DCAU Death Toll

[Wolf Boy2]

I am trying to figure out how many people died in the DCAU shows.


B:TAS:
the archeologist in Avatar
the Waynes
the Graysons
Carl Beaumont
Rossum's Daughter
Chuckie Sol
Buzz Bronski
Salvatore Valestra
The guy Bullock arrested Croc for killing
Two-Face's Thugs in "Two-Face: part 2"
Two-Face's Thugs in "Almost Got 'Em"
Twitch
The 2 Society of Shadows Ninjas
Count Vertigo
The Penguin's henchman in "The Mechanic"
The henchman Maxie Zeus blasted
Kyodai Ken
Clayface
Hardac Batman
The Submarine Crew in Subzero
Dr. Gregory Belson

TNBA
shopowner in "World's Finest"
The two security gaurds in "Holiday Knights
Stephen "Shifty" Drake
Annie
The taxi driver in "Beware the Creeper"
Barbara Gordon/Batgirl (dream)
Commisioner Gordon (dream)
Bane (dream)
Batman (dream)
Poison Ivy
Kathy Duquesne's mother (MOTB)

S:TAS
Jor-El
Lara
Sul-Van
Dr. Peterson
Toyman's father
Dr. Vale
the girl Metallo threw off the boat
Lois (alternate universe)
Lex (alternate universe)
the shopowner in "World's Finest"
the people in the buildings Joker bombed
the woman Detective Bowman killed
Detective Bowman
the two Intergang guys in the Hovertank Orion destroyed
Inspector Daniel Turpin
Jax-Ur and Mala
Green Lantern
the soldiers in "Legacy"

JL (season 1)
Senator Carter
the Martians, particularly J'onn's wife and kids
the evil aliens in "Secret Origins"
Orm
Felix Faust
the aliens in War World
the ship captain who saved Aresia
Aresia
The Justice Guild
the Nazi Green Lantern shot

I can't compile anymore off hand, because deaths were more numerous in BB and JLU. Can anyone help me out?

[Aldrius]

Poison Ivy was in Static Shock... =\.

Thus I don't think she died there.

[Antiyonder]

Batman Beyond:
Warren McGinnis
Harry Tully (Warren's assisstant, who was a test subject for nerve gas.)
Mr. Fixx
Dr. Stephanie Lake
Mr. Freeze
2-D Man, Freon and Magma
Talia (Mentaliy, as her father takes over her body.)

[John Cage]

JL Season Two:

Steppenwolf
Desaad
Darkseid (even if he did get revived down the line)
Professor Ivo
Penny Dee
Green Lantern Arkiss
Green Lantern Galius
Grundy
Morgan Edge, and presumably a bunch of his guards
At least four soldiers in "Eclipsed"
Cadmus Warden in "Wild Cards"

I'm sure there's more, but I'm drawing a blank.

Have a good day.
John Cage

[Wolf Boy2]

Poison Ivy was in Static Shock... =\.

Thus I don't think she died there.
I was still count Poison Ivy as a death, since she never resurfaced in TNBA. Just like Nora Fries counts, even though she was actually survived, because she was considered dead by everbody (including the production crew, lol) for about 3 or 4 years. Even if a death is undone (i.e. Darkseid in JL) it still counts because the crew originaly intended for them to stay dead.

Also we don't know exactly when Static Shock takes fits into the TNBA continuity. Although since the dialogue between Harley and Batman in JL "Wild Cards" references the events of TNBA "Mad Love" as the "last time" they met indicates that SS "Hard As Nails" happened back in TNBA time (possibly before Poison Ivy died).

[JEWCY]

JL Season Two:

Steppenwolf
Desaad
Darkseid (even if he did get revived down the line)
Professor Ivo
Penny Dee
Green Lantern Arkiss
Green Lantern Galius
Grundy
Morgan Edge, and presumably a bunch of his guards
At least four soldiers in "Eclipsed"
Cadmus Warden in "Wild Cards"


I was realizing that as I went through my season 2 DVD that every episode had at least one death in it

Twilight-Desaad, Steppenwolf, Darkseid
Tabula Rasa-Professor Ivo
Only A Dream-Penny Dee
Maid of Honor-King of Kasnia
Hearts and Minds-2 Green Lanterns, a few of Despero's soldiers
A Better World-Doomsday (labotomized is almost the same), Flash in AU
Eclipsed-Snake Men/Cave Men who fought in battle, soldiers in beginning
The Terror Beyond-Ichtultu, Grundy
The Secret Society-Morgan Edge
Hereafter-Superman
Wild Cards-Warden
Comfort and Joy-None
Starcrossed-sure some Hawk people parished

When Bruce Timm said he wanted to get darker and step the bar up, I guess deaths were a big part of what he meant. In almost every single episode (except the festive one) there was a death in the episode, something that was missing in about half of the episodes that season 1 gave us, which was very interesting. I am glad to see some of this because this is what makes the series effective is if a death occurs (Devil Ray later on probably a top moment in JLU)

[Cortez2301]

Ras al ghul died in BB.
All of Krypton died except for "you knew who".I think in B:TAS Penguin killed the guy who was not a henchman.One person died in "showdown".The one Jonah hex knocked unconscious.come to think of it,hex killed lots of people in general.Joker died obviously.

[tjrad815]

The ultramen die in JLU

[Wolf Boy2]

Starcrossed-sure some Hawk people parished
There were dead Gordanians.


Joker died obviously
Which time, lol?

[Simon Trent]

Which episode did Poison Ivy die in?

[Darknight66]

In "Chemistry" on the boat, though I'm not sure it really counts as a death, if they wanted to bring her back they could have and noone would have asked any questions, counting that as a death is like counting "The Laughing Fish" as a Joker death.

[Cortez2301]

There were dead Gordanians.


Which time, lol?Ha ha ha thats a good one.Just realized you meant almost all his appearances.Luthors "Wing",shark attack,chimney fall-in,ROTJ...The guy is like the boogeyman.He and Ras al ghul are always cheating death.

[Wolf Boy2]

In "Chemistry" on the boat, though I'm not sure it really counts as a death, if they wanted to bring her back they could have and noone would have asked any questions, counting that as a death is like counting "The Laughing Fish" as a Joker death.

But they never did bring her back, except for a Static Shock episode called "Hard as Nails" that could fit ANYWHERE into continuity.

And as I said before, the Batman/Harley dialogue in "Wild Cards" indicated that he had not seen Harley since "Mad Love."

Thus any Harley/Ivy team-up would have to have happened before "Mad Love", which was at the same time as "Chemistry" (suggesting that "Hard as Nails" may have happened prior to chemistry).

[Aldrius]

I think it's too obscure to count, personally... (it was about as dramatic as every other Joker or Clayface death in the series... (Except Mudslide of course, but Eric intended for that to be his final death, anyway...)

But eh, it's your list.

[Darknight66]

It wasn't exactly a dramatic finale "This is the last we will ever see of Ivy" kind of moment like it was to "Clayface in Mudslide" of Joker in "Return of The Joker". When they returned Clayface they knew his death in BTAS was so important that they would have to explain how he survived in "Growing Pains", but they could return Ivy and I doubt anyone would wonder about her death in "Chemistry". When they killed Clayface off they probably thought they would never use him again, I doubt they were thinking this with Ivy , I think they just thought of it as a "Joker in BTAS" moment. I think if TNBA lasted longer they would have returned Ivy.

[HaagenDas]

Wasnt Ivy in Arkham with most of the Bat Rogues in a JL episode? She was planting flowers in a garden or something. Or was that just a dream sequence?

[Grimlock]

Wow, pretty ambitious of you to do this. Not sure you could get everyone without watching every single episode again.

[Caswin]

Wasnt Ivy in Arkham with most of the Bat Rogues in a JL episode? She was planting flowers in a garden or something. Or was that just a dream sequence?That was in A Better World, in an alternate dimension. She hasn't appeared anytime recently on the League's home world.

[Greg Method]

Was it ever confirmed that Two-Face's Micky Dolenz thugs in "Two-Face" were in fact killed? I know "Wild Cartoon Kingdom" claimed that a long time ago, but really they didn't look any deader than any other goon that gets knocked out for effect.

[Darknight66]

When they are taken into the room and suddenly fall down, their eyes are open, it's impossible to get knocked out with your eyes open, however it is possible to be killed with your eyes open.

[Cortez2301]

IN B:TAS ,DR kane's men died when they fell of his plane in "zatanna".no one could have survived that fall.

[Simon Trent]

IN B:TAS ,DR kane's men died when they fell of his plane in "zatanna".no one could have survived that fall.

