Lasso of Truth cop out?

[Themysciran]

Having just read the article ahere at Toon Zone bout Diana's lasso, I have to say my initial reaction is, "What a cop out!"

Having a lasso which compels those bound within it to speak the truth is too easy to use apparently. Well, why not write it in the script only once in a while and not rely on that feature. It can be indestructible, just not truth-inducing all the time.

Wonder Woman is KNOWN for her 'magic lasso' being able to compel people to tell the truth.

Has Bruce Timm taken away other features of Wonder Woman which are intrinsic to the character? Does anyone have an inside scoop?

I'm pleased to see Diana again on television, but there always seems to be a price to pay.

Anyone else feel cheated?

Themysciran

[TheHuntressDiana]

I know the lasso has more powers than simply to compel people to speak the truth.

The fires of Hestia don't blaze for the fun of it...I know that.

Gah, where's my first issues when I need 'em (I'm at work)!?!?

[DisneyBoy]

I totally feel robbed here.


Then again, fans of Superman feel he has been reduced to a sissy, and Martian Manhunter fans feel he lost too much because of Superman's presence. All in all, it is, difficult to balance so much power. In all seriousness, though, if the JL had all of their powers, episodes would last about 5 minutes. Problem occurs, poof, it's solved!

But still, I think it would have been better to include the lasso of truth perhaps later on, as a sort of development in Wonder Woman's mission. Then again, on JL she doesn't even have a mission.... :mad:

[Themysciran]

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
I totally feel robbed here.


Then again, fans of Superman feel he has been reduced to a sissy, and Martian Manhunter fans feel he lost too much because of Superman's presence. All in all, it is, difficult to balance so much power. In all seriousness, though, if the JL had all of their powers, episodes would last about 5 minutes. Problem occurs, poof, it's solved!

But still, I think it would have been better to include the lasso of truth perhaps later on, as a sort of development in Wonder Woman's mission. Then again, on JL she doesn't even have a mission.... :mad:

Disney, I understand... Diana's lasso is an intrinsic part of who she is. Maybe they will give her lasso its power in the future...

[Blade1225]

maybe after todays episdoe, Athena will grant Diana the power!


Who knows??!! :D

[Themysciran]

Originally posted by Blade1225
maybe after todays episdoe, Athena will grant Diana the power!


Who knows??!! :D

Would be nice, wouldn't it... <sigh> We'll have to see.

[Karkull]

I'm kind of glad that they dropped it. If they used the Lasso of Truth it would run the risk of becoming a solve-all deus ex machina plot device.

[Themysciran]

Originally posted by Karkull
I'm kind of glad that they dropped it. If they used the Lasso of Truth it would run the risk of becoming a solve-all deus ex machina plot device.

Well, the writers don't have to MAKE it a desu ex machina plot device... after all, we have human writers creating this show. I see your point, though.

[TheHuntressDiana]

Originally posted by Karkull
I'm kind of glad that they dropped it. If they used the Lasso of Truth it would run the risk of becoming a solve-all deus ex machina plot device.

Na, they already have Batman for that. ;)

[Karkull]

Originally posted by TheHuntressDiana
Na, they already have Batman for that. ;)

LOL!

:D

[TheHuntressDiana]

Originally posted by Themysciran


Well, the writers don't have to MAKE it a desu ex machina plot device... after all, we have human writers creating this show. I see your point, though.

True, they don't...but it could be an easy trap to fall in to. But I'd only see that happening if they didn't go over some kind of "run down" on her powers.

If they went with one of the uses for the lasso that was in the comic, it would protect those within it's circle (if placed upon the ground) from beasts (it was an early Perez issue where Diana & Donna met for the first time), etc.

There are many other things that the lasso could be used for, besides making people speak the truth...

[Themysciran]

Originally posted by TheHuntressDiana


True, they don't...but it could be an easy trap to fall in to. But I'd only see that happening if they didn't go over some kind of "run down" on her powers.

If they went with one of the uses for the lasso that was in the lasso, it would protect those within it's circle (if placed upon the ground) from beasts (it was an early Perez issue where Diana & Donna met for the first time), etc.

There are many other things that the lasso could be used for, besides making people speak the truth...

