Return of "The Eschatology of Barbara Gordon" [Archive]

Maxie Zeus

09-23-2006, 06:15 PM

The subject of Barbara Gordon’s relationship with Batman gets brought up a lot. The Old Maid, however, has had a special interest in the topic, because she has for a long time thought and written about the women in the Batman universe. (See, for instance, Target Characters in Batman Beyond, Part 1 (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/sections/fanworks/edits/procon/procon7a.php); Target Characters in Batman Beyond, Part 2 (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/sections/fanworks/edits/procon/procon7b.php); and Wertham’s Ghost (http://anbat.toonzone.net/essays/wg1.html).) As she noted in Just desserts: The eschatology of Barbara Gordon and how MotB changed her (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=110999), the affair (if there was one) between Barbara and Bruce is profoundly revealing in two directions: It illuminates the characters, but reactions to that affair also reveal a great deal about fandom itself.

The Old Maid started by calling Batgirl “the Teflon Bat.”

Nothing sticks to her, not even things that probably should. …Whatever the explanation a subtle double standard exists, and it protects Barbara's character from the kind of scrutiny applied to the Batboys. Let a fanboy (however drooling a fanboy one may be) critique her character -- let alone criticize her specific actions -- and that fanboy is assumed to dislike her. … As a result fanboys who like the purported Bruce/Barbara relationship claim it is better and/or more real than any other in her life ; fanboys who dislike the idea insist there has got to be a better way for her to get our attention.

The double standard that gets applied to Barbara, she wrote, is most apparent when you look at this affair and at reactions to it. Before she hooked up with Bruce, after all, Barbara had been seriously involved with Dick Grayson.

On the one hand Barbara goes around telling people that she and Dick were not old enough or mature enough to have a real relationship. Ah, but simultaneously Barbara is old enough and mature enough to pursue a relationship with the Batman?

On the other hand, if Barbara is old enough and mature enough to pursue a relationship with Batman, then she is also old enough to be held accountable for her actions -- to take responsibility for the way she treated Dick.

Whichever way this double standard is resolved, Barbara ends up not looking so good—though it’s not clear that Bruce himself winds up looking much better.

But Barbara’s story doesn’t end with The New Batman Adventures; unlike Grayson, she returned in Batman Beyond, where she is older and much more cynical and contemptuous of caped crusading. In fact, it even looks like she has a vendetta against Terry McGinnis, the new Batman. Terry recognizes that at least some of that hostility is displaced from its real target—the old Bruce Wayne—which by itself suggests that some kind of soured relationship with the Batman had had a profoundly negative affect upon Barbara.

So, when you look at the animated Barbara Gordon, as she exists across three different cartoon series, you see a character who has undergone some pretty radical evolutions—more radical than those undergone by her one-time boss. (There were even changes in the character between BTAS and TNBA: The Old Maid quotes one fan sarcastically wondering if Barbara got a lobotomy at some point between the two series.) And this naturally invites speculation about what caused these changes, and to what extent the putative affair between her and the Batman was one of the causes.

In weighing this kind of question, there are two general approaches you might make: You can try to rely dispassionately upon evidence and reason, or you can rely upon your own preferences (a kind of wish fulfillment) to tell you what you think happened. The Old Maid invited readers to figure out the degree to which they were being led by reason or emotion by posting a poll, four of the questions of which asked people to report their attitude about the possibility that Barbara and Bruce had once been “an item”:

1. MOTB [Mystery of the Batwoman showed us Bruce & Barbara had/will have a relationship; this makes me happy because I like the idea of their romance.

2. MOTB showed us that Bruce & Barbara had/will have a romance; this makes me unhappy because I dislike the idea of their romance.

3. MOTB showed us that Barbara has an unrequited crush on Batman; this makes me happy because I dislike the idea of a real romance.

4. MOTB showed us that Barbara has an unrequited crush on Batman; this makes me unhappy because I like the idea of a real romance.

Those who chose options 2 or 4 (in which beliefs run counter to preferences) can be taken as showing that they are relying upon evidence and reason; those who take options 1 and 3 (in which beliefs and preferences coincide) may also be relying upon evidence and reason, but might also be influenced by wish-fulfillment. It was up to those who took either of those options to argue forcefully for the evidence for their beliefs.

The poll included two other options, but there is actually one other undiscussed option:

5. There is insufficient evidence in any of the series to show that Barbara and Bruce had a romance.

Those who believed that there was in fact a romance between Barbara and Bruce were further invited to characterize the nature and course of that romance. Did come about through “mutual consent,” with each partner freely choosing to get into it? Or did one of them push the other into it?

In her original post, The Old Maid concentrated on a specific scene (the only one involving Barbara) in Mystery of the Batwoman, because it’s the only scene in the entire Timmverse Batman where we see a moment that is close in time to the relationship. It is, thus, the closest we have gotten to seeing the relationship itself and what it meant to each of the partners. To fully understand and interpret that scene, though, requires that the viewer attend much more that has gone on before or will happen afterward. Thus, The Old Maid carefully examined not only what Bruce and Barbara said, but what Alfred and Tim (who were also present) had to say; she also stressed the ways that that scene could (or could not) connect with what Commissioner Babs had to say in Batman Beyond and how that scene should be read in conjunction with the fantasies that Barbara revealed (to the audience) in BTAS’s “Batgirl Returns.” She closed with a quiz that would (at its best) lead other viewers into making the same kind of careful arguments and interpretations that she had offered.

Maxie Zeus

09-23-2006, 06:16 PM

The Old Maid took as the key to her discussion the telephone scene in Mystery of the Batwoman, and asked, What stage of the relationship are we seeing here?

But she framed it in a particular way, borrowing from theology some technical terms:

One of my "real world" tasks of late has been to wade through Christian eschatological thought, of all things. Although I wouldn't stretch the metaphor too far, a few borrowed terms might help us organize the new nuances that Batwoman brought to Barbara's character and situation.

(You already know one term : "dispensationalism," which underpins a famous series of doomsday novels and explains the many faces of Batman Beyond's Dana Tan. Her boyfriend Terry McGinnis is presented with a Dana, neglects her, is presented with a new Dana and neglects her, etcetera. The point is to demonstrate that no matter how many times Terry tries to be a good boyfriend to her, he can't do it. In theory the story would end when Terry ruins his relationship with the seventh and final Dana, also known as Dana Go Bye Bye. Then suddenly Terry notices she's on a plane taxiing down the runway, and he can only chase after her on foot wailing, "Where are you going? Don't leave me! How did you even get on the plane? Your shoes are still in my car!"

We mention this to clarify that the Barbara Gordon character doesn't qualify for dispensational treatment as such. Dana Tan existed as a series of external frames imposed upon Terry's life to illustrate Terry's romantic failures. In contrast Barbara Gordon's destiny flows from her own choices. However, we will name various stages in her life just for clarity's sake, since we'll be looking at their interactions through time.)

The term "eschatology" traditionally has been assumed by the man-on-the-street solely to refer to doomsday (whenever that is), but that's a misunderstanding. It's just as much about the beginning and the middle and the "how do we get there from here" process which happens to have an end. So the stuff happening in the middle of time is just as valid as any Last Day stuff -- because what's in your face right now is the last day of your life so far. (Too many people conclude that if they buy into a plan from the beginning they're guaranteed a free ride to the end. You won't see them helping at the soup kitchen, aiding famine relief, or otherwise "healing the world" because those are "works." Besides, the sooner the world ends, the sooner they can leave. Hence the expression, "so heavenly minded as to be of no earthly good.")

In Bat-mythos eschatology Batwoman offers us a glimpse of Bruce and Barbara in the middle of their lives. And it offers us a certain insight that we really can't find anywhere else. In Bat-mythos eschatology this film trumps the BB series -- not in the sense of overwriting continuity but of illuminating it.

Three key terms she borrowed from eschatology were “preterism,” “futurism,” and “amillenialism,” and she applied them to three ways of reading the telephone scene:

Preterist. This is just a fancy word for "all the big prophecies happened already, except for the Very Last Day which will be without warning."

If you're a "Bat preterist," you believe that Whatever Happened between Bruce and Barbara has already happened and we are witnessing the "death throes" of that relationship. Example :

Looks Bruce is trying to distance himself from Barbara after they ... you know ...

Therefore there's nothing new to anticipate in this storyline until the last day of Batgirl's career, which will hit her like a board. (The "ATOC" reference to a Batgirl suit riddled with bullet holes comes to mind.) There will be tribulations still, such as Return of the Joker, but they aren't "romance-based" tribulations.

Futurist. This means "all the big stuff has yet to arrive." Futurists ride an emotional rollercoaster (sort of like market timers or extreme fanboys) because everything they see on the six o'clock news is a "sign" supporting their position. Then, just when their blood pressure subsides it's time for tomorrow's six o'clock news.

A "Bat futurist" believes that Whatever Happened between Bruce and Barbara has yet to happen. Example :

I like the nod to the future where we witness the budding relationship between Bruce and Barbara.

Therefore we are witnessing the "birth pangs" of the relationship. That's an appropriate metaphor because things will get a lot more painful before the "oh, baby."

That's why my first reaction to the Batwoman film was amillennial. This is just a big word meaning that "timing is less important than what you do with the time given you. Sure, there's an end someday, but what are you going to do now?" The Baked Alaska review is amillennial. That is, character trumps timing. It also allows for parallel storylines (because The Millennium is now, in heaven, whereas troubles continue on earth). Barbara has had feelings and dreams for Batman in the past ; she's having them in the present ; she may have them well into the future. But is it her nature (or her fate) to actually act upon those feelings and dreams? Is it Bruce's nature (or fate) to respond? Would his response be positive, negative, sheltering, abusive -- or absent? What if his answer would be the same yesterday, today and always?

I’m reluctant to say more about these terms, because one thing I learned in that two-year-old discussion was that I could never fully grasp what The Old Maid meant by them. At best, I had the feeling that I was only inadequately understanding a metaphor that The Old Maid herself understood too well to adequately explain. At worst, I felt like the victim in a game of Fizzbin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fizzbin).

In retrospect, I’d say the problem is that these terms are introduced as part of an unnecessary metaphor. Metaphors are useful to get across ideas whose literal and technical expression are too hard to grasp. (The “solar system” model of the atom is a good example of a metaphor that gets across the basic idea, even though it’s not strictly accurate.) In this case, I think the metaphor is probably obscuring more than it is clarifying.

For starters, the terms are borrowed from a field (eschatology) that itself relies a great deal upon Aristotelean theories of drama for its expressions and content. The notions that history has a shape (a beginning, a middle, an end) and a purpose to which it is leading (a final and intended result), and that character is both revealed and shaped through actions, are both also found in classical theories of drama. But why try to analyze a story by taking a detour through eschatology (which subtly modifies the concepts it uses for its own ends) and then applying them metaphorically to a story? Especially when you can just apply the standard analytical tools from dramatic theory directly and without using them as (potentially misleading) metaphors? Clarity is better served by being direct.

Moreover, it was never clear (to me, at any rate) what events the terms were supposed to apply to. At one point, The Old Maid chided me (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1329071&postcount=122) for misusing the terms “preterist” and “futurist”: “I use ‘preterist’ and ‘futurist’ to label the time period when the problem began, not when it ended.” But what is “the problem”? Is it the Barbara/Bruce relationship (remember, the “preterist” position is that “you believe that Whatever Happened between Bruce and Barbara has already happened”) or is it something else? In prophecy, “preterist” and “futurist” must refer to the events foretold in Scripture, and those who use the terms must know which Scriptural descriptions they are either anticipating or looking back on. But there seems no similarly clear statement of what the “Whatever Happened” is that The Old Maid wanted to discuss.

It’s also not clear to me that “amillennial” is a position best understood in contrast to “preterist” or “futurist.” At one point (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1324505&postcount=116) I thought that “amillennial” meant “nothing happened. Again, I was corrected (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=1329071&postcount=122) in a way that left me even more confused:

Amillennial doesn't mean "nothing happened relevant to the topic." It means nothing happened that could be classified as a relationship. Clearly a lot of things are happening in the characters' parallel realities. And as noted earlier, Barbara will always qualify as a "might have been" even if nothing happened.

If “amillennial” takes as its subject only the relationship (and denies that it happened), but “preterism” and “futurism” apply to something larger (a “problem”), then the three terms do not exist at the same level of categorization. Worse, its original definition (“timing is less important than what you do with the time given you”) sound like it isn’t referring to the relationship either. In fact, it sounds less like a theory of what happened between Barbara and Bruce and more like an interpretive attitude: It doesn’t matter what you believe happened between them, or when it happened. What’s important is that you care about them.

When I returned to this topic a few days ago and reread the “Just desserts” thread, I remembered again why I eventually just dropped out: the obscurities and confusions of these terms left me frustrated.

Finally, the use of only three terms to try to interpret the characters and their relationships strikes me as too narrow. Of course, the fewer terms you use in any categorization the fewer possibilities you will have to describe and discuss. But there are many ways of approaching and analyzing these characters, even if we restrict ourselves to the field that interests The Old Maid. The restriction to three terms has the effect of obscuring alternate ways of looking at the characters.

Instead, I prefer to take the character herself and the situation as basic and not bother with special terms. But The Old Maid is clearly correct in noting that Barbara may have had worse problems than just having suffered from an ill-conceived romance that inevitably went south. Barbara Gordon herself is a bit of a problem: in many respects, it’s unclear what she wants from her relationship with Batman or from her career as Batgirl. To fully understand the character and the shape of her life, you have to look at that life as a whole and understand particular events in that life from the perspective of her entire career. At the same time, however, you mustn’t lose sight of the fact that lives are lived at the moment-by-moment. It’s doubtful that anyone understands the shape of his or her life (at least until it’s nearly over, and maybe not even then). To understand a character, you also have to understand her from her own point of view.

We might distinguish these two approaches by saying that one looks at character while the other looks at agency. That is, the former begins with the whole person, who has had a complete career and a set of habits acquired over the course of that career, and judges her and each of her actions according to that character. The latter stresses the individual-as-she-is-in-a-particular-pickle and how she acts within it. The former adopts something of a God’s-eye view: it knows all the facts, from beginning to end. The latter only knows the immediate, and often stresses that the agent herself often doesn’t know all the facts; certainly the agent doesn’t know her own life from beginning to end.

When talking about the characters in a book or movie, people will often slide between one or the other, depending upon what they’re interested in. So, why did Bruce Wayne take that famous boyhood oath to wage a war on crime? You can talk about the fact that he was always latently Batman, or you can say that he had just seen his parents murdered and had just walked out of The Mark of Zorro, so he had vigilantism on the brain. Usually, this kind of slipping-and-sliding causes no problems. But you have to be careful not to confuse them when you’re doing deep and subtle character analysis.

I sense just such a confusion when I see The Old Maid not being able to say whether she’s interested in “the relationship” or in Barbara Gordon’s “problem.” That’s because one of these is better tackled in terms of agency, while the other is better approached through character.

At my website (http://anbat.toonzone.net), for instance, I have looked (http://anbat.toonzone.net/btas/br.html) at Barbara in terms of character:

Begin at the end. That means “A Touch of Curare,” which has Barbara Gordon, in the twilight of her career, reflecting on where she's been and how she got there. The full story of why a costumed vigilante became commissioner of police is not revealed (though perhaps it was genetically foreordained), but it is not hard to discern a contributing factor. She and the Bat-boss, for awhile, mixed business with pleasure, though it is never put quite so crudely. And that, let us declare at the very top, was a mistake.
[The dream sequence that opens “Batgirl Returns”] suggests that the Batman-Batgirl romance did not blossom because two damaged people discovered each other. One of them had ambitions.
In the world of Batman, it is safe to say, everyone is screwed up. But they are not equally screwed up or screwed up in the same way. Barbara, in fact, seems quite normal: a wholesome redhead with clear skin, a loving father, and enviable prospects. Only one oddity stands out: She has a taste for danger.
In “Shadow of the Bat” she donned the Batgirl suit for a limited and specific purpose: to clear her father of a crime. But in this dream sequence, she betrays a lust for both the Batman and the Bat-life. Well, who hasn't got the itch for one or the other, occasionally? But Barbara's in a position to act on it.
This is how folly and tragedy enter her life.

That is, I took the Barbara/Bruce relationship as an element in her overall life, and whose nature and importance has to be seen in the context of the character she displayed and acquired. She began her crime-fighting career unfulfilled (she wanted a career, and maybe she wanted Batman), and she ended it unfulfilled (she is being shown up by a new Batman, and she parted bitterly with Batman). The relationship looks like the hinge of that evolution.

The “problem,” if that’s what The Old Maid is interested in, is probably larger than “the relationship”; in fact, jellyfish-like, “the problem” is probably a whole host of smaller problems interacting complexly with each other, and only looks like a unified “problem” if you make it as big as Barbara Gordon’s whole life. If you want to solve a problem that smaller than “Barbara Gordon,” you’re going to have to be narrower and more precise about what you’re talking about. And the more narrowly and precisely you focus, the more you should adopt an agent-centered analysis. This is why “the problem” has to be precisely defined—or, if you’re interested in different “problems,” you have to be clear about which ones you’re interested in and when you’re discussing them.

Because there are so many different ways of slicing the “problem” that afflicts Barbara and Bruce, I don’t find it profitable to try coming up with labels. In this circumstance, labeling possible positions is more limiting than I think is a good idea. It puts a straight-jacket on discussion.

* * * * *

But there is one place where some labeling is necessary.

In the time since The Old Maid made the original thread, there’s been another complication: the producers have gone on record about the relationship. From the featurette “Gotham’s New Knight” (BTAS Vol. 3):

Timm: I thought it’d be much more interesting if Batgirl had a crush on Batman

Dini: We even suggested that they had a relationship, you know, and said as much in the later episodes and in Batman Beyond.

Timm: And of course the fans were all going “Oh, that’s just so wrong,” and it’s like, well, that’s why we did it. ‘Cause it’s more interesting. You know, it’s like, it is wrong, and it’s meant to be wrong.

Before this featurette appeared, fans who thought that there was no relationship between the two characters had a relatively easy time constructing arguments to show that Barbara had (at most) an unrequited crush on the Bat-boss. They also had a relatively easy time (if that was their wont) characterizing such a relationship as all to the good. It’s now harder to do either without retreating into more abstruse areas of interpretive theory.

The default position in a philosophy of literature (and one that is implicitly adopted by most people) is to take an author-centric view of interpretation: the meaning and nature of what happens in a work of fiction must comport with the author(s) own stated views. Thus, if Bruce Timm says that there was a relationship, and that it was a “wrong” kind of thing, then that’s what is.

Not all theorists are convinced; they point out that where authors are dead or silent (or both; think of Shakespeare) then criticism has no choice but to adopt a stance of textual autonomy: all meaning is to be found in the work itself. Because this theory presumably works with regard to Hamlet, there seems little reason to assume it doesn’t work with regard to Mystery of the Batwoman. If textual meaning is always internal to the work itself, then whatever the authors have to say may be of academic interest, but it is ultimately irrelevant.

These are not the only two interpretive methodologies on the market; nor are they the most convincing. Better theories often try to blend them in various ingenious ways. Nonetheless, as of September 2006, anyone who writes on the Barbara Gordon controversies must take some sort of stance on the question, even if they go no further than assenting or dissenting to the claim “The statements of the producers show that Barbara and Bruce had a relationship, and it was (in some sense of the word) ‘wrong.’”

Maxie Zeus

09-23-2006, 06:18 PM

If we discard The Old Maid’s terminology, how can we classify or make judgments about Barbara Gordon’s life choices, and how are we to interpret key scenes from her life (as they were presented in the animated series)? I don’t think we need to depart so much from The Old Maid’s method, which was to pose pointed questions and then voice intuitions and make judgments. In fact, one reason for getting rid of that terminology is to clear the way to accent that kind of method. In the next part of this thread, I’ll revive (with many more questions, however) The Old Maid’s “quiz.”

First, though, let’s put some key scenes on the record, and make a few comments about why those scenes are important and how they should be used to support our interpretations.

A person’s life is composed of choices. A person’s choices, in turn, are a function of the circumstances that present themselves as requiring decisions, and of the habits and preferences that person has. To take a simple example: When I go to Baskin-Robbins, I must choose a flavor of ice cream. The flavor I choose depends both upon what flavors they have on hand, and on which flavors I prefer. The choices then issue in consequences that open or foreclose possible further opportunities for making choices, and their “success” or “failure” has a further effect of altering or reinforcing my habits. In short, choices over time form character and also alter the circumstances under which we exercise (or have the opportunity to exercise) our character.

Early in the series, when she is young, Barbara Gordon has many choices before her, and she is relatively unformed in her character. By the end of the series, when she is old, those choices have been made and her character has largely formed. When looking at her early decisions, then, it is wiser to concentrate on the choices themselves and wisdom of her decisions as they are apparent to her at the time she is making them. It’s unfair to insist that she should “know” that a certain choice will, fifty years later, have bad consequences, unless those consequences are obvious at the time she would be making her decisions. When looking at her later life, however, it is possible to look to earlier decisions and trace how they led to her later circumstances and character. In other words, when looking at her early life it is better to concentrate on her as an agent, and to look at her as a character late in her life.

I start by assuming that there are six key episodes in her life that deserve to be considered.

1. ”Heart of Steel”: This was Barbara Gordon’s first appearance, and the first clue we got that she was a smart and tough little cookie who could, conceivably, be a member of the Bat family. It also shows her strong attachment to her father.

2. ”Shadow of the Bat”: This was Barbara’s first appearance as Batgirl and her first encounter with Batman and Robin. But again, she acted because her father was in danger.

3. ”Batgirl Returns”: This was the first adventure (presumably) in which she acted as Batgirl without her father being in any kind of danger. It also showed that she had romantic fantasies about Batman himself.

4. ”Old Wounds”: This episode showed her relationship with Dick Grayson coming under serious stress; it also brought her into the Bat family.

5. Mystery of the Batwoman: This contains the only scene in the series that seems directly related to her infamous “relationship” with Batman.

6. ”A Touch of Curare”: No choices are made in this story, but it is Barbara’s on-the-record reminiscence of her “relationship” with Batman.

There’s no specific scene in “Heart of Steel” or “Shadow of the Bat” that deserves close scrutiny. But so that other scenes are available for review in this thread, here are some transcripts of some key moments. But it’s also a good idea to take a look at the scenes themselves for possible details and nuances in the acting or staging.

”Batgirl Returns”: The Dream
[Extensive fight between Batman and the Joker, Two-Face, and Penguin.]

Batgirl (OS): Back off, creeps!

[Pan to reveal Batgirl in heroic pose. She swings into action and dispatches the baddies one by one.]

Batman: Batgirl!

Batgirl: Are you alright?

Batman: Yes. [He takes her by the shoulders.] Thanks to you.

[They gaze deeply into each other eyes as the music swells romantically. Batgirl closes her eyes and leans upward to kiss him. He leans in closer.]

Batman (Robin’s voice): Barbara! Hey, Babs!

”Old Wounds”: At Wayne Manor
[Bruce Wayne stand gazing out a window as Barbara talks.]

Barbara: He was so upset he couldn’t even talk about it. It wasn’t the first time I’ve seen him like that. What is it between you two? What’s going on?

[Wayne turns as she approaches and looks intently at her.]

Wayne: You really care for him, don’t you?

[Barbara nods. Wayne turns and walks toward the opposite wall. He pauses, then turns and gestures.]

Wayne: Follow me.

[He leads her down into the Batcave.]

Barbara (looking around): Oh my God!

[Alfred enters.]

Alfred: Master Bruce, I—

[He stops short when he sees Barbara.]

Alfred: Miss Gordon, I see you’ve discovered our … little secret. Yes, I admit it. I am Batman.

[Barbara smiles awkwardly.]

Wayne: It’s alright, Alfred.

Alfred: Very good sir. [He exits.]

Barbara: Why would you trust me with this?

Wayne: For Dick’s sake. Besides, I’m not the only one with a secret, am I … Batgirl?

[Barbara starts.]

Barbara: How did you—?

Wayne: I make it my business to know.

[Interruption as the Joker comes on TV. Alfred and Wayne watch. The conversation ends with Alfred saying that Dick doesn’t answer his call. Wayne issues orders.]

Wayne: I’m going to need back up.

[Barbara enters.]

Barbara: You’ve already got it.

”Old Wounds”: After the fight
Robin: “Batgirl”! I still can’t believe it. How could you keep something like this from me?

Batgirl: You weren’t exactly honest with me either.

Robin (pointing at Batman): But you told him!

Batgirl: He knew.

[Robin starts, then frowns.]

Batman: It wasn’t my place to tell you.

Robin: But it was your place to put her in danger!

Batgirl: It wasn’t like that! I volunteered!

Robin: You think you did. You don’t know him like I do. He manipulates, pulls strings. Anything to get what he wants.

[Batgirl frowns, looks down, and wilts.]

[b]Mystery of the Batwoman: The telephone scene]
Alfred drives the limo. Bruce and Tim sit in the back seat, with Bruce closer to the camera. Bruce's cellphone rings. He answers.

Bruce : "Bruce Wayne here."

Barbara : "Bruce! It's Barbara."

Bruce (friendly/casual) : "Hey Barb."

Tim (teasing/singsong) : "She misses you!" (holds his comic book over his face)

Bruce : "How's college?"

Scene shifts to Barbara's dorm room.

Barbara (stretched out on her dorm bed) : "Not bad. Though the night life here can't compare with (jaunty, enthusiastic) kicking butt as Batgirl!

She rolls over on the bed onto her stomach, feet kicked back and crosses her ankles ; begins twirling a lock of hair in her fingers.

Barbara : "But spring break'll be here soon and I'll be back in Gotham for (singsong) Two Whole Weeks. (purrs) Won't that be nice?"

Scene now alternates between the sets with each change of speaker. Bruce pauses, then :

Bruce (stone-faced, speaks neutrally) : "Yes. We'll all be happy to see you."

Tim (frowning) : "Don't drag me into this."

Barbara rolls off the bed, stands and wanders out to the balcony, her back to the audience.

Barbara : "Anyway, that's not the reason I called. I just saw the news --

She leans on the balcony railing, a breeze ruffling her hair ; orchestra begins an "awkward moment" clarinet solo.

Barbara : "-- and was wondering if you'd gotten a new partner, someone a little (petulant/disapproving) older?!"

Bruce (firmly) : "I have no idea who she is."

Barbara (you-better-believe-it-buster tone) : "Cause if you had, I'd be really upset.

She turns in profile to show an almost wistful expression ; looks at the ground, lowers her face to the phone

Barbara : "C-cause I thought you and I were ... (softly) you know ..."

Bruce deliberately picks up a newspaper and rustles it near the phone

Bruce : (uncomfortable expression on his face) "Uh ... Barb ... we're ... going through the East Tunnel now ... 'fraid .. signal's breaking up. Talk later."

Bruce turns off the cellphone ; his expression changes instantly. On her dorm balcony, Barbara hears him hang up, frowns at her cordless as if the phone has done something wrong. "Awkward moment" musical motif repeats louder.

In the limo Tim gives Bruce a conspiratorial grin and Alfred continues driving serenely. The "awkward moment" music is already darkening to the "don't trust her ; be careful" of the upcoming Rocky scene. By doing so it ties Batgirl to Batwoman, magnifying the impact of Bruce's last line in this scene which is doing the same thing.

Tim (attaboy) : "Squeaked through again, didn'cha?"

Alfred (attaboy) : "I never fail to marvel at your narrow escapes, sir."

Bruce (in a tone simultaneously professional and dismissive) : "One female Bat at a time."

Because it will be important later, here is the conversation as it would have been overheard by Tim and Alfred:

Alfred drives the limo. Bruce and Tim sit in the back seat, with Bruce closer to the camera. Bruce's cellphone rings. He answers.

Bruce : "Bruce Wayne here."

[Short pause]

Bruce (friendly/casual) : "Hey Barb."

Tim (teasing/singsong) : "She misses you!" (holds his comic book over his face)

Bruce : "How's college?"

[Longer pause]

Bruce (stone-faced, speaks neutrally) : "Yes. We'll all be happy to see you."

Tim (frowning) : "Don't drag me into this."

[Pause]

Bruce (firmly) : "I have no idea who she is."

[Pause]

Bruce deliberately picks up a newspaper and rustles it near the phone

Bruce : (uncomfortable expression on his face) "Uh ... Barb ... we're ... going through the East Tunnel now ... 'fraid .. signal's breaking up. Talk later."

”A Touch of Curare”: In the Batcave
Commissioner Gordon (hand on Batgirl costume): I see you sewed up the bullet holes.

Terry: You’re Batgirl! (To Bruce Wayne) She’s Batgirl!

Commissioner Gordon: Was Batgirl. That brand of costumed justice went out with the tommy gun, kid. I appreciate what you did tonight, but I want you to stay out of police business. [Turning to Bruce.] Of course, maybe I’m talking to the wrong guy. Hard to believe you’re remaking your image at this late date.

Bruce Wayne: I never forced him.

Terry: It’s what I wanted.

Commissioner Gordon (with a smile and piercing glance): That’s what we all thought. At the beginning.

”A Touch of Curare”: On the street and in the café.

[Terry walks down the street. Barbara Gordon steps out the shadows and advances angrily. Terry backs up as she continues advancing.]

Terry: Wasn’t me who set of the alarm. I did the best I could.

Commissioner Gordon: This is the last warning you get. If I see so much as a pointy-eared shadow anywhere near police business, I’ll drag you and Bruce to jail. You got me?

[Terry nods unhappily. She stalks away.]

Terry: Why do you hate him so much.

[Gordon stops cold. She looks back over her shoulder.]

Commissioner Gordon: Ancient history, McGinnis.

Terry: History’s my favorite subject.

[Gordon regards him, then turns and smiles. Dissolve to coffee shop. Terry has a doughnut. Gordon has coffee.]

Terry: So, you and Dick Grayson, like, dated?

Commissioner Gordon: In college. Puppy love. Later on we just never talked about it.

Terry: People should communicate more.

Commissioner Gordon: Dick finally got fed up living in Batman’s shadow. [She strokes the edge of the coffee cup.] He decided to leave. He was hurt when I chose to stay behind, with Bruce.

Terry: As his partner.

[Gordon raises an eyebrow, smiles, and looks away.]

Terry: His girlfriend?

[Gordon sips her coffee, and smiles.]

Terry: Whoa.

Commissioner Gordon: On the street, it was like ballet. We were the perfect duo. But for Bruce—Batman—there was nothing but the street. Eventually, that gets old. Time comes when you gotta hang up the cape. But Bruce wouldn’t. Or couldn’t. So I left. And never looked back.

[Gordon slips a card into a payment pad, which reads “PAID.” Then she rises and takes up her purse.]

Commissioner Gordon: No, I don’t hate him. I hate what he’s become. Such a great man. So alone. (As she exits) Coffee’s on me, kid.

Maxie Zeus

09-23-2006, 06:21 PM

QUIZ TIME!

Many of the questions that follow are taken or adapted from questions originally posed by The Old Maid. The others are new. To fully understand the purpose of this quiz, you should review the posts above.

Note also that many of the questions call for answers so deeply speculative that they probably cannot be given a well-supported answer. They are asked not because the answers you give will be important, but to stimulate further reflection about the meaning of the Barbara-Bruce relationship and what it would mean to other people.

The first question addresses the matter of authorial intent and is posed merely to get the issue of interpretive methodology into the open so it does not cause misunderstandings in any discussion that follows.

1. Please endorse at least one of the following statements. If none of them reflect your beliefs, state your preferred option.
a. I accept the producers’ word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship and their characterization of it as “wrong.” This is the final word on the issue, and further discussion of this topic is pointless.
b. I accept the producers’ word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship and their characterization of it as “wrong.” I further accept that all the evidence in the series supports their characterization of what happened.
c. I accept the producers’ word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship and their characterization of it as “wrong.” However, I believe that the actual evidence of the series, if taken separately from the producers’ statements, does not support their assertion. If they had never addressed the issue, the evidence from the series would support different conclusions; and if the producers ever change their minds and choose to return to the series and this issue, there is enough slack in what we have seen to support such a change without contradicting events and conversations that have already been made in the series.
d. I believe that the producers’ assertions about Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne are irrelevant to deciding what actually happened. However, I believe that the actual evidence of the series supports their characterization of what happened.
e. I believe that the producers’ assertions about Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne are irrelevant to deciding what actually happened. Moreover, I believe that the actual evidence of the series does not support their characterization of what happened.

The next section (taken almost verbatim from The Old Maid’s original quiz) are about the other people in Barbara Gordon’s life and her relation to them. They are meant to suggest possible issues or complications to consider when thinking about later questions.

2. What exactly is Dick to Bruce? And don't say "his ward," because that's a legal term. In emotional bonds, what are they? What, if any, are Bruce/Batman's obligations to Dick?

3. If you see Bruce and Dick as parent-and-child, would you be okay with Barb's behavior if she had been a man who dated daughter then mother? If you see Bruce and Dick as brothers, would you be okay with it if Barb was a man who dated a younger sister then her older sister?

4. If Dick Grayson had never existed, would it change your opinion of the proposed Bruce/Barbara affair?

5. Do you think the animated James Gordon knows Batman's identity? Do you believe this knowledge (or lack of knowledge) was a factor in Jim's demonstrated preference for Dick Grayson as his daughter's suitor?

6. What exactly is James Gordon to the Batman? What, if any, obligations does Batman have to him?

7. Although Barbara obviously misread her father's feelings and beliefs in TNBA's "Over The Edge," she's correct that her choices could cost him his career. What, if any, are her obligations to him?

8. What is Alfred’s relation to Bruce Wayne/Batman? To Dick Grayson? To Barbara Gordon?

The next section concentrates on Barbara Gordon’s overall career.

9. Do you believe that Barbara Gordon’s life, as it plays out through Batman Beyond, is the best life that she could reasonably hope for?

If your answer to Question 9 was “No,” answer to the following two-part question:

10(a). Please choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion would be an aspect of her optimal life. Note that several combinations of answers are possible. Consider the possible combinations carefully.
a. In old age, Barbara Gordon is still actively working alongside Bruce Wayne (but not as police commissioner) and helps him train Terry McGinnis.
b. In old age, Barbara Gordon is police commissioner but is friendly with Bruce Wayne and helps him train Terry McGinnis.
c. In old age, Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne are romantically involved with each other.
d. In old age, Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson are romantically involved with each other.
e. In old age, neither Barbara Gordon nor Bruce Wayne are involved in “caped crusading.”
f. In old age, Barbara Gordon is either retired from all work, or has a career completely outside of law enforcement.
g. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were once romantically linked, but it ended.
h. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were never romantically linked.
i. Bruce Wayne gave up caped crusading soon after he and Barbara became romantically linked.
j. Barbara Gordon had a considerable run as Batgirl but never became one of Batman’s teammates.
k. Barbara Gordon gave up being Batgirl early on.
l. Barbara Gordon never became Batgirl.
m. Other (please describe).

10(b). Do you believe that Barbara Gordon, looking back on her life, would regard your choice for her life as the optimal one, or do you think she would fail to recognize that the life you chose for her would be the best one she could have had? Explain.

11. Do you believe that the elderly Barbara Gordon regards her life as the best one she could have led?

12. If your answer to Question 11 was “No” and your answer to Question 10(b) was “She would not choose the life I think optimal for her,” choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion Barbara Gordon would have preferred to see come to pass.
a. Barbara Gordon never gave up caped crusading.
b. Barbara Gordon never became police commissioner.
c. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were never romantically linked.
d. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were once romantically linked.
e. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne continue to be romantically linked.
f. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne continue to be romantically linked, but he gave up caped crusading soon after they got together.
g. Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson only broke up later in life.
h. Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson never broke up.
i. Barbara Gordon remained as Batgirl, but never became one of Batman’s teammates.
j. Barbara Gordon gave up being Batgirl early on.
k. Barbara Gordon never became Batgirl.
l. Other (please describe).