Not unless they were shooting up the same stuff as the Joker.


In "Chemistry" on the boat,

Awesome. I never saw that episode. Was that from TNBA?

[Fone Bone]

That was in A Better World, in an alternate dimension. She hasn't appeared anytime recently on the League's home world.You're forgetting Gotham Girls and Harley and Ivy. Ivy's still alive.

By the way, her appearance in Hard As Nails (written by Paul Dini for heaven's sake) takes place around the same time (but a little before) as the Justice League crossover. Static is wearing his newer costume. Batman is in his TNBA duds but he is in Mystery of the Batwoman too. It's possible that that's the costume he wears around Gotham.

Or it's possible that character designs mean Jack-Squat. Static's is one of the few exceptions (along with Supergirl's) in that the costume change was specifically mentioned in Static in Africa.

[Caswin]

You're forgetting Gotham Girls and Harley and Ivy. Ivy's still alive.While I acknowledge right now that I may be opening up a can of worms here, how do we know Gotham Girls - if it's canon in the first place (which I believe it to be) - takes place after TNBA? I've always assumed not, based on Catwoman retiring to Paris in Cult of the Cat...

[Wolf Boy2]

I was watching "Eclipsed", and I noticed that the Rush Limbaugh guy says that 50% of DCAU marriages end in death. Yowsa.

I guess all those exploding buildings do have people in them.:eek:

[Trevor Balena]

I was watching "Eclipsed", and I noticed that the Rush Limbaugh guy says that 50% of DCAU marriages end in death. Yowsa.

I guess all those exploding buildings do have people in them.:eek:
You're... kidding, right? It was a joke. What else could marriages end in but divorce and death?

[veemonjosh]

Return of the Joker - Numerous civilians from the beam "Joker" was using.

[Darknight66]

Awesome. I never saw that episode. Was that from TNBA?

Yep, you can see it by purchasing a copy of BTAS vol 4, it costs about $30.00 but it's worth it , here's a link for more info on the ep

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tnba/episodes/22chemistry/

[Fone Bone]

While I acknowledge right now that I may be opening up a can of worms here, how do we know Gotham Girls - if it's canon in the first place (which I believe it to be) - takes place after TNBA? I've always assumed not, based on Catwoman retiring to Paris in Cult of the Cat...Because the Mayor of Gotham in Gotham Girl's Pave Paradise (which stars Ivy) is NOT Hamilton Hill, even though Hill showed up twice on TNBA in Over the Edge and, yes, Chemistry. More than likely Catwoman just took a vacation to Paris or planned on retiring there but returned to Gotham to waltz more with Batman when she got bored. Which sounds more likely and in character for her than just laying low for the rest of her life.

I suppose a nitpicker could point out that it was never MENTIONED that Hill was still the mayor in Chemistry and Over the Edge was only a dream sequence, but seriously, the reason Occam's Razor exists is because it makes sense.

Continuity is your friend.

Back to lurk mode.

[Wolf Boy2]

I always found Gotham Girls to be lame... thus non-canon.

Besides, it isn't TMS animation. Can we really count an episode that is non-TMS???:D

Heck, its not even koko.

Death to Akom, Jade and Sunrise.:p

[Caswin]

What about the terrorist from World's Finest? He was flying out the airlock and met Superman throwing a punch. We never did see him again...

[SuperBat]

Who can tell me which episode/movie in the Timmverse has the highest death toll? It's pretty obvious, and has already been mentioned.

[Zabuza]

Who can tell me which episode/movie in the Timmverse has the highest death toll? It's pretty obvious, and has already been mentioned.

Over the Edge...? :shrug:

[Trevor Balena]

Except nobody really died in "Over The Edge".

He probably means "Last Son of Krypton, Part 1".

[Zabuza]

Except nobody really died in "Over The Edge".

He probably means "Last Son of Krypton, Part 1".

silly me. :D

[SuperBat]

Except nobody really died in "Over The Edge".

He probably means "Last Son of Krypton, Part 1".
Yeah, that's it. It never really occured to me until just a week or two ago, but that one episode killed far, far, far more people than all the others combined and multiplied by... a million, even.

[Wolf Boy2]

I can't stand the cop out in "In Blackest Night", when Superman discovers that the planet wasn't destroyed after all. Gee, how convenient.

And we are supposed to believe that no one else ever noticed that the orbits had not shifted?!?

That was silly. Superfriends silly. Star Wars Episode One silly. Critters silly. Superman's Pal silly. I've got Batman in my Basement silly. Ick.

[Zabuza]

I can't stand the cop out in "In Blackest Night", when Superman discovers that the planet wasn't destroyed after all. Gee, how convenient.

And we are supposed to believe that no one else ever noticed that the orbits had not shifted?!?

That was silly. Superfriends silly. Star Wars Episode One silly. Critters silly. Superman's Pal silly. I've got Batman in my Basement silly. Ick.

dude, its like you read my mind and then post my thoughts. :eek: :D

[Cortez2301]

What about the terrorist from World's Finest? He was flying out the airlock and met Superman throwing a punch. We never did see him again...hah,you wish!Superman does anything but kill.Hes even always careful about throwing punches but that terrorist is probably going to be in hospital for some time.

[Bones Justice]

Here's some I didn't see mentioned:

Superman TAS
The Main Man - everyone of Lobo's kind except him; the Gatherer (or what-ever his name was)

Batman Beyond
April Moon - I doubt the doctor let that guy live in the end

Terrible Trio - one of the flying criminals in the intro crashes into a high-rise and explodes. No way anybody could survive that one.

Static Shock
Virgil's mother (she was alive in the comic, BTW)

Justice League
Secret Origins - some of the alien invaders; lots of Martians; probably the Mars astronaut that became a senator.

The Savage Time - Superman kills at least one Nazi pilot; planes are shot down and not all of them showed parachutes

Hereafter - everyone on Earth except Vandal Savage and Superman

Justice League Unlimited
Fearful Symmetry - General Hardcastle

The Great Brain Robbery - Dr. Polaris

Alive! - Grodd and everyone that sided with him except Killer Frost

Destroyer - Lightray; lots of para-demons (at least one shown decapitated); probably Lex and Darkseid

I forget the names of the episodes but Solomon Grundy is killed (twice, plus he was dead already). Also, Chtulu (or what-ever) is killed by Hawkgirl as are a ton of other-dimensional beings. In the first episode with Morgan LeFay, a lot of demons are killed on the Watchtower.

I would still like to conclude that a lot of civilians were killed in Flashpoint when the Watchtower laser blew up that city. The crater was huge! But Flash reports in that no one was killed shortly afterwards. Still, I wonder if even the Flash with his super-speed could be sure that everyone was accounted for in the short time after the attack. Maybe he just meant that there were no dead bodies to be found and didn't realize that some people had been incinerated.

[Aldrius]

If the blast from the Watchtower had even cost a SINGLE life do you think that the Justice League would have been forgiven by the government so easily? =\

[Caswin]

hah,you wish!Superman does anything but kill.Hes even always careful about throwing punches but that terrorist is probably going to be in hospital for some time.Hey, who said I wished? He was already moving at a high speed and met Superman's fist not catching but punching him. The man literally shouldn't even have a head anymore.

[Cortez2301]

Hey, who said I wished? He was already moving at a high speed and met Superman's fist not catching but punching him. The man literally shouldn't even have a head anymore.You know I was kidding man.Well maybe the guys head was badly messed up but I don't know about him killing him.Superman did kill people in the savage time episodes but i'm not sure about this.Maybe you're right.

[Wolf Boy2]

I would still like to conclude that a lot of civilians were killed in Flashpoint when the Watchtower laser blew up that city. The crater was huge! But Flash reports in that no one was killed shortly afterwards. Still, I wonder if even the Flash with his super-speed could be sure that everyone was accounted for in the short time after the attack. Maybe he just meant that there were no dead bodies to be found and didn't realize that some people had been incinerated.
Nobody was dead in the area where Flash was. But the earth quake was felt for hundreds of miles. Look, we saw cars WITH DRIVERS INSIDE getting destroyed. That kinda proves that innocent people died.

Also, after it ended, everyone knew that Luthor fired the gun, not the JLU.

[Neo Ultra Mike]

Nobody was dead in the area where Flash was. But the earth quake was felt for hundreds of miles. Look, we saw cars WITH DRIVERS INSIDE getting destroyed. That kinda proves that innocent people died.

Well whether they died or not I really doubt it would of been mentioned over the course of the show. Afterall even with how few "restrictions" it was given I doubt CN would just allow the beam to incinterate an entire town's worth of people, even if it was Luthor's fault. Thus why they had to add in the "everyone survived" line.

