"Batman: The Killing Joke" Talkback (Spoilers) [Archive]

James Harvey

10-13-2002, 04:05 PM

Discuss this classic Batman story!

BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE

http://wf.toonzone.net/jimharvey/comic/t-joke.jpg (http://wf.toonzone.net/jimharvey/comic/joke.jpg)

Written by: Alan Moore
Art by: Brian Bolland

For the first time the Joker's origin is revealed in this tale of insanity and human perseverance. Looking to prove that any man can be pushed past his breaking point and go mad, the Joker attempts to drive Commissioner Gordon insane. After shooting and permanently paralyzing his daughter Barbara (a.k.a. Batgirl), the Joker kidnaps the commissioner and attacks his mind in hopes of breaking the man. But refusing to give up, Gordon maintains his sanity with the help of Batman in an effort to best the madman.

Comments? What are your thoughts?

Brian Cruz

10-13-2002, 06:15 PM

Truly one of the most definitive Batman stories.

rggkjg1

10-13-2002, 06:24 PM

i just got this book today. only one word can describe the killing joke: word. this story is amazing, well written and great art. im glad i got see the joker's origin, i didn't see that one coming. and batman, he laughed. i didnt see that coming either.

Daredevil_2003

10-13-2002, 06:50 PM

I loved it. I don't like how Batman laughed at the end, though, I just don't get it. I mean, what in the hell would posess him to laugh!? I fail to see what was so funny. Was it Barbara being shot in the spine and then raped? or was it Jim's kidnapping and being carted around naked while enduring Joker's sick mental and physical torture?

rggkjg1

10-13-2002, 07:23 PM

i think batman was laughing because the joker said he did not want to work with batman to become rehabilitated. joker tells his joke and laughs with batman. then batman beats the crap out of him for what he did in the comic. when batman said lets work together to rehabilitate you, he was pretty much saying i wont beat you up if you work with me. then when batman was laughing, he was saying you had your chance.

well, thats the way i see it.

Patrick Bateman

10-13-2002, 08:18 PM

"You'd turn it off when I was halfway across." :D

I can see why Batman would laugh. That joke was funny! This is truly one of the top 5 Batman stories ever.

Marc

10-13-2002, 08:30 PM

One of the best Batman stories ever. Alan Moore wrote a great story, but Brian Bolland's art was what really shined.

If you ask me, Batman laughed at the end because he realized what a pathetic individual the Joker really was. Batman saw that his arch-nemesis isn't some brilliant criminal mastermind, but just a hopeless psychopath.

MattL.

10-13-2002, 08:34 PM

I loathe this turd of a graphic novel.

It was all just an excuse to violate Gordon and gratuitously destroy Batgirl. Shock value disguised as intellectual writing. Oh thank you Alan Moore for coming down from on high and gracing us with your truth that Batgirl is some kind of silly idea that must be grinded into the blood and dirt. (Unless of course shes a ninja girl, oh thats ok then) Not that I'm disputing any merit the character has in her Oracle incarnation, but to me shes Batgirl and this thing pompusly raped it all.

Easily one of the worst comics showcasing the worst apsectsof the modern era. For all the knocks that people can give Silver Age or Bronze Age (yes theres alot of silly stuff) this is proof that grim n' gritty can be just as dumb as 52 flavors of Kryptonite.

I dont know the man personally so I have no basis for genuine hatred of him. However, when it comes to his work I have never, and I will never, ever forgive him for what he did to Batgirl.

With all due respect, [explitive deleted-Cal].

rggkjg1

10-13-2002, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by MattL.
I loathe this turd of a graphic novel.

It was all just an excuse to violate Gordon and gratuitously destroy Batgirl.

hmmm. at least barbara didnt get killed.

Marc

10-13-2002, 11:25 PM

One thing you have to realize Matt, is that we can’t know which plot points are Moore’s and which are from the editor. For all we know Alan was strongly against doing what he did to Barbara, but the editor’s will is law. But if we’re going to blame Alan for what he did, then shouldn’t we blame Gerry Conway for killing Gwen Stacy? She was the greatest thing that ever happened to Peter Parker. Conway destroyed an innocent, wholesome girl and made Peter an angry, brooding vigilante. Or how about Jim Starlin? He murdered Jason Todd. Joker may have delivered the killing blow, but Starlin ordered the hit (or was it the public?). The editor makes the rules. They’re not always wise or fair, but they are the glue that holds a book together.

And should we be angry with Alan for what he did recently to Mina Murray in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? It was the attack on Barbara all over again. A helpless girl defiled by a sadistic madman. But it’s fiction, and more importantly, it advances the plot. To quote Barbara, the Joker wanted “to prove a point.” The “destruction” of Batgirl served a purpose: to push Batman over the edge, and it worked.

But all this brings us to our “other” argument: REALISM! Bad things happen to good people. If you ask me, Barbara was a useless character as Batgirl, but has found a new existence and a new purpose as Oracle. That brings up another thing. In my opinion, in the Batman universe, all things must revolve around Batman. Robin, Alfred, Batgirl, Joker, etc, they’re just props basically. They’re all part of what Batman is, but ultimately they’re all expendable.

Anyway, I’m rambling, and I fear we might drift off topic. Do we really want to destroy this thread like we did to “Ultimate Marvel”? Let’s continue in that other thread I started last week if you want. Unless rggkjg1 doesn't mind us continuing here?

- Cap

Russkafin

10-13-2002, 11:34 PM

If you guys liked The Killing Joke, I can't reccomend Moore's "Watchmen" highly enough. If you haven't read Watchmen yet, check your local comic store or Barnes and Noble and see if you can find the trade, I can say it is probably one of the best things I've ever read, comic book or otherwise.

Sugar Daddy

10-14-2002, 12:48 AM

I read the comic, it is a very interesting read. Good stuff.

TimTwoFace

10-14-2002, 01:41 AM

I think the story is one of the best Batman stories ever, and is easily the definitive Joker story. We finally get a good look at his psychosis and can almost feel sorry for the ol' koot.

Driving Batman and Gordon mad? Great idea - that describes the Joker's M.O. totally. He doesn't kill because he likes to kill - he kills cuz it's a joke to him and he wants to test the two people he actually does respect to some degree (Batman and Gordon).

As for what happened to Batgirl - at the time, it was a HUGE deal, just as killing off Robin was (which happened the same year, in 1988). In retrospect, I think it made her a stronger and better character - it defined her. I'm still out to lunch as to whether she was actually raped in the story, though - she was raped of her dignity, yes, but I don't know if it was actually physically done. Of course, we'll never know - and that possibility makes the Joker all the more dispicable.

-Tim

Zoddman

10-14-2002, 03:02 AM

I like this book very, very much with one very large detail:

I hate, hate, HATE! Joker's origin in this book.

Sorry, out of any single villain in the Batman, or any comic universe, the Joker is NOT the one I want to feel sympathy for. Making him an innocent turned insane by terrible circumstanses really rubbed me the wrong way. This is a character that has ruined hundreds upon hundreds of innocent lives, and I find out he use to be a nice guy?

