In my day, parents did their job

[JustJack]

I know this has been discussed before, but today at work, my buddy Tim & I were talking about this "disrespectable piece of trash generation coming up". Hehe, eventually he remarked "Back in my day, parents punished us. Parents can't punish their damn kids now adays!"

And that made me think...
I don't think the problem is so much that parents don't punish their kids, as much as parents CAN'T punish their kids, BY LAW, anymore!

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving your kid a little(nothing major) spanking, when they misbehave. And believe me, a soar butt taught me plenty. But, now adays, if a parent so much as grabs a childs arm in an angry manner, they can be investigated, and whatnot for it. I've seen it happen in the park all the time. Kids playing, angry mom comes up, because child did something bad. Parent grabs childs arm, points at them, gives them the normal scolding. 5 minutes late, a cop car/child services pulls up, & asks questions. I see it all the time.

Now, don't jump on me about "child beating" and whatnot, because all I'm saying is a little butt smacking :p But, really...just because of situations like the above mentioned, parents simply don't seem to bother with punishing their kids anymore.

Oh, and Grounding them does NOTHING. All it does is piss them off more. hehe...its true, and you know it! ;)

[batboy2001]

I must honestly say, if I hadn't gotten a little smack on the butt when I was bad as a child, I would probaly be out of control. :D I really think it's the best way.

[Jedigreedo]

Are you talking about all parents in general or just the parents that care wether or not their kids behave?

[Calhoun07]

I wish people actually lived by the It Takes A Village to Raise a Child idea. Just 100 years ago (not too long ago, actually) it was nothing out of the ordinary for a neighbor to swat a child on the butt if they got out of hand. Spanking is NOT abusing a child. Not punishing a child should be considered abuse, because it's neglect and abuses children in a way they end up worse off than before. If you can get in trouble in a crime as an accomplice if you do NOTHING then doing nothing when your kids act up should also be a crime. And time outs and groundings might as well be doing nothing.

[batboy2001]

Just remember Cal, "it would take a villlage to drag hillary clinton into the no spin zone" :D

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by batboy2001
Just remember Cal, "it would take a villlage to drag hillary clinton into the no spin zone" :D

No Spin Zone? That reminds me of Bill O'Reilly. Does that come from him?

[batboy2001]

Who else? I LOVE that show! :D

[Clayface]

I'm not really for or against spanking, but I don't think its necessary. I think only lazy parents need to use spanking to keep their children in line. If you raise your child properly, from the start, you dont' ever have to smack them in any way. I know, because I was raised without ever being hit or spanked, and I was never out of control nor did I ever get into any trouble. Maybe people ought to take the time to learn to properly raise their children rather than whining about not being able to spank them.

[batboy2001]

I might take that as an insult. :p I am from the view of man is bad, not good. I never got in trouble BTW. ;)

[killercroc]

Originally posted by Clayface
I'm not really for or against spanking, but I don't think its necessary. I think only lazy parents need to use spanking to keep their children in line. If you raise your child properly, from the start, you dont' ever have to smack them in any way. I know, because I was raised without ever being hit or spanked, and I was never out of control nor did I ever get into any trouble. Maybe people ought to take the time to learn to properly raise their children rather than whining about not being able to spank them.

Dude, you said exactly what I was gonna say. I never got a spanking either, and I was always a good kid. As a matter of fact, it seemed like the kids that got spankings were the worst behaved. Nothing scientific there, just my opinion.

You're so right when you say it's lazy parenting. There is always another way to discipline a kid. Why do people act like hitting their kid proves they love them? It's consistency that counts!

[The Guard]

I got spanked with wooden spoons, had to eat soap, etc, and none of that made me into a good person. BEING a good person made me into a good person. Oh...and a tip for anyone who gets spanked with wooden spoons. DON'T put a frying pan down the back of your pants as a shield. It may SEEM like a good idea, but it only amplifies the spankwave.

[Singin' Stray Cat]

I'm not against spanking, but I don't think it should be used as a catch-all disciplinary method. If a look or a tone of voice is all that's needed to reprimand a child, then spanking's not necessary. It's just a matter of knowing what your child is like, and knowing what actions will keep him/her from doing what you don't want them to do.

Of course, this opinion might change if and when I ever have kids of my own. :rolleyes:

PS: Oooh, Guard, sorry to hear that... I occasionally got a flyswatter to the rump myself. But only if I was reeeeally bad. :o

[Terminatah]

All you will accomplish by physically reprimanding your child is to strip him of his dignity. If that's your goal, then you're just being petty and you're not really solving the problem. I think most kids can learn not to be stupid if you treat them intelligently and reason with them so that they see the right course of action for next time.

It helps to remember that some people usually learn by making mistakes. I remember a couple of instances very long ago where my mom attempted to adopt the policy of grounding. Even then, I looked down on her as a confused creature at the end of her rope. I guess what I'm saying is, if you treat your kids like animals, and they don't know any better, that's what they're going to become.

-Terminatah

[Colin]

Well, I'm not a big advocate for spanking... and my parents never did ground us when my brothers and I were younger... when we got punished... we were sent to our rooms... You can't even do that with kids these days... between having a TV with 600 cable channels, 50 video game systems, a computer, their own phone line, etc, it's more like rewarding them...

And parents today also seem to let their kids have whatever they want... I just love it when a family comes into the store, a 5 year-old kid says "I'll have a cup of Vanilla" and Mom and/or Dad are like? "Are you sure you want Vanilla... look they have Cookie Dough... Do you want anything on it? They've got M&Ms... Gummis... Reeses." Why, back in my day, I could get a cup of ice cream with SPRINKLES! And what's the deal with parents bringing their 6 year-old kid to an ice cream store at 9:30 at night??? When I was that young I had been in bed and fast asleep for at least 2 1/2 hours!!!