Although it's not strictly DCAU, there were a couple of deaths in Teen Titans.

Slade, "Aftershock Part Two" (Was Brought Back By Trigion Later but he still died. Also Terra would of died if CN weren't so strict on showing a female "hero" character biting the big one, thus the turn to stone plot cheat).
Trigion ("The End, Part Three")
Red Star ("Snowblind" though he did come back in "Titans Together" he was probably meant to "die" at the end of the ep. Simiarly Wildbeast and Hotspot came back when they appeared to have "die" in "Trust").

[Wolf Boy2]

Also Terra would of died if CN weren't so strict on showing a female "hero" character biting the big one, thus the turn to stone plot cheat).
Why couldn't a female die?

Come to think of it, there were very few female deaths in the DCAU too.

[Bones Justice]

If the blast from the Watchtower had even cost a SINGLE life do you think that the Justice League would have been forgiven by the government so easily? =\

Well, they did give themselves up except Batman. I guess we'll never know if they truly had their day in court but they didn't escape custody. They were let go. I doubt Amanda Waller implicated herself but I don't doubt she rolled over on Luthor to get them released. She needed the backup, anyways.

And, as Wolf Boy2 pointed out, the government knew that Luthor fired the gun. If someone steals your car then gets drunk and runs over somebody, the law doesn't hold you responsible for killing someone.

Also, I believe the League dismantled the space gun after it was all over (ie, at the end of the Cadmus arc). Maybe they did it voluntarily as a show of good faith; or perhaps, it was a condition of their release.

[Aldrius]

And, as Wolf Boy2 pointed out, the government knew that Luthor fired the gun. If someone steals your car then gets drunk and runs over somebody, the law doesn't hold you responsible for killing someone.

No, but if someone snatches the machine gun you've got in your closet and goes on a killing spree, you don't think you're accountable?

Personally, I'd hate it if the league's space gun had actually killed people and they had gotten pardoned... but if that's the case, then I guess that's the case.

[Bones Justice]

No, but if someone snatches the machine gun you've got in your closet and goes on a killing spree, you don't think you're accountable?


No, they committed the crimes (theft, murder), not me. I would be responsible for my machine gun if I left it out for someone to take. But if someone broke into my home? And broke into my gun safe? Why blame me for someone else's criminal acts? I had acted responsibly with my machine gun by locking it up.

Likewise, the Justice League had security in place for the space gun. Heck, the security was so high that they figured only a few people on Earth might be able to hack in to it. Luthor had to break in to get control of it. He was the one responsible for any deaths caused, not the League.



Personally, I'd hate it if the league's space gun had actually killed people and they had gotten pardoned... but if that's the case, then I guess that's the case.

What about Superman, though? By your logic, he should be held responsible for the deaths he caused in Legacy. Forget the fact that Darkseid had brainwashed him in to doing it, right?

Or how about Batman killing Devil Ray in Dead Reckoning? Should he be held responsible since he was pulling the trigger? Nevermind the fact that a ghost had taken over his body.

Look, if I had to be held responsible for criminals who commit crimes with things they have stolen from me, I'd have to give up more things than owning guns. I'd have to give up my car, my kitchen knives, my axe for cutting firewood, matches, gasoline, prescription medication, etc. True, you have to act responsibly with potentially dangerous items like bullets or gasoline. But no security is perfect.

It's the same thing with Superman or Batman. They can only take so many precautions not to be brainwashed or possessed. They can't be held responsible for their actions in those cases.

[Wolf Boy2]

Who can tell me which episode/movie in the Timmverse has the highest death toll? It's pretty obvious, and has already been mentioned.
Actually, Secret Origins had more. The entire Martian planet plus the astronaut and all of those aliens the league melted.

[SuperBat]

Actually, Secret Origins had more. The entire Martian planet plus the astronaut and all of those aliens the league melted.
Good point. I didn't think about it because it was a flashback. However, there's no way of telling how big Mars and Krypton are in comparison to one another. My personal opinion is that Krypton would outweigh it considerably, but who knows?

[Cortez2301]

Just in case this hasn't been mentioned:
TNBA-Holiday Knights:DR John Ericsson.He was gassed to death or something like that.They didn't show is lower body so he could've died the samee way Bonk died in BB:ROTJ.

[Gorthaur]

The Great Brain Robbery - Dr. PolarisIf that was the intent, as it certainly appeared at first, from the sharp metal shards coming at the camera from Dr. Polaris' perspective, they probably shouldn't have cut to show him alive and unharmed other than the metal now wrapped around him to restrict movement.

[Captain Clown]

If that was the intent, as it certainly appeared at first, from the sharp metal shards coming at the camera from Dr. Polaris' perspective, they probably shouldn't have cut to show him alive and unharmed other than the metal now wrapped around him to restrict movement.

The shards didn't kill him, but it doesn't seem too likely that Luthor would let him live. I say he got executed after the end of the episode.

[Wolf Boy2]

Candace in B:TAS "Bane" obviously died.

Batman gives Rupert Thorne the tape of Candace plotting to kill Thorne, and then you hear Thorne yell "CANDICE!!!"

And she is never seen again.

She is so dead.

[Bones Justice]

The shards didn't kill him, but it doesn't seem too likely that Luthor would let him live. I say he got executed after the end of the episode.

That's exactly what I meant. We never see the good doctor again after that. Luthor needed to make an example of him. Besides, I'll bet that he ticked off Luthor so much that Luthor would have killed him anyways.

Some of the deaths were obvious but not shown, like General Hardcastle's or Lightray's deaths. In either case, their killers could not risk allowing them to live. The network censors could not show their deaths on screen but the intention was clear enough.

[Simon Trent]

Candace in B:TAS "Bane" obviously died.

Batman gives Rupert Thorne the tape of Candace plotting to kill Thorne, and then you hear Thorne yell "CANDICE!!!"

And she is never seen again.

She is so dead.

Neither is 'Grace' from 'Two-Face'.

[Wolf Boy2]

Neither is 'Grace' from 'Two-Face'.
Yeah, but she could've gone into Wittnesses Protection or something. She wasn't IN THORNES OFFICE, and she was never caught PLOTTING TO KILL THORNE.


Some of the deaths were obvious but not shown, like General Hardcastle's or Lightray's deaths.
Lightray's death was shown. He got shot in the back.

[Redemption]

Somehow, I find it unlikley that some second-rate villain would be able to actually kill a New-God at all, never mind in a single blast.

[murmur]

And, as Wolf Boy2 pointed out, the government knew that Luthor fired the gun. If someone steals your car then gets drunk and runs over somebody, the law doesn't hold you responsible for killing someone.Actually, that analogy does not completely hold. Any dangerous device that doesn't enjoy some kind of government immunity (that Watchtower beam more than qualifies) can impute strict liability on its manufacturers. Products liability law doesn't normally deal with devices one designs for oneself, but the mere maintenance of such an unusual and dangerous device should certainly qualify as a dangerous activity that still falls under the regime of strict liability. This means that the original JL 7 (among any others in the JLU that had some authority over the device, if any) would be civilly responsible for any harm that came from it, even if Luthor messed with the controls. Honestly, they should have seen something like that coming anyway, which means they are also probably liable in negligence. All this being said, I'm not sure how criminal law would deal with the situation, but I'm guessing that treason would apply. I'm also guessing that they simply got a pardon.

As to the civil liability, they were very lucky that the guy that messed with the controls is just as loaded as Batman. If someone that couldn't pay for it did that, they would have to pay for every ounce of damage that resulted, including monetary relief for the wrongful deaths of anyone in those cars. As it stands, a jury would still be legally entitled to find them comparatively negligent or at least jointly liable for some percentage of the damages (less than Luthor though, obviously). And if a jury was pissed enough (Hawkgirl and Superman skeptics, perhaps), they could probably lay it in to the JL with punitive damages, which would almost inherently disrupt the finances of the JL no matter how must money they have (punitive damages are based on how much it would take to make the defendant hurt and would probably be legally justified in this extreme situation). In that case, Bruce Wayne would have to come up with something especially creative to avoid revealing the JL's financial sources. What an actual jury would do though, I have little idea--it would make a fun scene.
Also, I believe the League dismantled the space gun after it was all over (ie, at the end of the Cadmus arc). Maybe they did it voluntarily as a show of good faith; or perhaps, it was a condition of their release.I'd bet on both!

[HaagenDas]

I dont think the legal argument holds. Liability results if the machine itself was defective. There was nothing defective about the watchtower gun. It operated normally. If they had some type of warning label "dont f--k around with this or i will kill people" then they are in the clear.

