The earth is for all of us

[sun]

While there is some controversy on "global warming" here is a new study showing that "transportation" is the cause of increased pollution in 28 states..Remember we all breath the air, no matter how you stand on this.
Report: Global Warming Pollution Has Doubled in 28 States Since 1960

The U.S. Public Interest Research Group released an analysis of government data today showing that 28 states more than doubled their carbon dioxide emissions (http://uspirg.org/uspirgnewsroom.asp?id2=24976) between 1960 and 2001.
One major culprit of the spike in emissions: Increased combustion of oil to fuel our cars and trucks, which accounted for 40% of the total rise. “Oil emissions from the transportation sector soared over the period due to a dramatic rise in vehicle travel and the stagnating fuel efficiency of vehicles (http://uspirg.org/uspirgnewsroom.asp?id2=24977), while oil emissions from every other sector peaked in the 1970s”:
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/emissionssmall.GIF (http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/emissionsfull.GIF)
Read the full report HERE (http://uspirg.org/uspirgnewsroom.asp?id2=24976). Also today, Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) released the Safe Climate Act (http://www.henrywaxman.house.gov/waxman/safeclimate/index.htm), which sets strict targets to significantly reduce global warming pollution.
The U.S. PIRG report underscores the need for immediate action to avoid a global climate crisis. As James Hansen, director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, said last December: “The Earth’s climate is nearing, but has not passed, a tipping point, beyond which it will be impossible to avoid climate change with far ranging undesirable consequences.” These consequences, he said, would “constitute practically a different planet (http://uspirg.org/uspirgnewsroom.asp?id2=24976)” and include sea level rise, heat waves, drought, more intense hurricanes, decreased crop yields, and water scarcity.

[Chad Bonin]

Atlanta has the longest commute of any city in the country. Also, my three member family drives three Ford Explorers. I once did a lab in class that revealed that my household emits three times the max amounts of bad air something.

Naturally, air quality doesn't matter for us. And I truly don't mind. If we get to the "oh crap, air's bad" moment, I'm sure science will either figure something out, or I'll be dead already by then.

[William C. Maune]

or I'll be dead already by then.

What about your children though? Plus, that bad air can add up over time to cause health effects later in life. By then, to reduce the health effects it is more than just a matter of cleaning up the air due to the long term harm.

[Captain Highwind]

If the automobile industry would pick up Sony's advertising ability we'd have more environmentally-efficient vehicles by now.

[Ben]

Naturally, air quality doesn't matter for us. And I truly don't mind. If we get to the "oh crap, air's bad" moment, I'm sure science will either figure something out, or I'll be dead already by then.

Yikes. When I was a kid there were days when we weren't supposed to spend too much time outside because of smog, and sometimes there was a yellow cloud on the horizon. Old people got respiratory diseases. I don't know why you'd want to contribute to something like that.

[Chad Bonin]

What about your children though?
Will, you know me. And even in the case I would have kids, I'd hope that they'd be smarter than me, and if they're smarter than me, they can figure this kind of crap out.

Yikes. When I was a kid there were days when we weren't supposed to spend too much time outside because of smog, and sometimes there was a yellow cloud on the horizon. Old people got respiratory diseases. I don't know why you'd want to contribute to something like that.
Where did you grow up?

And, if the Earth belongs to all of us, I reserve the right to destroy my little bit from lack of caring.

[Youko Recca]

And, if the Earth belongs to all of us, I reserve the right to destroy my little bit from lack of caring.

Man, WTF kinda attitude is that?

[Kury Wagner]

Man, WTF kinda attitude is that?Pretty much the same attitude I have. I mean, I actually loath SUVs, because they really do more harm than not, but I'm not all "The sky is falling, let's live like sheltered biodome people!" There's nothing I can easily do to help, so psh. I recycle paper, plastic, and aluminum; that's as eco-friendly as Kury'll ever get.

[Youko Recca]

Pretty much the same attitude I have. I mean, I actually loath SUVs, because they really do more harm than not, but I'm not all "The sky is falling, let's live like sheltered biodome people!" There's nothing I can easily do to help, so psh. I recycle paper, plastic, and aluminum; that's as eco-friendly as Kury'll ever get.

I'm like that also, but let's look at how he put it in comparison to you. I mean, if he was like "What can I do, I wish I could change it but I'm one guy. I can't afford to change my lifestyle for a childlike fantasy that my cycling method will effect alone."

It's like there was no remorse in that.

[William C. Maune]

Pretty much the same attitude I have. I mean, I actually loath SUVs, because they really do more harm than not, but I'm not all "The sky is falling, let's live like sheltered biodome people!" There's nothing I can easily do to help, so psh. I recycle paper, plastic, and aluminum; that's as eco-friendly as Kury'll ever get.

I don't think anyone is saying we should live like sheltered biodome people. There is a large area between that and doing little or nothing.

[Chad Bonin]

I'm like that also, but let's look at how he put it in comparison to you. I mean, if he was like "What can I do, I wish I could change it but I'm one guy. I can't afford to change my lifestyle for a childlike fantasy that my cycling method will effect alone."

It's like there was no remorse in that.
One man cannot make a difference. If I actually recycled or had a less emission emitting car or... ya know, cared, I would do something... but I'm one out of nearly seven billion people.


Pretty much the same attitude I have. I mean, I actually loath SUVs, because they really do more harm than not, but I'm not all "The sky is falling, let's live like sheltered biodome people!" There's nothing I can easily do to help, so psh. I recycle paper, plastic, and aluminum; that's as eco-friendly as Kury'll ever get.
I've raised you well, young Mystic Knight/SPD Cadet in training...

[William C. Maune]

One man cannot make a difference. If I actually recycled or had a less emission emitting car or... ya know, cared, I would do something... but I'm one out of nearly seven billion people.

Each takes each person of a larger number of people making a difference to make a difference.

A large number of people don't make a difference only when each of those people don't make a difference.

[Chad Bonin]

I don't think anyone is saying we should live like sheltered biodome people. There is a large area between that and doing little or nothing.
Don't forget that The Weasel did some research for Bio-Dome 2, and discovered that any bio-enclosure, let it be sphere, dome, or decahedron, is fundamentally flawed.

[Captain Zechs]

Im pretty much with Chad on this, I mean seriously, who cares, we will all die eventually.

[Youko Recca]

One man cannot make a difference. If I actually recycled or had a less emission emitting car or... ya know, cared, I would do something... but I'm one out of nearly seven billion people.

See, I get what you saying, but the thing about it is that you seem to lack any remorse about the fact you're "forced" to uphold this means of life.



Im pretty much with Chad on this, I mean seriously, who cares, we will all die eventually.

Man....you're SO right. What was I thinking. You know, I'm gon' go ahead and quit my job cause, HEY, don't need the money!!! Gon' die anyway!!

[William C. Maune]

Im pretty much with Chad on this, I mean seriously, who cares, we will all die eventually.

What about all the people who will still be around after you die?

[krazymed]

Isn't this a political issue? Thought we couldn't talk about that stuff here.

[William C. Maune]

Isn't this a political issue? Thought we couldn't talk about that stuff here.

