"Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive" Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

This thread will be to discuss Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive for the duration of the crossover -- all the way to July! I think by keeping this all in one thread, it'll provide an itnerest discussion and it will be neat to see how the coversations, ideas, and speculation evolve as the thread progresses.

So...let's talk Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive!

[kid_flash]

Whew. Glad I showed when I did, 'cause these long discussions have a way of turning me off, so I'm glad I got here when it started.

Well, things sure started off with a bang, huh? Four bangs, in fact. DETECTIVE COMICS #766 was amazing, can't wait for more. BATGIRL and NIGHTWING weren't AS GOOD, but they both had a few good moments.

Didn't think McDaniel's art would come through in 'Tec, but he did a really nice job. Jesse Delperdang should be the new official McDaniel inker since we can't have Karl Story anymore (alas, it appear we're stuck with Andy Owens, who does a nice job but some parts are kinda sloppy). Lemme tell ya though, if you dug this month's issue of 'Tec, next month's will blow ya away. From everything I know about it, it's gonna be incredible.

Oh, right, the story! Okay, some interesting points:

1. The gun was far away from the crime scene. It suggests someone dropped it on the way out, or Brucie just chucked it out the window. He had enough time even to run out there and place it (since Sasha described him as "showered and dressed" by the time she returned that night).

2. Allen's questioning Bruce and Montoya's questioning Sasha. I'm sure this will be important, just look at the interogation scene in 'Tec #154 (Officer Down).

Wish I had more to say, but I don't have any of the issues in front of me now.

[kid_flash]

Okay, I have 'Tec #766 with me right here, and I found some interesting stuff:

1. Wayne Manor is completely clean until we hit page 6, in which just about everything is knocked over, and (more interestingly) the window in the background is broken, as if something was thrown through it (brings me back to my point about the gun). In fact, the window next to it is shattered as well. Could just be background, could be something more.

2. The taped 9-1-1 call. First, the dialogue is different in Bruce's version than Sasha's version. In Bruce's, three shots are fired consecutively, followed by the fourth shot. In Sasha's, three shots are fired seperately, which could be the three bulletholes they found on the floor of the scene. But that doesn't explain the difference between the two tapes.

3. Bruce's personality. He switches in and out of Batman mode. On page 13, Bruce is very sad until he holds the pen in his hand, and which point he turns grim, and then goes back to Bruce mode. He's in complete Bruce mode while listening to the tape (very sadened, and then frightened when he hears the shots). On page 21, Bruce switches between Bruce and Bat mode from panel to panel. All of this is most obvious on page 21, panels 3, 4, and 5, in which Bruce looks like he's about ready to open up and tell Allen something, (panel 4), but then gets all grim and asks for his lawyer (panel 5).

Anyway, some random observations. From the preview pages on the Continuum, Gotham Knights looks promising.

[SilentBobWooHoo]

It seems that most crossovers suck...unless they take place in the bat-books (NML, anyone?). I don't have the issue with me, so I can't really go into much detail...but they were all great issues! kid_flash, dude...nice observations. I was thinking suicide at first...but then how the hell did the gun get in the woods? hmm, am I the only person that thinks this could be Commisioner Gordan?

[JL Man]

Great followups to the 10 cent adventure. kid_flash summed my opinion up pretty good. 'Tec was awesome, but I didn't particularly like Nightwing. Since they think it was Batman that was framed and not Bruce, could somebody give me a list of people that know who he is?

But, it IS Commissioner Gordon!!! :D

[kid_flash]

Nightwing had strong writing (amazingly, Chuck Dixon wrote it), but I will be so glad when that artist is GONE. Good artist, but definitely not fit for NIGHTWING.

A list of who knows who Batman is? Off the top of my head:

Jim Gordon (not officially, but speculated among fans)
Tim Drake/Robin
Barbara Gordon/Oracle
Batgirl (just found it out in this month's ish)
Dick Grayson/Nightwing
Clark Kent/Superman
Eel O'Brian/Plastic Man
Kyle Rayner/Green Lantern
Wally West/The Flash
Wonder Woman
J'onn J'onnz/Martian Manhunter
Donna Troy/Troia
Arsenal/Roy Harper
Garth/Tempest
Sasha Bordeux
Bane
Hugo Strange
Ra's Al Ghul
Talia

There are others, but like I said, this is off the top of my head.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by kid_flash

2. The taped 9-1-1 call. First, the dialogue is different in Bruce's version than Sasha's version. In Bruce's, three shots are fired consecutively, followed by the fourth shot. In Sasha's, three shots are fired seperately, which could be the three bulletholes they found on the floor of the scene. But that doesn't explain the difference between the two tapes.


And its completely different in the Batgirl issue (at least, from what I remember). I'm just going off memory here, but I thought in 'Tec we get several shots from the gun, then Vesper saying something, then more shots from the gun. But in the Batgirl issue, we get all of Vesper's dialogue, and then all seven gunshots. May be something, but most likely, I'm guessing its not important - just a minor flub.

