batman is amazing! great episode. i like the way every heroe gets used.

Crimson Lightning

01-24-2002, 11:28 AM

hey I'm back and ready to post on Flash! Has anyone ever seen episodes of Freakazoid where he battles Cobra Queen's snake and ties them into knots? I thought it was particulary funny when 2 of my all time favorite characters did something like that. I loved how Flash got some really funny lines in this episode. I mean what more could he ask for...a beach full of amazons and iced mocha for everybody! I was absolutely falling out of my chair laughing my butt off! Anyone notice the strange helicopter noise that came out of Flash when he blew the fire back?? i thought that was interesting. I also liked how he got the treasure and got right down to business. it was great. I can't wait for part two!!!

Also i thouhgt MM's omment about "there's only one thing to do...help you." was really cool for some reason. :) and batman is always one step ahead of everyone...imean who would doubt that he would have a tracking device in the Javelin...he built it didn't he?

I also have one quick ?....when WW lassoed Superman (he beast) how come it didn't show her the truth? i wasn't sure if it had the power to do that, ;)

Peace out, and Iced mocha for ALL!!!

SimonMoon5

01-24-2002, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by The Guard
Upon further viewing, it was NOT raining. It was sunny and nice out. So I can only assume that WW took the Jav-7 to "make an entrance" or to get there faster.

Another thing that bothered me about this is...

Wonder Woman doesn't know when she'll be coming back. So she steals... I mean borrows... the only vehicle that the Justice League has. Does Batman know or care? Didn't he pay for it? Won't the Justice League need it if Wonder Woman doesn't bring it back for a few years? Maybe that's why he put a homing device in it, in case any of the League members go joy-riding in it.

JusticeLeagueLegion

01-24-2002, 09:46 PM

I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if Wonder Woman can be hurt by a bullet, how is it that she could slam the crap out of big blue the way she did? I know she has superstrength, but come on! You're joking! She's not that strong is she!? I had figured she might have been strong enough to hurt Superman...but not punch him all the way across the room.

gregstones

01-24-2002, 10:12 PM

In "World's Finest," Batman jumped about 30 feet in the air over one of those robot things. He also punched Killer Croc and sent him flying about 40 feet through the air in another episode. In other words, the producers get a little carried away sometimes. Wonder Woman is little more than a female Superman in this show, though. I fail to see what makes her special. I also have trouble rationalizing the fact that she flies. Martian Manhunter and Superman are from other planets, so I can deal with that. Hawkgirl has wings. Green Lantern has the ring. But what, exactly, enables Wonder Woman to fly? That's one flyer too many, in my book. She's just Superman with a rope and stars on her shorts.

I miss Linda Carter.

metaphysician

01-24-2002, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion
I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if Wonder Woman can be hurt by a bullet, how is it that she could slam the crap out of big blue the way she did? I know she has superstrength, but come on! You're joking! She's not that strong is she!? I had figured she might have been strong enough to hurt Superman...but not punch him all the way across the room.

She IS as strong as Superman.

As for her protection, she is just as invulnerable as Supes to blunt and non-lethal attacks; she is *merely* very tough against edge and more lethal energy attacks. Meaning a bullet is going to give her a bruise, rather than bouncing off.

Lodoss War Fan

01-24-2002, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by gregstones
In "World's Finest," Batman jumped about 30 feet in the air over one of those robot things. He also punched Killer Croc and sent him flying about 40 feet through the air in another episode. In other words, the producers get a little carried away sometimes. Wonder Woman is little more than a female Superman in this show, though. I fail to see what makes her special. I also have trouble rationalizing the fact that she flies. Martian Manhunter and Superman are from other planets, so I can deal with that. Hawkgirl has wings. Green Lantern has the ring. But what, exactly, enables Wonder Woman to fly? That's one flyer too many, in my book. She's just Superman with a rope and stars on her shorts.

I miss Linda Carter.

WW is suppose to be a demi-goddess sort of , she was a gift from the gods to the amazons that was molded from clay I believe( sorry not to familiar with WW's origin )
Her gifts and abilities are from the gods, so I guess that's makes her pretty special and that's why she's able to fly.

JusticeLeagueLegion

01-24-2002, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by metaphysician

She IS as strong as Superman.

As for her protection, she is just as invulnerable as Supes to blunt and non-lethal attacks; she is *merely* very tough against edge and more lethal energy attacks. Meaning a bullet is going to give her a bruise, rather than bouncing off.

But bullets can't bruise Superman.

Themysciran

01-24-2002, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5

Another thing that bothered me about this is...

Wonder Woman doesn't know when she'll be coming back. So she steals... I mean borrows... the only vehicle that the Justice League has. Does Batman know or care? Didn't he pay for it? Won't the Justice League need it if Wonder Woman doesn't bring it back for a few years? Maybe that's why he put a homing device in it, in case any of the League members go joy-riding in it.

It's possible that the Jav-7 is remote controlled and could return to Batman or whomever should he need it.

Spider

01-24-2002, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by Themysciran

It's possible that the Jav-7 is remote controlled and could return to Batman or whomever should he need it.

I thought Wonder Woman was taking it so she could just mosey on over to Hawkgirl's house for some tea and a chat. After all, they're surrounded by some pretty nice hunks. :)

Batman 80

01-24-2002, 11:51 PM

LOL@ Spider.

JL4Ever

01-25-2002, 08:54 AM

First off Wonder Woman is as strong as Superman. Secondly, she was given the ability to fly by Hermes, the messenger god. Third, I think everyone should just chill about Supes getting thrown around a bit by Wonder Woman or anyone else. Superman is not the be all end all. This show is about a team effort here where everyone's abilities are showcased. In closing, I think a lot of the arguement here is coming about because many people don't know enough about Wonder Woman to know what she can and can't do. I suggest you guys pick up the Wonder Woman comic, it's a good read really.

gregstones

01-25-2002, 09:48 AM

"In closing, I think a lot of the arguement here is coming about because many people don't know enough about Wonder Woman to know what she can and can't do. I suggest you guys pick up the Wonder Woman comic, it's a good read really. "

And there you have one of the problems with Justice League: if you don't read comic books, you end up being left in the dark much of the time. With BTAS and STAS, you got to see how all the heroes became heroes and all the villains became villains. Those shows gave you reasons to care about the characters without having to pick up a comic book. Justice League just dumps its characters in your lap, and then you're on your own.

I think it would have been more interesting if the entire first season had been dedicated to the formation of this Justice League. Each episode could have introduced a new character in an interesting way, and told us everything we need to know about each hero. Either that, or "Justice League" could have been an anthology show, where there was no literal Justice League, but each week there would be a story featuring just one of the heroes.

Oh well. I guess with ten years of superhero animation experience under his belt, I was expecting a little more from Bruce Timm the producer.

JL4Ever

01-25-2002, 11:44 AM

"And there you have one of the problems with Justice League: if you don't read comic books, you end up being left in the dark much of the time. With BTAS and STAS, you got to see how all the heroes became heroes and all the villains became villains. Those shows gave you reasons to care about the characters without having to pick up a comic book. Justice League just dumps its characters in your lap, and then you're on your own."

The problem isn't that people don't read the comics, the problem is that people assume that Superman is the be all and end all without giving the other members the benefit of the doubt. These are all great heroes that are together because they are EQUALS. Yes, reading the comics would further your understanding but it isn't necessary. And we do care about these heroes because each story spotlights their abilities. In "Secret Origins" you didn't care if these heroes got together to save the world? Didn't you feel for Green Lantern in "In Blackest Night" when he was made to feel as if he destroyed an entire world? Wasn't the high family drama in "The Enemy Below" compelling when Aquaman cut off his own hand to save himself and his child? And now we're treated to Wonder Woman's internal conflict after leaving her home. How can't you feel for these characters?

"I think it would have been more interesting if the entire first season had been dedicated to the formation of this Justice League. Each episode could have introduced a new character in an interesting way, and told us everything we need to know about each hero. Either that, or "Justice League" could have been an anthology show, where there was no literal Justice League, but each week there would be a story featuring just one of the heroes."

If they focussed on just one hero it wouldn't be Justice League if each story only spotlights only one character. And I think an entire season dedicated to the formation of the league would last forever without real interesting stuff going on. We don't need every detail to get the story.

Lodoss War Fan

01-25-2002, 11:49 AM

Well.... the origin of WW is this,
Hippolyte molded WW from the Clay of Themyscira ( an Island Paradise hidden in space and time ) .
From the clay The great mother earth Gaea brought WW to life as a gift to the amazons and to bless Hippolyte with a daughter.
The Goddess Artemis was the first to bless WW with the gift of the warrior spirit. Hippolyte then honor the goddess and gave WW the name of Diana , the name of a great and noble warrior.
WW was given Strength and Might from the God Apollo , Speed and Flight from the God Hermes, Beauty from the goddess Aphrodite, Love and protection from the Goddess Hera. Her lasso and bracelets from the Goddess Athena.

I'm into the mythology and magic stories so that's why the character of WW has my attention. I basically know all the JLers origins except for hawkgirl. I know zero about her , mainly due to the fact that she has always been hawkman's otherhalf (wife sidekick, etc)

another thing on why WW took the Javelin 7 is maybe it was a way she can keep communicate with the other JLers.

Themysciran

01-25-2002, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Lodoss War Fan
Well.... the origin of WW is this,
Hippolyte molded WW from the Clay of Themyscira ( an Island Paradise hidden in space and time ) .
From the clay The great mother earth Gaea brought WW to life as a gift to the amazons and to bless Hippolyte with a daughter.
The Goddess Artemis was the first to bless WW with the gift of the warrior spirit. Hippolyte then honor the goddess and gave WW the name of Diana , the name of a great and noble warrior.
WW was given Strength and Might from the God Apollo , Speed and Flight from the God Hermes, Beauty from the goddess Aphrodite, Love and protection from the Goddess Hera. Her lasso and bracelets from the Goddess Athena.

I'm into the mythology and magic stories so that's why the character of WW has my attention. I basically know all the JLers origins except for hawkgirl. I know zero about her , mainly due to the fact that she has always been hawkman's otherhalf (wife sidekick, etc)

another thing on why WW took the Javelin 7 is maybe it was a way she can keep communicate with the other JLers.

Almost... Hippolyte had been feeling the maternal urges from her previous incarnation (since all Amazons were reincarnated from souls of women who had been struck down by Man's ignorance or jealously) to have a child. She was instructed to go to the shore of Themyscira, create a likeness of child from the clay, and then the last soul in the Cavern of Souls would become her daughter.

Powers granted by the Gods: strength and power (Demeter), beauty and a loving heart (Aphrodite), wisdom (Athena), hunting ability and unity with the beasts (Artemis), sisterhood with fire (Hestia) and speed and the power of flight (Hermes).

Her bracelets were won during the Tournament when a decision would be made which Amazon to send into Patriarch's World to fight against Ares, the god of war. The metal was forged from the aegis, Athene's shield, which originated from the hide of Amalthea, the goat-goddess who wet-nursed Zeus.

Her golden lasso was a gift from Artemis and was forged by Hephaestus from one of the Girdles of Gaea. It allows her to have sisterhood with fire through which she discerns the truth.

Apollo and Hera had nothing to do with her powers, Lodoss, sorry :)

gregstones

01-25-2002, 04:43 PM

See, now all that Wonder Woman origin stuff would make for an interesting show. It's too late for Timm to go back and do it now, of course, but maybe 20 years from now when a new generation of animators looks back at "Justice League" the way most people now look at "Superfriends," we'll see something.

Ed Liu

01-25-2002, 07:18 PM

Howdy all,

Sorry for the delay in this response, but I've been serving jury duty.

Originally posted by JL4Ever
I wouldn't call any of the concerns you brought up sloppy writing or just a product of the medium, I call it suspension of disbelief. In every story there will be things that the reader or viewer has to just believe without reading too much into it.

Hey, we're having a (civilized) argument over a show where people wear tights as they fly, run faster than the speed of sound, make stuff melt with their eyes, shoot green power beams out of rings, and breathe underwater. I think I get the concept of "suspension of disbelief." =8^). I should also probably say I liked the episode more than my original posting made it sound.

I'm about to start rambling, so everybody feel free to skip to the next post. The question I pose is this: when is it "suspend your disbelief," and when is it just bad or sloppy writing?

Part of this, I think, is personal preference. What one person can accept is something another finds ridiculous, or simply can't get around. My mother really didn't like Men in Black all that much, because she felt that the whole exercise was rather ridiculous from the initial premise forwards. There are plenty of people who don't read comics because they can't "get" the people in the funny costumes beating each other up (also because they don't realize there's much more to comics than that, but that's another story). There are plenty of people who don't "get" Star Wars, Star Trek, the Matrix, or most of Terry Gilliam's movies for largely the same reasons.

For me, getting the details right is a requirement for my suspension of disbelief. Spotting a continuity gaffe really irks me in a movie, because it forces me to realize that I'm watching something manufactured (as all fiction is). What I didn't like about "Paradise Lost" were, what I considered, admittedly minor details, but they were details that wouldn't have been that hard to get RIGHT. THAT'S really what bugs me the most about the episode, and about JL in general. This is why I have no problem accepting that WW is Diana, Princess of the Amazons, who can fly and deflect just about any incoming projectile with her bracelets, but gripe about where she keeps large-ish crystals in her costume. That's also the kind of detail that, say, the folks who make Cowboy Bebop would have missed.

Personally, I find someone telling me to "suspend your disbelief" only a little bit more palatable than the "it's just a comic/cartoon/video game" argument. ALL fiction requires suspension of disbelief, because none of it is real. GOOD fiction doesn't require a lot of effort on the reader/viewer's part to suspend disbelief. If someone has to tell me to suspend my disbelief, it would seem self-evident to me that the fiction was unable to do that on its own merits.

I'd start into plays, but that goes way too far into a McLuhan-esque digression on the nature of media and my brain hurts already.

To attempt to veer back into relevancy, WW's power level seems more derived from Kingdom Come and the Grant Morrison JLA, where she is on a par with Superman, as is J'onn J'onzz.

-- Ed/Ace

gregstones

01-25-2002, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
What I didn't like about "Paradise Lost" were, what I considered, admittedly minor details, but they were details that wouldn't have been that hard to get RIGHT. THAT'S really what bugs me the most about the episode, and about JL in general.-- Ed/Ace

My feelings exactly. EXACTLY. With just the smallest, subtle changes, JL could be a much stronger show. Up the color contrasts a bit, change the occasional line of dialog, add more personal moments, and you've got something. I just finished watching "World's Finest" a few minutes ago, and part of what made it so great was the character interaction, and the attention to detail. Here's a quick paraphrase:

Janitor to Lois Lane: "Where's Mr. Kent?"
Lois Lane: "Probably off husking corn somewhere."

A little moment like that does SO MUCH. Justice League needs more of those perfect little details.

daedalus222

01-25-2002, 09:38 PM

I said it on my thread JL CRtiques and I will say it again---JL is an inferior show simply because it is too lazy and too arrogant to get it right. We're not talking MAJOR changes here. Get some real writers/ producers like Dini and Radomski. KICK Romano's butt to hire better voice actors and not just friends or out of work schmoes. Up the color contrast (I almost would prefer the dark deco look of Batman as the colors of all of the characters would shine better). Have the Dini's and Burnett's strive for CHARACTER again since Timm's " I don't want them out of costume" mandate is making for some weak and generally uninteresting characters/ dramatic moments.

Seriously, I cringe whenever I read these pro JL comments that say it's great or its' the best. I'm sorry but give me more than that. I want honest criticism and honest praise from honestly interested fans. Being starved for a superhero cartoon is how we end up with the useless nostalgia for trash like Thundercats (no amount of nostalgia in the world can make that show have better voices, animation and stories which were absoultely horrid back then).

BB's Justice League Unlimited 2-parter is so much more superior than any episode of JL this season and that is simply sad.

neilf

01-25-2002, 11:11 PM

daedalus222 and gregstones are finally telling it like it is (I've gotten heat for my early criticism of JL). But the fact remains that you put even the weakest BTAS and STAS eps up against JL and the writing/dialogue is still head and shoulders above JL. JL has no character development. You said it best - bring Dini and co. back. This show has style but no substance. I think it's a huge mistake to not show their civiian identities and more character driven scenes. And you're right on the money about voice talent. BTAS and STAS had some pretty heavy hitters in terms of actors doing voice work. There was real acting taking place. This JL is shaping up to be an improved version of Super Friends - not what we could be getting. It looks great, but you can't ditch the writers and actors that made BTAS and STAS as special as they were. I'm convinced that once people get over the "Oh I'm so glad they did this show I don't dare complain" euphoria and sit down and watch some older BTAS/STAS eps they'll realize - wow they've taken a step backwards and really made this a kiddy show. World's Finest still stands out as a shining example of how sophisticated an animated DC super hero movie can be.

G. Wen

01-26-2002, 12:01 AM

I thought the plot was lacking in many respects. Most of the episode concentrated on fight scenes instead of substance. The majority of the episode was centered around the Superman/WW fight. WW's character could've been explored and developed so much in this episode, but instead, it was replaced w/ 30min. of non-stop action.

RorShaq

01-26-2002, 03:29 AM

I know this has been brought up before, but the fight between Superman and Wonder Woman was just the latest example of these writers displaying their obvious contempt for the greatest superhero of all time. Wonder Woman is not Superman's equal. No members of the Justice League are his equal. This does not negate the necessity for the team, as they all bring different talents to the table. However, to pretend that Superman is not in a different league altogether from the rest ignores 60 years of history. It also defeats the whole purpose of having Superman around to begin with. There are hordes of strong guys who can fly in the DC universe, and any one of them would more than adequately fill the role he's been given in the show thus far-that of a punching bag. Getting back to the fight; there'd be no problem with Wonder Woman knocking him around for a bit. She's an Amazon warrior who was on a serious rampage after all. But come on. You're telling me that Superman couldn't restrain her? They actually showed her restraining him! And the end was the final slap in the face. Superman passing out while Wonder Woman cradles him like a baby!?! What'll they have for us next week? A cliffhanger ending where Superman lies in a coma after being hit by a car?

gregstones

01-26-2002, 06:50 AM

I think JL would benefit from Superman taking more of a leadership role, and perhaps becoming a little arrogant over time. Seeing Superman on the ropes has always bored me on these shows. I'm more entertained when things are easy for him. Part of the appeal of Superman, I think, is that a person can think, "Wow, I wish I could do that!"

