Which mainstream Universe would you consider more child oriented?

[Cool Blue]

In a recent conversation, a companion of mine stated that he thought Marvel was way more child oriented for kids than DC. He thought that the DC storylines were just too serious and the characters in Marvel were more reader friendly. I personally strongly disagree, thinking that Marvel has so much more real world issues going on. It's more of a, "Hey, this is what the world is like!" type of comic.

In short, I would like your opinion on which you think is more directed towards children? and for the sake of easier decision making, let's say a child is of 10 yrs of age or younger.

[Antiyonder]

I find both actually to be too adult. Yes, I know they have an all ages line, but really the mainstream titles should be the first ones to be directed toward all ages. Use cartoons like Gargoyles and the DCAU for references, targeted for kids, but with an edge. Heck, some of us adults who collect comics, have the intention of passing them on to our children to come later in life. If I wanted depression, I'd read newspaper articles on rape and murder/death. For those who expect heavy realisim, why not just record your life on a camcorder, and leave the comics to those of us with an imagination. I enjoy some realisim and seriousness in stories, but they need to be balanced.

[Xurk]

Neither of them are 100% suitable for children anymore. I don't know if I read it somewhere on the Internet, or on these boards, but I agree with the fact that the comics are maturing along with their audience; not many kids start reading comics nowadays, most comic readers are adults who have been reading for ages, so the stories have adjusted to the maturity of the readers.

But I think it's good that there are still lines aimed at children, like the "Marvel Ages" and "Marvel Adventures" titles :)

[Shawn Hopkins]

In the past, I would have said DC, because at least their main line superheroes like Superman and Wonderwoman were pretty clean and the more adult stuff was shunted off to Vertigo. But since Identity Crisis even the main DC universe has become a place where rape, gore and violent death are common things. Now we have comics that feature both Superman and Wonderwoman and decapitations, the Justice League and brutal rape and murder. They aren't bad comics, but it means parents can't automatically assume a comic is appropriate for a child just because it features a beloved kids character.

Marvel hasn't really made its characters and stories that much more violent than they were in the past. In fact, I applaud that they don't try to justify the actions of psychos like the Punisher or glorify what Wolverine does as much anymore. Used to be that no matter how nasty the methods of a so-called "hero" were, if he sold books he could team up with Captain America and Spider-Man and be treated like a great guy. Captain American actually saluted Frank Castle once. Nevermind that's wrong simply based on their respective military ranks, it completely sends the wrong message.

But Civil War kind of troubles me from a young readers standpoint. I know they said at the start that they were going to cover it in an even handed way, but it hasn't worked that way. They've quite frankly made about half of the Marvel Universe bad guys now who support the oppression of others for morally relativistic, cover our own ass reasons. I just can't buy Iron Man and She-Hulk being willing to kill other Avengers because they don't agree with them.

[Eddie G.]

Now we have comics that feature both Superman and Wonderwoman and decapitations, the Justice League and brutal rape and murder. They aren't bad comics, but it means parents can't automatically assume a comic is appropriate for a child just because it features a beloved kids character.But this isn't new. I mean look at the Teen Titans in the 80's. Raven and Starfire both had rape as part of their origins. Not to mention the fact that one of the first issue of Action Comics involved a women being abused by her husband and men attempting to rape Lois. Meanwhile Wonder Woman started off pretty kinky.

Honestly, Marvel is your best bet. The Ultimate line is pretty kid friendly except for Ultimates, and then there's Marvel Age and Marvel Adventures.

Neither Marvel or DC are that offensive though or graphic in what they depict. Identity Crisis for example is pretty safe for a twelve year old despite some of the issues it deals with.


most comic readers are adults who have been reading for ages, so the stories have adjusted to the maturity of the readers.It's more that people start reading comics when they get older. Since Infinite Crisis there have been a lot of new readers, they're just not little kids.

