If any CN execs (or Karl Olson) are reading this, please watch the following video: [Archive]

Andrew T. Hingson

05-31-2006, 04:25 PM

Until Cats and Dogs airs but at least that's a hybrid.

The problem of course is they are accepting LA pilots. So unless some shows they why that's a terrible idea right now CN will most likely be showing a lot LA in the future.

And LFV a lot of folks here did make a stink about TD airing Power Rangers. I know I did. But the one thing that changes that situation is Jetix is practically it's own network... TD proper airs less live action than CN does (though they are starting to air live action movies I think). Jetix airs more live action than it should IMO but Power Rangers has to air somewhere I guess... There's purpose in that LA content though. PR is a notable franchise. CN airing LA is just whatever they can borrow from other Turner networks for now... and that makes it all the more bothersome and shows exactly how desperate they are.

One Radical Dude

05-31-2006, 04:29 PM

TD (which will likely be all Jetix in the future) does not deserve a pass, either, and the same can be said for Sci-Fi airing wrestling matches. It's good that CN isn't saturated with live-action right now, but how long will that last?

William C. Maune

05-31-2006, 04:33 PM

But the one thing that changes that situation is Jetix is practically it's own network...

Adult Swim is also practically its own network, yet people complain about the prospects of it airing live action.

It's good that CN isn't saturated with live-action right now, but how long will that last?

The frequency of live action on Cartoon Network has actually decreased since last November. Spider-man was the first thing shown in quite a few weeks. Where it goes from here, we'll just have to see. At this point we don't know how many (if any) of the pilots will pan out, or whether they'll end up actually being live-action or hybrid.

Carlos

05-31-2006, 04:33 PM

I'm hoping for a remix Karl. And this being available on iTunes.

Xerroo

05-31-2006, 04:35 PM

I fail to see what the huge deal is with CN showing Live Action movies. So far it's the only thing there. I think people are taking this way out of proportion.

Andrew T. Hingson

05-31-2006, 04:42 PM

Adult Swim is also practically its own network, yet people complain about the prospects of it airing live action.

The frequency of live action on Cartoon Network has actually decreased since last November. Spider-man was the first thing shown in quite a few weeks. Where it goes from here, we'll just have to see. At this point we don't know how many (if any) of the pilots will pan out, or whether they'll end up actually being live-action or hybrid.

Just gotta play devil advocate don't you?

Well like I said I complained about any animation venue airing live-action but I didn't hate the idea of AS showing some good LA programing some day like Arrested Development. It was just a dumb idea to show SBtB even if college students dig it... Because it's a kid's show (don't even get me started on their anime slate).

Sure we don't know... but the fact that they are evening trying is just wrong. Enough of the "it could be worse" BS. It could be better, a lot better and they shouldn't have shown anything live-action to begin with. Don't defend that with talks of "well what if it doesn't work" because what if it does work? Then we'll all be sorry. Nip at the bud. That's what should be done. My props to HG for doing something constructive about it.

Andrew T. Hingson

05-31-2006, 04:44 PM

I fail to see what the huge deal is with CN showing Live Action movies. So far it's the only thing there. I think people are taking this way out of proportion.

That CN tosses good show like Megas, says cartoons aren't enough and then proceeds to make a development team for hybrid and live action programing? No I'd say people are being too easy on CN so far.

Conan-san

05-31-2006, 04:51 PM

It's only a matter of time before CN loses it's way.

It's like 4kids, nothing can stop them, they can not be stoped, they will succed.
Eureka Seven is proof the masses don't want change, they want the same. Safey safe same.

And how I lothe it.

William C. Maune

05-31-2006, 05:46 PM

Just gotta play devil advocate don't you?

Well like I said I complained about any animation venue airing live-action but I didn't hate the idea of AS showing some good LA programing some day like Arrested Development. It was just a dumb idea to show SBtB even if college students dig it... Because it's a kid's show (don't even get me started on their anime slate).

Sure we don't know... but the fact that they are evening trying is just wrong. Enough of the "it could be worse" BS. It could be better, a lot better and they shouldn't have shown anything live-action to begin with. Don't defend that with talks of "well what if it doesn't work" because what if it does work? Then we'll all be sorry. Nip at the bud. That's what should be done. My props to HG for doing something constructive about it.

It has nothing to do with playing "devil's advocate" and I never said anything in this thread about how "it could be worse." I'm not defending anything, just stating the situation. The fact is, we don't know how things are going to pan out. We don't know if it will go away and we certainly don't know that "CN will most likely be showing a lot LA in the future."

As for the video, it is pretty well made, but I'm not sure what it constructively accomplishes. People need to remember that Adult Swim does not equal Cartoon Network. They are pretty much separately run. Furthermore, the video isn't very focused. It also complains about things like 12 oz. Mouse not being cancelled. If people want to get their views to Cartoon Network they should write letters to the network.

li_mangaman

05-31-2006, 06:04 PM

It has nothing to do with playing "devil's advocate" and I never said anything in this thread about how "it could be worse." I'm not defending anything, just stating the situation. The fact is, we don't know how things are going to pan out. We don't know if it will go away and we certainly don't know that "CN will most likely be showing a lot LA in the future."