Does anyone wish they could get their butt kicked by Wonder Woman?

Instead of a true leader, this Superman just feels like a nice guy who organized a little get together. He's painfully polite.

Zzzzzzz....

Ed Liu

01-26-2002, 11:53 AM

Howdy all,

Originally posted by gregstones
I think JL would benefit from Superman taking more of a leadership role, and perhaps becoming a little arrogant over time.

Taking more of the leadership role, yes. Getting arrogant about it, no (IMO). It seems to me that Superman's real strength in the League is that he is the glue that holds the whole exercise together. If anything, what I'd like to see is an ep where the whole League is counting on Superman for something, and he turns to Batman or WW (being the only two who would understand or be sympathetic) at one point and says something like, "I really don't know how I can live up to their expectations."

The other thing I'd like to see is something like the bit in STAS "Father's Day," where Superman finally decides enough is enough, gets righteously ticked off, and really cuts loose on someone able to take it. I just feel like he's holding back. Perhaps in "War World."

Does anyone wish they could get their butt kicked by Wonder Woman?

HEY, now! Not that kind of board. =8^) Let's not get started on the potentials of the Magic Lasso.

-- Ed/Ace

Heehaw

01-26-2002, 03:28 PM

I finally caught the episode on Saturday morning. I thought the animation was much better than any of the previous episodes, but I had a problem with the CG fire and rain. It was probably cheaper and/or faster to do it that way, but there's nothing cooler than well drawn/animated rain and fire(esp. fire/smoke). The music didn't really bother me this time, and it almost sounded orchestrated in places. I was listening on an old TV, so I'll have to play it on my system later to see how it sounds. I also wasn't too enthusiastic about all the giant stone statue and snake, but it falls in line with the sorcery element, so even though I think it is downright silly and stupid, it isn't that big of a gripe because of it. I noticed a little bit of motion blur in a couple of spots which reminded me of X-Men Evolution(at least the ones I've seen) which isn't a good thing, so I could do without that, too.

Anyway, I'll agree that it is getting better. I taped Static Shock, but haven't had a chance to watch it. Hopefully, it is good.

gregstones

01-26-2002, 10:07 PM

"I taped Static Shock, but haven't had a chance to watch it. Hopefully, it is good. "

It was HORRIBLE. Bad animation, horrific music, and Robin's voice was WAY too young. Oy...

neilf

01-26-2002, 10:43 PM

Bruce Timm needs Paul Dini like Mick Jagger needs Kieth Richards. That's all there is to it. If anyone watched the BTAS and STAS marathon today then you can all plainly see that JL needs writing and directing very badly. Timm needs to get back writers and voice directors (as well as better voice actors) that were involved in the awesome episodes my son and I watched today. My son is six years old and you should have seen him sweating out the outcome of the Batman vs Superman contest on Cartoon Network. Needless to say he was thrilled that his favorite hero won. Watching those episodes really made me realize just how far off JL is from being in the same league (pun intended) as Timm's older stuff. They also used to get some pretty big talent for voice actors. I also think that the way he's going to use Lex Luthor in JL is all wrong. Luthor was portrayed perfectly in STAS and from what I've read it sounds like he's going to be pretty goofy. Can anyone email me and tell me how to put a picture under my name. A lot of you have cool pictures under your names and I haven't figured out how to do it. Thanks :D

daedalus222

01-27-2002, 01:13 AM

Like my man Neilf, I saw the maraton today and although I have not children..I can honestly say that it was both a wonderful and bittersweet moment to be in the presence of such wonderful if not the greatest action animated shows EVER in the history of TV programming. It's simply a shame the pinnacle show of the DC Universe--the Justice League cannot have a better track record of spot on voice actors and acting and incredibly deep stories and drama.

On a related note I picked up a copy of the Justice League Adventures issue 3 today (for those that don't know it's the comicbook counterpart of the TV show..offering new tales done in the animated style). While the 1st two issues were actually WORSE than the show (is that even possible u ask?? oh it is kids.), the 3rd issue was pretty damn good. Not awesome but it absolutely blew apart ANY ep to date. Why?? The plot is actually good for once not hokey (political refugees from the planet Daxam--a sister planet to Superman's Krypton come to Earth and upon discovering they have powers--go about 'fixing' Earth's problems). #2, the characterization is FANTASTIC (Supes finds love, his relationship to Daxam is hinted at, Batman doesn't trust the daxamites and WW even admits a slight bit of personal interest in Supes---their scene is more dramatic and true than anything done on the show to date).

Upon reminiscing on the shows from the Cartoon Network Bats and Supes marathon and upon looking at the comicbook--it amazes me that in an hour per 'story' (2 eps) the JL still feels flatter and more rushed than a 25 page comic book and a 22 minute ep of the classic Bats and Supes.

Please tell me that Timm reads these posts. If he is not careful, he is going to find himself at the bottom of the respect chain for animation. I'd hate to see the man get booed at a comic-con but I fear that will happen if this season doesn't pick up. And WHATEVER the real reason behind Dini and Radomskia nd Burnett's exclusion from JL (I believe it it politics and any ego that Timm has garnered in the 12 years of the show) I hope he realizes he needs these guys and lets go of his pride to bring them aboard and not ride a sinking ship down.....

for all of u action cartoon fans that are just happy JL is on the air...it won't be long fr Spiderman comes on MTV and if they do everything that Bendis is capable of---expect your vaunted JL to go the way of the dodo.

Pick it up Timm....you're killing a franchise.

gregstones

01-27-2002, 05:21 AM

Unfortunately, most of the members of the original Batman team have struck out on their own. Paul Dini is working on a number of his own projects, and probably needed a break from all this superhero stuff. (Between BTAS, STAS, and BB, we're talking about 200 episodes total.) Eric Radomski was working on Spawn for a while. Boyd Kirkland is running X-Men Evolution. I think Frank Paur is involved with X-Men, too. Alan Burnett is working on another WB show. And on and on.

How great would it be if Greg Weisman--the man whose vision brought Gargoyles to the screen--were to produce Justice League? Then we'd see something solid and thoroughly intelligent. Sony has a lot of good people producing their animated programs. Warner Bros. should actively pursue some of these talents. While shows such as Men in Black, Rusty the Boy Robot, Extreme Ghostbusters, and Jackie Chan Adventures don't have the dramatic weight of Batman or Superman, they are very well animated, solidly written, expertly directed, full of humor, and have loads of personality. BTAS/Warner Bros. may have started the revolution in television animation, but other companies have continued the tradition of producing work that both adults and children can enjoy.

If Bruce Timm IS reading any of these posts, he may get pretty insulted by some of what we have said here, and turn his back on our opinions. As an artist, I can tell you that criticism is not welcome in the creative field. (People are usually right, of course, but we don't like admit it at first. Something to keep in mind: the more intelligent the arguments, the better the results. So far, I think we've all been doing a pretty good job.)

Heehaw

01-27-2002, 04:06 PM

All of the criticisms I've read in this thread are constructive in nature. If BT were to get offended by them, then tough. He should take them to heart and produce a better show come second season. Paul Dini will be back, then, so we'll see what happens.

As for the old crew, yes they are all working on other projects, but it is all subpar productions. I finally viewed the Static Shock episode, which Alan Burnett produces, and I literally couldn't believe it. It may be the worst half hour, involving Batman, ever produced. I was mortified. I'll post additional thoughts in the proper thread, though. HBO's Spawn was a mess, and X-Men Evolution, while maybe the highest quality show of the bunch, it is still only average(just like JL). And then there was Kevin Altieri's "Gen 13" feature film. I had the great misfortune to watch it, and it was just too bad to even talk about. How the mighty have fallen.

Timm needs to get back writers and voice directors (as well as better voice actors

Andrea Romano has always been the Batman series' voice director she is is on JL. I also noticed she did the Static Shock episode, unbelievable.

neilf

01-27-2002, 06:18 PM

Separately they're less than stellar. Together they're amazing - kind of like the Rolling Stones analogy I used earlier. The band needs to get back together and forget about these solo projects. Bruce Timm needs to get Paul Dini and friends back in the studio. If not we'll continue to have to suffer through kiddie-like dialogue and poor characterization like Superman the wimp and a corny Green Lantern and Wonder Woman (bad voice acting that would have a tough time getting work on the original Super Friends). If we weren't treated to BTAS and STAS and if this was their first go around with this stuff the criticism would be much different. The standard was set with those shows and have to be the benchmark. They can and hopefully will do better.

Maxie Zeus

01-27-2002, 11:55 PM

I've been following the criticisms of JL with a great deal of interest. I love the insight and intelligence with which they are written. I find myself agreeing with them, and if I still enjoy the show despite the weaknesses, well, about some things I remain a total sucker. JL may be one of them.

Still, there's something in these criticisms that is really starting to rub me the wrong way. My point is a very subtle one and I hope I'm able to make it clearly.

Basically, I don't like all the fingerpointing, and all the direct and invidious comparisons of Bruce Timm and Rich Fogel with Eric Radomski, Paul Dini and Alan Burnett.

This is NOT a matter of courtesy or good manners, I hasten to add. After all, if you say the writing is bad, or the background designs lackluster, or the direction unfocused, then you are saying that the writers, artists and directors (and behind them the producers) have failed--which by implication is to point directly at Bruce Timm and his associates.

Rather, I don't see that the naming of names and the stacking up of reputations in any way advances, explains or justifies the criticisms of the show. If the show had exactly the same attributes that JL in fact does have, but were produced by Burnett, Dini and Radomski, then those criticisms would be just as warranted. Only the names of those linked to the criticisms would be changed; the criticisms would remain the same.

And what does it add to those criticisms to link a name to them? Think about it: Which is the better explanation for the failure of storytelling in "Secret Origins"?

* "The story sucks because the plot rips off 'War of the Worlds' without introducing new invention; the dialogue is cornball; the characters are cardboard; and the climax is unmotivated."

or

* "The story sucks because Rich Fogel wrote it."

See the difference?

Implicit in all the name-dropping is the suggestion that good artistry is a function of some inscrutable magic called "talent," and that the way to make a series good is to put it in close proximity with someone with that magic. So maybe if Paul Dini came in and breathed on the scripts they would somehow get better.

But that's absurd. Rather, if Dini's presence improved JL it would only be if he saw and corrected those deficiencies we've been noting. But why is Dini's presence a necessary condition for those deficiencies being corrected? And although I yield to no one in my admiration for Dini (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/essays/dini.html), I find this touching faith in his genius a bit too occult even for my tastes. Can no one imagine that Dini too might fail?

What is good in the criticisms that I've seen, is that in pointing out the ways and whys that an episode has gone awry the critics not only educate other viewers (like me), they also educate the producers and pay them the compliment of believing that they are capable of learning. At least, that is so until they start implying that Timm's incompetence is incorrigible--that he is simply incapable of doing better.

The difference between analyzing an episode's weaknesses and pointing fingers at its creators is the difference between explaining a mistake and tracing the responsibility for it; it is the difference between conducting a dispassionate investigation of error and conducting a witch hunt. We have had plenty of the former, and we are all the better for it; I am only unhappy to see a lot of the latter creeping in as well.

From the point of a view of a critic reviewing or analyzing a series or episode, the identities of those connected to it are entirely accidental; its merits and demerits are its alone, and not those of the artists that produced it. Only those who are charged with the production of the show, or who have a direct stake in its success or failure, have an interest in seeing blame assigned. That, too, is part of what bothers me. As a viewer I have a lively curiosity about who brings me the show, but it is merely an academic interest. To the protesting that's occurred here recently there's an insistent quality that puzzles me. They seem awfully fixated on Timm.

That JL is not as good as BTAS is our misfortune, and there is nothing wrong with saying so and describing the ways in which it is weaker. But that Timm is not as good a story editor as Dini is his misfortune, and to allude to that fact is only a temptation to cruelty, and in no way advances our understanding of where JL fails.

gregstones

01-28-2002, 07:34 AM

You definitely have a point--all these criticisms could get by well enough without mentioning names. In the end, however, Bruce Timm does control the direction of the show, and people like having someone to blame, so...there you have it. It is his job to know what works and what does not. And the fact of the matter is, when certain people were involved with past series, the shows were noticeably better. There are specific writers, directors, producers, and artists that I have never had faith in, and unfortunately those individuals continue to justify my opinions of their work.

JL4Ever

01-28-2002, 09:10 AM

Ace the Bathound wrote:
I'm about to start rambling, so everybody feel free to skip to the next post. The question I pose is this: when is it "suspend your disbelief," and when is it just bad or sloppy writing?

I write:
Okay, I'll answer this question yet again. As I said earlier, when the story is engaging and you genuinely care for the characters the details play a lesser part. You expessed an interest in seeing how it all turned out so you must have found it engaging. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying this gives the animators the right to give Wonder Woman black hair in one scene and purple in another because that would be careless, but who cares where she put some crystals or why she took the Javelin-7?

Ace the Bathound wrote:
Part of this, I think, is personal preference. What one person can accept is something another finds ridiculous, or simply can't get around. My mother really didn't like Men in Black all that much, because she felt that the whole exercise was rather ridiculous from the initial premise forwards. There are plenty of people who don't read comics because they can't "get" the people in the funny costumes beating each other up (also because they don't realize there's much more to comics than that, but that's another story). There are plenty of people who don't "get" Star Wars, Star Trek, the Matrix, or most of Terry Gilliam's movies for largely the same reasons.

For me, getting the details right is a requirement for my suspension of disbelief.

I write:
If all the details are "right" there would be no need for suspension of disbelief. I brought up an earlier example about how Two-Face's origin was re-written in B:TAS so that he would actually withstand a blast to his whole person but actually only half of his body is scarred. Please, in real life this would never happen and you could consider it sloppy writing for the powers that be to recreate this character in this way but you didn't because most love this episode. So, just enjoy and don't get bogged down in details, esspecially when the details you're so upset about are so trivial.

Ed Liu

01-28-2002, 01:25 PM

Howdy,

Originally posted by JL4Ever
Okay, I'll answer this question yet again. As I said earlier, when the story is engaging and you genuinely care for the characters the details play a lesser part.

I agree with your initial point that a well-told story makes details less important. I'll point to time-travel stories as examples of this. Most of them fail one way or another because you can ALWAYS find the contradiction if you look hard enough. If the story and writing is good enough (e.g., Back to the Future), you're willing to overlook them for the sake of the story.

However, to me, the crystal thing (to pick one example) falls pretty squarely into the same category as changing WW's hair color from scene to scene. It's something that's one way in one place, and different in the next, and that disrupts my sense of getting lost in the fiction.

Picture an alternate scene: Two-Face breaks into a bank, double-barrelled shotgun in hand, telling everybody to get down or he'll shoot. Cut to the skylight, which is promptly broken through by Batman. Cut back to Two-Face, who shouts, "Batman!" and then turns and runs away WITHOUT his gun. Why didn't he shoot at Batman, and where did the gun go? Is that something you can just "let go" in the interest of telling a story? I couldn't.

If all the details are "right" there would be no need for suspension of disbelief.

I more or less agree with this statement, only I'd amend that to say that getting the details right makes suspension of disbelief 1) EASY, and 2) UNCONSCIOUS. Like I said, ALL fiction requires suspension of disbelief. To say there is no need for suspension of disbelief with any work of fiction is, by definition, contradictory. I know for a fact that Batman, Dorothy and Toto, and Prospero from Shakespeare's The Tempest do not exist in any way, shape, or form in the "real" world. To be able to enjoy their stories in any capacity requires at least the minimal suspension of disbelief that these characters could be real.

However, I am confused by your use of the statement in context (clipped for brevity). You seem to be suggesting that fiction can't or shouldn't get the details right, since it's not strictly necessary to do so. Is that what you're saying?

I brought up an earlier example about how Two-Face's origin was re-written in B:TAS so that he would actually withstand a blast to his whole person but actually only half of his body is scarred. Please, in real life this would never happen and you could consider it sloppy writing for the powers that be to recreate this character in this way but you didn't because most love this episode.

Here's where we're probably going to reveal the root of our divergence of opinion. To me, I think Two-Face is an amazingly compelling, interesting character (when written well), but one who, visually, is ridiculous. That amazingly clean line between the "clean" side and the "scarred" side never seemed "right" to me. Matt Wagner or Frank Miller might have made this more palatable to me visually, because I think both of them made that edge more ragged.

That said, the episode you're referring to does actually provide an explanation for why only half of Harvey's face got mangled. If I remember right, Harvey was shown hanging half-over the catwalk before the explosion, so that only half his body caught the full force of the blast. From there, it would be plausible to say that plastic surgeons could repair the damage on the "clean" side, but not on the other.

As an excuse, it's completely, utterly preposterous. It doesn't hold up to any reasonable standard of plausibility in the "real" world at all. The point is that the writers and animators DID include that little detail, which I picked up on, and which allowed my suspension of disbelief to (subconsciously) continue without much disruption.

THAT'S the kind of attention to detail that I'm talking about, which I set as a requirement for me to suspend disbelief. That's also the kind of attention to detail that I'm not spotting in JL, which (IMO) makes the show weaker.

OK, I'm done now, although now I have a serious hankering to go re-watch that Two-Face episode again to make sure I wasn't hallucinating...

