Would A Wonder Woman Animated Series Work?

[Beyond Batman]

Batman started it, Superman continued it... If Wonder Woman received the torch, would her own animated series be a success? What do you guys think? Would you support it? What direction do you think they could take the show into?

[Karkull]

I think it would be kinda cool if they did a Wonder Woman series that ran concurrently with the Justice League series. We could see more of Diana's character development than we were able to see on JL/JLU; we'd see her evolve as a character parallel to her appearances on the prior shows. We'd also get a chance to see more of Diana's enemies (Cheetah, Giganta), along with some that didn't get a chance to appear (Doctor Psycho, Silver Swan).

Just a thought; I'd be for any DCAU Wonder Woman series. The networks would probably complain about a series with a female lead. Sigh.

[Wonderwall]

Id be interested very much in a WW toon. But like alot of DC characters outside of Batman, her rogues are very obscure and no one outside of comic readers would know them( Id forgotten that Giganta was in her rogues gallery ). But if a serious action cartoon could ever be done, id bank on our fav amazonian princess to carry it.

[Cortez2301]

Hell yeah! I'd love to see her in her own series.Maybe they can also focus on her lovelife here.

[Zero X Marquis]

I'd watch it, but after JLU, it would be short lived. The JLUs scope was too big to go back to something focusiing on a single character (unless said character wasn't featured in JLU, or it focuses on a duo... ie Bats and Supes)

Such a thing is a possibility though. Rouges gallery be damned; they need not be known, it makes no difference if they're easily forgotten after the show they appear in. Two things though: It would be directed towards girls (nothing wrong with that), and it would probably be in response for promotion of a motion picture

[Wolf Boy2]

I'd watch it, but after JLU, it would be short lived. The JLUs scope was too big to go back to something focusiing on a single character (unless said character wasn't featured in JLU, or it focuses on a duo... ie Bats and Supes)
IDK... not all JLU eps were "big". Look at "Double Date." Also, they made the Batwoman movie during the run of JL. Another Batman/Superman show would be redundant. I want a Flash series.


Such a thing is a possibility though. Rouges gallery be damned; they need not be known, it makes no difference if they're easily forgotten after the show they appear in. Two things though: It would be directed towards girls (nothing wrong with that), and it would probably be in response for promotion of a motion picture
Isn't there a Wonder Woman movie coming soon? Or is that just a rumor?

[The Weed Of Cri]

It was attempted...once. In the early '90's, Warner Animation planned a series called "Wonder Woman and the Star Riders" in which Wonder Woman became the leader/mentor to a team of Sailor Moon-ish magical girl heroines. The project got ashcanned when the planned tie-in toy line got cancelled by Mattel while the pilot episode of the cartoon was in mid-production. A few of the dolls made it into toy stores and occasionally show up on eBay and doll-collector websites, but of the cartoon, nothing exists except for a few model sheets and production sketches that show Wonder Woman in a slightly-modified version of her costume with a short, pleated skirt and cape.

It should also be noted that Wonder Woman was the only other DC hero to appear in Ruby-Spears Superman series that ran on CBS in 1988.

[Batlaw]

I dont really think so sadly. Perhaps briefly, but not enough to satisfy studios or investor's. The only way it would likely succeed in profit and popularity, would be if it were completely twisted and re-imagined like they tried to do before. Basically turn it into some kind of sapy silly girlie "Rainbow Brite" meets "Jem" freak show... But who honestly would want to see that happen? Not me.

[tb4000]

Once the movie is released, there will be a series. That's how WB does things. It may not be in the Timm universe, but they're going to create one.

[Rebis]

I dont really think so sadly. Perhaps briefly, but not enough to satisfy studios or investor's.
I gotta disagree with this. It could absolutely work, though I'll concede that putting together a WWTAS probably has a few more potential pitfalls than BTAS or STAS ever did, in part because the details of the character's core myth are a little less distinct.

Here's what I mean. When someone says "Batman," there's a core set of myth images that pop into your head. (Now let me make it clear here that I'm not talking about fanboys and fangrrlz, but your average person on the street). Anyone who's remotely familiar with popular culture sees pretty much the same stuff: cape and cowl, Batcave under Wayne Manor, Batmobile, Alfred the Butler, Commissioner Gordon, Gotham City, detective skills, colorful crooks, and probably a Robin somewhere along the line. I think since the late 80s (partly helped out by Tim Burton's films and BTAS), the core myth has actually been expanded upon to specifically include the Joker as well.

When someone says "Superman," the same phenomenon happens: blue suit & red cape, forehead curl, amazing powers, Clark Kent, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olson, the Daily Planet, Kryptonite, Metropolis, saving the world, and probably Lex Luthor. And, I think that, thanks to the TV series, the town of Smallville is now probably part of the mix for most people.

But when you say "Wonder Woman," the core myth list is just smaller: the star spangled suit, maybe the lasso, and maybe Paradise Island/Themiscyra. Ah, and oddly, maybe an invisible jet. But that's about all that's really been cemented in the cultural consciousness about the character. I'm not sure that people outside of fandom even have a clear sense of the broadest coordinates of Wonder Woman's origin.