As for the video, it is pretty well made, but I'm not sure what it constructively accomplishes. People need to remember that Adult Swim does not equal Cartoon Network. They are pretty much separately run. Furthermore, the video isn't very focused. It also complains about things like 12 oz. Mouse not being cancelled. If people want to get their views to Cartoon Network they should write letters to the network.

First of all, 12 OZ. Mouse is not a cartoon. It's worse than TGTTM.

Secondly, the video makes a valid point. Cartoon Network is the new MTV. How can it be saved?

Rename it Pogo

Andrew T. Hingson

05-31-2006, 06:08 PM

I forgot to comment on the video. If you made it HG, props to you and an excellent use of Karl's nerdcore. I posted a link to it on GameFaqs. I'll also post it on AS official MB.

You should post it on AI as well, I'm not sure if you did.

It does mention problems with Adult Swim but it also focuses on a few live action things CN has been showing and that the last two really good things (show wise) were Naruto and Sunday Pants... and also that we watch still just not nearly as much.

William C. Maune

05-31-2006, 06:13 PM

First of all, 12 OZ. Mouse is not a cartoon. It's worse than TGTTM.

This is one of my issues. The whole live-action issue gets muddied when people start claiming things like "12 OZ. Mouse is not a cartoon." Not everyone may like it, but it definitely is a cartoon.

Secondly, the video makes a valid point. Cartoon Network is the new MTV. How can it be saved?

For Cartoon Network to be the new MTV it would have to show zero cartoons. Points and other criticisms are better made when they are not exaggerated.

li_mangaman

05-31-2006, 06:15 PM

This is one of my issues. The whole live-action issue gets muddied when people start claiming things like "12 OZ. Mouse is not a cartoon." Not everyone may like it, but it definitely is a cartoon.

For Cartoon Network to be the new MTV it would have to show zero cartoons.

MTV shows music videos that aren't desirable to music fans.
That seems to fit the whole 12 OZ. Mouse & TGTTM thing more.

jarjar23

05-31-2006, 06:19 PM

Didn't it say in an upfront or something that CN WAS planning live-action specials, movies, and shows?

William C. Maune

05-31-2006, 06:23 PM

MTV shows music videos that aren't desirable to music fans.
That seems to fit the whole 12 OZ. Mouse & TGTTM thing more.

Except that (while it may not necessarily be the majority) a significant number of people like both of those shows. My main point though is that complaining about both live-action and certain animated shows at the same time muddies the live-action issue. (As for MTV, I didn't realize it still showed music videos.

Didn't it say in an upfront or something that CN WAS planning live-action specials, movies, and shows?

Here are the news stories from the Upfront:

http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=9248

and

http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=9251

Andrew T. Hingson

05-31-2006, 06:25 PM

Yeah they do show music videos. Just not nearly as much as they use to.

livingfruitvirus

05-31-2006, 06:54 PM

First of all, 12 OZ. Mouse is not a cartoon. It's worse than TGTTM.

Why is 12 Oz Mouse not a cartoon?

Zinal

05-31-2006, 08:23 PM

That a cool video but I don't think CN would care.

Ickis

05-31-2006, 11:44 PM

CN may see your point someday. I hope that CN goes back to it's roots and airs more cartoon pilots like in "What a cartoon show!" and shows more cartoons as they really need to balance out the anime and cartoons as they as anime seems to be taking over and I'm sure theres plenty of people that would like to watch some cartoons aswell as anime, not just anime. I know most people mainly in the US like modern anime but I must say I'm not a big fan though I do like some old animes. What CN should do is make another network and call it "Anime Network" as they'd have time on the CN network for cartoons and they'd be able to fit in more anime, sounds like a nice compromise right? :D

William C. Maune

06-01-2006, 12:19 AM

Outside of Toonami on Saturday nights, Cartoon Network only shows 2 hours of anime a day (Transformers Cybertron, Pokemon, Zatch Bell, and One Piece). Anime only makes up a minority of the programming.

Chad Bonin

06-01-2006, 12:37 AM

I read this...

as I work on a "Smallville On Toonami" promo...

But, hey, y'all can favorite the promos I made for cartoons on You Tube...

Duke

06-01-2006, 12:43 AM

Why is 12 Oz Mouse not a cartoon?
Apparently, because it sucks. Any cartoon that sucks isn't a cartoon, don'tcha know?

Karl Olson

06-01-2006, 03:07 AM

This is what I get for writing a song in a fit of bitterness. Somehow, seeing it sync'd to video makes me really just how sickeningly nerdy and pedantic such a complaint it is, or atleast in the means in which I've vocalized it there. Really, I almost want to pull it from my album now.

I mean, I stick by the basic concept - after all, Mtv as we know it wasn't built in a day, and obviously even if CN follows threw on everything that an "Executive in Charge of Live Action Production" or whatever can bring, it'll take a fairly considerable piece time before it really begins to be completely discpicable, and much like how Mtv still has a few music video shows like TRL, animation will never fully leave the network - it's always be part of the flavor the network. Format breaking in general just sucks IMHO though.