We're seriously hitting a new age for comics and it's pretty cool. There's a lot of new readers coming in and comics are finally being accepted as a legit medium of storytelling. And I'm even starting to see more kids show up in the shops again.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I disagree about the gore not being graphically depicted. Some of the later issues of Infinite Crisis were simply gruesome, with Superboy seperating some of the Titans into pieces. It was even more detailed in some places in the Titans book that ties into it.

You can't compare the pre-code comics from the 1930s to the bulk of DC's established, agressively kid friendly history. Batman started off killing people, too, but then he stopped for more than 60 years.

As for the New Teen Titans, it was a very groundbreaking book for DC and even though I don't have every issue I don't remember any graphic rape scenes, at least none as obvious as the rape of Sue. (I remember Raven had a Rosemary's Baby origin, her mom impregnated by Trigon as part of a Satanic cult, but if Starfire was shown to be raped during her time in slavery I don't remember). Superman was still having his stodgy old adventures at the time and fighting Kryptonite Man.

I agree, however, that nothing in these books should bother a 12-year-old. I think that's more than old enough to handle most things. My favorite book when I was 12 was Pet Semetary. Eight-year-olds might be a different story, though.

The lesson I took away from Identity and Infinite Crisis is that so few kids read comics DC doesn't even try to write for them anymore. So if adult readers might think it was cool to make Dr. Light a rapist or have Superboy rip apart some Z grade characters no one has seen in years, that's what they do.

[Lord Pumpkin]

Marvel used to have a decent kids line called Star, that had Top Dog, Wally the Wizard, Planet Terry, and licenced properties like He-Man, and Muppet Babies.

Archie is still more of a kids comic, since they got rid of smoking in the comics. Yes, Mr. Lodge smoked cigars in the early comics. Moose was a idiot, until we found out he had dyselixia.:anime:

[Shawn Hopkins]

I guess I should explain my Dr. Light avatar. I scanned it myself in 2001, far before Identity Crisis. I was a big fan of the goofy version in John Ostrander's Suicide Squad. Of course, this scene is Dr. Light's face right before he murders a child, but I don't think it scuttles my argument. Suicide Squad was also a groundbreaking book. Since the mid-1980s DC published several peripheral titles with a good deal of violence, such as Haywire. I'm just saying the core superheroes seem to be more consistently gorey and dark lately, especially in crossovers that should be accessible to everyone.

[Doop]

I just can't buy Iron Man and She-Hulk being willing to kill other Avengers because they don't agree with them.

I don't recall them actually trying to kill the other Avengers. :confused:

[Shawn Hopkins]

I don't recall them actually trying to kill the other Avengers. :confused:

They knew the others would resist and they might get killed. They support the "Capekillers" from SHIELD who use real guns. And in one issue, Tony actually said something like people should rest up "before the dying starts tomorrow." The pro-registration people know the stakes here.

[spidl]

Neither. They both have lines designed for kids. Those are the comics parents should be giving to children.

[Deadman]

id say they are both equal.

[Doop]

They knew the others would resist and they might get killed. They support the "Capekillers" from SHIELD who use real guns. And in one issue, Tony actually said something like people should rest up "before the dying starts tomorrow." The pro-registration people know the stakes here.

JoeQ responded to a similiar question, saying "In Civil War #2, the order is very specifically given and followed through on in regards to Patriot: tranquilizers, and minimum force. Similarly, there's not one word in New Avengers #21 that indicates that the shots the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents are firing are actual rounds." (http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays09.html)

[RAINMAN]

I find both actually to be too adult. Yes, I know they have an all ages line, but really the mainstream titles should be the first ones to be directed toward all ages. Uses cartoons like Gargoyles and the DCAU for references, targeted for kids, but with an edge. Heck, some of us adults who collect comics, have the intention of passing them on to our children to come later in life. If I wanted depression, I'd read newspaper articles on rape and murder/death. For those who expect heavy realisim, why not just record your life on a camcorder, and leave the comics to those of us with an imagination. I enjoy some realisim and seriousness in stories, but they need to be balanced.