So WW is at a disadvantage. In the cases of Batman and Superman, the core myths each dictate a "home base" that spectators recognize. This is really important in crafting an episodic series: it helps anchor the viewer for the action. Not only do Batman and Superman each have particular cities to protect, they also have specific lynchpin locations within those cities that serve as the "headquarters" hub for any given story: the Batcave and the Daily Planet.

Wonder Woman has neither of these. Of course, historically, Diana's hometown was Washington DC (which is somehow less fun than the imaginary Gotham or Metropolis). But as the comics have endeavored to divorce the character from her associations with the American military, Diana has roamed. George Perez placed her in Boston. John Byrne moved her to Gateway City. Phil Jimenez got her an apartment in New York. And then Greg Rucka brought her back to DC. And, unless you count John Byrne's short-lived Wonderdrome (later referred to as the Wonderdome), Diana's never had a recognizeable headquarters.

This makes it tough for a creative team because, on some level, viewers feel that an animated series has "gotten it right" when they recognize elements of the core myth. It's kinda like, "Oh yeah, that's totally Batman." But if those elements are themselves not particularly clear, the viewer has a less-pronounced response. It's hard to imagine an "Oh yeah, that's totally Wonder Woman" response from any non-fan. Maybe this is what you're talking about, Batlaw.

But I think this is surmountable. It's a matter of locating what is distinct about Wonder Woman's core myth and playing towards it.

[Nightwing]

It can and should be done. Wonder Woman has a rich history with lots of hardcore fans that would want things just right because of how they've connected with her for so long. Pick one of those people as the master mind for the show and we could totally make a name for her in the Pop Culture world.

Her show could do for her what Batman The Animated Series did for Batman. Before BTAS, the most noted reference that came to Pop Culture's mind when the name "Batman" was heard was the old Adam West series. It's not to say that's bad, but it feels shameful for one not to be aware of the grid, action, and overall brilliance of BTAS.

[A.J]

If powerpuff girls, puffy ami yumi or whatever their name is and Club Winx got their own show why wouldnt WW get her own one? Id say bring it on! Both girls and guys love her, give her a try Id say! :)

[Alex Weitzman]

Just a thought; I'd be for any DCAU Wonder Woman series. The networks would probably complain about a series with a female lead. Sigh.

They wouldn't mind a female lead; there have been a lot of those shows popping up in the last five years. They'd just demand her younger, which would also be a big mistake.

[S.C.B]

They wouldn't mind a female lead; there have been a lot of those shows popping up in the last five years. They'd just demand her younger, which would also be a big mistake.

They could solve that with Wonder Girl, I would think. Either that, or Wonder Woman Beyond, where an elderly Diana takes on a snot nosed punk teenage girl called Terra.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

It should also be noted that Wonder Woman was the only other DC hero to appear in Ruby-Spears Superman series that ran on CBS in 1988.

Yeah. It made her lack of appearance on STAS an even bigger bummer.

I'd watch a WW cartoon, but I'd actually like to see it disconnected from the DCAU. I think JL/U kind of skimped a bit in her origins, so I'd like to see more depth in that aspect. Going back to the non-STAS appearance, I'm sure she would've gotten a detailed origin even better than what we saw in "Secret Origins." Also, since Wonder Woman is tied into Greek mythology, I didn't think being surrounded by freaky aliens created a good environment to showcase the gods. A clean slate could make it easier to make such deities seem more relevant to a modern day setting.

There is indeed a movie being made, to be directed by Joss Whedon. It seems like when the time comes, a cartoon could be released around that time.

[Silly McGooses]

It was attempted...once. In the early '90's, Warner Animation planned a series called "Wonder Woman and the Star Riders" in which Wonder Woman became the leader/mentor to a team of Sailor Moon-ish magical girl heroines. The project got ashcanned when the planned tie-in toy line got cancelled by Mattel while the pilot episode of the cartoon was in mid-production. A few of the dolls made it into toy stores and occasionally show up on eBay and doll-collector websites, but of the cartoon, nothing exists except for a few model sheets and production sketches that show Wonder Woman in a slightly-modified version of her costume with a short, pleated skirt and cape.

It should also be noted that Wonder Woman was the only other DC hero to appear in Ruby-Spears Superman series that ran on CBS in 1988.
Yep, the series got pretty far in before cancellation. You all can read about it in Wonder Woman: The Complete History.

[unknown hero]

I believe a wonder woman series is possible, but chances are it will be done outside of Timm's DC Universe. If "The Batman" is a sign of WB's prospects to continue the DCU in a new format, all it would take is a ww movie to get the wheels turning.

[Gpoliceman]

Unfortunately,

I think the writer's of JL's "Secret Origins" put their foots in their mouths by suggesting that Wonder Woman became Wonder Woman at the exact moment the Justice League was beginning its formation. I think they had the right idea with Hawkgirl, who Batman recognized as being around for some time prior to her standing side-by-side with him and the others as the JL was forming.

