Which is better JL Animated or Batman TAS?

[Poison Carley]

Like I am not sure how to post a poll, so which show do you think is better and why?

[Justice League 2000]

I say both :)

[The Penguin]

I'd have to go with BTAS. I'm a big Batman fan so I like having only his rogue's gallery in the show, but that was almost 10 years ago now. (Wow, I feel old. :eek: ) So animation and voice acting have come a long way since then. JL is so good too, but I would cast a vote for BTAS.

[Spider]

Penguin,

Do you know if there are any other tapes of the animated Batman series--the one which aired several years ago? I'm not talking about the one with the darker quality, but the one which had five episodes on them-- featuring the Penguin, the Riddler, the Joker, Catwoman, and Mr. Freeze? Each episode was about 12-16 minutes long. I've only been able to find one of these. Are there any others?

[The Penguin]

Originally posted by Spider
Penguin,

Do you know if there are any other tapes of the animated Batman series--the one which aired several years ago? I'm not talking about the one with the darker quality, but the one which had five episodes on them-- featuring the Penguin, the Riddler, the Joker, Catwoman, and Mr. Freeze? Each episode was about 12-16 minutes long. I've only been able to find one of these. Are there any others?

Are you talking about "The Adventures of Batman & Robin" tapes?
Those are the only ones I know and they have 2 episodes each.

If that is it there is also a Two-Face, Poison Ivy, Batman, and Robin one. Otherwise I don't know. :confused:

Which one do you have and what is on it? That might help me a little.

[Spider]

Penguin,

I think it's the Adventures of Batman and Robin. The tape has the five villains I mentioned before on it, and the box is red, white, and blue. I believe it's older than the one with Poison Ivy and Two-Face; I think this tape is from the 1980s (or earlier). I'll check and let you know tomorrow.

This is the tape that has the Penguin being Mr. Nice Guy (fighting crime instead of creating it); the Catwoman accompanied by a small cat that takes a long ride with Batman and Robin (it's how she keeps tabs on their whereabouts); and the Riddler, Mr. Freeze, and the Joker. Also, Batgirl makes an appearance in the Catwoman episode.

[Batman 80]

I like them both.

[James Harvey]

While I enjoy them both, Batman: The Animated Series is better. While it is unfair to compare them both (although expected), that's the one I'd choose. Still, JL is a real good series - very enjoyable.

[Joker85]

Well, Justice league is a good series, but without B:TAS, it wouldn't exist!! Plus, I am first and foremost a Batman fan, so I vote for Batman: The Animated Series.

[The Flash]

Like most ppl I like both, but my nod goes to BTAS. http://community.sierra.com/Images/emoticons/nod.gif

[Tim Drake]

BTAS all the way. You can argue JL animation is better. But voice acting (Wonder Woman) and music aren't as good. Overall BTAS is better. It could change with Season two though. I don't know how many people have watched Xmen evolution but season 2 is jumps and bounds better than season 1. Probably cause the fans got so upset that Cyclops used the word like in every sentence of Season 1.

[Failure]

It's kind of unfair to compare the two, since JL's only had 6 episodes and actually only 3 whole stories so far, compared to BTAS's 100+. But if pressed I'd go with BTAS, JL is still very good though.

[Toddman]

Originally posted by Spider
Penguin,

I think it's the Adventures of Batman and Robin. The tape has the five villains I mentioned before on it, and the box is red, white, and blue. I believe it's older than the one with Poison Ivy and Two-Face; I think this tape is from the 1980s (or earlier). I'll check and let you know tomorrow.

This is the tape that has the Penguin being Mr. Nice Guy (fighting crime instead of creating it); the Catwoman accompanied by a small cat that takes a long ride with Batman and Robin (it's how she keeps tabs on their whereabouts); and the Riddler, Mr. Freeze, and the Joker. Also, Batgirl makes an appearance in the Catwoman episode.

I think you are refering to the "Super Powers" tape collection that was first out on the market in the mid-80's. There were four tapes in all: Batman, Superman, Superboy, and Aquaman. The episodes were from the Filmation series that originally aired in 1960's.

You can probably rent them at your local Blockbuster or Hollywood Video. And I'll bet you can find all four tapes for sale somewhere on E-Bay.

If people think that the Superfriends were cheesy, they should take a peek at those gems!

Toddman

[Terminatah]

Batman: The Animated Series was superior to Justice League because it was more of a mystery/suspense show rather than straight action, which made for better storylines. Also, when the series first aired, there was a very minimal amount of characters in the series, which left more room for them to develop. I would die if Justice League ever dared to devote an entire episode to Batman and his detective skills. Even Batman: The Animated Series took risks like this, such as in the episode Showdown, which I don't think Batman was even IN (and if he was, then barely, because it took place in the 1880's).

-Terminatah

[Maxie Zeus]

Poll added.

