Problems with American animation

[Zack]

I don't know if this topic has duplicated over and over again, but I want some people here to post the opinions about the problems with American animation these days.

Some problems may be that much of adult animation is mostly comedies, the serious action/adventure stuff is aimed at children and the only drama you'll find in American animation is in the action/adventure cartoons.

Does anyone think that American animation could get out of these problems and become something different these days? :confused:

[Gokou Ruri]

People prefer live action when it comes to drama and action. No sense in animating something like 24, Lost, or Prison Break if you ask me.

[Zack]

Yeah, you have a point. Much of the serious American television series will always be made live-action. But I guess when you can simply import a dramatic cartoon series (such as an anime), there's no need to waste millions of dollars on making your own drama cartoon.

[Gokou Ruri]

But I guess when you can simply import a dramatic cartoon series (such as an anime), there's no need to waste millions of dollars on making your own drama cartoon. I can't really think of the last time I've seen a drama anime air on television. Maybe on G4, or Sci-Fi, or some channel I don't get. But basic broadcast and cable seem to be all kids anime.

[btv]

american animation, in my view, hasn't taken a step to just doing a boldly dramatic and refreshing non-comedy series yet. It may happen soon, but still, everything's still just comedy.

[Dr.Pepper]

In America cartoons are viewed as something for kids.

[EscaflownePilot]

I don't think it's so much that people think animation is for kids anymore so much as adults simply can't take animation seriously. Either its kids stuff, or it's self-referential and funny like The Simpsons, Family Guy, or South Park.

This could change if handled right, I think, but nobody seems at all willing to try - not even Adult Swim. The closest we're getting at this point is that Hannibal show on BET, it seems.

I honestly think all it will take is some iconic character - Superman, Batman, Spiderman - to get a high budget, high quality episodic but serious, dark and bloody action cartoon on one of the major networks (Fox or The CW being most suited, I think) and adults will warm up to serious action cartoons. But anything short of that will only keep the medium in the niche, IMO.

I'd like to see it happen, but I don't think anyone is willing to risk it.


People prefer live action when it comes to drama and action. No sense in animating something like 24, Lost, or Prison Break if you ask me.I honestly don't see why so many people use those three series in this kind of debate. I think at least 24 and Prison Break would translate VERY well into animation with a few tweaks, if not also Lost. If you're going to use an example of where animation can't be applied, at least use something like Desperate Housewives or One Tree Hill.

[Gokou Ruri]

I honestly don't see why so many people use those three series in this kind of debate. I think at least 24 and Prison Break would translate VERY well into animation with a few tweaks, if not also Lost. If you're going to use an example of where animation can't be applied, at least use something like Desperate Housewives or One Tree Hill. Animation is at an automatic disadvantage when it comes to drama and expressing emotion. Live action just has much more detail because it is, essencially, reality. The subtle gestures you find on the human face during dialog and acting can do wonders in conveying emotion more than a 2D drawing can. No matter how talented voice actors may be, the human body expresses more emotion than a simple voice alone.

If 24 was animated, I would probably like it a lot less. The whole premise is around realism (real time format, taking place in present day America, threats that could actually happen, etc). Using animation would throw a lot of the realism out of the window. Sure, it could still be done in realtime format, but it loses its impact in animated form. Also, short of CGI, animation is extremely hard to make look realistic. (Not to mention the possibilities of being off-model, choppy animation, and other factors that aren't a problem in live action)

That's why most American comics (DC, Marvel, Vertigo) tend to use a more realistic art style that actually resembles humans, as opposed to a caricaturistic style like Spongebob, or manga. They are essencially realism in comic form (granted, the comics for kids are done in a more cartoony style, like Archie, but the adult comics are made as realistically as possible since that's what people want)

In general, animation is used when it would be impossible to use live action. That's why all the crazy, comedic cartoons are animated. Talking anthromorphic sponges would look pretty disturbing in real life, but it works in animated form. Also hitting people with sledgehammers in real life don't give us the desired effect as a cartoon mouse hitting a cartoon cat with one.

Japan is at a difficult position, though. Their live action industry isn't that great, which is why animation is used a lot over there. Shows like Cowboy Bebop, Monster, or Slayers would be easy to do in America, but in Japan they're pretty impossible to make, so animation is used instead. Since America is at an advantage, I see no reason why we should limit ourselves to using animation for shows like 24, Seinfeld, or even Zoey 101 which are perfect for live action.

So in the end, there really is no problem with American animation; only the people who view the media industry as black and white.