The next section directly addresses the issue of whether Barbara and Bruce ever had a romantic entanglement with each other.

Characterize your responses to the following statements. You may explain your answers if you wish.

13. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman before she first donned the Batgirl costume (pre-“Shadow of the Bat”)
a. Strongly agree.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

14. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she donned the Batgirl costume but before she joined the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

15. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she joined the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

16. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she left the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

17. Barbara Gordon continues to harbor romantic feelings for Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond.
a. Strongly agree.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

18. Barbara Gordon never harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
a. Strongly agree.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

19. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after Dick quit the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

20. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after he returned as Nightwing.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

21. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson at one time, but they eventually evaporated.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

22. Barbara Gordon never lost her strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

23. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne simultaneously.
b. Agree
c. Disagree.
d. Strongly disagree.
e. No opinion.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

24. Do you believe it is possible for two people to be in “puppy love” even when they are old enough to form mature relationships? Explain.

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were ever romantically linked, answer the following multi-part question.

25(a). Relationships that fail to become permanent can be characterized as having an inauguration point, a period of intensification, a peak, a downslope, and a termination. Where in the following timeline would you place (i) the inauguration point, (ii) the peak, and (iii) the termination point of the Barbara/Bruce relationship?
a. Between “Old Wounds” and “Chemistry.”
b. Between “Chemistry” and Mystery of the Batwoman.
c. Between Mystery of the Batwoman and Return of the Joker.
d. Between Return of the Joker and Batman Beyond.

25(b). Do you believe that Tim Drake and Alfred ever knew that Barbara and Bruce were romantically linked?

25(c). If you believe that the relationship had yet to begin at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; of Tim’s reaction; of Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

25(d). If you believe that the relationship had begun but had not yet peaked at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

25(e). If you believe that the relationship had already peaked at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman but not yet ended, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

25(f). If you believe that the relationship had already ended at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

25(g). Who do you think ended the relationship? Do you think it was a mutual decision?

25(h). If the decision to end the relationship was mutual or was forced by Bruce, how do you interpret Commissioner Gordon’s claim that she ended it?

25(i). Do you believe Dick Grayson ever found out about the relationship between Barbara and Bruce? If so, do you think it was before, during, or after it occurred? How do you think that knowledge (if he had it) affected his relationship with Barbara and Bruce? Do you think the two of them cared what he thought?

25(j). Do you think the relationship between Bruce and Barbara was known to Jim Gordon?

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were never romantically linked, answer the following three-part question.

26(a). What do you think Barbara was trying to allude to when she called Bruce in Mystery of the Batwoman? What do you think Alfred and Tim thought the subject of the conversation was?

26(b). Why do you think Commissioner Gordon let Terry McGinnis infer that she was ever Bruce’s “girlfriend”?

26(c). If you believe that, at best, Barbara had strong and unrequited feelings for Bruce, do you think he ever knew? How do you suspect he reacted if he knew? [Silly question, because every quiz needs one: Do you think he shot her, and that’s where the “bullet holes” in the Batgirl suit came from?]

27. Do you think that Bruce Wayne, psychologically, has a strong “seducer” streak in his personality? Do you think such an aspect of his personality could have played a part in whatever happened between him and Barbara?

Extra Credit: Compose a short biographical note about Barbara Gordon that uses your answers above to sketch the course of her life as Batgirl and beyond, paying close attention to the nature and circumstances of her relationship with Bruce Wayne and its effect on her life.

Alex Weitzman

09-23-2006, 09:31 PM

I love these threads.

I was the first to knock off the quiz last time, and now I'll get right to it this time. Of course, since the time of the original thread, I have expressed myself much more thoroughly on one of Barbara's key episodes. (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/sections/fanworks/edits/weitzman/01.php) Out of sheer inevitability, then, I'm going to have to cannabalize some of my comments from that editorial and from my previous quiz answers (as long as I still agree with them and their wording).

1. Please endorse at least one of the following statements. If none of them reflect your beliefs, state your preferred option.

It'll have to be A: I accept the producers’ word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship and their characterization of it as “wrong.” This is the final word on the issue, and further discussion of this topic is pointless.

I admit that I have a pretty ironclad bias towards authorial control. I love the idea of art being subjective and malleable in both interpretation and comprehension, and I have in various instances gone out of my own way to claim things of various artistic endeavors that others may find to be wholly out of left field. But I still recognize these interpretations as personal and little more, and thusly I put the focus on my ability to explain and promote my views. Recognizing a particular interpretation of art as personal is not inherently devaluing it; it simply considers that the interpretation is not absolutely universal nor absolutely factual. Art is communication, and while the massive span of the audience can lend itself to widespread variation in how the communicated work is taken, the work still retains one individual authorial intention (presuming that the artists are all on the same page) and thusly the authorial intention is the only perception of the work that can be considered even remotely universal. It's the one thing being said; what gets heard is up to you, but don't deny what's being said.

A small example: over at Rotten Tomatoes, a poster was lambasting the original Back to the Future for being archconservative dogma due to, amongst several other reasons, utilizing the idyllic-seeming 1950s to sell conservative views of America. (The poster also felt it necessary to claim any opponent of his view as being conservative themselves. As a lover of BTTF and a raging liberal, I found this line of debate wildly ill-thought.) However, Bob Gale, co-writer and producer of the trilogy, has stated on the BTTF boxset that the use of the 50s was for two reasons: 1. sheer mathematics - the parents each being 30 when Marty was born and 47 when he is 17, he must go back 30 years from '85 to '55 to see his parents at the exact same age; 2. the 50s being the real birth of teenage culture. Confronted with this, the poster in question could only respond that he did not believe Bob Gale. In essence, to deny the authorial explanation is to say that the artists are liars. As well as bringing any worthy debate to a screeching halt, comments like that simply strike me as incredibly rude and self-serving.

Therefore, if the artists say it is, it is. That doesn't mean we can't interpret and read into it our own ways. It just means we can't say to the artists, "No, THIS is what you meant! Admit it!"

2. What exactly is Dick to Bruce? And don't say "his ward," because that's a legal term. In emotional bonds, what are they? What, if any, are Bruce/Batman's obligations to Dick?

From The Old Maid's thread:

"Obligations? Oooh, toughie. I believe that he is obligated to Dick as a father, a mentor, and in regards to Barbara, a regretful reason for Dick's loss of happiness. Bruce clearly did not want to come between Barbara and Dick in Old Wounds. He made choices in that episode in hopes of possibly rectifying the problems, but he ended up making it worse. The five years that created Nightwing allowed Bruce to burn off the scab of that mistake and let his relationship with his former Robin be as cold as Dick wanted it to be. In some ways, that was also penance; he gave Dick the freedom to reject him if so desired. But Barbara poses a new breach upon Bruce's regret, a breach frought with additional dangers. His actions in MOTB don't surprise me at all."

3. If you see Bruce and Dick as parent-and-child, would you be okay with Barb's behavior if she had been a man who dated daughter then mother? If you see Bruce and Dick as brothers, would you be okay with it if Barb was a man who dated a younger sister then her older sister?

Same thread:

"The latter is more acceptable, to be blunt, but both represent significant lacks of tact on the part of the Barb character of the hypothetical, to say the least. Family is a sacred thing, and if such problems occur between family members, the mistakes of the second members who date the 'outsider', as it were, would be significant but less of a betrayal. The responsibility between such family members is tempered by the love that exists between them - and the hypothetical must consider that such love does exist between Bruce and Dick. It is the fault of the outsider who keeps looking for more love from the same family unit, constantly flaunting the bad blood in front of the previous lover."

Looking over this answer again, I somewhat disagree with my own comment that the second family members' actions would be "less of a betrayal". Family is tempered by both love and coincidence; nobody asks to be of the same blood. Therefore, due to the circumstancial love that is created in a family unit, it also bears the greatest potential for betrayal and hate. It's that whole thin-line-between-yada-yada thing. But I still come to the same judgmental conclusion, which is that the outsider in this scenario is most at fault. You can no more remove someone from your family than you can choose them to be in it. The outsider's the one who doesn't need to still be in anybody's lives.

4. If Dick Grayson had never existed, would it change your opinion of the proposed Bruce/Barbara affair?

"Age, Jim Gordon, the situation of Batman.........yeah, it's still a bad idea."

Blunt answer from before, but it's still my thinking. Dick was a major reason for them not to be involved, maybe the most major reason, but presuming that we can remove Dick from the equation and nothing would be different in the characters, then Barbara and Bruce were still never right for each other. The age thing can be seen as a minor thing by some, but it still packs a wallop for others in terms of relationship appropriateness. Combine age with Gordon: Gordon sees Batman as a contemporary, which would make messing around with his daughter a big betrayal between them. Even at just the Bruce Wayne level (removing Batman), the age thing makes it weird and Jim would be wondering why his daughter's going after this older rich man. And then there's Batman on his own accord; as TOM has shrewdly pointed out, he's married to the job already, and isn't looking to be adulterous.

5. Do you think the animated James Gordon knows Batman's identity? Do you believe this knowledge (or lack of knowledge) was a factor in Jim's demonstrated preference for Dick Grayson as his daughter's suitor?

Too big to quote from the old thread, but yes, he at least knows by Over the Edge. "All of you." I suspect he figured it out by the time Babs started hanging out more at Wayne Manor and Batgirl suddenly started hanging out with Batman more. This happened right after Dick broke off his relationship to Barbara, so his preference for Dick seems to be motivated by other things than knowing they fight crime together.

6. What exactly is James Gordon to the Batman? What, if any, obligations does Batman have to him?

"Wayne owes Gordon the obligation of respect as both a man and a lawman, the obligation as a friend, and the obligation as a soulmate. Truly, they are soulmates, more than possibly any other two characters in the Bat universe. Gordon probably would join Wayne if he had the motivating tragedy to do so and the physicality to keep up; another reason, perhaps, that he ends up approving of Barb's secret life in Over the Edge. Because of this, it is no wonder that Bruce finds Barbara's advances difficult to swallow."

Addition to my old answer: Jim Gordon, to the Batman, is also a fellow father. Bruce/Batman is Dick/Robin's father, and Jim is Barbara/Batgirl's father. They were the happy in-laws-to-be when the kids were still together. All the more reason Bruce getting involved with Barbara afterwards reeked of incorrectness.

7. Although Barbara obviously misread her father's feelings and beliefs in TNBA's "Over The Edge," she's correct that her choices could cost him his career. What, if any, are her obligations to him?

"In a perfect world, she should be a dutiful and loving daughter. But I hesitate to define such obligations, because the obligations between a parent and a child are tricky and transient things. No two families are alike on this issue. Her mistakes, though, have reasons enough to not exist without figuring in their cost to James Gordon to have to determine those anyway."

8. What is Alfred’s relation to Bruce Wayne/Batman? To Dick Grayson? To Barbara Gordon?

There's a new one.

To Bruce, Alfred is as close to a father as he has. Hell, not just "father", but "parent". Alfred fulfills traditional duties prescribed to both paternal and maternal units. (One more reason Leslie Thompkins didn't need to be around.) He maintained Bruce's health and insisted on him keeping his well-being, but he also guided him on moral avenues of wrong and right and set what ground rules he could. With Dick, I think Bruce took all the fatherly duties, leaving Alfred to essentially be Mom for Dick. "Eat your veggies, sweetie. Daddy's staying late at the office and might not be home for dinner." To Babs, he is neither parent in her life, so I think Alfred is merely a friend, and perhaps a wiseman in the ancient terms (not that she made use of him in this way that often, but she would probably go to him for such sage advice).

9. Do you believe that Barbara Gordon’s life, as it plays out through Batman Beyond, is the best life that she could reasonably hope for?

No.

If your answer to Question 9 was “No,” answer to the following two-part question:

10(a). Please choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion would be an aspect of her optimal life.

My opinion? Okay, this is all just my personal take.

This would be my combination:

b. In old age, Barbara Gordon is police commissioner but is friendly with Bruce Wayne and helps him train Terry McGinnis.
d. In old age, Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson are romantically involved with each other.
h. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were never romantically linked.

It was a stupid move, Babs. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Batman ain't interested, Bruce ain't interested, and you played on his hormones to the breaking point. Worse, you had a perfectly excellent boyfriend in Dick that was fully equipped to give you anything you wanted out of life. You two were right for each other, but your actions proved that true love is only as good as its participants treat it.

Okay, I've said my peace. :)

10(b). Do you believe that Barbara Gordon, looking back on her life, would regard your choice for her life as the optimal one, or do you think she would fail to recognize that the life you chose for her would be the best one she could have had? Explain.

Hmm.

If we're presuming that Barbara Gordon stuck by the choices I gave above as if she made them herself and felt they were the best possible choices at the time she made them, then she'd be thrilled with her life.

If Barbara still harbored feelings for Bruce/Batman but decided to go with my choices anyway, there might be some regret there. But she'd let it slide, because Old Dick would probably be great with her. I think Dick, had his relationship with Barbara stayed solid and complete throughout his life, would still have had his few issues with Bruce but would have turned out a much happier person overall and would have solved those issues with far less drama. (Old Wounds presents a Dick that was hurt because of Bruce but was driven away because of Barbara.) I think the Dick of my fantasy scenario would've been a lot like Sam, Barbara's Beyond husband. They'd be great together, and they'd have the added bonus of having been together and happy throughout much more of their life and without all the histrionic rot that happened when they split up. If anything, Barbara would be describing her once-feelings for Bruce as "puppy love" to Terry.

11. Do you believe that the elderly Barbara Gordon regards her life as the best one she could have led?

No.

12. If your answer to Question 11 was “No” and your answer to Question 10(b) was “She would not choose the life I think optimal for her,” choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion Barbara Gordon would have preferred to see come to pass.

Simple, really:

f. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne continue to be romantically linked, but he gave up caped crusading soon after they got together.

He can't be with his wife Crimefighting if he's going to marry his mistress Batgirl. Barbara loves Sam, no doubt, but I suspect her bitterness with Bruce is indication of a still-angry scorned woman. She likes her current Beyond life, but it's no fantasy and she doesn't treat it like one. She'd rather Bruce had seen the light, so to speak.

13. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman before she first donned the Batgirl costume (pre-“Shadow of the Bat”)

f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

We see some interaction with Barbara and Batman pre-SOTB, but in both cases she has something more on her mind. She trusts Batman, and seeks him out for assistance, but this could just be carried-over trust from her father. It would be hard to point to any one moment in I Am The Night or Heart of Steel and say, "Look! She does/doesn't love him!"

14. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she donned the Batgirl costume but before she joined the Bat family.

a. Strongly agree.

I think Batgirl Returns is fairly clear on this one. Daydreamy stuff, sure, but still significantly there; and unlike other girls that might desire Batsy, she has hung out with him before and knows how to contact him if she wants to.

15. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she joined the Bat family.

a. Strongly agree.

Part of me would just like to say, "b. Agree." Most of the TNBA episodes feature Barbara just getting down to the business of crimefighting. Still, the hints are there. They're at their strongest in Torch Song, interestingly enough, where she sees Bruce being dragged by an anonymous younger date to Cassady's concert and then later purrs to him, "Sometimes it pays to get the cheap seats." Combine little hints like that with the fact that she still did like him before, and I am required to admit that the crush would still have to be there as strongly as ever.

16. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she left the Bat family.

f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

Well, of course, we didn't see this part. She might have had a kneejerk reaction of loathing against Bruce and all he stands for, although a clever onlooker would point out the thin line again and note that her hatred is all the more evidence of her romantic feelings. I think she probably did, either in play as love or hate-due-to-scorn, but without the evidence, I can't say for sure.

17. Barbara Gordon continues to harbor romantic feelings for Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond.

c. Disagree.

I put this as "disagree" instead of "strongly disagree". That's because, by her own admittance, she only hates what Bruce has become. She harbors feelings for the former version of Bruce, the past, and feels sorry for him for not choosing what she sees as the "right" choice (i.e., sticking with her).

18. Barbara Gordon never harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.

d. Strongly disagree.

No, I think she was in love with him. A later question will allow me to explain this more, but I totally think she was in love with Dick. She had every intention of following it through to bigger and better things...until a door got opened.

19. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after Dick quit the Bat family.

f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

I really don't know. She really stopped talking about Dick once he was gone, and we don't see much time in TNBA when Dick was definitely not back yet.

20. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after he returned as Nightwing.

c. Disagree.

The wistful glances in You Scratch My Back seem to insist she's got some regrets for letting him go. I don't think Dick's transformation into Nightwing shattered her feelings for him entirely. I think they just went away as she pursued the choice she was making. Which leads me to...

21. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson at one time, but they eventually evaporated.

a. Strongly agree.

"Puppy love."

22. Barbara Gordon never lost her strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.

d. Strongly disagree.

See previous answer.

23. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne simultaneously.

b. Agree.

It is easy, methinks, to be in love with somebody in reality and somebody in fantasy at the same time. It's not rational, but they're two separate planes of existence and emotion. I don't think the overlap was for too long; once she got into the world of Bruce Wayne, her feelings for Dick went on a slow but steady decline into nothingness. But she definitely was working towards a real relationship with Dick that she, by all evidence, seemed to definitely want while maintaining a big fantasy crush on Batman.

24. Do you believe it is possible for two people to be in “puppy love” even when they are old enough to form mature relationships? Explain.

I suppose. "Puppy love" is defined more by one's actions than one's age, so it's not impossible. It's harder for "puppy love" to remain "puppy love" for too long amongst legal and consentable adults, I suspect, but it can exist.

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were ever romantically linked, answer the following multi-part question.

25(a). Relationships that fail to become permanent can be characterized as having an inauguration point, a period of intensification, a peak, a downslope, and a termination. Where in the following timeline would you place (i) the inauguration point, (ii) the peak, and (iii) the termination point of the Barbara/Bruce relationship?
a. Between “Old Wounds” and “Chemistry.”
b. Between “Chemistry” and Mystery of the Batwoman.
c. Between Mystery of the Batwoman and Return of the Joker.
d. Between Return of the Joker and Batman Begins.

I think you mean Batman Beyond. :D

I'd say the real "inauguration point" is post-Chemistry; Bruce has no mental picture of Barbara as possible romance candidate before then. We're post-inauguration by Batwoman. I still think that the romance between them was extremely brief, perhaps even a single night of indiscretion, so that places the peak and the termination point both post-ROTJ.

25(b). Do you believe that Tim Drake and Alfred ever knew that Barbara and Bruce were romantically linked?

Alfred, definitely. (As long as he was still alive, which I'll presume he was.) Tim, maybe not, given that I suspect the affair of being post-ROTJ, and he might have been in therapy or even ejected from Bruce's life by then. I think he was around for some of the hints, but not the main event.

25(c). If you believe that the relationship had yet to begin at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; of Tim’s reaction; of Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

I guess this doesn't apply to me.

25(d). If you believe that the relationship had begun but had not yet peaked at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

By "inauguration", I must say, I presume that it's just a matter of when folks start declaring their intentions more openly, or at least directly hinting. "Folks" being Barbara, I guess. To sum up very quickly my similar answers from TOM's original thread: I think Barbara's being as direct with her innuendo as she can; I think Alfred and Tim are both amused by Bruce being thrown off but also wary of what may come; I think Bruce has some undeniable affection for Barbara due to him trying to spare her feelings, but he's being hunted and it shows.

25(e). If you believe that the relationship had already peaked at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman but not yet ended, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

Not applicable.

25(f). If you believe that the relationship had already ended at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

Not applicable.

25(g). Who do you think ended the relationship? Do you think it was a mutual decision?

As I've imagined it, I think Bruce is the one who said that they could no longer pursue a romantic relationship. I imagine he is disgusted with his own actions and would nip the problem in the bud as soon as he possibly could without letting the mistake linger or grow.

25(h). If the decision to end the relationship was mutual or was forced by Bruce, how do you interpret Commissioner Gordon’s claim that she ended it?

I don't think she's lying, necessarily. I think that Bruce said, "No romance." Then Barbara said, "No anything!", and stormed out of his life completely, both in friendship and crimefighting comradery. That's probably why she thinks she ended it.

25(i). Do you believe Dick Grayson ever found out about the relationship between Barbara and Bruce? If so, do you think it was before, during, or after it occurred? How do you think that knowledge (if he had it) affected his relationship with Barbara and Bruce? Do you think the two of them cared what he thought?

Oy, I have no clue. Dick was pissed at Bruce for Barbara reasons, but not those Barbara reasons. This is an area that would send him way over the edge in terms of fury, I'd gather. Like TOM surmised, he might stay away from Gotham due to Babs and not Bruce. But there's no evidence on this one at all. As far as what Babs and Bruce cared about, I think Babs might not care on this one. She might have just forgotten about him. Bruce wouldn't have, though; the memory of Dick would lay heavily on him and was probably a major reason for the break-up.

25(j). Do you think the relationship between Bruce and Barbara was known to Jim Gordon?

I freakin' hope not.

Again, no evidence to speak of. I hope he died never knowing.

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were never romantically linked, answer the following three-part question.

Not applicable.

27. Do you think that Bruce Wayne, psychologically, has a strong “seducer” streak in his personality? Do you think such an aspect of his personality could have played a part in whatever happened between him and Barbara?

Good question. Andrea Romano has described Kevin Conroy's vocal performance as Batman as being very sexy. However, I don't necessarily think that Bruce is a major seducer. The playboy image seems to be thrust upon him more than it is aggressively pursued by him. He dates constantly and with many women, but never have any of his onscreen dates highlighted a seductive quality coming from him. Mostly, he is the one pursued by women. (The image of Bruce under the mistletoe and the resulting reaction from Holiday Knights springs to mind.) He seems to seduce by accident, or rather, he's just really attractive to women. As Batman, he's even less seductive because he wants to use fear and authority as his weapons of attitude. Again, it's just the body in tights that gets women's attention (like the woman in Fear of Victory). I can only speak from my own male perspective, but these don't seem like seductive personality traits.

Maxie Zeus

09-24-2006, 01:09 AM

I think you mean Batman Beyond. :D

D'oh! Yes. Fixed. :o

I've also edited the quiz to add one more question:

Extra Credit: Compose a short biographical note about Barbara Gordon that uses your answers above to sketch the course of her life as Batgirl and beyond, paying close attention to the nature and circumstances of her relationship with Bruce Wayne and its effect on her life.

Revelator

09-24-2006, 01:22 AM

1. I accept the producers’ word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship and their characterization of it as “wrong.” Though I'm normally of a "trust the tale, not the teller," mindset, in this case the teller's opinion supports what I see in the tale. By "wrong" I believe that Timm means the character's decision was wrong. He doesn't mean that as a storytelling choice it was wrong.

2. Dick is nearly akin to an adopted son who no longer sees eye to eye with his adopted parent, to the extent that they can no longer have a peaceful relationship. Bruce's obligations to Dick essentially ceased when Dick became a self-supporting adult. But Dick is not quite an adopted son either--he's something of a little brother.

3. Whether I'm "okay" with a character's actions counts far less to me than whether I think those actions are in character or not, and whether they lead to an interesting story or not.

4. The affair would have been less "wrong," and less interesting dramatically.
Alex's reponse brings up the age issue between Barbara and Bruce, along with the relationship between Bruce and Gordon. The age things is I think entirely inconsequential. There have been happy and long-lived marriages between couples with one, two, or even three decades between them, just as there have been miserable marriages between couples of the same age. Anyway, what is the age difference between Bruce and Barbara at most? 20 years?
Alex asserts that Gordon sees Batman as a contemporary. I have debated with him on this subject on a previous thread. In brief, I don't believe this and don't see any evidence for it.

5. In some episodes Jim seems to know, in others he's in the dark. And I'm not so sure if Jim really showed a definite preference for Dick over Bruce.

6. Jim is something of a permissive uncle/father surrogate. Because Jim has repeatedly stood up for Batman, Batman feels the obligation to be what Gordon has represented him to be, and to not abuse his trust and leniency.

7. She must guard against ingratitude toward her father and recklessness.

8. Alfred is a psuedo-father figure to Bruce. But he isn't a true father for one important reason--he's not a disciplinary figure. He may scold Bruce, but he has no disciplinary power over him. Gordon is a little more of one, though he even then never gets to administer a spanking. Toward Dick and Babs, Alfred is a sort of grandfather/nanny hybrid. There's a danger in saying that so and so is a father to so and so when these figures are at best approximate fathers and relatives. They're never quite all the way in their positions.

9. No, though I think she's happy with her marriage and position.

10(a). In old age, Barbara Gordon is married to Bruce Wayne, and they have retired happily from superhero work, though they still do a good deal as public figures and armchair detectives. Terry who?

Alex writes, "It was a stupid move, Babs. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Batman ain't interested, Bruce ain't interested, and you played on his hormones to the breaking point. Worse, you had a perfectly excellent boyfriend in Dick that was fully equipped to give you anything you wanted out of life."

This is too c--ksure. How does one know that Batman and Bruce weren't interested? In many ways Batgirl would have been the best romantic partner Bruce could have wanted--someone who wouldn't be worrying about him every night because she'd be out there fighting by his side. For all we know, Bruce might have also thought he'd found the perfect combination of a romantic/professional mate. And was Dick Grayson really that excellent of a boyfriend? Was he really prepared to give her anything he wanted? The angry, moody, sneering figure I saw in "Old Wounds" might have blamed all his personality defects on Batman, but I can understand Barbara perhaps finding Dick to be a less than desirable partner. If I got the chance to work with a man I admired, only to find my boyfriend pissing all over that prospect, perhaps I'd consider myself the victim of "puppy love" too. The fact is that I don't think Dick and Barbara were much of a couple to begin with. They seem like an appropriate match because of their positions, but that's about it.

10(b). I believe my scenario corresponds to Barbara's desires, as I understand them.

11. Yes, since Bruce's character proved immutable. She made a mistake loving him, but she's otherwise doing all right with her job and loving husband.

12. N/A

13. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

14. Agree.

15. Barbara Gordon's schoolgirl crush on Batman seemed to have disappeared after she joined the Bat-family--there's little in TNBA to hint at any outwardly expressed romantic feelings on her part, though perhaps they were silently, slowly brewing.

16. My suspicion is that Barbara left Batman after her affair with Bruce ended. My guess was that by this time the Bat-family had nearly ceased to be, with Tim retired and Dick in Bludhaven. Few experiences are more unnerving than working side by side with someone you've just broken up with, so I think Barbara would stopped working with Bruce after the affair.

17. Disagree.

18. Strongly disagree.

19. Agree.

20. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson--they evaporated, but they could have been easily rekindled if Dick had reapproached her. In Chemistry Barbara seems to show an approachability that Dick scorns, like the Dick that he is.

21. Agree.

22. Disagree.

23. Disagree, though it would have been dramatically interesting.

24. By "puppy love" I think Barbara was trying to say that though she was strongly attracted and besotted with Dick, those feelings, no matter how strong they were, weren't as great as the attraction and love she felt for Bruce. In other words, Dick/Babs wasn't "puupy love" in itself, but it seemed that way next to Bruce/Barbara.

25(a). Inauguration, peak and termination: between Mystery of the Batwoman and Curare.

25(b). Yes.

25(c). The weird reactions I blame on Michael Reaves, who wasn't involved with writing TNBA or Beyond. Alan Burnett was, but he seems to have decided on pursuing a course that doesn't really mesh with what went before. Either that or he'd forgotten his earlier work due to astonishing attack of amnesia. Batwoman is an anomaly in many ways, including the romantic ones (how TNBA Bruce could ever fall for Cathy is beyond me). Verdict: forgetful or unaware writers.

25.(g) I think Barbara finally realized that Bruce considered himself permanently married, and she got tired of being competing with an unbeatable succubus of a woman.

25(i). Yes, probably during its occurence. Since he was already in Bludhaven at the time, he may have been angered, but he was already out of their daily lives. Bruce and Barbara probably didn't want to hurt him, but love mows down everything in its path.

25(j). I think the relationship was a secret thing. Gordon perhaps found out at its tail-end. This question seems to have made Alex squeamish.

26. N/A

27. Is Bruce a seducer? No. Like Cary Grant, he's more pursued after than pursuing. Andrea, Catwoman, and Talia all made the first moves. He did come on to Lois, but that's really the apex of Bruce as seducer, and a prefiguring of his more James Bondish persona that arises whenever he has to contrast with figures like Superman and the Justice League. I think that part of Bruce is immensely attracted to the idea of finding the solace of love with the right woman, but this part is in continual war with Batman.

Conclusion: Much of what I have written, and much of what anyone will write on this topic, whether they're as smart as Maxie and Alex or the opposite, will ultimately be little more than opinionated conjecture. We never actually saw Bruce and Barbara in love. We really have no direct evidence of what their relationship was like. As a result of this vacuum, some see Barbara as a conniving Bat-Yoko, while others see her as a woman who made an unwise but understandable and human choice.
The constant I always return to is the Arthurian legend of the adulterous love between Lancelot and Guenevere, which ultimately destroyed a kingdom. Their love was also "wrong," but it made for a fantastic story. The problem with the Bruce/Barbara affiar is that it made for a fantastic explanation of Barbara's antagonism in Batman Beyond, but the actual story was never really shown. I suspect that their affair would be quite differently viewed if we had ever had a true glimpse at it, rather than a verbal account. Because then the story would have moved into the shape of an unfolding drama, with clearer actions and motivations, rather than simply consisting of a speech.

James

09-24-2006, 10:52 AM

QUIZ TIME!

Okay you false god, bring it on once more. I'll bite. Nash nash.

1. Please endorse at least one of the following statements. If none of them reflect your beliefs, state your preferred option.

d. I believe that the producers’ assertions about Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne are irrelevant to deciding what actually happened. However, I believe that the actual evidence of the series supports their characterization of what happened.

2. What exactly is Dick to Bruce? And don't say "his ward," because that's a legal term. In emotional bonds, what are they? What, if any, are Bruce/Batman's obligations to Dick?

To support his growth in any way possible; to support his route to adulthood; to give him stability and strength to become his own man despite his painful past. I would suggest Bruce betrayed his emotional role as guardian way before Barbara by bringing Dick into his own crusade. I would say this as a paternal figure and as a legal ward.

3. If you see Bruce and Dick as parent-and-child, would you be okay with Barb's behavior if she had been a man who dated daughter then mother? If you see Bruce and Dick as brothers, would you be okay with it if Barb was a man who dated a younger sister then her older sister?

Dick was an adult when he left Barbara. Barbara was an adult. It was Dick's choice, so I don't see a massive ethical dilemma here. I don't think there was any betrayal. Furthermore, the first real indication of something happening between Barbara and Bruce is post TNBA, and in JL (Maid of Honor). Though that is not to say nothing could potentially have happened between Old Wounds and Maid of Honor, on evidence alone, there is nothing to suggest it did.

So furthermore, there is a question as to whether Bruce and Dick weren't at loggerheads over the issue when it occured. For all we know, it had Dick's blessing. While the question doesn't ask for anything as deep rooted in its answer I feel, the drive of the question betrays the evidence of the situation somewhat. By the time we assume anything occured, Dick had left Bruce's guardianship and had years on his own, as an adult and as part of the team. I don't the question in context is very simple.

4. If Dick Grayson had never existed, would it change your opinion of the proposed Bruce/Barbara affair?

No.

5. Do you think the animated James Gordon knows Batman's identity? Do you believe this knowledge (or lack of knowledge) was a factor in Jim's demonstrated preference for Dick Grayson as his daughter's suitor?

Yes. I think the whole point of Over the Edge is to suggest just this, otherwise there is no true conclusions to the issues raised in the tale. The whole tale is based on the repercussions of Barbara's death BASED on the premise that Gordon is unaware of her activities. If he didn't know in the epilogue, then the issue is unresolved. For while he gives Barbara the blessing of her independence, any such revelation of Barbara's involvement in Bruce's dangerous and illegal world would be so far beyond the perameters he was referring to that it would be a different ball game. Thereby it wouldn't counter the fear of reprisals that Barbara had. I think the epilogue has to be saying to the audience that Jim is aware of Barbara's role and by extension as a detective, is fairly sure who Batman is - a fact he doesn't want to face with any validity.

So far as Dick Grayson goes, no I don't believe at the time of Sub Zero he was aware of Bruce's identity. There is no evidence I can recall to imply he does, so I don't think his blessing with Grayson was based on any secret knowledge. I would suggest it wasn't until Barbara became closer to the team that Jim would formulate any suspicions. I'd imagine that Barbara's involvement would be the catalyst for any revelations rather than the other way round.

6. What exactly is James Gordon to the Batman? What, if any, obligations does Batman have to him?

What obligations does a policeman have to his father in law? Or a fireman? We do what we have to do in life and it's up to the partner to decide whether that is appropriate and the father to respect his daughter/son's choice.

The only complication that is very present which COULD affect Jim is his standing as Commissioner given any exposure of Barbara could reflect badly on him and his department. But then is this Bruce's dilemma, or is it Barbara's? Because she in the end is the catalyst for destruction on both sides (Over the Edge), not just for Jim's career. Should the question be aimed at Bruce, or should it be aimed at Barbara?

7. Although Barbara obviously misread her father's feelings and beliefs in TNBA's "Over The Edge," she's correct that her choices could cost him his career. What, if any, are her obligations to him?[/b

Hehe. I didn't read question 7 and my answer to question 6 dovetails nicely. It depends on whether one feels blood is thicker than water. They are adults. She no longer lives under his guardianship. She is free to do as she wishes. Anyone in a high profile role risks damage from choices made by those close to them. We need to be able to appreciate that our offspring need the space to make those choices and hope their choices reflect well on their characters rather than on how they may reflect on us. In fact, her role is very much the same as his, just society deems it different. In fact, has Jim Gordon got any high ground to stand on her choice - or obligations - to him as a father when he endorses the role of the Batman? Has he not, in a way, accepted the validity in such a vocation and thereby validated it's relevance? Could the question be whether it's his choices in his career that carry the moral question over the issue of Barbara's obligations, being as the former has - in a way - validated the latter?

8. What is Alfred’s relation to Bruce Wayne/Batman? To Dick Grayson? To Barbara Gordon?

He is a friend. Close friend. Family even, certainly to Dick and Bruce, by extension to Barbara. His role is to support his family in whatever role they choose. He can offer opinion, but ultimately our choices are our own.

The next section concentrates on Barbara Gordon’s overall career.

9. Do you believe that Barbara Gordon’s life, as it plays out through Batman Beyond, is the best life that she could reasonably hope for?

No. I don't think any of Batman's choices or his Batfriends were sound. I don't believe his crusade was marked for anyone but him and he shouldn't have involved anyone. I think - as with Dick - she'd have had a brighter and more positive life away from Wayne's influence.

If your answer to Question 9 was “No,” answer to the following two-part question:

10(a). Please choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion would be an aspect of her optimal life. Note that several combinations of answers are possible. Consider the possible combinations carefully.

i. Bruce Wayne gave up caped crusading soon after he and Barbara became romantically linked.
k. Barbara Gordon gave up being Batgirl early on.
l. Barbara Gordon never became Batgirl.

10(b). Do you believe that Barbara Gordon, looking back on her life, would regard your choice for her life as the optimal one, or do you think she would fail to recognize that the life you chose for her would be the best one she could have had? Explain.

For i). We have an idealised none realistic option. I don't think Bruce could EVER give up Batman, but on the premise of the statement that he did, I don't see why they couldn't have had a good life. There is a lot of respect for each other, there is strength of character, similar moralistic perspectives and as with many "war" veterans, the bonding of danger to have brought them close. But I don't see it as a viable outcome - and I don't think old Barbara would.

K&L recognize the fact exposure to the underside of Gotham is not a healthy thing. The more exposure there is, the more baggage rests on the person. I don't think Barbara's bitterness in BB is really just Batman, but the life the Bat brought her into. The implication she was shot (as mentioned in MZ opening comments), seeing Tim Drake abused, seeing Drakes abuse damage her friends, seeing the dark and deadly side of Gotham and dealing with her inability to solve that ongoing problems. I'm not sure if it hadn't been for Batman that she'd have followed her fathers footsteps. I don't doubt that Barbara would have had a better life if she'd NEVER donned the Batgirl suit, and that to me is the key to all her troubles not just Bruce.