But yeah, the means in which I've vocalized the complaint is probably the element that's regrettable - it sounds kind of stupid and shallow because a 3 minute Jump Up/Pop/Nerdcore track is a mediocre means of eloquently delineating a point or message on any subject. It's might catchy or memorable, but it lacks balance and critical thought, and it's really not a particularly useful means of expression in some ways. It's lacks the time to be particularly satirical or witty, atleast in my hands.

I mean, it's cool that people like it I guess (though the idea that anyone would make an AMV for something that's already so referential is a little strange in it's own right if you think about it - I mean, are the visuals already patently implied by the lyrics.) I made that track to vent - it was something I needed to get off my chest, and this struck me as more interesting than just writing an editorial. However, looking at it in this context, I can be a lot more exacting in an editorial, or at the very least I'm much better at expressing the concept's depth and ramifications in prose than in poetry.

I mean, atleast in an editorial I could say - you know, regardless of what hands they may or may not have in stuff like this, The Toonami and Adult Swim crew are pretty cool people and, I'd bet Samples and Higgins are nice guys too - I doubt they are at all malicious or mean folks. Maybe mis-informed or ill-advised when it comes to the best business plan for CN, but I'm sure at the end of the day they are nice people, and really I'm not sure whether a "protest song" was of any use.

I mean, I've talked to some of the people who worked on Atomic Betty (which I slam a little in the song) on this very forum, and you know what, even if I didn't like their show, I liked them - they were great folks. HHPAY might be a mediocre show, but I like Puffy Ami Yumi as a band (only song I can actually play decently on Guitar Freaks,) and Renegade is doing some great work considering what they have to work with conceptually - visually, it's a great example of how to make limit flash animation a strength, not a weakness. Really, I could go on about how I like the people who make shows I don't at points (even the oft berated KND atleast keeps the staff who made under-appreciated Sheep in the Big City fed, and that Animatrix parody episode was solid gold, and the "atleast it keeps talented people" fed reasoning could go for everything CN airing - even the Animation Collective stuff because I know there are animators there that given the chance could do fantastic work) but that's hard to put in a song, or even a skit after a song, and yet it's necessary context if I don't want to seem like a total fanboy idiot.

I mean, I did the commentary of hatred on the Sealab 2021 DVD that is quantifiably more fanboyish and picky, but that was at the creators behest, it was clearly tongue-in-cheek and I managed to be atleast a little polite about things over the end credits of the episode - I could and did contextualize it. Plus, I know the creators of Sealab 2021 are great people, not only because they enough of a sense of humor about things to let me be vitriolic over an episode of their show, but because in general they were nice people to work with - very polite, very cool and very professional.

Honestly, I think I might pull this from my cd - I'd need a rant in 4pt type in my liner notes to contextualize it properly if I did include it. At the very least, I'm glad I didn't put this on the nerdcore compilation. It'd have been regrettable I think.

Conan-san

06-01-2006, 03:28 AM

Apparently, because it sucks. Any cartoon that sucks isn't a cartoon, don'tcha know? Eh? And here I thought it has so limited animation that it's been retitled as a picture slide show with ocasional adult themes.

Carlos

06-01-2006, 01:44 PM

Honestly, I think I might pull this from my cd - I'd need a rant in 4pt type in my liner notes to contextualize it properly if I did include it. At the very least, I'm glad I didn't put this on the nerdcore compilation. It'd have been regrettable I think.

So, I'm guessing this isn't your first single?

Karl Olson

06-01-2006, 02:36 PM

So, I'm guessing this isn't your first single?

Actually, IIRC the first track I put online in relation to my new CD was "So Long Kids," followed by "Eighty Three" and "Coin Figure." And "So Long Kids" is pretty mean too, no doubt about that. OTOH, 4kids has earned it a bit more, and in general, I think there are some wittier elements to that track.

Now that I've a little more time to think it over, I'm not going to pull it because I make the apologies I need to in the song in my lyric. It's just that this video's recontextualizing emphasized the more brutal aspects of it. The last lyric of the last verse is "Please I know that you can't really be / that immensely inept" which I atleast intend to mean "Please guys, you're good, smart people, you can do better - you have the power to achieve that" and I'm not sure whether that aspect reads at all in the video here.

HG Revolution

06-01-2006, 02:46 PM

li_mangaman

06-01-2006, 03:15 PM

Sorry about not being on earlier to respond.

Eh? And here I thought it has so limited animation that it's been retitled as a picture slide show with ocasional adult themes.

My point exactly. The only thing on that show that semms to be 'animated' or 'moving' is the live action stock footage, which is sometimes used in live action as well. If you don't see things move then it's not animated. Animation does basically mean the process of making things appear to move. In 12 OZ. Mouse I see things change. Big difference. Same goes for TGTTM. I'm still stuck on Wulin Warriors though, considering it's between live-action and stop motion, IMO.

William C. Maune

06-01-2006, 03:19 PM

Andrew T. Hingson

06-01-2006, 06:10 PM

The thing that's funniest about my video isn't the video itself, but the fact that my dad is showing it to his coworkers, and one of those coworkers is the brother of Bob Higgins.

I wonder what he'll think of it, and I'm sorry if I made you look like an ******* by making that video, Karl.