-- Ed/Ace

DR. BELCH

01-28-2002, 01:57 PM

BatKid:
My fav. part was when Superman and Diana thought they were fighting monsters, but it was only an illusion to the both of them.
Mine also. My brother was amazed that Wonder Woman could hurt Superman (note the bruise on his face)...which leads me to figure her strength must approximate his (noting also that Darkseid has rendered the Man of Steel bloody, so he can be hurt...but she's not quite as strong as ol' Stoneface, so his skin wasn't broken by her blows).
It's hard for me to judge "Paradise Lost", because I don't know anything about Mr. Faust or his motivations, or what exactly those artifacts do (I can hazard that it's dark magic, at least). One might call Diana's homesickness coming on just when Themiscyra is in it's darkest hour a bit contrived...unless the god(desse)s themselves are calling to her to come home, indirectly (trying not to meddle directly in man's affairs, being mysterious and obtuse, and all that sort of thing).
Re: the snake being tied in knots--their long bodies lend themselves to such outrage--and I bet chopping its head off wouldn't have gotten past the censors.
Note the repeated whiteouts during Supes' and Wondy's punch-fight. Amazon or no, it wouldn't do to depict a man striking a woman, esp. in the face, and esp. America's greatest hero!
Batman is his customarily charming self--sneaking up on and sweating a confession out of a...suspect? (for lack of a better word!) Note how Bats looms over the old fellow--either the professor was a short man, or Batman knows how to fully use shadows to make himself appear a good foot taller than whoever he's addressing.
The look on Wonder Woman's face when J'ohnn spoke sternly to her about her museum rampage--priceless. She looked like a little girl afraid her father will spank her for cutting up--which is really what the lass is, a child in a woman's body. Then the look of relief on her face when she realized she wasn't going to be drummed out of the League, or whatever repercussion she feared--even better.

Mr. Mxyzptlk

01-28-2002, 03:27 PM

The Superman-Wonder Woman battle was definitely the highlight here but I do expect the JL to get sued for all the property damage they cause. Sounds like a subplot to me. Glad to see MM knock that snake into dreamland with one punch. It's always great to see the Bat send shivers up someone's back. I still think Diana should have just slapped the taste out of Felix's mouth a few more times. I think broken bones are a great motivator to make people see things the other person's way. :)

Batman 80

01-28-2002, 04:01 PM

Was it only me, or does anyone else think this episode had a dark atmosphere to it? Especially the music they had playing when Diana was talking to Faust.

gregstones

01-28-2002, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Mxyzptlk
The Superman-Wonder Woman battle was definitely the highlight here but I do expect the JL to get sued for all the property damage they cause. Sounds like a subplot to me.

Back when they were still making new episodes of Superman, I always thought there should be a humorous episode about all the property damage he causes. There would HAVE to be a lot of unhappy citizens in Metropolis. The city would probably go bankrupt trying to repair everything.

Naraht

01-28-2002, 04:16 PM

oh please, you think Metropolis is bad, go live in the town the power rangers protect... Giant Monsters & Robots knocking over Skyscrapers like they were made of cardboard...

though, they do rebuilt quickly...maybe the rangers have an instamatic building putter-upper.....

Failure

01-28-2002, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by gregstones

Back when they were still making new episodes of Superman, I always thought there should be a humorous episode about all the property damage he causes. There would HAVE to be a lot of unhappy citizens in Metropolis. The city would probably go bankrupt trying to repair everything.

There was actually a Powerpuff Girls episode about this very issue. They moved into Cityville and destroyed a bridge to stop a couple crooks, and in turn, the mayor outlawed them from using their powers. It's pretty funny.

BeastBoyWonder

01-28-2002, 06:45 PM

yeah, i love the powerpuff girl parodies...in that one superhero episode, its easy to see that blossom wants to be Wonder Woman and Buttercup wants to be a Spawn/Batmanesque figher.

James Harvey

01-28-2002, 06:49 PM

An all-new episode of Justice League premieres tonight!

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/paradiselost/p1/09.jpg

Episode #10 - Paradise Lost, Part 1
Original Airdate - January 21st, 2002

Wonder Woman returns home, only to find it Themyscira in ruins, Felix Faust being responsible.

Episode #11 - Paradise Lost, Part 2
Original Airdate - January 28th, 2002

Wonder Woman, with help from the Justice League teammates, must attempt to save Themyscira from an evil god.

Comments?

The Guard

01-28-2002, 08:33 PM

Here we go! The conclusion!

Spider

01-28-2002, 08:37 PM

Thanks. I just picked a thread and posted something on the upcoming episode. Nothing very substantive, but something nevertheless. :)

Failure

01-28-2002, 08:40 PM

That was a great episode. Don't forget Bubbles as the bunny. Great stuff.

Karkull

01-28-2002, 10:53 PM

That was...unexpected. I guess I'll spoiler my comments:

No longer the ambassador to Man’s World, this version of Wonder Woman found herself banished from Themiscyra at the end of this episode. She’s in good company, however, as the Justice League seems to be made up more and more of brooding loners (Batman, Green Lantern), stranded parties (Hawkgirl), and those who are the last of their kind (Superman, J’onn J’onzz)—outsiders all. It could be argued that the creative team is deliberately doing this in order to limit the supporting cast members on the show to Snapper Carr; but the Flash’s outrage at Hippolyta’s decision no doubt mirrors what the audience feels as the credits roll.

Is this the end of Felix Faust? It sure looks that way, but his name has been thrown around for Season Two…

That thing about limiting supporting cast members kind of makes sense: imagine Batman's supporting cast multiplied by seven. My isolating all of them you not only force them to rely more on each other, but it also forces the creative team to focus solely on the team members.

Samhaine

01-28-2002, 11:04 PM

Well, I thought this was a great episode. This was probably the best ep animation-wise so far. I found a lot of the sequences to look absolutely gorgeous. Flash had some especially compelling eye candy, specifically the shot of him running straight towards the screen. Great.

I liked the story as well. The flashback sequence wasn't quite what I expected, but it turned out better. Bruce Timm drew some great scenes, especially that last one. Everything seemed to really gel together with the team.

I was pleased with the ending, too. I was not expecting it at all, but it really seemed to fit. This show isn't about the Superfriends, but the Justice League. There's bound to be some not-so-happy endings. They really surprised me with that one.

My love for Flash continues. During the metal ceremony, when he puts the leaf-crown-thing on backwards, I almost died laughing. Until, of course, "She wants me." Hillarious.

Justice League started out a bit iffy. But with eps like The Enemy Below and Paradise Lost, I don't think we really have anything to worry about.

Trent Lane

01-28-2002, 11:05 PM

Wow, what an ending to "Paradise Lost"... that was one that would probably scare the kiddies, I know the skeletons certainly got to me a little. Lord Hades was one mean guy, if the League can last against him, everything else should be pretty easy. The action in this one was great, the voice acting was right on, and the animation was awesome The lightning on Batman, the transformation of Hades into his "real" form, Faust disovling away... Sucks that we have to wait a while for another episode, tho...

JohnCrichton

01-28-2002, 11:11 PM

Best episode of JL I've seen to date!

Batman yelling at everyone to put stuff down and making powerhouses like Superman, Wonder Woman and Jon J'onzz feel guilty was fwickin' classic!

Wing Zero

01-28-2002, 11:15 PM

I love the Flash/Batman interaction! Plus Flash does provide some great comedy relief as the rest of the JL members are a little uh..quiet ;) The episode was great and I loved the ending, very unexpected, and executed well.

Knight

01-28-2002, 11:17 PM

Am i the only one who noticed the reuse of animation from The Superman episode " Speed Demons" of the Flash when they fought Faust.

Livewire

01-28-2002, 11:27 PM

A fantastic episode!! The eps have really improved from such earlier ones like "Secret Origins" and "In Blackest Night." The voice acting is extremely better. If Susan Eisenberg keeps this up, I won't have much left to complain about!The ending was quite a shock and I felt myself sypmathising with Diana. This had some stellar animation, and it looks as if Timm and Co went all out. If this is the last of the 'Hollywood-esque' endings, than they went out with a bang.

neilf

01-28-2002, 11:31 PM

There were some nicely done animation scenes in this ep. Timm did some beautiful work in the flashback scene. The dialogue however, still makes me cringe in some areas. They need to work on how people would speak to each other normally. The older BTAS and STAS should be used as reference to help get the flow, pacing and more natural dialogue down. The Flash especially sounded over the top. There were some nice scenes with Batman as well. Animation wise the only part that looked wierd was when they were all walking down into the ruined city. It looked very "Super Friends" to me with how they were all bunched together and moving. I liked the battle sequence at the end with the dead warriors. Supes still gets his butt kicked way too easily and I'd like to see Martian Manhunter get to cut loose a bit more. All in all the episode was decent. But man - if I gotta hear Wonder Woman say "Hera help me" one more time...ARRGGGHH!

Apache Chief

01-28-2002, 11:34 PM

I thought it was great. The best use of the Flash's powers yet, and the ending reminded me of the end of Aliens. You know...the heroine fighting against firece winds to keep from getting sucked into oblivion...OK, maybe it's just me. And next week is a repeat! This trickle of new eps. is killing me!

Caped Crusader

01-28-2002, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Knight
Am i the only one who noticed the reuse of animation from The Superman episode " Speed Demons" of the Flash when they fought Faust.

I was just about to mention that,Knight,but you beat me to it. :mad: :) They probably did it to save money,but I don't think the S:TAS version mixed well with the JL one.

Knight

01-29-2002, 12:07 AM

Well I enjoyed the episode but man Superman got smacked around by Hades like he was some lil girl. full pimp slap too with the back of his hand. Hades made Superman bounce off the ground it was so hard. He practically laughed at his punchs. Superman s poor showing is starting to get annoying. "sigh" other than that it was pretty cool.

daedalus222

01-29-2002, 12:12 AM

While this is no excuse for the extremely shoddy work done on the 1st few episodes (I still am pissed about the crappy use of a character as cool as Deadshot, the horrendous dialogue and all of the miscues in Supes and Bats personas throughout the first few shows), JL Paradise Lost Part II freaking rocked!

Let us recount cool moments:

*The extremely suggestive dialogue (and good I might add) between Hades and Hera...(he's looking to bone both Hippolyta and Diana....can he really be that evil?)

*The 1st time he fires his flame effect from his mouth was simply well done with shades of those special cool moments n previous WB DC cartoons (who can ever forget that 1st time Supes meets Darkseid and asks " who are u?" and Dini has Darkseid force Superman to his knees with his cool omega force eyes before saying--"THAT's who I am") oh god where have those moments been in the JL????
*The use of Batman...authoritative, Bad ass...for once this guy felt like the most dangerous human around and not like some lampost.
*The battle scenes--whereas I have felt all of the battle scenes before were cliche like out of an X-men episode--this was for once--1st paced--brimming with excitement and cpaturing the never say die attitude that makes up these heroes. Again, this has been missing in the JL and only has been this chaotic in part one of the In Blackest Day with the Hawgirl, Flash, MM, Supes vs. Manhunter battle in the streets.

The only negative is AGAIN the dialogue (although I CAN admit that it was light years better this go around) and Supes portrayal. Would it have been too much to ask that instead of having him knocked around so much like he's the teams' [explentive deleted] that instead we get a scene like this..

Hades: You would dare challenege me?? A God???

Supes flies in and knocks the hell out of Hades and truly surprises him--the two go at it. Trading blows for blows--Hades---grabs Supes throws him down with both hands around Supes' upper body.

Hades: And what name would they give a MAN foolish enough to challenge me.

Superman punches Hades and throws him into the wall.

Supes: They call me SUPERMAN and I'm ending this now. You're going back Hades.

Hades then blasts him away with the fire thing and off we go to the JL battle.

I know that might be a long scene (although we could have lost the resused Flash sequences and some of the zombie slaughter but my god I'm not even a supes fan (Batman has always been my fav) and yet dayam--is it too much to ask them to treat him like the hero he is???

Failure

01-29-2002, 12:17 AM

Wow, I really liked this episode. I have to say I think it's been the best one so far.

First of all, the animation was gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous. The fight scene with Lord Hades was one of the most beautiful animation sequences I've seen Timm do. That skeleton without legs was quite creepy looking as well.

The Batman/Flash interaction was great. Talk about 2 totally opposite personalities.

The ending was quite a surprise as well, I didn't see that coming. I thought maybe there was a chance Hades would take Hippolyta with her, but after he didnt, I thought it was clear sailing.

On the bad side, I thought WW's voice acting was uneven. For the first half of the ep, I thought it was flat, but in the latter parts, I thought she did a bit better. Particularly in the scene when she gets exiled.

Also when those tentacles grabbed MM, why didn't he just phase through it? And where did Flash get that sword from? In the scene right before, I didnt see a sword where he was standing.

Overall though, I was impressed. My favorite episode so far.

Man, Lord Hades is a tough cookie. I don't know a thing about him. How powerful is he? Is he more powerful than Darkseid?

cysurf

01-29-2002, 12:20 AM

Wow every episode have been epics! Timm and Co. are doing great stuff.

Failure

01-29-2002, 12:21 AM

I gotta agree with daedalus & Knight, this would've been a great chance to give Superman a chance to flex his muscles. Even if Hades was more powerful than Supes, Supes still should've gotten in a few licks. Well, at least none of the other JLers seemed to phase Hades.

Sugar Daddy

01-29-2002, 12:56 AM

i havent read through all these posts, but when was the timm flashback thingy, i dont recall it

Terminatah

01-29-2002, 01:07 AM

I like how Martian Manhunter forgets his ability to move through solids when a plant vine grabs him. Also, it seemed kinda silly that the only way they could defeat Hades was to grab the key and pull really hard on it till it came off. I half-expected Diana to start doing the Green Lantern chant while pulling the key out.

I've noticed super speed NEVER comes in handy for Superman. Since the Superman animated series, his main job has gone from wrecking villains to standing around and getting shocked by stuff. The part where he swooped down and saved Flash from the zombies was very out of character. Why wasn't he getting shocked by an energy ball?

Now for the technical aspects. See if this makes sense, there was some bad drawing, but good animation. Basically, these JL characters look unnatural compared to their earlier animated series counterparts, but their movement is smooth and rich. The exact opposite is true of the writing. Stupid lines carried by a good plot.

That's the reaction to this eppy off the top of my head.

-Terminatah

Houman

01-29-2002, 01:08 AM

Paradise Lost was definitely the best so far, and the ending was awesome!

My complaints, though, are:

1. Just because Flash is the comic relief doesn't mean EVERYTHING he says has to be a joke.

2. The animation, especially on WW's face and Supes, was a little spotty at times.

Ruffian

01-29-2002, 01:26 AM

This episode was awesome. The flashback sequence was nice, and that was some history, a good tie in between the amazons and Hades. The animation was also beautiful. The comic relief was also good. I burst out laughing during certain scenes.

I'm beginning to like this portrayal of Wonder Woman now. Before this episode, I wasn't too sure what to make of Wonder Woman. I wouldn't be surprised if she became my favorite JL character (as a big She-Ra fan, would that be of any surprise??). She's definitely one tough cookie. :)

As for the ending...
I loved the battle between Hades and the JL. I particularly loved Womnder Woman's scenes in the battle. She was very well portrayed in terms of how strong she is, strong willed and determined too. ;) The scene where she fights to climb out of the gate before it closed was AWESOME. I loved how she was animated there. It was just tight and gritty, Diana pulling herself out while holding on to her mother, and those were some awesome kicks she gave to Hades! I wasn't so sure she was gonna make it out in time, it was so close. And she did all by herself too! :)

I was very suprised at the happy ending turned sad. When Hippolyta asked Diana to step forward, I thought she may be rewarding Diane with something, perhaps officially appointing her as an ambassador to "man's" world and acknowledging her as Wonder Woman. The exile thing was a total shock, and it brought a tear to my eye. She had done so much to save her mother and her sisters, and in turn she gets booted off the island for bringing men. It sucks for Diana, but it made the episode so emotional and powerful.

DerekPowers

01-29-2002, 02:35 AM

SPOILERS BELOW....YOUVE BEEN WARNED

this really was a great episode. the art was absolutely great (backgrounds, etc). and the ending was AWESOME!! That was some nice action w/ great animation and very tense moments. felix faust's death was great and very unexpected.

plus batman's role was awesome. i love his contribution to the team, it has something really special to it, almost like hes doing them a favor or something.

plus, i loved the return of sexual inuendos and adult themes in dc animation!!!! hades and hippolyta seemed quite intamite, and hades coment to diana about finding out if she was as good as her mother was hinting at something (i dont know if that was the exact line, but something like that).

plus flashe's animation was the best ive seen in the whole series so far. to be honest, when the animated flash in past eps going fast, it never seemed quite right, it didnt make me go wow. but in todays ep, i was all about the wow. it was great. Overall great episode.

i only had a few gripes. first, it seemed diana's exhile was abit abrupt. i hope this doesnt mean that we wont be seeing themescyra for a while.

second, it seemed superman was way too affected by faust's magic, way too much. did you see felix through a little pink energy ball at supes, and he gets knocked out the scene and doesnt return to fighting for a while. geez. and batman's dodging these things left and right, and flash is dodging them even more, and when they explode behind them they dont effect the person whose a few feet infront of them, so how powerful could they be? theyre not like huge bombs.

now, isnt superman supose to be almost as fast as the flash (ehm, speed demons anyone), and not only cant he dodge anything to save his life, but when it hits him it takes him down, no problemo. not good.

but ofcourse my grips are always meant in constructive ways, i really loved this episode. id definately say that the final battle scene was the best action/battle sequence of the series, hands down. just my opinion though. peace.

Hal Jordan

01-29-2002, 03:10 AM

JL is turning out to be really GOOD. This episode stood out as well.

Negs: I have to agree with others-- when will they let Superman BE Superman? Ok - his style (as said by Luthor many times in many incarnations) his basically break through a wall and head on attack. I appreciate that they don't want him to have the power to change Earth's orbit - but lets see him like we all want to. (How many times do I have to yell at the screen, "BLAST that guy with your heat vision!" or "He got knocked down, AGAIN?!")

One other minor gripe: THIS is the BIG SECRET key to HADES? Three pieces of stone -- and the "lock" look liked you could put anything in there and turn it. They never explained WHY this key ALONE could turn that lock. Was it magical? Couldn't tell.

On the positive side: with so many characters, they seem to be balancing what we get to see pretty well. Batman gets to be the detective - his specialty, etc.

Overall - I'm glad we've got this to watch!

Tim Drake

01-29-2002, 03:27 AM

I absolutely loved this episode! Spectacular animation, an original soundtrack, and the best voice acting for Wonder Woman I've seen yet. Also we finally an episode where Batman gets some decent screen time. All the characters were balanced and no character was portrayed too weak or strong. And the final scene was almost as touching as Apokolips now!! Almost. However, why the heck did they use stock footage for Flash??? There was a brief shot taken from the STAS episode Speed Demons.