But since JL's "Secret Origins" implied that Wonder Woman was inactive/not a superhero prior to JL, if there were a Wonder Woman series, and it was in continuity, you couldn't have it take place BEFORE Justice League (which would be the best scenerio, since both bats and sups had their respective series as background knowledge for the audience prior to JL premiering on tv)

So a Wonder Woman series, in continuity, would either take place DURING JL/JLU, or after it. Either way, you have the same dilemma: If Wonder Woman faced an earth-threatening threat, you JUST KNOW all the fanboys are going to whine: "Why doesn't Wonder Woman call the JL to help her?"

So if a Wonder Woman series were made, and it was in continuity, I would have it take place after "Destroyer", after JLU. Have it explain why Wonder Woman quit the league (so to explain why she wasn't around in Batman Beyond's "The Call"). Maybe she did something simple, like pulling a J'onn and quitting the league just to "discover herself" and "develop her individuality". That would work perfectly. Diana, taking J'onn's example, leaves the league to develop her individuality, so she goes only on solo missions now, never calling for League support. And doing it that way would also remedy the outcries of all those who complained that Diana was never well-developed on JL/JLU. It would shine a light on a subject.

Greg

[Beyond Batman]

Wonder Woman would be a great role model for young girls, breaking the stereotypes of bubblegum chewing, boy crazy, giggling, materialistic teenie boppers (cough*Bratz*cough). Portraying WW as a headstrong, independant woman who strives to be the best would be a geat niche.

[HaagenDas]

Wonder Woman would be a great role model for young girls, breaking the stereotypes of bubblegum chewing, boy crazy, giggling, materialistic teenie boppers (cough*Bratz*cough). Portraying WW as a headstrong, independant woman who strives to be the best would be a geat niche.

Yea, and the outfit she wears is a good model for young girls to have a body to live up to lol.

Who will be playing her in the movie?

[Trevor Balena]

Yea, and the outfit she wears is a good model for young girls to have a body to live up to lol.

Who will be playing her in the movie?
It hasn't been cast yet.

And -- assuming you were being sarcastic above -- why would Wonder Woman's body be any more harmful an "example" for young girls than, say, Batman's was for young boys? Superheroes are idealized physical specimens, but a lot of people seem to have a problem with that.

[Anarky]

I think it would be kinda cool if they did a Wonder Woman series that ran concurrently with the Justice League series. We could see more of Diana's character development than we were able to see on JL/JLU; we'd see her evolve as a character parallel to her appearances on the prior shows. We'd also get a chance to see more of Diana's enemies (Cheetah, Giganta), along with some that didn't get a chance to appear (Doctor Psycho, Silver Swan).

Just a thought; I'd be for any DCAU Wonder Woman series. The networks would probably complain about a series with a female lead. Sigh.

Please, if 4Kids can make money off The Winx Club, then TimeWarner should be able to make a profitable Wonder Woman series. She is THE most recognizable heroine (Batgirl an easy 2nd, Supergirl 3rd). Now that JLU is done, maybe she'll make a cameo appearance on The Batman (S5?)

[Super Girl]

I think it can work. I mean when she had her own eps in JL they were pretty good. It just depends on who writes the story out.

[SuperChicken]

Would love to see it - and maybe we will if Whedon's movie gets off the ground - but if they (WB) don't see the tie-in benefits, it wouldn't happen.

Some of a show's production budget comes from toys. And toy companies traditionally do not like making girl figures.

It sucks, I disagree with their opinion, but they feel girls don't buy action figures (I know tons who do) and boys won't play with female action figures (my son enjoys his Black Canary, WW and Hawkgirl figures).

And so that's one less person who will fight to get the show on the air.

But it could be done well. Maybe one day people will look at animation differently and worry less about the toy sales and more about the quality of story.

Until that day comes, WWTAS will fight an uphill battle.

[Larry]

Yeah. It made her lack of appearance on STAS an even bigger bummer.

I'd watch a WW cartoon, but I'd actually like to see it disconnected from the DCAU. I think JL/U kind of skimped a bit in her origins, so I'd like to see more depth in that aspect. Going back to the non-STAS appearance, I'm sure she would've gotten a detailed origin even better than what we saw in "Secret Origins." Also, since Wonder Woman is tied into Greek mythology, I didn't think being surrounded by freaky aliens created a good environment to showcase the gods. A clean slate could make it easier to make such deities seem more relevant to a modern day setting.

There is indeed a movie being made, to be directed by Joss Whedon. It seems like when the time comes, a cartoon could be released around that time.

I think we wont see one until the movie comes around, in which case, folks from The Batman and TT may end up working on it, and depending on how good it gets done, well depends on how good it is. That could put another show in the "The New DCAU". Still, this might be the only schance of seeing a Wonder Woman: TAS, but we have to hope the movie keeps the character in line. (eg. Batman Begins=The Batman, Blonde Selina in Batman Returns= Blonde Selina in Batman: TAS) If not, well... ouch.

[DisneyBoy]

Why not set a WW: TAS series after JLU? Susan Eisenberg (sp?) is already very comfortable in the part, and there has been a supporting cast introduced (Hippolyta, Ares, Cheetah, Hades), leaving the show's writers with little setting up to do. Just tweak some of the designs where necessary (Ares!) and write good, solo Wonder Woman stories.