Well you didn't mention him in the credits so only people who have listened to Karl's other tracks will know it's him and even then they'd have to find the proof to back it up.

Fan of Sponge

06-01-2006, 09:10 PM

Wow...that was funny. I guess the person doesn't like 12 Oz. Mouse at all. I thought it was going to be about cartoons taking over CN, but the video itself was just a music video and how the it is comparing CN wanting to be like MTV and Nick and how MTV went down the same road CN might be following too. I mean there's line and toleration were I can take like action, but what CN is doing is too much. I'm glad there are people siding with us who aren't complaining it on the internet like Bill Amend for example.

creativerealms

06-01-2006, 09:28 PM

Space Cadet

06-01-2006, 09:56 PM

Actually, IIRC the first track I put online in relation to my new CD was "So Long Kids," followed by "Eighty Three" and "Coin Figure." And "So Long Kids" is pretty mean too, no doubt about that. OTOH, 4kids has earned it a bit more, and in general, I think there are some wittier elements to that track.

Now that I've a little more time to think it over, I'm not going to pull it because I make the apologies I need to in the song in my lyric. It's just that this video's recontextualizing emphasized the more brutal aspects of it. The last lyric of the last verse is "Please I know that you can't really be / that immensely inept" which I atleast intend to mean "Please guys, you're good, smart people, you can do better - you have the power to achieve that" and I'm not sure whether that aspect reads at all in the video here.

Heh, you should do a remix to this song.:)

Master Moron

06-01-2006, 10:11 PM

All animated shows are essentially "picture slide shows" some just move faster than others. While both are very limited animation, neither are only still frames. Both are drawn and colored, and while it is limited, there is movement in every scene. Both are animation, and they certainly are not live-action. Just because the animation is crappy doesn't mean that it isn't animation.

If we're defining animation as a process of using still pictures to create artificial movement then I would say that 12 Ounce Mouse is animated, but Tom Goes to the Mayor is not. There are many shots in Tom Goes to the Mayor that have absolutely no movement whatsoever.

li_mangaman

06-01-2006, 10:40 PM

If there is a drawn clock that goes from 12 o' clock to 3 o' clock to 6 o' clock to 9 o' clock and then finally back to 12 o' clock at 15 second intervals, is that animation?

To me, that's 12 OZ. Mouse.

William C. Maune

06-01-2006, 11:06 PM

If we're defining animation as a process of using still pictures to create artificial movement then I would say that 12 Ounce Mouse is animated, but Tom Goes to the Mayor is not. There are many shots in Tom Goes to the Mayor that have absolutely no movement whatsoever.

Truthfully, I haven't seen much of Tom Goes to the Mayor since the last bunch of premieres ended, but I seem to remember most every scene having some sort of movement.

If there is a drawn clock that goes from 12 o' clock to 3 o' clock to 6 o' clock to 9 o' clock and then finally back to 12 o' clock at 15 second intervals, is that animation?

To me, that's 12 OZ. Mouse.

Yep, its still is animation, just very limited animation. Even in the scenes with the clock though I seem to also remember Mouse and Shark moving a little bit.

Finally, as limited as both of those shows may be, neither are live-action.

Zach

06-01-2006, 11:50 PM

I really enjoyed the video, because it's very true. This is what Cartoon Network has become. I remember back in the Golden and Silver ages how grand things were. CN dominated my life for a very long time, and I don't watch it hardly at all now. It's sad when one of their biggest fans is disgusted to the point where he won't watch at all.

Vagrant

06-02-2006, 10:22 PM

When Sci-Fi aired Law and Order Special Victams unit I cried. Finally it came to me that themes channels are a thing of the past Sci-fi lasted the longest but even they have seemed to abandon just their theme (Though that was a one time thing so far)

Still themed cable channels are a thing of the Past. MTV was the first to go and now all others have fallen or are falling. Some just took longer then others.
I hope you're wrong, in that this fad will burn out once a converged cable market is saturated with the same content. It's not very likely that CN, or any other cable network can stay profitable sharing the same bland syndicated and ‘reality’ shows with a dozen competitors. This ‘me too’ business model can’t possibly compete with the Internet, Video on Demand, on-line rentals and download shows. There’s no way this model is sustainable.

Emperor Fred

06-03-2006, 09:42 PM

This ‘me too’ business model can’t possibly compete with the Internet, Video on Demand, on-line rentals and download shows. There’s no way this model is sustainable.I don't know about that. I've been thinking about this recently, and have come to the realization that TV may be going the way of radio, thanks to the internet and etc.

Think about it. Way back when, radio used to have original programming - comedy, drama, kids' shows... Then TV came along. Before we knew it, radio became all about popular music, talk and sports.

The same thing is happening to television. Only replace "popular music" with "theatrical movies." All radio stations, to some degree or another, follow the same format, and all run the same music - that is to say, no "exclusive" programming. Movies have the same non-exclusive interchangability on TV. And people still watch them.

Now why we'd want to pay our cable bills for 150 more channels that are exactly the same that we can't get in our cars or get weather and traffic on every 15 minutes is beyond me.;)

Xerroo

06-03-2006, 10:15 PM

I still don't see things as that bad of a deal. I mean it's not like they are going to replace everything with "Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Boy Meets World, and *Shudder* Full House".