Sorry, not gonna buy that. Even before he was the Joker, he should've been screwed up, shoul've been slightly to the left of reality in his thoughts. While in school, he should have been doodling pictures of people being Murdered and contorted in the most sickening ways possible. He should have been killing dogs and cats and chickens in the street for the sheer animalistic thrill. He should have murdered his parents and joined the Gotham City crime syndicates.

I don't want to feel sympathy for the devil, I want him to remain the villain I love to hate.

TimTwoFace

10-14-2002, 01:09 PM

Ed Liu

10-14-2002, 01:35 PM

Howdy,

Originally posted by Zoddman
I don't want to feel sympathy for the devil, I want him to remain the villain I love to hate.

Just a few riffs on that:

1. Is the origin still official DC/Batman canon? I thought it was presented as one possible origin. For all we know, the whole thing was a persecution complex the Joker dreamed up himself. Personally, I much prefer this origin to the "unnamed gangland enforcer" one presented in the Mask of the Phantasm movie.

2. Understanding what kind of thing creates a monster doesn't exonerate them when they do something horrible. Best example I can come up with for that is the Unabomber -- I actually agree with a number of points in his long, ranting manifesto, but that in no way excuses the fact that he killed and maimed many people using explosives sent through the mail. Just 'cuz the Joker was some poor schlub trying to get ahead doesn't mean it's OK for him to go on mass killing sprees or shoot librarians.

3. (This may take a while) There's two parts to this. The whole issue starts with Bats visiting the Joker in Arkham, telling him that "We're going to kill each other someday," and trying to take some step to prevent that from happening. At the end, Batman tells the Joker something like, "Gordon's fine. Maybe it was just you all along." What that tells me is that 1) underneath that ghastly exterior and the horrific actions, there IS still a human being, but 2) that human being is just as responsible for his actions as anybody else (except apparently several of our elected officials, but that's a matter for another thread :)). The origin sequence pulls the neat trick of humanizing the Joker, while still holding him ultimately responsible for his own actions.

One of the best sequences in a comic ever:

Panel 1: "We're sorry, but your wife was heating up a baby bottle and..well, it overloaded and she died."

Panel 2: Nothing.

Panel 3: "What?"

I think it was that sequence that made me truly recognize the power of a wordless panel, and how comics play with time far differently than any other medium. I think the only writer that can use wordless panels more effectively is Dave Sim in Cerebus.

I never really liked the Laughing Batman ending, either, but the Joker's joke does have a point. A guy dressed up like Dracula is throwing out a rope of sanity to an insane, homicidal clown. The laughter might just be Batman's (or perhaps Alan Moore's) way of accepting the full insanity of the situation.

Is it grim-n-gritty, representational of all that was wrong with the comics of the 90's? Yeah, probably. However, I'll take this comic over just about every other one out there that used twice the violence the none of the intelligence, and where the sadistic violence to a character had no motivation other than "being cool" or selling comics.

-- Ed/Ace

Leaping Larry Jojo

10-14-2002, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Zoddman
I like this book very, very much with one very large detail:

I hate, hate, HATE! Joker's origin in this book.

Sorry, out of any single villain in the Batman, or any comic universe, the Joker is NOT the one I want to feel sympathy for. Making him an innocent turned insane by terrible circumstanses really rubbed me the wrong way. This is a character that has ruined hundreds upon hundreds of innocent lives, and I find out he use to be a nice guy?

Sorry, not gonna buy that. Even before he was the Joker, he should've been screwed up, shoul've been slightly to the left of reality in his thoughts. While in school, he should have been doodling pictures of people being Murdered and contorted in the most sickening ways possible. He should have been killing dogs and cats and chickens in the street for the sheer animalistic thrill. He should have murdered his parents and joined the Gotham City crime syndicates.

I don't want to feel sympathy for the devil, I want him to remain the villain I love to hate.

I disagree. From most accounts, the sickest criminals tend to be just like him. They were often quiet, polite and frustrated as youths...then one day, they just snap. The Joker *was* screwed up as a young man (read the dialogue again--he wasn't really that nice), and we don't even know what happened to him before he got married. My assessment of the Joker is that he was a frustrated young guy who just snapped. Is that an excuse for his later behaviour? No. But it is fairly realistic. I believe that ANYONE, ANYONE under the right circumstances can fly off the handle. You, me, Oprah Winfrey, whomever.

And we also must ask, was this really his origin? This origin was seen through the Joker's memories. He's a crackpot--maybe the whole narrative was a joke to him. Who knows?

As for Moore's misogynistic tendencies, well, I don't know. He's had a habit of "dirtying" his female characters, (See Watchmen, League of Gents, From Hell, etc,.) even though he's a married man with a generally normal young daughter. I would say that it's a plot device he tends to trot out habitually, but not necessarily a show of hatred for female characters. I think Frank Miller tends to be just as bad in this case.

Barbara didn't get raped, I don't think. The point was that he took pictures of her to drive the Commish insane, which he failed to do in the end.

Why did Batman laugh at his joke? Well, it wasn't a knee-slapping joke--in fact, it was a pretty grim joke. When the Joker says, "You'd turn it off halfway across," he means that you can't trust anyone, even someone who you think to be your best friend. Batman can certainly relate to this. When has Bats ever totally trusted anyone? (other than Alfred?) NEVER. He doesn't even totally trust Robin half the time. Secondly, this scene alludes to the fact that they're BOTH nutty. Batman is a nut. No sane human would act the way he would. No sane person would be as obsessed as he is. The only thing is, out of tragedy, Bats chose to save people, while the Joker chose to not care anymore and kill. Like Ace said, Batman trying to help the Joker would be like a nut trying to help a nut! Get it? Hahahaha! :D

Joker85

10-14-2002, 06:01 PM

This is a fantastic story and one of the best Joker stories ever told! Parts of this novel are very disturbing, and creepy. What happens to Gordon and Babs is about as chilling as I've ever seen a comic come. I loved seeing Joker's origin told this way. He was a victim of circumstance,but that really doesn't make me feel sorry for him. He may be crazy but he's responsible for what he does. I've often wondered if perhaps it was the deathof his wife and unborn child that pushed him over the edge. That maybe he wasn't crazy until that night, but the emotional loss did as much damage as the acid. I definitely think that this comic defined Barbara Gordon and in the longrun made her a much better character. And I love how it happened. All those times she put her life on the line with Batman in costume and walked away...and she gets shot answering her father's door. This is truly one of the most moving and chilling comics ever written!

Zoddman

10-14-2002, 06:32 PM

In response to everybody who responded to my post:

I understand that's why you like this origin, that it makes him all the more "realistic" but the man obviously hadn't done anything morally wrong until AFTER he became the Joker. Joker should've been a bully, a snob, and a little bit obsessive before he finally snapped. It just made the character all the more interesting because, frankly, there was NOTHING you could relate to him on.

I already understand the actions, and am sympathetic, of villains like Mr. Freeze, Two-Face, Harley Quinn, and Catwoman. I don't WANT to understand the ultimate comic-book villain.

P.S. While the "origin" of the Joker in this isn't technically canon, most people don't take that into consideration.