Her origins could be covered in a first episode flashback or something. And just because it's a show with girls in it doesn't mean it has to be girl-centric. With plenty of male gods and civilian characters to interact with, as well as past JLU/DCAU guest-stars, I definately think it could work.

And if the network didn't like it, or the ratings weren't high enough and the series went down, wouldn't it still be the coolest two seasons ever?

[HaagenDas]

It hasn't been cast yet.

And -- assuming you were being sarcastic above -- why would Wonder Woman's body be any more harmful an "example" for young girls than, say, Batman's was for young boys? Superheroes are idealized physical specimens, but a lot of people seem to have a problem with that.

You're actually right now I think about it. TV has already had some women in tight fitting outfits in live action and have not had significant complaints. I was just thinking from the whole "Barbie" perspective. A lot of people feel Barbie dolls are bad for young girls because it conditions them to think that is how women should be looking so many who do not do stupid things to their bodies in an attempt to look like Barbie. I just wouldnt want the same with Wonder Woman, but she has been on TV many times including the live action show with Linda Carter and other cartoons...aside from the comics.

My vote for a Wonder Woman lead is Angelina Jolie. Tall, beautiful and can kick ass.

[MKCP_90]

This being my first post, I just want to say that I love this site. I can't believe it took me so long to find it.

Anyway, I would love to see a WWTAS. Unfortunately, as others have already mentioned, this potential project would fight an uphill battle. No matter how you slice it or try to be politically correct, WW would be a female lead. And, this all has to do with marketing, both from the cartoon program itself to the by-products, namely toys and clothing. This means that executives will immediately deem the audience to be young girls.

I know, we can all say how stupid that is, etc., but, we aren't the ones taking the risk financially. Remember, as someone already mentioned, there ain't gonna be a lot of boys clamoring for WW action figures, toys, and definitely not t-shirts or outfits. I hate to admit it, but, superheroes are predominantly a male-thing (NOTE: I didn't say exclusively, so, please, don't jump on me). I can cite a specific example from my childhood. When I was a kid, Mego World's Greatest Super Hero Action Figures were very popular. They made a few female characters (Supergirl, Batgirl, WW, Catwoman, and Invisible Girl). The sales for these were horrible. Ironically, today they are the most sought after Mego figures. But, at the time, they didn't sell.

Another issue is how would WW be portrayed. Would it be in the current Timm mold? A Teen Titans mold? A campy PowerPuff Girls mold? Or somewhere in between. I don't think any of us would want the latter two, but, I think those would be the types to appear to young girls. Now, I could be wrong, but the only recent "tough" super heroine I can think of is Xena. That series had a good run. But, that was a live action and I'm sure a lot of hot-blooded young men watched it. As far as animated ones, I can't think of a single one.

Now, with all that said, one way I think a WWTAS could work is to ALWAYS have a male guest star. Some sort of team-up. I think this would work, especially coming off a popular series like JL/JLU. There are already potential story lines from that series that could be incorporated. But, the episodes could delve more into the Diana character.

Guess I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed and hope I am totally off base. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Beyond Batman]

Just because a woman is the lead character, it doesn't mean it's going to be an uphill battle. Was Buffy, Xena, Charmed, Dark Angel, Power Puff Girls, Sailor Moon, or Aliens uphill battles? Nope!

Wonder Woman is one of the first female superheroes and arguably the most famous. She jumped out of the pages of All Star Comics in 1941, then in 1942, got her own self titled comic making her the first heroine to have her own regular series. Do you think they faced an uphill battle? Had they not taken this bold move, WW wouldn't be the legend she is today next to the ranks of Batman and Superman.

A Wonder Woman animated series would not be an "uphill battle." A Wonder Woman animated series is a "no brainer!!!"

[MKCP_90]

A Wonder Woman animated series would not be an "uphill battle." A Wonder Woman animated series is a "no brainer!!!"

I sure hope you are right. I just can't think of any other animated TV shows with female leads in the same genre as a WW. Powerpuff Girls was more of a campy show. Sailor Moon has a more "girlish" feel to it. I just can't think of anything comparable to a WW animated TV show. I don't know if someone is willing to take that financial risk. I sure hope I am wrong. Now, if a WW motion picture is made, then who knows, especially if it was a blockbuster. That would definitely be a positive for developing a WWTAS.

[SuperChicken]

Just because a woman is the lead character, it doesn't mean it's going to be an uphill battle. Was Buffy, Xena, Charmed, Dark Angel, Power Puff Girls, Sailor Moon, or Aliens uphill battles? Nope!

Wonder Woman is one of the first female superheroes and arguably the most famous. She jumped out of the pages of All Star Comics in 1941, then in 1942, got her own self titled comic making her the first heroine to have her own regular series. Do you think they faced an uphill battle? Had they not taken this bold move, WW wouldn't be the legend she is today next to the ranks of Batman and Superman.

A Wonder Woman animated series would not be an "uphill battle." A Wonder Woman animated series is a "no brainer!!!"