[Spider]

Originally posted by Toddman


I think you are refering to the "Super Powers" tape collection that was first out on the market in the mid-80's. There were four tapes in all: Batman, Superman, Superboy, and Aquaman. The episodes were from the Filmation series that originally aired in 1960's. Toddman

Toddman,

Thanks. That's the one. I thought there were more, but I hadn't seen them yet. I didn't know they were part of that series, but 'Filmation' sounds right. :)

[gregstones]

BTAS is so much stronger than JL. I have noticed a trend with Bruce Timm: The longer he works in animation, the less human his animated characters become, both visually and verbally. The writing in the original Batman series is very solid. The plots are involving, the characters relate to each other in real human ways, and you feel like you actually know and understand these people. How much of that can be said of Justice League?

Green Lantern: "You did it, Batman!"
Batman: "No...WE did it!"

No one talks like that. In my opinion, Justice League would work much better as an anthology series, where one week you have a Flash story, the next week you have a Superman story, and so on. In other words, no literal justice league. So far, the producers have yet to convince me exactly why a bunch of superheroes would hang out in a space station. (I'm not a comic book fan, so I take a little more convincing than some others might.)

Visually speaking, the JL character designs are good and tight, but where the look of the new show falls down, I think, is in the coloration and contrast. BTAS has dramatic lighting. The lit sides of characters glow against the dark backgrounds. This gives the show a great deal of visual depth and drama, which matches the writing perfectly. For a show that wishes to be dramatic and exciting, I find the dulled contrasts in JL to be a wrong move. I'm no fan of anime, but the strong sense of light and contrast in that kind of animation ads greatly to the storytelling. Batman Beyond was also awash in dull colors, though, so I guess visual drama is not something that Bruce Timm wants. How hard would it be to make the brights a little brighter and the darks a little darker, though? That, in combination with better character-driven writing, would make Justice League a far stronger show.

- Greg Stones
(gregstones.com)

[JohnStewart-GL]

Luv em both almost equally but i really like John Stewart and Hawkgirl in JL so i voted JL besides i think we'll all like JL better by next season i think it will get better .

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by Tim Drake
BTAS all the way. You can argue JL animation is better. But voice acting (Wonder Woman) and music aren't as good. Overall BTAS is better. It could change with Season two though. I don't know how many people have watched Xmen evolution but season 2 is jumps and bounds better than season 1. Probably cause the fans got so upset that Cyclops used the word like in every sentence of Season 1.
thats true i watch Xmen evolution and season 2 is quite a bit better

[Heehaw]

You can argue JL animation is better

LOL, what?

JL is very average and quite frankly very poor most of the time, while the vast majority of BTAS is as good as it gets, at least when it comes to TV animation. There's absolutely no comparison, at that isn't an opinion. It's just plain fact.

[The Penguin]

Originally posted by Heehaw

LOL, what?

JL is very average and quite frankly very poor most of the time, while the vast majority of BTAS is as good as it gets, at least when it comes to TV animation. There's absolutely no comparison, at that isn't an opinion. It's just plain fact.

I really don't wanna start a fight here, but...

You may feel very strongly about it, but it is still an opinion, your opinion and there's no reason to shoot someone down like that.

[Heehaw]

Smooth animation is smooth animation and it's not a subjective thing. It either is or it isn't. I could probably name off 60-75 BTAS/TNBA shows that are better than anything else either at the time or now, in terms of animation quality(and story). JL has yet to display any truly impressive animation(or stories) and it won't as long as it relies on Koko(and hacks) to do the work. BTAS had it's share of garbage(courtesy of Akom Productions and Blue Pencil, among others) and JL is definitely above that material, though it pales with the work done by TMS, Sunrise, Studio Junio, and other houses that did an outstanding job on the series. Get those guys on board, and JL may be the new force to reckon with.

I'm through.

[gregstones]

The beauty of BTAS was that even when the animation wasn't very good, the great writing, strong music, and moody backgrounds always propped things up. Justice League has sub-par action-movie dialog and by-the-numbers backgrounds, so when the animation isn't very good...what else is left?

[Heehaw]

gregstones,

I reread your original long post above, and while I agree with you, some people won't. They will claim JL is a popcorn action movie type of a series; thus it shouldn't be dark and dramatic and Caravaggioesque in appearance(meaning bright brights and dark darks) which is pure nonsense. It doesn't need to look identical, but a little contrast would be nice now and again. The little that they have done is forced and usually reserved for Batman. They need to have him put the cape around his body when he is standing around. Especially, when he is chatting with the chums about which upholstery to use for their big space station's sofa and the all-terrain space/water ship that Bruce "slipped" into the R&D budget(I believe in the comic that the base is on the moon and that Supes built it--it's been awhile so I may be wrong).

BTAS was a psychological thriller type of show, and the look and mood suits it. TNBA suffered the same problem as JL, visually, but it was executed better and featured some very smooth animation most of time. There's probably a good 10-14 shows, in TNBA that are outstanding....then there's Critters...heheheh.

[SupergirlJenM]

Where's the Superman love? :(

[Heehaw]

Maybe it's over in the HOT girls of DC thread :rolleyes: :D

[gregstones]

I loved the first season of Superman, and maybe half of the second season...but then every other show was just Superman getting zapped by various energy beams. (I loved episodes like "Bizarro's World" and hated episodes like "Father's Day".) The best work from the WB superhero team has always been character-driven, and it seems to me that they stopped caring about character approximately halfway through 1997. ("Batman Beyond" really fell flat for me.)