I totally agree with you, Di, and maybe we will see other uses for the lasso in future shows. The protection aspect would be interesting.

[TheHuntressDiana]

I'll keep my fingers crossed Themy :)

[metaphysician]

It isn't a cop out to not have the lasso force truth. This is a separate continuity.

It WOULD be a cop-out for the lasso to force truth-telling, and then have them ignore that power repeatedly. Its called "plot-induced stupidity," and should be minimized where possible.

Its bad enough when people ask why MM doesn't just telepathically read peoples minds; it would be even worse trying to figure out why the lasso wasn't used, if there is no legitimate reason in-story. And the only way to do that would be to either create things that block it's power, repeatedly, or to not use plots where it is effective very often. The trouble is, such plots would ALSO prevent Batman from following his forte, investigation.

All in all, its a can of worms best not openned.

[Themysciran]

Originally posted by metaphysician
It isn't a cop out to not have the lasso force truth. This is a separate continuity.

It WOULD be a cop-out for the lasso to force truth-telling, and then have them ignore that power repeatedly. Its called "plot-induced stupidity," and should be minimized where possible.

Its bad enough when people ask why MM doesn't just telepathically read peoples minds; it would be even worse trying to figure out why the lasso wasn't used, if there is no legitimate reason in-story. And the only way to do that would be to either create things that block it's power, repeatedly, or to not use plots where it is effective very often. The trouble is, such plots would ALSO prevent Batman from following his forte, investigation.

All in all, its a can of worms best not openned.

meta, separate continuity notwithstanding, the lasso is known for its power... pehaps TPTB could limit its power? I'm not saying I wouldn't watch the show if they didn't make her lasso have its truth-drawing power, but it's just another little chip away at Diana. She gets so few spotlight events as it is. Hopefully tonight will change that.

And about the "plot-induced stupidity": in the WW comic, for example, Diana doesn't always use her lasso for the truth-evoking power in every issue. Sometimes it's just used to bind someone.

[kid_flash]

Okay, I have a big problem with anything that is only used part of the time. Where's the lasso's power the rest of the time? On vacation? Sh'yeah right.

Also, according the the wonderful comments of an inside source, Diana's lasso would make it too easy to solve cases. Right, and J'onn's telepathy WOULDN'T?

[Themysciran]

Originally posted by kid_flash
Okay, I have a big problem with anything that is only used part of the time. Where's the lasso's power the rest of the time? On vacation? Sh'yeah right.

Also, according the the wonderful comments of an inside source, Diana's lasso would make it too easy to solve cases. Right, and J'onn's telepathy WOULDN'T?

kid, it wouldn't be that the lasso's power wouldn't be there, it just wouldn't need to be used all the time. Diana does have other abilities.

Well, let's just see what the other episodes hold... maybe they'll surprise us.

[metaphysician]

Originally posted by Themysciran


kid, it wouldn't be that the lasso's power wouldn't be there, it just wouldn't need to be used all the time. Diana does have other abilities.

Well, let's just see what the other episodes hold... maybe they'll surprise us.

Yes, but thats not the point.

Diana doesn't have to be using the truth power constantly, but when faced with a mystery, its only logical that it WOULD be used.

Thus, you either:

-eliminate a large part of Batman's gig

-eliminate mysteries

-invoke character stupidity

PIS isn't when characters don't constantly use a given power, its when they don't use a power when it would be logical for them to do so.

Instant truth-detector would basically destroy mysteries, without very careful planning, and, frankly, doesn't really fit with her gig as a *warrior*.

[Dan Slott]

Over in the Justice League Adventures comic-- nobody told us that her lasso DIDN'T have it's "truth telling" component. The ABSENCE of its power wasn't in any of the show-related reference materials that I read! In fact, Ty Templeton uses the lasso's power as a KEY story point in ISSUE #1. And I know I use it in ISSUE #4 (coming out on Feb. 13), and I use it again in an issue that's already in the drawer! Basically, my take on it (for my own sanity-- because I do NOT want to take out the "truth" bit in my current story-- it's just too darn cool!) is that UNLESS THEY SPECIFICALLY SPELL IT OUT on the show that her lasso DOESN'T possess that power-- then it does, and we just don't see her use it in the cartoon. So there.