Leaping Larry Jojo

10-14-2002, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Zoddman
In response to everybody who responded to my post:

I understand that's why you like this origin, that it makes him all the more "realistic" but the man obviously hadn't done anything morally wrong until AFTER he became the Joker. Joker should've been a bully, a snob, and a little bit obsessive before he finally snapped. It just made the character all the more interesting because, frankly, there was NOTHING you could relate to him on.

True. It kinda takes some of that aura out of him--I don't think they should have showed his origin at all--at least not like this. They could have hinted at parts of his origin through people he knew, and conversations, but I think just laying it all out might have been a mistake.

That said, I thought it was still a very good read.

John Delaney

10-14-2002, 09:07 PM

When a person is recalling an event in their life, rarely do they portray themselves as a villian. Even the most heinous acts are rationalized in the human psyche. There's a great quote from "The Talented Mr. Ripley" where the lead character says something like "Bad people never see themselves as bad..."
I 'm sure the worst serial killers in the world will tell you they had a reason for doing the horrible things they do, and so too with the Joker.
Alan Moore told this story as the Joker recalling it.
a) He's a maniac and can hardly br relied upon to give a objective telling of the events.
b) He says himself "...sometimes I remember it ONE way, sometimes ANOTHER... if I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"
What makes this work so great is the triumph of wills portrayed. Even as Barbara Gordon is lying in a hospital bed her first concern is not herself but her father and stopping the Joker. No matter what horrors Jim Gordon is exposed to he still demands Batman bring the Joker in "by the book" to show him that the right way works.
No matter how badly Batman wants to break the Joker in half for what he has done, he stops himself and offers the Joker one last chance at redemption. I believe the laugh at the end is Batman's first true glimpse into the mind of the Joker, and for just that instant he knows the Joker better than he ever had. Answering his earlier question "How can two people hate each other so much without actually knowing each other."
That's what I got out of it anywa
Cheers
John

jm5150bc

10-16-2002, 11:25 PM

Definitely a Top 5 of all time Bat-Tale as far as I'm concerned...

Great Story & Pacing, Stunning Artwork...

Really hammers home the Yin/Yang of Batman and The Joker,
and for those who still didn't get it, there was that wonderful playing card on the back cover (and what I wouldn't give to own that original art) !! "One bad day..."

I don't know about this being "canon" as far as the Joker's origin, especially being told from the Joker's recollection, but it was certainly an interesting take on the well-established "Red Hood" origin story.

As far as the Gordons go, I certainly don't want to say that what happened to Barbara was in any way necessary, but the whole scheme really showed the unadulterated depravity of the Joker...
and, in my opinion, Barbara is certainly more interesting now than she ever was as Batgirl... She was forced to find out who she really is, as opposed to being a "shadow" of Batman...

And Ace, I'm with you 100% as far as your interpretation of Batman laughing at the joke at the end... At first, I was thrown a little off guard by it, but almost immediately it made perfect sense to me, and really stands up there as ironically being one of the darkest moments of the book, cloaked in a happy ending... Brilliant.

I think I'll go dig this one out and re-visit it again, for about the 1000th time... I don't think I'll ever get tired of it.

James

10-22-2002, 09:24 AM

Been a while since I read it, but I think it rates up with the top five Batman GN. If not the best (that or DKR)..

The shocking and brutal attack on Barbara, with no punches pulled.

The look into the Joker's psyche. A reminder however amusing the Joker is as a character there is something deeply uncomfortable about him. Made worse by glimpses into a possible past. A tragic character history just adds to the layers..

The ending - the most memorable ending in GN. I don't often remember gags, however the last few frames and dialogue are burned onto my brain.

Finally, the crisp linework of Bolland. A fantastic old school illustrator. Every page is perfect, even those images that you don't really want to see. It would have been easy to have over played or dumbed up Gordon's ride through his daughter's agony, but the sensible and graphic depiction is again, a vivid an memorable moment in comic history.

'Comic' suddenly sounds like the wrong term to use...

Terminatah

01-16-2003, 04:29 PM

I hope it's OK that I'm bringing this thread back. I just read this thing.

Originally posted by MattL.
I loathe this turd of a graphic novel.

It was all just an excuse to violate Gordon and gratuitously destroy Batgirl. Shock value disguised as intellectual writing. Oh thank you Alan Moore for coming down from on high and gracing us with your truth that Batgirl is some kind of silly idea that must be grinded into the blood and dirt. (Unless of course shes a ninja girl, oh thats ok then) Not that I'm disputing any merit the character has in her Oracle incarnation, but to me shes Batgirl and this thing pompusly raped it all.

I dont know the man personally so I have no basis for genuine hatred of him. However, when it comes to his work I have never, and I will never, ever forgive him for what he did to Batgirl.Like some said earlier, it's the plausibility of her near-death that gives it such great impact. She went out every night and constantly risked her life, but Joker demonstrated how simply and quickly it could all end.

Originally posted by Zoddman
In response to everybody who responded to my post:

I understand that's why you like this origin, that it makes him all the more "realistic" but the man obviously hadn't done anything morally wrong until AFTER he became the Joker. Joker should've been a bully, a snob, and a little bit obsessive before he finally snapped. It just made the character all the more interesting because, frankly, there was NOTHING you could relate to him on. That's what makes the Joker's psyche so interesting. That he was such a normal guy before his entire life turned to crap. But just because he wasn't evil to begin with doesn't mean that a big ball of insanity wasn't already building in his brain. Clearly, this guy had led a life of failure and hardship, but he was suppressing it, putting on a happy face, and telling jokes. If anything, this makes the character even more easy to relate to.

Plus, as John mentioned, memory is subjective anyway.

I've been looking for The Killing Joke for a while. I finally read it at a bookstore, and I thought it was great. It seemed pretty short, but that's probably because I had recently read Watchmen. In fact, there were some things that reminded me of Watchmen, like the old picture of Batman and his sidekicks (similar to the recurring Minutemen photo), and that whole "8 in 1 go mad" thing. The general storytelling style was exactly like Watchmen too, so it was a fun read.

Joker's joke at the end is only funny when you consider the parallelism between it and Batman's offer to help him. Joker is not just saying that both he and Batman are insane; he is equating Batman's rehabilitation offer to the flashlight beam walkway. They talk about it like it's a tangible possibility, but you'd have to be insane to try it. This deeper meaning is most likely what caused Batman to laugh, but I'm sure Moore didn't intend to provide a definitive reason for his laughter -- everything is right, if it makes sense to the reader.

Moore really gives you a lot to analyze.

-Terminatah

Spastic Minnow

01-16-2003, 05:28 PM

Jokert on his origin:

To Batman: "I mean, what is it with you? What made you what you are? Girlfriend killed by the mob, maybe? Brother carved up by some mugger? Something like that, I bet. Something like that . . . Something like that happened to me, you know. I . . . I'm not exactly sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another . . . If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice! Ha ha ha!"

I love that, it tells you that his story may just be how he sees it at the time. It also makes fun of the fact that the Joker has had so many personalities over the years, and the fact that he has had so many different origins.