I think action is more exciting when you actually care about the characters. So far in the Justice League, the Flash is the only hero that has really exhibited signs of life. Everyone else is too painfully stoic for me.

[Poison Carley]

I agree. I don't care about anyone on the show, but Batman and thats why I never watch it.

[jm5150bc]

BTAS - Most definitely. But JL is great, too.

They are really apples and oranges, you can't really compare side-by-side.

BTAS was an extremely well written, mostly well-animated series that told great psycholigical as well as action stories. It's the standard by which all superhero shows MUST be judged. They just don't come any better.

But in defense of JL - BTAS focused on Batman or Bat-family character, and / or 1 great villain at a time and that's why they were able to tell the great stories that they did. These guys outclassed the live-action stuff EVERY SINGLE TIME !!
Justice League has 7 MAJOR heroes that must all be given something to do, and for that reason, just about every story line is a big spectacle- hence 2 or 3 parts. That's a VERY TALL ORDER !! Bruce Timm & Co. have given us what we wanted, a respectable version of the JL, and seem to do a pretty great job in covering all the bases. Sure there are some contrivances made, but that's to be expected so that we all get to see our favorite hero involved.

Everyone wanted the JL- fans have been BEGGING for years !!
We've finally gotten what we asked for, but it seems like alot of folks just want to bash it. Let's face it... If not for the wonderful creative folks involved, this could have been Wonder Twins, Part 2 !!

[gregstones]

I have to say, I never really cared about superheroes at all until Batman: The Animated Series premiered in 1992. In fact, I STILL don't care about superheroes, per se...I just care about animation that successfully balances art, music, character, humor, drama, emotion, and solid story-telling. Justice League seems to appeal mostly just to those who are really into superheroes. The beauty of BTAS was that it spoke a great deal about the human condition, and was therefore very accessible to outsiders like myself. Justice League is almost strictly for insiders. So far, the JL producers haven't given me a reason to care about ANY of the characters. Those who already know the characters from other sources are all set, but as for me...I've been left out in the cold.

[Brainiac]

I'd have to go with B:TAS all the way...not to say that I don't like Justice League...the Batman rogues gallery is definitely a highlight...Plus, I've always liked Batman in particular...

[thanos28542]

I can't believe how many of you so called JL fans are putting down the series & saying how much better BTAS was! The animation in JL is better than BTAS which was made 10 yrs ago!You all begged & pleaded for a JL animated series & when your wish is granted, all I hear is complaints & gripes about this & that! Keep on whining & maybe WB will hear you & cancel JL after a season or two. Then you'll all have yourselves to blame. Stop dissing JL people! BTAS ain't coming back so stop the JL bashing or soon we wont have that series to talk about. I love JL & have no complaints whatsoever. I'm just grateful that they finally did a JL animated series & you all should be too! :mad:

[Heehaw]

What does the fact that BTAS being 10 years old have to do with animation quality? Nothing. That doesn't even make any sense. The Superman shows from the early 40s are 60 years old and feature the best animation ever, in anything.

If you think JL is better animated than BTAS, overall, then you really need to go back and watch the older series, again. There's no comparison, BTAS is as smooth as silk, almost 70% of the time(meaning around 65 shows out of 109 episodes are either perfect or above average, the rest are either good or Akom poor). JL ranges from slightly above average to a few steps above Akom quality, usually in the middle, though. As I stated earlier, animation is either smooth or it isn't(or average or crap). It's not up to a subjective analysis. I guess a person has to have an eye for good animation. It's similar to a person who isn't tone deaf, I suppose.

Koko ain't no TMS, Sunrise, Studio Junio or any of the other quality studios.

I'm looking forward to seeing BT animated sequence in Paradise Lost 2. I guess I should try to catch part 1 when it reairs.

[Tim Drake]

There seems to be a lot of tension on this board right now. People should be able to disagree here without getting upset. I think HeeHaw your quote about relating good animation to being tone deaf is a little much.

I personally find BTAS to be a much better show. I personally like the animation in BTAS more than JL. I mentioned that someone could argue that they prefer JL animation. I think its a valid point.

Why? Because there is an attention to detail not really seen in BTAS. Backgrounds especially have a much more realistic anime look to them. Also, during fight scenes rarely does the background simply turn into a blur of moving color like we saw in BTAS, STAS, BB. Also, while Koko isn't the greatest I'll admit. At least we have consistent animation. In STAS and BTAS there were some episodes that looked so bad that I wasn't sure if it was the real deal. There's also a greater attention to detail than TNBA. You can actually see that Batman's mask is separate from his face because the nose of the mask is slightly elevated like in BTAS. And am I the only one who noticed the more complex flight shots they have done? I don't think the Batplane ever moved more gracefully through the sky. Many of the shots I have seen of the Batplane are reminiscent of Cowboy Bebop to me.

