Can you push the envelope so far the whole thing falls apart?

[MattL.]

While I'm very much looking forward to Paradise Lost, after some of the information about it has started me to thinking.


Before I begin however, I want to just go ahead an answer some of the likely negative comments right out of the gate. I am in no way advocating the return of the days when a superhero cartoon was handled in the manner of SuperFreinds, nor am I aksing for intelligent themes to be watered down. Just thought I'd make that clear.

See, one of the main parts of the appeal of the work that Bruce Timm has done in these series is how they have managed to balance a certain level of quality and sophistication while still not alienating kids.

See, when the mainline comics adopted the "Comics arent for kids anymore" mantra (and even used as a marketing slogan to such a degree that might as well have been saying p*** off kids!)not only did it become an excuse for many a hack writer to just indugle in whatever base gratuitous and lewd material he could attach on a formerly universal icon, but it also cut the next generation of comics readers off because no parent in their right mind would let their kid go near some of these comics.

Yet, the appeal of the colorfulness and heroism of these characters to a child cannot and *should not* be denied. Its obvious that theres a universal appeal to superheroes wether you are 8 or 80. So why turn it into an "Adults Only" club with "Adult" always meaning gore and sex or some combination of the two?

Anyhow, getting back to my point. I enjoy the fact that Bruce Timm and co. are getting to do things with the level of drama and intensity that they probably couldn't have dreamed of during their days under Fox Kids or WB.

I've liked the way things have been handled in TAS all this time even leading up to Enemy Below where the drama of Aquamans sacrfice was handled in such an excellent manner that it became *more* dramatic for having been as subtle as it was. Same goes for the ROTJ edit.

However, I'm just worried that this desire to push the envelpe could be taken to far as to once again deny children, the next generation of superhero lovers, animation lovers and comicbook readers to enjoy this as much as we do.

I've always admired TAS shows because they've been able to do the one thing that modern post-Miller comics refuse to do. Be dramatic and sophisticated, but still have fun and invite *everyone* to the experience.

Am I saying animation and comics should be just for kids. Hell no. But what point is there in choosing to shut them out?

[Batman 80]

I don't think JL will alienate any kids at all. Whatever they show will probably be similar to how well they handled Aquaman losing his hands. I don't think there is any reason to worry.

[kid_flash]

Yeah, I agree with Hot Rod. I mean, The Enemy Below was not as intense as Berkowitz had it cracked up to be ("Most intense every done by WBA..." sh'yeah right, ROTJ was ten times more intense). And seriously, besides the scene with the hand, there wasn't really anything bad in there. Aquaman got slashed with a knife and didn't bleed (very Aquaman-like to be sure, but he cringed). And, yes, Orin did fall down a cliff, but the Joker's done the same thing how many times...?

Also, anything to make cartoons more mature is cool by me. A lotta kids don't even GET Cartoon Network. Besides, JL's being prepped for CN's Adult Swim action block. And also, kids could discover this stuff when they're older.

As for comics, the tagline says "Comics aren't just for kids anymore." The "just" is important, because it's saying that kids still read comics.

[Joe Tully]

Well, Berkowitz called Enemy below "one of the most intense half-hours ever to come from Warners Animation" which is definitely true. In my book, comparing ROTJ to an episode of JL is apples and oranges, since there's a difference between what you can get away with on video and on a cable network for (let's face it) kids. I think that JL is raising the bar for American animation. When was the last time that you saw something as dramatic & intense as that scene from Enemy Below in non-anime animation? You could maybe come up with one or two examples from BTAS, but that's about it. No, it's not the most violent stuff in the world, and it won't scar any kids' minds, and it pales in comparison to the kind of gore you can see in a movie theater, but I think that it's impressive considering that it's on a kids' cable network. Besides, I like to think of intensity as meaning psychologically intense, not just in terms of how much blood you get to see, in which case I would say that JL has succeeded.

So, to (finally) answer the question, will JL alienate kids? Taking into account that kids means anyone in the age group 0-12 years old, I'd say that could be the case. If a 5 year old freaks out when he sees Aquaman's hand get chopped off, or starts having JL-related nightmares, his parents won't let him watch anymore. I think that JL does a good job of giving us some intensity while not giving us so much that all kids will be driven away. But, I think that JL does have enough intensity to drive away some kids so that it won't get as high a proportion of kids watching JL as, say, Super Friends. :rolleyes: However, they will get a lot of older people and a good amount of kids watching by having some intensity on the show but not going too far.

[Mr. Obsession]

Remember back when BTAS was on Fox kids, the creative team found a balance that meshed with the network standards. Remember when TNBSA and later BB were on kids WB, again the creative team experimented and eventually found a balance in the shows that meshed with the network standards. The same thing is happening with JL and CN. The problem is that kids WB let them get away with more than Fox kids did, and CN lets them get away with more than kids WB did, so it's taking them a little longer to find that balance between what they want, what the network wants, and what appeals to all the fans (regardless of age).

One other thing to remember. Back when they moved to KWB Timm talked about how the network would let them get away with stuff that they'd take a second look at and decide to make a little tamer. I suspect the same kind of thing has been going on for the last few months. Look at the improvements that "The Enemy Below" and "In Blackest Night" had over "Secret Origins". They're finding that balance that works, everything is falling in to place, and the future is looking better. Just relax and enjoy it.

[nothing]

Originally posted by Joe Tully
So, to (finally) answer the question, will JL alienate kids? Taking into account that kids means anyone in the age group 0-12 years old, I'd say that could be the case. If a 5 year old freaks out when he sees Aquaman's hand get chopped off, or starts having JL-related nightmares, his parents won't let him watch anymore.