...Kids today have it so easy, yet they complain that their parents are too hard...

...I feel like a cynical old man =X

[G. Wen]

I believe that coming up w/ an appropiate punishment helps dicipline a child more than spanking would. For ex., if your child draws on the walls, instead of spanking him/her, it may be a better idea to make him/her clean up the mess (s)he made and take away his/her crayons for a week.
What pisses me off is this: every yr., there are 15,000 cases of child abuse that are serious enough to require hospital care. And you think the doctors and nurses would report these incindents to the authorities. They don't. These children are often repeat patients in the hospitals due to child abuse. Instead of reporting serious cases of child abuse, society decides to report cases of child dicipline, such as mommy grabbing Johnny's arm and scolding him in the park as a case of child abuse!
On a lighter note, has anyone here every heard of the Planet Charlie rules? Rule 4 for Planet Charlie was "If your child is acting like a brat in public and you refuse to hit him, we can hit him for you!"

[Failure]

I was spanked as a kid, it's not that my parents were lazy or anything, but that;s how they learned when they were kids.

I dont think a little spanking is bad, it just depends why the parent is doing it. If the parrent is doing it to teach their child, I think that's a positive. If the parent is doing it because their kid is annoying them, then that's not good. THere's a big difference. Unfortunately, I've seen more instances of the 2nd case than the 1st.

[JustJack]

Spanking is not the lazy parents way out. Simply letting the child run free, is the lazy parents way out. A spanking, a scolding, a little speach, then a visit into ones room. That seems to work.

I think parents need to focus more on raising a childs conscience, before anything else. I guess thats how my parents raised me. I would ultimately punish myself, if I did anything wrong in the first place. And, even now when I'm more prone to simply 'do stuff', I always kick myself in the end. Then again, I'm smart enough not to do anything in the first place. Hehe. Its all about the conscience.

Colin has a good point. Today's kids complain about parents being to hard. Uhm...out of everyone I know..who bought their own car? Uhm...none of them? Who did...ah..I see...you're parents..huh. Yes, teenagers are friggin' stupid. I hate it, when my friend(of whom's parents got him a really nice car) complained about having to pay for his gas. Honestly, we'de be playing video games all afternoon, decide to go to the mall, but first he has to stop by mommy's work, and ask for gas money. GAH!?! :rolleyes:

[Terminatah]

Originally posted by JustJack
Spanking is not the lazy parents way out. Simply letting the child run free, is the lazy parents way out. A spanking, a scolding, a little speach, then a visit into ones room. That seems to work.

Well, he meant that spanking is a lazy and intolerant way to respond to disobedience when the alternative involves taking your time, teaching the kid, and not demeaning him in the process.

-Terminatah

[SilverKnight]

Originally posted by Colin
Well, I'm not a big advocate for spanking... and my parents never did ground us when my brothers and I were younger... when we got punished... we were sent to our rooms... You can't even do that with kids these days... between having a TV with 600 cable channels, 50 video game systems, a computer, their own phone line, etc, it's more like rewarding them...


My family never had that, but there's a very simple way to remedy that, that would REALLY piss my brothers and sisters off, but teach them, even into their teenage years.

The corner.

I know it sounds stupid, but my parents never grounded, and never sent you to your room for that specific reason. But, what my mom would do is order my bro or sis to face a corner of the room for X amount of time. Like I said, I know it sounds stupid or cruel or whatever, but it gets the job done. Half the time, the kid in the corner would be thinking "man, this is crap, so is SO stupid", but they do it anyway, and hopefully, considering they don't want it to happen again, they won't do whatever the hell they did in the first place to get there.

I have bad language, but I never started swearing until the 8th grade. Why? Fear of Mom, that's why. If she so much heard me or anyone else say "shut up", we'd get our mouth washed out with soap. Now, call me old fashioned, but I think kids should fear there parents a bit. Not alot, not for when you make a mistake and have to tell someone, not anything like that, but just enough to scare them straight when they're about to do something they know is wrong. (...Okay, maybe "fear" is the wrong word. What I mean is, teaching your kid right and wrong. You fear the consequences of doing something wrong. But personally, I'd rather do the right thing, not because I fear doing the WRONG thing, but the right thing is what I was taught to do, no matter what. That was the first and big thing my parents taught me. You do what's right. ALWAYS. But I digress...) To me (and probably everyone else), my mom was the end-all, be-all disciplinary figure. Never EVER cross her. You piss her off, you pay. Whether it be the corner, Dove in the mouth, or just a general quick swat to the butt, you would get what's coming to you. IF YOU DO THE WRONG THING. If you annoyed her, she'd just yell for a second or two to "cut that out". That may be the big thing about discipline. If your kid grows up knowing the difference between right and wrong, it doesn't really MATTER how you disciplined them.

Now, since my rant is over, I realize that may be considered "petty" and "lazy". You have the right to whatever opinion you want. But, may I remind you that no two situations are the same. No two children the same. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that different methods of discipline are needed for different situations and different children. I'm not one for "spanking" per se, but when I was little, if I did something wrong, my mom would grab my arm, yell at me, and give me one (ONE) smack on the butt to get her point across. May not be the best method, but it worked for me.

At least, that's my two cents. Thank God I don't have children.