Ok now I will argue the other side. BTAS is the superior show. Its character designs choices are for the most part better. Look at Superman in JL his upper body is just kinda unwieldly and his face is real ugly in most shots. BTAS has had so many beautiful fight scenes in comparison the fly in the air and shoot at things fight scenes we see in JL. The women in BTAS have meat on their bones. In TNBA and JL the women are so skinny I have a hard time believing that could fight anything. Just about every episode of BTAS had a "painting shot." I don't what you actually call it. Its one of those shots that has little or no movement but looks visually stunning. You guys know what I'm talking about. Mask of the Phantasm was full of them. I just rewatched Deep Freeze, and there's a beatiful shot of Mr. Freeze right before he shoots Batman and Robin. There have been great color choices as well. In "Beware the Grey Ghost" there is a scene with a building on fire. Batman and Gordon are at the scene and both of them have a beautiful red ambience due to the fire.

Anyhow I've gotta jet. I hope this calms down people. I agree with you HeeHaw, BTAS is better. But people are entitled to their opinions. You can like or find Justice League animation to be better without being the tone deaf person of animation. And by all means, everyone check out Part 1 of Paradise Lost when it reairs. In my opinion its pretty much the best animation we've seen in JL so far.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by thanos28542
I can't believe how many of you so called JL fans are putting down the series & saying how much better BTAS was! The animation in JL is better than BTAS which was made 10 yrs ago!You all begged & pleaded for a JL animated series & when your wish is granted, all I hear is complaints & gripes about this & that! [...] I'm just grateful that they finally did a JL animated series & you all should be too! :mad:
Dude, it's not like we have to deter to BT and co. If some ppl don't like the show, then it means they feel let down by the outcome: they may have waited for long, it's still obviously not up to their expectations... and they're entitled to express their disappointment.

Eagerly awaiting a show does not mean loving it blindly when it's out. Constructive criticism is far more adviseable.

Besides, the animation in JL is better than in BTAS *technically speaking*. Granted, it's rather smooth and efficient. Still the mood of the original show and even the flaws in the animation (which were admittedly striking at times) had a special feel to them. God, I was just watching 'The Enemy Below' (which I really liked btw)... the look of the city where they chase Deadshot (Metropolis I presume) is absolutely horrible! Those "realistic" buildings seemed to reak of ugly Fox animation.

Animation does not have to come with smoothness to be appreciated. To me, style is what matters.

So I voted for BTAS. All the way. Allllllllll the way! (like my buddy Frank Sinatra would say :))

[Salvor]

Originally posted by Heehaw
What does the fact that BTAS being 10 years old have to do with animation quality? Nothing. That doesn't even make any sense. The Superman shows from the early 40s are 60 years old and feature the best animation ever, in anything.
This is one vivid example! Disney's most memorable animated shorts came out at that time too.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by thanos28542
I can't believe how many of you so called JL fans are putting down the series & saying how much better BTAS was!

The fact that most of us like BTAS better than JL doesn't mean that we dislike JL. Isn't it possible to love both, but to still like one better than the other? I think classic Looney Tunes are better than BTAS, but that says nothing against the quality of BTAS.

[gregstones]

thanos28542

Just for the record, I, for one, never wanted a Justice League show. I knew the attention to personality and character that made BTAS and STAS special would get lost in the shuffle with so many heroes to deal with. What makes Batman and Superman so interesting, I think, is seeing them as Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent. Seeing multiple facets to a character gives a greater sense of depth, and gives non-superheroes like myself something real to connect to.

Two of my favorite STAS moments: in "The Last Son of Krypton" Superman accidently rips the tail off the plane he's trying to save, and says, "Nice one, Clark." Very human. A Superman who doesn't get it right every time. Moment #2: In an episode with Mxysptlk, we learn that Superman shaves by using his heat vision in the mirror. Things like that make a character more tangible and real. There have been few if any magical touches like this in Justice League. There has also been little if any visual beauty in JL. Nothing that one would want to freeze and put in a frame on the wall to admire for years. Whereas BTAS has the contrasts and visual depth of feature films (vibrant colors, deep shadows), Justice League has all the visual impact of a video tape recording (there is a grayness that seems to permeate and deaden everything, just as there was in Batman Beyond.)

Not that my being a professional photo-realistic painter gives my arguments any more weight, but it does prevent me from admiring any visual aspects of JL. In fact, before Justice League
premiered, I read that Bruce Timm actually referred to the new backgrounds as being more photo-realistic, but that only shows that he doesn't know all he should about the finer points of light and color. The backgrounds are more detailed, yes, but both the backgrounds and the characters would benefit greatly from a more dramatic sense of light. I consider Bruce Timm to be a good graphic artist, sure, but when it comes light and color, someone like Eric Radomski (former BTAS producer) or Alex Ross (a master of photo-realistic light) should be in charge.

Batman the Animated Series gave us art. Justice League does not.

[Heehaw]

BTAS has plenty of style. All of the blurring backgrounds that one of the recent posts made reference to, is simply apart of it. I really like the effect and think it works just fine. As for the less realistic backgrounds, well that goes with the look, as well. The style basically dictates simplicity and that is what they are. It's basically a hybrid Deco style.

The poses that the characters strike, and the way they move is much more pleasing to the eye than anything in JL. The movements in JL seem to be very stiff. I wasn't able to check out Paradise Lost so hopefully it is getting better. I don't hate JL, I'm just very disappointed given the track record of the talent involved and the fact that the show is on a network that will allow for more risk taking.