To find some different takes on his origin and other freaky Joker stories search out The Further Adventures of the Jokeran old paperback with about 20 short stories that was published around the time of the Burton movie. Some really haunting stuff there. Unfortunately I think it's out of print. (However, The Further adventures of the Batman really stinks)

Ms. Kitty

01-16-2003, 06:20 PM

about the art, can someone post an image or two so i can get a little taste of it please. Or post a site that has art from that book. :)

Nightwing1221

01-16-2003, 11:56 PM

I.M.O. the best part of this book was it's realism, symbolism, the relationships, and the insights into the psyche.

By Joker telling his origin we got a look into his warped sense of reality. Did I feel sorry for him? No. Why? Because I knew it was his version something he made up to help him deal with the things he's done.

The fact that Barbara was shot was great. Batgirl did not get shot here like most say, Barbara did.

Which is why it meant so much. It made us remember that she is human even though she wore the mask and fought crime at the end of it all she was human.

If she had been shot as Batgirl we would have cared, but that is a hazard of her idenity, a risk she was willing to take.

Now her being shot as Barbara at home for no reason is real. It could have been your mother, daughter, sister, cousin, friend, or you that answered the door and had some maniac shoot you, for no reason but his own amuesment.

That is why this story has such an impact on us it makes us relate to her. To see her as Barbara and not Batgirl.

Joker stripping them naked was a way of showing us how he stripped them of everything. Their dignity, their pride, their loved ones, their sanity and their very sense of security they lost a piece of each of those that night.

He might not have sexually raped Barbara which I don't think he did but he did mentally and emotionally rape her and Jim. Which to him is more satisfying.

It showed Batman's and Joker's relationship.

Gordon and Joker.

Barbara as an extention of Batgirl with Joker.

Jim and his daughter.

Gordon and Batman.

And Bruce and Barbara. I liked that she did not call him Batman but Bruce. Another way to show them as real people not just costumes.

I agree that the joke in itself is another metaphor. The two lunatics.. him and Batman.
The beam of light.. the extended hand of help.

The shutting off of the light.. Batman realizing he can't be helped and stopping.
And how he doesn't trust Batman.

As far as Batman laughing goes. I see this as him realizing that the Joker is too far gone, and maybe even a little pathetic. More of a "I pity you" laugh.

HelloKittyKat

01-17-2003, 12:39 AM

I love this story beyond what I can properly express with words. I still enjoy it every time I read it (which i can not say about DKR, which I bought at the same time years ago). Alan Moore and Brian Bolland are the best at their respective tasks, and they pulled though and topped my expectations.

By the way, I feel Bolland's Joker as drawn in the story is [/i]THE [/i] definitive modern version of the madman. That's how he should always be drawn.

Spastic Minnow

01-17-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Ms. Kitty
about the art, can someone post an image or two so i can get a little taste of it please. Or post a site that has art from that book. :)

This guy's site, The Jokers Realm (http://randomthought.addr.com/joker/) does an excellent job of using text and pictures, mostly from The Killing Joke, to provide a profile of The Joker.

James

01-18-2003, 08:20 PM

Interesting site. Looked great, until he chooses an obscure font which he remedies for those without by offering text in the dreadful 'comics sans ms' font. Ugh. I hate that font! Still a rather unique look on the Joker.

I need to get my hands on a copy of TKJ! I haven't read it in years!

finster

01-20-2003, 07:13 AM

I loved 'Year One' when it came out.
'The Killing Joke' is the book that soured me on 'grim and gritty'.

I had the opportunity to meet Dick Sprang and Alex Toth in the late '80's- early '90's.
These comic legends had the bizarre idea that Batman should be heroic and his adventures inspiring.
I stand with them in the opinion that 'The Killing Joke' is repulsive.

Clayface

01-20-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by finster

These comic legends had the bizarre idea that Batman should be heroic and his adventures inspiring.
I stand with them in the opinion that 'The Killing Joke' is repulsive.

Batman (as well as Babs and Jim) are incredibly heroic in 'The Killing Joke' - its the things that happen to them that are dark, "gritty" and repulsive.

A comic doesn't have to be bright colors and smiles to be inspiring.

finster

01-20-2003, 02:07 PM

Dear Clayface,

I don't recall saying that a comic has to have smiles to be inspiring. In fact, if I wanted to see Batman smile, all I would have to do is turn to the final page of 'The Killing Joke'.
Batman smiles, he laughs, he embraces the Joker and they laugh together.

This is after
- The Joker has shot Barbara Gordon through the spine.
- The Joker has kidnapped Jim Gordon, stripped him naked and slapped a studded dog collar on him.
- The Joker has forced Jim Gordon to watch a show of blown-up photos of his daughter (now also stripped naked), her mangled body lying in a pool of her own blood.

Funny, after all that, I don't find a final scene of Batman in brotherly communion with the Joker very heroic.
But that's just me, I guess.
I had always thought that Bruce Wayne-Batman had a close, emotional, nearly familial bond with the Gordons. So, to me, that final scene plays as nothing more than appalling narcissism.
It's all about Batman and the Joker. Nobody else matters.
Perhaps that's an appropriate commentary on or times. But it's a pretty sad one.

Let me return us all to 1988. Frank Miller had rocked the comic book world with 'Dark Knight Returns' and 'Year One'. The other mega-event of the decade was Alan Moore's 'Watchmen'. And now Alan Moore was doing Batman! It was pre-sold as a classic. It was pre-sold as the definitive Batman-Joker story. And when it came out, most of the sheep agreed. It was so dark! And Alan Moore was a genuis! A few brave souls in the comics community criticized it- some said that it was pretty easy to do a shocking story when you are allowed to come in and cripple a character with a twenty-plus year history, and some were just plain disgusted by it. But, admittedly, it is the 'classic' tag that has stuck over the years. Too bad. Because 'The Kiliing Joke' is one sick joke on the legend of Batman.

Terminatah

01-20-2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by finster
Dear Clayface,

I don't recall saying that a comic has to have smiles to be inspiring. In fact, if I wanted to see Batman smile, all I would have to do is turn to the final page of 'The Killing Joke'.
Batman smiles, he laughs, he embraces the Joker and they laugh together.

This is after
- The Joker has shot Barbara Gordon through the spine.
- The Joker has kidnapped Jim Gordon, stripped him naked and slapped a studded dog collar on him.
- The Joker has forced Jim Gordon to watch a show of blown-up photos of his daughter (now also stripped naked), her mangled body lying in a pool of her own blood.

Funny, after all that, I don't find a final scene of Batman in brotherly communion with the Joker very heroic.
But that's just me, I guess.
I had always thought that Bruce Wayne-Batman had a close, emotional, nearly familial bond with the Gordons. So, to me, that final scene plays as nothing more than appalling narcissism.
It's all about Batman and the Joker. Nobody else matters.
Perhaps that's an appropriate commentary on or times. But it's a pretty sad one. Batman and Joker do not embrace and laugh together. They laugh for entirely different reasons. It's called subtext.