Naraht

01-29-2002, 07:43 AM

ok...a few things on Superman...

He's VERY weak to Magic..and given what I've seen of S:TAS..he hasn't had much experience with it...

As to why he doesn't dodge? I dunno..would be as interesting if he did...bleh.

The ep was ok...the exile wasn't a total shock..I mean, it's mirroring the comics (I think) Besides, I saw it as a way for Wonder Woman to keep doing what she's doing...
Cause at the end of the episode..it was exile, or WW has to stay..that's how it was shaping up. Watch it again, and (hopefully) you'll see what I mean...

WW is very homesick, feels she let down her people..If she wasn't booted out the door, I don't think she'd have left.

I'm hoping, they're planning a BIG Flash ep, where we get to see the man behind the Flash..so all this Bafoonery is a front for a scared & troubled young man.

also...I love the guy...But we're seeing ALOT of Batman...considering he isn't even a FULL member of the JL...I mean, we love him...but he's had as much air time episode wise as Hawk Girl, Flash, GL, WW...

=\

Karkull

01-29-2002, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by daedalus222
[BThe only negative is AGAIN the dialogue (although I CAN admit that it was light years better this go around) and Supes portrayal. Would it have been too much to ask that instead of having him knocked around so much like he's the teams' ***** that instead we get a scene like this..

Hades: You would dare challenege me?? A God???

Supes flies in and knocks the hell out of Hades and truly surprises him--the two go at it. Trading blows for blows--Hades---grabs Supes throws him down with both hands around Supes' upper body.

Hades: And what name would they give a MAN foolish enough to challenge me.

Superman punches Hades and throws him into the wall.

Supes: They call me SUPERMAN and I'm ending this now. You're going back Hades.

Hades then blasts him away with the fire thing and off we go to the JL battle.

I know that might be a long scene (although we could have lost the resused Flash sequences and some of the zombie slaughter but my god I'm not even a supes fan (Batman has always been my fav) and yet dayam--is it too much to ask them to treat him like the hero he is??? [/B]

Heh. When you're right, you're right. I'm starting to tire of Superman getting smacked around too.

Bird Boy

01-29-2002, 09:22 AM

yow..that was, by far, my favorite JL ep to date. I don't know why..it was just very powerful..and I wuved it.. :)

-BB

Spider

01-29-2002, 09:31 AM

I don't know where to begin with Paradise Lost, Part 2. I thought it was awesome, and yet I have a few criticisms as well. :)

The ending--man, this reminded me (although perhaps a bit more intensely) of Lt. Worf's discommendation (which was eventually resolved). I would love to see Wonder Woman allowed back to her home one day, although I'm not sure if this resolution *can* happen, as I don't know the history of her homeland and the mythology that accompanies the character very well. Could anyone suggest *how* it could happen?

I absolutely *loved* Wonder Woman's "What did you ever see in him?" line--hysterical! And I thought she delivered it well. Then again, I'm one of those that loves her voice as is. She is IMO an excellent character, and one that I'm liking more and more each episode.

When Wonder Woman and her mother were being pulled in by Hades, did anyone feel that the other JL heroes ought to have been able to have come to their rescue? I felt that there was way too much time lag here. I couldn't in my mind justify that JJ, Superman, Batman, and the Flash were all indisposed for *that* long. Or am I missing something here?

Stock footage(?) is okay by me, although I don't think I've ever seen it in animation. Can anyone verify for me if the flashback was stock footage? Besides the budgetary concerns, I've often liked seeing flashbacks so long as they are not overdone or used solely as 'fillers.'

With regard to the invoking of Hera et al., I don't mind that. IMO it lends credence to who the character of Wonder Woman is, and in whom she puts her faith.

I loved the similarities to Jason and the Argonauts (in both Parts 1 and 2). In Part 1, the Titan 'Talos' looked like he was making a cameo. I was fully expecting Wonder Woman to pull out the plug behind his heel instead of smashing the column against his left knee! And the rising up of the skeleton-like creatures reminded me very much of that final 'Dies irae' accompanied scene in JATA. Very nicely done. :)

I liked what Naraht said about the Flash-- it would be great to see the writers delve into this 'scared and troubled young man' a bit. It has the potential to be very substantive, I think. And whomever said that every line ought not to be comical was IMO correct. (Of course, not every line is, but I think it could be toned down a bit.)

During the battle against Hades, I was really hoping that the Green Lantern and Hawkgirl would make an appearance. But I understand and accept that not all characters can be in every episode.

Kal-el

01-29-2002, 10:14 AM

***Spoilers Possible You have been warned!!!***
3

2

1

Here goes...
Okay, "PL II" was a good episode with nice animation and action sequences, but overall it left me still wanting. WW's voice acting was much better this ep. Her action sequences were very good...I especially liked how she fought through the shock (taking notes Supes?) when she grabbed the key and consequently destroyed it...that was really a cool scene. The interaction with Lord Hades was not childish in any way, which was refreshing.
Bad parts. Superman the slow piniata is REALLY getting to me. Was he taking cigarette breaks during the battle? Lost the super-speed? Heat vision for the vine things? Where the heck was he? Hades' backhand sent him seriously flying...Faust energy bolt knocks him across the room...sounds like a typical JL Superman episode. As daedalus222 pointed out, there was potential for a very good sequence between Supes and Lord Hades, but instead Supes basically got slapped across the cave. Argh!
Flash was cracking me up this ep. The scene when he was running around Hades punching him and having no effect on him whatsoever was hilarious!
Overall, it was a decent ep. I was expecting more and was somewhat let down. I have grown tired of the way Superman is portrayed in JL. His abilities are lacking and his dialogue is worse. He's not being done justice.

The Guard

01-29-2002, 10:16 AM

Thoughts:

BATMAN:
I love how he's portrayed.

"DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING!"

It's pretty obvious that the Justice League respects Batman's opinion.

Also, is it me, or have his batarang tosses been animated really well in JL? Love how he used different kinds, including the M.I.R.V batarang.

I loved it when he sucker-punched Faust.

WONDER WOMAN:
Great voice work. Great animation.

SUPERMAN:

I wasn't too disappointed. No corny lines, and he didn't get smacked around quite as much as some people think. He IS supposed to be vulnerable to magic. It's ok for Superman to get knocked around by a God. He did get some punches in.

J'ONN

Very cool action sequences. I love the way he uses his phasing powers and then just nonchalantly punches one warrior.

FLASH:

He jokes just a little too much. But some of the things he said were pretty funny.

"I still have the snake-headed doohicky."

I like the way they bounce J'onn and Flash off each other in Paradise Lost.

FAUST:

Once again, great voice work, cool spells, and a very Faust-like end for him. Although I suspect he isn't gone for good.

HADES

I liked the voice. Not keen on the design, but he was a good threat. Some of the things he said were pretty chilling.

OVERALL:

Great episode. Best so far. Great animation, music, and voice work. The ending was not shocking for me, because Wonder Woman was recently exhiled in the comics. But it was still very well done.

Blight

01-29-2002, 10:43 AM

Another great JL episode! The animation, voicework, music and action were all very well done.

I love how Batman was portrayed in this episode! He was the detective he should be (love when he yelled at Flash!). Superman was his usual whimpy self, Flash was histerical, Martian Manhunter was just.........cool, and Wonder Woman was just as strong (in both voicework and characterisation) as in part 1.

Loved the final action sequence, but it seemed to me those skeleton warriors were rip-offs of the mummy soldiers from "The Mummy" and "The Mummy Returns".

Felix Faust was just as sinister as in the first part, but what's bothering me is how he could possibly return in season 2 when he crumpled into dust. Well, these writers do have ways of ressurecting villians (with or without explanations :rolleyes: ).

I was very surprised when Diana was exhiled. Some repayment that was for saving them all!

Overall, this was a great episode, and my second favorite (my first favorite was "The Enemy Bellow" part 2")!

See ya!
Blight

kid_flash

01-29-2002, 11:27 AM

SPOILERS!!! (but isn't that what this thread's all about :D )

Wow. I mean....wow. The animation ALONE was worth it! Wow, Koko really came through on this one. Then you have a killer story with a creepy, mystical edge. And people died onscreen (or did they?), something you don't see often. Really looking forward to the possible return of Faust.

And just when you think you have a happy ending, Diana's voted off the island! WOW!

Amazing, amazing episode.

Batman 80

01-29-2002, 11:47 AM

This episode was very well done. The part that got was the 3 human heads that were hanging on the wall, that was sick. I loved it when Superman said Dear Lord!. I can't wait to see more new episodes.

SimonMoon5

01-29-2002, 11:55 AM

Spoilers (duh).

Here are my gripes:

(1) Really bad use of mythology. Just thinking about it =ouch= makes my head hurt =ouch=. I know, I know, they had to rewrite mythology in order to make Hades into the bad guy... but that just rang false to me, perhaps because in actual mythology Hades isn't that bad a guy (if you overlook the details of his marriage). I think Ares (the deity that WW has fought most often in her current comics incarnation) would've been a better choice. Perhaps they thought using Ares would've been too Xena-like? If so, tough! WW was around long before Xena.

(2) Fighting Faust. Again, the League just sends one member at a time up against him. If they had all just rushed him and started punching him, he wouldn't've had the chance to do very much.

(3) I also have a hard time reconciling Faust's use of GrecoRoman magic, considering his much more impressive Lovecraftian roots in the comics. Also, the generic nature of the 3 key items was disappointing compared to the three items (Silver Wheel, Red Jar, and Green Bell) he used in the comics.

(4) The ending (ie, how they beat Hades). Well, that just came out of nowhere. Whatever happened to heroes deducing how to beat the enemy or at least using their own powers to defeat the enemy? Hippolyta just suddenly decides that this one action is the only chance to beat Hades... and as it turns out, she's probably right.

What I was expecting was a typical Silver Age comic book trick, like substituting a fake version of one of the key's components so that [insert something unexpected] happens. For example, perhaps with a fake key, Hades can't stay here too long and ends up grabbing Faust and taking him back with him to, uh, Hades.

Instead, the League's plan was to give him the key, let him turn one out of dozens of the amazons back to flesh, and then beat him up... except that they forget to follow through on the "beat him up" part of the plan.

(5) Hades' power levels. If they can make Hades that cool, why not Superman? Why can't attacks just bounce harmlessly off of Superman?

Maxie Zeus

01-29-2002, 12:12 PM

I don't believe in critiquing two part episodes separately, so I've held off on making judgements about part I without seeing part II. Here's the whole shebang:

No No No. This is exactly the kind of episode that could drive me away from JL. All the action and artistry in the world isn't going to disguise the mechanical and lifeless story-telling of "Paradise Lost."

At the very top we are given a conflict: Diana vs. Hippolyta. Diana left Themyscira without her mother's permission. We didn't see the actual break between them in "Secret Origins" (it was entirely glossed over), and we have seen none of the consequences of Diana's rebellion. So everything in their relationship turns on their possible reconciliation. That's what drives Diana back to Themyscira at the beginning of "Paradise Lost." And so I was watching and thinking (with eager anticipation), What's going to happen when these two Amazons lock horns? Are they going to be reconciled, and if so how? What lessons will each learn?

And it is entirely short-circuited by Faust. The island is in ruins and Hipppolyta turned to stone, so that even in the midst of the crisis we are cheated of seeing them interact. Instead, that initial character-driven story evaporates to be replaced by the old "let's have the heroes run an obstacle course" plot. Say what you will about the coolness or lameness of the fights leading up to Hades final banishment, because that's all they are: A sequence of fights that challenge the heroes only physically, not morally or psychologically. From the moment Faust introduces himself to the moment the doors to the underworld clang shut, the story treads water.

And then we come to the conclusion. From the moment Diana found the island a wreck I was guessing it would end with Hippolyta simply forgiving Diana because, of course, Diana saved the island and her JL duties are just an extension to the world at large of her love and loyalty to Themyscira. So I'll give that final exile twist this much credit: It was a surprise. But then, it would have been a surprise if a garbage truck had run over Hippolyta at the end. Surprise endings work only if there is still some motivation to them.

Well, there was something like a motivation, the old Amazonian ban on bringing men to the island. But it is a motivation that works only by making Hippolyta come off like a royal witch-with-a-capital-"B." Of course the JL's feelings are supposed to mirror the feelings of the audience. But that begs the question, Why do the creators want the audience to leave with the feeling that a massive injustice has been perpetrated?

There's a fairly simple way of leaving the ending intact while draining it of the poison. Let Hippolyta condemn Diana to an exile for an unspecified period of time, "to fight evil and uphold justice in the outer world until the stain of your disobedience at home has been washed away." That upholds the law of Themyscira while giving Diana exactly what she wants: permission (disguised as a commandment) to leave Themyscira and join the JL. Hippolyta would show wisdom, cunning and mercy by (with a wink) throwing Diana into the briar patch. It would also have had the virtue of rounding off that conflict between mother and daughter that was dropped early in part I.

Yes, there is an "exile" theme going on here: To save Themyscira Diana had to do the one thing that might get her banned. That means the story's climax and resolution only makes sense if the story is about Diana's decision to make that sacrifice. But it is never hinted that she is weighing that choice. Yeah, yeah, she passingly mentions that men are forbidden from setting foot on Themyscira, but that contains no hint of what the consequences are for the men, or for those that bring them. It's a sign of poor construction when the ending sends you groping back through the plot to try and figure out just what the hell the story was supposed to be about such that it leads to that conclusion.

I haven't touched on the major failings of continuity and intelligence shown by the characters, because SimonMoon5 does it so well. Everything said in the post above has my fervent endorsement.

Yes, the fight scenes were diverting. Yes, there were some good lines. (None of them belonged to Flash, though. And he and J'onn have absolutely no chemistry together. Keep him paired up with GL.) But these only alleviate, not transcend or cure, the grinding tedium of the basic story.

JohnStewart-GL

01-29-2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by daedalus222
While this is no excuse for the extremely shoddy work done on the 1st few episodes (I still am pissed about the crappy use of a character as cool as Deadshot, the horrendous dialogue and all of the miscues in Supes and Bats personas throughout the first few shows), JL Paradise Lost Part II freaking rocked!

Let us recount cool moments:

*The extremely suggestive dialogue (and good I might add) between Hades and Hera...(he's looking to bone both Hippolyta and Diana....can he really be that evil?)

*The 1st time he fires his flame effect from his mouth was simply well done with shades of those special cool moments n previous WB DC cartoons (who can ever forget that 1st time Supes meets Darkseid and asks " who are u?" and Dini has Darkseid force Superman to his knees with his cool omega force eyes before saying--"THAT's who I am") oh god where have those moments been in the JL????
great episode. i really enjoyed it. the fight dcene rocked. i like wen supes blast some of the skeletons and picks up flash.
But damn how stong is Hades. He slapped Supes like he was a mere human. Even Jonn and Superman could barely harm him.
*The use of Batman...authoritative, Bad ass...for once this guy felt like the most dangerous human around and not like some lampost.
*The battle scenes--whereas I have felt all of the battle scenes before were cliche like out of an X-men episode--this was for once--1st paced--brimming with excitement and cpaturing the never say die attitude that makes up these heroes. Again, this has been missing in the JL and only has been this chaotic in part one of the In Blackest Day with the Hawgirl, Flash, MM, Supes vs. Manhunter battle in the streets.

The only negative is AGAIN the dialogue (although I CAN admit that it was light years better this go around) and Supes portrayal. Would it have been too much to ask that instead of having him knocked around so much like he's the teams' ***** that instead we get a scene like this..

Hades: You would dare challenege me?? A God???

Supes flies in and knocks the hell out of Hades and truly surprises him--the two go at it. Trading blows for blows--Hades---grabs Supes throws him down with both hands around Supes' upper body.

Hades: And what name would they give a MAN foolish enough to challenge me.

Superman punches Hades and throws him into the wall.

Supes: They call me SUPERMAN and I'm ending this now. You're going back Hades.

Hades then blasts him away with the fire thing and off we go to the JL battle.

I know that might be a long scene (although we could have lost the resused Flash sequences and some of the zombie slaughter but my god I'm not even a supes fan (Batman has always been my fav) and yet dayam--is it too much to ask them to treat him like the hero he is???

Samhaine

01-29-2002, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
(5) Hades' power levels. If they can make Hades that cool, why not Superman? Why can't attacks just bounce harmlessly off of Superman?
Well, I'm assuming that it's because Hades is a GOD and Superman is just a, well, man. Animated Supes has never been the ultra-powerful uber-god he was/is again in the comics, and if he was, well, there'd be no point in having 6 other people there. He could just beat everyone without breaking a sweat. And really, what's entertaining about that?

Spider

01-29-2002, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
Spoilers (duh).

Here are my gripes:

(1) Really bad use of mythology.

SimonMoon5,

I guess I didn't know that. I haven't studied mythology very much. But I think I understand somewhat what you're trying to say. It's kind of like watching a film about Rome ca. 100-250 A.D. or thereabouts, and hearing harmonic progressions, instrumentation, and polyphony that (as far as the evidence is concerned) could not possibly have existed at the time. When it comes to music, I'm a stickler for those kinds of things. My not knowing about the bad use of mythology is a case whereby my ignorance is bliss. :)

JohnStewart-GL

01-29-2002, 01:46 PM

Great ep!!!!!!
IL OVED IT. I like how evil hades is portrayed as.
I also like his sexual attraction to Hippolyta.

Flash:Really funny in this ep."She wants me"
Superman:Good leader. But dang Hades mst be strong to slape Superman who is almost godlike.

Karkull

01-29-2002, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
But that begs the question, Why do the creators want the audience to leave with the feeling that a massive injustice has been perpetrated?

This was possibly done in order to establish that Diana lives by her honor, no questions asked. It's the same reason why she continued helping Faust instead of just calling the League in to kick his butt. Maybe the writers are making Wonder Woman the "Worf" of Justice League--the righteous character who is, nonetheless, ostracized by her culture based on a technicality.

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
I also have a hard time reconciling Faust's use of GrecoRoman magic, considering his much more impressive Lovecraftian roots in the comics. Also, the generic nature of the 3 key items was disappointing compared to the three items (Silver Wheel, Red Jar, and Green Bell) he used in the comics.