Ultimately it is up to the Cafe Mods, but I generally see it as a science issue, not a political issue. Plus, there isn't any political discussion so far.

[Punisher]

Im pretty much with Chad on this, I mean seriously, who cares, we will all die eventually.That's just being an ass. If the founding fathers of this country knew they were "just going to die eventually" then they wouldn't have been willing to give their lives in a war for the freedom and rights of the generations that came after them. Would you want your kids to die of some lung disease because of how bad the air is?

[RD!]

And, if the Earth belongs to all of us, I reserve the right to destroy my little bit from lack of caring.

Naturally, air quality doesn't matter for us. And I truly don't mind. If we get to the "oh crap, air's bad" moment, I'm sure science will either figure something out, or I'll be dead already by then.

One man cannot make a difference. If I actually recycled or had a less emission emitting car or... ya know, cared, I would do something... but I'm one out of nearly seven billion people.

I've raised you well, young Mystic Knight/SPD Cadet in training...

Don't forget that The Weasel did some research for Bio-Dome 2, and discovered that any bio-enclosure, let it be sphere, dome, or decahedron, is fundamentally flawed.What is wrong with you? Your opinion is... so terrible, ignorant and irresponsible that you've honestly managed to offend me. But worse are these last two replies. Congratulating someone on being a disgusting leech like you? Quoting Pauley Shore on Futurama? Come on.

[Humble]

"Who cares" is an attitude of convenience, not logic. Collective apathy or ignorance is not an excuse to do whatever is convenient for yourself.

Like it or not, we're responsible for the world that was handed down to us. Our legacy should be one of responsibility, not self serving apathy.

-Humble

[sun]

"Who cares" is an attitude of convenience, not logic. Collective apathy or ignorance is not an excuse to do whatever is convenient for yourself.

Like it or not, we're responsible for the world that was handed down to us. Our legacy should be one of responsibility, not self serving apathy.

-Humble

Exceptionally well put. Not careing is the ultimate selfishness. Of course we need to eat, take care of ourselves, family, etc. but beyound that, there is more. Those who do not see Humble's truth, will ultimately hurt us all. In simplier terms, it is the extreme drunk who gets behind the wheel, and thinks he is ok, and doesn't care what happens..that car is a lethal weapon.
......................................Stuart

[SSJPabs]

And, if the Earth belongs to all of us, I reserve the right to destroy my little bit from lack of caring.And because it does, we reserve the right to try and stop you. After all, they don't let you burn trash on your lawn because the smoke drifts into the neighbor's yard. Regarding the idea that the future will take care of itself, if we don't start trying to figure it out NOW, by the time that we'll NEED it, it may very well be too late to prevent major problems.

Seriously though, I'm not sure how it is on the coasts, but at least in the smaller places in the midwest, the cities weren't designed with public transportation in mind. We built "out" but not "up" and so we have farther to go and it places limits on the practicality of using low-polution technologies like bicycles or roller-blades. In addition, the public transportation system is relatively primative and designed for low-density use so even if we did all use it, it would be inadequate. That's not to say it would be a lost cause to use mass transit, but it's not always easy and it's not an idea that is terribly common.

While it's not directly related to transportation the Science House (http://www.smm.org/sciencehouse/) at the Science Museum of Minnesota is pretty interesting--a house that produces more energy than it consumes and in the Minnesota climate, one where at one end of the spectrum you can have -30 below days in January and 100 degree days in August. After all, we use things like coal power plants to provide electricity and if there's less demand you burn less coal which is probably a good idea in terms of reducing air pollution as well lowering electric bills!

[Ben]

Wow, Chad. You are the most convincing piece of evidence I've ever seen for the importance of government environmental regulations. And I grew up in LA.

[Wanted]

You know what? I would recycle if I could... sure, the bins are outside, but how can I be sure that they're actually going to a recycling center?

But, another issue... you can't just claim that the Earth is for all of us. The richer you are (in today's society, it appears), the more of a stake in the Earth you could have. The poorer you are, the more miniscule that stake becomes. Sure, we can breathe the air, but, people are starting to pay for that, too.

Quant à « économiser le monde » ... there is no real way to go about it. Where should I start first? Get a ride on the cheese bus instead of in my mother's car, because that's where they're both going to end up (at school). Should I start riding my bike? Streets are dangerous, and Piscataway doesn't exactly have the best sidewalk system on the Earth... but, they're working on it. Besides, my tires are flat, and there usually aren't bike racks everywhere.

[William C. Maune]

You know what? I would recycle if I could... sure, the bins are outside, but how can I be sure that they're actually going to a recycling center?

If they are labeled recycling then they are probably going to the recycling center. It wouldn't make much sense for them not to. Do you have an reason to believe they aren't.


But, another issue... you can't just claim that the Earth is for all of us. The richer you are (in today's society, it appears), the more of a stake in the Earth you could have. The poorer you are, the more miniscule that stake becomes. Sure, we can breathe the air, but, people are starting to pay for that, too.

Money is irrelevant. The Earth is for all of us because we all have to live here (and we haven't colonized other planets yet). No matter how much money you have, you live your life here on Earth.


Quant à « économiser le monde » ... there is no real way to go about it. Where should I start first? Get a ride on the cheese bus instead of in my mother's car, because that's where they're both going to end up (at school). Should I start riding my bike? Streets are dangerous, and Piscataway doesn't exactly have the best sidewalk system on the Earth... but, they're working on it. Besides, my tires are flat, and there usually aren't bike racks everywhere.

Not everybody is going to do everything. However, that doesn't mean you should do nothing. People should do what they can.

[sun]

This story came off the wires this afternoon..The earth has a fever and we are the reason...It is written by the National Academy of Science, seems very reliable, and honest...It is not long, maybe 15 short easy to read paragraphs, and worth the read...
Here is the link...read it if you wish :Study says Earth's temp at 400-year high... (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/apts/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060622/ap_on_sc/global_warming)


William C is correct..if we do not start to do something, whatever we can do,
now, we may never have time to start to do anything.

[Wanted]

If they are labeled recycling then they are probably going to the recycling center. It wouldn't make much sense for them not to. Do you have an reason to believe they aren't.Yeah... my mother told me that the trash in the school's recycling bins get mixed in with the other trash by the custodians... though, I guess I could try to recycle paper in the bins. Wouldn't hurt.


Not everybody is going to do everything. However, that doesn't mean you should do nothing. People should do what they can.That's right... where would one recycle old wooden tables, or televisions? Might be throwing some stuff out in a few years.

[Ruffian]

Yeah... my mother told me that the trash in the school's recycling bins get mixed in with the other trash by the custodians... though, I guess I could try to recycle paper in the bins. Wouldn't hurt.

That's right... where would one recycle old wooden tables, or televisions? Might be throwing some stuff out in a few years.
You could ask around if there's a place that'll take in old furniture or donate them to good will if they are still in good shape. My family donates reusable items to good will all the time. As for electronic waste, I would do some research either on the net or asking the city if they know where to recycle or properly dump these items.

Looking into your community programs is a good way to recycle or properly dispose wastes such as paints and electronics. My city holds a big electronic and chemical waste collection at the racetrack at least once a year.

This link is for the county of Los Angeles, but it's got some simple general information on recycling and disposing items: http://www.888cleanla.com.