[Themysciran]

Originally posted by metaphysician


Yes, but thats not the point.

Diana doesn't have to be using the truth power constantly, but when faced with a mystery, its only logical that it WOULD be used.

Thus, you either:

-eliminate a large part of Batman's gig

-eliminate mysteries

-invoke character stupidity

PIS isn't when characters don't constantly use a given power, its when they don't use a power when it would be logical for them to do so.

Instant truth-detector would basically destroy mysteries, without very careful planning, and, frankly, doesn't really fit with her gig as a *warrior*.

I see your point, but I think the writers could work around it. ;)

[Crickett]

I don't feel cheated. They have powered down all of the members of the JLA, but so what? If I wanted to see the JLA have to face universe ending threats just so they don't completely out-class their opponents, I'd read the comic book. In fact, I do. :)

[GL2k2]

That is a shame. Because the creator of Wonder Woman also happens to be the man who developed the Lie Detector. I think he would have at least wanted a nod to that in his legacy.

[Spider]

Well, the lasso sure was used last night! Not the truth aspect, per se, but it was still great to see some of what it can do in Wonder Woman's hands. I loved Part I. :)

[Lucho]

I think it is most intrinsic to the character, and should definitely be used in the show. If the writers view it as a handicap to plot development than there might be a problem with the writing.
Knowing the truth shouldn’t always make things clearer or less complicated, and “extracting” the truth without consent should carry enough engaging, moral and ethical quandary. Two elements alone to give a good writer enough pathos and plot to add to any story or mystery. This “power” could certainly be used in more ways, with enough unconventional consequence, than deflecting bullets ever could.

To not use it only to give Batman something to do, again doesn’t bode well for the writers, If they are questioning or doubting what his role is on the team, then it could be reflecting on the show. His presence might come off as forced or contrived. Is he just there because he’s “supposed” to be? Yes it’s visually satisfying but that should never be enough.

Unfortunately, “cop out” seems the appropriate sentiment if the writers and fans so easily accept it. While some power-downs might be appropriate, I personally don’t think this is one of them.
I’m not the first to point out the writing isn’t what it could be, making things simpler might not always be the best solution.
Still, I do have hope, and as Dan Slott points out, he and others are using the “righteous lasso” in the books, and as he points out, it has not officially been ruled out of the show. It just hasn’t been explored yet. The show is still in its infancy and I do have faith in its creators and what’s still to come.

[killercroc]

Originally posted by metaphysician



PIS isn't when characters don't constantly use a given power, its when they don't use a power when it would be logical for them to do so.

Instant truth-detector would basically destroy mysteries, without very careful planning, and, frankly, doesn't really fit with her gig as a *warrior*.

A good example would be in last night's Paradise Lost when she was fighting Supes. When she lassoed him, she should have seen the truth. Would it have taken away from the episode? I don't really think so.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Dan Slott
Over in the Justice League Adventures comic-- nobody told us that her lasso DIDN'T have it's "truth telling" component. The ABSENCE of its power wasn't in any of the show-related reference materials that I read! In fact, Ty Templeton uses the lasso's power as a KEY story point in ISSUE #1. And I know I use it in ISSUE #4 (coming out on Feb. 13), and I use it again in an issue that's already in the drawer!

Sorry, but I just have to laugh ruefully at this. You just know that in a few years the fanboys will rediscover this inconsistency between the animated and comic continuities and be all over it. :rolleyes:

[Dan Slott]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


Sorry, but I just have to laugh ruefully at this. You just know that in a few years the fanboys will rediscover this inconsistency between the animated and comic continuities and be all over it. :rolleyes:

I don't really think there will be an inconsistancy. Other than Bruce Timm saying on-line that the lasso doesn't have the power, there's no evidence IN THE SHOW that the lasso DOES/OR DOESN'T have the power. And I doubt we'll ever see a line of dialogue in the show that reads...

DIANA: Oh Hera! If only my magic lasso could make people to tell the truth! But since it can't, I'm s--- outta luck!