Good point. I`m tired of writers and fans thinking you need real life stuff in fictional comics to make a story.

[Jor-El]

You know what I'm tired of? People who like to pretend that the evil in the world doesn't exist for the sake of making a comic book "fun" or "safe."

And for some reason, people ALWAYS point to the rape in Identity Crisis as one of the big parts of their arguments. I say it's better to talk about rape and other violent crimes if it's presented in a way that clearly shows the action is wrong, like Identity Crisis did. Nobody gave Dr. Light a high five and told him he was a man for doing it. Their reaction was one of pain and terror and maybe if the situation was discussed more openly (and yes - with younger audiences in mind) we'd have less guys growing up to be college guys raping college girls and telling themselves it's not really rape or, worse yet, not really wrong.

Comics are one of many ways that involved parents can sit down with their children and teach them what parents should be teaching children. Far too many parents leave this as the responsibility of TV or schools (and then are the ones who complain the loudest when either school or television tries to do so). Parents should read a comic with their kids and then when something morally questionable happens, they could talk to their kids about it.

I think all of the "mainstream" comics are kid-friendly. I think it takes ignorance on adults' parts to say that Dr. Light's rape of Sue was inappropriate for a comic despite it being portrayed as a truly evil action, just as I think it takes the ignorance of adults to say that WW killing Max Lord was wrong even though he had full control of Superman, who he could have used to murder, well, pretty much anyone he wanted to.

Anyone need a tissue to stop crying about it?

[Cool Blue]

Comics are one of many ways that involved parents can sit down with their children and teach them what parents should be teaching children; things which far too many parents leave up to TV or schools (and then are the ones that complain the loudest when either tries to do so.) Parents should read a comic with their kids and then when something morally questionable happens, they could talk to their kids about it.

I think all of the "mainstream" comics are kid-friendly. I think it takes ignorance on adults' parts to say that Dr. Light's rape of Sue was inappropriate for a comic despite it being portrayed as a truly evil action, just as I think it takes the ignorance of adults to say that WW killing Max Lord was wrong even though he had full control of Superman, who he could have used to murder, well, pretty much anyone he wanted to.

Anyone need a tissue to stop crying about it?

It really is much more than the rape scene in Identity Crisis, the massacre that Superboy unleashed was quite graphic. In the weekly comic book series 52, the Black Adam brutalizes people who disagree with him. You can even see an eyeball.....an eyeball in the panel. Comic Books are a form of entertainment, and is maturing it's stories as their readers get older. It isn't there job to imprint our youth with moral lessons. As a superhero comic, it's pretty obvious that whatever the villian does is bad and heroes, normally do justice. No one's crying about the rape scene in Identity Crisis, there just isn't a fair warning to parents that comics are becoming more and more graphic as it loses it's original target population.

[RAINMAN]

Who in their right mind think comic should teach kids the facts of life? That like saying spiderman,superman&batman should rase young kids instead their own parantes.


As for doc light, I understand DC wanted him to become a serious viallin insted of the joke of a loser. But do it in a crative way, instead they turn him into a rapist? Thats the best they can do? Anyone can have had him do that. Whatever happend to having a crative imagantion? Are writers becoming too lazy or do they think vilance make for better stories? What really borther me now is will other writers in the future used that in their own future stories when they try to turn a loser viallin into a serious one? I see a(another) very dark trend being born in comics.:(

[Doop]

While the ramifications of the JLA's mindwipes was interesting, in making Light a rapist they radically changed his character and made him an irredeemable scumbag. It would have been nice if they could have made his character more formidable without making him completely despicable as well. :sad:

[Jor-El]

Who in their right mind think comic should teach kids the facts of life?Evidently, Sir, you and Cool Blue.

I don't. And that's why I don't see why violence in comics is as alarming as you seem to think it is. I don't care which universe is more "child-oriented" because comics aren't for children anymore. It's a little bit upsetting, but it's true. The demographic to which comics are now being created can handle the violence.