[Jave]

And, if the Earth belongs to all of us, I reserve the right to destroy my little bit from lack of caring.There's no such "right" on destroying the Earth, specially since once you die (as you put it yourself) that little bit of Earth will belong to somebody else.

[Czar Gato]

There's no such "right" on destroying the Earth, specially since once you die (as you put it yourself) that little bit of Earth will belong to somebody else.
Exactly. The Earth belongs not only to everyone alive now, but also to everyone in the future. We have to take our children's children into consideration as well.

[Chad Bonin]

Exactly. The Earth belongs not only to everyone alive now, but also to everyone in the future. We have to take our children's children into consideration as well.
Once again, my children (if I had them) should be smart enough to fix the problems I create. If not, survival of the fittest.

[William C. Maune]

Once again, my children (if I had them) should be smart enough to fix the problems I create. If not, survival of the fittest.

Wouldn't it be better for them if they didn't have to deal with fixing the problems?

[Chad Bonin]

Wouldn't it be better for them if they didn't have to deal with fixing the problems?
Gives 'em something to do.

I'm not gonna, like, go out of the way to destroy the environment. I just know that me myself not caring will not affect the world.

[William C. Maune]

Gives 'em something to do.

They would probably rather play their PS11, XBox pi, or Nintento Pu though than have to deal with the problems we create today.


I'm not gonna, like, go out of the way to destroy the environment. I just know that me myself not caring will not affect the world.

But it does affect the world. If it didn't then that would mean that no one's individual actions have an effect on the world and thus there wouldn't be any problems. However, there are problems, because people's action do have an effect on the world, and the people's are made up of the acts of individuals.

[Ben]

Gives 'em something to do.

I'm not gonna, like, go out of the way to destroy the environment. I just know that me myself not caring will not affect the world.

Ted Turner would ****ing kill you, Chad. And he lives nearby so you'd better watch out.

[The Landstander]

Is your glass half empty Chad?

[Chad Bonin]

They would probably rather play their PS11, XBox pi, or Nintento Pu though than have to deal with the problems we create today.
If my kids would "rather play" a PS11 over Nintento Pu, I'll officially disown them, as I've raised them wrong.


If it didn't then that would mean that no one's individual actions have an effect on the world
EXACTLY.


Ted Turner would ****ing kill you, Chad. And he lives nearby so you'd better watch out.
CAPTAIN PLANNEETTTT! Anyway, I have a little Ranger Cadet/Mystic Knight In Training by my side, along with an arsenal of henshin devices (soon to be added? The Boukenger Accelular/Operation Overdrive Morpher)


Is your glass half empty Chad?
My glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's a half glass of water, or at least I hope it's water.

[William C. Maune]

If my kids would "rather play" a PS11 over Nintento Pu, I'll officially disown them, as I've raised them wrong.

It's the Nintendo Pu then, which I'm sure they'd rather play than have to spend extra time cleaning up our messes.



EXACTLY.

Not exactly. We have pollution, we have problems. Those problems wouldn't exist without individual actions. Thus individual actions do have an effect on the world.


My glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's a half glass of water, or at least I hope it's water.

Whether or not it is water depends on how many of the chemicals being released by Ford Explorers ended up in it.

[Punisher]

If my kids would "rather play" a PS11 over Nintento Pu, I'll officially disown them, as I've raised them wrong.So you're going with the popular "do what I say, not what I do" method?

[Ben]

My glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's a half glass of water, or at least I hope it's water.

Never mind that it's brown and tastes weird. Maybe that's the lead, or maybe the mercury. But who cares, you'll be dead soon anyway.

You had to have seen that one coming.

[Conan-san]

Never mind that it's brown and tastes weird. Maybe that's the lead, or maybe the mercury. But who cares, you'll be dead soon anyway.

You had to have seen that one coming. Is that the sound of pure ownage I just here there?

[Wounded_Dragon]

Naturally, air quality doesn't matter for us. And I truly don't mind. If we get to the "oh crap, air's bad" moment, I'm sure science will either figure something out, or I'll be dead already by then.

Science has figured some things out. It's the economic forces that are suppressing the solutions.

And frankly, the nonchalance that some people have regarding this issue is rather repugnant. How many people will it take to die of this before you take action?

[sun]

Science has figured some things out. It's the economic forces that are suppressing the solutions.

And frankly, the nonchalance that some people have regarding this issue is rather repugnant. How many people will it take to die of this before you take action?
Wounded has it right....And it isn't just us older people that have issues with the air..Asthma, has increased substantially over the years among children.
It (lung disorders of all kinds) is the only disease in the U.S.A. that has shown dramatic increases over the last decade. Facts on this are easily available on the net.....
..Yep that is right...cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. have increased only in relationship to the population.Some have actually deacreased...And on this I am positive...Asthma, bronchitis, lung cancer, and other lung disorders, directly related to air, have far outstriped the increase in population..Especially in large cities, and I suspect, but do not know, near airports. Atlanta and Chicago have the busiest airports in the country...
...Now you can't see it, so many don't want to believe it.
....It is common now for school nurses to have the inhaliers of those children that must use them throughout the day...
.. It is sad that people do not want to take action..Ok. The Z man has stated previously, in another thread, that even new SUVs, of a certain kind can be far less poluting, than some of the cleaner cars now.
..You know what pollutes the most around people's houses?...Lawn moweres...4 times the pollution than a car..The lawn mower comapnies refuse to change their gas engines,,too expensive...Electric mowers are almost totally pollution free, compared to the gas ones..Oh yes, you got to buy once ,a very long electric chord...Everyone can do something..If they care to. I guess some don't care, because, sadly, they think it can't affect them...(me, let's think of me, no one else matters..) Sure. It is all about me. If we don't work with each other, we will not make it..It is slow and invasive, and invisible..I pray for us all..........................................Stuart

[Otaku Bishop]

One man cannot make a difference. If I actually recycled or had a less emission emitting car or... ya know, cared, I would do something... but I'm one out of nearly seven billion people.Good point, mate, but you're still a cause. I am, too. Even a little can help a lot. I'm not saying we should all ride bikes, (that would hurt after a while...:sweat:) but we need to reduce air pollution by driving less. That, or scientists need to patent them frickin' solar powered cars they continue to brag about...

[Lucky Bob]

Ah, global warming is now back in the news. Guess there haven't been any white blonde girls kidnapped, all the celebrity babies have suddenly grown up, and the AT&T-military complex has not planted any eggs in our brains lately.

Now, despite the fact that the basic rule on political discussion as it pertains to the Cafe is:



Political discussion may be identified by the degree in which the issue (current or otherwise) is directly influenced or initiated by partisan interests (i.e. discussions on the war in Iraq or statements/speeches made by the political parties within the gov't should be considered inherently political).


...global warming is a different case because it involves SCIENCE.

Thus, in order to keep completely above board, I will preface this little rant with the International Symbol of SCIENCE...ness:


http://www.wma.com/0/cta/college/lectures/images/Bill_Nye.jpg


Personally, I'm with the other guy named Chad. Firstly, because I'm all for giant commercial interests screwing the planet so that their Machiavellian leaders can enjoy overpriced retirements on tropical resorts. In fact, the more they screw the planet, the more chance we have that ALL the world will be a tropical resort. With palm trees! And malaria! Won't that be fun?