[EscaflownePilot]

Animation is at an automatic disadvantage when it comes to drama and expressing emotion. Live action just has much more detail because it is, essencially, reality. The subtle gestures you find on the human face during dialog and acting can do wonders in conveying emotion more than a 2D drawing can. No matter how talented voice actors may be, the human body expresses more emotion than a simple voice alone.

...

So in the end, there really is no problem with American animation; only the people who view the media industry as black and white.It sounds to me as though you view it as black and white as much as anybody.

24 works great as a live-action show for sure, but it also particularly thrives on high-action gun fights and exotic locales - things that easily translate into animation.

Yes, there's the whole "no cartoon can ever completely capture the raw expression of a good actor" argument, but that's a rather apples and oranges comparison if you ask me. Ultimately, animation can acheive the same effect of a live actor if animated properly with the right exaggerations to achieve the expression. Is it the same as a live actor? Of course not! But it can serve the story quite similarly - it can achieve roughly the same effect as live action through completely different means. I'm not saying 24 could or should directly translate into animation as is, but I do believe with a few tweaks it could be very enjoyable as an animated property, and to flatout say that it wouldn't work or that it wouldn't be worth watching is to completely take credibility away from the art form of animation. An animated 24 wouldn't be the same as a live-action 24, but it could be every bit as enjoyable in different ways.

I'm not arguing that anybody "limit" themselves exclusively to animation, but you basically say that as though we should limit everything that isn't Spongebob to live-action. Live-action and animation are completely different mediums, one not being any bit better than the other. Certain settings and stories might be much easier or natural in one medium vs. the other, but to say that one type of story is ONLY suited for one medium, and another story type ONLY suited to the other is not only to limit each respective art form, but to completely demean both. 24 is much more natural and easier to do as a live-action, but with the right execution could be just as entertaining as an animated series.

But ultimately, the viewpoint you have is the very viewpoint that limits all of the serious stories we have in America exclusively to live-action. You may be willing to take some anime seriously, but ultimately you don't seem to give animation much credit, and that's exactly why we might never see animation advance to new territory in the US, which to an animation lover like myself, is quite a sad thing.

[The Overlord]

I wish Adult swim would take more chances and create an American made drama series for adults. I heard Fox was going to air an Daredevil cartoon aimed at adults, but Marvel didn't give the go the ahead for some stupid reason. I would love if Adult Swim picked up this idea.

[Ghostbuster Man]

Well to be honest, The first problem with American animation is that everyone thinks it was origanaly aimed at children but it started out by being made for adults (except for Disney Animation). Look at Looney Tunes,Tom & Jerry,The Flintstones,The Simpsons, and most of the Anime we get. None of those were ever ment for children and half of the industry try to aim it at them anyway.

Secondly, I think there is to much cenosrship when it comes to the older
animation and international animation. They hardly ever show anything uncensored on tv anymore including the animation.

Third, half of the animation franchises being made these days have been
made with a heavily syndical view of the world by adding horrible parodies,
god-awful humor, mean and horrific characters, having no respect for any
of the old classics or our country for that matter, and most importaintly
never making any good endings in any of there episodes or gettting the mean
characters there kummupins.

[RAINMAN]

I could careless if a show is adult or kiddie. I just wnat something that is truly good or watchabile.

[The Overlord]

I could careless if a show is adult or kiddie. I just wnat something that is truly good or watchabile.

Perhaps, but variety is the spice of life.

[tb4000]

I long for the days of HBO Spawn. That was a show my dad and I used to watch, and he was never a big cartoon fan. If they could bring something like that to Adult Swim, I think it would do pretty well.

[Gokou Ruri]

Ultimately, animation can acheive the same effect of a live actor if animated properly with the right exaggerations to achieve the expressionTheoretically, yes, though I've yet to see one myself. Disney movies can be emotional, of course, but I've been moved more by certian live action shows more than them. Anime is a bit different, due to the cultural difference between Japan and the rest of the world. While it might be normal to tell a joke, or make big Tex Avery-styled facial expressions after a serious moment over there, it comes off as awkward and jarring in the Western world; especially to me. Like I said before, you also have to worry about animation, going off model, and numerous other things that can bring animation down.


An animated 24 wouldn't be the same as a live-action 24, but it could be every bit as enjoyable in different ways. It extremely depends on the "different ways" its enjoyable. The drama is the main factor on why 24 is so popular (considering the action scenes are far and few inbetween), and live action is at an advantage for drama. Now, as long as the animation and art isn't bad, sure, the action could be good in the show, but for the people who watch it for drama instead of action, it's not going to be as enjoyable if the drama takes a hit. It could probably do comedy better in cartoon form, but nobody watches 24 for comedy, because it has none.