[SilverKnight]

Originally posted by JustJack
Colin has a good point. Today's kids complain about parents being to hard. Uhm...out of everyone I know..who bought their own car? Uhm...none of them? Who did...ah..I see...you're parents..huh. Yes, teenagers are friggin' stupid. I hate it, when my friend(of whom's parents got him a really nice car) complained about having to pay for his gas. Honestly, we'de be playing video games all afternoon, decide to go to the mall, but first he has to stop by mommy's work, and ask for gas money. GAH!?! :rolleyes:

Um, no offense, Jack, but not every teenager is some idiotic, whiny, retarded bum who can't tie their own shoelaces without proper supervision. I know alot of teenagers whom you're describing, and it makes ME sick about how they moan about stupid crap for no reason. So, you're not alone. But there are just as many teenagers who BUY their own cars, who pay thier own way through college, who buy their food, their clothing, thier gas. It's understandable that this generation of teenagers has far more than yours or generations previous, but you have to remember, there are people that take things for granted in EVERY generation. And I find it not only hypocritical, but funny that those people that whined about stuff that was so convenient to them, complain about others doing the same thing they did. >ahem< That's my rant on stereotypes. :) Enjoy.

[kiddiesunshine]

spanking works!! it worked for me and my sibs. that's what's wrong with kids today. parents don't want to make them feel bad, as if the parents don't feel bad when their kids disobey. spanking is a last resort, implemented when threats and ultimatums fail.

spank and make it hurt, so kids consider the consequences of their actions. let your kids know you mean business. look them in the eyes when you talk to them. reward the good to promote more. punish bad to promote less. give them the feeling that you are always with them to discourage sneaky behavior.
let them know you love them and that you want them to be the best they can be.

[SilverKnight]

Originally posted by kiddiesunshine
spanking works!! it worked for me and my sibs. that's what's wrong with kids today. parents don't want to make them feel bad, as if the parents don't feel bad when their kids disobey. spanking is a last resort, implemented when threats and ultimatums fail.

spank and make it hurt, so kids consider the consequences of their actions. let your kids know you mean business. look them in the eyes when you talk to them. reward the good to promote more. punish bad to promote less. give them the feeling that you are always with them to discourage sneaky behavior.
let them know you love them and that you want them to be the best they can be.

What you said. :D It's a last resort. I'm not saying beat the kid black and blue or anything, but one or two swats to the butt will get the idea across. >shrugs<

[The Flash]

If the kid has it comin', then spank away. If you do something bad, and get spanked for it. You'll think twice before doing it again. That's the way I see it.

JustJack, my dad is making me buy my car. What is your point? Yes most kids ARE spoiled brats, but there are some that arn't. >points to himself<

[Nightflower]

JustJack, I think, is 17, so if he's complaining, he's probably not stereotyping and he has every right to, just as you have every right to debunk him.

I think spanking is okay, when used sparingly, because not only does it tweak your conscience less, but your kid will remember it for quite a while.

Unfortunately, I think my mom was a little too harsh- she hit my hand with a wooden ruler or a metal tamborine and slapped me- which I think doesn't do anything but instill fear, and later, loathing.

And yeah, I'm pretty spoiled :) Don't have a car, but my mom will usually let me use hers.

[JustJack]

Originally posted by SilverKnight


Um, no offense, Jack, but not every teenager is some idiotic, whiny, retarded bum who can't tie their own shoelaces without proper supervision. I know alot of teenagers whom you're describing, and it makes ME sick about how they moan about stupid crap for no reason. So, you're not alone. But there are just as many teenagers who BUY their own cars, who pay thier own way through college, who buy their food, their clothing, thier gas. It's understandable that this generation of teenagers has far more than yours or generations previous, but you have to remember, there are people that take things for granted in EVERY generation. And I find it not only hypocritical, but funny that those people that whined about stuff that was so convenient to them, complain about others doing the same thing they did. >ahem< That's my rant on stereotypes. :) Enjoy.


Yep, I am 17(thanks Nightflower! ;) ). hehe. I am the teenager who buys his own car, stuff, etc.. I work friggin' hard. But since I'm in the center of it all, I just find it painfully annoying how so many of my fellow people, get EVERYTHING from their parents, then go right behind their backs, & badmouth them till dawn! It just aint right, I says! It just aint right! ;)

[NewMaxFranklin]

Spanking doesn't work. It only teaches kids that violence is the solution to their problems. My parents spanked my siblins and me. All it did was make us hate them, temporarily. Once I got bigger I nearly came to blows with my father more than once. And got in crazy shouting matches with my mother because I was tired of being pushed around. I resented them both for a long time.

I agree that spanking is an easy, knee-jerk reaction. And If I ever hit my own children I will consider it a personal failure as a parent.

I remember once when my little brother was very young and I was maybe seven, or so. He did something and I spanked like my mother would me. Just barley slapped his butt once. I didn't hurt him, didn't want to. I wanted to teach him. But, I learned the lesson that day. My father must have seen me spank him, because I got the crap spanked out of me.

I remember many times when I had to defend myself from physical attacks from my younger brother and sister.

I think the three of us will have to work very hard for much of our lives to work out all our built-up frustration and purge the notion that violence is acceptable from our subconsciuos.'

[Terminatah]

Let's say my kid takes up cigarettes or something. I won't spank him, I won't slap him, I won't touch him. I'll say, "Son, stop that," and end the conversation there. He will get to hear this exactly 10 times. The eleventh time, I hit him with the car.

-Terminatah

[SilverKnight]

Originally posted by NewMaxFranklin
Spanking doesn't work. It only teaches kids that violence is the solution to their problems.
Maybe spanking isn't the solution, but complete inaction isn't a solution, either. A line has to be drawn sooner or later.
My parents spanked my siblins and me. All it did was make us hate them, temporarily. Once I got bigger I nearly came to blows with my father more than once. And got in crazy shouting matches with my mother because I was tired of being pushed around. I resented them both for a long time.