[Kathy Kane]

I read the Nightwing iss. and I'm wondering why Bruce won't let Dick help out.
You're observations about the Bruce/Batman switch are creepy and true.
Something bugs me about the Batgirl iss. Oracle said that the inside of the manor, has some sercurity thing where audio/video can't be tranfered out, so will Babs get any pictures?
Also I wonder how Batgirl will be able to fight Shiva now that all this has happened, and I wonder what Shiva thinks about it too.

[The Guard]

Since when has Batman ever asked for help? He wouldn't let Superman help during NML. I think he knows something is up, and he's working on a plan...

[Joker85]

Well, out of all of them, Detective has been the best so far! Nightwing was pretty good though. This is shaping to be a better crossover then the LAst LAugh. Sasha is quickly becoming a favorite character of mine. I hadn't read any spoilers before hand so it may have been just me, but was anyone shocked to see Vesper die?? I know I was.

[The Guard]

It won't have to try too hard to be better than Last Laugh. LL was rushed, poorly written, poorly drawn crap. I have a theory that the creators rushed LL to work hard on this crossover...

[kid_flash]

Actually, Last Laugh was apparently Chuck Dixon's "big thing that he's been planning forever." I remember hearing news about it a year ago. Dixon and Beatty planned it forever, and it came out like crap. Rucka, Grayson, and Brubaker spent a lot of time on this, and it shows, thankfully.

The tape switch between Batgirl and 'Tec doesn't bother me as much as it does when the tape's different in the same ish, and one page followed by another. Greg publicly said there'd be clues here. I think this is one.

Can't wait for next Wednesday!

[James Harvey]

Speculation:

Could Lex Luthor be behind this? I remember reading that Lex Luthor was going to play a big part in Batman's life soon...

[Trent Lane]

Good point, DG. I didn't think of that... was it specified as what type of role it would be? Business maybe?... I was thinking maybe Ra's, but this seems kinda low for him- BUT I could see Talia doing it. She's always had a thing for Bruce, and another woman would make for some jealousy. Besides, doesn't she work for Luthor now, running his company and such? That would be a big possible connection...

[Joe Tully]

Does anyone think that it could be Hugo Strange? He's back from the dead now, right? I don't know much about him, though.

If it's someone going after Batman, I'd guess Ra's, Bane or Hugo. But could it be someone going after Bruce? DG's idea could work, I could see Lex going after Bruce for some possible reason. They are both very rich and maybe Bruce's arrest could make some competition between them easier on Lex?

[JLU Dude]

Bane and Ra's have bypassed Wayne Manor's security before and Luthor is capable of doing such stuff, so I'm gonna suspect them more than anyone else.

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by flhero311
Good point, DG. I didn't think of that... was it specified as what type of role it would be? Business maybe?... I was thinking maybe Ra's, but this seems kinda low for him- BUT I could see Talia doing it. She's always had a thing for Bruce, and another woman would make for some jealousy. Besides, doesn't she work for Luthor now, running his company and such? That would be a big possible connection...

I rmeember reading how Bruce and Lex are supposed to bump heads in the future, specifically in 2002. It may not be this storyline though.

Hey - it could be Jason Todd :)

[King Ryan7708]

Did anyone else have a problem with Nightwing? it wasnt important at all to the story I could have skipped it. what a waste!

[kid_flash]

Yeah, but what reason would Lex have to frame Bruce Wayne? Unless he found out that Bruce is Batman, which would just rule.

As for NIGHTWING, at least it showed how Nightwing was affected by it, instead of just Brucie.

[Joker85]

Well, I think we could eliminate Bane, he doesn't seem like the type to shoot someone. It's not his M/O. Ra's maybe, but it just doesn't seem like something he would do. I don't know, just thinking.

[The Guard]

I figured out why Bruce and Sasha heard different 9-1-1 calls. They are listening at the SAME TIME, and it's meant to bounce from one to the other. Read the panels across BOTH pages, and the 9-1-1 call is exactly the same. It's just, Bruce gets part of it, then Sasha, etc...

Oh, and for some reason I never realized this, but Batgirl just figured out that Bruce is Batman...

[kid_flash]

Sweet, didn't even think writers did that anymore. I'll have to remember to double-check to make sure of that (not that I don't trust ya, man, but I gotta check).

[The Guard]

Pretty sure that's what's going on. But it was 2 AM when I figured it out, so don't hold me accountable.

:)

[Samhaine]

Guard beat me to it. I read the Bruce page, then started the Sasha page, and in that realized that it was meant to go across both pages, showing different reactions.

And I think the tape in Batgirl was pretty close to the one in 'Tec. I read the books back-to-back and didn't notice any differences.

[kid_flash]

Whoo-hoo! Week 3! Okay, I can't go as in-depth as before because I haven't read them twice, and don't have them with me. But I just thought I'd stop by here and say three things:

1) GK #25 was awesome.

2) BoP was okay, the Sasha/Barbara scene sucked.

3) Babs as an attorney? Interesting, but I don't really like it.