You may be willing to take some anime seriously, but ultimately you don't seem to give animation much credit, and that's exactly why we might never see animation advance to new territory in the US, which to an animation lover like myself, is quite a sad thing. I give animation plenty of credit, I love the medium as well, but as I said, aside from technical aspects why should shows like Monster be animated? There is no point to it, outside of Japan not being in a position to make it live action because of their live action industry. Now, something like The Simpsons I can see because they get into a lot of bizzare situations that would be awkard for a live-action sitcom, but stuff like Monster, Nana, and Cowboy Bebop, you can easily turn it into live action and benefit from real actors acting it out.

That's how the world thinks as a whole, even Japan (which is why American live action movies dominate the box offices over there, along with numerous other countries). Japan also thinks animation is mainly for kids (which is why most anime is made for a younger demographic, and why people liking anime beyond high school is looked down upon over there). It has nothing to do with America, Europe, Africa, or Iraq, that's the way humans nartually think.

[FinnMacCool]

Personally, I think that, in the right hands, animation can be just as dramatic as live-action, but a lot of the responsibility goes to the director, as I've found the most dramatic scenes in anime usually utilize many things like flashbacks and unusual "camera" techniques (such as in the episode of Naruto where Hinata is injured, and the camera pans up her prostrate body three times, each time getting closer, or the final episode of Samurai Champloo where Mugen almost dying involves a bizarre glimpse of the afterlife).

[The Weed Of Cri]

Some problems may be that much of adult animation is mostly comedies, the serious action/adventure stuff is aimed at children and the only drama you'll find in American animation is in the action/adventure cartoons. :confused:

My main problem with so-called "adult" animation in America is that the humor in them is often puerile and juvenile, leaning heavily on gross-out gags, frat boy humor, and pop-tart politics (ooh...a rich white guy...he must be bad).

[Simon Trent]

My main problem with so-called "adult" animation in America is that the humor in them is often puerile and juvenile, leaning heavily on gross-out gags, frat boy humor, and pop-tart politics (ooh...a rich white guy...he must be bad).

Well, yeah, because they're not really catering to "adults" but to teenagers [around 15-17] who want to feel edgy and cool without having to leave the comfort of their sofa. I'm willing to bet that most of Family Guy's and Drawn Together's audience are teenagers.

[Gokou Ruri]

I'm willing to bet that most of Family Guy's and Drawn Together's audience are teenagers. According to a recent ratings demographic chart, 5.87 Million people over 18 watch Family Guy while 1.35 million people between the ages of 12 - 17 watch it. :sweat:

No idea for Drawn Together, since there's no new episodes.

[Anarky]

hmmm, ABC adapted Spanish novela Betty La Fea into Ugly Betty.
longshot but I wonder if some cable network would try to adapt Cowboy Bebop into a live-action series. Many of us remember the parody film poster from a few yrs ago.

[Gokou Ruri]

hmmm, ABC adapted Spanish novela Betty La Fea into Ugly Betty.
longshot but I wonder if some cable network would try to adapt Cowboy Bebop into a live-action series. Many of us remember the parody film poster from a few yrs ago. Aren't they making a live-action Monster movie? Live action tends to be the prefered medium for comic book movies (V for Vendetta, Batman Begins, Sin City, From Hell, A History of Violence, etc...) so it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Golgo13]

My view on American animation history:

1970's: Animation on a budget.
1980's: Animation with marketing.
1990's: Animation made by animators.
2000's: See 1980's.

[Dudley]

When was the last time we had an animated movie that was action packed and adventurous?

[Golgo13]

When was the last time we had an animated movie that was action packed and adventurous?

The Incredibles?

[Zam]

The Incredibles?

That´s more a 3d parody, how about:

http://www.impawards.com/2000/posters/titan_ae.jpg

[Gokou Ruri]

Treasure Planet in 2002?

[Ykwia]

Animatrix?

[Golgo13]

That´s more a 3d parody

Parody or not, action is action and The Incredibles was pretty darn good for an animated action film.

[Henk55]

Treasure Planet in 2002?

According to the wikipedia list, Treasure Planet is the biggest box office bomb of ALL TIME. It says something, doesn't it?

[Golgo13]

According to the wikipedia list, Treasure Planet is the biggest box office bomb of ALL TIME. It says something, doesn't it?

Wanna know another fun fact about Treasure Planet?

It opened the same time Disney was opening Spirited Away for a limited release. Spirited Away made more money appearing in only 400 theaters than Treasure Planet did appearing in 4000 theaters.

[Kitschensyngk]

The problem with American animation is that no one takes risks anymore, and those that DO take risks don't last very long/buckle under pressure from the people in charge.