I'm not saying smack the crap out of the kid, but when the kid just doesn't get it, after time and time again of warning them to stop doing the wrong thing, enough is enough. My mom would hit me on the butt once, as a last resort, just hard enough to get my attention, so to speak.


I agree that spanking is an easy, knee-jerk reaction. And If I ever hit my own children I will consider it a personal failure as a parent.

I remember once when my little brother was very young and I was maybe seven, or so. He did something and I spanked like my mother would me. Just barley slapped his butt once. I didn't hurt him, didn't want to. I wanted to teach him. But, I learned the lesson that day. My father must have seen me spank him, because I got the crap spanked out of me.

See, that's wrong. If a kid is punished, they should know why. If they don't know what they're being punished for, then they're only going to be confused, and later, angry. You have ever right to be resentful if they went overboard, as it sounds like they were doing with you.

I remember many times when I had to defend myself from physical attacks from my younger brother and sister.
Heh, get in line. :)


I think the three of us will have to work very hard for much of our lives to work out all our built-up frustration and purge the notion that violence is acceptable from our subconsciuos.'
Violence, to me, is only acceptable as a very last resort. I don't like confrontation, I don't like fights. But if someone tries to kill me or my family, you're damn right I'd take any action necessary to keep them or me from harm. Of course, that is a completely differnet subject, but I'm just using that as a general example.

Kids are brats. They're hard-headed, and stubborn. For me, when I was little, sometimes a small swat was what I needed to set me straight. Is it right? Maybe. Maybe not. It entirely depends upon the child. Some take it to heart, some don't. Some may think they did something wrong and stop, and some may think that their parents are big stupid heads, in a child's way of putting it. >shrugs< It all depends. Personally, I think a small swat used only when they do something dangerous and/or wrong can do wonders. So, I dunno.

Oh, and jack, I didn't realize you were 17. You were talking like you were 50 or something, which I found rather odd.

[The Flash]

I gotta go w/ SK on this one, HEAVILY! She's almost dead on right, imho. If the kid doesn't behave, then they need some sort of punishment! You can't let the kid get away with everything. Take away his/her fav toy for a week, depending on what they did. If you don't know the consequences then you're gunna be a pain the butt to everyone else for the rest of your life.

[Stardust]

i just skimmed through some of the posts; i feel neutral to spanking. sometimes i feel like it's harsh, but other times i think it could be positive reinforcement, for example: a child walks over to the stove and you take him away because the stove is hot. well, you can tell the child all you want how hot the stove is but he won't understand until one day he touches it when it's hot and he cries. that's how he learns, by experience. i'm not saying spanking should be an experience, but when it's not used so often, then it pretty much says to the kid, "oh my gosh my mom/dad is really mad, i've crossed the line and i'm [hopefully] never going to do that again."


Spanking doesn't work. It only teaches kids that violence is the solution to their problems.
i wasn't spanked as a child either, but i did become somewhat a violent person. during high school when i got angry, i have a hard time communicating my point across to my dad, so i'd stomp away and i don't know, hit the door, slam the door, punch something. very destructive. when me and my twin argue, more often than not we'd get into a real fist fight. not some catfight, i mean punching and screaming (which didn't really help, either, cuz we both are black belts in Taekwondo). i didn't get violent because i was spanked. i don't know if i'll ever spank my kids, but i'm not opposed to it.

[kiddiesunshine]

whatever gets the job done! since i'm a gamefreak, whenever i did wrong, my games were confiscated.

[SilverKnight]

Originally posted by Stardust
i just skimmed through some of the posts; i feel neutral to spanking. sometimes i feel like it's harsh, but other times i think it could be positive reinforcement, for example: a child walks over to the stove and you take him away because the stove is hot. well, you can tell the child all you want how hot the stove is but he won't understand until one day he touches it when it's hot and he cries. that's how he learns, by experience. i'm not saying spanking should be an experience, but when it's not used so often, then it pretty much says to the kid, "oh my gosh my mom/dad is really mad, i've crossed the line and i'm [hopefully] never going to do that again."
Before I moved, I lived right off a semi busy road. When I was moving, my two year old nephew walked out onto that same road while a car was coming. Luckily, the car was on the other side of the road, and that he didn't run when we came charging after him. Did his mom give a smack on the butt for that? Hell yeah. He could've been killed. A swat is gentle comparative. Has he ever done that since? No. Was it because of the spanking? Possibly. But we've also kept a very VERY close eye on him when we're within walking distance to any road. But I personally think the smack let him know he did something wrong. That and the scolding. :) Like I said, I think it's a last resort. Done with something wrong and/or dangerous. Not because you're annoyed, not because you want them to shut up, but because they could hurt themselves or someone else. >shrugs<



i wasn't spanked as a child either, but i did become somewhat a violent person. during high school when i got angry, i have a hard time communicating my point across to my dad, so i'd stomp away and i don't know, hit the door, slam the door, punch something. very destructive. when me and my twin argue, more often than not we'd get into a real fist fight. not some catfight, i mean punching and screaming (which didn't really help, either, cuz we both are black belts in Taekwondo). i didn't get violent because i was spanked. i don't know if i'll ever spank my kids, but i'm not opposed to it.

...ow. >shakes head< Like I said, every kid is different. Stardust wasn't spanked and she turned out combative. :D I got swatted when I did something wrong, I turned out fine. ('Fine' being used loosely...>smiles<) Max got disciplined severely, I guess, and he became resentful. There's no cure-all rule for kids. Use whatever works.