The vast majority of the bad animation in BTAS, was due to Akom Productions.

As for the tone deaf/eye for animation comment, it's not too much, and it's a vaild analogy. Some people have an ear for discerning notes and carrying a tune and some people have an eye for good animation and some don't. I know plenty of people that wouldn't know quality animation if you showed it to them. They just don't get it. It can be acquired, though. I've converted a couple of people and they can spot garbage a mile away.

[Spider]

Originally posted by gregstones
thanos28542

Not that my being a professional photo-realistic painter gives my arguments any more weight, but it does prevent me from admiring any visual aspects of JL.

Gregstones,

Your posts are IMO excellent, and I'm ill-equipped to discuss your expertise in these areas. But I do enjoy reading them. :)

I'm a musicologist by profession. Roughly twenty years ago, I used to measure all musics against J.S. Bach (as well as one or two early renaissance composers) but found that when I did this, all composers fell short. (This includes such acknowledged masters as Beethoven and Mozart, but such a discussion as to why would not be in keeping with the topic here.) However, once I elected (or more properly, was convinced) to 'put on a different set of ears,' so to speak, I eventually become an ardent fan of the music of Beethoven and Mozart, as well that of Schoenberg. I also possess absolute pitch, which, when I listen to or analyze music, brings up an entirely different set of aural problems. However, I am able to get around pieces performed or broadcast in 'incorrect' keys by simply changing the C-clef I employ, and modifying the appropriate signatures, if any.

You mention that given your profession and your expertise, you are prevented from admiring any visual aspects of JL. Would it not be possible to 'put on a different set of eyes,' so to speak, or is this analogy erroneous? Perhaps the 'line' between Bach and Mozart/Beethoven is not similar to the line between the greatest visual aspects you've seen, and that which either comes close, is on a par with, fails miserably, etc. Thoughts?

[The New Batman]

So far, I'd have to say B:TAS, but JL is still fairly new, so I'll give it some more time before voting.

[thanos28542]

:1st off, I'm NOT tone deaf when it comes to animation! I agree that a ton of Disney movies have superior animation compared to JL.Then again Disney has the millions to put into their movies & shows, JL does not. 2nd, I have watched & enjoyed just about every Batman episode I've ever seen since the show's debut on Sept 5th 1992!(Correct me if I'm wrong on the debut date) I am a HUGE Bat fan OF both BTAS &TNBA, though I liked the TNBA better.I also am a Huge fan of the man of steel & enjoyed just about all of his episodes except for maybe 4 or 5. The point I was trying to make is that I read about all this JL bashing & the show isn't even half way thru. I missed "Paradise Lost" but I hear it's the best episode yet. I admit I have a problem w/Superman not really being that"super" & w/MM also not displaying his full array of powers, but perhaps as the season progresses they will start to display their powers more accurately. I think the best is yet to come people , so let's just be patient & enjoy the ride! :D

[gregstones]

Spider,

I wish I COULD turn off all my artistic knowledge when watching animated work, but I am afraid that this is not possible. I can never stop thinking about color and contrast and perfect compositions--I see the entire world this way.

Since you're a musicologist, I will make a musical analogy so you can truly sympathize with how Justice League rubs me the wrong way. Say there was a show that was supposed to be full of action, excitement, and drama. And as one would expect, the screen was, indeed, filled with all sorts of fights and rescues and alien beings bent on taking over the world.

But for a musical score, they used nothing but Lawrence Welk recordings.

That is how bland Justice League is to my eye.

The irony is that BTAS premiered when I was a freshman in college, and it ended up influencing my art a great deal. First of all, it taught me the importance of narrative. Secondly, it showed me that it wasn't enough to simply see light--you need to be able to FEEL the light. (Light sets the mood.) Also, despite my professors' objections, I began using black in my paintings much the way BTAS did, and the results led to strong, distinctive work that has enabled me to paint for a living.

Justice League aims to be an exciting show. Give it some exciting lighting, backgrounds, and visual compositions, and I'll be able to ignore the mediocre writing.

An added note: I minored in music composition, I have always done a lot of writing, I was a cartoonist for a time, and I'm working on a number of humorous photo-surrealistic kids' books, so obviously an animated program has to be strong in a number of areas for me to be entertained.

My paintings are at gregstones.com if anyone (such as Bruce Timm) wants to see some photo-realism.

[Tim Drake]

Gregstones I just checked out your website and I am very much impressed. But I still have to play devil's advocate one more time with you and HeeHaw.

Both of you considered BTAS better for its aristic look. I agree the dark deco art style of BTAS is far superior. But animation is not only light and color but also fluidity and movement. JL has done some interesting movements. In Secret Origins we see Superman's face fly toward the screen and we focus into his mouth as it fades out. As mentioned previously the vehicle flight scenes such as the Batplane, or Jav-7 have been more intricate than flight sequences seen in TNBA and I think also BTAS.
Anywho I'm done trying to defend JL. In truth BTAS is still in my opinion the better show.

[gregstones]

Tim Drake,

I totally agree with you on the tight vehicle animation in Justice League. That is very well done. The characters also move quite well (especially the Flash). That is why I find it so disappointing that the producers have opted for a dulled sense of light. They do have shading on the characters, of course, but the contrast is so minimalized that it becomes meaningless. With just a slight increase in the contrast, the characters could really come to life. (Some slightly more artistic story-boarding wouldn't hurt, either, of course.)