[Joker85]

Well, just finished reading Gotham Knights issue 25, and I think that it is by far the best out of the murderer issues so far. I agree with Kid Flash, Barbara as an attorney was kinda strange. I haven't picked up Birds Of prey yet, but I'm not expecting much out of it, so I'm in no hurry.

[Trent Lane]

Wow, this is getting good. I've now gotten to read the first five parts and I'm hooked. I'm amazed at how loyal Dick and Barbara are to Bruce despite the fact that he's shutting them out basically. I'm really starting to wonder about ti all though. I know Bruce has a HUGE secret to keep, but why not tell them he's innocent? Sasha's done a lot of talking though, makes me wonder how much both of them really know about what happened that night....

[FLIPMODE]

At least we can rule out that Bruce did t. 7 shots fired and only 4 hit Vesper??

Eventhough he hates guns, the guy is a master Sniper. I saw him shoot 2 gun's out of the hands of a criminal, on a moving boat, about a miles away.

I think, Lex and Hugo are the most likely, but, I personally think Sasha, is the culprate. I believe she has obvious motives, going back to pages we can actually refer to seeing in past issues. If it's Hugo or Lex, they're going to have to shed the light as to why.

Is Robin 98 out yet? It said at the end of BoP, that it's out.

Another Person I think it Could be is Shiva. She has a REAL connection to what Bruce is getting charged for. Her whole obseession with Bruce is that, she is annoyed that someone with his amazing skill, never kills. And she's ashamed of him. This may be her way of making him a killer.

If it's Ra's again, they need to use another big villain to make story arcs with. He's a little overused these days.

[Trent Lane]

You know, I actually thought about Shiva as well... but then I had to wonder whether or not she would use a gun, and I don't think she would. With skills such as hers, she'd probably beat you to a pulp before she shot you full of holes... of course, it is a set-up as it appears to be, then she's a possibility...

[kid_flash]

There's literally no way Sasha did it. We followed her the entire night on the night of the murder. Vesper was already dead when she came back. Now, she could've arranged the hit, which I think is extremely likely. But I've still got my money or Bruce or Batman. Take your pick.

[FLIPMODE]

The only way we followed her through out the night was through Flash Forwards.

But remember, Batman and Sasha SPLIT up, Sasha was to take care of a easy mugging, while Batman took care of what seemed to be a Jumper, then he had another case that followed it.

Now with those 2 cases, plus the fact that Batman had to travel to get to them, Sasha's was right there no traveling time, Plus, her case was VERY easy. So lets say she finished in 2-3 minutes from the time they split, and Say Batman's Cases took a total of an hour. That gives Sasha ample time, to do anything, it also gives Batman ample to, it would be a great cover up.

But in Batman's defense, why would he ever lie about saving lives, and everything Batman did that night would be provable by the people he saved, not something Bruce can tell the cops, but, at least Nightwing and Bab's would believe him. But Sasha, She's had too much time on her hands, and the only thing that holds her back from doing this byherself is the fact that, if the tape was untampered with, then Vesper is referring to a man.

But Sasha had the ability to call Vesper up, Killer, and leave Before Bruce got back, then show up, Like she was out all night. Her case really took too long. It should have been about 5 minutes max, there is almost NO reason why she showed up after Bruce.

[kid_flash]

That's a good point. However, Sasha did narate the issue, and after reading far too many comics, I've learned that the mystery villain (or killer, whatever) never narates the issue until the writer is ready to reveal it. However, Sasha's dialogue could've allowed for it, I'll have to check.

Additionally, you're absolutely right when you say Bruce has something he could tell Dick and Babs. But he didnt.

[Joker85]

Well, I just finished the Robin edition to this series, and it was OK. Does anyone have a guess as to who was in that car?

[FLIPMODE]

I dont know, but that Issue was very Boring to me. At least it seems they are working on a Way to get Tim back in Gotham.

Sometimes I wish his parents would give him up for adoption to Bruce. All that lying to them is very redundant.

[kid_flash]

I dug the Robin issue, thank goodness Dixon was able to turn out at least one more good one before leaving. But, was it just me, or did that issue have absolutely nothing to do with Murderer?? Sure, it was mentioned a couple of times and we got a bit of Tim's thoughts on it, but if it's gonna fall under the crossover it should have a clue or SOMETHING. Other than that, cool issue. Time to go dig through GK #25 for clues :)

[Sugar Daddy]

i personally really liked the latest robin, although i have to agree it had nothing to do with the murderer storyline, just yet. i think think that vesper's might be tied in later to this kip dude being abducted

[kid_flash]

Nah, Kip's been having problems for awhile, along with everyone else at Brentwood. Next month's Robin looks like it'll have something to do with it, what with Dick and Babs showing up.

[Sugar Daddy]

Originally posted by kid_flash
Nah, Kip's been having problems for awhile, along with everyone else at Brentwood. Next month's Robin looks like it'll have something to do with it, what with Dick and Babs showing up.

im just guessing, because of the 3 robins i've seen, i havent seen him at school. which makes me wonder, because i dont know how long hes been at the school, if he was robin while still at home, how did he hide that? or is that why he is at that school? i know its off-topic, sorry