Secondly, from most of the stories I've read, scientists didn't have thermometors in the 1600s, so they've had to rely on indirect data (i.e.: sort-of-educated-guesses) to come to the GRAND conclusion that the earth has a fever because we aren't givin' it enough cowbell.

I'm sure this is a very accurate description of the impending doom and gloom, because it's SCIENCE! But unfortunately, I have a hard time taking seriously any idea that humans have the ultimate answer to the climate problem. Why? Because I see dozens of SCIENTISTS every night, all of them apparently named Giorgio Armani, telling me that due to their calculations of past events, Hurricane Katrina will hit Florida, and we won't get a speck of rain tomorrow. So I do what any gullible cretin does, and I go to wash my car because SCIENCE says that there's NO WAY it's going to rain tomorrow. And the thunderclouds do laugh at my human arrogance, and deluge the earth before I go through the blow dry cycle.

So, I really don't care what scientists say about what's going to happen to my children, or my children's children. (How did my kids have children, anyway? Daddy's got a LOOOONG talk for them when they get home.) Show me accuracy for flippin' TOMORROW, not broad Nostradamus predictions that the world might blow up in a zillion years. Kinda like going ant hunting with a nuke.

So remember kids. Don't cross your eyes or they will stay that way, remember to duck and cover, and close that door! You wanna heat the whole world? Remember, SCIENCE RULES!

[Chad Bonin]

Ya know, I was about to pop into the thread and reply, but...

Seeing Bill Nye makes me want to go on a 4Chan-ism of it being NyeDay and "INERTIA IS A PROPERTY OF MATTER".

[DarkGojira]

Once again, my children (if I had them) should be smart enough to fix the problems I create. If not, survival of the fittest.

You know what? Here's a thought: Instead of hoping that you're future children should smart enough to fix the problems you create, why don't you just TEACH THEM on how to fix problems you create.

Children just cannot be smart about fixing problems just willy-nilly. Schools can help, but it also YOUR responsibility to teach them on how to fix problems whenever you, or possibly even themselves, should start it.

[SSJPabs]

Something Something Something... then:
BILL NYE!

http://www.wma.com/0/cta/college/lectures/images/Bill_Nye.jpg
Something Something Something
Your entire post can be boiled down to "I don't believe in global warming because meteorologists aren't right all the time."

Predicting the weather involves such a huge ammount of factors that perfect predictions are asking far too much add to that the human tendencies to remember things that stand out (i.e. the weather guy being wrong) and it's no surprise that anecdotal experience can lead to an incorrect conclusion. Do you really want to keep track of all the times that meteorolgists are right?

Science deals in correlation and probability and the point of the whole report is that all the indicators we have agree on a general warming trend since the Little Ice Age that has been almost certainly affected by human action. We have made great strides in both ammount and prediction of weather phenomena in the last 100 or so years. That continues to improve and of course the farther back you go the harder it is to predict, but I fail to see evidence the general consensus is wrong--certainly not on the scale of the evidence that the consensus is right. We can certainly see it in the spread and thickness of the glaciers in our own time.

BTW, studying the Little Ice Age is an excellent illustration of how a temperature variance of 2 to 4 degrees can cause major effects and alter the progress of civilizations.

[Captain Highwind]

That, or scientists need to patent them frickin' solar powered cars they continue to brag about...

Thank you. With solar batteried cars, we can be as lazy as we want. :p

C'mon R&D, I want my Tron car! (With glowing blue strobe lights on the side panels)

[Roman Legion]

Wounded has it right....And it isn't just us older people that have issues with the air..Asthma, has increased substantially over the years among children.

Asthma, bronchitis, lung cancer, and other lung disorders, directly related to air, have far outstriped the increase in population..Especially in large cities, and I suspect, but do not know, near airports. Atlanta and Chicago have the busiest airports in the country...

....It is common now for school nurses to have the inhaliers of those children that must use them throughout the day...Both my siblings have asthma. I even have a milder form of asthma that I thankfully don't have to think about most of the time. My brother's asthma is the most severe. He requires an inhaler on a daily basis.

...then the FDA came along and tried to ban inhalers earlier this year, since the things use chlorofluorcarbons (relatively small amounts).

I'm in favor of rational environmentalism. We need to think about the long term effects of our actions, but we also need to consider the immediate impact of these measures.

Another example! Our town's landfill began enforcing mandatory recycling a few years ago. Sounds like a great idea. Then they put extraordinary charges on recycling. The end result: most everyone in town signed up for a waste management company that just ships things off to another landfill. Urgh.

Successful environmentalism depends on good sociology. =x

--Romey

[DarkGojira]

It would help if people started to buy Hybrids. Those are the type of cars that don't give off smoke, and it can help the earth.

[zmanjz]

Several years ago, my College geography professor taught me that much of what you see in temperature increases come from "Urban Heat Island" effects. And that if people spent less time on hysterics, and more time learning some science, the problems they complain about would have already been fixed.

In that most weather stations were built at the burgoning airports... airports that were basically dirt fields.

As construction increased, Asphalt (Roads, runways, etc) which retains heat, made the LOCAL temperature surrounding most of the NWS weather stations increase.

Of course, the NWS has built weather data collection stations in areas that were not effected by "Urban Heat Island" localized effects. BUT at the same time, much of the "Temperatures are on the rise" data comes from these locations and as a result, their application in worldwide atmospheric data collection is limited.
http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/UrbanProfile.gif

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/Armagh-CET.gif

I recomend looking at http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/

And it's true, you have far more to fear from water vapor than CO2 or the like. (Considering the thermal radiant effects of water vapor on the earth's atmosphere when compared to that of CO2, or alternate gaseous mollecules.)

What do we know? We know that:

1. At one point, Antarctica was a tropical Jungle.

2. At one point, there were Glaciers covering most of the US, and all of Canada.

3. At several points over the development of the earth, the rotation of the earth's inner core reached speed levels which caused the magnetic field to reverse polarity.

4. It is quite possible for a single random volcanic eruption to inject more foreign material into the atmosphere, than entire GENERATIONS of all of mankind's actions.

Is the earth warming? YES.

Is the Earth supposed to be warming? YES.

If mankind didn't exist would the earth still be warming? YES.

so that being the case, it's clear that our Impact is less important than us developing technology to counteract the natural heating of the earth.

If you want the earth to remain static, then you want to induce an unnatural state of being into a system. Right now, we don't have the technology to SAFELY counteract the earth's warming process. (And in case anyone is confused, I agree that the earth is warming in "Geologic time" but in "Human Time" the increases have been negligible. Though the freezing process created by a impact could constitute an unnatural freezing.)



Oh, and as for Hybrids, they polute far more than the new low-sulfur diesel fuel vehicles, because #1 Hybrids still run on Gasoline, and Diesel engines work by burning the fuel far hotter than a gasoline engine, thereby using the fuel more efficiently, and destroying most of the pollutants. (Of Course, a Diesel-electric Hybrid would be the most efficient and environmentally friendly engine in the world....... maybe that's why GE sells so many diesel-electric hybrid Locomotive engines.