[SilverKnight]

Oh, one other thing, just to make my point clear. I'm talking SMALL children. Like 2 or 3 year olds. Beyond that point, spanking grows old and ineffective, whereas the corner or other punishments work better.

[Failure]

Originally posted by Nightflower
Unfortunately, I think my mom was a little too harsh- she hit my hand with a wooden ruler or a metal tamborine and slapped me- which I think doesn't do anything but instill fear, and later, loathing.

I've gotten the ruler on hand treatment. Surprisingly painful. I've also got hit by other things, which honestly, would prolly constitute child abuse in this country. But I've never really feared my parents or held a grudge. All that stopped in elementary school though, they havent really hit me since. Punishments turned into more like, "take away computer, tv, vid game privilieges" and so on. And now, no punishments! Well, besides lectures and other miscellaneous items. I think the worst "punishment" I've endured is when you get oneof your prized possessions destroyed. That justs breaks your spirit. Til you bounce back of course.

All in all, I'm prolly going to be a more understanding, less harsh parent, although that doesnt preclude the threat of a little spanking. It all depends on the situations, there's no one thing that serves as a cure-all.

[Stardust]

Originally posted by SilverKnight


...ow. >shakes head< Like I said, every kid is different. Stardust wasn't spanked and she turned out combative. :D I got swatted when I did something wrong, I turned out fine. ('Fine' being used loosely...>smiles<) Max got disciplined severely, I guess, and he became resentful. There's no cure-all rule for kids. Use whatever works.

come to think of it.....maybe i became combative because against my sis, it was a good way to practice our martial arts...:p it's not everyday i get attacked by a mugger =P

[Danielle]

My family believes that the oldest is also responsible for the deeds of the younger children. Man, you wouldn't know *how* many times I got a good whapping after my little sis would do something to drive them nuts. Then again, I could say the same for my older sister.....

In this generation, the kids rule, and therefore get spoiled and snobby waaaaay beyond the limit. Hopefully, the next generation will have more sense.

[NewMaxFranklin]

I just knew my "teaches kids that violence..." line would get quoted like crazy. I didn't mean to give the impression that my parents were abusive. That is not true. I'm just very adverse to physical punishment. I don't think you should hurt the ones you love. It's unjustifiable IMO.

My point was that if you hit your children (let's not sugar-coat it, spanking is hitting) where do you draw the line? If spanking is acceptable, why not put the paddle back in the classrooms? Maybe there should be spanking ordinances, like in boxing: open hand only; no ruller longer than 12', etc.

I think that spanking like racism and other pattern behaviors, is accepted because the generations keep passing it down. Just because your parents and their parents and their's before them spanked their children does that make it right? I judge people as people. I don't believe my parents were right to spank me. But I forgive them. Everyone makes mistakes. But, we have to learn from them, not just accept them.

[Calhoun07]

I don't think that parents who properly use spanking are doing it just to hurt their kids. When a parent says it will hurt them more than it hurts the kid, they mean it. It's not an easy thing to resort to, and they are doing it because they do love their kids. Do you think they care enough to spank just anybody?

And I do think paddles should be put back in schools.

The butt is an extremely padded area made to take the spankings. There is a reason it is chosen to be slapped. And we aren't talking about abusive marathons of beatings here, just a swift whap up the back side to knock some sense into a kid. It's effective, and I think people who have been spanked as children turn out to be better behaved as adults. You do know the difference even when they are adults of who got a good whap up the back side now and then and those kids who got away with just politically correct "time outs."

And I am sorry that if there are those of you who had bad experiences growing up with not being disciplined in the way you felt appropriate, but most people do feel they turned out better because of spanking, not because it's a learned behaviour like racism, but because it DID knock some sense into them and made them turn into better behaved people. I know there are parents out there that abuse their privilege with spanking. I don't think spanking should be the knee-jerk reaction (people have pointed out other effective disciplinary tools in this tread, such as taking prized toys away) but it should be a part of other disciplinary devices used when APPROPRIATE. Used appropriately, it is effective, and I don't think it scars a child for life.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07

And I do think paddles should be put back in schools.



I'll be keeping my children out of those schools then, thank you very much! ;)




The butt is an extremely padded area made to take the spankings. There is a reason it is chosen to be slapped.



Yeah, and abusive spouses often choose to hit their victims in the stomach because it won't do any permanent damage and leaves bruises where they can't be seen - that doesn't make it right.




And we aren't talking about abusive marathons of beatings here, just a swift whap up the back side to knock some sense into a kid. It's effective, and I think people who have been spanked as children turn out to be better behaved as adults.



And that right there is the key to what NewMaxFranklin was saying. You think that they turn out better. But so far, all studies that have been done on the subject don't back up what you think. Studies so far haven't shown any true benefit from using spanking as a way to discipline, and, for the most part, have shown thatthey only teach children violence and fear. There are better ways to raise a child, that work more effectively and don't require violence.




And I am sorry that if there are those of you who had bad experiences growing up with not being disciplined in the way you felt appropriate, but most people do feel they turned out better because of spanking,



You say most feel they turned out better, but do you have anything that shows they really did?

What's seen most often is a sort of Stockholm syndrome effect - the "abused" comes to a point where they begin to sympathize with the abuser, and eventually take on the same pratices. I'm not saying spanking is necessarily abuse or that this is what happens with everyone that supports spanking, but it could fall into that category.




not because it's a learned behaviour like racism, but because it DID knock some sense into them and made them turn into better behaved people.