I noticed that too, but can you really boil down his magik's origins to Greece and Italy? I got the impression that he's borrowed from a number of different backgrounds. Besides, his costume looks very Egyptian: whenever I look at Faust I'm reminded of Nyarlathotep's description from H.P. Lovecraft's Nyarlathotep, so there still is still a connection to his roots.

I was expecting him to conjure up demons to fight for him, though.

JckOfSpds

01-29-2002, 03:44 PM

Ok that episode was pretty good. The only thing I thought was cheesey was the stock footage from "Speed Demons" when the Flash was racing towards Felix Faust. The voice work certainly has gotten better, and both the guest voices (Robert Englund and John Rhys-Davies) did excellent work.

As for the people complaining about Superman getting knocked around, let's bear in mind his invulnerability is not very good at all versus magical attacks. That fact has always been true, both in the comics and on televisionn series. I mean, think back to his battle with Karkul in S: TAS and how easily Karkul wounded the Man of Steel.

Loved the ending. And once again the Flash sets the comedic tone with great lines. His interchange with the Martian Manhunter as the duo retrieves their part of relic is priceless.

Cassandra

01-29-2002, 05:46 PM

I have to say, I liked this ep. I was sure it would be dumb, or boring (anything involving WW's history in the comics causes me to abruptly sink into a coma) but this was the best handling of WW's "hometown" that I've ever seen. Amazingly, I wasn't irritated by her mother, nor did the other amazons cause me to doze off. What's more, before this two-parter I would have said she was my least favorite charecter in the show- after seeing Paradise she's right up there with Bats and Supes.

And, you know, SHE can actually put up a FIGHT before keeling over (unlike our much-dissed boy in blue).

To be fair, though, in the comics, Superman is totally weak to magic-in fact he's supposed to be as vulnerable to it as a normal human without superpowers. If somebody comes at him with a magic sword, the sword'll cut him as easily as it'll cut Batman- if he fails to get out of the way.

ZorBrak

01-29-2002, 06:12 PM

AWESOME, episode was good on all fronts basically, animation and voice wise it seems JL has now reached the quality of the old shows. It was also the best arc so far for sure, Batman seemed to actually do the dectective work this time instead of saving everyone, which was starting to annoy even me, and as you may or may not know bats is my favorite hero of all time. Superman's weakness still bugs me, I always thought he was a bit of a dork, but I want to see him kicking ass as he is supposed to, instead of getting his kicked, weak to magic or not, wonder woman kicked his ass and that's not right, he's Superman for crying out loud! I want to see my uhh...5th favorite hero represented correctly, having punches that at least make Hades say ouch, geez, other than the superman deal I thought the 2 parter was EXCELLENT.

Bud 'n Lou

01-29-2002, 06:48 PM

I agree with some of the points made already.
Ya know, I don't know much about the character Felix Faust, or what his limitations are, but I would've liked it if he used his magic more creatively, rather than just firing energy blasts, or whatever they were.
I liked the final fight, though. It was very exciting, and Hades seemed to be a very menacing villain. Although, I did notice that Superman was noticeably absent for a large chunk of it. And I also noticed the re-used animation of the Flash, especially since it seemed like they didn't even bother re-coloring it to match Flash's new design. Also...they used the original BG from the STAS ep too. I assume they stuck it in at the last minute to help make the scene make more sense somehow.
And I wish Wonder Woman would have had more of a physical confrontation with Hades. But overall, I think this episode was far superior to part one.
I'm glad someone else mentioned the key thing, since it's one of my biggest gripes with the episode. I too was reminded of the end of "In Blackest Night," when Green Lantern defeated the head Manhunter in a strange, confusing, illogical, and ultimately, unsatisfying way. If the key is destroyed, wouldn't you get the OPPOSITE effect of what happened? Wouldn't the gate have to remain open, since it can no longer be locked?
What else...? Oh, the Flash. I agree that he seemed more useful in this episode than usual, but his character is so one-dimensional. All he does is act like a buffoon and try pitifully to pick up every female he encounters. I find myself scoffing whenever he opens his mouth.
Ya know, I really hate to just be complaining, but...I think there's a lot to complain about. And hopefully, the creators will make use of the negative feedback they get to work toward making a better show. I'm only complaining because I believe this show can be great, and maybe those guys on the show's creative team that ghost on these boards will take notice (by the way, you know I love you guys, right? :0) ). I just think this show has so much potential, but never truely achieves it, in ALL aspects. The plots so far have been intriguing, but like Maxie said, the execution is off. The writing needs to get better. Not just in the dialogue department, but also just the overall quality of storytelling. There's just a lot that's missing. I don't really have a feel for the characters, and as a result, I don't care what happens to them. They aren't being developed as well as they should. And yes, I know the writers have seven characters to deal with, AND at the same time tell an exciting, action-packed story. But so what? It's not impossible to balance the two. In fact, I'm sure most of the many creative people at this message board could accomplish the task.
Of course I'll continue to watch the show, because I loved Justice League's predecessors, and I'm a loyal fan. And I hope that if I stick around long enough, the show will get better. But I really feel that as of now, the show could stand a lot of improvement.

By the way, did anyone else notice the writer's name? Sounds like a pseudonym to me (Joe Kuhr).

FLIPMODE

01-29-2002, 07:08 PM

I think this was the Best Ep of JL, and Arc.

COME ON!! Beef Supes up allready. Theres this part at the End where Supes, has basically dissapeared...Or hid under a rock in fear. If ANYONE could have at least HELPED WW and here mom from being Sucked through those doors it should have been Supes. But they literally Left Supes out of that scene, Because this was a WW moment. I can understand that, but I still would have thought she was the star of the episode, even if Supes helped them.

Also it's getting Silly, Supes seems to be at the same level of streangth as Aquaman, just with added Flight. I KNOW at the start of the show, they were trying to make a point, why there IS a JL, if Supes exists. But they're going to Far. Even at Full Power, Superman CAN NOT do everything, the JLA would Still beat HIM at full strength, so they need not showcase how WEAK and Vulnerable he is any longer. Actually I dont think he'll get Stronger until Next Seaseon, which is sad. Come on, he cant pick up one man, and a Fire truck?? Puh lease ANY form of Superman would be able to do that, even Clark on Smallville.

Batman was pretty good. I Liked the fact that they showed him in combat with the rest. Finally. Those exploding Batarangs were a surprise. I just hope he has at least one episode to himself where he kicks some serious ass.

Also I keep hearing People say, "Batman's not Really part of the Team". I'd just like to remind those, that as far as how it's viewed by the characters in the show, it's very clear that Batman has not entirley committed full time for the JL team, he said so.

BUT, that does not mean, he's not going to be in nearly Every episode WE see, playing a Very important role. Why? Because as far as the audience (us) is concerened, Batman IS an official member. You dont go into an episode of JL thinking you wont see Batman, he's a perminent fixture of the Team. What Batman said about, "helping when he can", is important dialogue that needed to be said for the show's purpose, of explaining how Batman set's his priorities. Because everyone knows he's all Gotham all the Time. Unlike Supes and the rest, who can physically multitask, and commute beetter due to there powers.

But the way I see it, nearly every episode we see will be the times Batman had time to participate. And we've allready seen him turn them down in the GL episode. The type of character who is not official, but may play a role is basically Aquaman.

The Animation was the BEST ever. I was really impressed by those scenes with Flash. FINALLY they give him some great animation for his speed. Now all they have to do is use his Vibration in battle, then I'll be happier. Until now, the show's been down playing Flash's Fighting spirit. His speed allowes him to kick major ass, and that's when I like him the most. The flurries of punches at near light speed.

The Best Ep!!

neilf

01-29-2002, 07:40 PM

Superman's character portrayal is probably what's making it hard for me to enjoy JL. The dialogue is really rough but I could overlook some of that if the characterization was on point. Everything we knew about Superman from STAS is out the window. He wasn't all powerful then, but he sure wasn't the wimp they're making him out to be now. He's totally out of character from STAS. Think about it, if anything he's a little older and wiser since STAS and should display that in his personality. Instead he's more of a "gee whiz" unassertive weakling. And I don't think they make him very intelligent. Remember, in STAS he did quite a bit of problem solving with his mind - not just his powers. It is getting very tedious to see him being treated this way. I'd rather he not be in the ep at all. He could be off on some other adventure. That's a good reason to have a league - he can't be everywhere at once. It sure would be better than watching them treat him so poorly.

The Mad Hatter

01-29-2002, 07:58 PM

I'll have to watch it again... I was a bit distracted while it was on. But it did have some truly awesome action sequences, and the undead army seemed like a tribute to Harryhousen (you know, the stop-motion whiz who did Clash of the Titans). It felt like a much better episode than the first part, which seemed to just be an excuse for some relic hunting. I'll agree with Maxie that part one abandoned what could have been some great intrigue between Diana and her mother... but I'll have to watch it again to see how I really feel about the ending. Part of me liked it, part of me didn't. Maxie's comment about having her exile Diana "to continue fighting for justice" would have made sense... or would it have felt like a cop-out to take some of the sting off a sad ending? Not sure. And yup, Hades was vastly different than the kindly romantic twit of yore, but at least he made an imposing and memorable villian here.

Sugar Daddy

01-29-2002, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by The Guard

Also, is it me, or have his batarang tosses been animated really well in JL? Love how he used different kinds, including the M.I.R.V batarang.

boy, this is inciting a lot of commentary. 2 questions: 1- what does mirv mean? and 2-How did u all know the Flash thing was stock footage?

Maxie Zeus

01-29-2002, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou
By the way, did anyone else notice the writer's name? Sounds like a pseudonym to me (Joe Kuhr).

Well, I googled him and came up with this brief filmography. (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/PersonDetail/personid-31725) It's either his real name or the professional name he writes under.

Maxie Zeus

01-29-2002, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Karkull
This was possibly done in order to establish that Diana lives by her honor, no questions asked. It's the same reason why she continued helping Faust instead of just calling the League in to kick his butt. Maybe the writers are making Wonder Woman the "Worf" of Justice League--the righteous character who is, nonetheless, ostracized by her culture based on a technicality.

I can understand that, but my point is somewhat different. Granted that Diana is portrayed as a Worf-like character willing to pay a price for her ideals: But why must this point be made in a way that sharply diminishes (or even eliminates) our respect for Hippolyta and Themyscira? It is one thing to say that Diana has a keen sense of justice; it is another to illustrate that by making her mother look bad.

Sandro

01-29-2002, 08:43 PM

The episode was awesome, just like every other episode. :) Wonder Woman was awesome in both parts. Hades looked awesome and the rising of the dead was cool too. I wholeheartedly agree with Flipmode; de-wimpify Superman!

Joker85

01-29-2002, 08:45 PM

Well, not the best episode yet, but enjoyable. Faust's "demise" was handled well. I think they could have focused more on Diana and her mother, but, they didn't ask me! :) I do like the way Batman and Flash are portrayed in this eppy. Can't believe we have to wait so long for another new eppy!! :mad:

whitmore_sean

01-29-2002, 09:22 PM

Jeez, I am getting SICK of some of the garbage coming out of Flash's mouth. In the span of twenty minutes, the world's two most often used and INSIPID jokes were both used. "Warlocks-R-Us" and "(insert bad guy's name) needs a breath mint". Who on God's green Earth thinks either of these are funny? I'm sure it cracked up the test audiences when they were first used, on an episode of the Smurfs two hundred years ago. Really, if they're gonna regulate Flash to being the one-dimensional, all-but-useless comic relief, they better start making him funny.

*Ahem* Rest of the episode was good, though.

SEAN

Failure

01-29-2002, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

I can understand that, but my point is somewhat different. Granted that Diana is portrayed as a Worf-like character willing to pay a price for her ideals: But why must this point be made in a way that sharply diminishes (or even eliminates) our respect for Hippolyta and Themyscira? It is one thing to say that Diana has a keen sense of justice; it is another to illustrate that by making her mother look bad.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Maxie. I dont think Hippolyta's decision to exile WW makes her look less compassionate or diminishes our respect for her. If anything, it increased my respect for her, because she was bound to do what was "right." And in this case, the right thing was having to comply with a sacred law that has existed throughout Themyscira's history (I imagine). It was a difficult decision to make and could have been easy to slip out of or soften, but Hippolyta stayed true to what was ordained. It might be stubborn, but not disrespectful. It's as she said, "as your mother, I am overjoyed you came back, but as your queen..." She has a duty to fulfill to her followers and to her land. Like Mad Hatter said, I think it would have been a cop-out for Hippolyta to add a condition such as "you are exiled to fight for justice, etc." Not only that, it would've been out of character, because if you go back to Secret Origins, Hippolyta couldn't care less whether the outside world was being destroyed or not.

Just my .02

Maxie Zeus

01-29-2002, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by Failure
I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Maxie. I dont think Hippolyta's decision to exile WW makes her look less compassionate or diminishes our respect for her. If anything, it increased my respect for her, because she was bound to do what was "right."

Well, my original point was in answer to an observation about the JL's reaction (like Flash's outrage). It was suggested that the JL thought Diana had been done dirty by, and that we were supposed to feel the same way. I observed that this was curious: Why should the show go out of its way to make us (and the JL) feel outraged?

You say you did not feel outrage. Well, I accept that. What, then, is your judgement about Flash's reaction? Were he and the other JLers wrong to think it a slap in Diana's face?

Had the JL accepted the judgement with the grace Diana did, it would have gone a long way toward telling the audience how we should feel about the event-- we often take our cues on how to react from how the heroes of a story react. So why make the JL shocked and then ask us not to share in that shock?

And in this case, the right thing was having to comply with a sacred law that has existed throughout Themyscira's history (I imagine). It was a difficult decision to make and could have been easy to slip out of or soften, but Hippolyta stayed true to what was ordained. It might be stubborn, but not disrespectful. It's as she said, "as your mother, I am overjoyed you came back, but as your queen..." She has a duty to fulfill to her followers and to her land.

Hippolyta's decision toward Diana was particularly surprising given her treatment of the men Diana had brought to the island. I don't know the law of Themyscira, but I was rather under the impression (Themysciran or another expert on the WW backstory can enlighten me) that the law was pretty harsh toward any men who landed on its shores. Instead, Hippolyta feted them. Now, if the law does mandate doing something nasty to any men who come ashore, then you cannot plead the necessity of law in the case of Diana while dismissing it in the case of the JLers.

Like Mad Hatter said, I think it would have been a cop-out for Hippolyta to add a condition such as "you are exiled to fight for justice, etc." Not only that, it would've been out of character, because if you go back to Secret Origins, Hippolyta couldn't care less whether the outside world was being destroyed or not.

I'm not in the business of defending my suggestion, about which I actually feel quite tepid. But the intent of the rider would be to soften the tone and not the punishment. Diana would still be exiled until Hippolyta chose to let her back in--which is surely already the case in the actual episode. But it would have the effect of adding a wink: "You wanted to leave Themyscira anyway to fight for justice in the outer world (about which I care nothing). Fine. Then I'll 'punish' you by giving you exactly what you want. I'll exile you from Themyscira and charge you with fighting for justice in the outer world." That's why I likened it to throwing Diana in the briar patch: it gives her exactly what she most deeply wants.

In a sense this is already what Hippolyta has done, and that may be one reason Diana seems so accepting of her doom. But the "wink" of the rider would have the effect of adding a personal reconciliation and acceptance of Diana's decision while sparing Hippolyta the humiliation of overtly acknowledging it. And it would have relieved the rancorousness of the moment.

There. I think I just saw your $0.02 and raised you another penny. :D

Themysciran

01-29-2002, 11:27 PM

Hippolyta's decision toward Diana was particularly surprising given her treatment of the men Diana had brought to the island. I don't know the law of Themyscira, but I was rather under the impression (Themysciran or another expert on the WW backstory can enlighten me) that the law was pretty harsh toward any men who landed on its shores. Instead, Hippolyta feted them. Now, if the law does mandate doing something nasty to any men who come ashore, then you cannot plead the necessity of law in the case of Diana while dismissing it in the case of the JLers.

In present comic continuity, the law of not having men on Themyscira is non-existent. A few years back, the Amazons allowed Herakles to give penance for his misdeeds to the Amazons and allowed him to be on their island. After that, delegates from the UN came to Themyscira (some of which were men).

In pre-Crisis continuity, variations of the "law" of men stepping foot on Themyscira would render Amazons weak or even destroyed (and one story implied that the Amazons would fight over the man to be his lover).

Be that as it may, the Amazon law exists in JL continuity, and Hippolyte acted appropriately when exiling her daughter. As queen, she had a bigger picture to think about and I, for one, would have lost respect for her if she HADN'T done something to punish Diana.

The "Fury" storyline is supposed to bring Diana back to her home, so perhaps that is where we will see a reconciliation between Diana and Hippolyte.

Spider

01-29-2002, 11:28 PM

I'd still like to see Wonder Woman somehow reconciled with her mother and Themyscira in a future episode. I still don't know if it is possible, as I don't know if consistency with other iterations is mandatory. Can someone enlighten me here? Is the Wonder Woman in JL really different than the one portrayed in print? To state it another way, are the 'versions' dissimilar, comparable, parallel, or neither of these? Thanks. :)

Spider

01-29-2002, 11:30 PM

Themysciran,

Your post snuck in there right before mine. Had I known you would have had some of the answers.... ;)

Themysciran

01-29-2002, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Spider
I'd still like to see Wonder Woman somehow reconciled with her mother and Themyscira in a future episode. I still don't know if it is possible, as I don't know if consistency with other iterations is mandatory. Can someone enlighten me here? Is the Wonder Woman in JL really different than the one portrayed in print? To state it another way, are the 'versions' dissimilar, comparable, parallel, or neither of these? Thanks. :)

Yes and no. Aside from the obvious differences in appearance [fewer stars in shorts, 'W' insignia (looks like it's missing the bottom 'W'), her boots having heels, lasso not "lasso of truth"] and parts of her history (winning a tournament to attain the position of Wonder Woman after Ares, god of war, began wreaking havoc in "Man's World, her mother being a brunette now, etc., Hippolyta having had a relationship with Herakles not Hades), she is the same Amazon princess we know and love. Bruce Timm and Co. made some "executive decisions" about her appearance/background for animation purposes, but they've definitely stayed true to form with Diana's personality.