[The Guitar Slayer]

It's not a matter of whether or not the earth is supposed to be warming -- it is. Has been since the last ice age. And yes, it would still be warming if people weren't about.

However, humans are accelerating it. Additionally, what we're using to accelerate the process is running out; the car exhaust that's going into the atmosphere is coming from our natural oil and gas resources. Hence the argument for the hybrids: less garbage in, less garbage out.

However, having taken a look at that in my eco class last semester, the only feasible option at the moment is propane. Solar power is really only feasible in extremely sunny places; it could work in California or Hawaii, but England? Electrical cars will only work when we have garnered enough alternative methods of gathering energy in order to convert into electricity in the first place. Hydrogen conversion still needs to be perfected, otherwise it's too expensive for the common man. Propane is common enough, and while it still isn't ideal, it causes less harm than gas. The big problem is the size of the tank you'd have to carry around, since propane takes up more room than gasoline.



As for Knux: somebody obviously wants attention. Desperately. Other than that, I don't think he has an actual point in this thread.

[William C. Maune]

Ah, the Urban Heat Island effect. We actually did a study on that in my Meteorology department and it does exist. However, while there are definitely weather stations in cities and airports near cities, there are plenty of weather stations in rural areas as well, especially in the United States which has a lot of rural area. Thus, there is still plenty of data available.

I definitely agree about the diesel engines though.

[Conan-san]

On an unrealted note of sort:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BjrOi4vF24

Al Gore's Movie, geting way too much publisity, as advertised by Futureama.

[Squall]

...I generally see it as a science issue, not a political issue. Plus, there isn't any political discussion so far.

A reporter once asked Albert Einstein, "Mr. Einstein, over 100 of your fellow physicists signed a petition saying that they did not believe that the theory of relativity was true. How many scientists will have to sign the petition before you believe that you're wrong?" Einstein thought for a moment, and then replied, "It only takes one scientist to prove me wrong. And a petition is not scientific. They are trying to sway people's opinions because they can't change the facts."

I think about that famous exchange every time I hear or read in the news, "150 scientists sign a petition saying that they believe in global warming..." Why sign a petition? Why not run experiments and show the scientific community your data?


This story came off the wires this afternoon..The earth has a fever and we are the reason...It is written by the National Academy of Science, seems very reliable, and honest...It is not long, maybe 15 short easy to read paragraphs, and worth the read... Here is the link...read it if you wish :Study says Earth's temp at 400-year high... (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/apts/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060622/ap_on_sc/global_warming)

OK, that's a start. The problem is, statistics make good data hard to gather on such a large scale. First of all, how do you measure the "average temperature of the Earth"? Is it just the Earth's surface temperature? Just the temperature on the land? Why not the ocean, since it covers 70% of the Earth's surface? Even then, land temperatures range from -20 C to 50 C, depending on where you are and when you're there. For example, in school, if you get a 40% and a 100%, it averages to a 70%. You can say you passed, but you can also say you failed 1/2 of the class.

Also, the Earth's average temperature is at a 400 year high? Nice to know, since the Industrial Revolution started less than 200 years ago... What caused the global warming for the other more than 200 years?


If the automobile industry would pick up Sony's advertising ability we'd have more environmentally-efficient vehicles by now.

Are you talking about cars completely driven by electric motors? In theory, it's a great idea... electric cars would eliminate the smog problem in all major cities, for sure; but where is the electricity generated that the electric cars will use? Well, most people would plug the electric cars into special outlets in their garage, so this electricity will come from the same power plants the electricity your home uses comes from. In other words, if your local power plant still burns fossil fuels, electric cars won't help you save the environment. It just shifts the pollution from one source (exhaust pipes) and adds it to another already existing source of pollution (smokestacks, which will emit more smoke since they now have to generate more electricity to compensate for all the electric cars on the road).

Though many environmentalists loathe the idea, the most efficient, least polluting method of generating large amounts of electricity available to us is nuclear power. Yes, nuclear waste is nasty, radioactive stuff, but there's much, much less of it generated than the pollution generated from, say, a coal power plant. Besides, we could use a deep trench in the Pacific Ocean somewhere as a place to store all that nuclear waste generated worldwide.

Nuclear power plants + electric cars for everyone would take out a great deal of our fossil fuel pollution.


And, if the Earth belongs to all of us, I reserve the right to destroy my little bit from lack of caring.

This is where environmental concerns start diverging with an open, democratic society. For example, it's easy to protect the environment when it's public property, but what rights and responsibilities should the owners of private property have? Stating that "the Earth belongs to everyone" is a socialist statement, implying that there is not, or shouldn't be, any private property.

Now, don't get me wrong here; I'm a capitalist, but I agree wholeheartedly that damaging the environment out of apathy is simply wrong. However, one must recognize that, to live in an industrial society as we do, some part of the environement has to be damaged (if you define "damage" as "alter from its natural state in any way" -- by this definition, which some environmentalists use, even farms and pastures are damaged land) somewhere, somehow, or we can't live the lifestyle we do today. For example -- the house or apartment you're living in now required 'damaging' the land to bulid it; so did the factories that manufactured the clothes you're wearing, the computers we're typing on, and the DVDs we keep archives of all our favorite cartoons on. Take away everything, and we're all back to living in huts naked, eating berries. ;)

So the question becomes, how much of the environment are you willing to accept being damaged to live a comfortable life? I guarantee you it won't be 0%...

Now, that being said, what one does on private property can clearly affect another's private property, or public property -- which is where much of the responsibility side comes in.

It really gets into murky territory when discussions start coming up about air, water, and food supplies -- how much control should the government have over people's daily lives in order to keep the air and water clean, and the food supply healthy? We can start with extremes like making it illegal to bury radioactive waste in your backyard :p but then it doesn't take long until you get down to the level of restricting what you can eat, what you can drive, etc. Where do we draw the line?

[Wanted]

I'm pretty sure you just wrapped up the whole argument, Squall... but, it doesn't stop, does it?

[Ben]

So remember kids. Don't cross your eyes or they will stay that way, remember to duck and cover, and close that door! You wanna heat the whole world? Remember, SCIENCE RULES!

Yes, the scads of evidence that the Earth is experiencing a rise in temperature more rapid than any in its history is worthless because your car got wet. Thanks for the enlightening debate!


I think about that famous exchange every time I hear or read in the news, "150 scientists sign a petition saying that they believe in global warming..." Why sign a petition? Why not run experiments and show the scientific community your data?

Because they already did, and it doesn't seem to be working.


Nuclear power plants + electric cars for everyone would take out a great deal of our fossil fuel pollution.

Amen to that.


For example, it's easy to protect the environment when it's public property, but what rights and responsibilities should the owners of private property have? Stating that "the Earth belongs to everyone" is a socialist statement, implying that there is not, or shouldn't be, any private property.

No, it's not. From a strictly capitalist perspective, pollution is bad because it always decreases the value of property that doesn't belong to you. "Negative externalities" is just another way of saying "pissing on your neighbor's lawn" (or screwing with your neighbor's air, etc).