That may be true, but the fact is, there are always other non-violent ways to do the same thing. People say spanking is a "last resort", but a lot of the time they've not really tried all the other options.




but it should be a part of other disciplinary devices used when APPROPRIATE. Used appropriately, it is effective, and I don't think it scars a child for life.


But the question is: when is it "appropriate"? I don't think that hitting a child is ever appropriate.

[killercroc]

There is ALWAYS another solution to the problem besides spanking. Always!

That leaves the choice very easy to me. Hit my son or not? I say not.

I'm not saying that there should be a law against spanking your kid. Just saying I'm never gonna do it cause I don't think it's necessary. I don't think other parents should do it either, just don't think it's effective parenting.

And what you were saying, Calhoun07 about the neighbors giving the kids a swat...I pity the fool! :eek:

[Calhoun07]

well, if Clayface is going to equate a spanking to an abusive relationship between spouses, I doubt anything I can say will shake his view. But I just know what I know from personal experiences, not from what doctors tell me I should know or from what politically correct psychologists tell me what I should know. I know people who have been raised on both sides of the fence and those who were raised with spankings tell me that they support it, and they certianly aren't in fear of the world and violent people. I can guarantee you if I showed those people what was said in this thread, they would disagree.

On the other hand, I know people who are on the opposite side, who never got spanked and who were raised with politically correct means of "discipline." And I have to say that those people handle themselves quite different, and you can tell they needed to be smaked around more as children.

To discipline a child is not wrong. To punish a child is. Discipline comes from the word to disciple, which is to teach by leading. To punish a child is to push the child, and often pushes them away. Spanking as a form of punishment is wrong, as it will push the child away from the parent, but the people I know and from whom I've talked to, spanking used as a form of discipline is far more effective as a way to teach a child from right and wrong.

I guess if you can never see the right in it, you either were never properly disciplined in such a way, or it was used against you as a form of punishment, and I can see how that would affect somebody's world view.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07
well, if Clayface is going to equate a spanking to an abusive relationship between spouses, I doubt anything I can say will shake his view.



Oh, I'm not necessarily equating the two. What I was trying to point out is that the reasoning you gave doesn't justify the action. That same reasoning is used for many other wrong actions, and thus the justification should be better presented or better thought out.




But I just know what I know from personal experiences, not from what doctors tell me I should know or from what politically correct psychologists tell me what I should know.



Hmmm. I sense a real cynicism here for authority figures. I've never really understood that sort on mentality - I mean, who would know these things better than those that have dedicated their lives to studying it? Why would we discount or throw away that knowledge?




I know people who have been raised on both sides of the fence and those who were raised with spankings tell me that they support it, and they certianly aren't in fear of the world and violent people. I can guarantee you if I showed those people what was said in this thread, they would disagree.



Oh, and I agree. There are plenty that would say that. But two points I want to make here.

1) Polling the people you know isn't very scientific, not does it necessarily represent the whole.

2) Child molesters and spouse abusers swear up and down they aren't wrong or messed up in the head, but clearly they are. Anyone and everyone can justify their own beliefs and actions as "right" - again, that doesn't make them so. Asking someone that's insane if their healthy will often result in that person saying they're fine, and its the rest of the world that's screwed up.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people that spank are insane, or messed up in the head, or terrible human beings. I am just pointing out that you have to be careful where the info is coming from, and view it in that context.




On the other hand, I know people who are on the opposite side, who never got spanked and who were raised with politically correct means of "discipline." And I have to say that those people handle themselves quite different, and you can tell they needed to be smaked around more as children.



Two things again:

1) What do you mean by "you can tell"? I mean, what about their behaviour says that "smacking" them around would have mde them better?

2) Ok, these people weren't hit as children, and maybe they didn't turn out correctly as adults. But does that mean non-violent discipline didn't work? No. It means that, most likely, improper non-violent disciplines were used. That maybe these people's parents weren't any more informed or less lazy than those that rely on smacking their children. But it doesn't say anything about whether or not non-violent means worked.

We don't know anything about the actual methods used by these people's parents. There are too many other factors involved here with this sort of example to say for sure whether or not spanking would have done better or worse. Thus, again, I turn back to the studies that have been done - studies that use control groups and take into account all the various factors. And these show, so far, that spanking isn't a more efective method of discipline.




To discipline a child is not wrong. To punish a child is. Discipline comes from the word to disciple, which is to teach by leading. To punish a child is to push the child, and often pushes them away. Spanking as a form of punishment is wrong, as it will push the child away from the parent, but the people I know and from whom I've talked to, spanking used as a form of discipline is far more effective as a way to teach a child from right and wrong.



Well, my question here is, how do you know what forms of non-violent discipline these people used before they resorted to spanking?




PS - only 5 more posts until I hit #1000!!! Woo-hoo!

[Calhoun07]

Hmmm. I sense a real cynicism here for authority figures. I've never really understood that sort on mentality - I mean, who would know these things better than those that have dedicated their lives to studying it? Why would we discount or throw away that knowledge?

Not really, just those trying to sell their books and promote a new "fad" of child care. I'll listen to authority figures who have nothing to gain from giving me that information, nor have an agenda to promote their view in order to sell books.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07


Not really, just those trying to sell their books and promote a new "fad" of child care. I'll listen to authority figures who have nothing to gain from giving me that information, nor have an agenda to promote their view in order to sell books.


Fair enough. But, its not just the one's that are trying to sell books that say that spanking is ineffective and sometime harmful. These studies were done by real researchers, peer reviewed, and published in journals - the same route any real scientific research goes through. Don't dismiss it because a few bad apples are trying to cash in on it.