[b]11. Do you believe that the elderly Barbara Gordon regards her life as the best one she could have led?

No.

12. If your answer to Question 11 was “No” and your answer to Question 10(b) was “She would not choose the life I think optimal for her,” choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion Barbara Gordon would have preferred to see come to pass.
j. Barbara Gordon gave up being Batgirl early on.
k. Barbara Gordon never became Batgirl.

Again, the same applies. The roots of all ills comes from Barbara's OWN choice to become Batgirl. While she may feel she's done good in that role, I think in her life overall, she'd recognize the pain that came with the cape and maybe how much of a normal life she lost due to circumstances and people that were a part of it.

The next section directly addresses the issue of whether Barbara and Bruce ever had a romantic entanglement with each other.

Characterize your responses to the following statements. You may explain your answers if you wish.

13. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman before she first donned the Batgirl costume (pre-“Shadow of the Bat”)
a. Strongly agree.

14. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she donned the Batgirl costume but before she joined the Bat family.
b. Agree

15. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she joined the Bat family.
c. Disagree.

16. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she left the Bat family.
b. Agree

17. Barbara Gordon continues to harbor romantic feelings for Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond.
c. Disagree.

18. Barbara Gordon never harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
c. Disagree.

19. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after Dick quit the Bat family.
c. Disagree.

20. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after he returned as Nightwing.
c. Disagree.

21. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson at one time, but they eventually evaporated.
b. Agree

22. Barbara Gordon never lost her strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
d. Strongly disagree.

23. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne simultaneously.
d. Strongly disagree.

24. Do you believe it is possible for two people to be in “puppy love” even when they are old enough to form mature relationships? Explain.

Age doesn't denote maturity. Experience is the key. I don't get the impression Barbara was that experienced by the time she met Dick.

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were ever romantically linked, answer the following multi-part question.[b]

25(a). Relationships that fail to become permanent can be characterized as having an inauguration point, a period of intensification, a peak, a downslope, and a termination. Where in the following timeline would you place (i) the inauguration point, (ii) the peak, and (iii) the termination point of the Barbara/Bruce relationship?
c. Between Mystery of the Batwoman and Return of the Joker.

25(b). Do you believe that Tim Drake and Alfred ever knew that Barbara and Bruce were romantically linked?

Yes.

25(c). If you believe that the relationship had yet to begin at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; of Tim’s reaction; of Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

This is all pretty much conjecture, but logically, I'd say it was the start of a relationship that DIDN'T form. Given WW is in the picture much more by JLU, and that clearly Bruce is uncomfortable with getting too close to his colleagues (as he says to WW in JLU), I would say, he "escapes" this situation, only to fall into a romance later on. This would support what seems to be his far strong feelings present in "Out of the Past", the fact that TOC implies Barbara and Bruce were in a relationship when she left him, and gives space for WW in JLU. I would say the guys reaction is teasing. Without evidence of what started the relationship it's hard to say. It would to me seem they are amused to see Bruce take on more human traits.

25(d). If you believe that the relationship had begun but had not yet peaked at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?

Again, I'm vague as there is so little info. Again, it's fairly frivilous, probably more than the situation requires, but people do that when they are in a situation which isn't defining or problematic. People make light of issues to defuse them. Again, with so little evidence, and it being a scene played for comedy rather than character, it's hard to say.

25(g). Who do you think ended the relationship? Do you think it was a mutual decision?

Barbara I think ended it, but I think Bruce probably knew she was going to based on what Bara says in TOC.

25(i). Do you believe Dick Grayson ever found out about the relationship between Barbara and Bruce? If so, do you think it was before, during, or after it occurred? How do you think that knowledge (if he had it) affected his relationship with Barbara and Bruce? Do you think the two of them cared what he thought?

Too subjective to say. I would THINK that he'd be aware of it. He's a detective, he would probably see the signs. I think both would have cared and I don't think EITHER would have prioritised the relationship over his feelings if they didn't believe he had truly moved on and/or endorsed it.

25(j). Do you think the relationship between Bruce and Barbara was known to Jim Gordon?

No idea.

27. Do you think that Bruce Wayne, psychologically, has a strong “seducer” streak in his personality? Do you think such an aspect of his personality could have played a part in whatever happened between him and Barbara?

No, I think it would be a natural bond brought on from work. We see no attempts to seduce from Bruce in TNBA, and he's obviously aware of the issues of close working romances (JLU), so I'd say it was something that simply got too close, he backed off and then it naturally reinitiated later on around ROTJ flashback (maybe that re-initiated it after some time - the pain of the loss of Drake). People who work, live and fight in close quarters do come close, often without realising it. Bruce is a fairly moral person and given Grayson's past, I don't think he would have consciously or subconsciously gone after Barb.

Extra Credit: Compose a short biographical note about Barbara Gordon that uses your answers above to sketch the course of her life as Batgirl and beyond, paying close attention to the nature and circumstances of her relationship with Bruce Wayne and its effect on her life.

I'd say that Barbara was romantically interested in the Batman PERSONA, and continued to be as a fantasy. Even when seeing Dick, I'd imagine that dream was there as a harmless bit of fun. When Bruce is revealed and the Batman becomes a real person, I doubt the fantasy remained, in fact TNBA implies she's still interested in Dick, but he knocks her back. I imagine a close quarters working friendship with Bruce creates an intimate moment which Barbara is keen to pursue and Bruce isn't. I would say Barbara uses the education to pursue a role in the Police (a la NW in the comics). Later on, probably when the Batcave is somewhat lonelier or one of the two is vunerable (ROTJ?), it initiates as a proper relationship, bringing happiness for a short period before the Bat takes over once more. There is a situation where Barb is shot, she survives, but the game is no longer fun, and Bruce won't leave - so she leaves him. He carries on his quest, she moves through the police ranks and becomes Commisioner.

Alex Weitzman

09-24-2006, 11:59 AM

D'oh! Yes. Fixed. :o

I've also edited the quiz to add one more question:

Extra Credit: Compose a short biographical note about Barbara Gordon that uses your answers above to sketch the course of her life as Batgirl and beyond, paying close attention to the nature and circumstances of her relationship with Bruce Wayne and its effect on her life.

Despite some of my personal belief in the idiocy of Barbara's actions and my calling her an opportunist in so many words in my other essay, I don't think she exactly meant it to happen this way. Barbara Gordon was in love with Dick Grayson, who returned her love. She was on a steady course to happiness with him. However, as a girl who idealized the work her father did and found excitement in the indulgement of a vigilante life, she also had a fantasy crush on the muscled and intense Batman. This was both not okay and okay, because while she did have an access to Batman that she could have used if she wanted, Batman remained a remote presence in her life at best. Then, due to the growing rift between Dick and Bruce, Bruce revealed all secrets between the three to Barbara. This was intended to eliminate her confusion regarding Dick's actions and angers, allowing them freer passage into domestic bliss. However, this also unconsciously set off Barbara's fantasy, manifesting itself at this point as an instant desire to fight alongside Batman as an official partner. This causes a break between Dick and Barbara: Barbara felt that Dick's anger at her was indicative of him suppressing her unfairly, while Dick felt that Barbara's callousness to his problem was indicative of her already rejecting him. When Dick returns as Nightwing, he acts like her bitter ex-boyfriend without her being even entirely aware they'd completely broken up. From there, then, she has only Bruce to dream about; as she continues to work alongside him both out of a desire for justice and also a satisfaction of being a part of the inner family. At some point, though, she starts becoming more direct with him, more blatantly exhibiting her interest in Bruce. Bruce does not slap this down, meaning he cannot completely deny the possibility, but it is something he would avoid if he could. Eventually, though, they do come together in a sexual way, but the finality of that action, once done, shocks Bruce out of needing to handle Barbara and her desire with kid gloves. He calls off the relationship close to instantly. Hurt by the rejection, especially after what they had done together, Barbara calls off all interaction between them so she can maintain some authority in the situation, and walks out for good. She continues on the path to becoming Police Commissioner, as well as meeting, courting, and marrying Sam Young. She also, from a remote position, sees Bruce mutate into an encrusted and reclusive old hermit, and pities him for making ill choices. Inevitably, she finds herself in a position more like her father's than she expected (due to the introduction of Terry), and when pressed to make choices like what her father made, she finds that her experiences behind the cape and with Bruce cause her to react differently than Jim Gordon - more harshly and less accomodating.

This was probably longer than you expected.

Alex Weitzman

09-24-2006, 12:54 PM

This is too c--ksure. How does one know that Batman and Bruce weren't interested? In many ways Batgirl would have been the best romantic partner Bruce could have wanted--someone who wouldn't be worrying about him every night because she'd be out there fighting by his side. For all we know, Bruce might have also thought he'd found the perfect combination of a romantic/professional mate. And was Dick Grayson really that excellent of a boyfriend? Was he really prepared to give her anything he wanted? The angry, moody, sneering figure I saw in "Old Wounds" might have blamed all his personality defects on Batman, but I can understand Barbara perhaps finding Dick to be a less than desirable partner. If I got the chance to work with a man I admired, only to find my boyfriend pissing all over that prospect, perhaps I'd consider myself the victim of "puppy love" too. The fact is that I don't think Dick and Barbara were much of a couple to begin with. They seem like an appropriate match because of their positions, but that's about it.

First off, it will be difficult for us to debate whether Bruce was or was not interested in pursuing a relationship with Barbara because I consider Batwoman canon and you apparently do not. Batwoman is where I get most of my perception of Bruce's feelings towards the relationship from, so we really can't talk about it much if you don't think this stuff even counts. I will say this: obviously there's some interest on Bruce's part. Barbara would never be able to force him into anything. He could very well have changed his mind at some point. But, from what I've seen in Batwoman, Bruce is sending off just as many inferences as she is: he's implying, "Please, please, don't talk to me this way." This has everything to do with what Maxie is talking about in regards to the difference between "character" and "agent" - while we can all agree that at some point Bruce got interested, the agent Bruce during Batwoman is definitely not.

As for Dick and Barbara's relationship: is it fair to analyze it just from the perspective of Old Wounds? Look at their interactions in things like Batgirl Returns and SubZero. They compliment each other's strong points and cut to the quick of each other's foibles. This is what you want in a life partner: somebody who can both love your best qualities and not take the BS of your worst. This is what Sam Young is like to old Barbara, and I think we can all agree that Sam is a great husband for Barbara. In Old Wounds, nobody was at their best, and the mistakes that both Dick and Barbara make is in putting their own issues first without even considering what the other might be going through. The reason I come down harder on Barbara in this case is because her issue is, to me personally, less important. She also was more aware of Dick's problem than Dick was of hers, and still chose to not care about it. Dick couldn't have known that she wanted to be Batman's sidekick (although he could have figured it out), but Barbara did know about Dick's problems, and her realization of all surprises happened well before the big rooftop fight between the three heroes. She could have been much smarter about the fight.

Maxie Zeus

09-24-2006, 03:30 PM

Well, I should take some of my own medicine if I’m going to ask others to.

1. Please endorse at least one of the following statements. If none of them reflect your beliefs, state your preferred option.
b. I accept the producers’ word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship and their characterization of it as “wrong.” I further accept that all the evidence in the series supports their characterization of what happened.

Like Alex, I’ll borrow my answers to some of these questions from what I said in the original thread.

2. What exactly is Dick to Bruce? And don't say "his ward," because that's a legal term. In emotional bonds, what are they? What, if any, are Bruce/Batman's obligations to Dick?
At most, it's a mentor-trainee relationship with overtones of "comrade in arms." Dick was an only child whose memories of his own parents are too strong; there is no way he can see Bruce as a father- or brother-figure. He's a teacher and a friend, though obviously the relationship is a very intimate one.

Same for Bruce: His family feelings are wrapped up in his relationship with his dead parents, and as Batman he's interested in the abstract "concept" of what it means to be a caped crusader. Toward "Robin" he is merely the trainer of the next generation; toward Dick he is someone showing compassion. But, again, the relationship is intense, as it is between soldiers in a war.

As soldiers, their duties to each other are mostly symmtrical: you treat him with honesty, respect and unswerving support and loyalty. You don't do anything to make him suspect that you're not trustworthy. Bruce has an added responsibility, though: to be a good role-model to Dick and to understand that he is still immature in many ways, meaning that Bruce has to calibrate his toughness and his gentleness.

3. If you see Bruce and Dick as parent-and-child, would you be okay with Barb's behavior if she had been a man who dated daughter then mother? If you see Bruce and Dick as brothers, would you be okay with it if Barb was a man who dated a younger sister then her older sister?
Since I don't see a familial relationship, I don't see an incest angle at work here. It's still nasty, but it shouldn't have psychosexual ramifications.

4. If Dick Grayson had never existed, would it change your opinion of the proposed Bruce/Barbara affair?
No, it wouldn't change my opinion; I think it's a bad idea regardless. It mixes the personal and the professional in a way that risks serious damage to both parties on both levels. That Dick's ego and heart got squushed only added insult to injury.

5. Do you think the animated James Gordon knows Batman's identity? Do you believe this knowledge (or lack of knowledge) was a factor in Jim's demonstrated preference for Dick Grayson as his daughter's suitor?
I don't know what Jim Gordon knew or when he knew it. And it's a profitless questions because you can speculate endlessly because the evidence is so thin.

6. What exactly is James Gordon to the Batman? What, if any, obligations does Batman have to him?
Father-figure. This is where the incest angle enters for me. Or worse. I imagine Bruce tossing and turning in bed, wondering whether to pop the question to Barbara. He falls asleep, and finds himself, in a tux, standing in front of a preacher with the bride (in white veil) by his side. The preacher pronounces "Bruce Wayne and Barbara Gordon" man and wife. Bruce lifts the veil--and finds Jim Gordon underneath. He wakes in a panicked sweat.

No, I'm not serious. But sometimes I feel malicious.

7. Although Barbara obviously misread her father's feelings and beliefs in TNBA's "Over The Edge," she's correct that her choices could cost him his career. What, if any, are her obligations to him?
Not to get killed, not to get unmasked, and not to screw up her relationship with Batman, Nightwing and Robin in a way that would force her father to have to choose between loyalty to her and loyalty to them.

8. What is Alfred’s relation to Bruce Wayne/Batman? To Dick Grayson? To Barbara Gordon?

He is something less than a Father but more than a Conscience for Bruce. He cannot replace or act as a father figure to Bruce, but he is the sole remaining link to the humane and normal life that Bruce lost. He represents virtues that Batman cannot forget without losing his moral bearings. He doesn’t voice them—he doesn’t lecture Bruce—but he exemplifies them

For Dick, he is the interpreter and go-between that reconciles him to the austere Batman. Bruce can’t be a father to Dick—Grayson had his own parents, and there is no manner in which Bruce can replace them—which is why Batman is more like a fellow soldier. But because they live together and because Bruce does exercise a kind of familial authority over him as his guardian, Alfred has to be there as a kind of buffer.

Alfred is just an aide-de-camp to Barbara. Someone dear and sweet, but that’s all.

9. Do you believe that Barbara Gordon’s life, as it plays out through Batman Beyond, is the best life that she could reasonably hope for?
No. It’s not the worst—“Over the Edge” imagined that, and many less insane outcomes would be worse—but it sure ain’t optimal.

10(a). Please choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion would be an aspect of her optimal life. Note that several combinations of answers are possible. Consider the possible combinations carefully.[/b]
b. In old age, Barbara Gordon is police commissioner but is friendly with Bruce Wayne and helps him train Terry McGinnis.
d. In old age, Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson are romantically involved with each other.
h. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were never romantically linked.
j. Barbara Gordon had a considerable run as Batgirl but never became one of Batman’s teammates.
m. Barbara was invited into the Bat family and learned their identities, and cooperated with them, but declined to explicitly join.

When I composed this question, I knew it would be the trickiest to answer.

I think she needs to be Batgirl; she needs the experience and the adventure. But she needs to stay out of the Bat family; Batman is a great crimefighter, but he breaks his associates. This means she stays out of Bruce’s life and in Dick’s, where she can help keep him sane and can act as “go between” after Alfred is gone. The end of her career as Batgirl should not mark the end of her career as a crimefighter; she should move into law enforcement—it would show her greater honor and respect for her father to follow his example. She’s necessary for Terry’s happiness, but less as a trainer (Bruce is good enough for that solo) than as the moral example that Alfred and Jim Gordon represented.

10(b). Do you believe that Barbara Gordon, looking back on her life, would regard your choice for her life as the optimal one, or do you think she would fail to recognize that the life you chose for her would be the best one she could have had? Explain.
This is the other really tricky question. Because if Barbara is foolish enough to have fallen into the traps she actually fell into, is she, in her old age, wise enough to see a better course? Basically: In Batman Beyond does she regret her choices, or does she regret that her choices didn’t pan out the way she wanted?

Her speeches in “A Touch of Curare,” it seems to me, show a woman too vexed by Bruce and too dismissive of Dick to recognize what she should have done. If given my scenario as an alternate life, she might admit it would have been better for her, but I don’t think her heart would be in it.

11. Do you believe that the elderly Barbara Gordon regards her life as the best one she could have led?
No.

12. If your answer to Question 11 was “No” and your answer to Question 10(b) was “She would not choose the life I think optimal for her,” choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion Barbara Gordon would have preferred to see come to pass.
b. Barbara Gordon never became police commissioner.
f. Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne continue to be romantically linked, but he gave up caped crusading soon after they got together.
l. Bruce Wayne gave up caped crusading to pursue a career that led him to become police commissioner, district attorney, or mayor.

Bagging Batman would be the second-greatest triumph she could realize. Seducing him into giving up his Wife (being Batman) would be the greatest. Getting him to switch into law enforcement or governance of some kind would allow her to think that the disappearance of Batman would be no great loss. And getting him to take over her father’s old office would be, in some sense, to let her combine the two loves of her life.

13. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman before she first donned the Batgirl costume (pre-“Shadow of the Bat”)
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

14. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she donned the Batgirl costume but before she joined the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree: See “Batgirl Returns.”

15. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she joined the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree. See Mystery of the Batwoman.

16. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she left the Bat family.
b. Agree. She’s too much the woman scorned in Beyond for me to she was cured of Bat-fever before she left the Bat family.

17. Barbara Gordon continues to harbor romantic feelings for Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond.
c. Disagree. But not strongly. Her buttons get pushed when Bruce is around. It’s a little hard to believe that all her feelings are dead.

18. Barbara Gordon never harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
d. Strongly disagree.

19. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after Dick quit the Bat family.
c. Disagree.

20. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after he returned as Nightwing.
c. Disagree.

21. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson at one time, but they eventually evaporated.
b. Agree. She’s too dismissive of him in “A Touch of Curare.” She speaks more tenderly about Bruce than about Dick.

22. Barbara Gordon never lost her strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
c. Disagree.

23. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne simultaneously.
a. Strongly Agree. See “Batgirl Returns.”

24. Do you believe it is possible for two people to be in “puppy love” even when they are old enough to form mature relationships? Explain.
I do think it’s possible. Once you reach a certain age, your ability to form serious relationships is less a matter of maturity than a matter of attitude. By the time of TNBA I think Barbara was old enough to be responsible for how she treated Dick and Bruce. But that doesn’t mean that she would act responsibly. I’m not convinced she ever took Dick as seriously as she took Bruce. The prospect of bagging Batman (and then discovering that bagging Batman also means bagging billionaire Bruce Wayne) could concentrate the mind powerfully. Originally, Dick was just a peer, a guy she knew in college. And Barbara was powerfully ambitious even back then. It would be very easy for her to take him seriously only as a transition figure—a boy toy.

(In fact, I’ve known women who had—who had for several years—boyfriends who were tremendously good catches, and who ultimately alienated those boyfriends because they were too concentrated on their ambitions and who actually thought that those boyfriends weren’t good enough for them. Basically, these were women who thought they were destined for star jobs in the business or government worlds, and who thought their boyfriends were good enough as college-age sexual toys, but who would never be good enough as a trophy husband. They were, by the way, very, very wrong.)

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were ever romantically linked, answer the following multi-part question.

I composed this quiz before thinking hard about the answers I’d give. And this section, I’ve discovered, is the hardest to figure out. So I’m going to pause here and write out my reasoning before answering the questions. Because I’m coming into this section without any strong prior intuitions.

The telephone scene in Mystery of the Batwoman is difficult to interpret; no one says anything directly. The meaning and intimations are indirect; whatever is said is said between the lines; what there is, is subtext.

Start with Alfred and Tim. Both clearly know that love is in the air. They also know that it isn’t a big or sensitive secret, because both are willing to comment quite casually about it. Of course, Tim’s a kid, and he’ll be quicker to act like a jerk. But even Alfred seems to have no qualms about chiming in. If Alfred doesn’t feel the need to keep his mouth shut, it seems a fair bet that whatever is going on is not regarded by anyone—even by Bruce and Barbara—as something purely private.

But just because “love is in the air” doesn’t mean that something is, has, or is about to happen between them. It could just be that Barbara has been extremely unsubtle about sending signals; in effect, she’s been pinning “Love Is …” cartoons to the Bat computer, carving “BW + BG” into the Batcave walls, and scribbling “Mrs. Barbara Gordon” on her Trapper Keeper. It’s not a good look for her, and it would explain why Bruce is so uncomfortable, and why Tim and Alfred seem rather overtly contemptuous. But I have a hard time believing that this is what’s going on. Bruce is too much the professional. If he wasn’t interested, he would have taken Barbara aside long before and told her to cut it out. If he was open to “possibilities,” he wouldn’t have let things drift, either.

So I think something is going on, and I don’t think Bruce is trying to be furtive about it either. If something is going on, it’s not an “open secret.” It’s very much in the open.

How far have things progressed? Now let’s look at Barbara’s end of the conversation. She’s very tentative. She doesn’t say anything directly. She’s pressing a point, but gingerly. This seems to me the attitude of someone who thinks something real is happening, but is unsure of how fragile it is. If she thought she and Bruce were on firm ground, she would be much more confident: she would either bluntly ask Bruce what the hell is up with Batwoman, or she’d be a lot bolder teasing him about his looking for a new “Bat female.” If she thought the relationship was hitting the skids, I think she’d also be much bolder. She’d be angry and hurt, not girlish. So Barbara thinks the relationship is still in its early, delicate stages.

Whether she’s right depends upon Bruce’s attitude. Does he think the relationship is in its early stages? Or is he trying to back out of something he’s decided not to pursue?

Early in the conversation, Bruce is trying to be noncommittal. That makes him hard to read. But he loses it at the end: the “We’re going through a tunnel” is astonishingly clumsy; it’s the act of a man in a panic. Why is Bruce panicking?

Well, it might be that he’s decided that whatever is happening has been a mistake, and he’s trying to distance himself from Barbara by acting cold and correct. But don’t forget that Bruce has a well-established reputation as a playboy: He’s a love-em-and-leave-em type, as has been established elsewhere. So he’s had practice at cutting things off, and this is surely not the first time he’s been ambushed by an awkward phone call. True, Barbara isn’t one of his silly society playthings. But if he were retreating, he’d be much more smooth about it.

So I think he’s panicking because, like Barbara, he’s not sure what this relationship portends. The Old Maid argues that Bruce does nothing without a plan. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be surprised.

IMO, Barbara and Bruce sound like ordinary people in the delicate early stages of an overt relationship. She’s worried that the relationship is not (yet) as serious as she had supposed it to be. He’s discovered that the heart is not a rational organ.

That’s doesn’t indicate that he’s leaning toward or away from Barbara. Isn’t mean that he is leaning in either direction.

The Old Maid is right. Bruce would not encourage or enter into a relationship with Batgirl unless he’d done some hard thinking about what it would entail and where it would lead. Of course, Bruce is smart enough to realize that (in love as in war) no plan survives contact with the enemy. So he would not present Barbara with a contract—the Bat family equivalent of a pre-nup—spelling out commitments on either side. Rather, he’d have in his own mind a set of expectations and tests. If Barbara lives up to his (private) expectations, great. If she doesn’t, he’d have some exit strategy in mind.

So why is he by turns guarded and flustered on the phone? I think there has recently been a movement on the battlefield that has surprised and disconcerted him.

I think events are too early for Barbara to have made a surprise move. Possibly, he went into the affair thinking that he and she were going to treat it as casual fun, and is surprised that she is taking it much more seriously. But I doubt he would have gone into such an affair: the dangers are just too obvious. So my intuition says he has surprised himself.

It’s impossible to say how he’s surprised himself. But there are two possibilities I can see.

First, I think he might surprise himself by discovering that he’s not as serious about Barbara as he thought he was. I said in the original thread that Bruce has a seducer’s streak in him. But I doubt he recognizes it in himself. It’s not a happy quality to have, so he’d be interested in denying it. Moreover, he could easily convince himself that his facile ability to love-em-and-leave-em is just part of his playboy act. So he might have gone into a romance with Barbara thinking that this was going to be something serious, and have shocked himself by discovering that his feelings toward and treatment of her were paralleling his feelings and treatment of the society butterflies.

Alternately, he might surprise himself by discovering that he’s inclined to modify “the plan.” That plan, surely, would include his continuing as the Batman. But in “Chemistry” his feelings (though they were chemically induced) for Susan were strong enough that he gave up that life—with disastrous results. If he finds his feelings for Barbara beginning to track those he had for Susan he would be totally discombobulated.

I raise these possibilities without endorsing either one.

So:

25(a). Relationships that fail to become permanent can be characterized as having an inauguration point, a period of intensification, a peak, a downslope, and a termination. Where in the following timeline would you place (i) the inauguration point, (ii) the peak, and (iii) the termination point of the Barbara/Bruce relationship?
a. Between “Old Wounds” and “Chemistry.”
b. Between “Chemistry” and Mystery of the Batwoman.
c. Between Mystery of the Batwoman and Return of the Joker.
d. Between Return of the Joker and Batman Beyond.[/b]

Inaugurated: b. Between “Chemistry” and Mystery of the Batwoman.
Peaked: d. Between Return of the Joker and Batman Beyond.
Terminated: Same as above.

25(b). Do you believe that Tim Drake and Alfred ever knew that Barbara and Bruce were romantically linked?
Yes. As explained above, they’re just to casual with their comments.

25(d). If you believe that the relationship had begun but had not yet peaked at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; Tim’s reaction; and Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?
To summarize my reflections above: Bruce is flustered because things are going according to plan. But I don’t know what exactly has surprised him. Tim is acting like a loathsome teenager. Alfred … Well, Alfred has an opinion, but I think he’s being too tactful to express himself directly. The Old Maid thinks he’s giving Bruce an “attaboy.” But Bruce is being so obviously clumsy on the phone that Alfred has to see it; he’s not an idiot. I think he’s being subtly sarcastic, the more diplomatic equivalent of slowly clapping his hands and sneering “Nice shot, jerkwad.” And Barbara is serious enough about Bruce to worry about how things stand between them.

25(g). Who do you think ended the relationship? Do you think it was a mutual decision?
Barbara ended it, more or less as she described it in “A Touch of Curare.”

Mostly, my opinion here follows from interpretive methodology: Commissioner Babs’s is the only the testimony we get. Unless it can be undermined by other reflections, we have to take it as mostly true. I don’t have any evidence that contradicts it, and my interpretation doesn’t imply anything that would cast doubt upon her word. (If we take her at her word, though, it means that Bruce did not quickly regard the relationship as a mistake, and if he’s panicked by that phone call, he’s panicked he’s getting even more serious about Barbara than he suspected he could be.)

Only fan fiction can describe the scene that ends their relationship. Here’s such a scene for the romantics in the audience:

Barbara is seriously (nearly fatally) wounded in a hail of gunfire; she is so debilitated that she cannot return to her career as Batgirl. She and Bruce are still involved; she wants to share his life fully, as both a “life partner” (unofficial) and as a crime-fighting partner. (By being both, she gets to be both the “wife” and the “mistress.”) Because she values that full partnership so much, she cannot bring herself to share Bruce with “the Wife.” She doesn’t give him an ultimatum: “Me or the Cape, buster.” But she sees that he can’t give up the cape, and so, as she says, she gives him up entirely.

25(i). Do you believe Dick Grayson ever found out about the relationship between Barbara and Bruce? If so, do you think it was before, during, or after it occurred? How do you think that knowledge (if he had it) affected his relationship with Barbara and Bruce? Do you think the two of them cared what he thought?
Do you think Tim Drake can keep a secret? Dick knew, and almost immediately. And it would leave him pissed, pissed, pissed, pissed, pissed, and pissed. He wouldn’t even yell at them. He’d just cut ‘em off cold.

If Nightwing were still in Gotham, I doubt Barbara and Bruce would have pursued things. They would care what he thought. Which suggests to me that the “cold war” between Bruce and Dick had deepened so far that hooking up wouldn’t have damaged things further. Dick’s feelings had become irrelevant by that point.

25(j). Do you think the relationship between Bruce and Barbara was known to Jim Gordon?
What I’ve argued above says that Bruce and Barbara were quite open about it. And I don’t see Jim being happy about it. But neither do I see him raising a royal ruckus. Rather, I see him swallowing really hard and going to bed every night praying that it won’t end badly.

Again, possibly Bruce is unmanned in the telephone scene because he hasn’t anticipated Jim Gordon’s reaction.

27. Do you think that Bruce Wayne, psychologically, has a strong “seducer” streak in his personality? Do you think such an aspect of his personality could have played a part in whatever happened between him and Barbara?
I basically answered this above. I think he has such a streak. Whether it played a part in what happened between them is hard to know.

Extra Credit: Compose a short biographical note about Barbara Gordon that uses your answers above to sketch the course of her life as Batgirl and beyond, paying close attention to the nature and circumstances of her relationship with Bruce Wayne and its effect on her life.
Barbara Gordon had a sense of adventure and a taste for adventure that manifested itself (as she has a strong moral code) in fighting to protect her father and ultimately in becoming Batgirl. As Barbara, she felt a strong romantic attraction to her college-friend Dick Grayson; as Batgirl, she felt ambitious for something “better.” She and Bruce tried to forge a relationship inside and outside of work: Barbara sent the first signal, but Bruce deliberately picked up on it and carried it through. Barbara eventually had to quit as Batgirl. She would have preferred that Bruce quit as Batman at the same time, and was disappointed when he didn’t. The parting was embittered as each side recognized that they had expectations not shared by the other. Barbara also probably felt disillusioned, and probably also came to share some of Nightwings’ negative opinions about Batman. Her turn to law enforcement was both a belated reconciliation with her father’s preferred career and an attempt to still compete with Bruce as a crime-fighter: just as Nightwing still tried to compete with him.

Maxie Zeus

09-24-2006, 03:49 PM

Conclusion: Much of what I have written, and much of what anyone will write on this topic, whether they're as smart as Maxie and Alex or the opposite, will ultimately be little more than opinionated conjecture. We never actually saw Bruce and Barbara in love. We really have no direct evidence of what their relationship was like. As a result of this vacuum, some see Barbara as a conniving Bat-Yoko, while others see her as a woman who made an unwise but understandable and human choice.

Very wise words.

The constant I always return to is the Arthurian legend of the adulterous love between Lancelot and Guenevere, which ultimately destroyed a kingdom. Their love was also "wrong," but it made for a fantastic story. The problem with the Bruce/Barbara affiar is that it made for a fantastic explanation of Barbara's antagonism in Batman Beyond, but the actual story was never really shown. I suspect that their affair would be quite differently viewed if we had ever had a true glimpse at it, rather than a verbal account. Because then the story would have moved into the shape of an unfolding drama, with clearer actions and motivations, rather than simply consisting of a speech.

Spot on. Like Timm says, it's "wrong," but it's interesting because it's wrong. I barely give a rat's ass about what happened to Nightwing (I'm probably a minority of one), but I want to know what happened here.

Of course, a DTV that spelled it out would have to have lots of dramatic stuff in it, which probably means the actual circumstances of the affair would be a lot uglier than any we could justifiably infer from what we've been given.

Arsenal

09-24-2006, 04:42 PM

May I intercalate a related question? Why does no one hold Nightwing culpable for what happened between Bruce/Barbara/Dick?

Dick willfully rejected Barbara on multiple occasions throughout TNBA. You can only push a woman away so many times before she quits knockin'. Furthermore, we see an onscreen kiss between Dick and Selina Kyle during "You Scratch my Back."

That's right. Dick moves in on Selina long before Bruce and Barbara dated. What if Dick completely burnt his bridges and Bruce and Barbara got together out of spite?

Perhaps this sounds petty, but has anyone ever dated an ex's friend (or a friend's ex) out of spite? Maybe that is how Bruce and Barbara started. It certainly is possible, because everything we know about Bruce and Barbara is from a jaundiced source.

This relationship is mostly up to the interpretation of the viewer because so little is known regarding it. What we do know: they dated after Barbara and Dick, and it ended badly. Seriously, that's about it (particularly if you think Barbara might be giving a biased account of her relationships).

Alex Weitzman

09-24-2006, 04:52 PM

May I intercalate a related question? Why does no one hold Nightwing culpable for what happened between Bruce/Barbara/Dick?

Plenty of people do. For me, I recognize that Dick definitely made his disinterest known in Barbara in various episodes. But then, as TOM said, it's not exactly like he came back home to find things any better in terms of him and Barbara. She's gone even further into a world that he distinctly didn't want her getting involved with. Dick, had he let Barbara back into his life, would have been her "other man". And that's not what he wants at all. Barbara would have to have offered a far better deal to reconcile the rift between her and Dick.

Maxie Zeus

09-24-2006, 06:48 PM

May I intercalate a related question? Why does no one hold Nightwing culpable for what happened between Bruce/Barbara/Dick?

A topic like this (one organized around this kind of quiz) isn't meant to end discussion, but to start it. Once you have gotten in your own mind some sense of "what happened," you can start spiralling outward and making judgments about how others reacted and how culpable they were. So, by all means, talk about Nightwing!

Revelator

09-24-2006, 10:25 PM

First off, it will be difficult for us to debate whether Bruce was or was not interested in pursuing a relationship with Barbara because I consider Batwoman canon and you apparently do not.

Whoa there cowboy. I don't see why it's "apparent" that I don't consider Batwoman canon, especially because I do consider Batwoman canon. But it's a warped part of the canon, because almost no one in the film is quite in character. So there are inconsistencies and static. It's like the case of the Sherlock Holmes stories "The Yellow Face" and "The Free Gables." In ther former Holmes displays some very admirable racial attitudes--in the latter he makes racist comments that seem inexplicable in the light of the earlier story. Some have tried to explain this by postulating that Conan Doyle didn't write the story, but I don't accept that. I just accept that there are inconsistencies in the canon. A "canon" is not always consistent, especially when several writers are at work on it. Batgirl's character has been in the hands of at least half a dozen writers, and there's bound to be discrepancies between these writers' conception of her.

I will say this: obviously there's some interest on Bruce's part.

That's what I wished to hear. And as Maxie notes, if Bruce "wasn’t interested, he would have taken Barbara aside long before and told her to cut it out. If he was open to 'possibilities,' he wouldn’t have let things drift, either." This seems to me a far more nuanced picture than simply saying that Bruce just wasn't interested, as you originally wrote.

[QUOTE]As for Dick and Barbara's relationship: is it fair to analyze it just from the perspective of Old Wounds? Look at their interactions in things like Batgirl Returns and SubZero. They compliment each other's strong points and cut to the quick of each other's foibles.

But isn't that something Bruce and Barbara might have enjoyed, once she'd grown close to him? And is this all one would want in a mate? When I watch BR and SZ I don't see a couple for the ages. I see a couple that look suited for each other, but hardly a Tristan and Isolde.

The reason I come down harder on Barbara in this case is because her issue is, to me personally, less important. She also was more aware of Dick's problem than Dick was of hers, and still chose to not care about it.