Originally posted by finster
Let me return us all to 1988. Frank Miller had rocked the comic book world with 'Dark Knight Returns' and 'Year One'. The other mega-event of the decade was Alan Moore's 'Watchmen'. And now Alan Moore was doing Batman! It was pre-sold as a classic. It was pre-sold as the definitive Batman-Joker story. And when it came out, most of the sheep agreed. It was so dark! And Alan Moore was a genuis! A few brave souls in the comics community criticized it- some said that it was pretty easy to do a shocking story when you are allowed to come in and cripple a character with a twenty-plus year history, and some were just plain disgusted by it. But, admittedly, it is the 'classic' tag that has stuck over the years. Too bad. Because 'The Kiliing Joke' is one sick joke on the legend of Batman. This right here is all groundless conjecture. Yes, this story uses elements that may be perceived as shocking and disgusting. But that doesn't make the writing inferior in any way. Not when it's reinforced by a style and message about insanity as poignant as Moore's.

Everyone's entitled to his own opinion, but not every "brave" minority is automatically right. And you can't presume to know the reasons behind the support of all the "sheep." Sometimes the refusal to conform is a conformity in itself.

-Terminatah

HelloKittyKat

01-20-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by finster
Let me return us all to 1988. Frank Miller had rocked the comic book world with 'Dark Knight Returns' and 'Year One'. The other mega-event of the decade was Alan Moore's 'Watchmen'. And now Alan Moore was doing Batman! It was pre-sold as a classic. It was pre-sold as the definitive Batman-Joker story. And when it came out, most of the sheep agreed. It was so dark! And Alan Moore was a genuis! A few brave souls in the comics community criticized it- some said that it was pretty easy to do a shocking story when you are allowed to come in and cripple a character with a twenty-plus year history, and some were just plain disgusted by it. But, admittedly, it is the 'classic' tag that has stuck over the years. Too bad. Because 'The Kiliing Joke' is one sick joke on the legend of Batman.

I didn't buy and enjoy the book because Alan Moore wrote it and it was hyped to hell (although that helped), I did it because of what happens in the story, and how we get a glimpse at the Joker's possible origin. The story itself is fantastic.

Zoddman

01-20-2003, 10:52 PM

You wanna know why Joker and Batman were laughing at the end of the book? Because that's all they could do. When you can't cry or yell, but you need to get something out, you laugh. They both realize this isn't the first time both of their night's have ended like this, and it definitely won't be the last. It's a sad, awkward moment for both of them, and the only thing they could do was laugh. look at the first panel of the book and then the last panel. Notice anything? The story ended exactly the way it started, a circle of conflict that will go on and on, never ending.

finster

01-21-2003, 06:56 AM

Moore's themes in 'The Killing Joke' couldn't be more clear. The identity of Batman and the Joker are the result of a couple of really 'bad days'. Fine. Except when they stand together, laughing, at the end (and sorry, but the last full-view frame of the two shows them indeed laughing together, with Batman reaching out to hold the Joker by the shoulders in an entirely companionable manner), Moore's Batman goes way beyond a simple acknowledgement of this thesis (even a cold nod by Batman, in my opinion, would have been too much). This nullifies Batman's heroism. Batman and the Joker, in Moore's view, are both sociopaths. Batman's pathology simply manifests itself in a different manner than the Joker. Batman goes into his pose not to save anyone from the fate he suffered as a child, but as that same stunted child, now adult, lashing out.
It is perhaps unsurprising that this selfish, nihilistic, amoral version of Batman has been embraced by a modern audience that has also celebrated literary 'heroes' such as Hannibal Lechter, Tom Ripley, and the vampire Lestat. It is also unsurprising that this same audience is unable to recognize the difference in character between this Batman and the Batman of the past (he's still heroic, just 'darker' and cooler now).
I wouldn't have minded 'The Killing Joke' if it had been an Elseworlds book, but this version of Batman has been the dominant one for fifteen years now, and it's getting tiresome.

Some of us wish for a bit more from our heroes.

Terminatah

01-21-2003, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by finster
Moore's themes in 'The Killing Joke' couldn't be more clear. The identity of Batman and the Joker are the result of a couple of really 'bad days'. Fine. Except when they stand together, laughing, at the end (and sorry, but the last full-view frame of the two shows them indeed laughing together, with Batman reaching out to hold the Joker by the shoulders in an entirely companionable manner), You're only seeing what you want to see. How do you know Batman isn't reaching over to grab Joker by the collar? Which, by the way, Batman does on pages 5, 40, 41, 42, and starts to on 43 (all instances of manhandling, not companionship). What you have is two guys laughing at the same time. In a story of subjective reality. How conclusive is that?

Originally posted by finster
Moore's Batman goes way beyond a simple acknowledgement of this thesis (even a cold nod by Batman, in my opinion, would have been too much). This nullifies Batman's heroism. Batman and the Joker, in Moore's view, are both sociopaths. Batman's pathology simply manifests itself in a different manner than the Joker. Batman goes into his pose not to save anyone from the fate he suffered as a child, but as that same stunted child, now adult, lashing out. Batman was always a sociopath. To do what he does? He'd have to be. Lightening the mood of his adventures can only serve to demean his heroism by downplaying an important aspect of his life. Some people can go through a tragedy and move on. But for Batman, there is no moving on. He was scarred permanently, and that's his only reason for doing what he does. Because he has to cope. Not because he was given the means to fight crime (Superman, Spider-Man, etc). Batman's devotion is practically inhuman. Shouldn't there be some driving force behind it?

Originally posted by finster
It is perhaps unsurprising that this selfish, nihilistic, amoral version of Batman has been embraced by a modern audience that has also celebrated literary 'heroes' such as Hannibal Lechter, Tom Ripley, and the vampire Lestat. It is also unsurprising that this same audience is unable to recognize the difference in character between this Batman and the Batman of the past (he's still heroic, just 'darker' and cooler now).
I wouldn't have minded 'The Killing Joke' if it had been an Elseworlds book, but this version of Batman has been the dominant one for fifteen years now, and it's getting tiresome.Well, you find it tiresome because you prefer a different take on the character. But I ask you, what is heroic? In the most technical sense, it involves feats of courage, nobility of purpose, and putting one's life on the line. What could be more inspiring than an ordinary man devoting his entire life (not just parts of it) to becoming the ultimate dispenser of justice? You can call it grim, but to a guy like Batman, it might be more grim to put on a conventional air of social stability.

Originally posted by finster
Some of us wish for a bit more from our heroes. This idea of more is really a relative concept. To some of us, Moore is more. But I guess to others, Moore is less.

-Terminatah

Nightwing1221

01-21-2003, 06:55 PM

This is why Batman, The Killing Joke is so popular, because we are still talking about it. Each of us have read the same book and each have gotten what they wanted out of it.

It is interestig how one person sees that panel of Batman and Joker as an embrace, and an other as a manhandling. I always seen it as Batman punching the Joker.

I agree with Zoddman, sometimes all you can do is laugh. Batman would never let the Joker see him cry or give him the satisfaction of knowing how hard this was on him so he laughed.

This book has so many layers to it.

I found Joker stripping Barbara and Jim as a way of him saying he stripped them of everything. Him showing Barbara's naked batered body to Jim, was his way of letting Jim know that.

Barbara getting shot just by answering her door made ths book all the more real to me. That could be my mother, my fiancce opening my door and getting shot at by some nut. Barbara put her life on the line night after night as Batgirl but in the end it was her life as Barbara Gordon that put her in a chair.