The show is rated Y7-FV, if a 5 year old freaks out after watching it... so be it. The parents were warned that the show is too intense for children under 7 years of age. JL is an action/drama cartoon with some comedy thrown in to keep it light. I don't think the producers are alienating kids... they are making a show that is challanging and is fairly realistic (well... based in a comic book reality). If they wanted to alienate kids they would make the show at a PG level and show the other side of global catastrophe or what criminals are capable of. CN is very responsible in their productions and have a decent rep for being kid friendly. I don't think a 5 year old would freak out because Aquaman chopped his own hand off. They would probably ask their parents why he did it.

[Heehaw]

The heck with the kids. The darker the better. In fact, maintain the cool "balances" established in BTAS(in terms of violence vs. composition) and give us super gritty tales of whatever. They need to drop the PC bologne and get down to business.

[Joe Tully]

nothing, I agree with you. If a 5 year old can't deal with the intensity of the show, then good, because that means we're not watching the same watered-down stuff that Super Friends was. However, like you said, JL is Y7 which means that it is probably too much for kids under 7. Which means that parents who have kids under 7 might not let the kids watch it. This does drive away some kids, mostly the ones under age 7. Maybe not very many kids, but certainly some of them. But, it does draw lots of adults who don't want to see watered-down Super Friends filth. And maybe a random, average 5 year old wouldn't freak out at some of the stuff on JL, but some 5 year olds would, and you'd see even more kids get scared by JL when you went down to 4 years old and 3 years old and lower still. (Trust me on this, I had a 4 year old cousin who watched Scooby Doo on Zombie Island and he started getting creeped out during the show and said that he was scared of it when he went to bed later that night.) But, it's good that we're seeing something that has the ability to do that, because it means that we're watching something that is actually intense enough to capture the interest of older viewers like ourselves. They're just sacrificing a few younger viewers for the sake of getting a lot of older ones, which I think is great.

[Livewire]

I agree wth you MattL. The reason I have been a fan ot Timm's shows thus far was because kids and adults could watch them together. However, I have a little sister, and because she's not yet seven, she hasn't seen any of the episodes. I don't know why this ep in particular has been deemed so adult. It is Y7 and they do have to stay within those confines. It's not as if it's part of Adult Swim. I hope it never is. Imo, superheroes are first and foremost for the kids, which is how it should be.

[Caped Crusader]

Originally posted by kid_flash

Besides, JL's being prepped for CN's Adult Swim action block . [/QUOTE]


Where did you hear that, kid_flash ? Why would would CN do something stupid like that?! I agree with Livewire, JL doesn't belong on Adult Swim. It's a kid's show!

[Poison Carley]

Well the cartoon is on at 9:30 PM on Monday night. I am not a mother nor do I see myself as ever being one ;) but like I don't think my mom let me stay up till 9:30 on a school night watching tv. Sooooo I do not even think a younger kid, 5 or whatever should be watching it. Just because of the time. Like they replay it on Sunday, I dunno the time. There's point 1. Point 2 is the rating and other's have explained that. Parents need to be parents and don't blame other's for their inability to do so.

[MattL.]

Its not a process of blame so much as treatment and gearing of the material at hand.

Superheroes appeal to all ages young and old which is why I've liked the things the animated series have done and why I wish the comics would get out of their post-Miller grim n gritty, overwriting rut and do the same.

I just hope that in taking the show to dramatic heights, they dont make the same mistake that the mainline comics have.

Unlike many comics fans who came into it after 1986 I dont view grim and darkness as intrinsically cool unto itself. "the darker the better", not hardly.

Even when it comes to Batman it can be too much to the point where its as equally ridiculous as anything the 60's show did (only worse sometimes because unlike the 60's show, modern comics take themselves too seriously to the point of anerism.)

It should be neither kids only or adults only. I dont want to use the phrase "family entertainment" because thats a term thats usually limited to discribing drek like the Olsen Twin movies or something.

But I do think keeping a certain universal level about it is in order.

So far the creative judgement of the team has been good. Even when it comes to ROTJ. Myself, I prefer the edited version not soley on the basis of it being "safer", but I think the changes they made created a better story overall and still succeeded in being freghtning in the places that were intended to be so.

I think the upcoming episode will be great, but I felt that the question needed to be put forth which is why I posted it here.

[Heehaw]

Naw, the darker the better. Edited ROTJ was good for a laugh. The 60s are gone, let the darkness shine through the smokey high.

[kid_flash]

Originally posted by Caped Crusader



Where did you hear that, kid_flash ? Why would would CN do something stupid like that?! I agree with Livewire, JL doesn't belong on Adult Swim. It's a kid's show!

There was a news story here awhile back. JL's being shown in the same block with Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star and such, and I believe it's been called the Adult Swim action block.

And dangit, Heehaw, you rule man! Everytime there's one of these posts, you're always there telling it like it is. I love it.

Anyway, I agree that there are some things that should be a little lighter, but I would definitely like to see JL go darker. For instance--people bleed. I know, shocking news story there, but if you get hit hard enough, even if you're Superman, you're gonna be losing a little life.

[MattL.]

Yeah, hehaw is about what I expected from posting this...
So very freakin typical of Iron Age fandom.

D@rKneSS &Bluuud ROxxoR!! :rolleyes:

Sadly, very typical.

For those of you who posted with thought out responses, I thank you.

[The Mad Hatter]

Okay, going to lock up this unwarranted personal attack before it turns flaming...