That like saying spiderman,superman&batman should rase young kids instead their own parantes.If "parantes" object to the material their children are reading, it is their responsibility to keep themselves aware of what their kids are reading. And remember, there is always Justice League Unlimited, Teen Titans Go!, The Batman Strikes and several other Marvel titles aimed at children. They lack violence, but they also largely lack story, characterization, and excitement. Sadly, the days when the animated-style books like Superman Adventures and Batman Adventures were actually good are long gone.


As for doc light, I understand DC wanted him to become a serious viallin insted of the joke of a loser. But do it in a crative way, instead they turn him into a rapist? Thats the best they can do? Anyone can have had him do that.Okay, but nobody had done that! If Dr. Light had taken the city for ransom! everyone here (okay, maybe not here) would be complaining that it was just the same-old, same-old and asking "Where was the creativity?" and "Where was something we hadn't seen a thousand times before?"


While the ramifications of the JLA's mindwipes was interesting, in making Light a rapist they radically changed his character and made him an irredeemable scumbag. It would have been nice if they could have made his character more formidable without making him completely despicable as well. :sad:Why should a villain not be a despicable scumbag?

[DR.MID-NITE]

DC has definitely gotten more mature. Don't read enough Marvel to cast a vote. But, I don't mind the storylines. I can still let my kids read the DC kid's line...Justice League Unlimited, Batman Adventures, etc.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


I don't care which universe is more "child-oriented" because comics aren't for children anymore. It's a little bit upsetting, but it's true. The demographic to which comics are now being created can handle the violence.

Superhero comics from DC and Marvel may not be for children any more. Comics, as a medium, are as much for children as they are for teens, adults, and senior citizens as much as they always have been.

I think the underlying assumption that needs challenging here is whether or not all the DC and Marvel superheroes NEED to be for children or not. Howver, that's a topic I've rambled on and on about many times before and it's not directly germane to the topic of the thread.

I think both Marvel and DC are equally child-friendly, which is to say "not very." I still say that if you can't find suitable comics for kids, even from the Big 2, then you aren't looking hard enough.

-- Ed

[Doop]

Why should a villain not be a despicable scumbag?

Because villains are more complex and interesting when they aren't pure evil. Most good villains are at least a little sympathetic, with at least a little humanity.

Geoff Johns was able to make the Rogues more interesting and formidable without making them all evil rapists. Right now, Light is uninteresting; he's just an utter scumbag and it blows my mind everyone's making a big deal about the JLA mindwiping him when they should have just put a bullet in his head and dumped his carcass into space.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Dr. Light was already pretty pure evil, though. Rape was just about the only boundary he hadn't crossed. Like I said, he murdered a child in Suicide Squad. Most of his complexities came from moral weakness and stupidity.

They updated him and made him some bad-ass, kewl energy being with a new look for a while, too. This Dr. Light hung with Luthor's new Injustice Society in JLA Rock of Ages and gave them a pretty hard time. But for some reason this was ignored in Identity Crisis and we were back to the dumb Dr. Light that was a joke in Suicide Squad.

DC actually reneutered the character and ignored years of his continuity, focusing on just one period of his history to justify its mindwipe explanation.

I think the argument that kids should be exposed to such material, as long as its shown to be wrong, is way off base. It's alright to cram in as much gore and depraved sex acts as you want, as long as you have a little coda that says, "but that's wrong?" That's about as flimsy as the "It's coming right for us," excuse the hunters in Southpark use.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I didn't read the last part of your post. Yes, the DCU villians are complete and utter pusses to whine just because one of em got mindwiped. They've acted like animals for years and the JLA has treated them with kid gloves. They have the gall to complain when the JLA get fed up and starts giving them what they deserve.

[Antiyonder]

You know what I'm tired of? People who like to pretend that the evil in the world doesn't exist for the sake of making a comic book "fun" or "safe."