Nin-Nin69

06-03-2006, 10:47 PM

Great video. It sums up how I feel about CN, but you forgot about them pushing aside CC's besides PPG which made the network it is to day for new shows that are cheap clones of other shows on Disney Chanel and Nick. That and the hosts of CNF showing the start of this whole experiment. Oh and Tickle U's original goal going against everything CN stood for.

This is one of my issues. The whole live-action issue gets muddied when people start claiming things like "12 OZ. Mouse is not a cartoon." Not everyone may like it, but it definitely is a cartoon.
I've gone over this before about 12oz Mouse a long time ago and what makes a cartoon a cartoon. And I'm thinking in terms of a modern cartoon. So yeah I too agree this isn't a real cartoon. A picture show doesn't cut it in today's world unless that picture show can express human emotion. Something I see that 12 oz Mouse fails to do on a massive level. Very few people like anything about the show. Yet the only thing that fans or anyone for that matter can go back to is there is a deep plot. Well what if people don't like the plot?

I sure don't and if the character's can't present themselves in a manner where I care about them, then it's not a real plot. In fact if the development is awful and you can't get into the characters mixed with the plot, then it's not a real show. You can't make something where the auidence does not have emotion for anything or anyone in an entire show. That is neither animation or even live action. It's garbage pure and simple. These are the core of any piece of animation. So no matter how one sided ATHF may be, atleast you can laugh at Carl and Meatwad doing some prank or feel sorry for Frylock when Shake destroys his newest invention. Their overall characters have more of a personality and can be related to a larger auidence than 12 oz Mouse.

Another thing people go back to with this show (which is stupid) is the intro. Sure you can make a cool intro about burning stuff, but is that intro a character? Does that intro fall back to the story and make the show progress to something we all love? Heck no. So it's still bad as a whole.

To me TGTTM has more grounded into animation than 12 oz Mouse. I'm not too fond ot TGTTM either, but it's not bad enough where you don't care about the characters or what's going on.

li_mangaman

06-04-2006, 12:19 AM

[quote=Nin-Nin69]See Above[quote]

You made some valid points, but IMO it seems when 12OZ. Mouse was made there was a script and a voice recording and then pictures were put together to fill the show. It's kind of like photo puppetry, but worse.

A show doesn't need characters. It doesn't need a plot. It just needs things to happen. Talk Shows, Game Shows, etc.

Animated shows need to be made with the intent of making an animated show. IMO that's not how 12 OZ. Mouse was made. It was made with the intent of making a cheap show. And that's why it isn't an animated show.

William C. Maune

06-04-2006, 01:13 AM

Great video. It sums up how I feel about CN, but you forgot about them pushing aside CC's besides PPG which made the network it is to day for new shows that are cheap clones of other shows on Disney Chanel and Nick. That and the hosts of CNF showing the start of this whole experiment. Oh and Tickle U's original goal going against everything CN stood for.

I've gone over this before about 12oz Mouse a long time ago and what makes a cartoon a cartoon. And I'm thinking in terms of a modern cartoon. So yeah I too agree this isn't a real cartoon. A picture show doesn't cut it in today's world unless that picture show can express human emotion. Something I see that 12 oz Mouse fails to do on a massive level. Very few people like anything about the show. Yet the only thing that fans or anyone for that matter can go back to is there is a deep plot. Well what if people don't like the plot?

I sure don't and if the character's can't present themselves in a manner where I care about them, then it's not a real plot. In fact if the development is awful and you can't get into the characters mixed with the plot, then it's not a real show. You can't make something where the auidence does not have emotion for anything or anyone in an entire show. That is neither animation or even live action. It's garbage pure and simple. These are the core of any piece of animation. So no matter how one sided ATHF may be, atleast you can laugh at Carl and Meatwad doing some prank or feel sorry for Frylock when Shake destroys his newest invention. Their overall characters have more of a personality and can be related to a larger auidence than 12 oz Mouse.

Another thing people go back to with this show (which is stupid) is the intro. Sure you can make a cool intro about burning stuff, but is that intro a character? Does that intro fall back to the story and make the show progress to something we all love? Heck no. So it's still bad as a whole.

The facts are, some folks like 12 oz. Mouse (for various reasons) and some don't. People may not consider it "real" animation, but there is still a clear difference between 12 oz. Mouse airing on Cartoon Network and a live-action show/movie airing on Cartoon Network. Dragging things like 12 oz. Mouse into the debate muddies an issue which previously had a pretty clear line.

Nin-Nin69

06-04-2006, 02:23 AM

William C. Maune

06-04-2006, 01:19 PM

I understand that Live Action is the just of the argument. Yet it goes along with people finding the network loosing it's real edge. 12 oz Mouse is just one of many shows from both CN and AS that aren't taking any risks in terms of inovative animation or trying to outbest a network they're already doing better than.

So what would you all rather have? What is more important to you all?

1) More "edge," even if that means there is "live action" on "Cartoon" Network.

or

2) No "live-action" on "Cartoon" Network, even if CN doesn't necessarily have the "edge" you all want.