She's not his therapist--it's not up to her to reconcile Dick and Bruce. Her issues may be less important to you, but we can hardly expect them to be less important to her. What she saw of Dick in "Old Wounds" would have soured him to me as well. I wouldn't want to psycho-nanny Dick either, especially when Bruce was being more reasonable. Dick's problems wouldn't be so great if he wasn't implicitly self-righteous about them. He strikes me as far more repellent than Barbara in the situation. Her interest in Dick dropped substantially when she realized her issues. I don't blame her for that. The prospect of working with someone who seemed far more mature and accomplished would have been understandably preferrable than leaving Bruce in the dust to stand by Dick's side.

James

09-25-2006, 06:51 AM

Some interesting replies, and I agree with quite a lot of what Relevator said. I thought I'd just speak on this final remark which I'm torn to agree with and somehow disagree with at the same time.

Conclusion: Much of what I have written, and much of what anyone will write on this topic, whether they're as smart as Maxie and Alex or the opposite, will ultimately be little more than opinionated conjecture. We never actually saw Bruce and Barbara in love. We really have no direct evidence of what their relationship was like. As a result of this vacuum, some see Barbara as a conniving Bat-Yoko, while others see her as a woman who made an unwise but understandable and human choice.

I do dislike when some fans convert speculation to fact. I do hate it when they imply that Bruce was bad because he went and took Dick's girlfriend from him when we have no factual information there to confirm that Dick was upset or cool with Bruce and Barbara. I dislike it when it's implied it would be secretative, underhand and without thought for Dick or Jim Gordon. Again we don't know. We don't know Jim didn't give it his blessing or Dick for that matter. Dick might have gone off with Starfire, he may have just cared so much for Bruce and Barb he endorsed the relationship even if he feel good about it. We don't know. Furthermore, we can't nail down Alfred and Tim's reactions in MOTB. Partially because they are played out for comic effect and in an action drama, comedy situations on their own don't really add any insight into the characters unless they have something to objectively compare them to. With the Barb scene being fairly singular, it makes it hard to distinguish how much is played for light hearted fun and how much is an accurate portrayal of Tim and Alfred's perspective on the whole Bruce/Barb ordeal. We can conject, but no more.

So I think a great deal of the "wrong" that FANS see, is based on their own elaboration beyond what we see.

That said, as with most cartoons, there is a great deal which needs to be taken on face value unless contradicted otherwise. Cartoons for kids are not a particularly deep medium, action ones especially where a great deal of the priority is on the fights. So I think a great deal can be taken on face value. I'd say that Bruce's yearning look of Barb on his two slides in Out of the Past validates he loved her at SOME point. We could say that retrospectively he loved her more than at the time; that MOTB paints the TRUE relationship but memory clouds the perception, but with so much of cartoons leaning towards face value, I'd say in the consistency of the medium we can take it he was in love with her - more so than the other girls being she was the last slide. You can argue other ways, but you can do that with all fiction being so malleable. I think it can be said in DCAC continuity, they were in love.

Barb's reaction in TOC backs this up somewhat, the way the scene is directed and the information she offer seems to imply it was a lot more than what we see in MOTB.

I guess what I'm saying, is that too often, if we over analyse the characters, we lose the simplicity of the medium. With Barb and Bruce, knowing so little actually makes the fact they had a relationship more fitting to that medium. We know they were in love at one point. We know it wasn't an easy ride. While it can't be proved 100%, it does seem more logical on the basis of the characters that we see and the hints we are offered, that Barb and Bruce got it on later than earlier. The fact that Batgirl and Batman were like "Ballet" as Barb flashes back in TOC over the issue of their intimacy and it doesn't subscribe to TNBA really. The fact that she pairs the two of them rather than bat family as a whole being like "ballet" would imply maybe a later date for her comments than TNBA. Yes, again she could be looking back idealistically and they weren't as "ballet" as she recalls, but again the medium to me demands taking the words and the vibe of the scene. So again, it would seem that Barb and Bruce were post what we see on TV and MOTB being TNBA/JLU was not the pinnacle.

My point is that beyond the fact they were in love - that their closeness brought an added dimension to their ability to work as Batman and Batgirl, the fact that at some point in their friendship Bruce couldn't deal with a relationship, the fact that they parted over the Bat to some extent and the fact that to some degree Barb feels she was pulled into the Batman's world we don't know much more. We don't know how it was percieved, how it started or precisely when. But I would say taking characters on face value and not trying to overanalyse, I think one can get a fair interpretation of the characters without the storylines. Missing the storylines help us recouncile this wrongness. We know Bruce is a moral man even if he is flawed. We know Barbara is a caring and honest character. We know that Dick is flawed but a good guy. I would think it's unlikely that on these "face values" there is any reason to see Barbara as a Bat-yoko or Bruce as a Bat-Jack Nicholson, that any story that bared out these slim facts would betray their characters in such a way.

So do we need to know? Well I'm with Jay I am more curious over Barbara and Bruce than I am about what happened to Nightwing. But overall, we know these characters, we know that while flawed, they are good people. We also know these basic facts which bring a rather unusual and "wrong" relationship. It shouldn't be too hard to recouncile these characters situation in our heads - as conjecture - without damaging their intergrity and having to presume that any did the dirty on the other. Such nastiness doesn't feel very DCAU. Not when Dick and Bruce - despite their issues are so close.

So in a sense I don't see Bruce and Barbara as "wrong" beyond the fact it ended as badly as one would expect it would (Bruce give up Batman, as if) and that it's "wrong" compared to DCAU canon. As far as the Bat-Family goes, I would like to think that the characters themselves show no real indication of any such majorly negative flaws to put a romance over family or the mission.

Sorry, the points a bit convoluted, I'm just bouncing ideas off a brick wall here. Yes, I agree with Rev's point that it does verge on conjecture so one can't be too damning/reasonable about Bruce and Barb. But without such information and on the basis of the characters we DO know, I would suggest any such pairing would occur in light of the character traits we see in the cartoons rather than an evolution that created a situation that was somewhat darker or more icky. For instance, that it would seem more likely that Bruce wouldn't "betray" Dick by entering a relationship without his understanding, nor would I think it would be a frivilous choice, baring in mind Bruce's concerns about working relationships (which COULD be backed up by his actions in MOTB). Innocent until proven guilty I guess. :)

Arsenal

09-25-2006, 08:12 AM

Original post by Revelator
Her interest in Dick dropped substantially when she realized her issues. I don't blame her for that.

I interpret her actions differently. I think her interest increased in Dick when he made the switch to Nightwing and became all angsty.

She is definitely the aggressor "You Scratch my Back" and "Chemistry." Both times Dick rebuffs her. Both of these episodes occur chronologically after the flashbacks in "Old Wounds."

This leads me to believe that Barbara is arguably a drama queen. She loves the thrill of a self-defeating relationship. She prefers the turmoil and excitement. (This would be consistent with prior characterization. Out of Bruce, Dick and herself, it is she who has lost the least; and it is she, arguably, who chose the vigilante life arbitrarily.)

Consequently, it would make sense that she rejected the notion of settling down with Dick. With Dick removed from the picture, she clings to Bruce--another certified thrill junkie. Together, they have a tempestuous relationship based on anger and excitement. But this time it is Barbara who wants more and it is Bruce who refuses to grow up. The result? Another bitter break-up.

I only have circumstantial evidence to support the drama queen theory, but I would point out that Sam and Barbara were fairly old when they were married. Is it possible that she is a recovering commitment-phobe?

James

09-25-2006, 01:07 PM

I interpret her actions differently. I think her interest increased in Dick when he made the switch to Nightwing and became all angsty.

I think we're all reading too much into it. :) It seems to me, if we take it at it's most simple, Barbara still had feelings for Dick. He left her, there was no recounclilation. She was still interested in Dick. Dick however...

She is definitely the aggressor "You Scratch my Back" and "Chemistry." Both times Dick rebuffs her. Both of these episodes occur chronologically after the flashbacks in "Old Wounds."

Absolutely and Dick - for whatever reason - couldn't/didn't want to commit. In the scenes it seemed he wasn't interested. Could be he resented her moving in on the team still, but there is no indication of such issues. It seemed as if he'd moved on, taking Bruce's type of quest priority.

This leads me to believe that Barbara is arguably a drama queen. She loves the thrill of a self-defeating relationship. She prefers the turmoil and excitement. (This would be consistent with prior characterization. Out of Bruce, Dick and herself, it is she who has lost the least; and it is she, arguably, who chose the vigilante life arbitrarily.)

Again, I don't see the logic in this. If she had split with Dick as Robin and she was "into" Dick as he returns as NW I'd agree.. but he left her. It seems natural she'd have a burning flame for him without having to redefine a fairly simple character into a drama queen.

I'm not saying you are wrong, as it is speculative. But, I think there simplest answer in regards to the cartoon is quite often the most accurate. I don't think the NW/Barb issue based on the evidence is indicative of any negative character traits. NW is a pretty messed up guy trying to redefine himself and is not interested in a relationship. Barbara clearly still has feelings for NW through TNBA, but is knocked back by the guy. Whether Dick has headed to Bludhaven (as in JLU) before MOTB is again speculative, but it seems that since he's established in Bludhaven in series 5 of JL/U it's possible he'd left Gotham prior to MOTB in season 2 of JL/U (which was earlier than I had always imagined). Again, conjecture, but it would seem to follow that Dick doesn't hang around Gotham too long after TNBA and that again might make any changes in Barbara's interest to Bruce a little less manipulative - simply because Dick's no longer there.

Consequently, it would make sense that she rejected the notion of settling down with Dick. With Dick removed from the picture, she clings to Bruce--another certified thrill junkie. Together, they have a tempestuous relationship based on anger and excitement. But this time it is Barbara who wants more and it is Bruce who refuses to grow up. The result? Another bitter break-up.

I only have circumstantial evidence to support the drama queen theory, but I would point out that Sam and Barbara were fairly old when they were married. Is it possible that she is a recovering commitment-phobe?[/QUOTE]

The Old Maid

10-09-2006, 04:11 PM

Such busy people! Almost as busy as I, given that I have reworked (and doubled) the original piece. Busiest of all: the webmasters, who will publish it when they can.

I have been quiet, but I have not been idle.

*ominous Batman voice in “Starcrossed”: “Wait for it …”

The Old Maid

10-09-2006, 04:22 PM

Toward the actual feedback threads, let us keep in mind that the animated Barbara previously had never been subjected to rigorous, methodical analysis.

(Toward the proposal that "T.O.M. has a special interest in the topic [of Bruce and Barbara], because T.O.M. has for a long time thought and written about the women in the Batman universe], I would reserve mild "chiding" for pleasantly wondering what happened to the 150+ pages I wrote about the guys. )

Toward the argument that the Timmverse Batman “is a cartoon, and cartoons are simple things,” keep in mind that: 1) animation can do any genre, including cartoons; and 2) such arguments repeatedly have been invoked to protect only one character. No one says “just a cartoon” when discussing 2009, or Cadmus, or Hawkgirl’s moral dilemmas, or Batman’s need to adopt children, or the symbolism of The Joker, or whether Batman holds the same iconic status as Sherlock Holmes.

The Timmverse continuity has demonstrated that it can stand up to serious scrutiny. If other characters can be subjected to rational and dispassionate examination, then surely the animated Barbara can take it too. Yet anyone who would evaluate the animated Barbara by the same standards as the other characters essentially has to run a gauntlet, a task most fans find more daunting than the actual work.

Through years of patient effort—has it really been years?—I’ve tried to examine the Barbara character with diligence, discipline, and objectivity. My techniques include, but were not limited to: documentation of canon evidence on the screen (dialogue, behavior, patterns, commentaries); psychology; ethics; logic theory; law; sociology; comments from the creative team; and the academic study of fiction as a genre.

Therefore, if my previous analysis measures up as incomplete or otherwise having fallen short of success, mine are the failings of a pioneer in the Unknown, and (I hope) of some value even so. In theory one can learn more from even the mistakes of an observer in the field than from a gaggle of hypothesizers at home.

…

There's too much ground to cover at one sitting, so I'll just touch on some of the new points.

In no particular order:

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

I'm reluctant to say more about [T.O.M.'s eschatological terminology], because one thing I learned in that two-year discussion was that I could never fully graps what T.O.M. meant by them. At best, I had the feeling that I was inadequately understanding a metaphor that T.O.M. understood only too well to adequately explain. At worst, I felt like the victim in a game of Fizzbin.

On the one hand, that's probably how Barbara's boyfriends felt. (See next point.) On the other hand, it's up to me to make myself adequately understood.

Don't worry. When you all see the reworked essay (coming soon to a screen near you), you won't have any trouble understanding me.

posted by numerous

bickering over whether “Batwoman” is canon; who thinks it is canon and who thinks that other people think it is not; whether it can be canon and yet be downplayed in favor of personal preference

I think people need to settle the debate over why they don’t consider “Sub-Zero” or the “Old Wounds” flashback (before the secrets were revealed) to be canon, before you tackle “Batwoman.” Both episodes make plain that Barbara was Dick’s for the asking. Dick was Barbara’s for the asking. Not only are the characters a mutually attracted couple, but they exhibit and indulge mutual interests outside of Work (dining out, dancing, vacationing together).

Oh, people say that they consider these episodes to be canon. But press them, and they declare that they don’t take such stories seriously. In fact they often suggest that we shouldn’t, either. Could it be because the Dick/Barbara relationship would pose a legitimate obstacle to a Bruce/Barbara affair? Certainly some viewers go to a lot of trouble to de-legitimize those canon references. It is very common for viewers who prefer Bruce/Barbara to say things to discredit the Dick/Barbara references … and, unfortunately, to sometimes discredit the viewers who point to those references.

Originally posted by Arsenal

We see an onscreen kiss between Dick and Selina Kyle in “You Scratch My Back.” That’s right. Dick moves in on Selina long before Bruce and Barbara dated.

I looked up and rewatched the episode. Although YSMB is a very studly episode for Nightwing—two women throwing themselves at him—he is not the aggressor here “moving in on” anyone. He brushes off Barbara four times and (literally) pries Selina’s hands off him three times. Although he let Catwoman roam the town to put the sting on her, he did not encourage her to feel him up. She did that on her own. She planted the kiss on him while she tried to sweet-talk him into letting her escape. Just thought we should “let the record show.”

Originally posted by Revelator

is not [Dick's] therapist.

She's not a good one, if that's what you mean. Look at her career again. She tries to diagnose and treat all four Batboys, the adult Tim being the only one who frankly asked her for it. But that doesn't stop her from attempting to reshape the other three. Relates to this one:

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Bagging Batman would be the second greatest triumph could realize. Seducing him into giving up his Wife (being Batman) would be the greatest. Getting him to switch into law enforcement or governance of some kind would allow her to think that the disappearance of Batman would be no great loss. And getting him to take over her father’s old office would be, in some sense, to let her combine the two loves of her life.

That’s a lot like saying that Barbara thinks that it honestly never occurred to Bruce to become a policeman—maybe they don’t have such an outlandish invention where he comes from?—and that if only someone suggested it—oh, like Janet Van Dorn—and he tried it, he would like it. This isn’t (or shouldn’t be) like trying to tempt a stubborn toddler into trying a new food because “you might like it.” Maybe the first year, when Barbara didn’t know who was who, what was what, and why was why, she could ask such innocent/naïve questions. By the time of the affair, quite a few years later, she ought to know this is an untenable point of view.

Setting aside the fact that, well, she’s not Bruce’s therapist, Bruce is a disturbed man in his own right. The police academy probably would reject such an individual. He can’t sit in Jim Gordon’s chair if no one will hire him.

Besides, Bruce has an overpowering revulsion to guns, and so could not do the work of a policeman. This may be just as well. (Would you want a man like that “forcing” himself to use guns?) Any attempt Barbara might make to push Bruce in the direction of a police job might make him worse.

Terry McGinnis (“Out of the Past”) gave a much more accurate assessment: even in his eighties, Bruce still aches to suit up, and not in a police uniform.

Revelator:

What she saw of Dick in "Old Wounds" would have soured him to me as well. I wouldn't want to psycho-nanny Dick either, especially when Bruce was being more reasonable.

Closer to the mark, but still a bit off. Bruce was calmer (or cooler), but his actions are not, in fact, mature or reasonable. Comparisons are odious, but probably inevitable. We know Max is smart and tough, but Terry tries to shut her out of the Spellbinder and Curare cases because he knows Max's game is simply not up to that level. Terry prefers to risk only his own life rather than to risk killing the rookie. (On the grounds that there's no series if Terry/Bruce dies, the rookie does go and conveniently "saves the day." Happened in “Sins of the Father,” too. There’s an awful lot of “beginner’s luck” in the series.)

Bruce taking a rookie to guard his back is not a good look on him. He does have cop friends, after all. Also, it escalated the situation with Dick, who isn't out of line to be frantic for his girlfriend’s safety. Any thorough analysis of "Old Wounds" must include Robin's professional opinion that Batgirl lacks the training to face the danger into which Bruce/Batman has put her. By the same coin, any thorough analysis of the episode must take note that Barbara has, instantly and inexplicably, decided that her boyfriend—now revealed to be Robin, a ten-year veteran in the war on crime—is a silly, high-strung manchild who doesn't know what he’s talking about. Why? Because he lost his temper? Or is it because he told her something she did not want to hear? (Certainly a lot of fans follow her example.)

Yes, the screaming is off-putting, if not downright creepy, and actually Barbara shouldn’t feel compelled to marry a man with that kind of temper. But I would submit that every one of Dick’s protests would have been taken seriously if they came from a soft-spoken character whom Barbara and/or the audience genuinely respected (such as Alfred, Leslie, Bruce’s sensei, or Jim).

Revelator (quoting MZ):

As Maxie notes, if Bruce “wasn’t interested, he would have taken Barbara aside long before and told her to cut it out. If he was open to ‘possibilities,’ he wouldn’t have let things drift, either.”

While possible, it doesn’t really line up with the precedent of Bruce’s character. He can never “get over” the tragedy of his parents’ death, but he expects others to “get over it” on a regular basis. In JL/JLU he often does this with Superman. Bruce also has a history of doing this with the kiddies. Indications are that he didn’t do more to address his failing relationship with Grayson because he thought (or hoped) the moody little bird would grow out of it. Bruce definitely farmed out the wounded Tim to Leslie. Proposed reasons have ranged from, “Couldn’t deal with it” to “thought the kid would be more able to put it behind him this way.” Old Man Wayne does very little to smooth things over with Terry; it’s usually Terry who comes crawling back. The one time Bruce/Batman tries to discourage an interested woman (namely Diana in “This Little Piggy”), he doesn’t have the guts to tell her to cut it out. He just hopes she will let it go, so that he won’t have to be the bad guy.

It’s far more in character to conclude that Bruce figured Barbara would just “walk it off” or “grow out of it” like any other angst that’s not as supremely important as his.

Originally posted by SJJames

I do dislike it when fans convert speculation to fact. I do hate it when they imply that Bruce was bad because he went and took Dick’s girlfriend from him when we have no factual information there to confirm that Dick was upset or cool with Bruce and Barbara. I dislike it when it’s implied it would be secretive, underhand, and without thought for Dick or Jim Gordon. Again, we don’t know. We don’t know Jim didn’t give his blessing or Dick for that matter. Dick might have gone off with Starfire, he may have just cared so much for Bruce and Barb he endorsed the relationship even if he [didn’t] feel good about it.

That’s an awfully big river you’re swimming against. We may not have a significant body of evidence as to everyone’s position, but we have a lot more than zero.

Item: Jim Gordon endorsed Dick Grayson in “Sub-Zero.” It’s not up to fans who saw this episode to swallow an arbitrary fan-originated proposal that Jim would reverse his position. It’s up to fans who seek Jim Gordon’s blessing to defend their belief that Jim’s documented position was, should be, or could be reversed. Then it’s up to them to explain why this off-screen “evidence” should trump canon on-screen evidence.

Item: Grayson has no less than three complaints against Bruce and/or Barbara in “Old Wounds.” One involves the fight with Connor. Two is that, when Bruce prevaricates that it was not his “place” to reveal Batgirl’s identity, Robin challenges “But it WAS your place to put her in danger?” Three is that, when Batgirl protests that she knows what she is doing, she “volunteered,” Robin replies, “You THINK you [volunteered]. You don’t know him like I do. He manipulates, pulls strings—anything, to get what he wants.”

(By the way, anyone who disputes Robin’s assessment of Barbara’s vulnerability and Bruce’s opportunism would have to explain why the same statements become credible when Barbara herself endorses them vis-à-vis Terry McGinnis years later.)

These disparate complaints have a common theme: Robin thinks Batman is crossing moral lines; that Batman will continue to do so; and that Batgirl/Barbara is too blinded by hero worship to see any of this. There is strong evidence that Robin thinks that Barbara should quit, and possibly Bruce. In “Old Wounds” Dick was not okay with Barbara, or possibly Bruce, swinging on a Bat-line at all. To propose that Grayson conveniently would be okay with them turning into Bat-swingers strikes me as magical thinking. Again, if you feel that Dick Grayson could be neutral on the subject of the Bruce/Barbara affair—let alone give his blessing—if you would propose a development that denies the plot patterns, interpersonal dynamics, and thematic precedent set up by evidence from the screen—then the burden of proof is on you to produce evidence that supports that feeling.

Now if these are merely wishes, personal preferences, feel free to prefer away! But please call it wishes and preference and not precedent.

Item: The creative team went on record as stating that the affair was “wrong.” The creative team themselves did not say anything that could be construed to support the proposal that “it was only ‘wrong’ in the sense that it ended badly,” as you seem to state. The creative team stated very clearly that they first paired off Barbara with Dick then switched her to Bruce, and that this switch was what made the fans use the word “wrong.” The creative team then confirmed that this was the correct usage of the word “wrong,” i.e. that was the effect they were going for.

…

Finally, a few thoughts on the new questions:

#27. Is Bruce a seducer? Yes and no. The Timmverse version of Bruce/Batman really only pursues the woman slightly less than half the time. (And for that matter, he really is the aggressor most often in his dreams.) Someone, Revelator I think, wisely commented that the one woman Bruce aggressively pursued in the waking world was also the best-written one, namely Andrea. Probably what most implicates Bruce/Batman as a “seducer” is that he doesn’t do enough to distance himself from women with whom he has no future.

This actually is part of Batman’s personality that makes sense. He lost his sense of security as a child, skipped most of the dating years—the “high school girlfriend” Zatanna and the “undergrad girlfriend” Andrea being the notable exceptions—and so probably wouldn’t know how to begin an adult relationship … or end one either, apparently. (Let’s keep in mind that the civilians in the rest of the world don’t necessarily find relationships any easier.) Also, Bruce has extensively studied the minds/psyches of bad guys, but not necessarily the minds/psyches of fellow good guys or normal people. (Consider that Batman fell in “Tower of Babel” because he researched his allies as if they were enemies.)

Very possibly, Bruce/Batman may know what he likes when he sees it—but he probably couldn’t explain (either with eloquence or heartfelt simplicity) why, exactly, he likes it. Kind of like the anti-porn Justice: “I can’t describe it, but I know it when I see it.”

24. Do you believe it is possible for two people to be in “puppy love” even when they are old enough to form mature relationships? Explain.

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

I do think it’s possible. Once you reach a certain age, your ability to form serious relationships is less a matter of maturity than a matter of attitude. By the time of TNBA I think Barbara was old enough to be responsible for how she treated Dick and Bruce. But that doesn’t mean that she [B][B]would act responsibly. I’m not convinced she ever took Dick as seriously as she took Bruce. The prospect of bagging Batman (and then discovering that bagging Batman also means bagging billionaire Bruce Wayne) could concentrate the mind powerfully. Originally, Dick was just a peer, a guy she knew in college. And Barbara was powerfully ambitious even back then. It would be very easy for her to take him seriously only as a transition figure—a boy toy.

(In fact, I’ve known women who had—who had for several years—boyfriends who were tremendously good catches, and who ultimately alienated those boyfriends because they were too concentrated on their ambitions and who actually thought that those boyfriends weren’t good enough for them. Basically, these were women who thought they were destined for star jobs in the business or government worlds, and who thought their boyfriends were good enough as college-age sexual toys, but who would never be good enough as a trophy husband. They were, by the way, very, very wrong.)

Interesting approach. Stops just short of calling Barbara a flat-out gold-digger.

Okay. If money was/is an issue, well, Barbara already had aimed pretty high. Dick told her he was independently wealthy. The comics take this one step farther by stating that Bruce Wayne hired Lucius Fox to manage Grayson’s inheritance. Thus in the comics Grayson/Nightwing is a millionaire. The animated Dick Grayson isn’t quite that far along yet, but he buys a substantial amount of property for his TNBA lair, so he’s still wealthy enough.

In theory there is one last upper crust above Dick. But most of the people we meet in the Timmverse are ineligible: Grant Walker, Ferris Boyle, Rupert Thorne, Roland Daggett (bad guys!), and Veronica Vreeland and Bruce. (Maybe Penguin.) Of course a casual visit to the realm of the super-rich often reveals super-problems.

For example, don’t we hear about new wives and old adult stepchildren? How many times do the kids take the stepmother to court to get “their” money? If Barbara was a gold-digger—and as smart as we think she is—she has taken the wiser course of action. If she could land Dick Grayson, she could have his wealth, then inherit Bruce “Daddy Warbucks” Wayne’s money through Grayson. But Grayson has one fatal flaw: he’s not very fascinating. He’s a Nice Boy, and sometimes the prospect of “a life of boredom” drowns out that hideous statement, “It’s just as easy to fall in love with a rich boy as a poor one, dearie.” In the same vein, the Hideous Statement (see previous sentence) sometimes drowns out the fact that the man is NOT a Nice Boy.

When people hear the myth of Cinderella, they assume that the poor bride and her wealthy groom are persons of good character. They rarely wondered why Prince Charming was still single. In the real world, likes tend to marry likes. When a real Prince Charming married a commoner, sometimes there was a problematic reason for the imbalance. For example, if the women of his own class were not with him, they may have known what they were doing. This left an opening for a woman of more modest means to marry into the upper crust. All she had to do is accept a man who may exhibit traits she would not have tolerated if the man had been poor (gambling, cheating, some situation in his head, and so on). Certainly true love can happen; it can cross economic lines. But usually people choose marriage partners from the circle of people with whom they already spend most of their time.

Barbara has found a way to cross economic lines, but is that her plan? It goes back to the idea that she may have dreamed about Batman, but Grayson offered her public wealth and status she would not have to hide or apologize for. And while Batman represented to her mystery, glamour, and power, remember that part of it is shading from her own desires and expectations. (In one scene of “Batman Beyond,” some garbagemen thought Batman was dumpster-diving, possibly homeless.)

When Barbara learns that her fantasy man also is a single billionaire she already knows, she certainly finds the civilian much more attractive. Is it mere money? Or to put it another way, would she still be interested in Batman if he was homeless? It’s a valid question because she was largely oblivious to Bruce Wayne the billionaire before she learned his identity. Why? Because Bruce Wayne the civilian is boring.

There may be a relation between that problem and this one:

Arsenal:

I think interest increased in Dick when he made the switch to Nightwing and became all angst-y.

She is definitely the aggressor in “You Scratch My Back” and “Chemistry.” Both times Dick rebuffs her. Both of these episodesoccur chronologically after the flashbacks in "Old Wounds."

This leads me to believe that Barbara is arguably a drama queen. She loves the thrill of a self-defeating relationship. She prefers the turmoil and excitement. (This would be consistent with prior characterization. Out of Bruce, Dick and herself, it is she who has lost the least; and it is she, arguably, who chose the vigilante life arbitrarily.)

Consequently, it would make sense that she rejected the notion of settling down with Dick. With Dick removed from the picture, she clings to Bruce--another certified thrill junkie. Together, they have a tempestuous relationship based on anger and excitement. But this time it is Barbara who wants more and it is Bruce who refuses to grow up. The result? Another bitter break-up.

On the one hand, there’s much to argue that Barbara’s initial relationship with Dick would not have qualified as a self-defeating relationship. She seemed happy.

On the other hand, when she saw that Dick was having problems at home, she became more active, trying to solve that problem. She didn’t seem happy with the turmoil and excitement then.

On a third hand (well, someone else’s hand), yes, Barbara is much more interested in Dick when: 1) he becomes Nightwing and she finally gets it how screwed up he’s become; and 2) she can’t have him. He’s going for the “bad boy” vibe. But is it his drama that attracts her, her drama that does it, or the fact that she can’t have him? And how much does one contribute to the other?

On a fourth hand (someone’s other hand), we don’t see the Bruce/Barbara relationship, and so have no way to know that what turmoil/excitement they may have had. When Bruce isn’t working or putting in face time at his day job, he’s asleep. He could very well be deadly dull in relationships. (We would have more information if Bruce could have made his onscreen relationships work for more than a few weeks.)

But as a policeman’s daughter, Barbara ought to know that crime-fighting is rarely glamorous. It’s often wearying, soul-crushing, boring, painful, and ugly. In that sense it is Bruce/Batman who is the grown-up … or at least, he’s less immature about the nature of the job. If Barbara became Batgirl and ultimately Batman’s girlfriend because she thought it might be fun, oh, is she in for a shock.

Interestingly, this dovetails with Alex Weitzman’s comment that Barbara/Batgirl continued to drink deeply of Catwoman’s flattery, until Catwoman ruined it by making an ugly remark about Barbara’s father. Catwoman doesn’t merely seduce with sexuality, but with the promise of thrills, glamour, and a life in some rarified realm above mortal toil and law. (Oh, and wealth, too.) Barbara is indeed vulnerable to some sort of greed; she does exhibit some sense of entitlement.

Interesting tidbit: Based on the size of her house (see “Splicers”), Commissioner Barbara did grow up to be rich.

#8. [B]Who is Alfred to [the Batboys already explored] and to Barbara?

Barbara, eh? That’s a new one. Technically, they aren’t anything to each other. Aside from a few seconds in “Old Wounds” and “Over the Edge,” were Alfred and Barbara even in the same room? With so many sidekicks, Batman hardly needed Alfred as someone to share the research or to bounce ideas off of him. Batgirl did a lot of that. But there is an assertion in fandom that separating Bruce from his “wisemen” contributed to his moral decline. Also consider: in the Timmverse, has Alfred ever been wrong? Probably about Andrea, and perhaps he should have fought the introduction of underage sidekicks. For the most part Alfred served as a conscience, a role that Barbara never really filled. (In “Old Wounds,” when Grayson/Robin tried to appeal to conscience, he was shot down by the new Bat-team, ridiculed by the fans, and ultimately pushed to the fringes of the Bat-universe by the creative team.)

#25g-h. Who do you think ended the relationship? Was it a mutual decision? If the decision was 1) mutual or 2) forced by Bruce, how do you interpret Commissioner Gordon’s claim that she ended it?

There’s definitely some denial here, but we can’t be certain if involved just one person or more than one. The forensic-evidence fact that Batgirl was carried out (i.e. shot) and merely never came back for her uniform trumps a spin statement that Batgirl boldly walked out. But how did this play in Barbara’s mind? Did Barbara, separately from Batgirl, walk out?

Based on their documented behavior in previous (onscreen, canon) relationships, it’s possible that Bruce/Batman froze her out at about the time she became aware of how vulnerable and expendable she really was. Nothing so verbal on his part as “Get the out of my house!”, combined with her talking it to death. (Although, based on her personality, we can be pretty sure she got the last word. Bruce was never much for all that “Fine.” “Fine!” “Good.” “Good!” “Stop copying me.” “Stop copying me!” In deeds, absolutely; and in words, it’s Barbara. In fact, “ATOC” suggests they’re both still doing it.)

#[B]9-12. Is Barbara Gordon’s life as seen in “Batman Beyond” the best life she could reasonably hope for? If not, what would that be? Would she recognize it as such? Would she have agreed with your choices?

Should it be significant that, in none of these questions (with their 25 options!), Sam Young never gets a mention?

A lot of interconnected questions, but they boil down to two very simple truths:

One. If the secret never had been revealed, Barbara could have married Dick. He was looking for a new life in “retirement” anyway, and would have been a more viable candidate than Bruce in Maxie Zeus’ scenario of Barbara’s husband taking over her father’s old office. (Again, Terry stated that Bruce still wanted to come out of Bat-retirement.) There definitely is some truth to the proposal that, if Barbara had never learned Batman’s identity or officially joined the team, she could have grown old describing her feelings for Batman as “puppy love.”

Dick and Barbara’s marriage would not necessarily be easy. Barb would have to grow and mature enough to let go of her fantasy. Also, Barb and Dick’s marriage would have had some particularly rough early years as Dick “detoxed” from his Bat-life. Granted, the marriage might not have survived either process. But if it had, and if the capes had never revealed themselves to each other, they had a chance of growing old together.

Two. Once the secret was out, Barbara’s life with Sam is the best one she could reasonably hope for, although part of her will always be in denial about it. Barbara genuinely craves the excitement and recognition that comes with her very-public job. Barbara genuinely needs the checks-and-balances that a public job imposes upon her. Barbara (probably) is better at her job when she does not feel the need to impress someone … and at that, her husband is neither dismissive of her nor excessively impressed with her. Finally, Barbara genuinely may never understand why she couldn’t have had both Dick and Bruce. Her attitude toward both men (not to mention her displaced anger against Terry) suggests she still hauls a lot of emotional baggage. So it’s best that she ends up in a relationship with no baggage … because we’ve seen that Barbara tends to overpack.

Maxie Zeus

10-09-2006, 08:14 PM

Good stuff as always, but I’ll restrict my reply (for the moment) to stuff aimed at me:

(Toward the proposal that "T.O.M. has a special interest in the topic [of Bruce and Barbara], because T.O.M. has for a long time thought and written about the women in the Batman universe], I would reserve mild "chiding" for pleasantly wondering what happened to the 150+ pages I wrote about the guys. )

Well, I didn’t mean to imply that you’d paid no attention to the guys. But you’re almost alone in treating the women seriously. That’s all I meant, and I meant it as praise. :sweat:

Bagging Batman would be the second greatest triumph [Barbara] could realize. Seducing him into giving up his Wife (being Batman) would be the greatest. Getting him to switch into law enforcement or governance of some kind would allow her to think that the disappearance of Batman would be no great loss. And getting him to take over her father’s old office would be, in some sense, to let her combine the two loves of her life.

That’s a lot like saying that Barbara thinks that it honestly never occurred to Bruce to become a policeman—maybe they don’t have such an outlandish invention where he comes from?—and that if only someone suggested it—oh, like Janet Van Dorn—and he tried it, he would like it. This isn’t (or shouldn’t be) like trying to tempt a stubborn toddler into trying a new food because “you might like it.” Maybe the first year, when Barbara didn’t know who was who, what was what, and why was why, she could ask such innocent/naïve questions. By the time of the affair, quite a few years later, she ought to know this is an untenable point of view.

Remember, what I said was in answer to a specific question: What life would Barbara have preferred see come to pass? She doesn’t have to think that any of this fantasy could realistically have happened. It was purely my guess as to what a “perfect” (if unrealistic) life would have seemed to her. The point was to get at her basic desires, not her plans or intentions.

So: Is it likely she could have had this life? No, not at all. Is it likely she thought she could have it? I doubt it. (But don’t forget “Chemistry,” where she thinks Bruce is serious about giving up the Bat-life and pointedly tells Dick that she thinks people can change.) But is the life she would have been happiest with? I think that she thinks it would have been.

As Maxie notes, if Bruce “wasn’t interested, he would have taken Barbara aside long before and told her to cut it out. If he was open to ‘possibilities,’ he wouldn’t have let things drift, either.”

While possible, it doesn’t really line up with the precedent of Bruce’s character. He can never “get over” the tragedy of his parents’ death, but he expects others to “get over it” on a regular basis. In JL/JLU he often does this with Superman. Bruce also has a history of doing this with the kiddies. Indications are that he didn’t do more to address his failing relationship with Grayson because he thought (or hoped) the moody little bird would grow out of it. Bruce definitely farmed out the wounded Tim to Leslie. Proposed reasons have ranged from, “Couldn’t deal with it” to “thought the kid would be more able to put it behind him this way.” Old Man Wayne does very little to smooth things over with Terry; it’s usually Terry who comes crawling back. The one time Bruce/Batman tries to discourage an interested woman (namely Diana in “This Little Piggy”), he doesn’t have the guts to tell her to cut it out. He just hopes she will let it go, so that he won’t have to be the bad guy.