It's like as if an American soldier commits torture against someone. The soldier is in fact a weapon and is not allowed to take decisions for himself unless empowered to do so. If the soldier commits the torture, it is all on the person giving the order (in this case the soldier itself, in the DCAU case, Lex). Now if the soldier had higher ups order torture (like a unit commander, someone in the general staff or civillian chain of command including secretaries of the services, sec def and or President) then it would be on them. The JL did not order the firing of the weapon, Lex did.

It can be considered an act of war if the JL did not cooperate. It is the game these nations who sponsor terror play all day. Groups like Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, Jaish-e-Mohammed et al operate from countries that have terrorists roaming freely and at many times with the consent of the government. When they attack, the govt says "I didnt do it" and wont cooperate. The JL7 did cooperate (sans Batman) so it was not considered an act of war in the end by the JL upon the US.

[Simon Trent]

Personally, I wouldn't have pointed the space gun at the Earth in the first place. To drag out another analogy, that's like pointing a machine gun at someone and having another person come up and pull the trigger.

[Cortez2301]

Dr vale died in "The way of all flesh"(S:TAS).Also that scientist in "A little piece of home".

[HaagenDas]

Personally, I wouldn't have pointed the space gun at the Earth in the first place. To drag out another analogy, that's like pointing a machine gun at someone and having another person come up and pull the trigger.That analogy doesnt work here. The JL was not pointing the gun at Earth's population to keep them in check.

Tho personally I would never have had given the ok for the project if I was a Leaguer. They justified it with the whole "it could have made our lives easier during the whole Thannagarian invasion" statement.What are the chances of an exact scenario like that ever happenning again? Very little obviously, so why not allocate resources to areas where they could be optimized? Now if the weapon was able to point at extra-terrestrial objects then I would have understood. It would have been much more functional to protect Earth and would not have been thought of as hostile by humans like General Eiling.

[Trevor Balena]

Tho personally I would never have had given the ok for the project if I was a Leaguer. They justified it with the whole "it could have made our lives easier during the whole Thannagarian invasion" statement.What are the chances of an exact scenario like that ever happenning again?
And yet, the BFG did come in handy, in "Dark Heart". The gun had been operational for what, less than a year? And they needed it there.

Personally, I have no problem with the BFG. Sure it was overridden by Luthor, but how is that any different than how Superman himself was taken over by Darkseid? Nobody argues that Superman shouldn't be allowed to exist because of that... well, except Cadmus.

[murmur]

I dont think the legal argument holds. Liability results if the machine itself was defective. There was nothing defective about the watchtower gun. It operated normally. If they had some type of warning label "dont f--k around with this or i will kill people" then they are in the clear.Good point--I spoke of the gun's manufacture and that was misleading, because, as you correctly imply, you can't have a manufacturing defect for something that operated pretty much exactly as intended, or at least that would have operated as intended if not for a third party's interference. A case might be made out in design defect, if the product itself is just too harmful for its benefits or could have been made safer. But the JLU did seem to save the world with the thing in "Dark Heart," and I highly doubt they used anything but the best safety devices they could. However, strict liability certainly still applies to the caretaking of such a dangerous object, regardless of whether the object is somehow defective. Nobody can get away with using dynamite for a living and blowing up someone's house, even if they used all the care in the world to avoid doing so.


It's like as if an American soldier commits torture against someone. The soldier is in fact a weapon and is not allowed to take decisions for himself unless empowered to do so. If the soldier commits the torture, it is all on the person giving the order (in this case the soldier itself, in the DCAU case, Lex). Now if the soldier had higher ups order torture (like a unit commander, someone in the general staff or civillian chain of command including secretaries of the services, sec def and or President) then it would be on them. The JL did not order the firing of the weapon, Lex did.Ah, there's the big difference. The JL is not a military body, it's its own organization, and an international one at that. But if it harms American civilians, then it is subject to normal U.S. laws, criminal and civil. The military has its own special laws and to be honest, I'm not that familiar with them. But they don't apply to the JL. I don't know about soldiers, but normal adult civilians are always legally responsible for their own misconduct. In practicality, only the rich get sued when there are a bunch of people responsible for the same damages. And the poor are more likely to answer criminally. The JL obviously fits more into the former category, so it's lucky they have someone else rich to blame.


It can be considered an act of war if the JL did not cooperate. It is the game these nations who sponsor terror play all day. Groups like Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, Jaish-e-Mohammed et al operate from countries that have terrorists roaming freely and at many times with the consent of the government. When they attack, the govt says "I didnt do it" and wont cooperate. The JL7 did cooperate (sans Batman) so it was not considered an act of war in the end by the JL upon the US.Yeah, that's obviously the bigger issue. The US could have constitutionally declared war on the JL at just about any time, but would they? Who would win? I thought "A Better World" answered that one...

[HaagenDas]

Ah, there's the big difference. The JL is not a military body, it's its own organization, and an international one at that. But if it harms American civilians, then it is subject to normal U.S. laws, criminal and civil. The military has its own special laws and to be honest, I'm not that familiar with them. But they don't apply to the JL. I don't know about soldiers, but normal adult civilians are always legally responsible for their own misconduct. In practicality, only the rich get sued when there are a bunch of people responsible for the same damages. And the poor are more likely to answer criminally. The JL obviously fits more into the former category, so it's lucky they have someone else rich to blame.
My point in bringing in a military example obviously was confusing. I was just relating the soldier to any type of weapon instead of a human being. Weapons themselves arent necessarily illegal (not all of them) but using them in an improper manner obviously is.

If that weapon (my example was the soldier) is ordered to do something illegal, the person giving the order is held liable. If the soldier does it on his or her own whim (as what it looks like with Abu Grahib) then the person giving the order is the soldier himself.

You highlight misconduct and I think that shuts the case right there abdicating the JL of any responsibility. The JL did everything they could to stop it, and when it happened, they did everything they could to cooperate. They would not be able to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed the action criminally. There was no intent. Your case about civil trial has a good shot though, because there can be an argument for negligence but it probably wouldnt hold up with a jury deciding it and assuming innocence before guilt.

[HaagenDas]

And yet, the BFG did come in handy, in "Dark Heart". The gun had been operational for what, less than a year? And they needed it there.

Personally, I have no problem with the BFG. Sure it was overridden by Luthor, but how is that any different than how Superman himself was taken over by Darkseid? Nobody argues that Superman shouldn't be allowed to exist because of that... well, except Cadmus.Why couldnt Fate just transport the Dark Heart to another dimension? Or Superman use the Phantom Zone projector?

Now that would be something...the Dark Heart merging with General Traxur and Doomsday and returning to Earth to destroy Superman.:cool:

[Shadow_X]

Hi,

I don´t know if you already mentioned these ones:

STAS:

Apokolips Now! Part 1

Bruno Mannheim
And the scientists in the nuclear plant

*The scientists I´m not sure if they were killed by the parademons, but if they didn´t killed them, they sure died in the explosion.

And what about Dr. Milo in Doomsday Sanction, also in the episode "I´m Legion", all the Hawk Squadron(they didn´t die in that episode, but they were dead by then), well except the one that helped Shayera, Flash and Fire.

I check the messages but I didn´t see this characters, if I missed them sorry :anime:

Later...

[murmur]

My point in bringing in a military example obviously was confusing. I was just relating the soldier to any type of weapon instead of a human being. Weapons themselves arent necessarily illegal (not all of them) but using them in an improper manner obviously is.

If that weapon (my example was the soldier) is ordered to do something illegal, the person giving the order is held liable. If the soldier does it on his or her own whim (as what it looks like with Abu Grahib) then the person giving the order is the soldier himself.

You highlight misconduct and I think that shuts the case right there abdicating the JL of any responsibility. The JL did everything they could to stop it, and when it happened, they did everything they could to cooperate. They would not be able to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed the action criminally. There was no intent.Yeah, I agree there's no intent to use the beam. The problem is that they did intend to commit acts that could probably be construed as treason (at least the U.S. members of the JL, which is what, most of them?). Also, like I said, they probably did commit a host of statutory strict liability offenses with regard to security and airspace. They don't have to prove intent for that sort of thing. I don't know exactly what kind of sentencing they'd get for that though.
Your case about civil trial has a good shot though, because there can be an argument for negligence but it probably wouldnt hold up with a jury deciding it and assuming innocence before guilt.Negligence could go either way, but strict liability for maintaining a dangerous device would get them for sure, as a matter of law, which means the jury doesn't get to decide that they're not liable. The only thing a jury would decide is how to apportion the damages. Like I said, this is why they're lucky it was Lex involved and not a more likable, less rich fellow.