This is off the track a bit, but back when Batman Beyond was just getting started, Paul Dini actually suggested (via e-mail) that I send Warner Bros. my portfolio for consideration. I went so far as to talk to Shaun McLaughlin on the phone, but in the end, I realized that there is a reason for some unimpressive art in the animated world--if an artist is good enough to making a living painting what he wants to paint, why would he want to work for someone else who would dictate what he paints and how he paints it? It just didn't add up for me, and I'm sure most classically trained artists would feel equally stifled.

The moral? Appreciate the art that made BTAS shine, my friends, because you may never see anything like that again.

Anyway, thanks for checking out my site, Drake. I aim to impress and entertain.

[Spider]

Gregstones,

Thanks for the reply. I think I can understand and appreciate your position somewhat more clearly now. I would not find a steady diet of Lawrence Welk very appealing. Musically speaking, I do appreciate being challenged. (Hence my admiration for Schoenberg. :)) Nor would I find musical mediocrity tolerable for too long. Of course, I can't perceive JL like you can, which may be somewhat of a blessing for me (at least for now). In other words, I don't know what I'm missing.

Whenever I am listening to music, I cannot but help hear the harmonic progressions, rhythm, and contrapuntal movement (if there is any of the latter) as well as the instrumentation and orchestration. No matter how hard I try, I cannot shut that out. So I do understand the difficulty at least somewhat. I do hope you continue to watch and post your views on JL though. I want to read your perspective on episodes we've both seen. :)

[Heehaw]

But animation is not only light and color but also fluidity and movement.

How's this for fluidity and movement ;) While the shows not listed aren't garbage(except for Akom/Blue Pencil material - The Mechanic being the best Akom show, in terms of animation), I consider this, from an animation perspective, to be the best of the best. JL has come nowhere near the weakest material on this list, but I hope that BT and crew surprise us one day:

The Cat and the Claw Part 1(also contains one of my favorite BTAS musical scores; the first 5 minutes are 5 of my favorite minutes in the whole series)
On Leather Wings
Heart of Ice
Feat of Clay Part 2
It's Never Too Late
Pretty Poison
Two Face Part 1
Appointment in Crime Alley
P.O.V.
I Am The Night
The Laughing Fish(another favorite score - one of the most atmospheric shows and my favorite Joker episode)
His Silicon Soul
The Demon's Quest Part 1
Read My Lips
Riddler's Reform
Robin's Reckoning Part 1
Robin's Reckoning Part 2
See No Evil
Paging the Crime Doctor
Second Chance
Sideshow
Showdown
The Man Who Killed Batman
Night Of The Ninja
A Bullet For Bullock
Almost Got 'Im
Beware The Gray Ghost - sans the rubber Batmobile, of course, found the evil toy collecting Bruce Timm to be amusing.
Blind As A Bat
Dreams In Darkness
Fear Of Victory
Fire From Olympus
Day Of The Samurai

TNBA:
The Demon Within
Growing Pains
Holiday Knights
Mad Love
Never Fear
Over The Edge
You Scratch My Back

STAS(w/Bats):
World's Finest

[Tim Drake]

To Gregstones thanks for informed opinion on lighting. Looking back on BTAS today I totally agree.

To HeeHaw I reviewed some of the episodes you mentioned and I still feel people could argue for Jl in terms of fluidity. The Batplane sequences in World's Finest for example do not compare to Secret Origins. I rewatched His Silicon Soul and and I thought the animation wasn't noticebly better than JL. It seemed to have the problem some BTAS episodes did where Batman wasn't always the exact same build in each shot. The animation in Holiday Knights didn't seem that spectacular in movement or animation as well.

On the other hand there were some you mentioned I wholeheartedly agree. On Leather Wings, Over the Edge, Feat of Clay Part 2, and Dreams in Darkness are spectacular on fluidity and movement of animation.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by Tim Drake
The Batplane sequences in World's Finest for example do not compare to Secret Origins.
I strongly disagree. The fluidity in World's Finest was outstanding, as opposed to the rather stiff movements shown in Secret Origins. Overall I find the bulky JL animated style to be lacking fluidity and swiftness. On the contrary the BB (or TNBSA) animated style worked way better when it came to action scenes. Even in 'the Enemy Below', which is fairly well animated, the animators seem to have a hard time keeping the characters -or the vehicles- on-model when things get a bit rushed.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by gregstones
Batman the Animated Series gave us art. Justice League does not.
I guess that pretty much sums it up...

[Heehaw]

I'm talking about people movement, not Batplane movement. Just because 25 seconds of Batplane is more fluid in JL doesn't mean it can be argued that the animation is better.

If you believe "His Silicon Soul" and "Holiday Nights" are about the same as an average JL episode, well I guess I give up. Your lense must be foggy. ;)

There's no comparison between vehicle movement in WF and JL. WF is TMS(and they rendered some of their best work), and it doesn't get any better than that.