It’s far more in character to conclude that Bruce figured Barbara would just “walk it off” or “grow out of it” like any other angst that’s not as supremely important as his.

That’s an excellent point. But let me give my full quote so as to emphasize the context in which I said what I said:

But just because “love is in the air” Mystery of the Batwoman] doesn’t mean that something is, has, or is about to happen between them [Barbara and Bruce]. It could just be that Barbara has been extremely unsubtle about sending signals; in effect, she’s been pinning “Love Is …” cartoons to the Bat computer, carving “BW + BG” into the Batcave walls, and scribbling “Mrs. Barbara Gordon” on her Trapper Keeper. It’s not a good look for her, and it would explain why Bruce is so uncomfortable, and why Tim and Alfred seem rather overtly contemptuous. But I have a hard time believing that this is what’s going on. Bruce is too much the professional. If he wasn’t interested, he would have taken Barbara aside long before and told her to cut it out. If he was open to “possibilities,” he wouldn’t have let things drift, either.

If you think Bruce is letting things drift, then you probably have to conclude that Barbara is mooning around like a teenager. And it seems to me that if you believe this, then you must draw negative conclusions about lots of people: Barbara for acting this way, Bruce for letting it go on, and Tim and Alfred for being openly snarky about it. It’s not an absurd conclusion to draw. But I think my conclusion more charitable: something's going on, not everyone is comfortable or happy about it, and the blame can be spread around quite evenly.

The Old Maid on “puppy love”:

Interesting approach. Stops just short of calling Barbara a flat-out gold-digger.

Well, I didn’t intend my remarks to lean in this direction: they were less about Barbara’s attitude toward Bruce and more about her attitude toward Dick. But mea culpa.

Commissioner Barbara dismissed the Babs-Dick relationship as “puppy love.” You wondered how that could be possible: If she was too young to be mature with Dick, why was she old enough to be mature with Bruce? And if she was capable of being mature with Bruce, why could her relationship with Dick only be “puppy love”?

My point was that this is not a matter of age or maturity (though maturity is part of it), but of attitude. College-age guys are infamous for contemptuously treating (when they want) their female peers as a kind of entertainment center. But the gals can do the same thing: I’ve seen it done. I see no internal contradiction in the suggestion that ambitious Barbara thought Dick Grayson a lot of fun but ultimately beneath her while seeing Batman/Bruce (once the secret was out) as someone worth seriously pursuing. Not even Commissioner Babs would dismiss Grayson as her one-time “boy toy,” but she could dismiss that relationship as basically unserious with the phrase “puppy love.”

That doesn’t imply that she was a “gold digger” for chasing Bruce. Batman/Bruce has a lot of advantages, and you don’t have to be primarily attracted to $$$ or power to see that a gal like Barbara would find him worth chasing.

Of course, your observation that maybe Prince Charming is still single for a reason is a good one. But the generalization that so many people assume the eligible types are flawless applies as well to Barbara.

Is Bruce a seducer? Yes and no. The Timmverse version of Bruce/Batman really only pursues the woman slightly less than half the time. (And for that matter, he really is the aggressor most often in his dreams.) Someone, Revelator I think, wisely commented that the one woman Bruce aggressively pursued in the waking world was also the best-written one, namely Andrea. Probably what most implicates Bruce/Batman as a “seducer” is that he doesn’t do enough to distance himself from women with whom he has no future.

This actually is part of Batman’s personality that makes sense. He lost his sense of security as a child, skipped most of the dating years—the “high school girlfriend” Zatanna and the “undergrad girlfriend” Andrea being the notable exceptions—and so probably wouldn’t know how to begin an adult relationship … or end one either, apparently. (Let’s keep in mind that the civilians in the rest of the world don’t necessarily find relationships any easier.)

Well, again, to paraphrase Mark Twain on infant baptism: Do I believe a guy can be romantically inexperienced and still be a seducer? “Believe in it? I’ve seen it done!”

It would take us off-topic to describe in any detail how it works. Suffice it to say that a guy can be charming—charismatic, attractive, and deeply attentive—without realizing that’s what he’s being. And it’s only a short step from being charming to being obliviously seductive. I’ve seen guys twist women into soft pretzels without knowing that’s what they were doing. I’ve even seen these guys collapse in shock and mortification when called on their behavior.

“Romance” need not enter it. There’s a famous story about the time a male movie star went to MGM boss Louis B. Mayer to ask for a raise. When he came out of LB’s office a friend asked, “Did you get more money?” “No, but I gained a father,” the bemused star replied. Politicians are famous for having this knack: Clinton, Reagan, Kennedy, Roosevelt, McKinley were presidents known as “seducers,” and not only (or even primarily, in the case of Reagan and McKinley) in the romantic sense. They had the ability to turn on the “high beams” and make the object of their attention feel like the most important person in the world.

It seems to me perfectly possible for someone to have this talent and be emotionally crippled and/or oblivious to the effect he has on the opposite sex. Bruce Wayne strikes me as the sort of person of whom this can be said.

James

10-09-2006, 08:17 PM

That’s an awfully big river you’re swimming against. We may not have a significant body of evidence as to everyone’s position, but we have a lot more than zero.

Well I'm talking about evidence beyond the conjective and I readily admit that a good deal of my "suggestions" in regards to conclusions are entirely subjective based on "dot-joining". I would say, however, there are virtually no strands to the "evidence" found in the show; we can find "facts" but so little to link these "facts" into any descent sized web.

Item: Jim Gordon endorsed Dick Grayson in “Sub-Zero.” It’s not up to fans who saw this episode to swallow an arbitrary fan-originated proposal that Jim would reverse his position. It’s up to fans who seek Jim Gordon’s blessing to defend their belief that Jim’s documented position was, should be, or could be reversed. Then it’s up to them to explain why this off-screen “evidence” should trump canon on-screen evidence.

Jim Gordon did indeed endorse Dick in Sub Zero. And I do appreciate your point; that a point of "evidence" was made in the show and to offer any suggestion that could modify that angle with no other point of "fact" (to make a strand in a web) is a slap in the face of the medium's simplicity. Cartoons lack time and space to be particularly deep. What we are told is - 90% of the time - what is "fact". To over analyse can defeat the medium of the animated universe.

That said, I think your point is as flimsy as the counterpoint you argue against. Yes, fans who feel Jim's blessing may have changed, have little to explain a change should have a hard time defining HOW or WHY it could have changed - there is no canon evidence to support it. HOWEVER, there is NO evidence to support it would sustain. We are talking about a long period between Sub Zero and anything around or beyond Mystery of the Batwoman. While cartoons are a simple medium, DCAU shows evidence of character evolution. I don't agree we should over analyse a simple scene, but I do not thing it's any more rational to presume we can dictate the actions of one character, based on a choice they made several years previous when all characters were in a different place on the board.

Which was my point. There is no evidence to link a strand period being the dynamics have had so many years to alter. Dick has changed. Barbara has changed. Jim's position MAY have arguably changed (depending on how you read Over the Edge and whether you feel it offers evidence that Jim knows more about Batman than he did in Sub Zero). There are too many factors that have altered post Sub Zero to give a definitive idea either way with Jim Gordon. To suggest his one comment made before Dick moved away, before he may/may not have come closer to the truth of Batman, before Barbara began working for Bruce and maturing into an adult, before Dick had come back as a different person who had no interest in Barbara, seems to me, as flimsy as those who would try and convince us there is evidence to the contrary.

Item: Grayson has no less than three complaints against Bruce and/or Barbara in “Old Wounds.” One involves the fight with Connor. Two is that, when Bruce prevaricates that it was not his “place” to reveal Batgirl’s identity, Robin challenges “But it WAS your place to put her in danger?” Three is that, when Batgirl protests that she knows what she is doing, she “volunteered,” Robin replies, “You THINK you [volunteered]. You don’t know him like I do. He manipulates, pulls strings—anything, to get what he wants.”

If this was an ordinary character, and this was the character trait of the singular character - such as Eric the Cavalier is cowardly and grumbly in Dungeons and Dragons - I would agree. However Dick is a character which has evolved in the universe he is present. I don't believe he can be definitively catalogued by his reactions in the heat of a moment, maybe years prior to any Barbara/Bruce event. If we see he evolves between BTAS and TNBA, it seems unfair to presume that any issues from one stage of that evolution will define any future choices.

That's the problem with the whole subject, thanks to BTAS.TNBA.JL.BB, we have a history. And in this history we see change. We know change occurs. I believe the medium requires us to take the "evidence" on face value, but I don't believe we have enough evidence to confirm the actions in between the facts we have. The characters evolve and that means the dynamics are uncertain.

(By the way, anyone who disputes Robin’s assessment of Barbara’s vulnerability and Bruce’s opportunism would have to explain why the same statements become credible when Barbara herself endorses them vis-à-vis Terry McGinnis years later.)

I would say there is a quite a clear directatorial one. It seems fairly clear when Bruce does tell Barbara - and this is the beautiful tragedy the episode creates - he is doing it because he feels it's in Dick's interest; that it's his failure to be able to deal with his role beyond the mask that sparks Dick's anger that takes him away from Gotham. Dick never see's the scene in which Bruce confronts Barbara and his version does not ally with what the audience sees. There is no evidence Bruce is being manipulative and I think that is the beautiful tragedy of the episode itself; Dick works on false presumptions based on the Batman rather than Bruce Wayne.

These disparate complaints have a common theme: Robin thinks Batman is crossing moral lines; that Batman will continue to do so; and that Batgirl/Barbara is too blinded by hero worship to see any of this. There is strong evidence that Robin thinks that Barbara should quit, and possibly Bruce. In “Old Wounds” Dick was not okay with Barbara, or possibly Bruce, swinging on a Bat-line at all. To propose that Grayson conveniently would be okay with them turning into Bat-swingers strikes me as magical thinking.

I would agree if I felt TNBA really showed any definitive consistency that he was still as angry as he was in Old Wounds. He works with Bruce and Barbara - something I doubt he imagined doing at all in "Old Wounds". He works with Tim - his replacement. It would seem that there was progression from his anger in "Old Wounds". This does not imply in any way that they got friendly, or that he would give his eventual blessing to Bruce and Barb. My point is there is really not enough either way to define how they will all act, beyond the fact that we know none of the characters are malicious.

We don't see Bruce being as manipulative with his "family" as Dick suggests. Dick's attacks in Old Wounds don't bear to the truth we see in the scene itself. Ergo, I would suggest that the consistency of characters would make it unlikely that a scenerio would occur that was malicious - that Barbara and Bruce would put their own relationship above Dick. Bruce speaks out against working relationships in JLU. He is clearly uncomfortable with the scenario in MOTB, yet there was definitively love from his reaction in OTTP and how Barbara defines her affections for Dick being somewhat less than Bruce.

I'm not joining the dots up here. I'm not saying it wouldn't go the way you suggest. I'm just saying I don't think there is evidence in the characters and universe that compells the characters do a situation in which the hero and heroine betray their long term heroic partner for their own selfish whims. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a scenario fans sit upon that ignores the consistency and intergrity of the characters and their universe in favour of their ideology and excessive analysis.

[COLOR=white]Now if these are merely wishes, personal preferences, feel free to prefer away! But please call it wishes and preference and not precedent.

A little insulting bearing in mind my point was that there is no evidence to define them as manipulative or otherwise beyond the individual facts. My point (for those who I've bored by now) is this:

DCAU is dynamic, however the characters remain heroic to their core. While we have some "facts" to take on their word, the history of DCAU evolves to a point in which it makes "linking" these facts beyond reason doubt impossible.

A great deal of fans look for a malicious edge to the Barbara and Bruce relationship in regards to Dick, my point is that these are essentially good characters and there is no evidence to presume any catalyst would necessarily be a bad one from any of the characters, merely a bad event in itself with the gift of retrospect, simply as it could never work (based on the comments made by Barbara in ToC).

There is no preference there. I've explained my subjective ideas previously - and labelled them as such. Beyond that, I would say there is no way to define how the events went. I'm just saying that I see no reason why the events have to be malicious in terms of characters - a view which seems more POPULAR than it needs to be.

Item: The creative team went on record as stating that the affair was “wrong.” The creative team themselves did not say anything that could be construed to support the proposal that “it was only ‘wrong’ in the sense that it ended badly,” as you seem to state. The creative team stated very clearly that they first paired off Barbara with Dick then switched her to Bruce, and that this switch was what made the fans use the word “wrong.” The creative team then confirmed that this was the correct usage of the word “wrong,” i.e. that was the effect they were going for.

Which means zero. Because for many fans it would be "wrong" even if Dick endorsed it. It makes zero difference as it's a question of morality than any defined circumstance. Personally, if Barbara and Bruce want to go at it, whether Dick agrees or her father does, it's their call. They are adults. By law, they are "right" to do what they do - even when it's "wrong" by opinion or moral imperatives. The fans think it's wrong because they see Bruce as a daddy figure, Dick as a son and Barbara as a potential "daughter in law" to Bruce... and Bruce takes the potential "daughter in law". That's the crux of what's "wrong". There is no implication that the creators felt it was "wrong" in the sense that it destroyed the lives of Dick Grayson or Jim Gordon - which is the question your ITEMS refer to.

By law, this was right. They were - on the basis of MOTB being a starting point (though I see any real relationship as being later - conjective of course) - mature adults. Whether Dick went and jumped off a cliff, this was right. This was a choice made from their human rights. So it's only "wrong" because some of the fans find it "morally" objectional.

I do think it was "wrong" in a universal term. That it was a doomed relationship regardless of who was hurt. ToC supports this which to me means the creators do to. So when I say it's "wrong" I generally refer to it in this sense, but yes, I agree, the fans think it's wrong and the creators knew full well the fans would feel this way. Not only because of the moral arguments, but because it defies Bat myth! Sexual Blasphemy I say!

The Old Maid

10-10-2006, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by SJJames

A little insulting bearing in mind my point ...

As I did not set out to insult, one could ask if maybe this is a little defensive. (It's not in the same league with, "Unlike TOM, I go by what we see on the screen" or "TOM operates out of emotion, whereas I operate out of facts," or "I don't feel TOM likes Barbara," which is why TOM is so "negative". I disagree with all, BTW. And I'm going to give you a free pass on "in favour of their ideology and excessive analysis" since: {1} you didn't call me specifically; and {2} if it were true, it would include all the heavy hitters, including yourself. ;) ) Actually, I consider myself a moderate on both the affair and the Barbara character in general, and I think most people would agree.

I simply meant, could you clarify a little more when you assert and when you speculate. Regrets. No insult was intended. :)

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Well, I didn’t mean to imply that you’d paid no attention to the guys. But you’re almost alone in treating the women seriously. That’s all I meant, and I meant it as praise. :sweat:

This I get. And thanks much.

As for the DCAU pets (Krypto, Streaky, and Ace), I won't be doing those. (Sorry, Fido and Fluffy.)

On the "gold-digger-or-not" tangent, this actually would make a good Elseworlds story. In an Elseworld where Bruce is Batman but Dick is wealthier (much wealthier), any "ambitions" Barbara might have could not necessarily be concentrated on one man. Whom will she choose? Neither? Both? Which ambitions would prove expendable, and which would prevail? (This might do more to illuminate her character than the Timmverse affair!)

Originally posted by SJJames

It seems fairly clear when Bruce does tell Barbara -- and this is the beautiful tragedy the episode ["Old Wounds"] creates -- he is doing it because he feels it's in Dick's interest; that it's his failure to be able to deal with his role beyond the mask that sparks Dick's anger that takes him away from Gotham.

Beautifully put.

[Dick's] version does not ally with what the audience sees. There is no evidence Bruce is being manipulative ...

Depends. Could Dick be seeing this?

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Well, again, to paraphrase Mark Twain on infant baptism: Do I believe a guy can be romantically inexperienced and still be a seducer? “Believe in it? I’ve seen it done!”

It would take us off-topic to describe in any detail how it works. Suffice it to say that a guy can be charming—charismatic, attractive, and deeply attentive—without realizing that’s what he’s being. And it’s only a short step from being charming to being obliviously seductive. I’ve seen guys twist women into soft pretzels without knowing that’s what they were doing. I’ve even seen these guys collapse in shock and mortification when called on their behavior.

“Romance” need not enter it. There’s a famous story about the time a male movie star went to MGM boss Louis B. Mayer to ask for a raise. When he came out of LB’s office a friend asked, “Did you get more money?” “No, but I gained a father,” the bemused star replied. Politicians are famous for having this knack: Clinton, Reagan, Kennedy, Roosevelt, McKinley were presidents known as “seducers,” and not only (or even primarily, in the case of Reagan and McKinley) in the romantic sense. They had the ability to turn on the “high beams” and make the object of their attention feel like the most important person in the world.

It seems to me perfectly possible for someone to have this talent and be emotionally crippled and/or oblivious to the effect he has on the opposite sex. Bruce Wayne strikes me as the sort of person of whom this can be said.

Substitute "seducer" for "manipulator" and this interpretation has possibilities. In fact I think this did come up, paraphrased, in an older thread. Bruce could have revealed Barbara's identity to Dick, instead of the other way around. Alternately, Bruce could have told Dick it was okay with him if Dick told Barbara the truth. But no, Bruce had to be the one to do the big reveal. Now in one sense, that's not terribly unreasonable ... Dick is keeping his mouth shut to protect Bruce's secret more than his own. But whoever said it, Bruce chose the most theatrical way to do it, then seemed surprised at the result.

Now if Dick is the first to leave home, does it necessarily follow that he is (perhaps) the first discern a hypothetical trend? We remember that, eventually, all four of his acolytes will accuse Bruce of drafting/manipulating/sacrificing/pushing his followers. Are they all wrong (i.e. parroting Grayson), or was Robin on to something? If your answer is No, why do all four acolytes, from assorted walks of life, say it? And if your answer is Yes, was it that the timing was wrong, that Dick simply called Bruce on the quality before Barbara, and the audience, were ready to hear?

James

10-10-2006, 03:27 PM

BTW. And I'm going to give you a free pass on "in favour of their ideology and excessive analysis" since: {1} you didn't call me specifically; and {2} if it were true, it would include all the heavy hitters, including yourself. ;) )

In actual fact, as I recall, the original edit of that point was going to be blatantly aimed at Maxie (I think it was set up with a "I'm not going to name parties - but I will readily phoetically call them out, Ma-Axe-Zee - bear a little too much on excessive.. etc"). Simply because I've never forgiven him for his extensive - and in my opinion - excessive analysis of Touch of Curare. ;)

Yes, it was probably a little kittykatty on my part. I think the whole debate hinges on what is and what isn't speculative and I was a little curt with the potential implication that my point was preferencing on personal speculation than anything, particuarly as my point was there wasn't enough to endorse any speculation on Jim and Dick in the first place. My apologies. I should be a little more careful not to sour things.

Actually, I consider myself a moderate on both the affair and the Barbara character in general, and I think most people would agree.

Not that it makes any difference to how I regard you as a fellow poster and analyst, but I've always felt your essays lent quite aggressively at Barbara in this regard. Maybe that's just me. :)

I simply meant, could you clarify a little more when you assert and when you speculate. Regrets. No insult was intended. :)

No insults all round. All cool. :)

Depends. Could Dick be seeing this?

I think Dick is hurting and mixes up the Batman for Bruce. The whole tale is built around the fact that Batman is taking up more time than Bruce Wayne; that the Batman is dominate - if we see Bruce and Batman as seperate mandates, even if they are not seperate personas per se; one being about personal family, the other about the crusade. To me, it seemed that Bruce's poor choice to bring Barbara into the circle was to show that while Dick and the audience see the more methodical and violent Batman persona taking dominance (the fight in the apartment, the fact Bruce misses graduation), that Bruce is still there and he cares for Dick.

And I guess this is my point about the whole scenario. Even at his worst (and I'd say missing your wards graduation is a pretty poor show, as is beating up a guy in front of his family), we still see the "hero" in there. This seems fairly present in the failings of all heroes in DCAU; the hero remains.

I think what I'm bucking against is precisely what I used to feel myself - that somewhere in the future there was a relationship that pulled the whole family apart. But I've found as I watch the show, that jars with the "universe" and characters we see and I have to wonder, is it more likely that any choice made between Barbara and Bruce was either endorsed by their family or at worst, a miscalculation of character - that they expected the external characters to be okay with it. Either way would maintain the "hero" without excessively tainting their persons.

I guess what I'm arguing as evidence is the show itself; that to be part of the DCAU, any potential event may have to adhere to certain qualities of the show itself, regardless of any realistic assessments of the characters now and in the far future. Thereby any speculation would work best from the premise that the actual event was far less malevolent in intent or maybe outcome than most fans imagine.

Again, I'm not saying this is the only way, or that seeing the characters acting in a more callous or selfish manner isn't forseeable, I just think the angle I offer here is an idea which doesn't get enough support in fandom - that the events could transpire without the relationship working against the family bond of Dick, Jim and Barbara and Bruce - and yet still be a big mistake.

The only question such an angle leaves is Barbara's comments in BB - that NW has some bitter tales to tell. If it's not about her and Bruce, just what DID happen to NW? Maybe when one becomes a colder character as he did, one invites bitter circumstance... another topic maybe.

Fascinating stuff. Great to have you back TOM.

Maxie Zeus

10-10-2006, 04:12 PM

It’s hard to find the right word to describe Bruce. “Charmer” is too weak; a charmer usually only gets something small or temporary and exercises no long-lasting influence over his target. “Manipulator” implies trickery; Nixon was a manipulator, but he was in no sense a seducer or a charmer. And “seducer” is too closely associated with sexual conquest.

But I’ve used and would stick with “seducer” because it comes closest to the kind of psychological domination I’m talking about. A seducer (as opposed to a manipulator) gets what he wants giving his target something he or she wants, and he uses this kind of generosity along with a strong personal magnetism and not-always-insincere flattery to secure a strong bond of loyalty. And once that loyalty is secure, the seducer can demand—and can often without asking for it receive—further advantages. The object of seduction is not under any kind of pressure; he or she is under a kind of enchantment. Bitterness need not follow if the spell is broken, but it often does, and the disillusioned often come to regard the seduction as a kind of manipulation.

That’s vague. Here’s a more concrete example of the technique: Seducers and manipulators are both very good at identifying their target’s psychological insecurities. But while the manipulator will try to exploit these directly, the seducer will try to assuage them. This carries no cost for the seducer, and it can win him the target’s ardent love and loyalty.** But if the seducer ever “betrays” his conquest, there can be hell to pay, precisely because the conquest has let the seducer into a very vulnerable part of his psyche.

I see something like this in Bruce’s relationships with the “Robins.” They need a father figure; they have fantasies of empowerment; they generalize from the wrongs they’ve suffered and so acquire a thirst for justice. Batman gives this to them. (And how cool is it to have Batman say he wants you as a partner?) Yes, he’s hard and demanding, but that’s also part of his seductive appeal: He won’t just accept you, he’ll make you worthy of being accepted. But he gets something too. In fact, he gets the thing he most deeply values: aid in his war on crime. If he has to choose between his family and his war, he’ll choose the latter. And when his acolytes realize this—when they realize that, in the larger scheme of things, they are means to Batman’s ends and not an end in themselves—they rebel.

This doesn’t mean Bruce doesn’t care deeply for them; again, that’s a difference between a manipulator and a seducer (who is himself often sincerely and ardently in love with the object of his seduction). But he’d rather lose a relationship with a Robin than make the sacrifices he might need to make to keep them on board.

People are not “born” seducers, but they can come equipped with the talent or aptitude for psychological seduction. One politician (I’ve read of) as a child used to charm his mother by climbing into her lap, hanging his arms around her neck, and murmuring “Why do I love you so much?” (Let’s see how well James knows the history of his own country: it was Arthur Balfour.) And so “romantic experience” is not a prerequisite for this kind of skill.

I also like “seducer” in this context because it connects with Bruce Wayne’s “playboy” image. Okay, yes, true, to get this reputation he need do nothing more than stand around like an eligible statue at society functions; there’s no shortage of female Gotham nitwits for whom this would be enough. But I think the “seducer” diagnosis is the most elegant way of tying it all together: the loyalty he elicits from his “family” (and from Jim Gordon, who sometimes seems as star struck as Babs) and the admiration he gets from his social circle. This isn’t a stain on his character: Shakespeare’s Henry V is quite the seducer (in my sense) too. But if he’s not in complete control of this talent—and his moral rectitude suggests that he’s not—then it’s the kind of quality that can unhinge relationships. I referred above to guys who can unawares twist women into soft pretzels. These guys were never friends with the gals for very long.

** An instance and a true story: An only child was sent away to camp, where he was miserably lonely. His cabin counselor (a charismatic college man) spotted this, and would spend his free time with the shy kid, giving him much needed attention and encouragement. (No, nothing dirty happened; get your mind out of the gutter.) Years later (and this is a Hollywood anecdote, so imagine the calendar leaves falling away), after this kid had grown up to be a film director, he was introduced (for the first time, he thought) to the CEO of a major movie company. This CEO looked at him and said, “I remember you. You gave me this gray hair.” The CEO had been that camp counselor, and he described all the tricks he had played to buck up the kid’s spirits. The director was deeply touched, both by the stirred memory of how the guy had helped him at camp and by the fact that this important media mogul still remembered it. The director became a fervent Hollywood supporter of the businessman, even though he never made a movie for his studio.

EDIT:

In actual fact, as I recall, the original edit of that point was going to be blatantly aimed at Maxie (I think it was set up with a "I'm not going to name parties - but I will readily phoetically call them out, Ma-Axe-Zee - bear a little too much on excessive.. etc"). Simply because I've never forgiven him for his extensive - and in my opinion - excessive analysis of Touch of Curare. ;)

Ha! Throw a pie at me, will you? I’ll just duck and let The Old Maid catch it. She started it! (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=110999) :evil:

http://anbat.toonzone.net/extras/pies.jpg

James

10-10-2006, 04:47 PM

That’s vague. Here’s a more concrete example of the technique: Seducers and manipulators are both very good at identifying their target’s psychological insecurities. But while the manipulator will try to exploit these directly, the seducer will try to assuage them. This carries no cost for the seducer, and it can win him the target’s ardent love and loyalty.** But if the seducer ever “betrays” his conquest, there can be hell to pay, precisely because the conquest has let the seducer into a very vulnerable part of his psyche.

I'm hard pushed to argue against this. The term itself betrays the context somewhat. Maybe we should create a new English word to describe this form of seduction. I declare it to be Flaxgabblet.

I think my only issue here is that "seducer" is that it implies a conscious pull from the seducer to "convert" the subject to his wants. Be whatever he gives the converted as a reward, the primary goal of seduction is a selfish one. It is about control.

Now I'm not doing my point any favours here - Bruce is a control freak - but the control in this situation is not clinical, nor would I suggest the key goal is necessarily about gaining an ally in his war and as such, I'm not sure Seducer is a fair title. Could their be other reasons Bruce would induct them into his world, beyond his personal need for another soldier? Some of the comics have questioned whether Bruce genuinely believed such characteristics that were in Dick needed an outlet to prevent him from falling foul of the darkness and pain in his soul. Could one see the prime need to flaxgabbet as an unselfish one?

Seducing generally implies a disinterest in the wants of the victim. It is selfish. It gives to the victim only when and because it has to - in the effort to attain what it wants for the said target.

As such, I can't totally feel comfortable with the term being applied, but I do agree with a lot of what you contextually said, especially in regards to the outcomes of such seducing - or flaxgabbetizing.

I'm aware you said it was a vague title, but it was a fascinating breakdown, so I had to find something to say that just clap my flippers like an oiky seal.

One politician (I’ve read of) as a child used to charm his mother by climbing into her lap, hanging his arms around her neck, and murmuring “Why do I love you so much?” (Let’s see how well James knows the history of his own country: it was Arthur Balfour.)

As you rightly pointed out the other week, I'm clearly Russian. What would I know about British politics?

EDIT
Ha! Throw a pie at me, will you? I’ll just duck and let The Old Maid catch it. She started it! (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=110999) :evil:

http://anbat.toonzone.net/extras/pies.jpg

Dear lord, share the pie, don't hog it Old Maid.

The Old Maid

10-10-2006, 06:15 PM

Share the pie, don't hog all, Old Maid!

Done.

http://springville.ca.us/Images/PieContest.jpg

Maxie Zeus

10-10-2006, 09:04 PM

(“Flaxgabblet”? Okay. But I’d push for Freunleven (http://wbtower.ashyre.com/sound/clips/jerry-freunleven.wav) instead.)

It’s hard to find a word for what I’m describing. Maybe because there is no “thing” to describe. It’s more like a cluster of similar behaviors and attitudes.

The cheesiest example of this kind of thing probably shows up in certain teenage romance movies. So, the jock takes pity on the plain Jane and tries cheering her up by paying attention to her. He doesn’t want anything from her, really; mostly he wants to congratulate himself on being a decent sort of guy whose not all caught up with the pretty crowd. But he would be pissed if she ignored or wasn’t grateful for his attention. Or, there’s the class Romeo, who flirts with the girls (without any kind of follow up) because he finds their excited responses flattering. There is a kind of seduction or manipulation here, but it’s not of the hard core kind. It’s just (just?!) diddling with people’s emotions.

Why do some people do this? Self-regard and/or insecurity, I suspect. The jock talks to the ugly girl because he thinks she’ll get a little flidget in her stomach when he smiles at her. Romeo uses the girls as mirrors when a regular one isn’t handy. “I really am special,” the person says silently to himself, in tones that can be either smug or anxious.

But this kind of behavior can show up where “romance” is not an issue. That’s what I was mostly referring to when I talked about “seducers” who work by assuaging other people’s insecurities. Both the camp counselor I mentioned and Arthur Balfour were very good at finding and pushing other people’s “pleasure” buttons. These aren’t “seductions” in any sense of the word, though predators can use these tricks, which is why I think the term isn’t completely inapposite. But some people who are good at this do it because they do see it useful in winning allies and acolytes, and then the term, while not exact, is also somewhat appropriate. Other people who do this kind of thing, though, seem to do it helplessly, because they find it satisfies some kind of psychological need. They’re like the non-romantic versions of the jock or Romeo. The emotional conquest gives them some kind of satisfaction.

Again, and this is why it’s hard to classify this kind of behavior, there are different kinds of satisfaction. The most corrupt kind of satisfaction comes simply in the making of a conquest. But it’s also possible that such satisfactions fulfill a real need.

I’m still figuring out what I think—trying to put my intuitions into words—which is why this has been so tortuous and obscure. But I have the sense that this sort of thing is at work inside Bruce Wayne.

So, observers notice three things about Bruce Wayne/Batman, which they either think are unrelated, or which they think are somehow contradictory. (1) He’s a playboy. (2) The Robins all accuse him of being manipulative. (3) His Bat family is a replacement family that he vigorously defends. But think of it this way:

Bruce Wayne needs to be loved. How can he not, when he lost his parents at such a young age? He needs the love of a family, not a woman, and it has to be a family that is consistent with his other thirst, the one for justice and retribution. The Bat family fills this need. But he has to assemble that family. And he can only assemble it by giving its members something in return.

Hence the hypothesis: He is a natural “seducer” of people’s emotions; not of their romantic affections, but of their loyalty and devotion. He gives them what they need (a home, an authority figure, empowerment, and a chance to right wrongs); in return, they are his allies and also give him devotion. He does not avowedly make this demand of them; possibly he’s unaware of it himself, which is why he reacts badly when things turn sour. But the nature of his offering can’t help but elicit feelings of devotion in turn. And things go south when the Robins realize—like the plain Jane when she realizes the jock is going to take the head cheerleader to the prom—that it’s really all about Bruce. And the same ability to diddle with people shows up when he’s on the town as Bruce Wayne.

This isn’t to blame him for anything. If it comes to assigning blame, it’s probably best to think of the jock and the plain Jane: they’re both guilty to some extent, though of different things. Bruce is at most guilty of not realizing the effect he has on people; the Robins of not seeing and accepting what’s really going on. But it doesn’t make the hurt feelings go away.

Dear lord, share the pie, don't hog it Old Maid.

Why do I have the feeling that The Old Maid just saved you and me from getting a warning? :sweat:

James

10-11-2006, 05:50 AM

But think of it this way:

Bruce Wayne needs to be loved. How can he not, when he lost his parents at such a young age? He needs the love of a family, not a woman, and it has to be a family that is consistent with his other thirst, the one for justice and retribution. The Bat family fills this need. But he has to assemble that family. And he can only assemble it by giving its members something in return.

That's precisely the definition of flaxgabbet:

Bruce Wayne needs to be loved. How can he not, when he lost his parents at such a young age? He needs the love of a family, not a woman, and it has to be a family that is consistent with his other thirst, the one for justice and retribution. The Bat family fills this need. But he has to assemble that family. And he can only assemble it by giving its members something in return. This is flaxgabbet.

Mind reader. Yes, it was a very lazy person who added that entry.

On a more serious note, I agree. Of course, one wonders how far we go down this path before we all define ourselves as Flaxgabbet? When there is arguably no altruistic motivation in life, surely everyone in someway or form does a little flaxgabbet (or natural seducing for those still trying to work out what the pies are about - keep up)?

Hence the hypothesis: He is a natural “seducer” of people’s emotions; not of their romantic affections, but of their loyalty and devotion. He gives them what they need (a home, an authority figure, empowerment, and a chance to right wrongs); in return, they are his allies and also give him devotion. He does not avowedly make this demand of them; possibly he’s unaware of it himself, which is why he reacts badly when things turn sour. But the nature of his offering can’t help but elicit feelings of devotion in turn. And things go south when the Robins realize—like the plain Jane when she realizes the jock is going to take the head cheerleader to the prom—that it’s really all about Bruce. And the same ability to diddle with people shows up when he’s on the town as Bruce Wayne.

So really, what it boils down to is an imbalance in his personal motivation. Sensibly, a man who has lost his family at a young age would desire a replacement. This replacement is held back by his more attentive desire to bring meaning to the death of his family. The only way he can recouncile the two elements is to merge them, and unless he seeks to atone societies darker nature by making sure the kitchen is fairly spotless and making sure the heating isn't playing up, his only way to embrace the needs of Batman and Bruce Wayne is to mingle these needs in the Bat world rather than the domestic one.

I'm just wondering if his need for his companions is less to fulfill any internal need for loyalty and devotion, but a need to fill the empty space in his life that Bruce Wayne is unable to fill through Batman, and this is the only way it can be recounciled; that it is a natural seduction in what he offers, but the background to his need for the family is actually fairly normal, in a weird Bat-way, being that his family are a sort of surrogate family.

Afterall, the death of his family would not only bring the desire to make their death have meaning, there would be a desire to fill the hole that was left. He wants a family but being socially and domestically dysfunctional can only build one in the perameters he actually understands, and that is the world of Batman.

Again, this isn't disputing your point. You are talking about the methods rather than root causes, and I'm not really saying anything profound here. But when it comes to Dick's reaction - to me - it struck me as that of a young man lashing out. Yes, he nails Bruce is a manipulator - in some respects to his very core - but he does he understand the dysfunction that produces that? That the way Bruce Wayne handles Dick and later on Barbara and Bruce is simply the only way he can handle people? That it's not just the Batman that gets in the way of Bruce Wayne's domestic life, it could be that Bruce Wayne has no other understanding as to how to handle domestic life unless it's somehow entrenched in the only world he's been left to empathise with - the Batman's.

To me, it explains a great deal of the scene between Barbara and Bruce in Old Wounds - he does believe what he's doing he's doing for Dick, not Bruce Wayne or Batman and he is not manipulating Barbara or Dick. However Dick can only see the external workings of Batman (not surprising being he's just had Bruce miss his graduation) and not the internal failings of Bruce Wayne which are as indicative of his parent's deaths as Batman is.