[HaagenDas]

They should sentence Batman and GL to do a karaoke duet. That would be a horrible punishment for the two of them.

[OmegaPaladin]

It's like as if an American soldier commits torture against someone. The soldier is in fact a weapon and is not allowed to take decisions for himself unless empowered to do so. If the soldier commits the torture, it is all on the person giving the order (in this case the soldier itself, in the DCAU case, Lex). Now if the soldier had higher ups order torture (like a unit commander, someone in the general staff or civillian chain of command including secretaries of the services, sec def and or President) then it would be on them. The JL did not order the firing of the weapon, Lex did.

Soldiers in the US and most other Western militaries are most emphatically not weapons, in the sense that they are expected to disobey illegal orders. A soldier is required to obey all lawful orders, including orders that will result in the soldier's death. However, a soldier is not bound by an illegal order, such as an order to torture a POW. While the giver of the order bears responsibility, the soldier who performs an illegal act can be held responsible under the UCMJ.

The beam is a device. The responsibility for its use depends entirely on the user. Consider the case of the nuclear reaction cancelling device in Eclipsed, the develops are clearly not at fault that someone sought to use the device to end all life on Earth.


It can be considered an act of war if the JL did not cooperate. It is the game these nations who sponsor terror play all day. Groups like Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, Jaish-e-Mohammed et al operate from countries that have terrorists roaming freely and at many times with the consent of the government. When they attack, the govt says "I didnt do it" and wont cooperate. The JL7 did cooperate (sans Batman) so it was not considered an act of war in the end by the JL upon the US.

Actually, the matter depends entirely on opinion in the US and to a lesser extent worldwide. International law is not the same as criminal law, and is much more arbitrary.

[Bones Justice]

Personally, I wouldn't have pointed the space gun at the Earth in the first place. To drag out another analogy, that's like pointing a machine gun at someone and having another person come up and pull the trigger.

Where would you point it, though? Standard safe gun practice is to point a weapon at a neutral target as opposed to pointing towards the unknown. We know that the weapon was “pointed down” (ie, at the Earth) according to Cadmus but I doubt they had it aimed at a populated area; that was all Luthor’s doing. I suppose they could have pointed it towards “outer space” but since there is a lot more unexpected space traffic in the DCAU that might be more careless. Extraterrestrials approaching Earth for the first time would be understandably nervous about an orbiting space gun pointed towards them or at least “outwards”. We’ve seen the League helping alien worlds before so they probably expect some space travelers from time to time, also.

Anyways, I doubt it would have mattered where they had pointed it. It didn’t go off accidentally.



Tho personally I would never have had given the ok for the project if I was a Leaguer.

Yeah, I don’t know how they convinced all of them to go along with it, either. I suppose the Thanagarian invasion and occupation was harder on everyone than we saw. I don’t normally care for prequels (because we know the outcome) but this would make an interesting part of any movie set between JL and JLU. Just how did they vote to have a permanent weapon pointed at the Earth? Maybe Batman just did it without telling anyone until the weapon was built. Batman’s kind of odd about guns anyways; explosives, missiles, and lasers are okay but “regular” guns are not for some reason.



Good point. I didn't think about it because it was a flashback. However, there's no way of telling how big Mars and Krypton are in comparison to one another. My personal opinion is that Krypton would outweigh it considerably, but who knows?

Agreed, we’ll never know which was more populated. Though I still would vote that more were killed in Hereafter (ie, the entire population of Earth) than the other two episodes. Krypton and Mars were more far more advanced than Earth which might mean they had lower populations due to smaller families and more off-world colonization. Then again, they’re alien worlds so who knows?



Lightray's death was shown. He got shot in the back.

Well, maybe, but I never thought that first attack was enough to kill a New God. We’ve seen other lesser beings get zapped that way and they survived. I just figured that was how they got the drop on Lightray. I don’t think they could show Luthor actually murdering Lightray on screen but we knew it was coming to that. Luthor didn’t bring Lightray with them since he could have told the League what really happened; likewise, they didn’t want Lightray getting back to the rest of the New Gods with that information, either.

It’s kind of like Grodd’s demise. I love the idea that he’s space-toast now but they never actually showed it on-screen. I would feel extremely cheated if they ever brought Grodd back but we never actually saw him die.

We were also led to believe that Luthor had died right after reviving Darkseid only to see him alive somehow shortly afterwards. We didn’t get to see how he survived until the next episode, though.

Come to think of it, how many deaths were actually shown on-screen? For example, Dan Turpin was killed on-screen. Solomon Grundy was killed on-screen (I think) twice, and off-screen once. Darkseid’s first death was sort of on-screen (the explosion) but we never saw the remains; his second death was also unclear. I’m sure it’s easier for the writers to get away with killing people when they don’t make it clear that someone actually died.

[Simon Trent]

Where would you point it, though?

Three words; retractible space gun. I'm not saying tha gun was a bad idea, I'm just saying that having it out all the time was a bad idea. Either way, people are going to get nervous and since there doesn't seem to be an exceedingly long, loud activating sequence the Justice League can't stop it from firing if it were hijacked no matter how fast they work. My idea would have been to have the gun actually fold into the Watchtower so that you have to be standing next to it with a team of technicians in order to take it out and fire it.


Yeah, but she could've gone into Wittnesses Protection or something. She wasn't IN THORNES OFFICE, and she was never caught PLOTTING TO KILL THORNE.


Why?

Sure, I mean, she's probably not dead but she definitely never showed up again even in other Two-Face episodes. Candace was definitely screwed, sure, but she's not the only one who never showed up again.

[HaagenDas]

Soldiers in the US and most other Western militaries are most emphatically not weapons, in the sense that they are expected to disobey illegal orders. A soldier is required to obey all lawful orders, including orders that will result in the soldier's death. However, a soldier is not bound by an illegal order, such as an order to torture a POW. While the giver of the order bears responsibility, the soldier who performs an illegal act can be held responsible under the UCMJ.Correct, but military personnel are considered weapons. Hence the name G.I. which stands for Government Issued. When someone takes the oath of service, they give up many of their Constitutional rights. You are correct about military obligated to not follow orders that are illegal. My whole point was using that analogy of the soldier taking an illegal action WITHOUT authorization from the higher ups. If there is no proof of the higher ups ordering it, they cannot be held liable. The JL did not order the firing of the weapon, so likewise, they couldnt be held liable.


The beam is a device. The responsibility for its use depends entirely on the user. Consider the case of the nuclear reaction cancelling device in Eclipsed, the develops are clearly not at fault that someone sought to use the device to end all life on Earth.But the JL didnt use the device improperly, Lex did. There maybe some culpability with the security procedures but not with the actual firing.


Actually, the matter depends entirely on opinion in the US and to a lesser extent worldwide. International law is not the same as criminal law, and is much more arbitrary.International law does not hold host nations accountable for acts of war which people in that nation mount independently of that state's military i.e. the terrorist example. The Bush Administration after 9-11 got around this by making it apart of American foreign policy to follow the Bush Doctrine, which goes after nations who harbor terrorists and holds the nations themselves accountable. To the skeptic, the JL could have just turned the blind eye and LET someone "take over" the watchtower controls and fire. The JL7 went through efforts to make sure that everyone knew where they stood and that they would never misuse their power.

[Bones Justice]

Three words; retractible space gun. I'm not saying tha gun was a bad idea, I'm just saying that having it out all the time was a bad idea. Either way, people are going to get nervous and since there doesn't seem to be an exceedingly long, loud activating sequence the Justice League can't stop it from firing if it were hijacked no matter how fast they work. My idea would have been to have the gun actually fold into the Watchtower so that you have to be standing next to it with a team of technicians in order to take it out and fire it.
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=white]


I suppose that depends upon your opinion of safe. For example, if you were going to carry a gun to defend yourself, would you carry it loaded under your coat or unloaded and locked in the trunk of your car? The former makes you safer, the latter makes others safer. The problem is that the others you are making safer by having it locked in the trunk might be the very people you need to protect yourself against.

Same goes for the space gun in the Watchtower. While it might be safer for everyone if it's slow to use, it's also less effective when they need it quickly. If they could always anticipate needing the space gun far in advance, I doubt it would even be necessary considering their other resources. As I recall, Batman crashed the original Watchtower because they were out of time.

I don't doubt they could have made a weapon like you suggested. They've had more exotic devices than a retractable laser in the show. Besides, it's fiction so they could do what-ever they want. The fact that they made it as readily available means they probably intended to have it immediately ready to defend the Earth rather than after a long, complicated delay.

[Cortez2301]

How can lightray die?He is a god like Orion.No way.