Batman's psyche is dark. This subject on his psche was also discussed in the Animated Forum. Bob Crane envisioned him as a dark hero not the campy 60's Adam West Batman.
Some heroes are good as light hearted, but Batman is not one of them. All these stories did were "Return" Batman to "The Dark Knight" he was.

finster

01-22-2003, 07:20 AM

For the record, Bob Kane absolutely loved the '60's Batman series.

I am unaware of his opinion regarding 'The Killing Joke', but I can tell you that he hated Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns', making particular reference to the more adult aspects (for the record, I loved DKR).
I don't think that I can track down the interview, but I do remember him making a specific reference to Batman fighting a woman with swastikas tattooed to her breasts ('Bruno' from book three, I think), and saying 'That's not Batman.'

Zoddman

01-22-2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by finster
For the record, Bob Kane absolutely loved the '60's Batman series.Bob Kane loved anything Batman that had his name on it. Miller gets the credit for DKR, so Kane denounces it.

Barb Gordon

01-22-2003, 01:59 PM

This is really such an amazing peice of work. As an Oracle and all around Barbara Gordon fan it always seemed an essential peice to have, even if I wasn't going to end up liking it or not. It's where so much started and ended. It is downright creepy, what Joker does do Barbara, even moreso to her father, and how Batman handles it all. Here truly is a psychopath of the worst sort. I enjoy Joker's origin because in all actuality, it probably isn't his origin to begin with. Like he said, sometimes he remembers it one way, sometimes another. He can make his past as sappy as he wants to win someone over - but even at this point, I don't think that even the Joker knows how it all started anymore.
Alot of people seem really upset with Joker shooting Barbara. I'm not sure if it's because it meant she couldn't be Batgirl anymore, or that they simply didn't like the act of what he did and how abrupt it was. Frankly, as fun and interesting as Barbara was as Batgirl, she was just a copy of Batman. A wannabe, a girl joining the all boy's club and somehow sticking it out. But she was always following along. As sudden and horrific the act it, and as bitter as Barbara is for it, she's better this way. Not that I want to see her paralyzed, but it took such an act for her to develop even more. She can and did go past the Batgirl stage. She's something no one else is, she's the best at it, people come to her - she is in her own realm where she basically rules all. That's a huge leap from kinda tagging along with other capes in Gotham. Now she's doing something she loves and knows, vigilantes come to her for information, etc. That's a pretty nice accomplishment. And even beyond that, being shot doesn't really do jack squat for her. It doesn't make her weaker in any sense at all. She can still kick some bad guys rear, there's no question about that.
Now sometimes I still debate whether she was violated by the Joker or not. He shot her - well that's a given we all know. He took pictures of her - a given as well. He put her in different positions - the pictures sort of relate that story. But did he rape her? Bullock tells Batman that that her friend found her their naked, and that pictures had been taken of her. But that's it. He does seem to not go into further, very much suggesting more then taking pictures happened. But I don't really think that would fit the Joker. He's psycho, a maniac, a killer, but a common rapist? I really don't buy that. Him shooting her point blank and taking pictures, that I can see, that suits him, that would be fun for him. But going beyond that, I just don't buy it.
On an ending point, this book really is great because even though something life changing happens to Barbara Gordon, and even though she isn't in the story all that much, the futhering of her character continues. I mean, she's just been shot, was stripped naked and had taken pictures of her while she was in excrutiating pain - and what's the first thing she thinks about when she wakes up in the hospital? Her father. Not really about herself, not oh god I can't feel my legs. She asks about her father, she's freaking out over what the Joker could be doing to him. I found that to be a very intense peice of characterization.

~Barb

James

01-22-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by finster
Moore's themes in 'The Killing Joke' couldn't be more clear. The identity of Batman and the Joker are the result of a couple of really 'bad days'.

Never noticed that. The parallel went way above my head. The more that's said here, the more I need to actually own it!

I've always seen the two of them as sociopaths. Two extreme ends of the spectrum. One Law, the other Chaos. Very different outlooks, but as with all extremes, they are as much united as they are different. I thought the end reflected this position extremely well.

James

01-22-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Barb Gordon
Alot of people seem really upset with Joker shooting Barbara. I'm not sure if it's because it meant she couldn't be Batgirl anymore, or that they simply didn't like the act of what he did and how abrupt it was. Frankly, as fun and interesting as Barbara was as Batgirl, she was just a copy of Batman. A wannabe, a girl joining the all boy's club and somehow sticking it out. But she was always following along. As sudden and horrific the act it, and as bitter as Barbara is for it, she's better this way. Not that I want to see her paralyzed, but it took such an act for her to develop even more.

I had to pop in again and say I totally agree. It was horrible act, yet it has made her one of the most unique and indepth characters we have in main stream comics. It did pull her out of both Bat and Dick's shadow and give Barbara her own identity. a great role model for thinking women as well as those who are disabled. A brave move by DC.

Now sometimes I still debate whether she was violated by the Joker or not. He shot her - well that's a given we all know. He took pictures of her - a given as well. He put her in different positions - the pictures sort of relate that story. But did he rape her? Bullock tells Batman that that her friend found her their naked, and that pictures had been taken of her. But that's it. He does seem to not go into further, very much suggesting more then taking pictures happened. But I don't really think that would fit the Joker. He's psycho, a maniac, a killer, but a common rapist? I really don't buy that. Him shooting her point blank and taking pictures, that I can see, that suits him, that would be fun for him. But going beyond that, I just don't buy it.
~Barb

Again, I'm here to agree with you. I've heard this and did wonder it once, but that's not his style. Firstly I've never seen him as a character who would rape. There is no hatred of women, no need to control or dominate. It's not him. He hates women no more than he hates anyone.
He does it to send a message and I always felt with a sort of naive innocence that would shock him if you suggested to him that he violated her in that manner. His interest is Jim. He cares little to nothing over Barbara. Not even enough to hate her with that sort of intensity.
In a way, it makes tha act colder. There is no personal feeling, there is no desire or interest. Just a means to an end.

Barb Gordon

01-22-2003, 07:53 PM

Something I'd passed over when reading, at the end Joker mentions: "I shot a defenseless girl. I terrorized an old man." I don't think he's the kind of guy who wouldn't admit to doing things, he's proud to own up to something he did, yet here all her says is shot. He could have said shot and raped, shot and violated, or whatever, but he didn't. Taking the pictures was a side thing, not as awful, kinda, compared to the actual act of shooting her. So if he had physically done something, why wouldn't he have said anything? Just wouldn't make sense to me why he wouldn't.

~Barb

Terminatah

01-22-2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Barb Gordon
Something I'd passed over when reading, at the end Joker mentions: "I shot a defenseless girl. I terrorized an old man." I don't think he's the kind of guy who wouldn't admit to doing things, he's proud to own up to something he did, yet here all her says is shot. He could have said shot and raped, shot and violated, or whatever, but he didn't. Taking the pictures was a side thing, not as awful, kinda, compared to the actual act of shooting her. So if he had physically done something, why wouldn't he have said anything? Just wouldn't make sense to me why he wouldn't.

~Barb And it's not even a matter of whether he would want to rape her or not. The whole purpose of shooting and stripping her was so he could put those pictures up in Jim's ride through the tunnel of madness. It was about Jim, not Babs.