Why do I have the feeling that The Old Maid just saved you and me from getting a warning? :sweat:

Well, I'm still tempted to warn myself for being a smartarse, but I've been resisting that temptation for years now. One more pie isn't going to swing it.

The Guitar Slayer

10-11-2006, 04:45 PM

Hokay. So.

1. Please endorse at least one of the following statements. If none of them reflect your beliefs, state your preferred option.

Ok, fill in your own blank answer. I accept the producers' word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship. However, the characterization of it as "wrong" or that Bruce and Barbara even agree as to what it exactly was is up for grabs. (I will expound upon that later)

2. What exactly is Dick to Bruce? And don't say "his ward," because that's a legal term. In emotional bonds, what are they? What, if any, are Bruce/Batman's obligations to Dick?

Bruce is Dick's significantly older brother. He took in this child who had lost his parents in a similar way to him. He succeeded in his goal to not allow Dick to become like him. However, by the same token, Dick realized as he grew up that Bruce was definitely not on a good path. The fact that Bruce continued to go down that path of obsessions and vengeance, growing perhaps more dedicated to that as he aged, despite the fact his "family" was growing -- Barbara, Tim, new friendships with the JL -- Dick thought he was going too far with this Mission, this penance. Bruce, his old chum, had disappeared; Dick had become a soldier on the Crusades, not a son or a ward. A similar thing happened to Catwoman -- her character became horribly weak because she no longer had that sway over Bruce she used to. There was no fun in Bruce anymore -- no jokes, no chasing, no witty back and forth. No chemistry.

In regard to the Barb situation, Dick probably saw Bruce as recruiting Barbara for his Mission. Another soldier. And he couldn't stand to watch it and knew that Barbara wasn't going to change her mind on his word.

3. If you see Bruce and Dick as parent-and-child, would you be okay with Barb's behavior if she had been a man who dated daughter then mother? If you see Bruce and Dick as brothers, would you be okay with it if Barb was a man who dated a younger sister then her older sister?

I've known girls who dated the younger brother, found them to be an ass or just plain immature, and then dated the older brother. It usually didn't work out, but it's more ok in my eyes to date someone's sibling rather than the sperm and egg sources for the two of them.

From what I interpret the timeline to be, Dick and Barbara dated casually, Bruce let Barbara into the cave, Dick left, Barbara felt abandoned and was rather miffed, Dick returned, and when Dick still could not reconcile with Bruce, he went off to Bludhaven. Whether or not he tried to get Barbara back is unclear. It's in that time after Dick's final departure that I would assume the relationship started and at some point ended. A lot had time had passed between dating one brother and the other.

4. If Dick Grayson had never existed, would it change your opinion of the proposed Bruce/Barbara affair?

Not really. Bruce is messed up. As time goes on, his persistence in his obsession doomed any romance, regardless of the woman. Barbara was still young, idealistic, and probably believed they would be together as long as they could fight crime together, and maybe she could work on him to stay with her after the cape and cowl were gone. She's had a crush on him since her father started working with him. Dick's contribution to the situation is the fact that he's Barbara's "the one who got away."

5. Do you think the animated James Gordon knows Batman's identity? Do you believe this knowledge (or lack of knowledge) was a factor in Jim's demonstrated preference for Dick Grayson as his daughter's suitor?

I do. However, he would never, ever say it aloud, even to Barbara. He would never do something to endanger her, and that includes acknowledging her vigilante activities and her complex relationships. Commish has probably seen the change in Batman over the years -- yeah, they still meet for Christmas coffee and everything, but he's not the same as he was when they started this tradition. Compare young Bruce we see in MotP to the end result in BB/JLU. Way, way, way more detached, dark, and bitter. When he finally connected the dots, Gordon realized that Barbara was in love with this man that had become so deep in his Mission. Don't forget that Bruce Wayne had a rep of being a fop until TNBA. Would you want your daughter to date that compared to the nice boy next door?

The Commish is a smart guy; he can probably deduce who Nightwing is, and, in part, why he left. Bruce has changed, Batman has changed, both for the darker. Dick has left to make his own life away from the Bat and his increasingly dark moods. James Gordon would rather his daughter leave him than to be part of Bruce Wayne's life, waiting for something that won't come from the playboy or the vigilante.

6. What exactly is James Gordon to the Batman? What, if any, obligations does Batman have to him?

Despite all the changes in Bruce, Alfred and Gordon are still the people that can get to him. They are his friends, not his subordinates or his soldiers. Gordon has been his friend for about twenty years now. Other than Alfred, he's his oldest friend. Batman works not only for his parents but for good men like Jim Gordon -- Jim Gordon is Everyman, the entirety of Gotham City to Batman. That's his Mission -- failing Jim Gordon or his parents in catching a criminal are both pretty bad, the latter being worse only because he can't say sorry to their faces.

7. Although Barbara obviously misread her father's feelings and beliefs in TNBA's "Over The Edge," she's correct that her choices could cost him his career. What, if any, are her obligations to him?

She's trying to fulfill any daughter's obligations to her father -- what he has asked of her. Jim Gordon more or less asked her to take care of herself, be happy, and make him proud. She tries to take care of herself as well as the rest of the Bat family, is generally happy until we see her in BB, and she wants to make him proud by helping him save the city. She also loves Daddy no matter what. That's a debatable obligation, but she doesn't have a problem with it in any event.

8. What is Alfred’s relation to Bruce Wayne/Batman? To Dick Grayson? To Barbara Gordon?

Bruce and Dick are his kids. He's raised both of them since they were nine, Bruce as a big brother, Dick as the little brother. I do think he was a bit stricter with Dick than he was with Bruce as to how far he let Dick go in the name of his parents; for Dick, he made sure there was more than training and obsessing. Consider that Bruce had seem his parents die in a rather bloody and personal manner -- they were targeted because they were rich. Alfred probably figured it better that the boy thrust himself into study rather than ripping wings off flies or throwing cats onto a barbeque. Meanwhile, Dick's parents just happened to be on the highwire when it was cut; they were just part of an unlucky third party to a vendetta. They weren't killed BECAUSE they were the Flying Graysons or acrobats -- the killer could have easily decided to shoot a clown or stab the ringmaster. They died BECAUSE of another man's debt. It was also a lot less gory, so Dick probably was less traumatized to start, and that in combination with Alfred learning the first time around led to him being more functional. However, they are both grown now, and the only chance they have in reconcile is their "father" Alfred, who cannot be proactive in this area, only a catalyst. They have to walk themselves -- Alfred is not young enough to carry them anymore.

What is Alfred to Barbara? She has a loving daddy; if anything, she should be seeking out a female to fill up that gap her mother left behind. Instead she ends up becoming attached to this caretaker of two lost boys.

The better question is, what is Barbara to Alfred? This is going to seem random and OT, but during the Bats RPG run here on TZ, we conjured up Andrea Beaumont and her daughter by Bruce, Angela. However, I'll quote my run as Alfred because I think this is what he sees in Barbara, Andrea, and a few other women that Bruce perhaps should have stayed with and if he was normal and the world was perfect, could have.

"I served Thomas and Martha from the time you were born. They wanted nothing but the best for you, and by hiring me and knowing all of my credentials, they protected you. However, they did not intend for me to raise you. Your mother gave up society for you. She was invited to forty-four parties during your first six months of life. She never went to one because you were worth too much to her. She never left you in the hands of a stranger because you were an inconvenience.

"Thomas worked ungodly hours at the hospital. Despite the fact he was rich and could have taken many, many nights off to hobknob with royalty and further his own position, he sacrificed that for the sick and dying. However, you still had sway over him. Rather than just come home and sleep all day, he stayed up even when exhausted just to catch a glimpse of you. He cared for you when your own mother was too exhausted. At the start of your life, I was simply a bodyguard, hired to prevent tragedies like the Lindbergh baby. That was it.

"You threw your fits and had your terrible twos. There were some days that your behavior was appalling and an embarrassment to your family. Rich brat that you were, I would have thought nothing of it if your father had given you a swat once or twice."

"Thomas Wayne never raised a hand toward you. Nor did your mother nor I.

"After your parents were killed, dead, and buried, you were entrusted to my care. I was held to a strigent protocol, as I was not a blood relative. Because they let me keep you all these years, and though focused and a serious child, I thought I had done well by your parents. You were relatively happy. The persona of Batman seemed therapeutic for you at the start. You helped people that seemed untouchable to society and eased your guilt.

"I was very wrong about that last assumption.

"After your parents passed, I raised you the best I could. I never had children of my own, and thus you received all I could offer to the future. I had the hope that one day you would do the same. Perhaps she would be the light in your life. It went out back when you were ten years old and has never returned since. You seek it in darkness, delving deeper and deeper and getting lost in the process. This girl, this child...she was a lifeline. Perhaps she could do what I could not and intercept you from continuing your chosen destiny as the Darkest Knight.

"All that Batman has done for you has increased your pain and suffering, driving you deeper into darkness. You have dragged along innocents now as well.

"You pushed away redemption from a sin that only exists in your head. Did you ever think that perhaps she was not a sin sent to haunt you but a gift from your parents to save you?"
If Alfred had lived to see Bruce in Batman Beyond, he would have wept. That ending is probably the last he wanted for his his son. I don't doubt that Alfred would have given anything and everything for him to avoid it -- whether it be through Barbara, fatherhood, reconciliation with the past, therapy, even rock collecting -- just something to stop the descent into the Abyss. Barbara at that stage was probably Bruce's last hope for something, even if it was an accident to start (more about that later).

9. Do you believe that Barbara Gordon’s life, as it plays out through Batman Beyond, is the best life that she could reasonably hope for?

No.

If your answer to Question 9 was “No,” answer to the following two-part question:

10(a). Please choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion would be an aspect of her optimal life. Note that several combinations of answers are possible. Consider the possible combinations carefully.

c. In old age, Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne are romantically involved with each other.

OR

d. In old age, Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson are romantically involved with each other.

She lost out on both men in the end. Barbara, to me, seemed to want a normal life -- house, kids, grandkids. Ultimately. Career woman, crime fighter...but eventually back to normal. She's the most normal of the whole Batcrew, having parents that weren't murdered horribly. I don't think she ever wanted to wait until she was past menopause to marry. She honestly believed that Bruce would eventually hang up the cape and cowl and just have a happily ever after -- Barbara was very young when this all started, and idealism and denial of reality are powerful things.

That said, the other options will reflect the "or" option.

e. In old age, neither Barbara Gordon nor her significant other are involved in “caped crusading.”

i. Bruce Wayne/Dick Grayson gave up caped crusading soon after he and Barbara became romantically linked.

10(b). Do you believe that Barbara Gordon, looking back on her life, would regard your choice for her life as the optimal one, or do you think she would fail to recognize that the life you chose for her would be the best one she could have had? Explain.

I don't think Barbara ever thought that the Mission was indefinitely long. She thought that Bruce would change and grow and finally put his demons to rest, or that she and Dick would sort everything out in the long run (and perhaps they did, but she still didn't marry him and get a "normal" life out of it). Idealistic and naive when she was twenty-something -- life was a great adventure still, and she could defy death every night. I don't think she saw how messed up Bruce was until later on in the relationship since she was still feeding off of her crush for him for quite a long time, not to mention hero worship. She's not stupid, but she was the most optimistic out of the Batcrew.

In her dreams? If everything had played out the way she wanted? Yes, Barb would choose the life I presented.

Realistically? I think she'd just ask that they all stopped sooner. Doesn't matter if they're alone, just that the Mission is put to rest and no one else sacrifices in the name of it, whether it be by relationship, body, or innocence.

11. Do you believe that the elderly Barbara Gordon regards her life as the best one she could have led?

Hindsight is 20/20; she kicks herself occasionally, but she can't and won't dwell on it or else she'll end up like Bruce. The reason I believe her to be pissy in BB is because he recruited a new kid for the Mission. That, and he's even more stubborn and obsessed with the Mission than ever. As to "the best one she could have led", that's all in the wind now.

Just as I reminder, I don't think she ever regrets being Batgirl, heroine of Gotham. It's all the other stuff, from the minor "Gee, I have no social life" to the horrifying flashback events in ROTJ, that bothers her.

The next section directly addresses the issue of whether Barbara and Bruce ever had a romantic entanglement with each other.

Characterize your responses to the following statements. You may explain your answers if you wish.

13. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman before she first donned the Batgirl costume (pre-“Shadow of the Bat”)
a. Strongly agree. The crush from childhood.

14. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she donned the Batgirl costume but before she joined the Bat family.
b. Agree. The kissing fantasy, but it's probably not as fangirlish as it was, now that she knows the man is real and can be grumpy.

15. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she joined the Bat family.
c. Disagree. The thing with Dick put a damper on everything. She was hurt and probably wasn't in the mood for any relationship.

16. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she left the Bat family.
b. Agree. I think she left and still stayed with Bruce, trying to persuade him to hang up the mask with her.

17. Barbara Gordon continues to harbor romantic feelings for Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond.
d. Strongly disagree. Hindsight and some hurt feelings have shown her that Bruce probably never intended for them to have her happily ever after fantasy. Until the day he dies, he will continue the Mission, and all she can do is try to keep others from losing as much as she did. She's got a new hubby in BB anyway.

18. Barbara Gordon never harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
d. Disagree. I classify their pre-Old Wounds relationship as mutual crushes that never were fully acted upon, and just when Dick was about to, his world came crashing down.

19. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after Dick quit the Bat family.
b. Agree, to some extent. She was very hurt when he ran off and confused too. To me, it sounds like she still thinks fondly of their "puppy love" in BB, though she does slam it (mentally going "Snap out of it, Barb. You're being soft in front of the kid."). As mentioned before, Dick is the one that got away for her. The feeling on some level is mutual in all liklihood.

20. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after he returned as Nightwing.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.

21. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson at one time, but they eventually evaporated.
See above.

22. Barbara Gordon never lost her strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
b. Agree to some extent -- see 19.

23. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne simultaneously.
c. Disagree. There were probably years between the two interests.

24. Do you believe it is possible for two people to be in “puppy love” even when they are old enough to form mature relationships? Explain.

Puppy love is love that is innocent. For some, it's because the participants are so young that they don't know what to do next on a physical level. On the other hand, for others, it's because they care so much about each other that they don't know what to do next -- stay friends, be lovers, get married....list goes on. They just don't want to hurt what they have and would rather stay innocent than do anything that might harm it.

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were ever romantically linked, answer the following multi-part question.

25(a). Relationships that fail to become permanent can be characterized as having an inauguration point, a period of intensification, a peak, a downslope, and a termination. Where in the following timeline would you place (i) the inauguration point, (ii) the peak, and (iii) the termination point of the Barbara/Bruce relationship?

i. Between “Chemistry” and Mystery of the Batwoman, but also after Mystery of the Batman before ROTJ.

Judging from the type of phone call and the reactions from Alfred and Tim, I'm willing to bet Bruce had his allotted stupid day of the decade and ended up doing the Walk of Shame back to the Manor.

For those not familiar with the term, the Walk of Shame is the walk a person makes back to his or her abode wearing the same clothes as they did the night before, the implication being they unexpectedly bedded someone.
In short, Bruce got stupid, slept with Barbara before she went back to school, and then had to deal with Alfred and Tim when he got home. Bruce thought it was a mistake, while Barbara considered it a big deal and that they were "together." Her confusion is evident in the phone convo. Looking at the phone convo, Tim wants no part of this -- you were stupid, you deal with it. Alfred is used to Bruce trying to dance out of things, but like I said above, I think he teases because he wants it to work. Either way, they're ragging on him, and he's not very happy about it.

After MotB, I think the cat and mouse game between Barb and Bruce eventually pans out into a relationship that evolves slowly, but hits its peak after....
ii and iii. Between Return of the Joker and Batman Beyond.

If there was ever an event that would literally drive Bruce and Barb into each other's arms, it would be what happened to Tim. In the immediate aftermath, they're probably clinging to each other for life. However, once things settle again and Barbara gains a few more years, I think she starts making the push toward retirement together, which does not happen.

25(b). Do you believe that Tim Drake and Alfred ever knew that Barbara and Bruce were romantically linked?

Oh, yah. Totally. See the Walk of Shame theory above.

25(c)+(d). Walk of Shame Theory.

25(g). Who do you think ended the relationship? Do you think it was a mutual decision?

I think Bruce never took it as seriously as Barbara did. The Mission always came first. However, I don't think that he would go so far as dump her -- he probably feels guilty for everything that has happened to her, particularly after ROTJ. I think he does care for her deeply, though. I've always believed that Bruce the person, not Batman, would be the marrying, committed sort if he was normal. I think he would stick it out as long as Barbara wanted him too, maybe as an effort to please his parents in some weird way.

Also, Bruce has never "dumped" a girl either. They've dumped him because a) he's a fop (BTAS); b) they love Daddy more (Talia and Andrea); c) they're plant people (Susan); d) they love shiny things more (Selina). In the end, I think Barbara is the one that walks out on Bruce, possibly in anger, but he does not stop her, hold it against her, or reach out to her any further. He lets her fly.

25(i). Do you believe Dick Grayson ever found out about the relationship between Barbara and Bruce? If so, do you think it was before, during, or after it occurred? How do you think that knowledge (if he had it) affected his relationship with Barbara and Bruce? Do you think the two of them cared what he thought?

I believe he knew once the relationship was in full swing, probably informed by Alfred or Tim, or possibly both in a "Discretion is the better part of valor, Master Timothy" moment. Before ROTJ, but after his move to Bludhaven. Barbara probably felt something akin to pain or shame if she felt it hurt him. Bruce already was cold to most people and was estranged at the time, so I doubt he cared. I think that this in combination with ROTJ killed any chance of reconcilation with Bruce. However, I do think he and Barbara reconciled after both were out of the crime fighting arena (or at least before BB).

25(j). Do you think the relationship between Bruce and Barbara was known to Jim Gordon?
Yes. Jim is smarter than the mustache leads you to think.

27. Do you think that Bruce Wayne, psychologically, has a strong “seducer” streak in his personality? Do you think such an aspect of his personality could have played a part in whatever happened between him and Barbara?

Bruce is only a seducer when he wants to be (Injustice for All, I think that ep is), and I don't think he ever plotted and schemed to be with Barbara. He made a stupid mistake, he tried to avoid her, she wore him down, and they settled in together. I think relationship came to be because of all the effort on Barbara's part, and he kind of sat back and went "OK." Why she pursued him is why any Batman fangirl wants to bed an Oedipal tight-wearing stubborn-as-all-hell brainy studmuffin.

Extra Credit: Compose a short biographical note about Barbara Gordon that uses your answers above to sketch the course of her life as Batgirl and beyond, paying close attention to the nature and circumstances of her relationship with Bruce Wayne and its effect on her life.

Okey dokey. Minus the short part.

Barbara Gordon was the daughter of Lieutenant Jim Gordon, one of the few good men left in Gotham. When she was young, her father started to work with the mysterious man called the Batman. He was a combination nightmare creature and guardian angel figure to the little girl -- he was scary, but he did so much good. He took care of her daddy.

As she grew up, she saw more and more of the Batman. Even though some called him a monster, she knew he was a brave man. She even had a crush on him. So when her dad was in trouble and Batman seemed to do nothing about it, Barbara decided to take matters into her own hands and save her father's career.

After becoming Batgirl and working with Batman and Robin on a variety of cases (and having her crush persist), Barbara was soon informed by the man himself that Bruce Wayne was Batman and by logic Dick Grayson was Robin. She had been dating Dick casually for quite some, but when he found out that she was Batgirl, he flew off the handle and left. Feeling rather hurt and confused, she thrust herself into work, school, and justice. She even put aside her feelings for Batman (which were now kind of embarassing now that she was working with the actual man) and Dick. When Dick did return, it wasn't the same. He had warned her that she was going to become just another grunt in Bruce Wayne's war on the people who stole his Mommy and Daddy. She didn't believe that, and she told him that she didn't believe that was what Bruce thought of him. Eventually, Dick left for Bludhaven after trying to reconcile with Bruce but failing. It's unclear whether or not he tried to get Barbara back at the time.

Because of the young nature of the newest Robin, Barbara and Bruce ended up working together more often than not. However, it was not until she went off to college for her masters that anything happened. On a break from college, she and Bruce had a night out and somehow ended up sleeping together (I'll leave that plotbunny to the fan fic writers). Bruce immediately distanced himself from her, swearing it would never happen again and that it was wrong. She, on the other hand, thought it meant something more, possibly drawing on her longtime crush to fill in the blanks. After dealing with Batwoman, Bruce continued to avoid Barbara, but she persisted. After pursuing him, she finally wore him down and they started seeing each other off the job.

The relationship was thrown for a loop after the events of Return of the Joker. With Alfred caring for Tim constantly, Bruce had no one else to talk to other than Barbara about his guilt, something they both shared in this case. They became extremely close, and Alfred hoped that possibly, because of her and events, that Bruce would finally give up the cape and cowl. This hope was shared by Barb, who had wanted, ultimately, a normal life. Yes, she loved her dayjob and her nightjob, but she also wanted her dad to be the awesome Grandfather he would be and plus maybe some normalcy and social life that she hadn't had since high school.

That did not happen. Barbara, despite being nearly fifteen years younger, decided to hang up her cape and cowl long before Bruce did (to some extent, he never has). This is possible due to an incident involving a machine gun and perhaps how little Bruce may have felt for his little soldier girl. However, the relationship and her efforts to get him to quit lasted for a fair time. Eventually, Barbara gave up on Bruce and left him to his own dark devices.

By the time she left Bruce, Barbara was no longer the happy-go-lucky, optimistic person she had been at the start of this. She'd let youth pass her by, and she had also given up a fair chunk of her future because of past injuries and now acquired bitterness. However, she could not leave Gotham. Especially not now, when Bruce was spiralling pretty low, getting darker and more removed from the people he saved. Barbara went from working in the computer crimes unit to major case, major case to rank, and eventually took her father's place as commissioner. Now that her ducks were in a line, Barbara finally decided to tend to her long neglected personal life and was married.

She watches over Terry McGinnis, Wayne's heir, warning him of the pitfalls of being in Bruce Wayne's army. She saves Gotham by the book, knowing that if she gives Bruce as much leeway as her father did, he'd probably build a recruiting station and drag more kids into it. She does not want others to sacrifice as much as she did for one man's unsolvable dream and for one unsalvagable city.

Ok, that took me 4.5 hours. I thought hard. And I think there should be another question up there.

What effect did the death of Jim Gordon have on Bruce and Barbara's relationship?

Of course, it would be a lot of theory and fan fictiony stuff, since that's never really addressed in the series. However, that probably was an interesting point in the relationship, regardless of whether it was during or after.

Arsenal

10-11-2006, 09:29 PM

The Old Maid:
On a fourth hand (someone’s other hand), we don’t see the Bruce/Barbara relationship, and so have no way to know that what turmoil/excitement they may have had. When Bruce isn’t working or putting in face time at his day job, he’s asleep. He could very well be deadly dull in relationships. (We would have more information if Bruce could have made his onscreen relationships work for more than a few weeks.)

Barbara was arguably with Bruce (at least initially) for the excitement. How does she describe the relationship to Terry? Not in terms of remembered anniversaries and romantic dates--no, she recalls fighting crime on the street. She describes the perfect crimefighting team, not a loving couple.

Barbara got into crime fighting for the excitement, not because of a personal loss. It would not be a stretch to suggest she enjoys the "drama" of being entangled with Nightwing or Batman. (I would conjecture that, in her youth, she cared less about Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne; but I have no hard evidence.)

Honestly, it is surprising that Barbara became unenamored with "the street." I would guess there was an incident (perhaps, an injury or Tim's brainwashing) that jarred Barbara back to reality of the dangers of being Batgirl. She becomes disenfranchised with vigilantism. Meanwhile, the latest tragedy only feeds Bruce's guilt trip that began when he was an 8-year-old child.

The Old Maid

12-13-2006, 02:57 PM

Alex Weitzman

12-14-2006, 03:59 AM

Forgive the necropost, but it may just be worth it. Scroll down (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/sections/fanworks/edits/) to the "Eschatology of Barbara Gordon" essay, where parts 4 through 6 are new.

Let the pies fly.

I prefer cherry, apple, or chocolate.

Whew. Fantastic stuff, as usual. Would that I had the philosophical expertise to exhibit this kind of deep thought.

That said, these new sections signify to me that I've come across as more negative than I expected to. I say that due to being quoted twice as an "anti-Gnostic fan". (For the sake of my own purposes and sanity, I will transmute the term Bat-Gnostic into Bruce/Barbara shipper, which essentially seems to be the same thing.) Perhaps it is inevitable that this should have happened: in the process of discussing this one topic so much - Bruce and Barbara hooking up - all of my comments on Barbara are related to it and thusly reflect just this one topic. Spend so much time talking about one person's negative connotations and people will probably assume you feel really negative about that person. I'd planned on doing this a while ago, so I'd better get to it now - my opinion about what's good about Barbara Gordon.

First off, I should point out that this is not backpedaling. While some of my earlier phrasings have been inelegant (rhymes-with-witch), I still think of the whole Bruce/Barbara/Dick affair as being mostly Barbara's mistake. I also consider myself to be more in the group of people delighted by the developments. As I've said elsewhere, torridity is not automatically invalid in storytelling, and if anything it creates more compelling conflict when done right. Consider the alternative in storytelling choices - Barbara remains with Dick and they grow old together happily. Earlier in this thread, I said that's what she should have done, but that's advice meant towards the character as if she was real. Recognizing that she's a character in an ongoing drama, this is a far less savory option, as it provides no conflict and simply a steady and predictable path towards an end you can already imagine for yourself. We know from elsewhere that b.t. has disdain for generic happy-ending marriages for superheroes, having bashed both Lois & Clark and Peter & MJ on this board. And he's right; that's the END of the story, so if you expect to keep going, you don't skip to the end. You twist it up more. And even with my personal and moral objection to Barbara in this romantic triangle, it's incredibly easy to both dislike the actions of a character you like in the world of Batman, where villains gain our sympathy and enjoyment all the time while doing things we easily recognize as wrong and/or unpleasant. Or how about Batman's coldness in Mudslide to Hagen's situation? Just as the characters are not black and white, neither necessarily are the audience's opinions of them.

Now, for that which Barbara deserves credit. In fact, let me point out that, on the whole, I like Barbara. Partially because her follies add so intriguingly into the dramatics, but also for the simple reason that she's a likable and sympathetic person. I'd say that her best run, as a likable character, is in TNBA as just a member of the Bat-family, and I'm going to attribute some of that to a woman I should have recognized in my Underrated list a while ago: Tara Strong. Melissa Gilbert (and Mary Kay Bergman, echoing Gilbert's performance) did a good job, but gave Barbara a slight petulance to her delivery that never quite pleased me entirely. Strong, on the other hand, balanced the lithe and the intense in Barbara's character almost effortlessly, and IMHO upped her likability factor tenfold. So, here's some things that made/makes Barbara great:

Conscientious daughter. The question of how Barbara felt about her father has been raised, especially in terms of Barbara Beyond in Eyewitness when she says, "I'm not my father." That's the line that brings up the question about how she felt about her dad and his methods. However, while there's certainly a question about what lies underneath in her, she was under duress and perhaps her Spellbinder-induced confusion has raised new questions for her about her father rather than dig up old ones. And focusing on that line ignores way more evidence of her ironclad love for the elder Gordon. She got into this whole business primarily because of how much she was Daddy's girl. In Heart of Steel, she brings to light a crucial piece of evidence to Batman that would not have been noticed had she not been so sure of the fact that her real father would not treat her the way the Robo-Jim did. Barbara would not have come to that conclusion if her relationship with her father was not as loving and deep as it is. While she was foolish to jump into the line of fire in Heart of Steel and Shadow of the Bat, she is not (at this point) doing it because of thrill-lust. She does it because she loves her father too much to sit on the sidelines and hope for others to return him to her safely. We've seen far worse follies borne of love in this series than Barbara's. And Over the Edge is, if nothing else, a dramatization of her fear that she's not even being fair enough with Jim Gordon even after all this constant and consistent showing of her devotion to him. Besides whatever other mistakes the love triangle brings, Barbara Gordon is a damn good daughter.

Worthwhile love interest. I don't speak for everyone, or even everyone of my mindset, but I suspect that those of us who are mad at Barbara for dumping Dick feel that way because she was doing such a good job with him before. Batman daydreams aside, there were real sparks there between these kids. Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon, same age and essentially family friends through their fathers, adopted or real. One could easily assume a certain amount of "growing up together" between them, since Jim Gordon was so involved with the Grayson case and saw the placement of Dick into Wayne's care himself. They know each other and know each other's tics and buttons, and they had a definite kind of Hepburn/Tracy style going on between them. For her part, she was doing (again, in my opinion) what a clearly-wooed girl should do: she played with him for the sake of actual play, but made her own intentions clear and inviting. Barbara was enjoyable to watch in the emotional dance with Dick because she wins sympathies so easily with her honest yet fun approach to the dating scenario.

Committed superhero. Does the question of why Barbara remained in the Batcave with the Bat-team taint her time with them? Maybe, maybe not. There isn't that much during her TNBA time that alludes to it, save fleeting moments in Torch Song and The Ultimate Thrill. (Oh, and that Old Wounds ep.) Mostly, Barbara-as-Official-Batgirl was there for the duty of it all, and this is something that should not be ignored. She pursued the badguys with just as much determination as Batman, and without the psychological hang-ups. Honest commitment to the good fight should be rewarded with our respect, and even if her later years seemed to bring out the overzealous flirt in her (Batwoman), this does not invalidate the good she's done. Just like Bruce hanging up his cowl in old age and snarling into a bitter old codger certainly doesn't invalidate his golden years. Also of note, her commitment coupled with her lack of severe mental disturbances gave her the ability to do the job without grimacing humorlessly. Her wisecracking has been seen as alternately superfluous, distracting, or theft of proper Robin activity. However, just because she and Tim Drake are in a similar boat psychologically, it doesn't mean that Drake gets the upper hand in similar sentiments just because his costumed persona has the more iconic status. Barbara has just as much of a right to wisecrack, and her approach to humor is probably most like what any of us would do in the same situation. In this persona especially, Barbara is an invaluable addition and extremely likable.

Stern mother-figure. Barbara Beyond gets a lot of my disdain, perhaps mostly due to the fact that she's the only Barbara we get who's actually done the sin as opposed to simply leading up to it. But while I won't retract the sentiment behind my referenced foul language directed at her, I will note that the character has two modes, and sometimes her appearances can be read either way. Sometimes Barbara Beyond is as inelegant as my earlier words were. But sometimes she comes across as the way I suspect she was really intended to: an authority figure for our young protagonist who has her legitimate concerns about his actions but simply takes them in stride. There are quite a few times that I think of Commissioner Barbara Gordon as being tough on Terry just to keep the boy honest, and sighs with a resigned smile as he goes off and does what he has to anyway. This is not all the time, and it depends on the episodes; arguably, the better ones usually feature the more sympathetic Barbara. But this is also something she deserves credit for, especially since I feel like this is the way she's supposed to really come across.

Anyway, those are just some of the things I think Barbara has done right as a person and a character. Do I still have problems with her? Oh, sure. Do I still think she's mostly to blame with the romantic hornet's nest? Yep. But I wouldn't tell her how I feel (so to speak, that is) if I didn't care. You don't see me going around trying to point out Derek Powers' shortcomings.

Sirkenz17

12-14-2006, 08:10 AM

I personally think that this thread defines the term "overanalysis."

Maxie Zeus

12-14-2006, 09:23 AM

I personally think that this thread defines the term "overanalysis."

And this is why I've stopped visiting this forum.

Alex Weitzman

12-14-2006, 09:46 AM

I personally think that this thread defines the term "overanalysis."

If we prattlers don't get this rambling out, we'll just end up on TV making longwinded speeches about NATO or something. Believe me, you want us here instead, where we actually might say something useful.

Sirkenz17

12-14-2006, 11:37 AM

Oh. I didn't see it that way, Alex.

Please excuse my interruption.:sweat:

Wolf Boy2

12-14-2006, 12:16 PM

James Harvey

12-14-2006, 12:55 PM

I think efforts like the ones made by The Old Maid and Maxie Zeus, among many others, give a unique feel to the board. It’s unfortunate to see it corrupted by some more of the basic and unpleasant aspects that infest the vast majority of the other forums around the net. It’s a shame to see such great work belittled. I applaud fans who take time to seriously look into certain aspects of this fictional universe many of us enjoy. The ones worth looking into and deserve to be explored. I hope to see this type of work continue to appear on this forum, and I look forward to future efforts by many of the great scribes here who put so much time and effort into their work.

Dens Maris

12-14-2006, 02:37 PM

I personally think that this thread defines the term "overanalysis."

I personally think that this thread defines the phrase "intelligence and insight of such daunting magnitude that a fourth-year English major with a 3.8 GPA can feel contemplatively inadequate," but I suppose your mileage may vary. ;)

But I feel the need to tell you something else. Forget GameFAQs or IMDB or GenericAvatarForum.net/Zukoflameofvengeance.php or any other board where you might be able to get away with a comment like this-- they're lightweights. On other forums I've been a member of (and still am, truth be told), your e-mail address would be pumped with spam and hate mail, your IP address would be put in a sticky for all to see, your avatar would be changed to a highly unflattering picture of a certain farm animal, your custom rank would be altered to a phrase that violates every Family Friendly filter on the internet, any IM service account you use would be flooded with spambots, and with the sincerely frightening ability of several "admins" I've met over the years, far more personal information than that would be thrown out in the open as well, and only weeks later would you actually be banned-- and all of it for posting something like this, which is widely considered trolling.

Now compare that to this thread's reaction.

Seriously, dude. You've got it- no, we've got it great here. Let's try to appreciate that.

jv2k

12-14-2006, 04:42 PM

The only big message board that is anywhere near that sinister is 4chan and since it's all anonymous that type of stuff doesn't happen.

Dens Maris

12-14-2006, 05:56 PM

When it comes down to it, 4chan's just a testosterone-driven intellectual cesspool. There's worse. :sweat:

Wolf Boy2

12-15-2006, 09:58 AM

And of course, thanks to one idoit spammer, my INTELIGENT post was ignored.

I was hoping for a friendly debate concerning Miss Gordon. Can we get back to discussing Barbara now?

Alex Weitzman

12-15-2006, 12:43 PM

WE DO NOT KNOW THAT SHE DUMPED DICK

Any statements she made in "A Touch of Curare" are suspect, because she could've very easily been lying or misremembering. Clearly she WAS in fact lying, given the way she just dismissed a serious relationship as "puppy love."

It's my contention that Dick dumped HER, the same night he walloped Batman. There are several clues to this.

1. In "Old Wounds" makes it clear that he left Gotham THE VERY NIGHT that he hit Bruce, and did not return until that classic "My Word!" (quoth Alfred) moment in "Sins of the Father."

2. The moment in "You Scratch My Back" where Barbara looks wistfully at the picture of Dick in the box, while critcizing his budding relationship with Catwoman. It is obvious that she still had feelings for Dick, but he was being cold (a la Bruce).

I think we're pretty much all on the same page that Dick did the real official dumping. That is, "dumping" as defined as the absolute breaking of the relationship. The debate is more about whether Dick was justified; for instance, as in whether Barbara had first dumped Dick within her heart if not in deed.

Dick has a big fat over-the-top temper. No denying that, and there were far better ways for him to react in Old Wounds than the way he did. Therefore, he's certainly got his fair share of the blame. Same with the brushoffs in Chemistry and Scratch; Dick's being mean and he shouldn't be given a pass for that. Still, it's not coming from some abstract need in Dick to be cruel. As TOM has pointed out before, Dick's time in TNBA is marked by watching Barbara continue to do exactly what she knows he didn't want her doing. For Barbara's part, she never seems to think she's doing anything wrong. Is she? I've already pointed out her good works as a Bat-team member, and I stand by that, so the real crime on her part is probably the denial or ignorance that there is a problem between the three of them. Yes, Dick flashes her the cold shoulder on several occasions. But what was her offer in these instances? Barbara never attempted to listen to Dick and address his grievances. She never saw fit to calmly and convincingly explain to Dick her own reasons. She simply implies that he should get the hell over it and go back to the way things were. This is what TOM was talking about when she talks about Dick having to settle for the role of "the other man". Is that what you think Dick should have done?