First of all -- yes -- Buffy was an uphill battle. Thats why Whedon sold it to feature first. Xena was a low budget syndicated show. Dark Angel failed. Charmed has barely survived. Power Puff Girls did marginally well, Sailor Moon was an import and Aliens sold on 2 things - a successful first film and sci-fi -- not the strength of the female lead. (not saying Sigorney didn't change the face of female heroes in film -- just saying they didn't sell the movie on her)

And the majority of those were not dependant on toy sales for part of their survival. All of them were live action which is a much different process and aimed not at kids (even PP girls and Sailor Moon seemed to have had a larger older audience than kids) but at adults.

Sorry but your examples hold no water.

And WW's history means nothing to mattel. Again, not aimed at people who would appreciate the history (ie, older viewers ) but at kids who don't care.

I think WW COULD do well -- but you have to convince networks who already don't think they make enough off superhero fare (CN for example) and toy companies who don't believe girls buy toys or boys by female action figures.

Trust me -- I've seen it first hand. Don't kid yourself, WW has a HUGE problem in getting made.

Hope Joss Whedon gets the movie made -- that's probably our only chance.

Sorry to be a negative Nelly but like I said, I've seen this and heard it first hand.

[Beyond Batman]

First off, ALL shows are uphill battles when being pitched to network executives. Name one show that hasn't had its share of obstacles?


First of all -- yes -- Buffy was an uphill battle. Thats why Whedon sold it to feature first. Xena was a low budget syndicated show. Dark Angel failed. Charmed has barely survived. Power Puff Girls did marginally well, Sailor Moon was an import and Aliens sold on 2 things - a successful first film and sci-fi -- not the strength of the female lead. (not saying Sigorney didn't change the face of female heroes in film -- just saying they didn't sell the movie on her)

Buffy the TV series was loosely based from the feature film which is classified as a comedy/horror. It was Whedon that wanted to make Buffy darker and more serious. Xena lasted from 1991 to 2001 and was far from low budget. Charmed actually held the highest rating debut until Smallville came along, and Charmed ran for 8 seasons... what do you mean barely survived?!?!?! So what if Sailor Moon was an import??? It was still successful regardless of it's origin. Dark Angel won a People's Choice Award in 2001 for Favorite Television New Dramatic Series. Power Puff Girls did marginally well??? They lasted from 1998 to 2004. And regarding Aliens... Ripley saved the day everytime.

Let me add Alias to that list, another successful show with a female lead.


(even PP girls and Sailor Moon seemed to have had a larger older audience than kids)

So what!?!?! So did all of the DCAU? The bottom line is ratings.


Sorry but your examples hold no water.

They don't hold water... they hold truth. Giggity giggity goo!!!


Hope Joss Whedon gets the movie made -- that's probably our only chance.

Now this I can agree to.


Sorry to be a negative Nelly but like I said, I've seen this and heard it first hand.

Please elaborate on your "first hand experience?"

[MKCP_90]

Buffy the TV series was loosely based from the feature film which is classified as a comedy/horror. It was Whedon that wanted to make Buffy darker and more serious.

But, as you mention, and this is key, it was based off of a successful motion picture.



Xena lasted from 1991 to 2001 and was far from low budget.

This isn't true. It actually ran from 1995 to 2001. And, remember, this was a spin-off of Hercules. And, part of the allure of this series, as I mentioned in a previous post, was a lot of guys liked to watch Lucy Lawless. And, just as with Hercules, mythology is a great genre.


Charmed actually held the highest rating debut until Smallville came along, and Charmed ran for 8 seasons... what do you mean barely survived?!?!?!

Not gonna dispute you on this one. I only watched maybe a dozen episodes, and I enjoyed them. I just never got into this series.


So what if Sailor Moon was an import??? It was still successful regardless of it's origin.

As mentioned in an earlier post, SM has more of a childish or "girlish" leaning. Much different than the current WW. Do we really want a WW that would be in the SM mold? I hope not.


Dark Angel won a People's Choice Award in 2001 for Favorite Television New Dramatic Series.

But, DA only ran for two seasons, 2000-2002. Not exactly a successful run. I think executives would much rather have a series that was rated in the top 10 in the Nielson's and never got a People's Choice vs one that isn't a blip in the Nielson's but wins PC awards. Also, a note about the PC award...it was won in 2001 for 'Favorite TV NEW Dramatic Series'. So, it was cancelled the next season.


Power Puff Girls did marginally well??? They lasted from 1998 to 2004.

PPG was a fun series. But, no doubt it was targeted towards young girls, despite some of us adults who may have watched it. We were not the target audience. Also, comparing PPG with WW is like comparing Gilligan's Island with Castaway. PPG was a campy super heroine cartoon. WWTAS would not be, at least I hope not.


And regarding Aliens... Ripley saved the day everytime.

But, the original movie Alien was called Alien. It wasn't marketed as "Ripley, a young tough woman, defeats a montrous creature from outer space". No. Rather, she was the lone survivor. I mean, I hadn't even heard of Sigourney Weaver til Alien. Then, you had the sequals, all with 'Alien' in the title. They weren't called 'Ripley...blah, blah, blah'. If you take the 'Alien' out of the show and had Ripley fighting some other creature, I think it is a no-brainer that these sequals would have flopped. It was the Alien people came to see, not Ripley.


Let me add Alias to that list, another successful show with a female lead.

Fully agree here. Can't argue a bit.