They are two separate wants. Sure, you can argue for both at the same time, but when you start throwing wants together it looks more like a list of complaints than a focused goal. Each new issue muddies the other issues.

Furthermore, "live-action" on "Cartoon" Network is a very clear distinction that most of you seem to agree upon. It has a pretty clear bright line. By comparison, the "edge" argument is a lot more nebulous. It may be pretty clear what live-action is, but everyone has their own definition of "edge," what qualifies, and what doesn't. It's not nearly as unified and instead of presenting a clear argument, folks just end up arguing over what it all means.

Finally, on a separate note, 12 oz. Mouse is Adult Swim, not Cartoon Network. These days they are pretty much separate with different people running each side.

Nin-Nin69

06-04-2006, 04:05 PM

Why do we have to sacrifice edge with live action? CN already had the edge! That is why we're screaming over CN going downhill. Live action may be part of it, but they have no more edge. AS shows some of the edge every now and then, but you'll say "look there it is!" and then it's gone.

Long before CNF was born, there was none of this campy crappy cloned Disney lineup that now has infested CN today. You know what I mean. Shows with big budgets that can't do anything to offend other people. Using back to school methods of writting while looking down on their auidence as if they were stupid instead of the cast of characters. You can animate all of the swords, lazer cannons, and kick to the stomach all you want. It's still garbage without a great set of characters, drama, and emotion.

Not only that but they've tried to get their own Spongebob not once, but twice and both are the same fricken species. One of them started off great, but the stories went really down hill. The other one was just dumb from the start, but kids love 1,000 butt jokes right?

Yet their doing this all for the ratings of their target auidence? Well remember those other fans who bring in even higher ratings that are usually just one to three years older than those people? They liked SJ, Megas, Justice League, Teen Titans, and anime titles you're not very fond of.

Also I still can't understand why just because Yu Yu Hakusho wasn't making the ratings mark for the last arc means it's a failure. Could've have been *gasp* Gundam Seed which scared them away? Maybe kids loved Dark Tournament more. Heck they replayed that one all of the time. Kids got a bigger dose of than then the next one. So I bet a majority of those kids just were busy that one day and forgot to watch it, but then never got another oppertunity to catch it again. So we should just punish this show all together as did Cyborg 009. Hey that was Sony's fault not the fans for bad DVD sales. They screwed up the show and left this in limbo all together. Also I seriously doubt kids love Bo Bo Bo when I've never met a person in real life that likes it besides myself. So it must be doing good with some audience.

Oh and lets copy the Nick Jr lineup. Why? You had Big Bag Small World! Big Bag and Small World got a fair share of advertizments. Both shows even had better animation to back themselves up (well Small World did). So what happned when kids watched them? They eventually saw how boring they were and CN canned them. My guess was because when you bounce between John Dilworth's Ace and Avery on Big Bag to Courage the Cowardly Dog there is a big difference in terms of writing and quality. So now after those failed they think an entire line up blended with CGI can save those children. Children who are better off learning this stuff from their parents in playtime. Oh wait Tickle U said playtime involves no imagination. :shrug:

CN once stood as a beacon of hope not only for classic cartoons, but future cartoonst and cartoons from around the world. That's why I loved the old school CN more than the current CN.

Ykwia

06-05-2006, 04:42 PM

Oh and lets copy the Nick Jr lineup. Why? You had Big Bag Small World! Big Bag and Small World got a fair share of advertizments. Both shows even had better animation to back themselves up (well Small World did). So what happned when kids watched them? They eventually saw how boring they were and CN canned them. My guess was because when you bounce between John Dilworth's Ace and Avery on Big Bag to Courage the Cowardly Dog there is a big difference in terms of writing and quality. So now after those failed they think an entire line up blended with CGI can save those children. Children who are better off learning this stuff from their parents in playtime. Oh wait Tickle U said playtime involves no imagination. :shrug:

Where's your god now?, Tickle U is gone, Washed Away, The only kids shows remaining are the ones left over from Tickle U.

Nin-Nin69

06-06-2006, 02:04 AM

Really? That's great.

Well this tells you how long it's been since I've sat down to watch CN. Yet that scheduel of 2 hour blocks for each CC in the afternoon isn't a great idea either. Whatever happened to variety?

weirdojace

06-06-2006, 11:01 AM

How can I obtain a copy of that song?

Good video and all that... I hope CN someday realizes how stupid they're being now.

Ickis

06-06-2006, 07:21 PM

How can I obtain a copy of that song?

Good video and all that... I hope CN someday realizes how stupid they're being now. Them, Nickelodean, and G4 all owe the whole US aswell as the UK and other countries a big apology.

Karl Olson

06-07-2006, 03:31 AM

How can I obtain a copy of that song.

In before Cease and Desist letter (and instant news attention and street cred):

http://www.karlrolson.com/nerd2.php

song name is Buckle Up.

One Radical Dude

06-07-2006, 03:41 AM

In before Cease and Desist letter (and instant news attention and street cred):

http://www.karlrolson.com/nerd2.php

song name is Buckle Up.

Think we could get a third verse? :p j/k

Peter Paltridge

06-07-2006, 04:03 AM

That's Karl's voice?

Karl Olson

06-07-2006, 03:27 PM

That's Karl's voice?