THE "CRADLE ROBBING" RELATIONSHIP WAS BRUCE'S FAULT

You heard me. I think it is quite unfair the way people heap the blame onto Barbara. Dick had already dumped her, she didn't run away for Bruce. As a matter of fact, her relationship with Bruce developed after TNBA and MOTB. MOTB gives us the first REAL hint of her feelings with the cell phone scene (which is one of my all time favorite DCAU scenes).

Batgirl Returns' daydream stands to say otherwise. Anyway, let's continue:

Bruce is the one portrayed badly here. He never really had feelings for the kid, as clearly illustrated. Selina, Lois, Talia, Andrea and even Kathy Dusquesne were his women. If he loved Barbara, he wouldn't have been chasing after Halle Berry **cough** I mean, Kathy.

Instead of letting the kid down easy and avoiding a painful entanglement, Bruce hops in bed with her. Like most male/female friendships that turn sexual, the man was after gratification and the woman was after commitment. But Bruce is the ultimate non-commiter. And he broke Bab's heart (not to mention Dick's, if Dick ever found out about it). Come to think of it, his relationship with Kathy was probably the same way (although is is unknown whether that relationship was consumated).

It seems to me that Barb was a normal (so to speak) girl looking for love, but got caught up in the problems and issues of the messed-up men she continually fell for.

This is extremely assumptive on your part. I fail to see, in fact, where you get the idea that Bruce pursued Barbara merely for physical pleasure. There is no scene, at any point in the DCAU, where we ever see any of Bruce's possible forms of romantic/sexual interest in Barbara dramatized and put "on camera". The only argument you can make for that, as I see it, is to presume his intentions based on his track record with other women. And that would be folly, too, as Bruce/Batman had wildly different types of relationships (and dramatized reasons for/within them) with the women you mentioned above.

What we do see on screen is a flirtatious Babs and a nervous and panicked-by-the-attention Bruce. To jump from that to the idea of Bruce taking Barbara to bed solely for carnal reasons requires a huge leap and assumptions of character motivation not based on scenes actually produced. My conception of the affair is also based on assumption; technically speaking, you can't imagine it without assuming something. But (as I see it, at least) I attempt to keep my imagining of the affair based on the natural continuations of the attitudes definitely seen thus far. That would be, then, definite pursuing interest on Barbara's part and passive nervous avoidance on Bruce's. To take it that way would inevitably lead one to seeing Barbara as the driving factor of the relationship they had, no matter how long or short it was.

We will never really know, except in the unlikely occurance that the affair actually gets dramatized for us. But otherwise, I don't quite see Bruce as the man you paint him to be.

Wolf Boy2

12-15-2006, 06:14 PM

But persuing Kathy Duquesne...? If Bruce had feelings for Barbara, he would've acted on them.

And don't say it's because of her "age." She couldn't have been any younger than Kathy.

Also the "Batgirl Returns" daydream was LONG before she ever even knew who Batman was. A kid with a crush doesn't mean anything. I've had crushes on a lot of girls, but those feelings vanished when I met them and found I really didn't "like" them that much after all.

Alex Weitzman

12-15-2006, 07:23 PM

But persuing Kathy Duquesne...? If Bruce had feelings for Barbara, he would've acted on them.

So that's a sign that Bruce sees Barbara as a physical conquest?

I don't know if it's you or me, but somebody's not getting something.

And don't say it's because of her "age." She couldn't have been any younger than Kathy.

I haven't been coming down especially hard on the age thing as some have, although I will say that there's a difference between Kathy and Babs in terms of perceived age. Bruce has only known Kathy as an "adult", in basic terms. While there's almost probably a significant age difference between Bruce and Kathy, they have only known each other as consenting adults. Compare that to Bruce and Barbara. While there may be a closeness in Babs and Kathy's ages (we do not know this for certain, BTW), Bruce knows Barbara from the years in which she would be identified as a child, or at least a minor. Like I said, it's entirely possible that Bruce knew Barbara during Dick's younger years, and we know he knows her during her undergraduate college years. It is, if not wholly immoral, at least really awkward.

As an analogy, I'll point out that I am 23 years old, and my little sister is 12. We have an difference of eleven years. Now let's skip forward thirteen years. I'm 36. I meet a 25-year-old woman and we fall in love. It's true that there's a significant age difference, but we did meet as consenting adults. Now rewind a bit and say I run into a 25-year-old woman who I knew as one of my sister's friends from seventh grade. It's not even remotely as okay, is it?

Also the "Batgirl Returns" daydream was LONG before she ever even knew who Batman was. A kid with a crush doesn't mean anything. I've had crushes on a lot of girls, but those feelings vanished when I met them and found I really didn't "like" them that much after all.

Barbara's opinion of Batman changed very little, if at all, after finding out that Bruce was under the cowl. And unlike your fantasy crushes, Batman was a figure in her life already by the time she started daydreaming, and through Batgirl she'd gotten even more permanent into his life.

There's nothing wrong with having a fantasy crush, for what it's worth. But it's folly to dismiss it as not being indicative of any actual intention, even if the conscious mind considers it futile and therefore harmless. If given the opportunity with any of my fantasy crushes (and presuming I don't get turned off by who they are after meeting them), my crush would easily be considered a definite link in the chain of actual expression of feelings. And since Barbara's crush was in no way abated after being taken into Batman's world, it can't be disregarded as being not an actual expression of her feelings.

Maxie Zeus

12-15-2006, 11:07 PM

Okay, I feel the need to jump in here because Barbara is my favorite bat-family member and I have a much more favorable view of her.

WE DO NOT KNOW THAT SHE DUMPED DICK

Any statements she made in "A Touch of Curare" are suspect, because she could've very easily been lying or misremembering. Clearly she WAS in fact lying, given the way she just dismissed a serious relationship as "puppy love."

When you look at the exchange in "A Touch of Curare," what Commissioner Babs says about her relationship with Dick is actually a little ambiguous. Here's the relevant part:

Terry: So, you and Dick Grayson, like, dated?

Commissioner Gordon: In college. Puppy love. Later on we just never talked about it.

Terry: People should communicate more.

Commissioner Gordon: Dick finally got fed up living in Batman’s shadow. [She strokes the edge of the coffee cup.] He decided to leave. He was hurt when I chose to stay behind, with Bruce.

She says she dated Dick when they were in college. Then she says that Dick finally left and was hurt when she stayed behind. She doesn't actually say that they were still dating when Dick left, and that she dumped him when he chose to leave. Her statement is perfectly consistent with what we've seen: Barbar and Dick dated. They stopped dating. Then Dick left and Barbara stayed behind.

So why was Dick "hurt" by her decision?

To answer that, you have to examine Dick's feelings, not Barbara's. There has been some analysis here of what Dick might have been feeling, but he's the one member of this trio who doesn't appear in the post-TNBA stories, who we never get to hear from. We can only speculate about what he might have been feeling based on what others say about him and how we imagine the character.

There are a couple of possibilities.

1. Dick did still have feelings for Barbara, but in typical hot-headed male fashion couldn't express them. Instead, he gave her a choice by leaving and seeing what she did. He was hurt when she didn't follow.

Points in favor of this hypothesis: You might think it consistent with the character, who has become very cold by the time of TNBA. And, especially after the flashback events of "Sins of the Father," he is more interested in what others do (will Barbara follow me?) than in what they say (how serious are her flirtations?).

Points against: It's highly speculative. And if he had feelings for her, why was he always so brusque with her in TNBA?

2. Dick wasn't "hurt" by the ending of his relationship with Barbara but by the fact that she deliberately chose to stay with a man (Bruce) who had come to be a rival. In fact, he might have been more hurt by the fact that she did not share his disillusionment with Batman.

Points in favor: Admits that the relationship is dead. Also, it's consistent with the view that Dick was more obsessed with showing up Bruce than with making and keeping positive relationships.

Points against: "Hurt" is a peculiar word to use to describe his feelings. "Angered" would be a better description.

3. Dick wasn't actually "hurt" by anything Barbara did, but it pleases Barbara's ego to think that he was. Barbara isn't consciously lying to anyone in "A Touch of Curare," but she is lying to herself.

Points in favor: Simplest hypothesis. Also, consistent with TOM's reading of the character ...

Points against: ... unless you don't like that reading of the character, in which case it's a point against the theory.

I have no solid intuitions myself.

* * * * *
No one, to my knowledge, has picked up on a very peculiar touch that appears in that coffee shop scene in "A Touch of Curare." Can you spot it?

Commissioner Gordon: On the street, it was like ballet. We were the perfect duo. But for Bruce—Batman—there was nothing but the street. Eventually, that gets old. Time comes when you gotta hang up the cape. But Bruce wouldn’t. Or couldn’t. So I left. And never looked back.

[Gordon slips a card into a payment pad, which reads “PAID.” Then she rises and takes up her purse.]

Commissioner Gordon: No, I don’t hate him. I hate what he’s become. Such a great man. So alone. (As she exits) Coffee’s on me, kid.

There's that obtrusive insert of the payment pad reading "PAID." Why is that in there? It's stupid to show that she's paid for the meal, especially as she says immediately afterward that she's paid for it. The fact that she paid for the meal is a nice character touch, but it's clumsy to emphasize it with the insert.

So I can read it only as an editorial comment: not an assertion of Barbara's but an assertion by the writer/director/producers. They are asserting that Barbara has "paid" for something other than the meal: presumably, she has paid for something that was talked about over that coffee.

Does anyone else think that this is the episode's way of saying that she has made mistakes in the past but that she has finally paid for them?

(TOM won't like it, because she seems to think that Commissioner Babs is an even bigger screw up than Batgirl. :D)

Alex Weitzman

12-15-2006, 11:30 PM

Does anyone else think that this is the episode's way of saying that she has made mistakes in the past but that she has finally paid for them?

Doesn't that seem a little awkward, since this scene is really our introduction to the mistake?

Antiyonder

12-15-2006, 11:33 PM

Does anyone else think that this is the episode's way of saying that she has made mistakes in the past but that she has finally paid for them?

(TOM won't like it, because she seems to think that Commissioner Babs is an even bigger screw up than Batgirl. :D)

Well, as TOM wass also stated, in "Eyewitness" Barbara was quick to believe Terry was guilty of murder. Three things to consider (again as stated by TOM):

1. Did she forget from her experience from Over The Edge, in which she was victimed to an illusion?

2. If it was her husband or a favorite officer that was framed she would move Heaven and Earth to be sure either of them was innocent or guilty.

3. Even when Gotham believed Batman to be responsible for murders in Mask Of The Phantasm, James refused to give in to that belief and had no part in the manhunt.

So, it seemed like Barbara's actions were more due to her personal feelings (Since Terry did bust up a sting). She was right to be upset, but personal feelings have no place on the job.

Donomark

12-16-2006, 01:04 AM

The thing that really makes this whole Barbara thing a mystery is that besides a very few slew of P.O.V episodes about her, we don't really know what makes her tick. It's been said before, but out of all of the Gotham Knights, she has the, for a lack of a better term, worst case for fighting crime. Now she didn't have to have her father die (which does bring up an interesting question as to what happened to the animated Mrs. Gordon) but are we really supposed to just assume that her lust for adventure and Batman drove her to become Batgirl on a full time basis? Then again, it would appear that her day-to-day life at the Police station wasn't as bad as the two Robins. We've all seen the negative aspects to the life of Bruce Wayne and his wards. Either they miss a date, can't get work/homework done, or just screw up their reputation. Even though it can be seen as Batgirl replacing Robin's side after the change from The Adventures of Batman and Robin to The New Adventures of Batman, we were never shown Barbara's life outside of the cape and cowl, and it's downsides.

Also, point out the fact that she may not have too much problems with her secret identity. Of course in Batman Beyond she did, but that was after a long period of supposed soul searching. It's been said that the original Commisioner Gordon knew who Batgirl was. How? Well, it's not that hard. Tim Drake, and before him, Dick Grayson both tried to keep their I.D.s secret by messing up their hair and wearing masks with lenses in them Batgirl's cowl doesn't have any lenses in them. Even after she became Batman's main partner, she could have easily had her costume re-fitted. Plus, her eye-cut outs are pretty large and with the lower half of her face showing and, to quote Alex Ross, "...the obviousness of her red hair...", it wasn't hard to put two and two together after, let's say, Barbara leaves the Police Station for a few hours, while the Batsignal flashes in the sky, and Batgirl is with Batman to answer it. It's like figuring out who Birdgirl is. So maybe, Barbara has a subconcious desire not to have her I.D. a secret. Of course, her I.D. being known would sooner or later match up with Bruce Wayne if she was having a relationship with him, public or not.

Now in Over The Edge, her I.D. is found out and so is Bruce's. But the point of that is to illustrate what her father would assume had she died while keeping her I.D. a secret. The drama that follows is an obvious after-effect. But if she didn't have a secret I.D., or have to keep one for Batman's sake, she could be more open with a lot of things, like say...a certain crush on a certain crime-fighter/Boy Billionaire. Of course, this is all speculation.

Another thing that puzzles me is the fact that the affair referenced in BB had to have happened sometime after The Batman/Superman Adventures. Because Bruce Wayne goes through three serious romances around that timeline. Lois Lane, Susan...Seaweed, and Kathy Duquense. And that doesn't even include Wonder Woman, whch whatever was going on between those two has been stated to have happened before ROTJ. Of course, Duquense shouldn't count because apparantly whatever Barbara thought was going on between her and Bruce was referenced before MOTB's ending. But still, in Chemistry, she doesn't seem to care that her crime-fighting partner who is also her daydream crush is getting married after a few weeks of courtship. With the quick and easy amount of time it took for Bruce to marry Susan, you'd think Barbara would wonder if there was something wrong with herself or something. Also, note how she seems to stare at Bruce and Susan at the wedding party before Dick speaks. At first glance, she seems to be all "HOW ROMANTIC!". But after this whole debate, I can't help but interpret her staring and imagining herself being married to Bruce. So she may have been still heavily interested in him, but not only did she go to his wedding, but she didn't even question on how Bruce could make such a life-changing decison withing three weeks. She just takes him at his word!

Maxie Zeus

12-17-2006, 01:33 AM

Doesn't that seem a little awkward, since this scene is really our introduction to the mistake?

Well, if it's only the "introduction" to it, then you'd have to say that its exposition, development and conclusion can only show up in other episodes. This implies either that Batman Beyond needed to devote a lot more time to telling us about Barbara Gordon's past, or that the info given in that scene is just a dangly bit that could or should have been snipped off. Neither seems very plausible or welcome.

No, the scene is entirely self-contained: it's the introducion, exposition and conclusion, which is why an editorial comment is neither out of place nor awkward. And such a comment would be a way of reinforcing the point: "Don't look for anymore about this, folks," it says, "because we're not only giving you all the info you're going to get, we're also telling you that it's all paid and played out." And, in fact, we don't ever really hear about it again.

Livy1213

12-17-2006, 12:28 PM

And, in fact, we don't ever really hear about it again.
Well, it's sort of brought up again in Out of the Past but that's minor.

Donomark

12-18-2006, 04:26 PM

I call bump

The Old Maid

12-18-2006, 06:22 PM

That said, these new sections signify to me that I've come across as more negative than I expected to. I say that due to being quoted twice as an "anti-Gnostic fan". (For the sake of my own purposes and sanity, I will transmute the term Bat-Gnostic into Bruce/Barbara shipper, which essentially seems to be the same thing.) Perhaps it is inevitable that this should have happened: in the process of discussing this one topic so much - Bruce and Barbara hooking up - all of my comments on Barbara are related to it and thusly reflect just this one topic.

Well, yes, I quoted a lot of people. (There were a lot of sigworthy quotes on the boards.) But both the quotes I appropriated from you directly referenced Barbara's career (as a "fan" allegedly taking a shortcut to power, and Barbara's something-to-prove attitude when she thinks Terry is taking the same shortcut). Neither were "romance" quotes.

Also, I used "Bat Gnostic" and "Anti-gnostic" as shorthand for "viewers who see the Truth of the relationship, hidden but coded into the series, in a way that [in the opinion of practitioners] anyone who reads the series with an open mind would come to the same conclusion," -- versus People Who Are Particularly Tenacious at Challenging That Methodology. I'd say anti-gnostics aren't quite "debunkers," but they tend to pop more birthday balloons than the "agnostics" or "moderates." A lot of people in favor of the Bruce/Barbara affair are Gnostic; some are "agnostic;" and some are "moderates." Where these factions differ is in the questions of whether: 1) the characters made a mistake; 2) if so, which one; 3) what does it add to the mythos ; 4) did the writers make a mistake.

People who hate the whole thing, OTOH, are just called People Who Hate The Whole Thing.

No one, to my knowledge, has picked up on a very peculiar touch that appears in that coffee shop scene in "A Touch of Curare"

[snip]

There's that obtrusive insert of the payment pad reading "PAID." Why is that in there? It's stupid to show that she's paid for the meal, especially as she says immediately afterward that she's paid for it. The fact that she paid for the meal is a nice character touch, but it's clumsy to emphasize it with the insert.

So I can read it only as an editorial comment: not an assertion of Barbara's but an assertion by the writer/director/producers. They are asserting that Barbara has "paid" for something other than the meal: presumably, she has paid for something that was talked about over that coffee.

Does anyone else think that this is the episode's way of saying that she has made mistakes in the past but that she has finally paid for them?

(TOM won't like it, because she seems to think that Commissioner Babs is an even bigger screw up than Batgirl. :D)

I neither like nor dislike, but that's because I hesitate to endorse whether there's enough "there" there. In "Batman Beyond," characters demonstrate they have "paid" by demonstrating character "tics." Old Man Wayne broods in a haunted house. Tim Drake is twitchy. Melanie Walker alternates between twitchy, brazen, cowardly, and "weasel." Same for Derek Powers as Season One progresses. Terry, who has a history as a weasel, becomes a weasel when a figure from his past gets too pushy (Dana, Sean Miller, "Big Time" Bigelow). Barbara has strong emotions and attitudes, but there aren't any tics, phobias (or episodes) suggestive of lessons learned, or failed to learn, or even learned to avoid.

Clumsiness is a possibility. Did they put a scene in the storyboard and forget they had a line in the script that would serve the same purpose, or vice versa? BTAS and JL got repetitive in early episodes. "Beyond" in particular has a minor obsession with showing the audience that, yes, this is the future, by repeatedly telling the audience that the monetary system operates with cards called "credits." Every time a character buys something ("Plague," "Once Burned," etc.), the episode goes out of its way to show us the cards, mention that they are called "credits," and then shows people using them. "ATOC" is the first time (? I think) we see money change hands in the series, so it's possible that's all it was.

If there's an editorial comment in the duplication, it's so subtle as to qualify as "there is such a thing as too subtle." Could just be a variation on the way that the Timmverse "On Leather Wings" spent a luxurious 20 seconds to show us the Batmobile, or the way that the Matsudaverse "The Batwave" signal has to fill up the TV screen every time the alarm rings.

CBright7831

12-18-2006, 06:54 PM

Can't we just say this?

- Barbara had feelings for Batman but still liked Dick
- Barbara and Dick engaged in a relationship. They probably gave up their virignity to each other.
- Dick finds out she's Batgirl, gets pissed, and ends his tenure as Robin
- Barbara gains more feelings for Batman/Bruce
- Dick returns and Barbara tries to get the relationship going again and it doesn't happen
- Dick leaves Gotham
- Barbara gains more feelings for Bruce and starts a flirtation with him which makes him uncomfortable
- The events of the ROTJ flashback happen and traumatize everyone involved (Bruce, Barbara, Tim)
- Bruce and Barbara engage in a sexual relationship (yeah they did it - Bruce gets Dick Grayon's sloppy seconds) and they continue to fight crime
- Barbara gets shot
- Barbara tries to get Bruce to settle down but Bruce doesn't want to
- Barbara gives up being Batgirl and leaves Bruce

This is actually sort of fun to think about.

Donomark

12-18-2006, 11:26 PM

Well I think that it would indeed be most plausible for whatever relationship to have happened between Bruce and Barbara to have happened after Tim Drake left Wayne Manor after the ROTJ flashback scenario. By then Dick's gone. Tim's gone, so there's no need to worry on how such a relationship between a "father figure" and "big sister" will affect him. Batman's worst enemy is dead, and Bruce at that point in time probably was never as emotionally vunerable as he was then. Just sayin'.:shrug:

Alex Weitzman

12-19-2006, 11:14 AM

No, the scene is entirely self-contained: it's the introducion, exposition and conclusion, which is why an editorial comment is neither out of place nor awkward. And such a comment would be a way of reinforcing the point: "Don't look for anymore about this, folks," it says, "because we're not only giving you all the info you're going to get, we're also telling you that it's all paid and played out." And, in fact, we don't ever really hear about it again.

Perhaps. I can't see my way to arguing it; there doesn't seem to be any evidence against this perception. I guess my only objections would be the one that TOM mentioned - such a thing as too subtle and all that - and also that I personally bristle at the idea that Barbara Beyond has entirely compensated for the mistakes of the past with the person she became in the future. :D

Well, yes, I quoted a lot of people. (There were a lot of sigworthy quotes on the boards.) But both the quotes I appropriated from you directly referenced Barbara's career (as a "fan" allegedly taking a shortcut to power, and Barbara's something-to-prove attitude when she thinks Terry is taking the same shortcut). Neither were "romance" quotes.

Also, I used "Bat Gnostic" and "Anti-gnostic" as shorthand for "viewers who see the Truth of the relationship, hidden but coded into the series, in a way that [in the opinion of practitioners] anyone who reads the series with an open mind would come to the same conclusion," -- versus People Who Are Particularly Tenacious at Challenging That Methodology. I'd say anti-gnostics aren't quite "debunkers," but they tend to pop more birthday balloons than the "agnostics" or "moderates." A lot of people in favor of the Bruce/Barbara affair are Gnostic; some are "agnostic;" and some are "moderates." Where these factions differ is in the questions of whether: 1) the characters made a mistake; 2) if so, which one; 3) what does it add to the mythos ; 4) did the writers make a mistake.

People who hate the whole thing, OTOH, are just called People Who Hate The Whole Thing.

Fair enough, and I entirely appreciate your use of the quotes in the essay as they were very well-applied. My commentary was more in response to myself than to you, as I realized that I might have come across the wrong way.

Out of curiosity, what do you think about the good points I listed for Barbara? I'd be intrigued to see what you agree and disagree with.

G. Wen

12-28-2006, 05:00 PM

1. Please endorse at least one of the following statements. If none of them reflect your beliefs, state your preferred option.
b. I accept the producers’ word that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne had a relationship and their characterization of it as “wrong.” I further accept that all the evidence in the series supports their characterization of what happened.

2. What exactly is Dick to Bruce? And don't say "his ward," because that's a legal term. In emotional bonds, what are they? What, if any, are Bruce/Batman's obligations to Dick?
I don’t think he’s Dick’s father figure. I don’t know why, but Bruce doesn’t give the fatherly vibe, whatever that means and everything that means. He’s more of a godparent/sensei type person. He’s responsible for Dick’s welfare, and he sees to it, as best he can, that Dick gets the best life possible. However, maybe because Bruce’s own childhood ended so abruptly, he didn’t give Dick the best childhood possible. He didn’t guide Dick like a father, but trained Dick as the stern but fair sensei. He made sure Dick grew up into a responsible (albeit dysfunctional) adult through his training as Robin.

3. If you see Bruce and Dick as parent-and-child, would you be okay with Barb's behavior if she had been a man who dated daughter then mother? If you see Bruce and Dick as brothers, would you be okay with it if Barb was a man who dated a younger sister then her older sister?
Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! :P I’ve never seen Bruce and Dick’s relationship as parent/child, or brother/brother. I don’t think Barb did anything wrong to Dick; by the time she got involved with Bruce, they were long over. I don’t think Barb got together with Bruce to spite Dick either. I don’t think Barb made a wise choice in regards to her life, though.

4. If Dick Grayson had never existed, would it change your opinion of the proposed Bruce/Barbara affair?
Oooh, that’s a toughie. I always thought the relationship was wrong not because of Dick, but because she should’ve known Batman better. Why would anyone get involved with someone that dysfunctional? She shouldn’t have let her hormones made that decision.

5. Do you think the animated James Gordon knows Batman's identity? Do you believe this knowledge (or lack of knowledge) was a factor in Jim's demonstrated preference for Dick Grayson as his daughter's suitor?
I don’t know. Jim liked Dick because he’s a nice boy, has no criminal records, goes to college, etc. You know, parents like this kind of stuff. I have no idea how to factor the Robin identity into this, because I honestly don’t know if he knows about Batman’s identity or not. I mean, he’s not stupid (that’s Bullock’s role) but he’s not letting on.

However, I don’t think Barb left Dick because he’s nice a.k.a. boring. After all, he’s Robin, and then the edgier Nightwing. Dick left Barb when she went on her 1st mission with Batman.

6. What exactly is James Gordon to the Batman? What, if any, obligations does Batman have to him?
Mutual soldiers fighting for the same ideals. Can a soldier date another soldier’s daughter without his permission? Yes.

7. Although Barbara obviously misread her father's feelings and beliefs in TNBA's "Over The Edge," she's correct that her choices could cost him his career. What, if any, are her obligations to him?
She’s a good daughter. She has no criminal record. She finished her schooling. Can she have a secret life that may potentially cause Jim his career? This gets tricky. Barb is in the Batfamily for 2 reasons: she has seen her noble father’s quest for justice, and being around such a positive influence, has decided she too will go on the quest in the guise of Batgirl. In which case, one might say it’s O.K., because she is continuing her father’s ideal, but in her own form. Of course, she’s also in it because it’s fun (because it’s dangerous and illegal), so… Mixed motives make things sooooo complicated…

8. What is Alfred’s relation to Bruce Wayne/Batman? To Dick Grayson? To Barbara Gordon?
Alfred was never Batman’s father figure. He never disciplined him. He’s Bruce’s nanny. He cared for Bruce when his parents weren’t around. He made sure Bruce grew up in comfort. He looked after his welfare. He taught him right from wrong. He’s Dick’s nanny for the same reasons. I don’t think he’s anything to Barb. Barb had her dad. Barb didn’t live at Wayne Manor. Barb barely interacted with him.
9. Do you believe that Barbara Gordon’s life, as it plays out through Batman Beyond, is the best life that she could reasonably hope for?
No.

If your answer to Question 9 was “No,” answer to the following two-part question:

10(a). Please choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion would be an aspect of her optimal life. Note that several combinations of answers are possible. Consider the possible combinations carefully.
m. Other (please describe).
We all make bad decisions. We all learn from our mistakes. However, despite our mistakes, we don’t let that poison our later existence. I think Barb doesn’t have the best life in BB not because of the decisions she’s made, but because she won’t get over her grudges. It makes her snappy.

10(b). Do you believe that Barbara Gordon, looking back on her life, would regard your choice for her life as the optimal one, or do you think she would fail to recognize that the life you chose for her would be the best one she could have had? Explain.
She fails to recognize there’s no point in living in regret. (I don’t know what to call it. I don’t think it’s regret, but her past decisions influence too much of her negative future attitudes.)

11. Do you believe that the elderly Barbara Gordon regards her life as the best one she could have led?
She’s happy with Sam. She kisses him, goes on romantic walks with him, protects him herself when he’s in danger, etc. She’s proud as commish; even has daddy’s picture on her desk. She’s happy she got out of the drama with Batman. I think she considers it as one of the better points in her life.

12. If your answer to Question 11 was “No” and your answer to Question 10(b) was “She would not choose the life I think optimal for her,” choose one or more of the following options that in your opinion Barbara Gordon would have preferred to see come to pass.
k. Barbara Gordon never became Batgirl.
This quote is from Inque:
Barb: I heard you wrangled in a new errand boy.
Bruce: I never wrangled anyone in. You all came to me.
Barb: Just once, don’t you think you should try talking someone out of it?
Bruce: Would it have worked for you?

13. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman before she first donned the Batgirl costume (pre-“Shadow of the Bat”)
I can’t remember (so embarrassed).

14. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she donned the Batgirl costume but before she joined the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree.
That fantasy dream sequence she had in the “Return of Batgirl”.

15. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she joined the Bat family.
a. Strongly agree.
Mystery of Batwoman phone conversation.

16. Barbara Gordon harbored romantic feelings for Batman after she left the Bat family.
d. Strongly disagree.
Too bitter. Still too bitter after all those years into BB.

17. Barbara Gordon continues to harbor romantic feelings for Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond.
d. Strongly disagree.
Why would she have married Sam? Does she seem like one to settle?

18. Barbara Gordon never harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
Disagree.
Barb says it’s puppy love, but at one point, they were seriously committed to each other. It’s cute to think that your 1st love turns into your life partner, but that rarely happens, even when the guy’s a great catch. She had a relationship, it ended. It happens.

Would she have married Dick if she never became Batgirl? That’s a toughie. I believe part of who we end up marrying depends on the situation, so she may have. Does that mean Dick is her soul mate? I know I’ll get flamed for this one, but I don’t believe in soul mates, just people who are highly compatible with each other. So, with the decisions Barb went through with in the Timmverse, Sam turned out more compatible than Dick.

19. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after Dick quit the Bat family.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.
Hard to tell exactly when they evaporated.

20. Barbara Gordon once harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson, but they evaporated after he returned as Nightwing.
f. There is insufficient evidence to decide.
Again, hard to tell exactly when they evaporated.

21. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson at one time, but they eventually evaporated.
b. Agree
Read the explanation on question 18.

22. Barbara Gordon never lost her strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson.
d. Strongly disagree.
Read the explanation on question 18.

23. Barbara Gordon harbored strong romantic feelings for Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne simultaneously.
Disagree.
She was once romantic with Dick while she had a crush on Batman.

24. Do you believe it is possible for two people to be in “puppy love” even when they are old enough to form mature relationships? Explain.
Yes. It’s possible to have crushes after high school. I think Barb, when looking back, realize Dick wasn’t the love of her life because now she’s with Sam. You don’t necessarily marry the 1st person you’re serious with.

Can Barb love Dick while crushing on Batman? Yes. A crush is just a physical attraction. You can still find other people sexually appealing even if you’re in a committed relationship. However, if you act out on those feelings…

If you believe that Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne were ever romantically linked, answer the following multi-part question.

25(a). Relationships that fail to become permanent can be characterized as having an inauguration point, a period of intensification, a peak, a down slope, and a termination. Where in the following timeline would you place (i) the inauguration point, (ii) the peak, and (iii) the termination point of the Barbara/Bruce relationship?
d. Between Return of the Joker and Batman Beyond.
Bruce was trying to avoid Barb in the Mystery of Batwoman. So whatever happened, happened after, even if Barb wanted it to happen sooner.

25(b). Do you believe that Tim Drake and Alfred ever knew that Barbara and Bruce were romantically linked?
Alfred, yes, unless he died before it happened. Tim, yes, unless he left before it happened. It’s hard to keep secrets from people you live with.

25(c). If you believe that the relationship had yet to begin at the time of Mystery of the Batwoman, what do you think of Bruce’s reaction to Barbara’s phone call; of Tim’s reaction; of Alfred’s reaction? What is your opinion of Barbara’s behavior on the phone?
Bruce didn’t want a relationship with Barb at that time. Both Alfred and Tim knew this. Tim didn’t want any of that adult mess. Alfred probably (for whatever reason) thought it inappropriate for Barb and Bruce to get together. So he applauds his avoidance. It’s not the most mature way to do it, but what do you expect from a group of guys?

As for Barb, can we say “desperate”? I guess she was trying to be beguiling, but it didn’t work.

25(g). Who do you think ended the relationship? Do you think it was a mutual decision?
I think they both ended it on a sour note. Barb got weary and wanted off the streets. Bruce didn’t. Or couldn’t. So she left.

25(h). If the decision to end the relationship was mutual or was forced by Bruce, how do you interpret Commissioner Gordon’s claim that she ended it?
I don’t remember too clearly, but I think she said she left, which means she literally left crusading and got on with the rest of her life; she’s not necessarily saying, “Brucie, baby, I’m dumpin’ ya’ and I said it FIRST!”

25(i). Do you believe Dick Grayson ever found out about the relationship between Barbara and Bruce? If so, do you think it was before, during, or after it occurred? How do you think that knowledge (if he had it) affected his relationship with Barbara and Bruce? Do you think the two of them cared what he thought?
I believe Barb told Terry Dick got angry when she stayed behind, as Bruce’s sidekick and significant other. So this would be during the relationship. I think he’s sour that Barb chose to support Bruce’s campaign, and to stay as his gf as well just adds insult to injury. Do the 2 of them care what he thought? That’s hard to tell. I know Bruce would’ve. He cares for all his Robins, even after they leave the nest. I think he tried to make things work, but Dick wouldn’t have any of it. Technically, Bruce didn’t do anything wrong because Barb and Dick were already long over.

25(j). Do you think Jim Gordon knew the relationship between Bruce and Barbara?
Yes, unless he’s already dead at the time. Hard to keep this thing a secret.

27. Do you think that Bruce Wayne, psychologically, has a strong “seducer” streak in his personality? Do you think such an aspect of his personality could have played a part in whatever happened between him and Barbara?
Yes and yes. Bruce Wayne, whether intended or not, is a seducer because he’s rich, single, and handsome. And that’s all some bimbos need. Batman is a seducer, whether intended or not, because he’s a strong paternal figure and because he’s tall, dark, and mysterious. Do I think Batman ever seduced any of his Batfamily members? No. They all came to him. He tried to hide the secret from Dick, but eventually let him in on it because Dick needed a paternal figure. Tim literally stole the Robin suit. Barb became Batgirl on her own. Terry stumbled upon the suit, and then stole it later. They all came to Batman.

Batman got Barb’s attention because he’s tall, dark, and mysterious. Barb eventually totally fell for Bruce/Batman because she worked closely with him in stressful situations. Their doomed romance has more to do with the situation than Bruce’s seductive powers.

Extra Credit: Compose a short biographical note about Barbara Gordon that uses your answers above to sketch the course of her life as Batgirl and beyond, paying close attention to the nature and circumstances of her relationship with Bruce Wayne and its effect on her life.
Barb has a strong sense of duty and service, which she learned from her father. She also has a wild streak. She’s like a young soldier, going off to war to fight for something she believes in and for the adventure. However, wars can disillusion people, which is what I think happened to Barb. Barb fell for the strong, brave commanding officer (Batman). Here’s the question: when Barb got together w/ Bruce/Batman, did she start a relationship with Batman or Bruce? I think she wasn’t too clear on that when it happened. However, when 2 people work in stressful jobs and they only have each other, it’s not surprising that a strong emotional and sometimes romantic bond develops.

O.K., so here’s the tough question: what does Barb look for in a guy? Is it money? No! If that were the case, she would’ve been fantasizing about Bruce instead of Batman, and in her old age, she would’ve married Derek Powers instead of D.A. Sam Young (now that would be wrong!). Is it the bad boy appeal? After all, who doesn’t like them tall, dark, and mysterious? Yes, she has weakness for baddies. Why else would she fantasize about Batman? But that’s not the main reason. Nightwing is the badder boy, and she only lightly flirted (and one can easily argue that she wasn’t flirting) with him. She didn’t seem desperate to attract him. What Batman, Dick, and Sam have in common is a strong sense of justice, much like her father. Although the bad boy image has its glamour, it’s extra and unnecessary. Unfortunately, she didn’t figure this out until later in life.

Well, that’s my answer, and many of them changed quite a bit sense the last time I posted on this subject. I guess my interpretations say more about me than about the characters. J Anyways, my friend says they got together because Static hooked them up. :P

The Old Maid

01-28-2007, 05:19 PM

Sorry for the delay (logon problems on this end). So where were we?