Heck, every April Korea gets swamped by enormous yellow dust storms caused by desertification in China. Overdevelopment ruins the soil, the land turns into desert, the sand gets kicked up into a storm and it drifts east. The thing literally blocked out the sun this year. And the dust also picks up mercury and other heavy metals from industrial pollution. So not only are we all getting temporary respiratory distress now, but we could also get lung cancer later. Whoopee.

My response to this is not a socialist, let's all get along and protect the environment type response. It's a capitalist, selfish, keep your polluted sand the hell out of my lungs type response. And when everyone has to deal with something like this down the road they'll wonder why they wussed out on protecting their air and water when they had the chance.

[Antiyonder]

Good point, mate, but you're still a cause. I am, too. Even a little can help a lot. I'm not saying we should all ride bikes, (that would hurt after a while...:sweat:) but we need to reduce air pollution by driving less.

That or have people take the bus more often. Someone posting in the traffic thread made a point about the reason for the huge majority of people driving their own cars, is, because a good percentage of the public associate use of public transportation and walking as a sign of being in poverty. And we all know how it's more important to flaunt your financial status than it is to reduce traffic jams and preserve clean air.

My last sentence is of course sarcasm.

[sun]

From Squall, "Also, the Earth's average temperature is at a 400 year high? Nice to know, since the Industrial Revolution started less than 200 years ago... What caused the global warming for the other more than 200 years?


What I have read, has already been stated, but I will repeat it..Glacier bores have found, that since the Industrial Revolution, especially the last 100 years, the rate of warming has increased significantly. Even in the last 20 years there has been an increase in the rate... It can be found around the world.
Yes, we are in a warmer perod, and would be no matter what. What is of concern, is the rate of warming, and the extent that greenhouse gases are causing it. That rate, if it continues to excellerate, I believe is dangerous..Some do not. Many feel the way I do.

If it is dangerous, then we must do something about it now. Assuming the rate is not dangerous, I believe is not wise..(Oh we will wait to see if things get really bad)...Once they get real bad, and no one knows when that will happen,( some say it won't happen, to be fair,) but if it does, then we are cooked sort to speak, It probably will not be reverseable at that point. Now it is.....I think we should use our resources to make sure it doesn't...

[William C. Maune]

"Negative externalities"

You are my hero.

[sun]

"Warm' species invading Antarctic".......This article off of the BBC discusses the appearance of animals in Antartica, that previously could not survive...These animals and plants, are a direct result of two factors...The increase in tourism to Antartica, and climate change...Invasive species destroy the ecosystem of an area. It is often silent and slow, but once there, they are almost impossible to eliminate. Prevention is the key...Ask fishermen around the country who have to deal with invasive fish that have destroyed the natural fish population in an area...We have seen this in Illinois......Read the article for yourself if you wish...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5101790. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5101790.stm)

[sun]

This story was in Sunday's, June 25, today, LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/media/thumbnails/blurb/2006-06/24080294.jpg (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-greenland25jun25,0,5155866.story?coll=la-home-headlines) Greenland's Glacial Glide (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-greenland25jun25,0,5155866.story?coll=la-home-headlines)
The ice sheets are melting twice as fast as they were five years ago. If they thaw entirely, sea levels would rise 21 feet. If you wish to read the entire story
here is the link...I suspect that this is a very real happening......http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-greenland25jun25,0,5155866.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[Ruffian]

Here's another article on global warming from Parade Magazine. It's succinct and general and it also gives reasons why one should care about global warming, if not for the weather then for your wallet.

PARADE Magazine - Why You Can't Ignore the Changing Climate (http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_06-25-2006/Climate_Change)

[Lucky Bob]

Yes, the scads of evidence that the Earth is experiencing a rise in temperature more rapid than any in its history is worthless because your car got wet. Thanks for the enlightening debate!


No problem! Thanks for looking at the deepest point I made, too! I was sure it had something to do with the fact that man generally sucks at predicting the full ramifications of natural phenomena even in day to day events, but what do I know?

Look, I'm all about taking care of stuff. But it's generally accepted that global warming is inevitable. I'm not satisfied with the evidence I've seen that humans are accelerating it because we're looking at a small sample of thousands of years of human history. Perhaps our recent ability to monitor stuff just makes us more aware of what's been happening all along. Nobody truly knows. But I'm not about to purposefully go backwards in progress to find out. Extending the inevitable one or two generations down the road doesn't sound all that thrilling to me. Besides, if the climate changes, living beings are supposed to adapt accordingly, right?

I just question the timing of all this stuff. A movie, a hot summer, and a bunch of nodding heads on a science commision. And then there's this little nugget: (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0606230102jun23,1,5984424.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed)



One attack came from Rep. Joe Barton (R-Texas), who last year launched an investigation of Mann and his colleagues. The chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee demanded information about their data and funding sources--an effort widely viewed as an attempt to intimidate the scientists. (Huh??? --me)


HOW DARE THEY ASK ABOUT ACTUAL DATA SOURCES AND FUNDING SOURCES WHEN IT COMES TO SCIENCE...NESS! WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TRUTH, HERE, DON'T BOTHER US WITH INCONVENIENCE!

And I've lived in a country where the Kyoto protocol was enforced, okay? They were monitoring gas levels from cow poop on dairy farms. No. I'm not kidding.

Not to mention the fact that on many GLOBAL WARMING awareness promos I see, they actually put up cooling towers at power plants as VISUAL EVIDENCE of pollution. Please. That's water vapor. It's in the sky all the time. Scared of global humidifying?

I may not be a scientist, but I know when I'm being sold a line. And a lot of actions I see from the global warming alarmist crowd tends to make me mentally relegate them to donation tables at airports. If you want to sell me on climate concern, throw out all the pot and politicians from the mix, and start talking practical. Like nuclear stuff, because that just rules.

'Course, we'll all wet our polyester pants in a few years about nuclear waste, but whatever.

[Ben]

No problem! Thanks for looking at the deepest point I made, too! I was sure it had something to do with the fact that man generally sucks at predicting the full ramifications of natural phenomena even in day to day events, but what do I know?

And my point was that science is by its very nature imprecise, and to attack this kind of thing, which has lots and lots of evidence behind it and is generally agreed upon by researchers in the field, by comparing with faulty weather forecasts is lame. Look, I'm with you on the not trusting that we have all the fact thing. We very well might not. But I'd rather go with what we think we know now than ignore it hoping reality will hit us in the face at some point in the future. Even if "delaying the inevitable by one or two generations" is the best we can do, that's time we can use to adapt better.


HOW DARE THEY ASK ABOUT ACTUAL DATA SOURCES AND FUNDING SOURCES WHEN IT COMES TO SCIENCE...NESS! WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TRUTH, HERE, DON'T BOTHER US WITH INCONVENIENCE!

Yeah, that's dumb. I hate little snarky comments in news stories like that.


And I've lived in a country where the Kyoto protocol was enforced, okay? They were monitoring gas levels from cow poop on dairy farms. No. I'm not kidding.

Makes sense to me. Cramming hundreds of cows into a small space means you get an unnatural level of waste. My uncle has a dairy farm, and he had to build a special pond to dispose of the cow waste. The thing is f-ing enormous.