Well, my rap voice. My angryish rap voice. Listen to the podcast (http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=10925) to hear regular Karl.

And actually, a third verse would allow me to contextualize it and I intend to fix some small flubs in the vocal delivery anyway, so I might write another verse or atleast a bridge for that purpose. Of course, I have some collaborations in motion that would probably bump this track from the disc anyway, so it might not matter either way. I'd rather boot it from the disc if that means I get to include another mc or producer or both as part of this cd. Besides, the lyrically the collaborations are a lot more fun and enjoyable.

Callia

06-07-2006, 10:12 PM

I must agree entirely with that video. It's too bad they cut DH or else I would've given you some clips to use for that MV

j32885

06-08-2006, 12:34 AM

Interesting vid, a little to fast though, but it gets right down to the main point:

Cartoon Network Identity Crisis

I like how it ended with the old Toonami vid from the late Moltar Era (1997-1999), which uses clips from the 1940s Superman & Robotech. The title of that video asks the audience this question:

"Is Toonami A Failed Experiment?"

Where as the case of this video made by Galvin asks a sightly similar question:

"Is Cartoon Network A Failure?"

Since 1997, I've seen Cartoon Network become a network which specalized in unique and traditional cartoons, to now a TV network which is trying to complete in ratings with the likes of Disney and Nick to a certain degree. Cartoon Network will always be my favorite channel for animation, in the best of times and in the worst of times.

li_mangaman

06-08-2006, 03:22 PM

Recently my local cable provider rearranged certain stations in the following order:

ABC Family
Disney Channel
Cartoon Network
Nickelodeon

Even odder, though, is that they list Cartoon Network as a 'Lifestyle' channel, whereas the others you see there are listed as 'Children & Family' channel.

Is Cartoon Network a childrens network, or is it a cartoon network?

Wanted

06-08-2006, 04:15 PM

As of now, Cartoon Network is more of a lifestyle network than a children's/family network. It's pairing with Adult Swim doesn't make it the best choice for cable operators to place on their family packs.

William C. Maune

06-08-2006, 09:09 PM

Is Cartoon Network a childrens network, or is it a cartoon network?

In a sense, it's both. It's a "children's" network because that is that ad time that advertisers are willing to buy and thus keep the network in business. It's a "cartoon" network in that it uses cartoons to target children. There is no network that isn't a "demographic" network and a "theme" network (except for those networks that have lost their theme altogether. Both ESPN and Sci-Fi are "men's" networks, yet one uses Sports and the other (generally) uses Sci-Fi to target that demographic.

Space Cadet

06-08-2006, 09:18 PM

In a sense, it's both. It's a "children's" network because that is that ad time that advertisers are willing to buy and thus keep the network in business. It's a "cartoon" network in that it uses cartoons to target children. There is no network that isn't a "demographic" network and a "theme" network (except for those networks that have lost their theme altogether. Both ESPN and Sci-Fi are "men's" networks, yet one uses Sports and the other (generally) uses Sci-Fi to target that demographic.

Wouldn't it be better to call CN an "all-ages" network, since it has shows in the morning for little kids, shows in the afternoon and prime-time that target kids and pre-teens, and shows late at night that target adults?

Chris Wood

06-08-2006, 09:33 PM

So, uh, when does the album come out?

William C. Maune

06-08-2006, 09:57 PM

Wouldn't it be better to call CN an "all-ages" network, since it has shows in the morning for little kids, shows in the afternoon and prime-time that target kids and pre-teens, and shows late at night that target adults?

In that case Nick would be an "all-ages" network also (due to Nick at Nite). However, I'd still call Cartoon Network a children's channel since Adult Swim is considered, and run as, a separate network these days. As for the morning shows for little kids, pretty much every kids network has those. In fact, pretty much the standard formula for a children's network is what you describe above (ouside of the separate adult network at night).

li_mangaman

06-08-2006, 10:42 PM

William C. Maune

06-09-2006, 12:10 AM

So, in this case was Cartoon Network destined to air live-action ever since it targeted children as a demographic? Or is it that they're just to uncreative and desperate to find other ways to get viewers?

I don't believe that Cartoon Network is destined to air live-action simply because they are a children't network. I'd say they've been a children's network for years now.

Ykwia

06-10-2006, 01:13 AM

It's slowly becoming a lifestyle network for all ages, It will have all types of entertainment and a daily live show.

On the other hand, Cartoons Take Revenge Against the Network is now on GBStv, Go air it now.

One Radical Dude

06-10-2006, 01:14 AM

What's GBStv?

Ykwia

06-11-2006, 03:00 AM

http://www.gbs.tv

Kaoru

06-11-2006, 08:40 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gze7RE9uvM 1) I hate live action on cartoon television and cancelations of good originals.
2) What don't you like about Totally Spies?

As of now, Cartoon Network is more of a lifestyle network than a children's/family network. It's pairing with Adult Swim doesn't make it the best choice for cable operators to place on their family packs. No wonder my provider Foxtel doesn't have it under "My Playtime" which is the childrens package, so the only way I can watch CN is through the basic package. Thanks for clearing that up I was wondering why they set it up that way.