Ren and Stimpy took risks. John K was fired and the show went on without him.

Invader Zim took risks. That show was cancelled after two seasons.

I think it's the people who are in charge of CN/Nick/Disney that are to blame for this decline, mainly because they shove their more "threatening" shows to the back of the closet while churning out "safer" programs like Spongebob and My Gym Partner's a Monkey.

[HG Revolution]

When was the last time we had an animated movie that was action packed and adventurous?

Actually, just a few days ago, when Rennaisance opened (it'll be getting a wider release soon). I haven't seen it, but based off the trailers and plot summary it seems to be very action-packed (don't know about "adventurous" though). If motion capture doesn't count as animation, we can backtrack to August with the Fullmetal Alchemist movie, and then in terms of American animation we had The Incredibles back in 2004 (which I saw as less of a parody and more of an action film that just happened to be very funny).


I give animation plenty of credit, I love the medium as well, but as I said, aside from technical aspects why should shows like Monster be animated? There is no point to it, outside of Japan not being in a position to make it live action because of their live action industry. Now, something like The Simpsons I can see because they get into a lot of bizzare situations that would be awkard for a live-action sitcom, but stuff like Monster, Nana, and Cowboy Bebop, you can easily turn it into live action and benefit from real actors acting it out.

I agree with you on Monster and Nana (Monster was almost painful to watch due to the poor animation, while Nana did get a big budget live-action movie in Japan), but I have to disagree with you on Cowboy Bebop. Yes, it could work with live-actors, but it would need a lot of special effects, and most special effects are essentially animation. The usage of full animation in Cowboy Bebop not only was easier technically, but the show is staged in a unique way that would have been hard for live-action to accomplish, especially in the action scenes. Perhaps if the character animation was Monster-quality it might have been preferable to see in live-action, but the characters in Bebop are expressive enough to get across whatever drama they had to. Its not as expressive as a great live actor's performance, but most of the atmosphere in Bebop came more from the cool settings than the acting, and the settings are something which live-action could not achieve without a crapload of special effects. I might like a live-action Bebop, but it would be for different reasons than I like the animated one.

[Gokou Ruri]

I consider Incredibles more of a homage than a parody.


Invader Zim took risks. That show was cancelled after two seasons. That was due to poor ratings, though, not whatever risks it took (though I guess you could say that it alienated the target audience...)


I might like a live-action Bebop, but it would be for different reasons than I like the animated one.

That's completely understandable.

On some closing notes for this subject, if anyone has seen me argue my points on the subject before, I am heavily against comparing American and Japanese animation. There is just too many different factors to fairly compare them. If you want to compare them, you need to include all of the countries media to each other (books, comics, shows [LA and animated], and movies, to the other countries books, comics, shows, and movies)

Too many factors to just look at one small part of the media.

[The Weed Of Cri]

According to the wikipedia list, Treasure Planet is the biggest box office bomb of ALL TIME. It says something, doesn't it?

Mostly, it says you can't trust what you read in Wikipedia. Treasure Planet doesn't even come close to the biggest bomb of all time. It's net loss, based on domestic box office revenue alone (not counting foreign ticket sales and home video revenue), was about $75,000,000. Compare that to:

Waterworld: Net loss: $78,000,000
The Wild Wild West: Net loss: $82,000,000
The Alamo: Net loss: $85,000,000
Son of the Mask: Net loss: $103,000,000
Alexander: Net loss: $133,000,000

[Kaoru]

From current information I like the psuedo-anime mouth animation and popular flash animation. The thing is American animation evolves all the time, but anime stays pretty much the same and everyone still loves it (at least for the animation).

[HG Revolution]

From current information I like the psuedo-anime mouth animation and popular flash animation. The thing is American animation evolves all the time, but anime stays pretty much the same and everyone still loves it (at least for the animation).

American animation has DEVOLVED on several occasions. Most of the progress in the '90s was less of a huge breakthrough (outside of some technical achievements like Toy Story and The Nightmare Before Christmas) and more of getting back to where we were in the '40s.

And anime has changed over time. I'm certain you must see a string of changes over time when jumping from Gigantor, to Gundam, to Evangelion.

[tb4000]

Titan A.E. was one that had slight bouts of humor but was pretty mature as far as subject matter. That came from Bluth's direction coupled with Ben Edlund and Joss Whedon's script though.

[Kaoru]

American animation has DEVOLVED on several occasions. Most of the progress in the '90s was less of a huge breakthrough (outside of some technical achievements like Toy Story and The Nightmare Before Christmas) and more of getting back to where we were in the '40s.