Not to mention the fact that on many GLOBAL WARMING awareness promos I see, they actually put up cooling towers at power plants as VISUAL EVIDENCE of pollution. Please. That's water vapor. It's in the sky all the time. Scared of global humidifying?

Also dumb, but more evidence of how stupid TV news tech directors are.


I may not be a scientist, but I know when I'm being sold a line.

Sold a line? Have you looked at the evidence? Really looked at it? The best numbers there are say we are contributing to global warming. You can say there are problems with those numbers, but it's not a "line," it's the best we can do.


And a lot of actions I see from the global warming alarmist crowd tends to make me mentally relegate them to donation tables at airports. If you want to sell me on climate concern, throw out all the pot and politicians from the mix, and start talking practical. Like nuclear stuff, because that just rules.

Agreed. But again, no matter how nutty some people are that doesn't mean you should discard the whole side. Oil companies aren't exactly saints either.

[sun]

''One man cannot make a difference"
---Chad Lee--Post # 11

Collectively, tegether, we make a difference..I will quote from history,
A.... 5 to 10,000 men, with support from about a third of the population, over threw the British Government, and created a new nation in 1783

B. Millions of men and women working together on the home front, saving metal, rubber, growing victory gardens, helped to win WWII..Along with millions collectively, working together to fight an enemy.

C..Collectively, our ansesters settled this nation, the U.S.A.

D. If everyone drove a Prius, or small car, there would be no oil problem.(freedom of choice is everyones, so this will not happen....)

E. One person can make a difference: a few good and bad examples..Hitler, Stalin, Roosevlt, Lincoln, Anthony, King, Curie, Jefferson, Edison, Elenor Roosevelt, Rosa Parks, etc.

F. Kind acts, to others change lives, we do not know where or when, but that kindness, and help, in so many cases..can mean the difference between life and death. You may say that you cannot make a diffference, but your debate on this subject brought forth the thought of some of our best posters. You are not alone in thinking this way..I disagree with you. I think you can make a difference, "even though you are one in 7 Billion."..................................... Stuart

[Alex Toon]

I'm probably going to get a Hybrid to slow down the warming process. Heck, if sea levels keep rising, New Orleans will become the next Atlantis. :sad:

[Nobuyuki sama]

By all rights, it already should be. :shrug:

[zmanjz]

The problem I see is that too many people are concerned with conservation, or limitation of emissions... to prevent global warming.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!

The glaciers started receeding far before, the Industrial revolution and if mankind died off tomorrow, global warming would continue anyway.

The GOAL needs to be preservation through ACTIVE methods.

If you've got a lake, and you want it drained, do you erect a huge tarp to prevent it from being filled further, or do you hook up a pump and get the job done.

If the earth's atmosphere/crust is retaining too much heat, then we need to cool it off/bleed some off.

and THAT is where the science should focus.

Now, if you are concerned with "POLUTANTS" or the scarcity of oil as a resource, then go hybrid, go diesel, go biofuel, go hydrogen.

But keep in mind that the Water Vapor released by Hydrogen powercells constitutes an INCREDIBLY POTENT greenhouse device.

(There are valid reasons for emissions limitations, but global warming is least among them.)

People need to realise that the universe is a cruel place, and the natural state of matter is "DEAD".

If you want life, you need to get lucky. and if you want to preserve life, you need to use science and technology in "Unnatural" ways. and choose what lives and dies. (GO ahead, choose to "Leave it alone" guess what, you just chose to let it all die... the only question is one of "How Long")

But people have got to make a decision: use industry and material to build and maintain the future, or let it crumble away.

[William C. Maune]

The glaciers started receeding far before, the Industrial revolution, and if mankind died off tomorrow, global warming would continue anyway.

While that is all true, I don't believe that is the key issue. The problem isn't the warming itself, but the rate of the warming. The problems occur if humans are accelerating the rate of the warming, thereby creating less time to adapt than there would be naturally.

[Ickis]

People driving Hummers and stuff like that just to look cool never helped. Japan trying to sell hybrids would help if more people would buy them.
I never even try to think about global warming, it just makes me feel miserable and depressed because of the fact all living things will die from the O-zone breaking. I'll say this though back when I was 4 in 1994 I never remember spring and summer being as hot as it is right now.

[Daredevil_2003]

So you're going with the popular "do what I say, not what I do" method?Hey, it's worked for generations of parents...you know the saying...if aint broke...

As for the issue at hand, I dont care enough to start doing unhealthy amounts of research and spout off other's theories and facts like I actually understand them because I dont. I will say, however, that what zmanzj said makes the most sense to me.


The problem I see is that too many people are concerned with conservation, or limitation of emissions... to prevent global warming.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!

The glaciers started receeding far before, the Industrial revolution and if mankind died off tomorrow, global warming would continue anyway.

The GOAL needs to be preservation through ACTIVE methods.

If you've got a lake, and you want it drained, do you erect a huge tarp to prevent it from being filled further, or do you hook up a pump and get the job done.

If the earth's atmosphere/crust is retaining too much heat, then we need to cool it off/bleed some off.

and THAT is where the science should focus.

Now, if you are concerned with "POLUTANTS" or the scarcity of oil as a resource, then go hybrid, go diesel, go biofuel, go hydrogen.

But keep in mind that the Water Vapor released by Hydrogen powercells constitutes an INCREDIBLY POTENT greenhouse device.

(There are valid reasons for emissions limitations, but global warming is least among them.)

People need to realise that the universe is a cruel place, and the natural state of matter is "DEAD".

If you want life, you need to get lucky. and if you want to preserve life, you need to use science and technology in "Unnatural" ways. and choose what lives and dies. (GO ahead, choose to "Leave it alone" guess what, you just chose to let it all die... the only question is one of "How Long")

But people have got to make a decision: use industry and material to build and maintain the future, or let it crumble away. 06-28-2006 11:19 AM

Reminds me of something a wise-man once said about global warming, "The O-zone is decaying? We've got space shuttles, we've got seran wrap...FIX IT!"

[sidewinder]

Gives 'em something to do.

I'm not gonna, like, go out of the way to destroy the environment. I just know that me myself not caring will not affect the world.

Plus, clean air would spoil them. Totally turns kids into snobs.

Also, like you said, one man's actions won't stop anything. A natural disaster from, say, volcanic eruption could do more damage than mankind can do in many years. In fact, this has actually happened. Remember Pinautubo?

[James]

Also, like you said, one man's actions won't stop anything. A natural disaster from, say, volcanic eruption could do more damage than mankind can do in many years. In fact, this has actually happened. Remember Pinautubo?

What has that to do anything. "There's a man down the road who steals with a truck so I shouldn't worry about the man who steals door to door with a van".

I'm sorry, but this is about idelogy as much as practical success. The process of trying rather than accepting what goes on. This concept "well one man can't do anything" amounts to a mix of laziness and bluster.

Bottomline is attempting to be more environmental can't harm. Being nonchalantly anti any attempt to change ideology is. Ideas carry. People work in herds. Politics - in theory - is reflective of the herd; what you want reflects what they'll try to give to get your vote.