I will admit that Phil Jimenez does portray Diana differently in print than the JL version, anyone watching the show would get the gist of our Amazon.

Spider

01-29-2002, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Themysciran

Yes and no. Aside from the obvious differences in appearance [fewer stars in shorts, 'W' insignia (looks like it's missing the bottom 'W'), her boots having heels, lasso not "lasso of truth"] and parts of her history (winning a tournament to attain the position of Wonder Woman after Ares, god of war, began wreaking havoc in "Man's World, her mother being a brunette now, etc., Hippolyta having had a relationship with Herakles not Hades), she is the same Amazon princess we know and love. Bruce Timm and Co. made some "executive decisions" about her appearance/background for animation purposes, but they've definitely stayed true to form with Diana's personality.

I will admit that Phil Jimenez does portray Diana differently in print than the JL version, anyone watching the show would get the gist of our Amazon.

Themysciran,

Thanks. You have a vast knowledge of Wonder Woman. And I too like your quote [signature] at the bottom of your posts. It was one of the highlights of Part 1--spoken with reckless abandon, and very emphatic. :)

Ed Liu

01-30-2002, 12:12 AM

Howdy all,

Well, it seems like most of what I wanted to say about this episode has been said, mostly by Maxie Zeus and SimonMoon5. Admittedly, I don't think I'm quite as harsh on the whole thing as they are, but at the same time, I'm still not detecting the greatness that could be found in almost every other episode of the original BTAS, or even some of the episodes of TNBA. Someone made a comment about how the weak dialogue is carried by strong storylines, and I couldn't agree more. Fundamentally, I really liked the STORY they were trying to tell here. I just really disliked a lot of the aspects of how they told it. JL is a GOOD animated show, but it still isn't hitting the heights of, say, BTAS, Samurai Jack, or Cowboy Bebop.

While I felt bad for Diana at the end of the ep, it still had nowhere near the emotional resonance of the first Mr. Freeze episode of BTAS, or even the episode of TNBA where Robin meets the little girl who has amnesia. This despite the fact that those other 2 episodes were both a half-hour long, while JL had an hour to do the setup and the story. Not a good thing, IMO.

Add another mythology geek who got rather irked at the revisionist Greek mythology in the episode. I can let that go, though, since almost nobody's ever gotten the mythology right (George Perez's Wonder Woman run and Walt Simonson's Thor run being notable and excellent exceptions).

I'll also harp on my usual complaints about sloppiness, although the ones I have now are purely for the animation company rather than on the writing creative staff. I also noticed the Flash's sword just appearing (maybe he RAN OFF at SUPER SPEED, picked one up from across the room, and then RAN BACK to stand in place again and wait for the plant-thing to pick him up again), and WW's lasso is nowhere in sight as they descend into the cavern under Themyscira. Fine, they're little things, but that kind of stuff just didn't happen in the older shows as much.

BTW, folks are citing the rule of "no men" on Themyscira, but is that the actual rule? If I remember right, Hippolyta says WW brought these "strangers" to the island, not "men."

Also, Julie Bowen of Ed has been cast as an Amazon for a future episode. I suspect we have not seen the last of Themyscira.

-- Ed/Ace

Failure

01-30-2002, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Well, my original point was in answer to an observation about the JL's reaction (like Flash's outrage). It was suggested that the JL thought Diana had been done dirty by, and that we were supposed to feel the same way. I observed that this was curious: Why should the show go out of its way to make us (and the JL) feel outraged?

You say you did not feel outrage. Well, I accept that. What, then, is your judgement about Flash's reaction? Were he and the other JLers wrong to think it a slap in Diana's face?

Had the JL accepted the judgement with the grace Diana did, it would have gone a long way toward telling the audience how we should feel about the event-- we often take our cues on how to react from how the heroes of a story react. So why make the JL shocked and then ask us not to share in that shock?

Well, I empathized with the JLers. I understood exactly why Flash was outraged at the decision. I was surprised and I did feel that the decision was unjust. WW did what she did because her family was in danger, but I think WW did it knowing what the consequences were. I think the JLers were particularly outraged because they as outsiders, were not familiar with the Themiscyrian ways.

But I didnt hold it against Hippolyta, because I felt that it was beyond her power to ignore the consequences. I took into heart what Batman said to Flash, "dont make it any harder than it is." I think the animators did a great job showing the mixed emotions on Hippolyta's face, she didn't want to make that decision, but she had to. I sympathized with Hippolyta.

Hippolyta's decision toward Diana was particularly surprising given her treatment of the men Diana had brought to the island. I don't know the law of Themyscira, but I was rather under the impression (Themysciran or another expert on the WW backstory can enlighten me) that the law was pretty harsh toward any men who landed on its shores. Instead, Hippolyta feted them. Now, if the law does mandate doing something nasty to any men who come ashore, then you cannot plead the necessity of law in the case of Diana while dismissing it in the case of the JLers.

Well, I have absolutely no knowledge of how Themyscira works, their laws toward men and so on. I also assumed that some kind of punishment exists for the men. But I suppose the men would've been punished if they came on their own, but WW wound up being punished since she led the way.

I'm not in the business of defending my suggestion, about which I actually feel quite tepid. But the intent of the rider would be to soften the tone and not the punishment. Diana would still be exiled until Hippolyta chose to let her back in--which is surely already the case in the actual episode. But it would have the effect of adding a wink: "You wanted to leave Themyscira anyway to fight for justice in the outer world (about which I care nothing). Fine. Then I'll 'punish' you by giving you exactly what you want. I'll exile you from Themyscira and charge you with fighting for justice in the outer world." That's why I likened it to throwing Diana in the briar patch: it gives her exactly what she most deeply wants.

In a sense this is already what Hippolyta has done, and that may be one reason Diana seems so accepting of her doom. But the "wink" of the rider would have the effect of adding a personal reconciliation and acceptance of Diana's decision while sparing Hippolyta the humiliation of overtly acknowledging it. And it would have relieved the rancorousness of the moment.

There. I think I just saw your $0.02 and raised you another penny.

I understand your points about the writers nudging the way the audience reacts to the material. You know, I've never really thought about that. I guess it's possible that my reaction is one of a minority.

But I do like your "wink" suggestion. I would have accepted Hippolyta saying something like "you are exiled until further notice" (something like that) more than "you are exiled to fight for the fate of humanity."

But ultimately, I liked how they handled it. The other JLers would react the way they did, because they would feel it's unfair. But I think the most important reactions were by WW and Hippolyta. WW in her quiet acceptance gave me the impression that she thought she was getting what she expected and deserved. And Hippolyta's visible sadness.

I'll up the ante to .04 ;)

GenXer

01-30-2002, 02:59 AM

I think they're trying to downplay Superman, and maybe not even on purpose. I love the character of Superman, and was really ticked that his own series was cut so short, especially compared to Batman's various runs. But something in the back of my mind cheered when Diana (have they even called her Wonder Woman yet???) kicked his butt in the mall.

Why?

I think I remember, with much distaste, those corny Super Friends episodes where Superman was more powerful than all the other characters put together and multiplied by 10. Wonder Woman was only a "magic lasso" and Aquaman talked to fish. This is the first decent treatment most of these other characters have EVER received outside of comics and watching them get their turn to be cool is what is making this show such a great ride for me so far. Any downplaying of Superman or Batman in screen time or ability to jump in and save the day at the last moment because he's really strong or really smart, lets the others stand out a bit more.

And I thought that Hades' smackdown was effective. It didn't make Superman anything less (remember that he did stagger Hades) but made the evil god seem that much more threatening. It was like "whoa, he smacked SUPERMAN". I felt Hades' power level added to the suspense and drama.

Do I have a "wish list" too? Sure. Ares would have been cooler. More Aquaman would be nice. Superman being a little more super is okay, you guys have convinced me (I do miss the heat vision). I really want Wonder Woman's lasso to be magic again, because I don't think she really needs just a rope, that's Batman's thing. And I really want Hawkgirl to fly away and just keep on flying, but I digress...

There's lots of shows left to fill in the holes, I hope. For the most part, the show has been great so far. I'm just going to enjoy it and count my blessings...

It could be the Wonder Twins...

:wakko:

Borg4of3

01-30-2002, 08:35 AM

I really want Wonder Woman's lasso to be magic again, because I don't think she really needs just a rope, that's Batman's thing.
No wonder they both grabbed Faust! I'm wondering why no one mentioned this part of the action scene. I thought it was pretty neat to see two JLers actually attacking simultaneously.

And on the topic of Flash's sword, I think I can defend the animators to a point. While they didn't make it as apparent as it should have been, the sword actually was stuck in the ground on that scene and, just as the vines grabbed Superman, Flash just reached down and grabbed it. It wasn't the focus or anything and the sword was almost camaflauged with the background, but at least it didn't just materialize in Flash's hands for no reason. However, the question of how swords seem to materialize in the middle of the floor still has to be resolved.

Tim Drake

01-30-2002, 10:35 AM

yeah I noticed the sword in the ground before Flash picked it up as well. As for the stock animation used for Flash watch the JL fight scene versus Faust in slow motion. Its obvious to you non-believers.

SimonMoon5

01-30-2002, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by GenXer
And I thought that Hades' smackdown was effective. It didn't make Superman anything less (remember that he did stagger Hades) but made the evil god seem that much more threatening. It was like "whoa, he smacked SUPERMAN".

But everybody smacks Superman, whether it be white martians, manhunters, an electric manhole cover, or just guys with guns (or at least, Superman cowers in fear from the Atlanteans with guns).

Has there been any attack in the Justice League cartoons that Superman has been able to ignore? Does his power of invulnerability actually do anything ?

JohnStewart-GL

01-30-2002, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5

But everybody smacks Superman, whether it be white martians, manhunters, an electric manhole cover, or just guys with guns (or at least, Superman cowers in fear from the Atlanteans with guns).

Has there been any attack in the Justice League cartoons that Superman has been able to ignore? Does his power of invulnerability actually do anything ? the little white aliens didn't hurt him.

Apache Chief

01-30-2002, 11:39 AM

two things -

Superman gets plenty of chances to be Super and save everybody:

"In Blackest Night" part 1, who arives to end the Manhunter fight?

Also, don't be bothered that we didn't clearly see Flash pick up the sword. He's the Flash! He could pick and drop the sword a million times before we blinked!

SimonMoon5

01-30-2002, 12:02 PM

SimonMoon5

01-30-2002, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Apache Chief
two things -

Superman gets plenty of chances to be Super and save everybody:

"In Blackest Night" part 1, who arives to end the Manhunter fight?

Green Lantern. Superman was (eventually) blown away by the Manhunter's energy blasts.

James Harvey

01-30-2002, 12:34 PM

Who wrote this episode?

Maxie Zeus

01-30-2002, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Jim Harvey
Who wrote this episode?

Joe Kuhr.

Maxie Zeus

01-30-2002, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Failure
I'll up the ante to .04 ;)

A penny here, a penny there. Pretty soon we'll be up to real money! :p

If I read Themysciran's explanation correctly (thanks, man!) we really don't know what is going on with that ban. Clearly it is not the pre-Crisis continuity (much to Flash's chagrin, I'm sure!) but it doesn't sound like the post-Crisis continuity either. I mean, if Hippolyta can lift the ban for the U.N. (like lifting a ban on the importation of alcohol) why not lift it for the JL and retroactively pardon Diana's action?

Bottom-line is: We don't know what is up with the ban, which means the writers can do anything with it they want. That actually leaves me more disturbed, since it makes the ban feel simply like a plot device: "Oh, we need to make Diana suffer so we'll allude to this ban without explaining how and why it works the way it does." PL was a golden opportunity to explain why the island has this ban. And the divergent treatment accorded to the men and to Diana left me scratching my head about the reasons for it.

Think of it this way: Suppose Hippolyta had said to the JL, "Thanks for saving us. Now get the hell off the island before we kill you." You could make the same excuse then as you make for her treatment of Diana: The law dictates she say that. There is no reason given for why she should act one way rather than another, so her action feels arbitrary and unprincipled.

At least, it does to me. But, maybe that's just me. ;)

Naraht

01-30-2002, 01:45 PM

I think superman was more on par with his TAS days in this ep...

It's possible, that Post-Legacy either the trauma or some other factor has caused Supes to be "affected" in an easier manner..it could be a show to the people that he isn't out to get them...he could be taking punishment as penetance for what he did..
He could have been given a red sun treatment, which has weakened him somewhat, as a sort of failsafe.

I dunno. Those are just some more theories to yell at me about.

Houman

01-30-2002, 02:20 PM

In "Enemy Below P.1" Superman did show some great leadership when just after the first fight scene with the Atlanteans he told Aquaman something to the effect that they didn't need to fight, and that he should bring his grievences to the world council.

I just Supes would take on that role more often--as the born leader he is.

Crimson Lightning

01-30-2002, 03:35 PM

did anyone else notce hat Flash wasn't the only one screwing up when he picked up the staff? everyoe else just kinda alowl put things back down..... that part was awesome! what part from speed demons did they take> i haven't seen it in a while and i missed it. i loved the flash action! it was great...

gotta run!

RorShaq

01-30-2002, 06:22 PM

And I thought that Hades' smackdown was effective. It didn't make Superman anything less (remember that he did stagger Hades) but made the evil god seem that much more threatening. It was like "whoa, he smacked SUPERMAN". I felt Hades' power level added to the suspense and drama.

I tried to address this point in a different thread. I, for one, didn't really have a problem with Hades hurting Superman. He is, after all, a god. However, the effectiveness of showing Superman beaten like that is greatly reduced, given that we see him smacked around so easily every episode. An enemy or threat can no longer be awe-inspiring simply by virtue of defeating Superman, as it seems as though everyone is capable of doing so these days.

neilf

01-31-2002, 12:11 AM

I have to disagree that Superman's smackdown was appropriate. His entire characterization has been mishandled from the first episode. He doesn't lead or act with the same authoritative presence he displayed in STAS. I can't figure out if it's the script/story or the acting. He definately gets "smaked down" far too often. I'm not saying he has to be all powerful, but at least put him back to his STAS power level. He always struggled but didn't go down as easily as he does in JL. Actually he may have struggled almost as much but he was tougher - he could take a punch so to speak. It is becoming so predictable that we all can site when he's going to be taken down. I'm over the fact that we can't have Tim Daly do the voice. But the acting is all wrong and I don't know if George Newbuern (how the heck do you spell his name) is solely to blame. It could be that they are giving him poor direction (and I think the writing of the character is not what it should be). Do you guys think I'm off base? Just remember STAS - Legacy, Worlds Finest, The Main Man, any ep that had Darksied, etc. His confidence was evident, even if he struggled he still had a much more commanding presence.

Failure

01-31-2002, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
At least, it does to me. But, maybe that's just me. ;)

Hmm, maybe if I knew how Themyscira actually worked I'd feel differently. However, I do agree with some of your points Maxie. They should have explained the reasons behind the ban on men. If it's so sacred, I'm sure there's a heckuva story behind it. Maybe they'll focus on it later?

On one hand, I also agree that threatening the JL after thanking them would help justify her decision against WW. However, that seems even more cold-hearted than to just exile WW alone. It makes it seem like the thanks were empty and she wasn't greatful in the first place.

Hopefully they wont toss the exile thing around as a plot device, but, taken in a vacuum, I thought they handled the actual exiling and reactions pretty well.

Whattya know we're up to a real monetary denomination now. A nickel! :)

GenXer

01-31-2002, 03:01 AM

And I'm still wondering if "Wonder Woman" has ever been used...I think that they always call her "Diana".

I just don't think I want a return of the off the scale powerful Superman. Maybe there is room to beef him up just a bit but that whole planet moving, fly to another galaxy before breakfast, zip around the earth and make time move backwards angle just makes him boring.

It was when they pulled him back and made him a little more human that he got interesting. Seeing him struggle and strain and even get hurt makes me sympathize with the guy and really feel what he's going through. And it gives me a sense that he's really working at being a hero.

The almighty Supes always resulted in every villain having kryptonite in one form or another (kryptonite handcuffs, kryptonite cage, kryptonite peanut butter sandwich) so that the plot could move forward. Otherwise Superman would have burst in at super speed and beat up everybody before Wonder Woman had a chance to find her invisible keys (and that must have been a pain).

I guess I'd be willing to settle for a happy medium???

Anyway, this is a topic probably going on in some other message board. I loved the "Diana" episode and I'm looking forward to further developments with the princess.

SimonMoon5

01-31-2002, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by GenXer
And I'm still wondering if "Wonder Woman" has ever been used...I think that they always call her "Diana".

In "In Blackest Night," didn't they say that "Wonder Woman" was off on another mission?

Karkull

01-31-2002, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Think of it this way: Suppose Hippolyta had said to the JL, "Thanks for saving us. Now get the hell off the island before we kill you." You could make the same excuse then as you make for her treatment of Diana: The law dictates she say that. There is no reason given for why she should act one way rather than another, so her action feels arbitrary and unprincipled.

Tell me about it. I was almost expecting some of the Justice League members to plea bargin:

Hippolyta: "Men aren't allowed on this island."

Superman: "Uh...I'm not really a man. Not in the way you're thinking."

Hippolyta: "What?"

Superman: "I'm an alien from another planet. So is J'onn. Does that make it better?"

Hippolyta: "No, you're both still male. Diana must be punished."

J'onn J'onzz [morphs into a female version of himself]: "Does this repair some of the damage we caused?"

Hippolyta: "No."

Superman picks up Batman and J'onn picks up the Flash and they lift off the ground, hovering a few feet overhead.

Batman: "There, we're not on the island. Okay?"

Hippolyta: "NO!"

Sort of like that scene from Futurama's Fear of a Bot Planet, where Fry and Leela are on trial for being humans on a robot planet. "Look, one eye. One! Not human!"

:D

Maxie Zeus

01-31-2002, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Karkull

Tell me about it. I was almost expecting some of the Justice League members to plea bargin:

Hippolyta: "Men aren't allowed on this island."

Superman: "Uh...I'm not really a man. Not in the way you're thinking."

Hippolyta: "What?"