And for some reason, people ALWAYS point to the rape in Identity Crisis as one of the big parts of their arguments. I say it's better to talk about rape and other violent crimes if it's presented in a way that clearly shows the action is wrong, like Identity Crisis did. Nobody gave Dr. Light a high five and told him he was a man for doing it. Their reaction was one of pain and terror and maybe if the situation was discussed more openly (and yes - with younger audiences in mind) we'd have less guys growing up to be college guys raping college girls and telling themselves it's not really rape or, worse yet, not really wrong.

I'm not saying to leave it out, but putting adult content for the sake of it doesn't mean it's mature. Comics are suppose to be escapisim right? So doesn't increasing the realisim lower said escapisim?

Next, are you going to say that Mr. Freeze in Batman The Animated Series is boring, because he wasn't a horndog?

Again, cartoons like Gargoyles, Batman The Animated Series, Superman, Batman Beyond, Justice League and JLU prove you don't have to use heavy sex to be adult. Same could be said for comics like Spider-Girl, Flash The Return Of Barry Allen, etc.

While some may see Dr. Light raping as merely a good dark storyline, I'm sure a well written story was far from the mind of the writer, more for shock value.

I hope I'm not sounding rude or anything, but it seems like you only prefer stories relying on adult content and depression. Sure I enjoy a serious story as much as any reader, but it doesn't hurt to show optimism more often.

[Doop]

Dr. Light was already pretty pure evil, though. Rape was just about the only boundary he hadn't crossed. Like I said, he murdered a child in Suicide Squad. Most of his complexities came from moral weakness and stupidity.

It's not right, but didn't he kill the child in the heat of battle (wikipedia: "his young age and child appearance triggered Dr. Light's traumatic experiences against the Teen Titans from the past") and feel real guilty about it afterwards?

[Jor-El]

Next, are you going to say that Mr. Freeze in Batman The Animated Series is boring, because he wasn't a horndog?At no point in my post did I suggest that the only good storylines were storylines in which someone gets raped. I only said that if it happens, people shouldn't start being angry that it happened just because comics are "supposed to be" fun and happy and "escapist." Because, frankly, if comics were supposed to be those things, low sales would not have forced D C to cancel books like Plastic Man and Solo.


I hope I'm not sounding rude or anything, but it seems like you only prefer stories relying on adult content and depression. Sure I enjoy a serious story as much as any reader, but it doesn't hurt to show optimism more often.Nor did I suggest that. The thing is, that was not the point of Identity Crisis and so many people I have talked to seem not to like the book on the basis that it was not a happy romp through the history of the Satellite League.

[Shawn Hopkins]

It's not right, but didn't he kill the child in the heat of battle (wikipedia: "his young age and child appearance triggered Dr. Light's traumatic experiences against the Teen Titans from the past") and feel real guilty about it afterwards?

He was really happy about it, at least at first. It was a personal victory for him, since he'd had his ass kicked by every kid superhero from the Titans to Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys. I remember him being more embarassed when the Squad called him on it.

He did try to be more heroic after this, but it was because the ghost of Jacob Finlay, who he sort of killed to get the light powers, was goading him on. The ghost eventually goaded light into getting himself killed on Apokolips. If you want to look at this as a manifestation of Light's subconscious guilt, so be it. However, the guilt was mostly about betraying Finlay. Also, there are a lot of ghosts in the DCU, so who is to say it was not the real deal.

[Antiyonder]

At no point in my post did I suggest that the only good storylines were storylines in which someone gets raped. I only said that if it happens, people shouldn't start being angry that it happened just because comics are "supposed to be" fun and happy and "escapist." Because, frankly, if comics were supposed to be those things, low sales would not have forced D C to cancel books like Plastic Man and Solo.

Nor did I suggest that. The thing is, that was not the point of Identity Crisis and so many people I have talked to seem not to like the book on the basis that it was not a happy romp through the history of the Satellite League.

Just checking your take on my opinion, I apologize for sounding harsh, but thanks for repsonding to it just the same.