Secret Origins, overall, looked like only slightly better than a typical X-Men Animated episode(the first series), and the Mars opening was pure X-men. I thought "In Blackest Night" was a significant step forward and the Aquaman arc was slightly weaker, but still stronger than SO. I haven't seen the newest show, so hopefully it gets better.

I will give JL credit for keeping the rubberyness to a minimum. It's tight and clean, but stiff and awkward at times. I blame that on Koko, not Timm and company, though this stuff has to be approved, so who knows? If it is an issue of time, well that could be a tough nut to crack, but if it is money, then given the ratings, I would think they could negotiate for more.

[ZorBrak]

I still say BTAS only becuase JL has yet to tie up loose ends in continuity, and I go crazy when contunity doesn;t match in aspects of two series. What I am speaking of is the switch to John Stewart. As much as I like the new GL's attitude and all, I still don't like the fact that they took out the original GL just to be Politcally Correct. That's so stupid, had they done an arc to explain his replacement with John Stewart I would have been much more approving of this move, but just becuase "It would have been a bunch of white guys and that wouldn't be right" is a STUPID explanation and frankly thats just as racist to remove someone just because they are all white. Frankly I think making big deals over petty things like race is absurd, I don't give a damn what race anyone is, just don't mess with stuff if it has already been set in a show just to follow what is deemed as politically "correct", it screws up continuity and thows off fans who want logical explanations to keep contuity strong, especially do not do a stunt like this without reasonable explanation...its just stupid to do so, and I'm still hoping for an arc explaining the old GLs absence...

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by ZorBrak
I still say BTAS only becuase JL has yet to tie up loose ends in continuity, and I go crazy when contunity doesn;t match in aspects of two series. What I am speaking of is the switch to John Stewart. As much as I like the new GL's attitude and all, I still don't like the fact that they took out the original GL just to be Politcally Correct. That's so stupid, had they done an arc to explain his replacement with John Stewart I would have been much more approving of this move, but just becuase "It would have been a bunch of white guys and that wouldn't be right" is a STUPID explanation and frankly thats just as racist to remove someone just because they are all white. Frankly I think making big deals over petty things like race is absurd, I don't give a damn what race anyone is, just don't mess with stuff if it has already been set in a show just to follow what is deemed as politically "correct", it screws up continuity and thows off fans who want logical explanations to keep contuity strong, especially do not do a stunt like this without reasonable explanation...its just stupid to do so, and I'm still hoping for an arc explaining the old GLs absence... I agree with you on the GL thing. I really like John Stewart as GL. He really rocks. But i say Bruce Should have used John Stewart in the first place then or at least explained what happend to Kyle. I DON'T CARE HOW THEY EXPLAIN IT JUST EXPLAIN IT. Just explain it. the could say kyle died and John replaced him or something just fix the continuity. But on another note.
JLTAS has the ability to far surpass STAS and BTAS and i think by the 3 season it will have.

[ZorBrak]

I agree with you, I think it has the ability to surpase STAS and BTAS, other than the animation that everyone seems to have some gripes with still, I think the show is improving on all fronts, if anyone has the Simpsons Season 1 set, you can see how much better the show got, as season 1 was only so so (I just bought it because I'm a completist hehe)

[Heehaw]

you can see how much better the show got, as season 1 was only so so

Agreed. I'm hoping this will occur with JL. TNBA had some real garbage, but sprinkled in the junk were some real gems. I'm hoping JL starts to shine. If the animation is poor, then what's the point.

[The Mad Hatter]

Even the hallowed B:TAS stumbled a lot during its first season. "Prophecy of Doom," anyone? The series is still young, and so far the episodes have been improving, I think.

[Heehaw]

Even the hallowed B:TAS stumbled a lot during its first season. "Prophecy of Doom," anyone? The series is still young, and so far the episodes have been improving, I think.

True, but the majority of the really bad episodes(animation-wise) can be attributed to Akom Productions. The truly awful shows were few, maybe between 20-25. I will admit that JL has improved since Secret Origins, though I still get this "average" vibe from it, just like most of BB.

[jm5150bc]

Originally posted by Heehaw


True, but the majority of the really bad episodes(animation-wise) can be attributed to Akom Productions. The truly awful shows were few, maybe between 20-25. I will admit that JL has improved since Secret Origins, though I still get this "average" vibe from it, just like most of BB.

Wouldn't it be great if these guys could just get TMS to do all of the shows ?! They certainly did the best ones of all 3 previous series'. I hated the KoKo animation for TNBA, but they did get most of the best stories. I just thought that they drew Batman himself really poorly. I fumed when "Mad Love" was done by KoKo !! "Never Fear" by TMS was by far the best animation from TNBA, in my opinion anyway.

I will say this, though... KoKo has really impressed me with JL, particularly on the current "Paradise Lost". The whole episode was just amazing.

[Heehaw]

I noticed that Koko(along with Dong Yang collaboration) did a ton of the TNBA episodes. I didn't realize that they worked on Mad Love, though. I think that is one of the best shows, animation-wise(and story) in TNBA.

[G. Wen]

I think B:TAS was a better show because it had development. We got to see the characters develop, the plots develop, and the conflicts w/ the villians develop. W/ JL, it mostly action, w/ no reason behind it.