Superman: "I'm an alien from another planet. So is J'onn. Does that make it better?"

Hippolyta: "No, you're both still male. Diana must be punished."

J'onn J'onzz [morphs into a female version of himself]: "Does this repair some of the damage we caused?"

Hippolyta: "No."

Superman picks up Batman and J'onn picks up the Flash and they lift off the ground, hovering a few feet overhead.

Batman: "There, we're not on the island. Okay?"

Hippolyta: "NO!""

LOL! :D

James Harvey

02-01-2002, 11:41 AM

Can anyone provide an accurate and spoiler free one or two line synopsis for PARADISE LOST Part 1 and one for PARADISE LOST Part 2?

Naraht

02-01-2002, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Jim Harvey
Can anyone provide an accurate and spoiler free one or two line synopsis for PARADISE LOST Part 1 and one for PARADISE LOST Part 2?

Pt1 : WW returns home, only to find it in shambles.
Pt2 : WW w/Help from the JL, must race to save her homeland.

James Harvey

02-01-2002, 12:03 PM

Thanks alot. I'm gonna use those for my site's episode guiode, if ye don't mind. I've yet to be able ot obtain "official" descriptions, so i gotta rig up these temp ones until I can. Thanks, nar!

Naraht

02-01-2002, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Jim Harvey
Thanks alot. I'm gonna use those for my site's episode guiode, if ye don't mind. I've yet to be able ot obtain "official" descriptions, so i gotta rig up these temp ones until I can. Thanks, nar!

N/P...=D

I is gonna be published! =O

Sugar Daddy

02-01-2002, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by naraht

N/P...=D

I is gonna be published! =O

go u

JLU Dude

02-02-2002, 01:01 PM

Finally saw it today. I thought it was cool, but the ending was kinda sad.

Heehaw

02-02-2002, 03:17 PM

Finally caught it on Saturday's broadcast. I basically have the same reaction I had to part 1. Decent animation here, bad there, not really anything special. The music was better, but still pretty stale. The CG elements are increasingly grinding at my skull, as well. The part where WW is holding the torch while everyone descends to the underworld was horrid. The cheesy computer generated torch glow was too much. Notice how the cel based art is flat and not "glowing". If this were BTAS, the entire scene would have been beautiful hand animated, glow and all and the characters would have been basked in oranges, reds, yellows, etc. I have the same problem with the artificial lightening. It's cheap and cheesy and low class. I expect more. Ditto for the final CG sucking/vortex animation used to fling Hades back into the void.

The story was basically one long fight and Hades spouting off innuendo, no development, nothing. Bad writers=crippled show. No attention to detail and shoddy craftmanship=nice try.

DR. BELCH

02-02-2002, 03:32 PM

Was anyone else humming the theme to Branded at the end when Diana/Wonder Woman walked under her sisters' crossed swords?

Faust, like his namesake, died for the sake of dark knowlege. It was pretty creepy to see him wither into a skeleton and then blow into dust.

Why didn't Wonder Woman find female warriors to accompany her? Like Hawkgirl...Supergirl...Batgirl...even Catwoman (she'd go if she had some business to settle with Faust, like an old grudge, but she'd be liable to loot the temple while there as well...which would sort of serve to make the Amazons rethink their "women good, men bad" rule).

Some anal fanboy is going to gripe that that wasn't genuine-looking Greek armor on Hades' undead minions, I just know it. LOL.

I do hope Wondy isn't the daughter of Hades from his and Hippolyta's tryst.... :eek:

Naraht

02-02-2002, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
Was anyone else humming the theme to Branded at the end when Diana/Wonder Woam walked under her sisters' crossed swords?

I air Branded @ work!!

LOL! That is so appropriate now that I think of it! =O

Sugar Daddy

02-02-2002, 03:41 PM

I'm in the middle of watching jl on cn now, and i just caught the part where the flash running is stock footage when he rusn around faust, waiting for the 2nd use, lol, i didnt realize it the first time. its back, later

Sugar Daddy

02-02-2002, 03:53 PM

I just finished watching the whole thing again, and the Flash parts with Hades don't look like stock footage. whatever, lol

Cassandra

02-02-2002, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
I do hope Wondy isn't the daughter of Hades from his and Hippolyta's tryst.... :eek:

Yeah, when he took off his horned-helmet thing that was the first thing I thought of. (Mmmmm...maybe THAT's why she didn't inherit her mom's goldilocks...) And the way he said, " hippolyta, you didn't tell me you had a daughter." I was half expecting that to be a horrible revalation at the end.

Bruce Wayne

02-06-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Sugar Daddy
I just finished watching the whole thing again, and the Flash parts with Hades don't look like stock footage. whatever, lol
Actually, it's not that part. I jsut watchd it a few min ago for the first time. It was when he was running around like crazy when Faust is shooting those electric thingies at him.

Anyone know why it was used?

Heehaw

02-06-2002, 04:34 PM

Actually, it's not that part. I jsut watchd it a few min ago for the first time. It was when he was running around like crazy whActually, it's not that part. I jsut watchd it a few min ago for the first time. It was when he was running around like crazy when Faust is shooting those electric thingies at him.

Anyone know why it was used?

Probably a lack of funds and/or time. That seems to be the norm with JL.

Apologies if this has already been mentionied, but why does WW have to fly the Jav-7 home? She could have easily flown there without it. I suppose this applies to the entire team. The Flash can run where he needs to quicker than the the ship, and Batman has his own plane. The other members can all fly, probably faster than Jav can. Other than outerspace type use, and quite possibly extended underwater travel, I really don't see any reason for the vehicle to even exist except that it will make a cool toy one day.

Maxie Zeus

02-06-2002, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Heehaw
I really don't see any reason for the vehicle to even exist except that it will make a cool toy one day.

Well, in Batman Animated Dini says that originally they were going to drop the Batsignal. If Batman wanted to get in touch with the police he'd call or leave a message. So why was it brought back? "Because it looked so cool."

I'd say the same thing about the Javelin-7. Yeah, it's pretty dang toyetic. Which is another way of saying that it looks cool.

As for its use in the plot. There may be a minor plot point that it's use solves: WW calls Batman on her way back from Themyscira. The plane may be there as a prop to let her make that call.

Sugar Daddy

02-06-2002, 07:15 PM

I wasn't sure if the 2nd part was stock footage or not. i guess not

TheHuntressDiana

02-06-2002, 07:23 PM

Well, I know I'm chiming in rather late (my cable was out last monday and I had to wait 'til Saturday afternoon to see it). And I've been quite lazy this week when it comes to posting 'round here too. ;)

I don't know what else I can really say that hasn't been said already (this is page 10). I did enjoy part two more than part one. If you were to hold them up against each other and compare, part two was a 10.

JusticeLeagueLegion

02-07-2002, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by daedalus222
...I still am pissed about the crappy use of a character as cool as Deadshot...

Let's face it though, Deadshot's more of a Teen Titans type...no match for the Justice League....and although I do think he's a very cool villain...he just don't match up to The Justice League. I've heard some mention that he's equal to Batman...but face it...he's not.

DisneyBoy

04-08-2002, 10:52 AM

...feel free to merge this with the Paradise Lost Pt 2 thread - I couldn't find it!

YAY!!!

Overall, I can't really complain - I finally got to see it! We got a nicely executed Wonder Woman episode that dipped into her mythology without letting it get too cheesy. The only thing that really ruined things for me was knowing the story about Hades and Hippolyta and about Diana being exiled because people didn't always mark SPOILER next to their comments! :mad: You know who who were....

Animation wise, I think I preferred Part One, because Part Two was inconsistant. From the stock-animation of Flash running towards the camera to occasionally flat-looking Diana (namely when she was walking towards the camera), I was hoping for more. However, some great effects, like the use of light and wind during the climax, made up for it.

Susan whats-her-name still doesn't sound to me like the best person to voice Wondie, but since she's here to stay, I guess I can live with her. She sounds to me more like a young Wonder Woman, so maybe if Wondie ever gets a spinn-off series that takes place a few years later, a more mature sounding actress can fill her shoes.

I really however, enjoyed the actors behind Hades and Hippolyta. Somehow Hippolyta's voice seems to match her current blonde design...but I couldn't hear her voicing a brunette Hippolyta. Odd, isn't it? How we can associate voices with appearances...

I was hoping for more out of the Timm-animated sequence, but it was still nice, and stunningly realistic for an other-wise cartoony show. I don't know how accurate the story is though:

In the comics, Hercules and his armies tricked Hippolyta into letting down her guard, and then raped and brutalized her and the Amazons. When the Amazons finally freed themselves and killed most of the army, the Godesses who created them felt they had abandonned their peacefull purpose, and therefore sent them away from Greece, to live on Themyscira, wear the bracelets as a symbol of their shame and guard Doom's Doorway - which was filled with untold dangers.

Here, it seems that Hippolyte had a relationship with Hades sometime before the attack of the Titans, which, if I am correct, took place long before the time when the Amazons came into being in the comics. How Hippolyte could "open the gates of Olympus" is anyone's guess. This really makes me wonder - How old are these Amazons? When were they created, and what kind of relationship do they have with the Gods that brought them to life? I was really hoping that the Timm-sequence would clear up Diana's birth and transition into Wonder Woman, but this story wasn't bad either. Combining the Hercules/Doom's Doorway version into a Hades trapped within the Pit of Tartarus idea was practical for the show - and still enjoyable....but it leaves many questions unanswered...

Generally, a great two-parter! I only wish I could have gone into it not knowing that Diana was going to be exiled . I wonder if Timm and company chose to do this as a way to not have to always have Diana returning to the isle, or as a temporary set-back in her early career. Perhaps once I get to see "Fury"....if ever....I may discover Hippolyta will let her return.

I hope "Fury" introdues Aries into the series, and lifts the banishment from Diana's shoulders....but I guess only time will tell...

P.S.
I REALLY WISH THEY COULD MAKE A PARADISE ISLE PLAYSET!!!

DisneyBoy

04-08-2002, 02:38 PM

....I wish someone cared about my opinions.... :( (sniff)

TheHuntressDiana

04-08-2002, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
....I wish someone cared about my opinions.... :( (sniff)

It's not that "no one cares."

I just think you should've added your comments to the original thread (it's still there).

But that's just my opinion.

DisneyBoy

04-08-2002, 03:31 PM

I wanted too, but I couldn't find a thread called "Official Talkback on Paradise Lost Part Two". Please show me which page it is on and I'll try to add this to it!

TheHuntressDiana

04-08-2002, 04:06 PM

Bumping this up for Disneyboy... :)

Borg4of3

04-08-2002, 04:09 PM

Wow, Found it on Page 18! (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18264)

And to add to the comments - the fight scenes weren't as epic as I hoped. The Leaguers were at their worst, taking turns with very passive attempts at attacks, plus a completely logic-defying deus ex machina in the Key destruction. And great comments were made against the exile scene and how it could have been done better on the talkback thread.

Even so, I still enjoyed it! The Superman/Diana fight was great (alongside the GL/Flash 'battle', hopefully we'll see a few more Leaguer vs Leaguer fights, hehe), and Faust is an awesome villain. Hades had great voice-acting, and he did great against the League. If that stupid key wasn't so gosh-durn wierd, I don't think the League could have stood a chance, considering their current, at that time, way of handling things.

EDIT: Oop, hehe, HuntressDiana beat me to it!

DisneyBoy

04-08-2002, 04:14 PM

WHERE DID YOU FIND IT??? :) :) :) THANKS!!!

DisneyBoy

04-08-2002, 04:16 PM

...um :o how do I merge the two threads????

oranthal

04-08-2002, 04:17 PM

speaking of Paradise Lost, has anyone ever read John Milton's epic poetry of the same name? i never read it but my english teacher once read a passage from it and i actually wanted to read it but then i realized that the poetry was way beyond me.

Spider

04-08-2002, 04:24 PM

Disney,

You can merge threads one of two ways. You either ask a moderator to do it, or you can ask Hawkgirl--very nicely. ;)

DisneyBoy

04-08-2002, 05:30 PM

I've been reading the extensive and very-well-thought-out comments made in reference to Themyscira's laws, Greek mythology and Wonder Woman history.

I must admit that once the episode was over, I felt like I had watched a kid's cartoon. I'd never use the word "cartoon" - I always use "animated series/film" - but it just felt appropriate.

After all the hard work that George Perez had done to make Diana's history accurate as far as actual mythology goes, I really didn't think the writers of a Wonder Woman series would have any work to do. Here they had 45 minutes to use...and I think they took an easier way out than they should have.

Sure, I'm happy to see Wonder Woman at all, but did they have to cut so many corners? Firstly, Part One was a bit of a waste considering we didn't need to see 6 minutes of a fight that really didn't advance the story. If I wanted to see Superman V.S. Wonder Woman I'd watch Fox's celebrity wrestling! And don't get me started on the giant fire-breathing snake! They clearly bent the story about Hades and the Gods...so much so that I'm sure it left people wondering if Hippolyta was a godess herself. How else could she open the gates to Olympus? Flash was well animated (aside from the stock footage), but how he could make sexual advances on an Amazonian right after saving their Queen and Princess from being raped by a God without getting his legs broken is beyond me. That was definately not appropriate consider the episode dealt with such a mature topic! The key-solution wasn't very intellectual...as others have said...how would it close the doorway? I found Felix Faust intruiging, but I'm certain he'll sell his soul to Hades for a chance to return. Diana showed a lot of physical and moral stregth, but there's still so much more that needs to be clarified - and I doubt it ever will be.

The exile, in my opinion, was the only choice for Hippolyta. Not only does she respect the laws (which really should have been explained alongside with Amazon history), she forces Diana to do what she wants, by keeping her out in Man's World. In this show, Hippolyta clearly (from the little we've seen of her) wants to shelter her daughter...but now she has chosen to put her own wants aside. In the end, we see her clearly upset by her decision, but I think she'll stick to it as long as it's in Diana's best interest. Surely the Amazons aren't angry with Diana, and should she need protection or shelter, I know her sisters won't turn her away.

Seems to me, the writers are generally trying to get speed through origins as fast as they can. What's this I hear about the Flash having a 5 second flash-back to his origin? That's a total cop-out! These characters have such rich histories! Don't try to cram as much into an episode as you can if it sacrifices quality! Most people wouldn't mind seeing how Wally becomes Flash, or how Diana becomes Wonder Woman!

All in all this felt like a bit of a tease. I hope the team decides to go more in-depth next season. These characters are so much more than muscles and spandex - That's why we love them!

Drachentöter

11-23-2002, 02:24 PM

Since last seeing PL, some months ago, I had begun to waver in my opinion on how good it actually was. After all, I respect the posters on this board very much and some of them stated that this episode wasn't up to standards. So, I began watching it this afternoon with a wary eye, itching to look for faults.

And I found none. Five stars.

This is a really great episode. It does an excellent job at blending Greek mythology with modern-day JL continuity. Wonder Woman shines throughout and I really think Susan Eisenberg does great voice work in this ep. Felix Faust was a great villain, very chilling and I hope he makes a return.

The other heroes do a great job as well. Especially Batman, with his detective skills and infallible knowledge. Superman may have been weaker in his fight with Diana, but it is a Wonder Woman spotlight. Carly Lumbly did a great job as the voice of J'onn here, though his character wasn't all that necessary. Flash was hilarious, as always. "Iced mochas for everyone!"

I lied when I said I found no flaws. There were two. When Diana throws a fallen column at Faust, the animation stumbles as he bends back, goes forward, and falls back again. Afterwards, we see Flash and J'onn finding the second relic in broad daylight only to be attacked by the giant snake. Cut to Superman and Wonder Woman in Metropolis at night. When we return to Flash and MM, it's night-time. I doubt they've been fighting this snake for hours.

Truly a great episode.

Drachentöter

11-23-2002, 02:49 PM

I liked Part Two very much. Better than the first. Still gets five stars.

The scene in Faust's study was very cool. It had some nice lines too.

Flash: "Where'd he get this? Warlocks 'R Us?"

Batman: "Don't touch anything!"

Flash: "Ewwww..."

One thing? Where'd they get the last piece of the key? His study?

Hades was very well-portrayed, I think. From the animation, to the voice, to the dialouge, he really did come off as the menacing god he was. And yeah, that was pretty nasty when he asked if Diana was as loving as her mother.

*shudder*

The skeletons were great, as was Faust. I feel sorry for him. "Ultimately, all a man knows is pain and suffering."

How pessimistic.

It'd be intersting to see if Faust really returned. What would he be like after time in the Underworld? Talk about major emotional scarring.

The ending was gutsy and full of drama. It also gave us insight on Diana's sense of duty and allegiance. She would sacrifice seeing her mother and family to obey the law. The sentencing did seem pretty stupid, however. You honor the men who your daughter brought, and then you banish her for bringing them? Me think's Hippolyta's had too much wine...

DisneyBoy

11-24-2002, 01:34 PM

I too was really impressed with Paradise Lost Part One the first time I saw it. However, unlike VortexInfinite, I find myself disliking it more and more over time.

Susan's work as Wonder Woman is still rather good, but great lines such as "I am Diana, Princess of Themyscira and I won't be denied!" was still denied their full potential. If there was anything that made that particular moment a powerful one, it was the improved detail in Diana's expression, and the camera angle. Susan was good, but she could have been better. To me she sounded like she was speaking loudly, rather shouting a battle cry. The same goes for the scene in which she sees the stone figure of her mother. It's the animation which shows her grief, and not her voice. If I saw my mother frozen in stone, my voice would waver and I'd be choked up. Instead, we hear Diana lament her mother's fate as if she is apologizing for missing her birthday. It's the animators who should be applauded for giving us the sense that she's falling to the ground in tears.

However, the animation is not perfect either. The aforementionned discrepency with the time of day during the snake-battle is one such example, while another can be clearly seen as Diana approaches the stone figures of her Amazon sisters. The animation wobbles as if we were watching an early episode of B:TAS. Still I must admit the animation is perhaps at it's best in this episode. The conclusion is another matter...

oranthal

11-27-2002, 07:28 PM

one thing i noticed is that when superman and wonder woman saw each other as monsters, the monster that represented wonder woman was drawn with nipples while the monster representing superman didn't. what's the deal with that?

