Justice League - A Savage Time.

[Steven C]

I saw this episode last night for the 1st time since the season finale on TV.
Awesome story btw.

I remember Shayera met one of the Blackhawks in a JLU episode, so does that mean in the history books of the DCAU, the JL helped the US win World War 2?

Doesn't that confuse people in the present? People open their history books and see the JL winning the war, then on TV or in the news they see the same JL fighting monsters, etc. Is this just a huge plot hole or what?

[Anarky]

I don't believe it was ever documented that it was the JL that assisted the Allieds. They weren't around long and I doubt war journalists had the opportunity to take photos. Besides, there were plenty of war myths floating about during WWII (Savage alluded to other "supermen" and we're all familiar w/ the gremlins that were blames for aircraft sabotage)

[Bones Justice]

I'll agree that the names of the Justice League wouldn't have made it into the books. But at least some of their descriptions could have made it on record. I wouldn't be surprised if Batman had it figured out.

Also, some of the changes would have made it into the history books. Stuff like the giant wheel tanks should be in there. Possibly, even the attempted invasion of America could have made it into the books.

My question is the apparent paradox.
Why would Savage send the laptop back to himself yet again? He knows he will be defeated in World War 2 by the Justice League.

Or does he have to? Does he exist from a different timeline?

[Anwar]

The Savage who sent the laptop and plans back to himself was from a timeline where the JL didn't go back and stop him, the timeline his own actions created. The timeline was altered due to Savage's own actions, I don't think he did send the laptop back this time around, it remained in coming from an alternate timeline.

[Link1130]

we're all familiar w/ the gremlins that were blames for aircraft sabotage)


A Bugs Bunny cartoon I thought just had a funny little character suddenly makes sense...

I obviously wasn't familiar with with any gremlins in WWII...

[Bones Justice]

The Savage who sent the laptop and plans back to himself was from a timeline where the JL didn't go back and stop him, the timeline his own actions created. The timeline was altered due to Savage's own actions, I don't think he did send the laptop back this time around, it remained in coming from an alternate timeline.

But that's the paradox, isn't it? Because in Hereafter, Savage ceases to exist due to the actions of the League. Since this was the same time-travel technology (both machines were created by Savage and looked the same), it would seem that the Savage that sent the laptop back to himself also would have ceased to exist.

The only thing I can think of that makes sense (sort of) is that the Savage that was defeated in World War 2 would have to send the laptop back to himself to complete the loop. Otherwise, wouldn't he cease to exist?

Edit:

Okay, so I was discussing this after I wrote the above and I think I have the answer now (sort of). The laptop in The Savage Time came from the same kind of place that Superman's beard came from in Hereafter -- a future that no longer exists. The future events did, in fact, happen (Savage sending the laptop back in time to himself; Superman growing a beard) but were later erased by actions taken in the past.

I still don't know that it makes sense but at least it makes more sense than before.

[Lord Sidious]

The Vandal that disappeared in Savage Time was the one talking into the laptop.

Once he sent that, he was ereased from existence and became the Dictator that the League saw in the beginnig of Savage Time.

But since the JL defeated him in the past, that dictator was also erased from existence and was replaced by the Kasnian's Chief Aid in Maid of Honor.



The real question is:

How come that time machine still existed in the present where the JL got back home if Vandal was defeated in the first place thus not wasting his time in making a time machine so he could change WW2??

[Anwar]

He had the machine in the alternate present built so he could take his (erased) present day self and send the laptop back to his past self so he could continue to win WWII.

So the alternate present version of Savage (the world dictator) took the place of the version of himself who sent the laptop back in the first place.

[Trevor Balena]

He had the machine in the alternate present built so he could take his (erased) present day self and send the laptop back to his past self so he could continue to win WWII.

So the alternate present version of Savage (the world dictator) took the place of the version of himself who sent the laptop back in the first place.
Okay. Makes sense.

Just so you know, though, you just gave me an aneurysm.

Stupid paradoxes...

[Anwar]

After "Yesterday's Enterprise" all other time travel problems in other shows just are easier to understand by comparison.

[Trevor Balena]

After "Yesterday's Enterprise" all other time travel problems in other shows just are easier to understand by comparison. Personally, I think the temporal logistics of "Yesterday's Enterprise" pale in comparison to the stuff we're talking about in this thread.

And to answer one of the original poster's questions:

Dwayne McDuffie on “The Savage Time”: “Actually, ‘The Savage Time’ did alter history. In JLU continuity, Vandal Savage ran Nazi Germany for a year or two, displacing Hitler until Savage’s 'death,' whereupon Hitler retook control. Everyone on Earth DCAU knows this as history (courtesy of DwayneMcDuffie.com (http://www.dwaynemcduffie.com/)).”

So the history books do reflect the changes made to the timeline in "The Savage Time"... but, as someone else said, most of the references to the League itself probably ended up being recorded as delusions or rumours. However, who's to say that Steve Trevor didn't made a report to his superiors, and the government has known since World War II just how dangerous metahumans could be in a large-scale armed conflict...