-Terminatah

Barb Gordon

01-22-2003, 11:07 PM

yet another good point! One that I think is continually overlooked a lot of the times. It's quite true that this was what changed Barbara's entire life and occupation BUT that's not what this story was about whatsoever. Joker's aim was to drive Gordon over the edge, and Barbara was just a pawn in that game. Which can make her situation even more aggravating, I mean, he cripples one of his foes without even knowing it!

~Barb

TheScarecrow

01-23-2003, 09:31 PM

The Killing Joke is an awesome Batman vs. The Joker story. This is the most evil version of The Joker that I've ever seen. He shot Barbara in the spine just so he could make his point, nothing more, and that is extremely chilling. Every word of phrase spoken here about this book applies to my thoughts.

Reptile_Orion

02-07-2003, 03:06 PM

The Killing Joke is one of my favorite Batman stories. The art is really good and the story is top notch. I loved the way it ends. I thought it was really twisted what the Joker did to Gordon.

Robin

01-13-2006, 10:25 AM

I read that this story will be included in that Alan Moore collection that DC is releasing next week. Is this the first time this story has been collected outside of the one-shot? My copy of the comic is in very rough shape, and I'd like to get a new copy that doesn't have the pages falling out!

Leaping Larry Jojo

01-13-2006, 11:09 AM

Alan Moore wasn't especially proud of this story. I liked the Joker stuff in it--and the ending is kind of poignant...but it does feel a bit "slim" by Alan's standards, and I'm not just talking about the number of pages.

Great Brian Bolland art though.

Terminatah

01-13-2006, 07:31 PM

Moore has stated that he was just coming off WATCHMEN, so he gave the story a very "Watchmenesque" tone that I guess he feels wasn't the best idea, looking back on it. But I may be misquoting. Does anyone have any actual statements he's made about it? Because while I do see a lot of WATCHMEN in the story, I do not think it is subpar by any means.

-Terminatah

Stu

01-13-2006, 07:43 PM

I believe it's a story he was never too bothered about writing or something, he doesn't consider it to be among his best work, that's for certain.

Given that this is the only Moore story I've ever read, I really enjoyed it, mainly for the art than the story. Bolland draws a perfect Joker, arguably the best representation ever. I'm not so sure Joker needed too much of an origin, but, it all works. A solid effort from all.

****

Jon T

01-13-2006, 08:30 PM

Does anyone have any actual statements he's made about it?

I do recall a recent radio interview he did with Stewart Lee where he reiterated that he didn't feel that The Killing Joke wasn't his best work, mainly due to it not fully analyzing both the Joker and Batman. In the context of the many Batman graphic novels released since then however, he did admit that the story does stand up rather well!

One thing I've always wondered about though; was this story always meant to be in continuity? Clearly it ended up being part of the ongoing continuity, but I have the feeling that Alan Moore was probably given carte blanche with the story, under the pretext that it was to be a totally stand alone tale. Does anyone else know any better?

Silly McGooses

01-14-2006, 03:06 PM

When I was seven, this book was in the lost and found box of my elementary school. It stayed there for a year, and I was always tempted to pick it up because I was a huge Batman fan. By the next year I realized that it wasn't going anywhere, so I took it.:anime:

One of my favorite Batman stories, really The Joker's finest hour.

Anthonynotes

01-14-2006, 07:44 PM

Not reread it in some years now, but recall thinking it was "OK, if a bit bizarre [even for the Joker]". :-)

Re: the first poster's opening statement:
Actually, the Joker's "origin" (such as it is) was IIRC first given in a 1951 comic story (the "anonymous gangster known as the Red Hood trudging through chemical wastes near a playing card factory and becomes the Joker" version), so "The Killing Joke" isn't "the first time" it was revealed. :-)

-B.

Ed Liu

01-14-2006, 09:08 PM

Howdy,

I believe the prestige format one-shot is still available, so if you don't want to buy the full-size Moore TPB, you can just ask your shop to order the one-shot for you. If you already own the prior "Alan Moore DC" paperback, then getting the prestige format book will probably be more cost effective and get you the story on glossy paper to boot. If you don't, then you should get it whether or not it includes "The Killing Joke," especially because I think the new TPB also includes "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" now, which may be worth the price of admission alone ;).

Regarding Moore's comments about this book, I lifted this quote from this interview (http://www.blather.net/articles/amoore/brought_to_light1.html):

But at the end of the day, Watchmen was something to do with power, V for Vendetta was about fascism and anarchy, The Killing Joke was just about Batman and the Joker - and Batman and the Joker are not really symbols of anything that are real, in the real world, they're just two comic book characters.

This interview is old, mind you, and I don't see too many deeper themes in any of his ABC comics work (other than Promethea), and this interview is from some years ago. I also don't see much of a problem with just being a Batman and the Joker story, especially when it's as well done as this one.

Regardless, I still like the book despite its many critics, even if I squirm a bit while I'm reading it. It does a pretty fine job of making you feel sorry for the Joker while really wanting Batman to pound the crap out of him at the same time.

-- Ed/Ace

Cortez2301

05-15-2006, 08:08 AM

I had to pop in again and say I totally agree. It was horrible act, yet it has made her one of the most unique and indepth characters we have in main stream comics. It did pull her out of both Bat and Dick's shadow and give Barbara her own identity. a great role model for thinking women as well as those who are disabled. A brave move by DC.

[b]

Again, I'm here to agree with you. I've heard this and did wonder it once, but that's not his style. Firstly I've never seen him as a character who would rape. There is no hatred of women, no need to control or dominate. It's not him. He hates women no more than he hates anyone.
He does it to send a message and I always felt with a sort of naive innocence that would shock him if you suggested to him that he violated her in that manner. His interest is Jim. He cares little to nothing over Barbara. Not even enough to hate her with that sort of intensity.
In a way, it makes tha act colder. There is no personal feeling, there is no desire or interest. Just a means to an end.Hey james.listen my grandpa got the alan moore graphic novel which contains this story.he didn't give it to meyet but would you say i'd enjoy this story,as in is it worth it?

Beat

05-15-2006, 10:29 AM

Batman laughed because at that point, he realized just how far everything had gone. He had nothing left to do, and when he looked at fate...:lol:

This is definetely a great stand-alone story. However, I still wonder if it should have been incorporated into regular continuity.

EDIT- Man, this is an old thread.

Eddie G.

05-15-2006, 01:59 PM

Batman laughed because at that point, he realized just how far everything had gone. He had nothing left to do, and when he looked at fate...:lol: I think it was also symbolic of Batman and Joker basically being equally insane, but being on two ends of the spectrum. The Joker has this insane hatred for humanity (the mental patient who won't cross the light) and Batman has this insane hope for humanity (The mental patient with the flashlight). Based on this I also always figured that Batman's laughing because he truly gets it, he understands why the Joker does what he does. He understands because he's doing what he does for the exact same reasons, Batman really does get the joke.

I also like how it really isn't a happy ending at all. The Joker fails to prove his point that the world is meaningless and that everyone can become evil or bad just through chance. Batman however also fails to prove his point by not being able to bring the Joker to his side. It's a pretty cool paradox where nothing is proven.