Mattashell

08-02-2003, 12:05 AM

The Episode:

While it is a mediocre episode, Paradise Lost: Part I has some good points.

The Wonder Woman of JL is my favorite of the incarnations I'm familiar with. Grim, determined and two-fisted, she is an embodyment of female strength (while Hawkgirl is more of a man in a woman's body). I don't like it that she flies though, or that her lasso lacks its well-known "truth" power. Also, despite the positive aspects of her personality, Wonder Woman's personality (unlike her body) is rather flat.

The early scene where Diana witnesses the mother and daughter, and obviously becomes distracted was touching and very effective. The Superman vs Wonder Woman fight was rather good and there was some cute dialogue in the shopping mall.

Unfortunately the episode is not great. Flash tieing the snake in a knot is silly. Wonder Woman is foolish enough to trust Faust to keep his word after he turned all the Amazon's to stone (and the other Leaguers going along with it). The League shows absolute apathy toward the public and private property that they go aroung smashing to bits.

***

Mattashell

08-02-2003, 12:15 AM

Like Part I, Paradise Lost: Part II is a mediocre episode.

Wonder Woman being kicked off Themiscyra for bringing men was a great twist at the end, but where was Hawkgirl? There was some really good animation, but then there's that bit "borowed" from a Superman episode. Hippolyta is here, but she's portrayed as week.

Personally, I'm not bothered by the digital fire.

Really, like most early episodes, the action is pretty good most of the time, but the story needs a lot of help.

The highlight of Paradise Lost: Part II is definitely the Flash. From his comments to his animations, he made this episode watchable.

***

Anarky

01-08-2004, 10:42 PM

hey, here's a great idea

let's cut out the part where Superman and Diana apologize to another, omit them surveying the damage from their fracus, and not show that batman called Diana via comlink. Let's just come back from commercials and have the League coincidentily meet at Faust's penthouse.

they muck up the widescreen saturday nights, the fade out too early, and now the are cutting out the first few seconds of parts 2.

i'm sure someone out there may have been watching "Paradise Lost" for the first time and was wondering "WTF?" when part 2 came back from break.

CN is really dropping the ball on how they present Justice League.

Platinum V

01-09-2004, 11:52 AM

After watching Paradise Lost again I truly feel as though this is by far one of the best episodes of JL from either season. This arc was packed with good storytelling and fantastic animation. From WW's great battle with Faust in the beginning to her being exiled from the island at the end, this was truly a masterpiece.

However...

My only one true gripe was WW's reaction to being banished from the island. The writers, I guess, wanted to convey Diana's strength, and or, stubborness as though being bannished was no big deal, but come on!!!!!

I'm a full grown man and if I had been living in one place for over two thousand years with my family and then one day my mom says that i'm never to return especially after just saving her *****, i'd be boo-hooing like a baby. In my opinion, the writers should have went for a different and more realistic reaction for Diana. She should have lost it emotionally and not just walked away. Had she really cried, more viewers would have truly felt her emotion and cared about her a bit more.

By choosing to have her simply to be hurt and just walk away and then treat her other teammates coldly while they tried to console her only turned viewers cold towards her. The writers have her cry over Superman's death but simply had her walk away after being banished forever from her family. That part I just didn't get at all.

Sue

01-10-2004, 01:32 AM

Platinum V

01-10-2004, 08:30 PM

I didn't think Diana's reaction was unrealistic. She's the princess, and she probably wanted to act strong and show some dignity. I can't see her bawling in front of her teamates and her fellow Amazons. That's probably the same reason she didn't accept comfort from the Leaguers. She didn't want them pitying her more than already they already had. In one of those moments we don't see on screen, I'll bet she was devastated. Who knows, since she apppears to have a spotlight ep next season, maybe the repercussions of her bannishment might be explored. :)
Come on, Sue...:)
Now trust me, I understand what you're saying, but she showed more emotion when she thought Supes had died and she barely knows him as far as we know. I mean think about it...If some cop walked up to you as you and your friends were approaching your home and then tells you that you can never go back inside your home and that you can never see your sisters and friends again you mean to tell me that you'd try and remain strong just because your friends are there? You mean that you wouldn't lose it right then and there?

We all cry. I cry. You cry. :sweat:

I think the creators of Justice League try entirely too hard to keep certain emotions from being brought out of it's characters. I felt the same way watching "In Blackest Night". You have both GL and the Flash about to be executed and neither of them don't even show sadness. The score didn't even represent a certain sadness when they were being led to the slaughter.

Sometimes showing Characters in vulnerable states is what you care about them more because you can feel their pain and their sadness, but how can viewers feel Diana's sadness if she doesn't even seem to be affected by it. All I'm saying is that her reaction to being exiled from her home, friends and families seemed sort of rushed by the creators. A Diana that never shows any real emotion will end up being a character that few will truly relate to. :)

Sue

01-10-2004, 10:59 PM

That makes sense, Platnium, when you consider how she reacted when Supes "died." Still, I think she held back to save face. I'll bet anything she let loose once they got back to the Watchtower :sweat:

lostrune

01-11-2004, 08:08 AM

The Penguin

09-03-2005, 12:28 AM

Tonight at 2 a.m. ET Cartoon Network airs the Justice League arc, Paradise Lost. This thread is a new merge of the original talkbacks for Part 1 and Part 2. Season One talkbacks now match our Season Two talkbacks, which is one per arc because they were originally aired in one hour blocks.

http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/jl/tb.jpg

Episode #10 - Paradise Lost, Part 1
Original Airdate - January 21st, 2002

Wonder Woman returns home, only to find it Themyscira in ruins, Felix Faust being responsible.

Episode #11 - Paradise Lost, Part 2
Original Airdate - January 28th, 2002

Wonder Woman, with help from the Justice League teammates, must attempt to save Themyscira from an evil god.

Comments?

warmachine04

09-03-2005, 07:47 AM

Beside "WarWorld", "Paradise Lost" is one of my least favorite episodes of the animated series. Though the episode did well focus on Wonder Woman, I couldn't stand seeing Superman being turned into a tackling dummy. The story felt slow and some of the voice work seemed uneven. The action kept it worth watching. The ending was somewhat surprising.:sad:

Fone Bone

09-03-2005, 09:23 AM

I have to say before commenting on this episode that this talkback is the most interesting one thus far in JL's early run. Like Secret Origins, In Blackest Night, and The Enemy Below, the early pages are all fawning all over a clearly deficient episode, almost as if they posters SAY it was great, it actually will be. The utter unwillingness to acknowledge that the episode has major problems is startling when you consider how much -----ing was done about JLU's clearly superior first season.

Then on about page three there are a load of comments from people pointing out that this episode actually sucked when compared to BTAS, STAS, or BB. That may be true, but people start going in the exact opposite direction and personally insulting b.t. and all of the hard work he obviously put into the episode. I believe this is the first JL talkback where criticism is actually acknowledge instead of people who dare speak out against an episode being derided for not having a suspension of disbelief. If the reason JL season two improved so much is because b.t. acknowledged all of the fan's criticisms and took them to heart, then this is probably the first useful talkback in the show's history.

Onto the episode itself. While I liked it when I first saw it, it really doesn't hold up to repeat viewings. There are definately some awesome scenes in it. Batman screaming at Flash to not touch the artifacts and Supes and J'onn hastily putting the ones they were holding back was probably the funniest scene the series had had thus far. Robert Englund is phenomenal as Faust as is John Rhys Davies as Hades. Faust definatelty got better lines in The Balance but you can't deny Englund's charms here.

But the episode has major flaws:

1. There is absolutely no jusitfication for Diana helping Faust find the key's parts knowing that he would use it to destroy humanity. Considering she was the one to give Shayera the most flak for her actions in Starcrossed it is BEYOND hypocritical that she herself actually put her own people ahead of humanity and even worse as Shayera did NOT know the Thanagarian's true plans and Diana getting the key for Faust had a pretty good idea of exactly what would happen. I wish Hawkgirl had been in this episode as that could have made for a VERY interesting argument in The Balance.

2. Hippolyta is no better. Her exiling Diana is the ultimate "screw you" as if it hadn't been for Hippolyta, Hades wouldn't have been able to come back in the first place if you consider it was her actions that led him being banished to the underworld. She is just as big a hypocrite as Diana is here and even worse because she actually gets away with it. I was completely feeling the Flash's anger here was justified. Despite the scene making no sense and having absolutely rhyme or reason other than to have a sad ending for the heck of it, it's here that we first get the impression that it is Flash, not J'onn who is the heart of the Justice League as seen in A Better World and Divided We Fall.

3. The voice acting other than Englund, Davies, and Kevin Conroy sucks. But I think I understand the reason why in hindsight. The dialogue is freakin' terrible. Considering what I know George Newburn is capable of (For the Man Who Has Everything) it really isn't fair to put the blame on him as the reason his lines sound corny is because they were written that way. Susan Eisenberg's Diana is no better but I DID get the feeling that was more of the readings rather than the lines. She significantly improved in later seasons. As for Micheal Rosebaum's Flash? Yeah, he did have a couple of great scenes here but any superhero who says "Eeew, gross" sounds like they should be in Totally Spies, not Justice League.

I think on the whole the episode suffers when compared to the second season of JL and JLU. I completely give b.t. the benefit of the doubt here as just starting a team show for the first time IS a difficult thing to pull off and when compared the other team show's first season (X-Men: Evolution, Teen Titans) Jusitce League does come off much better in comparison.

On the whole an uninteresting episode, but a VERY interesting talkback.

Part One: **
Part Two: ***
Average: **1/2
Talkback: *****.

Batman Fan

09-03-2005, 10:26 AM

While JLU and JL Season 2 are a big improvement over JL Season One, and that this episode does have some flaws, as Fone Bone pointed out, I'm still trying to look at all these episodes as b.t first attempt at the show, which it is, and he did a pretty decent job.

However, this episode is pretty dull, and while it does give Diana a nice little spotlight, I think Fury was better for her spotlight. I'll start out with the positives.

Pros
*Faust was a very interesting and intelligent villan to have on the show, and his mystical abilites were really fun to watch as he put up a tough fight with the JL.
*Diana's quest to find the keys, although very stupid and unjustified was fun to watch, watching fight that giant statue and Superman, highlight of the episode!
*Batman had that wonderful creepy scene where he approaches that professor in the shadows and the lighting flashes.
*It was nice to get a look a Themiscara (don't know if I spelled that right) as well as get a nice introduction to Hippolyta.
*Batman telling Flash not to touch anything, and all the League members drop what they're touching.
*The leagues fight with Faust.
*Hades was a nice inclusion, putting some greek mythology on the show was nice, and a great start as I love greek mythology and always enjoy when they include it on the show.
*The ending fight in Tartarus against Hades and all the league fighting against those zombie skeletons.

Cons
*Diana's decision to help Faust find the key was stupid and made no sense as she knew what he'd do with it, and then all the league members accept to help her with no reluctance.
*I have to say, the VA's hadn't really nailed it in this episode yet. Especially WW, she always appeared angry but the VA couldn't nail that emotion.
*The plot gets very slow, as it the whole first part to find all the keys, and the episode is just pure action which gets boring, and the lack of dialogue or story has you wanting more.
*While I did like they included Hades, he didn't really seem very intimdating or threatning and just seemed like another inclusion to another fight scene.
*Ok, and here's the big one, Diana runs around the whole first part to find some keys, and while she gets a few moments, this episode still doesn't deepen her character at all. In part 2, she tries to save her mother ends up doing it, still no character interaction with anyone and she's still pretty bland, and then this whole master plot of Faust releasing Hades to get ultimate knowledge, while it sounds like a pretty straight foward plot anyways, is a complete waste of time and is ruined, as Hades incinerates Faust and he's beaten in about 3 minutes, all that boring build up for nothing.

This episode was kind of a dissapointment, but looking at it as the first attempt on JL, it did achieve some stuff, gave Diana a few moments to shine, some nice action, and a cool villan whose ultimately wasted.

***

Crow

09-03-2005, 10:44 AM

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, Fone. I won't say I've read all the early talkbacks, certainly haven't posted in them, it seems a little like the audience were unsure of what was good and or bad about a very new Justice League Animated Series. The creators have more or less said that one of the reasons that Series 1 (again, in hindsight) might have fallen short was because they themselves had to go on a learning curve slightly.
Things like 'Superman was weak' I've always thought were a bit silly considering STAS, and his action scenes in these early JLs obviously 'paved the way' for more vicious fight scenes starring the Man of Steel that we get to see on average every third or fourth episode. The people behind these shows have shown that they push the envelope in regards to a lot of cartoon taboos, this one I believe to be the most blatant.

This neatly segues into your other Wonder Woman topic - b.t. and co had to develop Wonder Woman on the run while they did give her her first big backstory with Paradise Lost, they also had to actually write a plot for the episode as well.

It's a shame we haven't heard Diana's theme as heartily played as it was at her exile.

Temple Fugate

09-03-2005, 10:50 AM

Fone Bone

09-03-2005, 11:03 AM

One thing that bugged me from "The Balance," which is confirmed in "Paradise Lost," is the condition of WW's banishment. In "Balance," the banishment is lifted by Hippolyta and WW questions why she would go against the will of the Gods. But here, we clearly see that Hippolyta imposed the exile by herself, probably without even consulting the Gods. Therefore, Hippolyta's line about "my wants are more important than some stupid rule from Mt. Olympus" in "Balance" is moot, because she was countering her OWN earlier decision, not someone higher up. While the intent may have been to make her sound like a compassionate person willing to bend the rules for her daughter, it ends up making her look like a hyppocrate who doesn't realize her mistakes until years later. (and considering her history with Hades, this is probably all too true)

Excellent point. With what we know from the banishment in The Balance it makes even less sense here. I really wish at some point in JLU season three Wonder Woman comes to the conclusion that Hippolyta IS a hypocrite and that everything she has ever been taught about "Man's World" was a lie. They skirted this issue VERY closely in Fury but Diana never got to have an epiphany that Hippolyta may be a person who is full of bull----.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, Fone. I won't say I've read all the early talkbacks, certainly haven't posted in them, it seems a little like the audience were unsure of what was good and or bad about a very new Justice League Animated Series. The creators have more or less said that one of the reasons that Series 1 (again, in hindsight) might have fallen short was because they themselves had to go on a learning curve slightly. Oh, I agree completely. It's just that b.t. has gone on in numerous interviews about how fan criticisms were the reason season two was such an improvement. It's funny because this episode isn't any worse than Secret Origins or In Blackest Night but it IS the first one where people have actually really spoken out against the show.

Casey Mack

09-03-2005, 11:20 AM

Things like 'Superman was weak' I've always thought were a bit silly considering STAS, and his action scenes in these early JLs obviously 'paved the way' for more vicious fight scenes starring the Man of Steel that we get to see on average every third or fourth episode. ..
Its not that the man of steel was boring and weak, but in season 1 he seems to be a complete idiot probably the single dumbest charcter in cartoon history. If you dun agree with me, just wait till they replay "War world" thats the highlight of his season 1 stupidity:crying: .
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Style

09-03-2005, 02:28 PM

Fone Bone

09-03-2005, 02:43 PM

A slight at me? Absolutely not. You're critiques of JLU are positively glowing compared to some people's.

Well, maybe I was a bit harder on JLU season 3 (1, if you must) than I had to be, but I still feel it has some unevenness issues. And it's not just that I didn't like how the Cadmus arc ended: I really didn't like it at all at any stage of the game. But, I guess that was (literally) just me. But I still love you!

As for Hippolyta... I've always assumed that exile of Diana was something Hippolyta had to do because she felt that if she didn't that Hera would remove her protection from the island. And that in The Balance she was finally ready to risk that to bring her daughter home. Not a complete mitigation of what she did, but brings it in perspective a little more. I might be inclined to agree with that if in every single flippin's appearance Hippolyta has made she hadn't been portrayed as an Uber-----. In Secret Origins she tells Diana not to worry about stuff that happens off the island. And in Fury (which I think is very telling) she basically admits to Aresia that everything she had ever told her was a lie. Maybe it's good that she admitted it, but jeez, look what the lie almost did.

As for the episode... Still thought it was pretty good, but not only the fact that WW helps Faust but that the JL help her in doing so bring it down, IMO. I mean, couldn't Superman go ring up Dr. Fate and see if he could help un-stone-ify them? Yeah! And they should have used the transporters to beam the entire League down!:D

As for public opinion... While these episodes have proved not as good as I remembered, I still seem to recall that it was after "The Brave and The Bold," (but not including) that the show became almost difficult to watch from a quality stand point. (But I still don't know why people thought "Savagae Time" was any good.:sad: )Probably because Vandal Savage is the greatest JL villian ever. Sure, the episode was uneven but Savage rocks hard.

For some reason I felt JL season one improved as it went along. The Brave and the Bold is a nifty episode and A Knight of Shadows is better than I first remembered it due to all of the mystical stuff. I liked The Savage Time too, because despite being corny it was an old-fashioned adventure and I think the DCAU needs to occasionally kick it old school.

Style

09-03-2005, 02:55 PM

Probably because Vandal Savage is the greatest JL villian ever. Sure, the episode was uneven but Savage rocks hard. I can't argue with that. But I tend to think of "Maid of Honor" and "Hereafter" when I think of his "Greatest Hits," not so much "Savage time," (which he was a redemptive quality therein.)

Fone Bone

09-03-2005, 03:02 PM

Don't forget "Legends," which gets my vote for best Season 1 episode. It's clearly superior to "Savage Time," which I always thought was rather overrated (despite being a fun show).I had mixed feelings about Legends. I think the deal is that I tend to have a hard time dealing with alternate universes, especially ones where the main characters turn out not to be real. I probably would have enjoyed the episode more if I knew more about the Justice Society and what exactly the episode was spoofing. That said, it is a really well done episode and th e guest cast is excellent (even Ted McGinley!):D

I can't argue with that. But I tend to think of "Maid of Honor" and "Hereafter" when I think of his "Greatest Hits," not so much "Savage time," (which he was a redemptive quality therein.) That's fair, but I always keep in mind that TST is really more of a glimpse at him to make us want to learn more. At that, it exceeded beyond my wildest expectations. I think I like the episode more for the set-up than the execution.