[Knight]

How can lightray die?He is a god like Orion.No way. Gods can die as proven by Darkseid.

[Cortez2301]

Gods can die as proven by Darkseid.But did darkseid really die?Who knows what that anti life equation did?Besides lightray got one blast.Not enough to kill him.

[Trevor Balena]

But did darkseid really die?Who knows what that anti life equation did?Besides lightray got one blast.Not enough to kill him.
I believe Knight is referring to the fact that, by his own admission, Darkseid died at the end of "Twilight". New Gods can die. That isn't even a question. I do agree, though, that it doesn't seem like being shot in the back should be enough to kill Lightray.

[Cortez2301]

I believe Knight is referring to the fact that, by his own admission, Darkseid died at the end of "Twilight". New Gods can die. That isn't even a question. I do agree, though, that it doesn't seem like being shot in the back should be enough to kill Lightray.Oh thats whta he meant.Sorry Knight I thought you meant in "destroyer".Well I guess they could die in a very powerful death.Lightray however will live.

[HaagenDas]

Lex et al just probably left him floating in space.

[Wade Kruse]

"And as I said before, the Batman/Harley dialogue in "Wild Cards" indicated that he had not seen Harley since "Mad Love.""

No, not really. All their dialogue did was vaguely bring up Harley's past abuse at Joker's hands. There was nothing there that stated Bats and her hadn't ran into each other, or that harley and Ivy have not been working together.

I really, really don't think Ivy died. The Static appearance seems pretty clearly set after TNBA IMO...plus, come on...like Ivy wouldn't have had a bajillion ways to save herself with all her freaky powers. Not to mention her "seaweed" was still around. This was when Ivy was turning into plant-girl...I doubt a little water's going to stop her.

BTW, anyone else notice that in Chemistry, puny little Ivy actually had Bats PINNED DOWN and was STRANGLING him? Her...transformation must have come with some increased strength/toughness.

[Bones Justice]

Lex et al just probably left him floating in space.

Can a New God survive in outer space indefinitely?

I don’t think Lex would have just let him go. He’d be concerned about Lightray telling the League or the New Gods about what happened. After the events of Alive!, I wouldn’t be surprised if Lex just killed Lightray. I agree that the shot in the back wasn’t enough but once they had Lightray down, nothing would stop them from finishing the job.

[murmur]

Correct, but military personnel are considered weapons. Hence the name G.I. which stands for Government Issued. When someone takes the oath of service, they give up many of their Constitutional rights. You are correct about military obligated to not follow orders that are illegal. My whole point was using that analogy of the soldier taking an illegal action WITHOUT authorization from the higher ups. If there is no proof of the higher ups ordering it, they cannot be held liable. The JL did not order the firing of the weapon, so likewise, they couldnt be held liable.You don't have to order someone to misuse your weapon to be held liable. The JL was responsible for the mainentance of that weapon no matter what kind of care they exercized or whose intent governed the firing of the weapon.


But the JL didnt use the device improperly, Lex did. There maybe some culpability with the security procedures but not with the actual firing.Ah, culpability is a different story. You're right that they probably couldn't get a criminal charge like battery or murder directly for the firing (maybe manslaughter though, depending on the state they fired the gun into).

I agree about Batman and GL's punishment though. The problem is that it would be a reward for the rest of the JL.:)

[HaagenDas]

This legal talk made me wonder about jurisdiction of people...

Most of the League are humans or citizens of Earth. They thus are subject to the laws of the land they come from one would think.

In real life, if there was a vigilante who went around doing what Batman did, and he was captured by the govt, he would have his identity exposed. Technically, he and all the human beings are breaking the law by being vigilantes.

In the US, it is the state's duty is to handle law and order, not the private citizen. You nor I can go patrolling the streets with arms and take part in gun fights, etc trying to do the job of the police.

Then we think of Superman. He was born on Krypton, but sent to Earth as a baby. Is he an American citizen? Or just a permanent resident? Either way, since Earth is his adopted home and the US his adopted country, he should be subject to US laws. The above applies to him too.

There are of course foreign natonals. Ice is from Sweden. Fire is from Brazil. Dr. Light is from Japan. Diana is from Themyscara. Aquaman from Atlantis. Those respective nations should deal with vigilantes as they deem fit. In Aquaman's case, he is the state, so the point is moot.

Now, with extra terrestrial life (Martian Manhunter, Hawkgirl, Orion, Starman, etc) they are not citizens of Earth. One can argue MM and HG are refugees, thus subject to Earth's laws. The others arent.

I guess this rambling has come to one question...who do Orion and Starman answer to as the higher authority? Are they liable under American law?

Which brings up another question...why the hell doesnt Earth have one government if they know aliens exist and are ready to destroy them?

Just throwin things out there.

[Trevor Balena]

I guess this rambling has come to one question...who do Orion and Starman answer to as the higher authority? Are they liable under American law?
Well, Starman is the ruler of his planet -- Throneworld. And Orion is as close to royalty as you get on New Genesis, being the adopted son of Highfather. So I doubt either of them need to worry about being punished if they step on too many toes.

[Bones Justice]

This legal talk made me wonder about jurisdiction of people...

Most of the League are humans or citizens of Earth. They thus are subject to the laws of the land they come from one would think.

Interesting subject. I think their citizenship would not be as relevant as the country they are operating in, though. For example, if Batman (a USA citizen) goes to Japan, he’d have to abide by their laws. When they are operating from the Watchtower, they are probably only really subject to international law.




In real life, if there was a vigilante who went around doing what Batman did, and he was captured by the govt, he would have his identity exposed. Technically, he and all the human beings are breaking the law by being vigilantes.

In the US, it is the state's duty is to handle law and order, not the private citizen. You nor I can go patrolling the streets with arms and take part in gun fights, etc trying to do the job of the police.

Actually, I don’t think that’s entirely true. In the real world, we have neighborhood watches, private security, private detectives, bounty hunters, etc. Also, I don’t think there are any real laws against private citizens patrolling as long as they are not illegally armed. They could even probably get away with being involved in gun fights as long as they were legally armed and they were coming to the aid of victims during an in-progress robbery. Citizens armed with firearms have legally come to the aid of others during crimes plenty of times. Of course, I’m talking about USA, other countries have different laws about this topic. Anyways, the tricky part comes down to proving that you were just an innocent and legally armed bystander. I’d guess that the first time, you’d be thanked and maybe even called a hero (assuming you weren't killed by criminals) but the second time (assuming you never admitted to patrolling) the police would start to wonder why you keep showing up at the scene of crimes with a gun. Still, if you could prove you were legal and helping each time, you could technically get away with playing vigilante hero. I guess that’s why most superheroes don’t wait around for the police to show up!

Where private citizens often go wrong is unnecessary and illegal use of force. They see someone they think is suspicious or “doesn’t belong in the neighborhood” and take action when no crimes are actually committed. If they see a fight in progress, perhaps they use bad judgment when deciding who is the victim. They also use force when it’s not warranted.

In the DCAU, not many heroes go patrolling with firearms so I doubt they are breaking any laws by doing so. Of course, governments in the DCAU may have passed laws that we don’t have in the real world against vigilantism out of necessity. Afterall, we don’t have many vigilantes in the real world compared to the DCAU where they run rampant.


Where guys like Batman really go wrong is not patrolling or even interrupting crimes in progress. It’s the other stuff he does like breaking and entering, illegal search, taking evidence from crime scenes, interrogating suspects, torturing for information, speeding, illegal use of explosives, illegal weapons, computer hacking, felony reckless driving, illegal flying, etc. Batman gets by with a lot of support from Commissioner Gordon turning a blind eye but I don’t think he’s ever been deputized.

I think one of the biggest differences between vigilantes in the real world and the DCAU is the weapons used. We don’t have any weapons in the real world that are not potentially lethal for fighting crime. Firearms are only truly effective if used to kill (sad but true; aiming to wound is generally considered ineffective if the criminal is armed). Stun guns, tasers, pepper spray, etc. are nowhere near as effective in stopping an armed criminal as a firearm and can also do serious physical harm or cause death, too.

In contrast, most superheroes in the DCAU can stop even the most dangerous criminal with non-lethal force. You could argue that someone like Superman would probably end up killing a normal human criminal at some point but the fact remains that it has never happened. Perhaps, if we had a true stun gun like the phasers in Star Trek in the real world, things would be different but so far we don’t.



Then we think of Superman. He was born on Krypton, but sent to Earth as a baby. Is he an American citizen? Or just a permanent resident? Either way, since Earth is his adopted home and the US his adopted country, he should be subject to US laws. The above applies to him too.