RAINMAN

05-19-2006, 04:05 AM

This storie is one of the reason why all viallin should not be giving drama queen orgines. Don`t get me its a good origine but it does not fit the joker. I`m supposed to fell sorry for a guy that has made people life a living hell fro the past 50 years? I don`t think so. Althougth I will say this story has change joker comic book career around from being a lame viallin whit clawn make up into the creepy monster he is today. I look at it that way its not a really bad story. Althougth alien did go to far whit certain things even for a comic book.:o

Dark Night

05-26-2006, 10:39 PM

I loved a line i heard in a recent issue of Wizard that went something like : "comics finally hit puberty with this story"--I entirely agree...

Silly McGooses

06-05-2006, 02:33 PM

I tend to agree also. This is one of my very favorites.

James Harvey

03-19-2008, 06:50 AM

DC Comics re-releases this classic Batman story!

BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE

http://dccomics.com/media/product/8/7/8745_180x270.jpg (http://dccomics.com/media/product/8/7/8745_400x600.jpg)

Written by: Alan Moore & Brian Bolland
Art and cover by: Brian Bolland

The classic Batman tale by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland returns in an all-new special edition! The Joker's origin is revealed for the first time in this tale of insanity and human perseverance. Looking to prove that any man can be pushed past his breaking point, the Joker attempts to drive Commissioner Gordon insane. After shooting and permanently paralyzing his daughter Barbara (a.k.a. Batgirl), the Joker kidnaps Gordon and attacks his mind in hopes of breaking him. This edition - celebrating the 20th anniversary of the landmark work - features all-new coloring by Bolland, and includes the story "An Innocent Guy," previously featured in Batman: Black & White!

Comments?

Silly McGooses

03-22-2008, 11:04 PM

I bought the "Deluxe Version" on impulse--it was wrapped in plastic, so it was sort of a blind buy. I love the story and thought it was worth owning in a nice, oversized hard-cover.

I am pretty dissapointed. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I am very displeased with this. The re-coloring sounded like a good idea, but, to me, basically destroys the book. I had no idea how radical it was going to be.

Yes, I know, it's supposed to reflect the original intention of the artwork. And the original coloring was a bit...er...Schumacher-ish. But basically what we have here is The Killing Joke, usually considered to be one of the great Batman stories of all time, totally washed out, partially redrawn, with all sorts of unnecessary shading all over it on glossy, bright paper. It's sort of like Lucas' Star Wars re-edits, only more extreme. The best analogy I can think of is watching Tim Burton's Batman with the color turned off and the brightness on your TV turned up all the way.

Some of the changes are sort of cool. All of the Joker's flashbacks, for example, are in black and white, except for some selected red objects including, of course, the Hood. However, like all the colors in this edition, it's not really red, but a washed-out, greyish pink. Some might prefer the new, more realistic, drab colors in the opening Arkham scene. But in the end, I think the re-coloring was an enormous mistake, existing only to serve the ego of artist Brian Bolland.

John Higgins' original coloring was maybe a bit too psychadellic, but Bolland seems trying to be just as drab as possible to compensate. There is also a lot of digital airbrushing on the colors, which I think is distracting and, like usual with that sort of thing, looks like it's done just for the heck of it.

For me, the book had a sort of strange, nightmarish quality largely due to those vivid, dark colors. There is, by the way, a LOT less black here, too.
To my mind there are several scenes that are basically destroyed by the new coloring, including every part that takes place at the carnival. Jim Gordon's ride through the funhouse just looks like every other part of the book--it's no longer a hellish LSD trip. The insanity and horror of the scene is really subdued. I don't like the final scene, where Batman and Joker share a laugh, nearly as much in this new rendition, either.

I could nitpick for hours, but you get the idea.

I think some people might like it a lot, if only because Bolland says it is the definitive version of his work. Now, I think Bolland is a great artist. His work on penciling The Killing Joke really is fantastic--nobody draws the joker like him. But he did a really lousy job here, in my opinion. Ditto for his "Batman: Black and White" story also featured here, newly colored (totally unnecessary).

Hopefully someday there will be a new, really nice hardcover edition of the original version, or a version that includes both the original, the revised version, and maybe even a penciled version. As is, this book is not the Killing Joke I know and love.

dtemplar

03-23-2008, 01:50 AM

This should be the next DC Universe DVD.

Just get Paul Dini to write the script, and have Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill reprise their Batman: The Animated Series roles and it'll make a fortune.

*****

Spider-Man

03-27-2008, 09:23 AM

It seems that the recoloring of the book is catching some attention:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/25/remastering-old-work-kosher-or-not/

http://www.popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=43466

My current copy of The Killing Joke is in rough shape and I have been eying this but I'm still not sure. And I have to wonder why DC thought to just erase the yellow oval all together. Why do that? It's like they're trying to wipe it from existence. I have no problem with the yellow oval and I have to admit that it looks a bit odd without it on those recolored pages. The story is great and if I can get the hardcover for a good price I'll likely pay for it and try and keep my current copy just for the sake of keeping the original colored version of it. The recoloring seems to be getting mixed reviews.

James Harvey

07-17-2008, 07:00 AM

Just in time for The Dark Knight and cited as partial inspiration for the late Heath Ledger's performance in the movie, discuss this classic Batman story!

BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE

http://wf.toonzone.net/jimharvey/comic/t-joke.jpg (http://wf.toonzone.net/jimharvey/comic/joke.jpg)

Written by: Alan Moore
Art by: Brian Bolland

For the first time the Joker's origin is revealed in this tale of insanity and human perseverance. Looking to prove that any man can be pushed past his breaking point and go mad, the Joker attempts to drive Commissioner Gordon insane. After shooting and permanently paralyzing his daughter Barbara (a.k.a. Batgirl), the Joker kidnaps the commissioner and attacks his mind in hopes of breaking the man. But refusing to give up, Gordon maintains his sanity with the help of Batman in an effort to best the madman.

Comments? What are your thoughts?

Tobias

07-18-2008, 03:57 PM

All my experiences with the Joker have been through the t.v. shows and movies, and I thought Jack Nicholson's version was evil and psychotic.

Then one day I picked up this book, and 'Death in the Family', out of curiosity when I heard a Robin had been killed off.

... Wow. Gave me a whole new perspective on the Joker. Paralyzing Barbara and bashing Robin's head in with a crowbar are the two most defining Joker moments for me.

klammed

07-21-2008, 11:11 AM

Okay I so need to get my edition of this book back from my friend, the original softback edition. I just saw the picture comparisons on one of the links.. and is it just me, or was the original more striking? As in... he looks more nuts in the last panel there than in the more monochromatic rendering.. and more stark.

Anyway, the story itself is hell awesome. Visually poetic too (the raindrops, batmobile's headlights in the beginning, police car headlights and raindrops again at the end).. things go in a cycle, things stay the same despite everything? Take your pick. And the absurdity of life in a way, "one bad day" is all it takes. Both Bats and Joker had a bad day once, and it changed them. Gordon's had a bad day, but he's the ever shining cop of justice, and at the end of it, proves Joker's theory wrong.

So where does that leave the Joker?

There are so many questions asked about the characters in this short (relatively) piece it's amazing.