DarthGonzo

06-11-2006, 11:45 AM

As for the video, it is pretty well made, but I'm not sure what it constructively accomplishes. People need to remember that Adult Swim does not equal Cartoon Network. They are pretty much separately run. Furthermore, the video isn't very focused. It also complains about things like 12 oz. Mouse not being cancelled.

And it features an incredibly heavy emphasis on anime when, to be honest, I think the real shame is that CN no longer shows stuff like the Flintstones or Looney Tunes. It unfortunately shows the bias on the part of the creator of this video.

I had a hard time taking it seriously.

Master Moron

06-12-2006, 01:34 AM

1) I hate live action on cartoon television and cancelations of good originals.
2) What don't you like about Totally Spies?

He probably doesn't like it because it teaches girls to be shallow and snobby.

And it features an incredibly heavy emphasis on anime when, to be honest, I think the real shame is that CN no longer shows stuff like the Flintstones or Looney Tunes. It unfortunately shows the bias on the part of the creator of this video.

I had a hard time taking it seriously.

Heavy emphasis on anime? I had to watch the video again to see what you were talking about. The only animes in the video that seemed to be shown in a positive light were Gundam, Yu Yu Hakusho, Voltron, Naruto, and Rurouni Kenshin. Considering the number of clips in the video I don't think five animes is really that much. The Gundam and Yu Yu Hakusho clips were only on screen for two seconds anyway.

Edit:

Okay, there are at least 18 American cartoons shown in that video.

There were about 12 Japanese cartoons shown in that video.

There was 1 French cartoon shown in that video.

There were 9 live action things in that video.

There was 1 puppet show shown in that video.

These numbers are of course approximate, as I didn't recognize some of the clips.

Andrew T. Hingson

06-12-2006, 03:07 AM

That's the thing though it would be uncalled for to consider CN a failure. Not after all the good they've done. However, the CN we knew and loved is dead, burried and never coming back. Now all we oldies can hope for are moments of inspiration which CN has from time to time. Such as Miyazaki movies this year. CN does need a wake-up call though. They wont ever be the same but they shouldn't turn their backs on their legacy either. Airing live-action programing is just pissing on the networks grave. Even when it's good, it still doesn't belong on The Cartoon Network. But we've debated that plenty already so lets not do it again be you "for" or "against" LA on CN.

CN really should listen to the fandom a bit more though. They may not think we matter but IMO any potential audience should matter. CN needs to give up on this foolish game to be the next Nickelodeon. Nick can't be beat with 6-11 and they should know that by now. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have 6-11 targeted programing as well but they should broaden their spectrum and firmly grasp 12-24 before Nick takes those as well. And BTW, it looks like Nick is aiming to do just that with a stream of LA tween/teen hits. If CN doesn't wake up and smell the coffee soon there wont be a single demographic they'll be able to get to before Nick does.

Kaoru

06-12-2006, 09:22 PM

they should broaden their spectrum and firmly grasp 12-24 before Nick takes those as well. And BTW, it looks like Nick is aiming to do just that with a stream of LA tween/teen hits. If CN doesn't wake up and smell the coffee soon there wont be a single demographic they'll be able to get to before Nick does.
Nick is trying to take over teenage dems? I didn't get to watch cable for a while now, but it sounds too out of character to believe.

MrNEWZ

06-13-2006, 01:35 AM

I hope you're wrong, in that this fad will burn out once a converged cable market is saturated with the same content. It's not very likely that CN, or any other cable network can stay profitable sharing the same bland syndicated and ‘reality’ shows with a dozen competitors. This ‘me too’ business model can’t possibly compete with the Internet, Video on Demand, on-line rentals and download shows. There’s no way this model is sustainable.

Ding.

There are roughly 5 radio stations in the market I live in that play essentially the same mix of garbage. Turn on any of those stations and you can likely hear the SAME song within the span of 30 minutes if NOT AT THE SAME TIME. Eventually it will claim losers in the war as people will pick their favorite or the audience will be so spread that one will have to close shop--- and that's exactly what happened. 5 became 4 about a year ago.

What makes me laugh is realizing that X-Files is aired on TNT and Sci-Fi at the same time. And people wonder why Sci-Fi is dying and would jump at the chance to air wrestling.

What shocks me is that G4 hasn't tried to pick up MMA or wrestling yet, but I imagine it will be sooner rather than later...

MrNEWZ

06-13-2006, 08:03 PM

To add the hilarity of band wagon jumping and fear in the world of Cable Television, the OLN network (Outdoor Life Network) is rebranding soon. They will become the VERSUS Network and will attempt to start running weekly boxing shows on TV.

So now we'll have SpikeTV Clone #912323884 and people wonder why CN is trying to do things they've seen a more popular station (Nick) do to gain better viewers.

Someone once told me that TV executives are pretty much dependent on the climate. They're not likely to ever try ANYTHING that someone else or everyone else isn't already doing. When WCW was cut from Turner Networks, it was death for any company outside of the WWE trying to get TV... and now, with MMA it seems to be going the other way. Spike broke out with strength even without the WWE. TNA's ratings are still respectable and other networks are noticing... and thus, copying to stay alive or make money.

Yup.