I work occasionally doing design for an environmental center which is there to showcase potential issues and solutions. People do care and do want to change. When they see ways of how to change lifestyle, they do it. One centre pushes forward the wants of the people who visit. That one centre is making a difference. Small, but it's making a difference. Even if it's small scale issues like recyling. Whether you believe in global warming, there is practical environmental damage being done. Landfills get closer to downs, recycling reduces the waste factor. The more who do recycle, the less waste generated. It has logic.

The center does calculate it's savings in carbon emissions, which is a sad statistic. Great for the building, but offset by the tonnes of fuel used at the local airport it's negliable. Nevertheless, we try. That's what being a person is about really - be you religious or not - about doing your best in what you do.

So this is about ideology and ideology is contagious. What you do may get your mate to decide to do the same. Or your girlfriend. Or your girlfriend's family. Even if my attempts to fight the changes in our environmental situation amount to nothing, at least I know I've tried. I think that has far more integrity that sitting back and making excuses for not doing anything.

[sidewinder]

[quote=James]What has that to do anything. "There's a man down the road who steals with a truck so I shouldn't worry about the man who steals door to door with a van".

I'm sorry, but this is about idelogy as much as practical success. The process of trying rather than accepting what goes on. This concept "well one man can't do anything" amounts to a mix of laziness and bluster.

Bottomline is attempting to be more environmental can't harm. Being nonchalantly anti any attempt to change ideology is. Ideas carry. People work in herds. Politics - in theory - is reflective of the herd; what you want reflects what they'll try to give to get your vote.

I work occasionally doing design for an environmental center which is there to showcase potential issues and solutions. People do care and do want to change. When they see ways of how to change lifestyle, they do it. One centre pushes forward the wants of the people who visit. That one centre is making a difference. Small, but it's making a difference. Even if it's small scale issues like recyling. Whether you believe in global warming, there is practical environmental damage being done. Landfills get closer to downs, recycling reduces the waste factor. The more who do recycle, the less waste generated. It has logic.

The center does calculate it's savings in carbon emissions, which is a sad statistic. Great for the building, but offset by the tonnes of fuel used at the local airport it's negliable. Nevertheless, we try. That's what being a person is about really - be you religious or not - about doing your best in what you do.

So this is about ideology and ideology is contagious. What you do may get your mate to decide to do the same. Or your girlfriend. Or your girlfriend's family. Even if my attempts to fight the changes in our environmental situation amount to nothing, at least I know I've tried. I think that has far more integrity that sitting back and making excuses for not doing anything.[/quote

I live in Japan, where nearly every single person rides bikes. Mass transit is also the norm. Yet the water is filthy, and there is a good deal of polution. That doesn't mean we should try harder than the extremes that Japan has tried. It will be a waste of both time and money. Being more enviormental won't help in the long run if a random volcanic explosion can do more damage than us humans can do.

But I mean no disrespect.

[William C. Maune]

Being more enviormental won't help in the long run if a random volcanic explosion can do more damage than us humans can do.

Pinautubo did have a big effect when it erupted. Due to all it spewed in the atmosphere it created a global average decrease in temperatures for a few years. However, unlike the current global warming problem, this was not a permanent change. After a few years the effects of the eruption dissapated. Thus, Pinautubo is no excuse. The actions of a large number of people can't happen without the actions of the individual.

[sun]

This thread seems to be about over, and much has been said on both sides of this question..More can be added if anyone wants. This is a most important issue, perhaps, depending on one's point of view, the most important issue there is..
..Still, I want to take this moment to say thank you to all those who participated here, and added their comments..A wide range of ideas has been presented.
.... The mods have been great to let this one go on, and clearly people have had a chance to really think about this problem, no matter where one stands..It is heartening to see that people care enough to view, and respond here..There is much more information on this, if one wants to read it, and even TV shows and movies to see. I hope this continues, but if not,...........
a sincere thank you for the discussion..........................Stuart

[sun]

First Half of 2006 Is Warmest on Record-----"After this thread died this was published..."Then California..then New York..What is next?????



By Associated Press
Published July 14, 2006, 1:19 PM CDT

WASHINGTON -- The first half of the year was the warmest on record for the United States.

The government reported Friday that the average temperature for the 48 contiguous United States from January through June was 51.8 degrees Fahrenheit, or 3.4 degrees above average for the 20th century.

That made it the warmest such period since recordkeeping began in 1895, the National Climatic Data Center reported.

No state was cooler than average and five states -- Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, and Missouri -- experienced record warmth for the period.

While much of the Northeast experienced extreme rainfall and flooding at the end of June many other areas continued below normal rain and snowfall.

As of June, 45 percent of the contiguous U.S. was in moderate-to-extreme drought, an increase of 6 percent from May.

Dry conditions spawned more than 50,000 wildfires, burning more than 3 million acres in the continental U.S., according to the National Interagency Fire Center.

Worldwide, it was the sixth warmest year-to-date since record keeping began in 1880.


10 DEAD IN NEW YORK CITY....TODAY FROM , NEW YORK TIMES.. AUG 4.....................




At least 10 people died in New York City this week as a result of the extreme heat, city officials said today. Hundreds of customers remained without power, but as temperatures fell slightly, Consolidated Edison continued repairing its damaged distribution system on the East Side of Manhattan.
The chief medical examiner’s office reported four heat-related deaths in Manhattan and six in Brooklyn. Other deaths were reported from around the region.
Six of the seven feeder cables that failed on Thursday were back in service by this morning, a Con Ed spokesman said, with the seventh expected to be repaired later in the day.
A series of fires in manholes damaged the cables and forced Con Ed officials to cut off power to some buildings on the East Side and make others switch to emergency generators.
More than a thousand customers were still without power today, Con Ed said, with about half of them in Queens and the others scattered around the other boroughs. In Con Ed’s parlance, a customer could be a large building with many apartments.
The chairman of the company, Kevin M. Burke, has acknowledged that the company needs to develop better methods of estimating the number of people without power during outages.


Temperatures today were in the upper 80’s, still warm but below the 100 degree peaks of earlier in the week. Temperatures are expected to drop into the low 70’s tonight, which should further ease the strain on electrical distribution systems.
Officials said the problems with feeder cable occurred because heavy power demand and high temperatures around the clock did not allow them to cool, leading to fires.
The first reported heat-related deaths of the week came Thursday. They included a man found unconscious on the Brooklyn waterfront, a woman who died after passing out in her Long Island home and a couple who died in their apartment in Newark.

PS.Sadly, I met someone earlier in the week, who came home from work,,,,and found his roommate dead...They think it was the heat in this area..It was over l00 on the day of this event............................................................................................... .............Stuart

[Ben]

Korea has had an inordinately hot year as well. First floods destroyed much of the year's crop and now the heat. Yesterday we ran an article (http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200608/04/200608042135090209900090409041.html) about the casualties. One guy died in his car with a body temperature of 43.9 degrees (111 F). Crazy. Granted it's nothing compared to the sheer numbers in places like LA, but the humidity makes it worse.

[sun]

This article about the deaths due to the heat kinda sums it up...
If it isn't about me,,well so what...
It is really about all of us,

Chicago Tribune. Aug 5, 06..Most heat victims died alone (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0608050241aug05,1,4870076.story?coll=chi-news-hed)

Skip the ad, if it pops up, just read the article....Sad but true....