The point I was making, and I believe SuperChicken was making, is none of your examples are comparable to a WWTAS. None of those is an animated TV serious action series with a female lead. They are either live action or campy/girlish animated TV shows. With that said, I truly hope we are wrong and you are correct b/c I would LOVE to see this series. But, I think for it to work, it will need to be billed as some sort of teamup or someone to just suck it up and take a financial risk. Guess we'll see in time.

[Dusty]

Yeah it would so work and rock! :)



D.

[Master Moron]

You're actually right now I think about it. TV has already had some women in tight fitting outfits in live action and have not had significant complaints. I was just thinking from the whole "Barbie" perspective. A lot of people feel Barbie dolls are bad for young girls because it conditions them to think that is how women should be looking so many who do not do stupid things to their bodies in an attempt to look like Barbie. I just wouldnt want the same with Wonder Woman, but she has been on TV many times including the live action show with Linda Carter and other cartoons...aside from the comics.

My vote for a Wonder Woman lead is Angelina Jolie. Tall, beautiful and can kick ass.

That's because Barbie dolls look anorexic. I never thought Wonder Woman in Justice League Unlimited looked too skinny. I always thought she looked kind of muscular, which I don't think would be a bad image for girls to have at all. Though, personally, I always thought that Wonder Woman should look a tad bit more muscular.


So what if Sailor Moon was an import??? It was still successful regardless of it's origin.

Don't forget that Sailor Moon bombed horribly before it made it's way to Cartoon Network and became a success.

[Wade Kruse]

I hate when people say she doesn't have a good enough rogues gallery for a TV show. Diana's got plenty of cool villains: Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Psycho, Silver Swan, Ares, Hades, Circe, Medusa...

Yeah, they might not all be "big names"...but neither were Freeze or Ivy once upon a time.

And why does she only have to fight "her" villains anyway? There are plenty of baddies that would make an interesting challenge for WW...why not bring in Killer Frost or Poison Ivy for an episode?

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I hate when people say she doesn't have a good enough rogues gallery for a TV show. Diana's got plenty of cool villains: Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Psycho, Silver Swan, Ares, Hades, Circe, Medusa...

Good point. However, Wonder Woman lacks a signature villain; it's worth mentioning that Joss Whedon isn't going to dig into the books to find the antagonist for the upcoming movie.

I felt that one of JLU's few shortcomings was poor usage of Wonder Woman's villains. While I agree with you, I have to consider that there might be meaning to lackluster WW villain appearances in the 'toon as well as the total absence of them in the upcoming film.

[Wade Kruse]

I would consider Cheetah a "signature villain" but that's just me...

Anyway...yeah...her rogues aren't popular...but that doesn't make them bad.

And how can you say they were used poorly on JLU? Cheetah I'll give you...but Giganta was great, and Ares, Hades, and Circe were all used well, despite the arguable quality of the episodes they starred in.

And I find Whedon's choice to not even try to use an actual WW villain kind of lazy, to be honest. Any one of them has a ton of potential to be really cool. A WW movie deserves a real WW villain, and if Joss seriously can't take a single one of them and make them cool, then he's not a very good writer after all.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

And how can you say they were used poorly on JLU? Cheetah I'll give you...but Giganta was great, and Ares, Hades, and Circe were all used well, despite the arguable quality of the episodes they starred in.

Giganta wasn't used badly, but she was always a goon, never the centerpiece. I thought Ares was not a viable threat at all, just a petty god who wanted his toy and his fun. Circe? She was a buffoon, and Wonder Woman didn't even get to star in the episode featuring Circe, which I think was a terrible, terrible decision. I think Hades had his moments, but both he and Ares got overshadowed by the Annihilator in JLU. He could've been written as a more complex character in "Paradise Lost," but I think they made him too close to a stereotypical, American view of a devil or demon.

Maybe they weren't awful on an absolute scale, but compared to the awesomeness of some other villains, they were pretty cruddy.

[Nightwing]

Sorry to be a negative Nelly but like I said, I've seen this and heard it first hand.

It's cool. From my experience it seems to come with age, so one has to be careful. No biggie.

At the same time, however, let's not let the crummy weights of the world make us think that Wonder Woman wouldn't be able to pull this off. And even though I could use an argument which describes Wonder Woman's iconic stature, Buffy is going to be my example. It looks to me like you're a huge ANGEL fan, judging from your avatar (I made that one too, lol) and caption title.

The argument is simply this: Buffy did it. It was rocky, and it started off with failure because the movie just didn't translate to the screen well, but she pulled it off with the force of 5 nuclear bombs. Nuff said.

All it takes is having the right minds behind it. This thread so far has been talking about making it happen financially, and saying how a movie release that did explosively well would help. That's a huge part of it, because that would get the old white people in charge of all the companies involved. The other part is the creative mind part.

Joss had a vision for Buffy. Joss and David Greenwalt had a vision for Angel. Now we just need someone who has the same drive and will and tallent to do this.

Bruce Timm and Paul Dini & Co team for BTAS.

Glen Murakami and Co for Teen Titans.

The smallest shimmer of hope has the potential to grow into levels of strength that can't even be defined by human limits.