I think Superman and other alien heroes like him are special cases in the USA. They are technically not legal aliens unless they have applied for citizenship. I always got the impression that everyone thinks Superman doesn’t even have a secret identity and is Superman all the time (unlike Batman, who most of the public realizes is a disguise). It’s public knowledge that he’s an alien, too. Perhaps, Superman has become a legal alien since he was deputized by the Metropolis Special Crimes Unit before. He might have even become a citizen anyways just because he’s such a boy scout. But I think most of them are just illegal aliens that the government doesn’t do much about. They are too powerful to remove with force. There would probably also be a public outcry if the USA tried to keep Superman out since he’s generally been a force for good (except in Legacy). Oh, and of course, Clark Kent is a USA citizen because everyone thinks he was born in the USA.

Anyways, Superman is subject to USA laws when he’s acting in the USA.

Again, interesting subject.

[murmur]

The legal talk is quite fun, and I'd love to continue it (in fact, I will) but I can't help but admit that we've hijacked the thread a bit, which is really just supposed to be a body count. Are any of the Mods amenable to extracting the legal posts and dumping them in a new thread named something like "Legal consequences and the DCAU?"

Interesting subject. I think their citizenship would not be as relevant as the country they are operating in, though. For example, if Batman (a USA citizen) goes to Japan, he’d have to abide by their laws. When they are operating from the Watchtower, they are probably only really subject to international law.



Well, it's definitely true that committing a crime or other act that could result in civil liability always subjects you to the laws of the place where you committed that act. Diplomats may have immunity, but that's still granted by the local government. On the other hand, just because you committed an act in a certain place doesn't mean you can't also be subjected to the laws of your own country/state. Martian Manhunter, before his Season 3 exit, seemed to reside only in the Watchtower, so I have no idea what law would govern his actions or how (international law might handle it to some degree but isn't designed to govern individuals to the same extent as national law; besides, the guy isn't from our planet). The others, theoretically, could be governed by their home countries. For diplomatic reasons, that seems a little unlikely though. The truth is, the DCAU governments would have to design laws especially for the JL. Whatever analogous laws we have now are probably inadequate to handle such unique entities as the JL and the Watchtower.

Actually, I don’t think that’s entirely true. In the real world, we have neighborhood watches, private security, private detectives, bounty hunters, etc. Also, I don’t think there are any real laws against private citizens patrolling as long as they are not illegally armed. They could even probably get away with being involved in gun fights as long as they were legally armed and they were coming to the aid of victims during an in-progress robbery. Citizens armed with firearms have legally come to the aid of others during crimes plenty of times. Of course, I’m talking about USA, other countries have different laws about this topic. Anyways, the tricky part comes down to proving that you were just an innocent and legally armed bystander. I’d guess that the first time, you’d be thanked and maybe even called a hero (assuming you weren't killed by criminals) but the second time (assuming you never admitted to patrolling) the police would start to wonder why you keep showing up at the scene of crimes with a gun. Still, if you could prove you were legal and helping each time, you could technically get away with playing vigilante hero. I guess that’s why most superheroes don’t wait around for the police to show up!

Where private citizens often go wrong is unnecessary and illegal use of force. They see someone they think is suspicious or “doesn’t belong in the neighborhood” and take action when no crimes are actually committed. If they see a fight in progress, perhaps they use bad judgment when deciding who is the victim. They also use force when it’s not warranted.Very nicely put. This seems to be one of the core distinctions of classic superheroes. Even the darker heroes such as Batman adhere to a moral code, keep their cool, and don't let their prejudices run rampant. Modern comic book protagonists might more closely follow the troubling behavior of real-life vigilantism that you pointed out. Kingdom Come naturally comes to mind here.


In the DCAU, not many heroes go patrolling with firearms so I doubt they are breaking any laws by doing so. Of course, governments in the DCAU may have passed laws that we don’t have in the real world against vigilantism out of necessity. Afterall, we don’t have many vigilantes in the real world compared to the DCAU where they run rampant.Not on an individual basis, no. Although there are many who say that corporate vigilantism is a major concern, which is why JL may ironically be more relevant to real-life, in a way, than BtAS, etc. Even organized crime has an element of vigilantism. The mafia does do some good at keeping neighborhood order and is usually far more efficient than local government. At what cost is the question.


Where guys like Batman really go wrong is not patrolling or even interrupting crimes in progress. It’s the other stuff he does like breaking and entering, illegal search, taking evidence from crime scenes, interrogating suspects, torturing for information, speeding, illegal use of explosives, illegal weapons, computer hacking, felony reckless driving, illegal flying, etc. Batman gets by with a lot of support from Commissioner Gordon turning a blind eye but I don’t think he’s ever been deputized.Yeah, morals notwithstanding, Batman could easily be jailed for life if he ever got nailed for half the stuff he pulls off. Nice list, BTW--the specific legal violations Batman makes in just about every DCAU episode he's been in could easily fill many pages of its own thread.


I think Superman and other alien heroes like him are special cases in the USA. They are technically not legal aliens unless they have applied for citizenship. I always got the impression that everyone thinks Superman doesn’t even have a secret identity and is Superman all the time (unlike Batman, who most of the public realizes is a disguise). It’s public knowledge that he’s an alien, too. Perhaps, Superman has become a legal alien since he was deputized by the Metropolis Special Crimes Unit before. He might have even become a citizen anyways just because he’s such a boy scout. But I think most of them are just illegal aliens that the government doesn’t do much about. They are too powerful to remove with force. There would probably also be a public outcry if the USA tried to keep Superman out since he’s generally been a force for good (except in Legacy). Oh, and of course, Clark Kent is a USA citizen because everyone thinks he was born in the USA.Last point first: Clark Kent is a US citizen because he was legally adopted by two US citizens. On the other hand, I guess I can't be positive about what would happen if Superman's identity got exposed. Would the adoption certificate be invalidated because Superman is not technically human? I doubt it. I think you're right that Superman may have independantly become a citizen at some point. In fact, I'd consider that overwhelmingly likely. What politician wouldn't relish the opportunity for a photo op of giving Supes his oath?

[Bones Justice]

Which brings up another question...why the hell doesnt Earth have one government if they know aliens exist and are ready to destroy them?

That’s a good point. I’d guess they don’t have one government for a lot of the same reasons that we don’t in the real world when faced with mutual destruction. Given the state of the real world today, I have my doubts that nations could come together in the event of an alien invasion.

In the DCAU, some countries would never agree to unification even if staying separate meant their own destruction (see JLU:Initiation). Others, the most powerful ones, probably wouldn’t want to share technology. Also, I think a lot of countries rely on the Justice League to handle a lot of the alien stuff even if they won’t admit it.

Technically, very few DCAU citizens have been killed in alien invasions, though. Aside from Dan Turpin, I don’t think we’ve ever seen any bodies or remains. I have to think some people were killed in Secret Origins though my impression was that the real body count was going to start after the aliens succeeded in blocking out the sun. The aliens didn’t feel threatened by normal humans since their main defense (nuclear weapons) were out of the picture so they were in no hurry to start exterminating. Also, I don’t think many normal humans were killed in the Thanagarian invasion since the Hawks were working undercover. Again, the real body count was still to come. Probably the biggest loss of human life in an invasion prior to Destroyer was in Legacy.



Last point first: Clark Kent is a US citizen because he was legally adopted by two US citizens.

I’ll admit that I’m not totally up on DC lore. I can’t remember if this was addressed in Last Son of Krypton or not. I don’t remember anything about an adoption.

The way I remember it was that the Kents found the child then claimed to have been shut in during a harsh winter. They told everyone that Martha had a baby during that time. If it wasn’t in the television show then I guess I read it in an old comic book or something.

Oh yeah, and sorry for contributing to the thread hijack.

[Trevor Balena]

I’ll admit that I’m not totally up on DC lore. I can’t remember if this was addressed in Last Son of Krypton or not. I don’t remember anything about an adoption.

The way I remember it was that the Kents found the child then claimed to have been shut in during a harsh winter. They told everyone that Martha had a baby during that time. If it wasn’t in the television show then I guess I read it in an old comic book or something.
You did indeed. That was a part of John Byrne's "Man of Steel" reboot in the late eighties, and is no longer a part of continuity. Smallville covers this in detail, and I imagine the comics would go with its interpretation if it every comes up again: Clark was formally adopted by Jonathan and Martha. He's known he was adopted since childhood (although he didn't know exactly where he came from until his late teens / early twenties).

In "Last Son of Krypton, Part II" there's this line: "I've always known I was different, even before you and Pa told me I was adopted, but how is it possible I can do these things"?