[gregstones]

On the animation:

I did a little research, and I have discovered why Disney animation always looks smoother than anything from Warner Bros. TV animation: Disney has it's own Japanese animation studio. This allows them a certain degree of consistency in their work. Furthermore, for each episode of Gargoyles, Disney was spending $500,000. I would be curious to know what an episode of Justice League costs. (I know that the WB will be spending about $400,000+ on each new Scooby Doo episode, so I'm sure JL must be getting that kind of money, which means a lack of funds cannot necessarily be blamed for anything that is lacking within the show.)

It's crazy, but the more I post here, the more I start to feel that I should abandon my current career as a photo-realistic artist and get into animation, just so I can eventually make a difference. All my collectors and followers would be horrified, of course, but animation lovers everywhere would definitely benefit...

Hurry up and get better, JL. I don't want to have to move to California.

[mbaker]

Since you've all made some good points, my vote goes to Batman. Justice Leauge, or any of the other shows wouldn't have existed if it weren't for Batman. The show had alot of stregnth in plot, and character. (More so than the live action films.) Superman, and Batman Beyond had at least some of that quality carried over. Don't get me wrong, I love these shows dearly, and Justice Leauge has proven to have great potential, but like i said, I'd give it some time. If Bruce can stick to his guns, iron out some of the bugs, get TMS to animate all future episodes, and bring back Paul Dini, Michele Reeves, and Frank Puar. Then Justice Leauge has a chace to be just as good as Batman.

[Jack]

Originally posted by gregstones
It's crazy, but the more I post here, the more I start to feel that I should abandon my current career as a photo-realistic artist and get into animation, just so I can eventually make a difference. All my collectors and followers would be horrified, of course, but animation lovers everywhere would definitely benefit...

Hurry up and get better, JL. I don't want to have to move to California.
Would it be possible for you to just paint on the side still?

I think JL could use some stronger design in it too.

I think WB needs to open it's own overseas studio, and get some of the top animators over there. Then there would be consistancy. I think that's the biggest difference between animation done today, and animation done in the theatrical cartoon days. Directors had a team of animators, and they knew all the animators strengths and weaknesses. They could then assign whatever scene the animator was best suited for. Today, no one knows who's going to animate something. You could be getting a real hack artist doing something that looks great in all the storyboards and such.


Jack :D

[gregstones]

Originally posted by Jack

Would it be possible for you to just paint on the side still?

Jack :D

I wish. Two problems: I have spent 6 years building my reputation for fine art on the East Coast, and moving to the West Coast would force me to start from scratch with an unknown audience. Secondly, if I were working for Warner Bros., there wouldn't be any energy left over for my own photo-realistic work, which is in itself incredibly draining to produce. If Warners just wanted me as a consultant, that would be one thing, but I'm at a point in my career where I really need to continue riding the wave I'm on.

Oh well.

[Mattashell]

Hi, I'd just like to post my opinion without reflecting on any ongoing debates. Here's my choice for the best to worst of these shows.

#1) B:TAS, Visually the best character designs and the best Gotham. Dini's storylines were top notch and the characters had a lot of depth and personalities. Villain's motives often made sense.

#2)BB, I'm surprised that most people on this board don't like this show that much. Maybe because it didn't take most of it's characters from the comics. It concentrated on characters and story more than any other except B:TAS. Visually I found it to be stylisticly cool. The animation and character designs seemed futuristicly streamlined to blend well with the techno soundtrack. I really liked the look of the red and black Batmobile cockpit scenes.

#3)S:TAS, Everytime it seems like it's going to be a plot based episode and it turns into a slugfest. Every episode either a person falls from a precipice, or a large object plunges from the sky toward a panicing mob so superman can swoop down and catch him/her/it in mid-air. Bizarro and Mxyzptlk always made for good episodes, but it wasn't enough. The animation was not in league with B:TAS either. Let me cover my butt by saying Superman was a very good show and I liked it a lot. I am only pointing out that it was not the best of the DC animated shows.

#4)JL, The Justice League must fight a bunch of giant monsters in order to get back a magical object from a villian bent on destroying the world, because he's evil. Yawn. This show needs to find some depth of character and real plots. Like I said about S:TAS I like the show but I'd like it a lot more with a generous helping of personality.

#5)BTNA, This one I make no apologies for. I genuinely dislike it. The stories are crap compared to B:TAS. All the characters are poorly drawn. The women's heads have grown to the size of beachballs. Batman (or any other adult) should be more responsible then to have a child the age of Tim Drake as his Robin. It would be cool if he was in Wayne's foster care and training to become the next Robin, but who would dare have him doing field work (fan's of The Ripping Friends would see this aspect parodied in the "Man Man" episode). Tim Drake's and Barbera Gordon's voices are like nails on a chalkboard (and you people complain about Wonder Woman). The only good thing is Penguin finally looks like he should, but everyone else looks exactly like they shouldn't. Catwoman, Joker and Mad Hatter especially look awful. Also supernatural themes are present here which seemed to be consciously avoided on B:TAS, even Ra's Al Ghul always seemed to have some scientific explaination behind him.

Zeta Project was a spin off of BB. I must confess this is a show I have never seen.

Mattashell