[MKCP_90]

The argument is simply this: Buffy did it. It was rocky, and it started off with failure because the movie just didn't translate to the screen well, but she pulled it off with the force of 5 nuclear bombs. Nuff said.


But, there is a problem with this analogy. Whereas Buffy was a live-action show based off of a movie and shown on The WB, WWTAS would be a cartoon, not based off a movie, and put on CN? Maybe, it would be on The WB or something after school or something. Don't know. Still, seems like there is more contrast than comparison. Please don't get me wrong either...I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THIS SERIES MADE! I just think it would be a big risk for someone to undertake. Just hope I am wrong.

[Master Moron]

Good point. However, Wonder Woman lacks a signature villain; it's worth mentioning that Joss Whedon isn't going to dig into the books to find the antagonist for the upcoming movie.

I felt that one of JLU's few shortcomings was poor usage of Wonder Woman's villains. While I agree with you, I have to consider that there might be meaning to lackluster WW villain appearances in the 'toon as well as the total absence of them in the upcoming film.

Wow, I just lost a lot of respect for Joss Whedon. You'd figure from looking at what comic book movies succeed and what comic book movies fail that Joss Whedon would realize that it's a good bet to mostly follow the comics. I mean, to not even use a villain from the comic books is ridiculous. I mean, imagine if the Spider-man movies didn't have Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus? Imagine if X-Men didn't have Magneto and Mystique? I mean, without any villains from the comic books you end up with something like Catwoman, which completely bombs. And I'm not even saying they have to use a well known villain. I mean, Batman Begins used Ra's Al Ghul, who isn't very well known among non-fans, and they made it work.

[Beyond Batman]

Wow, I just lost a lot of respect for Joss Whedon. You'd figure from looking at what comic book movies succeed and what comic book movies fail that Joss Whedon would realize that it's a good bet to mostly follow the comics. I mean, to not even use a villain from the comic books is ridiculous. I mean, imagine if the Spider-man movies didn't have Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus? Imagine if X-Men didn't have Magneto and Mystique? I mean, without any villains from the comic books you end up with something like Catwoman, which completely bombs. And I'm not even saying they have to use a well known villain. I mean, Batman Begins used Ra's Al Ghul, who isn't very well known among non-fans, and they made it work.

LOL

[Beyond Batman]

For the record, if WW is in the hands of Joss Whedon, I'll sleep well at night. That guy is an awesome writer. BTW, Whedon is writing the movie, not directing it for clarification.

[Krypton_Knight]

It could definitely work. Some characters (such as Cheetah) could probably stand revamping.

Coopting Vandal Savage into Diana's rogue's gallery would be the icing on the cake.

KK

[Trevor Balena]

BTW, Whedon is writing the movie, not directing it for clarification.
He's doing both, actually.

[Wade Kruse]

When I first heard Whedon was writing the movie, I jumped for joy.

But no classic WW villains? Screw him. Inexcusable.

I won't be surprised at all if the movie is nowhere close to as faithful to the source material as stuff like Batman Begins. The feeling I get from most of Whedon's comments on the movie is that he'll be changing stuff at his leisure. That doesn't make me happy.

[Nightwing]

But, there is a problem with this analogy. Whereas Buffy was a live-action show based off of a movie and shown on The WB, WWTAS would be a cartoon, not based off a movie, and put on CN? Maybe, it would be on The WB or something after school or something. Don't know. Still, seems like there is more contrast than comparison. Please don't get me wrong either...I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THIS SERIES MADE! I just think it would be a big risk for someone to undertake. Just hope I am wrong.

Oh there's no doubt that creating an animated show is very different from creating a live action show, in terms of physical aspects (directing, producing). That wasn't my topic. I was referencing the points made about the contrast between a show with a female lead, and one with a male lead, and how female leads have more to overcome.

On a more general scope, though, the analogy fits with the point I made in my other post: get the right minds behind it. Joss created Buffy from the ground up, with a passion and adesire to do it. He felt sorry for the pretty blonde girl in all the horror movies that never got a chance. Now, he thought, there should be one who could break the precedent, and fight back. Tried it with a movie. No good. Try it in a show instead. Bingo.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Giganta wasn't used badly, but she was always a goon, never the centerpiece. I thought Ares was not a viable threat at all, just a petty god who wanted his toy and his fun. Circe? She was a buffoon, and Wonder Woman didn't even get to star in the episode featuring Circe, which I think was a terrible, terrible decision.

Well said. Personally, I think Dr. Psycho works great as Wonder Woman's "arch nemesis". He hasn't made a DCAU appearance, but in recent DC comics, he has proven himself to be one of the major foes. His personality is unique (which is what helped the Bat villains gain so much popularity), and his powers are versatile (much more so than, say, Giganta's).

But the villains aren't an issue, getting the series off the ground is (I'd prefer a JL/U-era WW, which could work either about her first leaving Themyscira or an ambassador who can't call in her teammates for diplomatic reasons). The theme song of the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman series firmly stated that the world was ready for her. We need that kind of certainty again (here's hoping for a great movie!)

[Knight]

It could work but Im not sure. Ive never really liked her world outside of the Justice League comics and the whole Gods thing doesnt intrest me too often.