[Bones Justice]

That must have been it. I haven't read all that many Superman comics.

What about the mountain climbers in the beginning of Dark Heart?I don’t think anyone mentioned them. Their deaths would have been fairly gruesome if they had been on screen.

[Gorthaur]

Only one of them died (curiously, as it took only a few seconds for the Dark Heart to consume the male completely, and yet the woman lived long enough for the military come to her rescue), but yeah. Lots of nameless soldiers were at least implied to have died in that episode.

Another one that hasn't been mentioned (that I noticed, anyway) is the college geek who performed that failed Chaos Magic rite in "Wake the Dead." He got his head squished by Grundy. Of course, Grundy then wrecked much of a populated town, so I doubt he was the only casualty there, either.

[Trevor Balena]

Another one that hasn't been mentioned (that I noticed, anyway) is the college geek who performed that failed Chaos Magic rite in "Wake the Dead." He got his head squished by Grundy. Of course, Grundy then wrecked much of a populated town, so I doubt he was the only casualty there, either.
At the very least, I assume the other two geeks bought it. Grundy must've run into them in the hallway in the few seconds between when they left and he arrived, right?

[OmegaPaladin]

Can a New God survive in outer space indefinitely?

I don’t think Lex would have just let him go. He’d be concerned about Lightray telling the League or the New Gods about what happened. After the events of Alive!, I wouldn’t be surprised if Lex just killed Lightray. I agree that the shot in the back wasn’t enough but once they had Lightray down, nothing would stop them from finishing the job.

Well, Orion survived floating in space unconscious in The Return.

Actually, were I Lex, I would have left Lightray alive.
1. I know that he is an emissary of New Genesis
2. New Genesis publicly promised to defend Earth against Darkseid.
3. Darkseid is headed for Earth.
4. Lightray will come looking for his mother box, with help most likely.
5. Lightray would arrive on Earth and notice Darkseid is invading.
6. New Genesis intervenes, and much faster than normal.

No moraliry required, just a desire to avoid Darkseid killing me.

[BlackoutCreature]

Well, Orion survived floating in space unconscious in The Return.

Actually, were I Lex, I would have left Lightray alive.
1. I know that he is an emissary of New Genesis
2. New Genesis publicly promised to defend Earth against Darkseid.
3. Darkseid is headed for Earth.
4. Lightray will come looking for his mother box, with help most likely.
5. Lightray would arrive on Earth and notice Darkseid is invading.
6. New Genesis intervenes, and much faster than normal.

No moraliry required, just a desire to avoid Darkseid killing me.
Actually i have to believe Lex either didnt know who Lightray was or didnt know about New Genesis and its history with Darkseid. He was looking to stop Darkseid, why would he knowingly attack someone who could bring along a calvary of warriors who have trained specifically to battle Darkseid and his forces?

[HaagenDas]

Furthermore, if Lex wanted the New Gods help he could have just ASKED.:p

[Cortez2301]

At the very least, I assume the other two geeks bought it. Grundy must've run into them in the hallway in the few seconds between when they left and he arrived, right?Probably.But the thing is there wasn't much noise heard outside except for Grundy banging on the wall.Those 2 other guys might have died but is certain that boy was killed.

[Squall]

I didn't have time to read all 5 pages of posts on this thread, but I wanted to mention, just in case it hasn't been already, all the nameless, regular citizens (like us!) that have died or had their lives altered forever by events in the DCAU.

-How many people died when Darkseid invaded Earth, all three times? When the Imperium invaded? When the Thanagarians invaded? All those exploding buildings, cars on busy highways, etc.

-How many people have villians like Joker and Lex Luthor been responsible for killing over the years? Joker due to his simply being a homicidal maniac, and Lex Luthor (especially in his businessman days) due to simply not caring about his employees, or leaving those working for him in the hands of mobsters, etc.

-Speaking of Joker, we have his attack on Gotham City in "Return of The Joker." Then there's brainwashed-Superman-being-controlled-by-Starro's attack on Metropolis in "The Call". Lots more exploding bulidings and cars on busy highways, etc.

Even if you don't count all the people that must have died in all these major attacks on Earth's cities in DCAU history, I'm sure that there are many more times that number that survived, but injured for life. People that were maimed when working as slaves for the Thanagarians, or who lost a limb when an Imperium walker stepped on him, or who was blinded for life when the defense satellite Joker activated exploded right in front of their eyes... the possibilities for misery in the DCAU are endless.

:eek:

[BlackoutCreature]

Ive seen a few people mention the building the Joker destroyed with the satellite weapon in "Return of the Joker". Well in the alternate commentary of the unedited version DVD, Bruce Timm (atleast i think it was Timm, it mightve been one of the others, Timm doesnt contradict him though) said that it was after hours and that all the buildings were empty and nobody died in them. While that seems rather implausible (if a poster would try to make that claim on these message boards, i know i wouldnt except it), since its coming from the man himself, i think it might be considered canon.

[SuperBat]

Ive seen a few people mention the building the Joker destroyed with the satellite weapon in "Return of the Joker". Well in the alternate commentary of the unedited version DVD, Bruce Timm (atleast i think it was Timm, it mightve been one of the others, Timm doesnt contradict him though) said that it was after hours and that all the buildings were empty and nobody died in them. While that seems rather implausible (if a poster would try to make that claim on these message boards, i know i wouldnt except it), since its coming from the man himself, i think it might be considered canon.
I think they were being sarcastic.

[Squall]

I think they were being sarcastic.

Oh yeah, they were totally being sarcastic. :p

Just a few moments later on that same commentary, when the satellite is destroying a busy Interstate, with cars flying everywhere, they were saying things like "Oh, well, all those cars are empty, driving themselves!" LOL

[SuperBat]

Oh yeah, they were totally being sarcastic. :p

Just a few moments later on that same commentary, when the satellite is destroying a busy Interstate, with cars flying everywhere, they were saying things like "Oh, well, all those cars are empty, driving themselves!" LOL
Haha, I remember that now. That sounds like definite sarcasm to me. It's been a while since I watched that commentary anyway.

[Arrakhat]

Oh yeah, they were totally being sarcastic. :p

Just a few moments later on that same commentary, when the satellite is destroying a busy Interstate, with cars flying everywhere, they were saying things like "Oh, well, all those cars are empty, driving themselves!" LOL
They also made comments similar to those you mentioned during the "Savage Time" pt 2 commentary. They said that the man GL shot in the head was only wounded, and would be just fine. Or something to that extent.:p

[Cortez2301]

They also made comments similar to those you mentioned during the "Savage Time" pt 2 commentary. They said that the man GL shot in the head was only wounded, and would be just fine. Or something to that extent.:pYeah I remember that.Bruce was like he was hit with a bullet to his head but the fall got him or something like that.It is funny how they be sarcastic about stuff like that.But that part in ROTJ with cars flying without drivers was really funny.

[Maestro]

Is Brainiac finally dead? I mean they threw that guy into the sun. C'mon

[BlackoutCreature]

Is Brainiac finally dead? I mean they threw that guy into the sun. C'mon
I believe there are multiple copies of Braniac and that Superman and the JL have never fought the same one twice.

[Simon Trent]

Is Brainiac finally dead? I mean they threw that guy into the sun. C'mon

The Joker has survived worse things than the measly sun.

[Gorthaur]

With his complexion? The Sun must be the Joker's number two foe, right after Batman.

[Bones Justice]

I was watching Chemistry from Batman:TAS recently and this thread (among others) came to mind. Okay, so I know that Poison Ivy survives because she later shows up in Hard as Nails from Static Shock. But what about the plant-people that Ivy created?

I mean, think about it -- they are shown as living beings capable of independent thought. When one of them attempts murder, Ivy demands, "Who told you to do that?" and the plant-person responds that it was about to be discovered. So obviously, Ivy did not tell it to kill, either directly or as a contingency plan. The plant-person decided to kill entirely on it's own. It showed reasoning (albeit evil reasoning), understanding consequences for it's actions. Likewise, the plant that Bruce "marries" seemed to show plenty of free-will when it tried to kill him. Several other of the plant-people seemed to be independent, also.

But back to that first plant-person explaining it's actions; Batgirl and Robin were hiding in the bushes and witnessed the whole conversation! So when they "destroyed" the plant-people later, were they actually killing sentient beings? I'd say "yes", so chalk up another half-dozen or more deaths to the toll. Dang, but Batgirl and Robin were stone-cold killahs! :evil:

[Cortez2301]

Did False Face die? On The worlds finest they said he was dead.I remember him being thrown out of the fire but he was still breathing.