And anime has changed over time. I'm certain you must see a string of changes over time when jumping from Gigantor, to Gundam, to Evangelion. Well compared to the 1940's frame-filler cartoons it has devolved budget or funding wise, and a thing about the 80's and 90's I like is the lack of 3D animation (which made rare 3D shows such as new Johnny Quest unique). Everything befoore 2k's and 80's was certainly under-budget, but at least these days it's because of the variety which is good. I simply used the word "evolved" for the lack of a better term, and there are good features of animation changing unlike finding ways to spend less money, like different shows having their own unique styles.

And I didn't follow anime for a long time so I don't know how it's changed.

[EscaflownePilot]

I give animation plenty of credit, I love the medium as well, but as I said, aside from technical aspects why should shows like Monster be animated?For the same reason an artist might do something in charcoal rather than pencil - just for the sake of doing it so.

Sometimes doing something in a medium other than what's most commonly done or what's easiest and most natural, and making it work, is reason enough for it to be done. I don't expect the general populace to understand that anytime soon, but I would expect animation fans to see the value in that, and I think with the right exposure to a serious animated drama, a portion of the mainstream audience could become much more appreciative of animation.

Yes, Monster could be very easily shot in Germany with live actors and turned out very well, but I have yet to show a single person the first episode or so of Monster and not see them be impressed by it. Surely anybody, animation lover or not, can appreciate just how dramatic Monster is despite being not only animated, but with only the limited budget a Japanese TV show affords. To take all that away from the show simply because the show could be done more easily and naturally in live-action seems very narrowminded to me.

Ultimately, like what HG Revolution said, I'm not saying a live-action version of any of these shows would be inherently better or worse simply because they're done in live-action, but rather that they would be enjoyable for different reasons, and it's because of that that I find animated versions of shows like Nana or Monster to be perfectly valid works. I don't see things that should have been done in live-action because they're dramatic - I see just plain and simply great, dramatic storylines that just happen to be animated.

And that's why I'd like to see more dramatic adult targetted animation hit the states - so that more people could adapt that same attitude, rather than narrow-mindedly avoiding animation simply because it's animated.

[Pc-Famicom64]

My view on American animation history:

1970's: Animation on a budget.
1980's: Animation with marketing.
1990's: Animation made by animators.
2000's: See 1980's.You tend to be right about the 1970's, but hears a more real pont of it.

1980's: Animation made by companys who make animes (not alot of stuff was ship off to South Korea at the time, and the only company who mosty ship the stuff off to Taiwan (Taiwan was was used evein less then South Korea out side of Hanna Barbera) was Hanna Barbera being shiped off to Wang).

1990's: Animation made by Koreans (some stuff was still ship off to Japan, and others off to Taiwan, but then & now it's mostly shiped off to South Korea).

2000's: Same as the 1990's but with much more Computers (almost all CGI stuff made in the US, is done in the US).

[HG Revolution]

And I didn't follow anime for a long time so I don't know how it's changed.

I haven't either, but I've seen both old and new shows and know my history. Here's a bit more depth into the examples I gave before:

1962: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=1293
1979: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=46
1995: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=49

[Wussycat]

I'll tell you what's wrong with American cartoons; over-reliance on toilet humour.

[Gokou Ruri]

I don't see things that should have been done in live-action because they're dramatic - I see just plain and simply great, dramatic storylines that just happen to be animated. That's a good view to look at things, I try to share a similar view. I'm just curious why some people think they should go out of their way to animate something when the only reason Japan does it is due to technical aspects. I can accept that answer, though.

That view also leads into another problem with certian people. The opposite can also apply to the reverse view. There's a lot of anime fans (or just people in general) who hate American cartoons because Spongebob is cartoony, My Gym Partner Is a Monkey is childish, and Ren and Stimpy is immature. They expect American animation to be the same as Monster, when the only reason Monster is animated is because Japan can't shoot it in live action, so Japanese cartoons have all the crazy, cartoony shows that work well in animation, to all the serious and mature series as well. They don't compare Monster to American novels, comic books, or live action movies and shows, they only focus on the animation aspect for both shows. Instead of people comparing Japanese cartoons to American cartoons, we should compare Japanese cartoons to American television in general. However, we also can't forget that a good majority of anime are based off manga, so we then have to look at American comics (which have plenty of serious and mature stories). However, there lies another problem, manga makes up more of a market than books do in Japan, while books make up more of the market in America than comics, so we have to factor in American books (and there's a lot of them) with plenty of mature stories to tell. So after we do all that, there's no shortage of mature stories to tell in America.

But in the end, like you said, some people only look at something being animated when the American and Japanese media industry is far from such a simple thing of "cartoons VS cartoons"