[NewMaxFranklin]

I'm not going to get all quotey, because I hate it when people pick apart what I say. I try to refrain from; "hey, I could pull this sentence out of your five paragraphs and interpret it to mean...." posts. Still, I like the way Clahoun and Clayface have ran away with this topic. This is great intelligent dedate here and frankly, I want to be a part of it. ;) But, as for taking a side... I'm staying on my own. :D Kudos, guys.

Where there's smoke there's fire. And where thers's an argument for violence, the phrase "last resort;" which is code for, "When I loose my patience," can't be far off.

One of the glairing problems with spanking seems to be the lack of objectivity a parent has. A teacher or babysitter can't strike a child in their care. Somehow, they manage to find another way. But, to parents their children are also possessions. They have deep emotional ties to their childeren. It's absurd to think that they can step outside themselves and be fair and impartial enough to dish out physical punishment.

When they act, it is in frustration and often less about teaching a child than showing them "who's boss." If they actually stopped and thought would they hit their children at all?

There is a palpable sense of assertive dominance in spanking. As well as the release of frustration on a parents part. When parents scold their children or spank them are they remorseful at the act? Are they "teaching their child a lesson," or "TEACHING THEIR CHILD A LESSON!!!?

Are they somber as their hand strikes their own flesh and blood? Or are they red in the face? Do they say, "You shouldn't do that because..." Or do they stike the child FIRST and shout things like: "You listen to me when I'm talking to you!" Maybe later they'll explain why they had to do what they did. That it was for the child's "own good." But, at that point, it's not about the child anymore. It's about absolving themselves. Looking for justification to escape the shame of knowing they were wrong.

At that point they're just spouting the old tune their parents taught them. The worst part; The saddest part; is that the child believes them. They believe they "deserved it." Surely their own children will deserve the same.

[Failure]

I'm going to have to agree with Cal here. The difference depends on whether spanking is disciplinary or for punishment.

First of all, let's say that spanking stops at 1 or 2 swats at the butt that might sting for a second, and doesnt go into rage-driven abuse.

I think kids cant always necessarily tell whether what they do is right or wrong. Telling them, sending them into a corner, or etc. aren't necessarily enough to get the message through them. I see spanking as just another option to show a child that what they are doing is wrong by equating their actions with a momentary sensation of pain. Of course, this depends on the child as well, some may learn just by grounding them or whatever, but many dont.

I think where spanking gets a bad rap is like NMF said "are you teaching them a lesson" or "ARE YOU TEACHING THEM A LESSON." (Sorry for quoting you NMF, but it's a good one :) ) Usually spanking is seen as an outlet for an parent's anger and I'll agree that that's when spanking becomes unhelpful in a child's development. But on the other hand, it's possible to spank a child "with love," and then explain why they had to do that.

[Elven Moon]

I was rarely spanked as a child... I was whacked a few times, or grounded, or they put me in time out, or took away something, but that's about it. I was afraid when they got angry, though, because when they got angry... you knew you were in trouble.

Anyway, technically I did pay for my car. They only put in $1000, and I payed the rest. I pay for gas, repairs, etc. My parents DO pay for my college classes, but I pay for books and supplies, which, believe me, is a HUGE chunk of change if you're an art major. I really envy kids today. They are so spoiled (well, the ones I've seen) nowadays. Man, I feel like an old fart when I say that, and I don't turn 21 for a few months :p

[killercroc]

Since personal observations and feeling are being used in this debate here are some of my own. I'm gonna try to avoid getting "quotey" also and picking apart individual arguments.

For all the kids that were raised with no spanking and turned out as adults that should have been smacked, seems like there are five or six that were spanked and could have used less spankings. Just as you can tell when certain people weren't spanked, I can tell when certain people were spanked. It affects the way they approach problems.

The funny thing is that people here come from all backgrounds as far as their upbringing goes, that goes for the people I know in RL also. And you know what? They all turn out to be decent people. Luckily, you don't have to raise your kids word for word out of Spocks manual to have them turn out OK. Love them and encourage them and give them confidence. Unless something really awful happens they'll turn out alright.

Still I think less spanking would get us a long way towards creating a more perfect world. We haven't had much change in attitude since before Christ. I think it's about time. If so, maybe we could have dealt with this 9/11 thing differently instead of going over there and letting our actions create the next generation of terrorists.

Quite a debate this has turned into. And it has been civil all the way. Hey maybe we're the ones who are gonna cause the paradigm change!

Lemme say it again. There is ALWAYS another way!

[SilverKnight]

Alright, you guys have made your point. You can be all authoritative without resorting to spanking. I get the concept. Then again, I'd never hit my kid with a ruler, slap them across the face, or sit them down and spank them repeatedly for several seconds.

Okay, I'll be honest. No sugar-coating here. If I had a kid, I'd lose my patience with him/her all the time. I'm a very impatient person, but that aside, kids are spoiled, rude, and inconsiderant. They care about nothing except food, drinks, and crapping their pants. (Again, I'm talking small children.) I'd love him/her with all my heart, and no, I'd never want to hurt my child, but let's be realistic about it here. Can most of you ever remember a time when you were little that you thought about what your PARENTS wanted instead of you? I personally don't really remember ANYTHING before I was ten, but since I was living my first decade inside my head, I sincerely doubt it. I'm not saying this to justify me spanking my child. Can I ever justify it? I guess not. Will that stop me from swatting my kid's butt once if he's is about to stick his hand on the burner of a stove? No. Maybe it does teach my kid fear, but a little fear isn't a bad thing.