[Gokou Ruri]

I find no reason why rape and other "real" issues should be toned down from these comics. Heroes are out there to protect and save people, so it makes sense to imput "real" crimes into them. Rape is as much of a crime as building a machine to control the weather or some other crazy idea. I'm actually glad they imput rape and other dark crimes into comics, because they happen all the time in real life. I see no reason why this "realism" comics have been getting the past few decades is anything but good.

I suppose if I grew up with the Golden Age comics, the new turn might leave a bad taste in my mouth.. like if Spongebob Squarepants suddenly became a murder mystery show. I read comics because I like the dark, serious, and mature storylines they provide. If I want a fun, campy romp, I watch cartoons.

[Antiyonder]

I suppose if I grew up with the Golden Age comics, the new turn might leave a bad taste in my mouth.. like if Spongebob Squarepants suddenly became a murder mystery show. I read comics because I like the dark, serious, and mature storylines they provide. If I want a fun, campy romp, I watch cartoons.

That's the problem, why do comics have to be either fun or serious, why not a good mixture or both.

FYI, putting in adult content for the sake of it doesn't equal maturity; good writng, solid scripts and interesting characters however are.

Again, watch Batman The Animated Series and Gargoyles, proof that you can have the best of both worlds. Paul Dini's issues of Detective Comics is also another example.

[Gokou Ruri]

That's the problem, why do comics have to be either fun or serious, why not a good mixture or both.

It takes skill to pull that off without it being horrible. Which is why I disliked the Teen Titans cartoon show. It didn't know whether it wanted to be wacky and comedic or try to be dark and serious, and in the end it was so stretched between the two and ruined each aspect for me and I ended up disliking the show.


FYI, putting in adult content for the sake of it doesn't equal maturity; good writng, solid scripts and interesting characters however are.

Of course not, but quality of the writing also has no baring on if something is mature or not. What makes a show mature is if you treat the content of the story in a mature fashion. A show that uses sex in a comedic fashion isn't going to be considered mature, but a show that uses sex in a realistic and serious fashion will be mature.

It's all about presentation of the content, not the content itself.

Point is, I see no reason why this content should not be in a comic. It's set in the real world so real world issues are obviously going to be included in it.


Again, watch Batman The Animated Series and Gargoyles, proof that you can have the best of both worlds. Paul Dini's issues of Detective Comics is also another example.

Gargoyles and Batman:TAS were never really goofy or off-the-wall comedic.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Gargoyles and Batman:TAS were never really goofy or off-the-wall comedic.

I think you're equating "fun" with "funny," when they're not necessarily the same thing. It's one of the reasons why the question, "Why aren't comics fun any more?" really irks me, because none of the askers ever manages to define "fun" well. I think Marvel's She-Hulk, Evil Twin's Action Philosophers, Archaia's Mouse Guard, and DC/Wildstorm's Sleeper are all "fun" comics, despite having almost nothing in common thematically.

It also occurs to me now that proponents of including ugly story elements in superhero comics because it's "realistic" never seem to apply the same arguments for including humorous story elements in comics. Crazy, stupid, or funny things happen in real life as often as tragic or ugly things (and, if you're lucky, more often), but nobody ever seems to suggest turning superhero comics more "realistic" by putting in the goofier sides of life. I had a quote a while ago from Dwayne McDuffie that went something like, "When comic writers make something 'realistic,' usually they take all the humor out."

Still, I agree with your fundamental point that real all-ages material is really hard to do well. I think we'd have a lot more if it were that easy.

-- Ed

[Antiyonder]

Still, I agree with your fundamental point that real all-ages material is really hard to do well.

True, but shouldn't writers try to challenge themselves every now and then?

[Anthonynotes]

What Ace said; in real life, I don't see anyone clamoring for the destruction of Disneyworld, Cartoon Network or nature preserves because there's rape, murder and war in the Middle East coexisting on the same planet. Besides, I read superhero comics for *some* semblance of optimism/escapism---while I don't mind seeing superhero comics occasionally deal with racism/social issues/etc., generally if I want to be exposed to nonstop real-life darker elements, that's what I watch the news for...