[Bones Justice]

He had the machine in the alternate present built so he could take his (erased) present day self and send the laptop back to his past self so he could continue to win WWII.

Eh? No, I don't think so. The "original" Savage sent the laptop back. The "world dictator" Savage wouldn't have to send a laptop back. He got his laptop from an alternate Savage that never existed.

It's like Superman's beard in Hereafter. He grew it during a future that no longer exists. Likewise, the "original" Savage came up with the laptop in a future that no longer exists.

Why the "world dictator" Savage built his time machine, I have no idea. Just off the top of my head, maybe the workings of the time machine are such that it exists "outside" of time, sort of like the Justice League did (protected by Green Lantern's bubble). Maybe once the "original" Savage built the time machine, it would always exist despite any changes to the timeline unless it was physically destroyed. Just a wild theory.



So the alternate present version of Savage (the world dictator) took the place of the version of himself who sent the laptop back in the first place.

I agree with you on this part. But it makes me wonder why would "original" Savage send the laptop back in the first place? Didn't he know that it would erase him from existence if he did so? I guess not.



Okay. Makes sense.

Just so you know, though, you just gave me an aneurysm.

Stupid paradoxes...


You said it! Every time I think I have it figured out, it just raises more questions. :confused:

[Trevor Balena]

Why the "world dictator" Savage built his time machine, I have no idea. To ensure his own existence. Predestination paradox. He knew that if he didn't, he would cease to exist.


But it makes me wonder why would "original" Savage send the laptop back in the first place? Didn't he know that it would erase him from existence if he did so? Yes, but he knew he'd be replaced with a "better" version of himself, so he probably thought it was worth it. He did the same thing at the end of "Herafter", when you think about it.

[Bones Justice]

To ensure his own existence. Predestination paradox. He knew that if he didn't, he would cease to exist.

I used to think this but now I'm not sure. He wouldn't need to send it to himself since he originally got it from another timeline. He would never be able to complete the loop by sending back a laptop -- he'd just be creating yet another version of history.

And it doesn't explain why he would build another time machine after he was defeated by the Justice League in World War 2. I mean, he knows that he will be defeated, so why bother? :confused:

[Anwar]

The machine in the present existed because Vandal built it to send the laptop back and start this mess, then after he won the war the world dictator Savage built another time machien in the same place and to the exact specifications becuase he knew that the version of himself that sent the laptop back to begin with no longer existed and he had to take his place.

The machine still existed in the restored present day because now we were back to the original timeline Savage who sent the first laptop came from, and he was still trying to maintain history even though he knew what was going to happen. Even if he knew it was useless, he had to maintain the timeline so that he wouldn't change history to the point where he thought it WASN'T useless and tried to chnage his own past again.

...Damn this gives me headaches...

[HaagenDas]

Actually, what really happened was Superman went around the Earth really fast until it turned back time to the time period of Chamelot in England where Mordru fought Merlin and Shining Knight, who saw the computer and tried to destroy it but encountered a blue screen error which allowed Mr. Freeze's head to come out of the laptop and freeze him in time.

[Bones Justice]

The machine in the present existed because Vandal built it to send the laptop back and start this mess, then after he won the war the world dictator Savage built another time machien in the same place and to the exact specifications becuase he knew that the version of himself that sent the laptop back to begin with no longer existed and he had to take his place.

Okay, this sort of makes sense. You're saying "world dictator" Savage had to send the laptop back to continue his existence. Then again, it's based upon knowledge that came to him from a time that does not exist. So if he can retain the knowledge, why can't he also retain the laptop? Superman retained his beard in Hereafter, afterall. In general, I like your idea but I'm still not completely convinced that it works.



The machine still existed in the restored present day because now we were back to the original timeline Savage who sent the first laptop came from


I disagree with this. The League did change the timeline again but did not restore it to the original. The present day they now live in had a history of World War 2 that included Vandal Savage and giant-wheel tanks.

The only way they could have come close to restoring the original timeline would have been to travel back in time to a point where they could prevent Savage from ever getting the laptop during World War 2. Technically, even that would be a different timeline but it would be so close to the original that nobody except the League and Savage would know about it.



and he was still trying to maintain history even though he knew what was going to happen. Even if he knew it was useless, he had to maintain the timeline so that he wouldn't change history to the point where he thought it WASN'T useless and tried to chnage his own past again.

I don't think this fits, either. We've already seen that Savage can retain memories from a timeline that no longer exists (as well as Superman in Hereafter or Batman and Green Lantern in Time Warped).

The only thing that I can figure is that Vandal Savage built the time machine again to do something else this time (no pun intended). We just didn't get to see the results. Or perhaps, the League returned from World War 2 and stopped whatever Savage's next time scheme was going to be.



...Damn this gives me headaches...

Every time I think I have it figured out, it just raises more questions.