Max brought up the school issue. Since I've only been out of school for less than a year, let me just ask this: do you know how MANY disciplinary problems there are in schools? "They find another way" my ass. And I, in my opinion, believe a good 15% to 20% of those disciplinary problems are so troublesome because they were never disciplined at home. I'm not trying to make a profound statement or anything, but I think that alot of those 15% of kids should be knocked flat on their asses. In my humble opinion. I'm probably wrong, but hey, that's nothing new, right guys?

[The Flash]

Originally posted by SilverKnight
And I, in my opinion, believe a good 15% to 20% of those disciplinary problems are so troublesome because they were never disciplined at home. I'm not saying accusing anything, but I think that alot of those 15% of kids should be knocked flat on their asses. In my humble opinion. I'm probably wrong, but hey, that's nothing new, right guys?

More like around 30 - 40% of those kids. No one disciplines their kids anymore, which I think is piss wrong.

[Maxie Zeus]

The question is like "To wear a coat or not to wear a coat?" The answer depends upon (a) the weather and (b) the inner thermostat of the person going out into it. If it's 110 in the shade then you probably shouldn't wear one. Unless you're Mercury and going out in 110 means you'll court frostbite.

Yes, some people who were spanked turn out fine. Yes, some who were turn out rotten. Yes, some who were would have done better if they hadn't. And, yes, some who weren't spanked would have done better if they had been.

That's because kids come in all sorts of variety. The idea that all children are exactly alike, so that one single method can be infallibly applied to every single one of them, is arrogant. The art of good parenting consists in finding out what kind of kid you have, what kind of discipline he or she needs, and how to mete it out.

Granted, to say this isn't to say anything really interesting, other than "sometimes discipline works and sometimes it doesn't." But when every child's story is different (and I think that fact is on ample display in this thread) generalizations of any kind are next to worthless.

So what was the story of my childhood?

Well, I was subject to both spankings and being put in the corner. And I'll tell you that I far preferred the former to the latter.

Some parents use spankings to cause pain. Not mine. Spankings were preceded by ample warnings, and executed with a quick but deliberate ritualistic dispatch. A display of the wooden spoon, then into the living room, across the knee and one quick rap on the lower cheek. The sound was far more terrible than the pain, which itself was often barely noticeable. That's because the spanking wasn't supposed to hurt, it was supposed to indicate disapproval. It said, "What you did was so heinous that I am going to drop everything for the moment, and give my undivided attention to telling you how pissed I am." And then it was over, with everything restored to normal: No lecture, no repercussions, no nothing. It was as though sin and punishment had both been erased with that one strike.

Going into the corner was a lot more brutal. And why should that be surprising? The corner/room/time out tactic isolated me, both physically and emotionally, from those I depended on. It was terrifying. Not just for an instant, but for a nigh-on eternity (or, what passes for an eternity when you're 4 or 5) love and support and warmth vanished; in fact, there was the implicit threat that they might not return. Instead of giving me their full attention (even a negative attention) my parents turned their backs on me, said they didn't want to look at me, and went on with their business as though happy to be rid of me.

I suppose that some children survive and thrive under that kind of psychological abuse, the way some survive and thrive under what the anti-spanking forces consider physical abuse. But if you want my $0.02, parents who use "time outs" indiscriminately (under the illusion that because they are non-physical they can do no harm) ought to be investigated at least as rigorously as those who use corporal punishment.

[killercroc]

Originally posted by SilverKnight

"They find another way" my ass. And I, in my opinion, believe a good 15% to 20% of those disciplinary problems are so troublesome because they were never disciplined at home. I'm not trying to make a profound statement or anything, but I think that alot of those 15% of kids should be knocked flat on their asses. In my humble opinion. I'm probably wrong, but hey, that's nothing new, right guys?

I can't believe how many times I've heard parents say something along the lines of "hopefully they'll straighten him out when he gets in school." Even though that has become the school's job it shouldn't be. Jeeze, teachers need a raise!

[Calhoun07]

So, Maxie, do you think a wooden paddle should be back in the schools? And not for the purpose of inflicting pain, but for the purpose you spoke of that the wooden spoon was used on you. I do know that there is alot of conern about this, and parents who would go thru the roof if they thought a teacher was being harsh to their children in school, but the way this world is today, I think the teachers have even less power to discipline children than the parents do and have greater chances of being put under scrutinty and losing their jobs if they try to bring discipline into the class room. And I think that discipline (and not necessarily a spanking, it can be done in other ways) is very important in the schools as well as at home. Not that the schools will straighten the kids out where the parents fail, but to learn the yunguns some respect.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
So, Maxie, do you think a wooden paddle should be back in the schools? And not for the purpose of inflicting pain, but for the purpose you spoke of that the wooden spoon was used on you.

The parent-child relationship is different from the teacher-student relationship, so I don't think the same considerations transfer. I don't know what would work in schools. I teach at the college level, so I'm spoiled. :p

[LastSonofKrypton]

No, spanking does not always work. My parents tried it with me and my brothers and all it did was get us to dig our heels in and find new and sneakier ways of misbehaving. Then my dad turned to lecturing us instead. THAT worked! By the time Dad was done, we longed for the good old days of spanking. :rolleyes: But we behaved far better than when we were spanked, but that was the only way to shut dear old Dad up!


Originally posted by kiddiesunshine
spanking works!! it worked for me and my sibs. that's what's wrong with kids today. parents don't want to make them feel bad, as if the parents don't feel bad when their kids disobey. spanking is a last resort, implemented when threats and ultimatums fail.

spank and make it hurt, so kids consider the consequences of their actions. let your kids know you mean business. look them in the eyes when you talk to them. reward the good to promote more. punish bad to promote less. give them the feeling that you are always with them to discourage sneaky behavior.
let them know you love them and that you want them to be the best they can be.