So... In the comic her lasso DOES have the power. And in the show, her lasso COULD have the power.... We just don't see her use it. (In the same way that I don't think we've EVER seen Superman use his infra-red vision or super smell in the cartoons. Didn't mean that he didn't have them.)

Also, I was talking to Ty Templeton the other day and he actually REMEMBERS reading about Diana's lasso of truth in the series bible that we writers were given. I read the series bible as well... but don't have THAT specific a memory of it. So who knows?....

On another note... The comics can never be totally 100% perfectly in synch with the cartoons-- it's the nature of the beast. For example-- Remember the first time Superman showed up in the Batman Adventures comic? Lex Luthor had a full head of hair and a funky beard and Supes himself had shoulder length hair(like both characters had in their then current comic book continuity). At that time, there was no Superman cartoon so no one knew any better. (Remember, story-tellers are NOT prognosticators). Also, Batman: Mad Love (one of the BEST Batman stories ever written) was told first in the comics-- in the orginal B:TAS style. Later it was adapted into the cartoons and set in the later B:TAS style.
Does that make either of the comics less viable? In a strict die-hard, super-rigid continuity sense... yes. Let's be honest. But in all the ways that REALLY matter: readability and enjoyment-- they will always be valid. Why? Because they're fun! They're good reads! And that's all that counts.

Whew! Talk to you later...
Dan
(currently disembarking from the land of soapboxes-- in a very humble fashion)

[Maxie Zeus]

Great post, Dan!

I don't care about continuity at all, especially between comics and animated. But some people do, and I think we should tuck your discussion away for future reference when they start talking about any continuity problems between an animated series and its comic-book spin-offs.

On a more substantive note: I like the suggestion that the lasso could have the power in the show, but I'm not sure that works out for the best.

Take "The Enemy Below." Deadshot refuses to say who hired him. It's a perfect opportunity for the "lasso of truth" to come into play. It doesn't. How to explain this? Well, it looks like there are only 2 possibilities:

1. The lasso has the power, but Diana suffers from a case of Plot Induced Stupidity.
2. The lasso hasn't got this power.

I like Diana and don't like PIS, so I would lean toward the 2nd as the "better" explanation. :)

[MattL.]

Being a Wonder Woman fan myself, I can understand the feeling.

However, I think I see why this change was made and I think the compromise actually works.

There have been alot of instances in comics both mainlineand not, where they have felt the need to give Wonder Woman some sort of offense type weapon. Useally opting for a sword and sheild.

Yet, even though shes an amazon, having as a sword weilding Xena type goes against the very idea of the chracter.

I think Bruce Timm solves this problem nicely by makeing the lasso her weapon. As a weapon its uniqe and elegant which befits Diana.

Now, the problem though is that if its a Lasso of Truth, then it cant function as a weapon because whoever she wraps it around will be stopped and under her power. Therefore, fights over.

The Lasso as just a damn good lasso helps to maximize her as an action character which for the purpose of this anime she is.

I'm just glad they didnt do something really stupid like decide not include the lasso at all.

[Themysciran]

I can see your point. I guess I just want my cake and eat it too. ;)

[GL2k2]

I think the best thing they can do is have her discover its power. Remember, she is "new", she isn't the Wonder Woman who has been kicking butt for like fifty years in comics. Maybe on the next Wonder Woman episode, where they'll hopefully introduce Cheetah, they'll have her discover the Lasso's power. But, at least, that's what I would do.

[Tim Drake]

I don't understand why people are so upset about Wonder Woman's lasso not being a lasso of truth. Maybe because I'm not a hardcore Wonder Woman fan. DC animated has done several things not consistent with DC Comics, but for the most part I believe that they have been good choices. I could be mistaken but Mr. Freeze didn't have a dying wife till BTAS. I know Freeze didn't have one in the Adam West series at least.

On a semi-related note. It seems that the people doing Justice League Adventures haven't really done their homework. In issue 1 Wonder Woman has a lasso of truth. And consistently through the series Green Lantern has the power to create objects like pillows, bats, pincers etc. with his ring. We all know that he creates in JL is beams, walls, and shields.

[kid_flash]

Personally, I just hate JL Adventures and ignore it at all costs.

And GL does have the power to create things other than beams and shields and such, but as me and numerous others have said, it's just not what he does.