That said I think Timm and Co could make it work. They have some good foundations started in JL that they could work off of. You have her feud with her father Hades, they could add a little more to Cheetah to make her more meancing to Diana and then there is Ares trying to start wars that she could be trying to prevent. As long as they had the JLU, Superman and Batman occationaly guest star I could get into it with ease. Ares is one of those who has big plans. I think you could work a 13 ep season around that and have it be pretty good.

[SuperChicken]

Buffy the TV series was loosely based from the feature film which is classified as a comedy/horror. It was Whedon that wanted to make Buffy darker and more serious.
Whedon actually wrote the original as well. I'm not debating he had a different vision - but it took a small network looking for a new demographic to even take a chance on it -- and they kicked Buffy to the curb when it got expensive as well.

And it never garned very good ratings - it did well for The WB -- but it was never a huge hit. It was a cult hit. Networks don't look for cult hits.


Xena lasted from 1991 to 2001 and was far from low budget.
first as has been pointed out, you have your run wrong. second it was a spinoff. third -- lucy lawless. It was a huge hit with young males and gay women. Not that I have a problem with either - but is that your core audience for CN or kids WB? No, it isn't. It was a cult hit. Not what producers and programming execs look for.



Charmed actually held the highest rating debut until Smallville came along, and Charmed ran for 8 seasons... what do you mean barely survived?!?!?!
Again, your talking WB ratings and that won't impress any producer at any other network, ever. It was, again, never more than a cult hit. I never understood how it survived and EVERY YEAR they threatened to cancel it. Every. Single. Year.


So what if Sailor Moon was an import??? It was still successful regardless of it's origin.
It was cheap. You can buy it - like pokemon and every other piece of overseas animation, for next to nothing. Compared to actually producing a show, it's peanuts. It's similiar to why CN is running second run Legion of Superheroes shows after they air on Kids WB -- it costs them a fraction of the cost of production. Sheap, cheap cheap. A WWAS would not be cheap. Not if they did it well.

Dark Angel won a People's Choice Award in 2001 for Favorite Television New Dramatic Series.
Thats.... that's -- sorry can't stop laughing.... THAT'S your arguement?
Yeah, executives LOVE that award. More than emmy's, big ratings. That's why that series was killed.:shrug:



Power Puff Girls did marginally well??? They lasted from 1998 to 2004.
Longevity does not equal success, although really I understated PPG - it did well for CN while it lasted and was a fun show.


And regarding Aliens... Ripley saved the day everytime.
Aliens. It's in the title. It was about ALIENS. You could argue the third and fourth movies were promoted around Ripley, but not the second and sure as heck not the first. Aliens changed the way women were portrayed in horror and action films, sure, but that's not how it was sold.


Plus it's a feature film, not a half hour cartoon. Different rules, different world. Apples and oranges.


add Alias to that list, another successful show with a female lead.
Again, as much as I like the show, it doesn't work to support your arguement. It never had more than decent ratings, it lost audience every year and was reduced to what was essentially a midseason replacement this last year.



So what!?!?! So did all of the DCAU? The bottom line is ratings.

Which none of your examples really had, not in the way the industry looks for. (And while the DCAU courted a male demographic whether you like to believe it or not, WW would not, not in a way Mattel would want) The shows you mentioned had ratings that would be great ratings for cartoons - but any live action ratings you can cut down by more than half when it comes to animation, given that the vast majority of the country doesn't look at animation as anything more than kids fare. Which sucks, and hopefully will change but is the reality for now.


They don't hold water... they hold truth. Giggity giggity goo!!!
Or... not. Listen, we're talking animation, not live action -- two very different worlds. And with a female live action lead you can still sell female oriented products - the same ones they sell during 'Grey's Anatomy' or 'Desperate Housewives'. Those advertisers consider a female (esp. young female) audience attractive.

But in animation, ad revenue isn't all that good and hard to come by (that's what hurt Kids WB and one reason we have Sat only now, rather than five days a week - syndicated stations make more money playing Dr. Phil than TT). So you need toy sales. And manufacturers - right or wrong - don't think girls buy toys in volume or boys buy toys made of female heroes.

It's why it takes forever for a Hawkgirl figure to come out, but you still get Flash and Superman with her in a three pack - they really think kids won't buy it otherwise. It's crazy, but true.


Please elaborate on your "first hand experience?"

Well, not that it's relevant but I've worked in both live action and animation, on features and episodic TV and while I don't feel the need to toss names out to justify my experiance, let's just say it wasn't cable access and leave it at that.

Suffice to say I've seen both the the crew and creative sides enough to know that unless you have a smash hit, huge ratings grabber example I haven't seen, executives will tell you mostly what I just did.

If you want to convince me don't bring me cult hits and cheaply bought imports.

I honestly think if BT or Murakami wanted to, they might make it work - they both have the vision (and BT has McDuffie who usually has a real grasp of the mythos of a character - see The Question for a good example) to make it work.

But it'd be a real fight just to get it on the air. Which again, sucks. And again, is reality, sorry to say.

[Jazzie]

I think a WW series would work and is well worth the try. Especially if its in DCAU continuity.