Originally posted by Alex Weitzman

Out of curiosity, what do you think about the good points I listed for Barbara? I’d be intrigued to see what you agree and disagree with.

In roughly mirrored order:

I still think of the whole Bruce/Barbara/Dick affair as being mostly Barbara's mistake. I also consider myself to be more in the group of people delighted by the developments. As I've said elsewhere, torridity is not automatically invalid in storytelling, and if anything it creates more compelling conflict when done right.

[snip]

We know from elsewhere that b.t. has disdain for generic happy-ending marriages for superheroes, having bashed both Lois & Clark and Peter & MJ on this board. And he's right; that's the END of the story, so if you expect to keep going, you don't skip to the end. You twist it up more. And even with my personal and moral objection to Barbara in this romantic triangle, it's incredibly easy to both dislike the actions of a character you like in the world of Batman, where villains gain our sympathy and enjoyment all the time while doing things we easily recognize as wrong and/or unpleasant.

It *is* hard to keep ahead of an audience, and I agree that a happy ending is, well, an *ending*.

At the same time, an unhappy ending often becomes a crutch. (Consider how often novice writers paint a character into a corner, then kill off the character so they don’t have to solve the problem.) The Bat-triangle is a crutch; at least, I think so. (Okay, so it’s a crutch decorated with neon lights, hydraulics, and an air horn.)

There's nothing wrong with having a fantasy crush, for what it's worth. But it's folly to dismiss it as not being indicative of any actual intention, even if the conscious mind considers it futile and therefore harmless. If given the opportunity with any of my fantasy crushes (and presuming I don't get turned off by who they are after meeting them), my crush would easily be considered a definite link in the chain of actual expression of feelings. And since Barbara's crush was in no way abated after being taken into Batman's world, it can't be disregarded as being not an actual expression of her feelings.

Good point. Still, in the end, without a re-enactment we don’t actually know which one played “Dumb” and which one played “Dumber”. In a way, what we are doing is “casting” either one as either one, then filming it both ways.

The performers.

Agreed that Gilbert and Bergman’s performances are strong and lifelike, but “petulant.” It suits the character, though, since that’s the character’s mindset at the time. Tara Strong has more of a classic “cartoon” voice—not a bad thing, just higher and younger—to portray a character in a more steady-state existence. (Remember, part of the reason the petulance disappears is that one reason for it, her isolation, disappears.)

As for Angie Harmon, if we’d started Batman Beyond with her voice, we’d assume it was an older Strong. Decent, but, like Strong, not necessarily challenged by the script material. (Gordon had been largely tamed at that point.) Instead we started with Stockard Channing, who did a good job of capturing the Commissioner’s abrasiveness and suspiciousness. I don’t think that we’d regard Channing as an older Gilbert, though.

Barbara as daughter.

The question of how Barbara felt about her father has been raised, especially in terms of Barbara Beyond in Eyewitness [sic] when she says, "I'm not my father." That's the line that brings up the question about how she felt about her dad and his methods.

The episode was “ATOC,” which only really matters because Barbara and Terry were having their first dust-up at the time (rather than their fourth or fifth, which is what “Eyewitness” was).

And focusing on that [“I’m not my father”] line ignores way more evidence of her ironclad love for the elder Gordon. She got into this whole business primarily because of how much she was Daddy's girl.

Indeed. But I don’t think that asking why Commissioner Barbara said those words constitutes ignoring her love for him. At some point Barbara has learned to separate her love for her father with her professional opinion of his actions. That’s a distinction the younger Barbara wasn’t able to make. But because it’s such a loaded statement, it’s also one the older Barbara probably shouldn’t have made until the creative team were prepared to explore it.

Originally posted by The Guitar Slayer

She's trying to fulfill any daughter's obligations to her father—what he has asked of her. Jim Gordon more or less asked her to take care of herself, be happy, and make him proud. She tries to take care of herself as well as the rest of the Bat family, is generally happy until we see her in BB, and she wants to make him proud by helping him save the city. She also loves Daddy no matter what. That's a debatable obligation, but she doesn't have a problem with it in any event.

[snip]

The Commish is a smart guy; he can probably deduce who Nightwing is, and, in part, why he left. Bruce has changed, Batman has changed, both for the darker. Dick has left to make his own life away from the Bat and his increasingly dark moods. James Gordon would rather his daughter leave him than to be part of Bruce Wayne's life, waiting for something that won't come from the playboy or the vigilante.

I’d say this comes closer to the situation. Jim does want his daughter to be happy. It’s just that, at this early point in their lives, neither Gordon knows how bad things are about to get. It’s speculation on our part that Jim would urge his daughter to leave Bruce/Batman. However we do know Jim would be quick to support her decision to terminate a bad relationship (whether professional or personal), and to comfort her.

Originally posted by Alex Weitzman

We've seen far worse follies borne of love in this series than Barbara's. And “Over the Edge” is, if nothing else, a dramatization of her fear that she's not even being fair enough with Jim Gordon even after all this constant and consistent showing of her devotion to him.

To some extent, Barbara indeed is asking whether she’s being fair to Jim. But it’s been said some time ago that “Over The Edge” also can be read as a story of how Barbara thinks other people see her. That element trivializes her fear, but that doesn’t necessarily make it an invalid interpretation. Commissioner Barbara grows up to care intensely about how others see her. To her mind, the return of Batman is almost a humiliation. It’s not unreasonable to wonder if there’s a connection to the way people used to see Jim. Has Barbara been influenced by the people who put down her father, or did she come to disagree with his choices on her own?

Barbara loves her dad. I still think it was the strongest and most real relationship in her life. But it’s a relationship that changed through the years. We never saw it grow or change. In the end we conclude that Barbara and Jim had a good relationship because that’s the last word we have on them. But it leaves us in the dark about why she spoke about him the way she did.

Barbara as Dick Grayson’s love interest.

I don't speak for everyone, or even everyone of my mindset, but I suspect that those of us who are mad at Barbara for dumping Dick feel that way because she was doing such a good job with him before. [snip] Barbara was enjoyable to watch in the emotional dance with Dick because she wins sympathies so easily with her honest yet fun approach to the dating scenario.

If I may, I’d like to try out a few thoughts I haven’t really heard voiced before. People tend to challenge “Old Wounds” because Dick’s rage seemed to appear ex nihilo for the sake of “drama.” They cite the fact that Robin’s rage against Bruce was seen first, last, and only in “Robin’s Reckoning,” an episode which ends with a heartwarming “awww” moment of peacemaking. As regarding Robin’s rage toward Batman, as a self-contained plot point, I agree the scenario is too hasty and underdeveloped.

But there’s a complication: Barbara gets involved. When it comes to Barbara, Dick has danced with rage elsewhere. It’s called Sub-Zero.

(And before I forget: Boyd Kirkland, if you’re reading this, did Victor Freeze select Barbara because he recognized her? That is, did Freeze figure that a police family would know and accept the risks of being public figures? Or did he just pick Barbara because all the other candidates were seniors with unusable organs or something?)

Both Victor Freeze (Sub-Zero) and Batman (“Old Wounds”) almost got Barbara killed. These weren’t hypothetical near-death experiences either. (I.e., “put on a clean costume because you could walk out that door and get hit by a bus.”) Freeze and Joker actively set out to kill her. They would have succeeded if not for the actions of the appalled young men who witnessed the attempts. The righteous wrath we applaud in Grayson’s pursuit of Victor Freeze becomes uncomfortable when directed at a fellow cape. We may wonder if the arguments should be separated, but to Grayson it’s “proof,” a link in his own personal chain.

Which brings up the question of what, exactly, Barbara was “doing so well” with him. No, she’s nobody’s shrink. (No matter how many times she volunteers.) Part of what makes Barbara attractive is the way Grayson sees her. I wouldn’t go so far as to say we see her solely through his eyes, but we see him paint an attractive picture that is attractive, in part, because of the way he visualizes her in it. Or, to put it another way, what do we know about either Dick-the-civilian or Barbara-the-civilian in “Old Wounds” other than the fact that he is her boyfriend?

For example, we never learned what Dick Grayson declared as a major. Was it a “civilian” major or a “work-related” major? (For all we know, he could have studied business to inherit Bruce’s company. He was Bruce’s only heir at the time.) Dick plans to get a job, but what kind of job? He plans to move, but where is he going? What city? (What country?) We do know that Dick graduated, and that he is independently wealthy. Yet even these details are almost throwaway lines compared to the way that Dick Grayson zeroes in on Barbara. His goal seems to be to get her hand first, and let the rest—buying a home (for the two of them), finding that first job—be influenced by the existing relationship between them.

At some point Dick seems to have started thinking of himself as Barbara’s boyfriend first, instead of “just” Robin. This indicates more than an entry into adulthood but a different perception of space/time. “Life-with-Barbara” is linear, whereas the entity “Robin” is trapped in the wheel of time, a construct of the perpetual Now. “Robin” has no human contact (other than villains and crimefighters), no interests, no goals, and no retirement except “death” (ex. Tim). So when Barbara follows Batman into harm’s way, it threatens the thing upon which civilian Dick Grayson’s energies are focused and centered. And it goes a long way toward explaining why Dick never entirely “gets over it.” Oh, he rejects the woman, whom he thinks has rejected him. But he returns to the cape, the snare from which he almost escaped, by becoming the perpetual Now entity called Nightwing. (I’m not sure we can compare it to Two Face reaching for Grace—only to have that trap destroy what little trust he had left—but if Dick heard the comparison he would say he could relate.)

Originally posted by Desdiablo

responsible for Dick’s welfare, and he sees to it, as best he can, that Dick gets the best life possible. However, maybe because Bruce’s own childhood ended so abruptly, he didn’t give Dick the best childhood possible. He didn’t guide Dick like a father, but trained Dick as the stern but fair sensei. He made sure Dick grew up into a responsible (albeit dysfunctional) adult through his training as Robin. Jim liked Dick because he’s a nice boy, has no criminal records, goes to college, etc. You know, parents like this kind of stuff.

That’s a good point, and it shows the difference between the man Dick presented to the two Gordons and the man he truly was. He wanted to become the man others see when they looked at him, but when he lost Barbara, he couldn’t do it anymore.

Is Dick’s love for Barbara an ideal? Or does he have specific familiarity with her nature, habits, hopes, and plans? (And if he knows things about her, then why don’t we?) Whatever the answer, it seems clear that Dick pinned all his hopes for a civilian future on Barbara. Isn’t that a tremendous burden to place upon one person? She didn’t know how deep his problems really go. In the interest of fairness, we have to ask whether he expected too much of her.

(This is independent of whether she expected too much of him, by expecting him to settle for the “spare boyfriend” position if “something better” came along.)

Until we see her seize an opportunistic position as Official-Sidekick-Batgirl, Barbara seems reliable and loving. But we don’t have to wait for the long silence of the Interregnum to wonder what “life experiences” Barbara is having in her theoretical “life.” Batgirl too has no interests, goals, human contact, or true “retirement”. Those qualities must come from Barbara-the-civilian. We don’t know Barbara’s college major either. We never learned what she was doing at Gotham State U. We don’t know when Dick and Barbara decided/felt they were in an actual relationship. And as we inquired during Batwoman, did Barbara ever, ever graduate? Basically, we conclude that she must have, because we hope that she must have. (We know she must have graduated from the police academy to become a policewoman, but that’s about it.)

When we lose the Dick/Barbara relationship, we lose a lot of Barbara’s sympathetic qualities, because they were intertwined with the sympathetic qualities that Dick (and the audience) hoped she had. Which is why I’ve suggested that if a character hasn’t had enough development as a solo character, putting her (usually, it’s a “her”) into a relationship is often a sign of desperation, not inspiration.

The exception is Sam Young. Here is Barbara’s “sympathetic, honest but fun” relationship of her age. She’s done with the “emotional rescue” relationships of her youth, relationships which paint as bleak a picture of her as they do of her old boyfriends. Finally Barbara has learned to respect someone who isn’t a cape and doesn’t want to be. He can cup her face in his hands, look deeply into her eyes, and tell her with heartfelt feeling, "You're being the Jerk At Work again." And she will take it. Part of the reason we miss the Dick/Barbara relationship was that there used to be a day when those two could say such things to each other. Sam Young is a good character; moreover, he's good for her. However Barbara needs to get along with more of the human race than just her husband. This really becomes a problem when Terry shows up.

Committed superhero.

For Barbara, the TNBA appearances are very much about quantity-over-quality.

Mostly, Barbara-as-Official-Batgirl was there for the duty of it all, and this is something that should not be ignored. She pursued the bad guys with just as much determination as Batman, and without the psychological hang-ups. Honest commitment to the good fight should be rewarded with our respect, and even if her later years seemed to bring out the overzealous flirt in her (Batwoman), this does not invalidate the good she's done. Just like Bruce hanging up his cowl in old age and snarling into a bitter old codger certainly doesn't invalidate his golden years.

As Worf once said, “You speak of glory, of birthright, of legends we will write. Yet in all you say, where are the words, Duty, Honor, Loyalty, without which a warrior is nothing.” Batgirl-the-sidekick (weakly) expresses both “mission statements.” She likes the job, the thrill, the freedom, but she’s not setting the world on fire, so to speak. We impute to her the duty, honor, and loyalty because she’s always there, plodding faithfully without deviation or complaint.

Barbara puts in the honorable duty, absolutely. But there’s a certain formulaic, paint-by-numbers lack of originality. Though given some sweet moves and an attention-getting wardrobe, Batgirl has almost as much in common with the faceless police in the background as with the star from whom she drew her name and likeness. Because Barbara isn’t supposed to be one of the faceless background characters, we expect distinctiveness. We expect her to set goals, to learn, or fail but learn from it, or even fail to learn. We expect her to have some human contact (even enemies count). As the Matsudaverse Batgirl zinged in “The Breakout,” there are “no props for bagging henchmen.” Yet that’s essentially all that the TNBA Barbara/Batgirl does.

Perhaps it’s no coincidence that the police in Batman Beyond are so faceless that we never meet even one of them or learn any of their names. In such a vacuum, Commissioner Barbara “pops” more. This becomes a substitute for developing her in her own right, much like The Affair becomes a substitute. But as we’ve seen, it means that, even 40-50 years later, Barbara still has no meaningful human contact outside the Bat-family themselves.

Her accomplishments as a crimefighter are lifesaving, heroic, and real. They’re just not especially memorable. Barbara’s in the position of all those heroic but faceless police officers who pull a thousand drunk drivers off a thousand roads before they cause a thousand accidents. It’s a holy work, but so anonymous. Wonder what happened to make Commissioner Barbara so possessive of her power and reputation.

Stern mother-figure.

Barbara Beyond gets a lot of my disdain, perhaps mostly due to the fact that she's the only Barbara we get who's actually done the sin as opposed to simply leading up to it. But while I won't retract the sentiment behind my referenced foul language directed at her, I will note that the character has two modes, and sometimes her appearances can be read either way. Sometimes Barbara Beyond is as inelegant as my earlier words were. But sometimes she comes across as the way I suspect she was really intended to: an authority figure for our young protagonist who has her legitimate concerns about his actions but simply takes them in stride. There are quite a few times that I think of Commissioner Barbara Gordon as being tough on Terry just to keep the boy honest, and sighs with a resigned smile as he goes off and does what he has to anyway. This is not all the time, and it depends on the episodes; arguably, the better ones usually feature the more sympathetic Barbara. But this is also something she deserves credit for, especially since I feel like this is the way she's supposed to really come across.

I think most of us would give credit for the idea and intention of Barbara as an authority figure trying to keep Terry honest. I just think the character failed to decisively establish herself as such. As another poster mentioned, Barbara needs someone to keep her honest too.

Originally posted by [B]Antiyonder

It seemed like Barbara's actions were more due to her personal feelings (since Terry did bust up a sting [in both “ATOC” and “Eyewitness”]). She was right to be upset, but personal feelings have no place on the job.

We’ve seen Sam Young stand up to her (notably in the park scene in “ATOC”), but he can’t “keep her honest” regarding things he doesn’t know. And again, it goes back to the idea that Barbara needs to be able to get along with more of the human race than just one person. (Okay, two people, if you count Tim.)

Do we mean that Barbara must be perfect? And does that mean a “perfect” parental figure would not be “tough” on Terry? No. It’s just that sometimes we forget that Barbara isn’t trying to teach Terry to survive, so much as to keep him alive until he obeys her urgings to quit the business. Terry is not a “wanted” child, and she makes no secret of it. She isn’t actually trying to help him improve, and in “ROTJ” she deliberately hinders his investigation.

I’d say Barbara’s better appearances are her shortest ones. In “Splicers” she stands between Terry and her husband; then she cautions Terry that capes don’t always get lucky. In “Revenant” she closes a public school on Terry’s recommendation but shoots him a glance that would barbecue him if he has wasted her time. In “Zeta” and “Return of the Joker” she makes plain that she will (finally!) feed Terry the information he needs, solely because she considers him the best of bad options. None of these appearances are flattering, but they can be considered words he needs to hear.

“Middling” episodes include “Black Out” and “Spellbound.” In “Black Out” Barbara asks Old Man Wayne why, just once, he doesn’t try talking someone out of the mission. (This is an interesting statement, coming from the acolyte who obeyed Bruce the longest but who never considered quitting as the Robins around her dropped like flies.) Barbara makes plain that she doesn’t want to meet Terry. In “Spellbound” she meets him anyway. At this point Terry doesn’t know that Barbara knows his identity—so her chilly “Stay out of trouble, kid” would seem, to him, to be aimed at his ex-con civilian persona. It’s a harsh reminder to Terry that people will never know the good he does as Batman. They might always see him as a weasel, as she does.

It’s her longer appearances that cripple her. The longer they are, the worse they tend to portray her. In “Babel” she tells Old Man Wayne to “Give Terry to me. I’ll think of something. I had some pretty good teachers, remember? (shortly) We’re trying. But we only have until midnight. What then?” Although Barbara never says the words Bruce says—whether Terry should give himself up to Shriek—she is the first person to imply that it might come to that. Well, we all know it could come to that. The question is why she wants to be the person with physical custody, the one who might “hand Terry over” herself. (What happened to that “plausible deniability” she had been so careful to cultivate?)

“Eyewitness,” of course, we know. Personal feelings on the job. “A Touch of Curare” tends to get mixed up with the Bruce/Barbara affair, but the episode’s colder undercurrents flow quite well without it. If the Bruce/Barbara relationship had never existed, it would not have made a difference in the fact that Barbara made no effort to get to know Terry as a person, except this one time because he got in her face. All he gets out of it is a gossip-fest. Juicy, but ultimately useless for building a relationship with the kid. She just doesn’t seem to want one. Her threatening to throw him in jail seems to have cured him of a desire to get to know her better, too.

Could the Commissioner Barbara character have excelled if no Bruce/Barbara relationship had ever existed? Oh sure. The ingredients are there: professional humiliation, bitterness over the fate of Tim, prejudice against Terry the ex-con, and her desire to protect herself and her husband from her quasi-resurrected past. (Interesting that she doesn’t give a fig about whether her past with Bruce-the-civilian might come back to haunt her marriage, but she flips when Batman-the-colleague saves Sam!) But, affair or no affair, the creative team shortchanged the older Barbara’s character. In a world where, all too often, a cape’s mistakes conveniently go away—Dick and Tim leave and take their suffering with them; Old Man Wayne is back in the game; Barbara’s shot to ribbons but she looks healthy now—it’s too bad the team didn’t spend more time on a character who is being forced (kicking and screaming) to face the consequences of her past. I’d say most people give credit for the concept, but the execution could have been better.

…

If by chance the Matsudaverse team reads Timmverse-related threads, they must have realized by now that they have a chance to surpass the Timmverse in this category: by building a better Barbara. They started with a few interesting ingredients. A young Barbara, whose father seems more interested in sending her to the Olympics than she is in participating. A character whose personality is revealed in little moments like failing Driver’s Ed or recognizing Jim “Broccoli” Gordon faster than the HARDAC counterpart. A character “born” with a “warm personal enemy” in the form of Pam/Poison Ivy. (Unfortunately, they seem to have gotten away from that aspect of Barbara’s character. Characters need warm personal enemies!) And everyone who has seen the Matsudaverse Oracle has fairly drooled over her. (This may be mostly fan-worship, as she wasn’t around long enough to do anything new.)

There are weak areas too. The Matsudaverse needs to do more to convince the audience that Barbara’s time as Batgirl is different from the passing fads of her life. Jim Gordon makes a good point: this Barbara is easily influenced by her companions. Jim liked the idea of Barbara in the Olympics, so she took gymnastics training. “Betty” liked beekeeping, so Barbara did too. Pamela Isley liked eco-activism, so Barbara did too. Batman dresses up and fights crime, so Barbara does too. Please explore this phenomenon. Jim seems to be in the show primarily to feed Barbara tips on the next big story; please *fix* this phenomenon. And finally, the new show needs to do a better job exploring why Batman has gone back on the promise he made to Jim “to make this city a safe place for [Jim’s] daughter to grow up.” (Putting supervillains in her face hardly qualifies as keeping this promise! Bonus points for challenging any double standard involving Robin’s safety.)

…

I’ve brought you a long way to go back to a short slogan: Aunt May Parker’s definition of a hero.

Too few characters out there, like that, courageous, self-sacrificing people, setting an example for all of us.

I believe there’s a hero in all of us, that keeps us honest, gives us strength, makes us noble, and finally allows us to die with pride … even though sometimes we have to be steady, and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams.

Which is why I agree with Alex’s observation that

I wouldn't tell her how I feel (so to speak, that is) if I didn't care. You don't see me going around trying to point out Derek Powers' shortcomings.

With Barbara we can see the areas in which she could be tweaked … okay, Totally Revamped … and it seems so exasperating that the creative team doesn’t see things we think are obvious. Barbara is always courageous; usually self-sacrificing; always setting an example for all of us. (Well, technically, sometimes she sets a good example, and sometimes she serves as a bad one, as a warning to the rest of us.) Barbara’s inner hero gives her strength, makes her noble (sometimes), definitely allows her to die with pride—but doesn’t always make her steady or ask her to give up a dream. Sometimes the restriction chafes her. Probably the biggest question in the above is, Does Barbara’s inner hero keep her honest. A lot of the non-affair debate topics return to that particular question. Unfortunately the creative team consistently did very little with this topic, or indeed with anything particularly “deep” or choice-driven. All too often Barbara’s just sort of “there.” She doesn’t even have any “wisemen” (or –women”) to guide her. If we can’t see her journey, we can’t measure her against herself, only against others. That kind of subtext tends not to end well. We needed to see her build a better Barbara, not an imitation of someone else.

*whew* How was that? :)

Alex Weitzman

02-03-2007, 11:38 PM

And several days later, I get back to the topic. :p

It *is* hard to keep ahead of an audience, and I agree that a happy ending is, well, an *ending*.

At the same time, an unhappy ending often becomes a crutch. (Consider how often novice writers paint a character into a corner, then kill off the character so they don’t have to solve the problem.) The Bat-triangle is a crutch; at least, I think so. (Okay, so it’s a crutch decorated with neon lights, hydraulics, and an air horn.)

I'd argue the triangle would only be a crutch if it became an overly-accessed fallback for the writers/directors of TimmCo when they can't think of other things to do with the characters. To me, that's the definition of a crutch. And fact is, TimmCo too rarely brought the triangle up for it to gain that label. We as judicious and perhaps overly-thoughtful fans tend to see evidence and examples in hindsight, but a lot of those are not really based on authorial intent in those specific situations. Though we can paint a larger picture of Barbara and her love triangle from them, the individual moments themselves tend to have more innocent motives. If anything, when TimmCo can't think of something to dramatically do with their heroes, they have them fight crime (e.g., any number of comparably less dramatically interesting episodes in TNBA) - a crutch that nobody complains about because, of course, that's why we watch the damn shows anyway.

Agreed that Gilbert and Bergman’s performances are strong and lifelike, but “petulant.” It suits the character, though, since that’s the character’s mindset at the time. Tara Strong has more of a classic “cartoon” voice—not a bad thing, just higher and younger—to portray a character in a more steady-state existence. (Remember, part of the reason the petulance disappears is that one reason for it, her isolation, disappears.)

I'd say the "petulance" of Gilbert/Bergman's interpretations is more of an effect of their use of certain vocal tropes to try and communicate youth. There's a certain strain-for-effect in that voice. Strong, on the other hand, portrays youth more effortlessly, and so her voice comes across smoother because she's not working for that quality as hard as her forebears were. (Worth noting: Strong started playing the character when she was in her mid-20s, as opposed to Gilbert's late 20s and Bergman's late 30s.) Again, nothing against their performances. I just think Strong brought the character of Barbara to a mental plane of finer excellence and stronger sympatheticness - and when pushed to do so, made that same character throw us off with her complicity in the love/lust factor.

As for Angie Harmon, if we’d started Batman Beyond with her voice, we’d assume it was an older Strong. Decent, but, like Strong, not necessarily challenged by the script material. (Gordon had been largely tamed at that point.) Instead we started with Stockard Channing, who did a good job of capturing the Commissioner’s abrasiveness and suspiciousness. I don’t think that we’d regard Channing as an older Gilbert, though.

Silly of me to drop the chance to talk about the older Gordon's voice actresses. Harmon was good, but you're right that the character had been somewhat tamed by that point. Also, her voice sounds more fatigued and troubled, as if her backstory weighs heavier on Harmon's Barbara; this may be due to the actress needing to reach for the age of the character, despite her noted vocal smokiness. Channing, on the other hand, is like Strong in that the age was easy for her, and so her performance reflects other qualities. I'm rewatching Beyond's first season right now, and the interesting thing that comes out most from Channing's Barbara is the bemusement; despite her moments of bitterness and grudge in various spotlight episodes, Channing's Barbara Gordon seems to be somewhat pleasantly resigned to both her work and her inevitable professional relationship with Terry. Watch her first scene in Black Out's last few minutes, and her self-aware irony in the question, "Ever think of talking someone out of it?" Again, part of the mystery surrounding the Bruce/Barbara thing is how lightly Channing seems to wear it, even when she's the one really bringing it up.

Indeed. But I don’t think that asking why Commissioner Barbara said those words constitutes ignoring her love for him. At some point Barbara has learned to separate her love for her father with her professional opinion of his actions. That’s a distinction the younger Barbara wasn’t able to make. But because it’s such a loaded statement, it’s also one the older Barbara probably shouldn’t have made until the creative team were prepared to explore it.

I suppose so. It's possible that the real intent is to leave us asking the questions without getting the answer: if Barbara's feelings regarding Jim have developed to such a place where she can make such a loaded statement, what is she capable of? Ultimately, I brought the comment up to point out how we tend to focus on her negative points; it's too easy to hear that and say, "See, Barbara's got some kind of problem with Jim!" Her pro-Jim scenes seem to get a little taken advantage of.

To some extent, Barbara indeed is asking whether she’s being fair to Jim. But it’s been said some time ago that “Over The Edge” also can be read as a story of how Barbara thinks other people see her. That element trivializes her fear, but that doesn’t necessarily make it an invalid interpretation. Commissioner Barbara grows up to care intensely about how others see her. To her mind, the return of Batman is almost a humiliation. It’s not unreasonable to wonder if there’s a connection to the way people used to see Jim. Has Barbara been influenced by the people who put down her father, or did she come to disagree with his choices on her own?

I don't know that I necessarily see your "humiliation" angle as being consistent enough to be ironclad in her characterization. Her turf wars with Terry - and, perhaps more accurately, with Bruce - are usually isolated incidents (Curare, Eyewitness, etc.). Certainly in these cases, she exhibits fury that comes across like deep-seated loathing. But in other cases, she practically works alongside Terry, her and the new Bat chatting away in the Commish's office in scenes almost no different from BatBruce and Jim.

And consider Heroes, where the non-Bat vigilantes completely intrude on Barbara's stakeout at a hostage situation, charging on the scene exactly in the way that she had just said her troops couldn't by virtue of the danger to the hostages. If this humiliation issue for her really existed, she'd be mad about that even without the history the Batman drudges up; after all, the humiliation would be borne of a need to prove herself the main and most effective protector of the city without vigilante interference, would it not? And yet, Barbara doesn't seem to be too mad about the Trio's involvement, and only stops Magma at any point out of concern for the young girl's fear of him. So there doesn't seem to be any kind of consistent line that the vigilantes of Gotham are crossing with Barbara by existing at all; she seems to get more testy when it gets personal, like when Sam Young gets threatened. In that case, it's less humiliation on professional levels and more on her being touchy about shielding her own home life.

If I may, I’d like to try out a few thoughts I haven’t really heard voiced before.

[snip]

A very interesting postulation here, TOM. I agree with quite a bit of it, and it nicely summarizes how Dick seems to have gravitated from Bruce to Barbara in terms of who he most finds comfort with.

To deal with what you bring up in specific response to my original post:

Which brings up the question of what, exactly, Barbara was “doing so well” with him.

As you mentioned, there's quite a bit of information missing regarding their lives outside the perameters of what the show and each episode's plot requires. Entirely true. But then, that would be expected anyway because it's not The Dick & Barbara Show. These characters enter and exit when TimmCo need them to. But then what makes me say these kids were doing great?

Mostly, it's based on the interactions between Dick and Barbara during episodes like Batgirl Returns and Sub-Zero, where their personalities just kinda bounce off each other. Even as Robin and Batgirl, not knowing who's behind each other's masks, their natural friction had a tendency to melt over time into honest care and gratitude to see each other. We get several instances of them simply talking to each other, and while we don't get so many factual questions answered, like the ones you posed, we do get to see how they meld as personalities. That's more than enough to get a sense of how they work as a couple. And that's not necessarily through a prism of Dick's personal feelings, either, so it's not a matter of Barbara being inappropriately painted as an ideal (we don't really get much of Dick fawning over Barbara in such a way as to affect our perceptions of her, just him syruping her during their dinner date in Old Wounds). If anything, those conversations I mentioned take it from Barbara's perspective - her secret smile in Sub-Zero and her studying-scene bookends in Returns. That's why their love feels real for me.

(And before I forget: Boyd Kirkland, if you’re reading this, did Victor Freeze select Barbara because he recognized her? That is, did Freeze figure that a police family would know and accept the risks of being public figures? Or did he just pick Barbara because all the other candidates were seniors with unusable organs or something?)

It's been a while, but as I recall it, it was actually Gregory Belson who pointed out Barbara specifically, because of blood-type match and comparable age.

For Barbara, the TNBA appearances are very much about quantity-over-quality.

[snip]

Barbara puts in the honorable duty, absolutely. But there’s a certain formulaic, paint-by-numbers lack of originality. Though given some sweet moves and an attention-getting wardrobe, Batgirl has almost as much in common with the faceless police in the background as with the star from whom she drew her name and likeness. Because Barbara isn’t supposed to be one of the faceless background characters, we expect distinctiveness. We expect her to set goals, to learn, or fail but learn from it, or even fail to learn. We expect her to have some human contact (even enemies count). As the Matsudaverse Batgirl zinged in “The Breakout,” there are “no props for bagging henchmen.” Yet that’s essentially all that the TNBA Barbara/Batgirl does.

[snip]

Her accomplishments as a crimefighter are lifesaving, heroic, and real. They’re just not especially memorable. Barbara’s in the position of all those heroic but faceless police officers who pull a thousand drunk drivers off a thousand roads before they cause a thousand accidents. It’s a holy work, but so anonymous.

These are all true enough, for the most part. I think there's more worth in bagging henchman than Matsuda's Babs will have you think, but I get the point.

But this doesn't detract from what I was saying, which is that Barbara deserves the credit of being a committed crusader for justice. That doesn't translate into making her an interesting character, which is what the distinctiveness that you call her on not exhibiting would provide. However, as much of a drama freak as I am - and I am - I prefer to remember that the philosophical priority of Barbara's life, as with all the DCAU heroes, is to save innocents from harm. There's no problem in pointing out Barbara's shortcomings, of which she has many, but sometimes (and I am in no way innocent of this myself) the continuing debate surrounding this fan-favorite issue can make Barb sound more hateable than Ferris Boyle. It's worth it to remember that the character of Batgirl serves several purposes, one of which is to prove that the girls can do anything the boys do. While Barbara has several individual problems that harm her own case, she does indeed effectively set the equality status straight.

I think most of us would give credit for the idea and intention of Barbara as an authority figure trying to keep Terry honest. I just think the character failed to decisively establish herself as such. As another poster mentioned, Barbara needs someone to keep her honest too.

[huge snip]

Hey, I don't have much objection to your main arguments on Elder Barbara. But I do think that some of your episode readings are a little over-negative (like Black Out, as I referenced above). She's pretty bitter in Spellbound, I admit, although I always thought some of that was just from Barbara being mad at Bruce for letting Terry blankly and bluntly lie to her when she picked Spellbinder up. She shoots Bruce a look that seems to say, "Are you really going to let the boy dig this hole for himself?" I don't think Terry's so unwelcome for Barbara on his own; she's just not pleased that welcoming Terry means re-welcoming Bruce. Later episodes mangle this, I agree, like in Babel and Eyewitness, and those episodes are weaker as a result. But I don't know if it's quite as clearly going to be that way from the beginning.

Oh, and...

She isn’t actually trying to help him improve, and in “ROTJ” she deliberately hinders his investigation.

No more than Bruce does. In fact, less.

On the Matsuda Batgirl: I've given up on commenting on The on these boards, and having not seen enough of the show, I wouldn't want to anyway.

With Barbara we can see the areas in which she could be tweaked … okay, Totally Revamped … and it seems so exasperating that the creative team doesn’t see things we think are obvious. Barbara is always courageous; usually self-sacrificing; always setting an example for all of us. (Well, technically, sometimes she sets a good example, and sometimes she serves as a bad one, as a warning to the rest of us.) Barbara’s inner hero gives her strength, makes her noble (sometimes), definitely allows her to die with pride—but doesn’t always make her steady or ask her to give up a dream. Sometimes the restriction chafes her. Probably the biggest question in the above is, Does Barbara’s inner hero keep her honest. A lot of the non-affair debate topics return to that particular question. Unfortunately the creative team consistently did very little with this topic, or indeed with anything particularly “deep” or choice-driven. All too often Barbara’s just sort of “there.” She doesn’t even have any “wisemen” (or –women”) to guide her. If we can’t see her journey, we can’t measure her against herself, only against others. That kind of subtext tends not to end well. We needed to see her build a better Barbara, not an imitation of someone else.

*whew* How was that? :)

Not bad. I don't disagree, although what you've said makes Maxie Zeus' words come to mind:

Then, too, the problem [with stories focusing on heroes] may be emotional: An episode that describes how Harvey Dent became Two Face has as its object the ruin of Dent, and so has every incentive to go to operatic excess, the better to motivate the gruesome change. Where the change involves a hero, however, the writer tends to be careful; the shift in character cannot be too extreme, lest it undercut the character's underlying nobility. As a result the heroes' stories tend to get short shrift. Dick, Tim and Barbara start off only one short step away from their final character; then something tips them over into a new role.

The fear to harm a character's status as "goodguy" is what most applies here. For a female character, especially one on television, tradition sadly makes that this fear tenfold. Just like Marge and Lisa on The Simpsons aren't allowed to be nearly as stupid and therefore focused-on as the boys are. Since there's an uncertainty about putting a female character through the paces or the wringer, they tend to get, as Maxie puts it, short shrift. Now, the DCAU has done great stuff with creating female characters all over the moral spectrum, with all sorts of strong focus, so it's not nearly so guilty of this typical television crime. But Barb did seem to suffer from some of that, getting to a point where she was present but not crucial in the drama of most of the episodes. Because certain things had been done with her, but a certain hesitance to elaborate existed (combined with the natural hesitance to get into something so definitely adult-oriented), the plain events that had been established for Barbara in this love triangle end up having to speak for themselves, which didn't do much to help her. I think that's one of the really key problems for the DCAU Barbara.