[Lucho]

Well I like the show, and I don’t mean to drag this on but I’d like to explain why it's significant to me.

I don’t think it’s so much the fact that they’re not using it, but the reason we’ve been told they aren’t using it.
Like many, I agree the changes have predominantly been good, taking the best of what is intrinsic to the characters and removing things that don’t delineate or help make the character unique to the group dynamic. A sort of narrative stylizing to match the visual style.

Most reasons we’ve been given for any change seem to justify the ends, as they’ve delivered a show that feels true to the characters and new at the same time. This includes Wonder Woman, who is fine the way she is, Lasso or not.

The question posed at the start of this thread was; “Lasso of Truth cop-out?”
And the reason for it, we’ve been told is;

“Easy - it would make the mysteries to simple to solve if they could just use the Lasso.”

Like I said above; making things simpler might not always be the best solution. The sentiment in that quote seems a bit too easy and convenient,. Unlike say…removing Manhunters heat vision or choosing Stewart over yet another white male hero, two choices obviously meant to make the characters stand out.
The lasso of truth is already exclusive to WW, weather it’s intrinsic will always be debatable (but everyone knows it is). But to remove it, just so they don’t have to deal with its uncompromising attributes?.
It’s not only a cop-out, but also a shame. Especially, since the very nature of the inimitable object they wish to ignore is exactly what makes it so engaging. Something several episodes are most severally lacking.

[Lucho]

Ugh!, I’ve just re-read both my posts in this thread ,and neither of them make much sense. I’m no writer. Soooo…the NEW point is! I’ve probably put more thought into why they should keep the lasso, than it would seem the writers did into deciding to drop it…blah! :p

Make sense?

[Tim Drake]

actually.......... it does!!

[Karkull]

Maybe another reason that the Lasso of Truth was dropped was because it's become a joke. Remember those Cartoon Network spots with "Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth?" In a way, her being known from Superfriends as "the chick with the Lasso of Truth" is just as bad as Aquaman being "that dude who can only talk to fish."

[Lucho]

I’m not sure what the “joke” is exactly, but if that’s the case ignoring it may only serve to reinforce it.
To their credit Aquaman, is something they could have ignored altogether. Instead they tackled full force in one of their strongest episodes to date.
Not only debunking the “can only talk to fish” scenario, but taking what was until then; a pretty week attempt too at least visually invigorate the character (the infamous “shirtless, beard, hook-handed look”). And reworking it into something poignant.
In the end Wonder Woman (lasso of truth intact) will long survive this show and anyone working on, or watching it today.
I admit, this is a minor quibble, it’s more of a missed opportunity thing. Their take on Wonder Woman is undeniably enchanting.

[DerekPowers]

honestly, my first reaction was "its a cop-out" as well. they could be creative and not use the lasso for truth all the time, plus the "truth" isnt always what is preventing the JL from solving problems. it just seems like the truth aspect was dropped cause it was too inconvienent to think of reasons why ww wouldnt use it all the time, and thats a big cop out, cause its not that hard to work around it. just my opinion.

[metaphysician]

Originally posted by DerekPowers
honestly, my first reaction was "its a cop-out" as well. they could be creative and not use the lasso for truth all the time, plus the "truth" isnt always what is preventing the JL from solving problems. it just seems like the truth aspect was dropped cause it was too inconvienent to think of reasons why ww wouldnt use it all the time, and thats a big cop out, cause its not that hard to work around it. just my opinion.

But thats just it: to have her not use the lasso when useful would be the cop-out, because THAT is what would be in conflict with continuity.

DOWN WITH PLOT-INDUCED STUPIDITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lucho]

Now why couldn’t I state it as concisely as DerekPowers did?

And if the writers are unwilling or unable to explore the intricacies and challenge of this unique power, than perhaps it’s best they dropped it, and avoid the PIS as you call it.
If the simple notion that Knowing the truth doesn’t always make things clearer or less complicated is lost on them, than it's for the best.

[Maxie Zeus]

I give them credit for seeing that putting in the lasso could lead to outbreaks of PIS. Still, it doesn't say much for their self-confidence that they chose to avoid the challenge rather than tackle it. :rolleyes: