Justice League Unlimited "Ancient History" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

The final three weeks of US JLU airings begins tonight at 10:30pm (ET)!


http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/talkback.jpg (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/)

Episode #37 - Ancient History
Original Airdate - April 29th, 2006

The Shadow Thief returns and so does Hawkman as more mysteries from “Shadow of the Hawk” are explored.

Comments?

[Djm912]

GL and Hawkman.....awkward much?

[Juu-kuchi]

Full-screen?

Ah, it's good to see other obscure supervillains, and for his 4 minutes the Gentleman Ghost was quite alright. Nice to see that Hawkman is doing something with his hawk powers instead of sitting in an Egyptian cavern obsessing about Hawkgirl.

[FireWarrior]

Full-screen?

Ah, it's good to see other obscure supervillains, and for his 4 minutes the Gentleman Ghost was quite alright. Nice to see that Hawkman is doing something with his hawk powers.


Yeah I'm confused about this too. I thought it was supposed to be widescreen!

[FlyByNite77]

Why they gotta make the brother a playah... c'mon guys!

Oh well. go John ;)

[Railith]

Do we have some Yugioh shiz going on?

Oh we do!

[Juu-kuchi]

I can't helped but be reminded by the Prince of Egypt in that horse-riding sequence.

And why on earth is the Vizier out in that oasis like that, does he like know that oasis is like that lookout point of many teen movies, and thus to alleviate his romantic impotency see others at romance?

This Egypt sequence really makes the episode. And at least that Vizier was thinking he was doing the 'right' thing out of loyalty instead of doing it out of pure malice.

[FlyByNite77]

Wow they really showed ancient John going to town on Shayera... haha

[Djm912]

Not the Romeo and Juliet move!

Blecch.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Poor Hawkman.

John(not going to attempt the Egyptian name) and Shayera are jerks.

[Space Cadet]

Geez, John and Shayera, get a room you two.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Great episode, really good job.(Noticed Geoff John's name on this one, that man is incapable of doing wrong...)

Love Hawkman, and Vixen was great. John was really good, too.

Overall, a very strong episode.

[Caswin]

Where's the line between 'fanboy moment' and 'blatant ripoff'? Whatever it is, I count two.

[Juu-kuchi]

After watching this again, I really do appreciate this episode more. It managed to (for what it's worth despite its quick resolution and JLU ending this season) bring this Hawkman story to a close in one of the best ways possible, while not tidying up ALL the loose ends between GL and Shayera.

Widescreen for "Alive!" and "Destroyer" plz. Thanks.

8/10

[Azrael24]

So he chooses Vixen? BIG disappointment!! :crying:
but this episode was great *****

[Anarky]

some racy stuff tonight
but another awesome ep
2 to go :(

Gentleman Ghost was quite funny but Shadow Thief stole the show. Nasty character he is.

I just noticed this ep was fullscreen (wth!!!)

[Duke]

Meh, I just didn't feel this episode. Hell, until Shadow Thief revealed his true identity, I was wondering what the hell the point of the episode was.

And you just know Batman's thinking "That idiot..."

[Juu-kuchi]

So he chooses Vixen? BIG disappointment!! :crying:
Nah. I'd expect that from John. He's not one to be pushed around by anybody, let alone destiny.

[FlyByNite77]

I liked the 70sish soul soundtrack for John at his apartment... Smooooth ;)

The episode was pretty good. It didn't really resolve the triangle, but it did kinda put things out in the open and let you know that it'll probably change in the future, just not right now.

Looks like the next two episodes will be a great showdown against the legion of doom.

[Tiara]

Thoroughly impressed by the episode, 4.5 stars!

I should note though that any episode that deals with Jon and Shayera's relationship always does well by me. :)

Anyway, I liked the focus on the relationship and the surprising history lesson, including the decision to deviate from the comics in that Carter and Shayera in fact were not soul mates. Certainly they loved each other, but Jon is her one true. Then Jon has to mess it all up...

Nice fight although I'm shocked how GL keeps getting punked out. An experienced warrior with the most powerful weapon in the universe and he can't take on Shadowthief? He should have blown SH apart when he got engulfed! Oh well, slave to the story and all.

I was surprised at the instances of maturity in the story. While the cattiness of Vixen and HG seemed a little cartoonish, the murders of the ancient HG and GL, along with Carter's admission, really did well.

One nitpick: I think that Carter's VA sounds right for the character but I don't think he's a good actor, at least in this regard. Comments from anyone?

Edit: incidently, I'm sad that the triangle will never be resolved with JLU being canceled. I suppose others might say that it has been resolved but I don't see it. Jon's reasoning for being with Vixen is weak: I'm not going to be a slave to destiny... so I'll be a slave to my stubborness instead. He likes Vixen but LOVES Shayera and he's gotta realize that.

[90'sCartoonMan]

I liked the 70sish soul soundtrack for John at his apartment... Smooooth ;)

Was that the same music they used in "In Blackest Night"?

You know, I like the Romeo and Juliet aspect of this episode. It's a callback to the fact that they named the big Green Lantern/Hawkgirl episode "Starcrossed".

Didn't see that coming, Shadow Thief a part of Hawkman? Wow. And I really dug the flashback. Hath-Set wasn't as evil as he is in the comics, but that was really well done with the wine looking like blood. And they mentioned Khandaq and Teth Adam?! Man, I love Geoff Johns. I love JLU.

The ending was nicely done too. John admitted he still loves Shayera, but he's not going to just give in to destiny. That would be the easy thing to do. He genuinely cares about Vixen, he said he was going to miss her in the beginning. He definitely needs to work some things out, and he's not going to let a thing like seeing his son in the future make the quick decision for him.

[JEWCY]

I mean, what is Jon going to do, he was a man about it. He wasnt going to dump his girlfriend in a coma. Granted he loves Shayera and they will be together with Warhawk eventually (possible DTV!) but you know what, Im fine with him sticking with Vixen. Jon is a man, and he will not be a pawn

Oh and that scene reincarnating what happened in Wild Cards and Hawkgirl cheating on Hro'Talek was played beautifully with the flashback of cheating on Hawkman.

and who didnt think that was blood at first, I was like o s***! and then I was like , right... when they showed it was wine

hell yea, great episode
5/5 stars

[Bizarro Batman]

Gotta love it when a show subverts your expectations. I was totally figuring John and Shayera would get together at the end. The story is better and more logical for it not taking that route though. They obviously will get together at some point, the show points it out as such, so there's no need to awkwardly get to that conclusion before the episode ends.

Well done episode that nicely concludes that subplot.

[Caswin]

Nice fight although I'm shocked how GL keeps getting punked out. An experienced warrior with the most powerful weapon in the universe and he can't take on Shadowthief? He should have blown SH apart when he got engulfed!While that would've been a neat scene, I think it was pretty well established in Shadow that, if you can't damage him with light, Shadow Thief is just incredibly frustrating to fight.
Oh well, slave to the story and all.Heh. Ironic. ;)

[Gpoliceman]

Another opinion:

I thought this episode was very good.

WHAT I LIKED:

-The Shadow Thief's origin and motivation.
-Resolution to the plot questions left over from Shadow of the Hawk
-Hawkgirl finding out about her son
-Green Lantern deciding to not be a pawn of fate

WHAT I WISH WAS BETTER:

-I did think Hawkman's exit in this episode was a little rush. He basically comes to the conclusion WAAAY to fast for me. His conclusion is that this Hawkgirl is not the one he knew, he lost his woman, so he should move on. But he said it and came to that point so fast I was bewildered.

I thought this was an excellent way to tie up the Green Lantern/Hawkgirl relationship. Now that it's all said and done, I must admit their love story was very complex throughout JL/JLU. We know they end up having Rex Stewart, Warhawk, as their son, so it's good that for now it's left up to us to assume how that occurs, since GL decides to stay with Vixen. We can only assume Hawkgirl prying into her future son (by questioning Batman) is going to set her on a path to hooking back up with John. I like how this ties into the Hawkgirl from the past wanting a son too.

I wonder if Batman wanted to be a "pawn of fate". I guess not, since in Rebirth he was hesitant to let Terry take the mantle.

Greg

[Tiara]

Some people talked about Romeo and Juliet but I was thinking that the plot line was much more akin to the tales of King Arthur. It's one of the great tragedies: to fall in love with your best friend's wife. You love them both and yet...

[MachSabre]

(Noticed Geoff John's name on this one, that man is incapable of doing wrong...)

Might wanna read how Jason Todd came back to life before you make that claim. :p

All in all, I really liked this episode a lot more than the last one. (Sorry, I don't care how well handled they are, you can never make me like the Legionaires.) This episode gave a few surprises (including the rather brutal breaking of Jon's arm, as well as how they wrapped up the Love Triangle/Rectangle/Whateverangle) and it just reminded me how much I'm actually going to miss this show once it's gone.

[Revelator]

Some people talked about Romeo and Juliet but I was thinking that the plot line was much more akin to the tales of King Arthur. It's one of the great tragedies: to fall in love with your best friend's wife. You love them both and yet...

Exactly--"Ancient History" has far more to do with the legends of Arthur, Lancelot and Guenevere, (and the legends of Tristan, Isolde and Mark) than with Romeo and Juliet.

[Master Moron]

I mean, what is Jon going to do, he was a man about it. He wasnt going to dump his girlfriend in a coma. Granted he loves Shayera and they will be together with Warhawk eventually (possible DTV!) but you know what, Im fine with him sticking with Vixen. Jon is a man, and he will not be a pawn


You know, just because Green Lantern's kid has wings doesn't mean it's Hawkgirl's kid. How about this? Hawkgirl and Hawkman have a kid and Green Lantern has sex with there kid? Then his kid would have wings.

By the way, what was with the water bottle at the beginning. I didn't get it, and I missed what Vixen said before she threw the bottle away.

[MachSabre]

Naw, it was pretty much confirmed that Jon and Shayera is Warhawk's parental units. And the water bottle thing... Shayera made a joke how on Thanagar, she could have poisoned her water to get Vixen out of the picture.

[Batman Fan]

An ok conclusion to Shadow of the Hawk with a twist in the "Love Square" and the surprise revelation about Shadow Thief.

The opening of this episode was neat, just to see the Gentlemen Ghost in action, who is a very cool villan. Then we just get Hawkman coming out of nowhere, which was a little strange, but whatever. Vixen and Shayera's conversation concerning GL was interesting to hear just because of how Vixen could totally care less about GL taking back Shayera, as she constantly pokes at her about how she's going to take him back. I loved the symbolic meaning of the poisoning of the water as it would later lead to an important scene. The ironic thing about GL and Vixen's relationship is that Vixen is expecting that he will leave her for Shayera and GL's gonna stay with Vixen just so he won't be destiny's toy, so really, their relationship means absolutely nothing.

I liked how we got to see a down-to-earth view of GL and Vixen and how their regular lives played out, with Vixen's photo shoot just to them two having breakfast in the morning, these are rare things you don't see on the show too often. The first fight with Shadow Thief was interesting just to see how powerful he is, he was able to capture GL. Also, just seeing the extensions of Vixen's abilities is always fun to watch in a fight, because she has the whole animal kingdom to choose from to use their abilities.

The flashback into the Egyptian past was very interesting. The way they were able to show the whole affair between Shayera and past GL (can't recall his name) was very adult oriented and it was very much like a realistic couple with each spouse having different wants, Shayera wanting to have a baby, and Katar wanting to expand his empire. So, Shayera finds someone who she can fulfill her dreams with and that makes matters worse when we find out he's actually Katar's friend. The gruesome death scene for those two was really tragic and they way the executed it was amazing, with the "blood" which is actually the drink spilled everywhere which was poisoned to kill them as Katar had secretly wished when he caught those two in action, which was quite physical for a kid's cartoon I might add. The rest of the stuff about how they built the vast kingdom and stuff like that was a bit boring, only good for its visual aspects.

The big revelation was the fact that we learned Shadow Thief isn't Katar's servent but is actually an extension of evil thoughts and desires from Hawkman. That came out of nowhere for me and I was thoroughly pleased and surprised by it. The tension between Hawkman and GL for Shayera was there, but wasn't used to its full potential. I would've like to see more struggle for Hawkman to make the right decisions. It would've been neat to have him fight GL to win Shayera while Shayera tries to talk him out of it, but the way he's able to defeat Shadow Thief was extremely rushed and a bit anti-climatic. Also, it makes sense the way Hawkman gives up on Shayera, but I still would've like to see more emotion and feeling from him, after all, this was the woman he thought he was destined to be with, and he acted like he barely cared.

The confrontation between GL and Shayera at the end I guess is probably the last we'll see of their relationship. GL tells Shayera about Warhawk and tells her he loves her (sort of) but still stays with Vixen. I guess we all eventually know he'll leave her to have a baby with Shayera, but the relationship still has me feeling a little empty about it. This leads back to what I said about GL and Vixen's relationship as they're both staying with each other because they feel the need to. They both realize what is meant to be, but they refuse to except it. At the end where Shayera sits down with Batman and asks him about her son I thought was touching in the fact that she really wants this thing with GL to work out.

Animation and visual wise, this episode was great. The colors and the whole look looked a bit different to me, but it was very vivid and intense which I liked. The animation in itself was good too, the fight scenes with Shadow Thief were very fluid, which is good, since he's a shadow and seeing all of his abilities was pretty cool too, but I still can't understand the concept on him of what someone can physically do to him. The backgrounds were beautiful in this episode, speaking mostly from the flashback sequence in Egypt.

Overall, we've got a shaky conclusion on Hawkman. We get an awesome link between him and Shadow Thief, some good character scenes/development, an interesting flashback scene connecting Hawkman, Shayera, and GL together, and nice animation and visuals. On the other hand, we've got a very bland ending to the love square and the defeat of Shadow Thief. Here we've got four characters who are all tied together in some way, and we barely get any emotion between them when hearts are broken, minus a few scenes. We end up knowing how they feel, but the way it's executed makes it seemed forced and emotionless. Shadow of the Hawk is the superior episode out of this mini arc.

***1/2

[Jazzie]

If you're not going to resolve GL-HG then two hawkman episodes is and was a waste. What was the point to give Hawkman all that last season play and have it not really mean anything?

[Archangel2385]

I'll write a review later, but for now, I must say I'm kinda disappointed.

Why, because JLU looks to be cancelled, and there still is no sign of love triangle resolution in this episode. The previews alone hint at an epic battle involving a good portion of the JLU and the LoD. I don't see how any type of resolution between Shayera/John/Vixen could be adequately accomplished in the season finale. Sure, it's possible, and Bruce Timm and Co. have a knack for doing amazing things, but right now I'm pretty skeptical . . .

What's more, unlike others, I am in no way convinced now that John will end up with Shayera. His interaction with Vixen shows that their relationship, in spite of the many external strains present (see Shayera), is something. He cares for her, more so than many probably give him credit for. Whether he loves her is up for debate . . . and in addition to his feelings, John/Mari actually do hold validity. They play excellently off each other, and I can actually see this couple working . . . and it irks me.

It irks me, because it can now definitely go either way, and there doesn't seem to be any type of resolution on the horizon. Honestly, I'd be happy if John ended up with either of them, though I'm still crossing my fingers for Shayera.

My final issue is with John . . . what kind of lame excuse was that to stay with Vixen? If he said because he likes her, cool . . . if he said because he loves her, even better . . . if he simply said because she's in a coma, GREAT . . . but instead it's "I won't be a slave to destiny."

What kind of BS is that? That says NOTHING about his feelings, which are what is truly important at the moment. Sorry, but even if that line was kinda admirable, it still irritated me to no end. C'mon John, FOCUS.

/end rant

[Jazzie]

...and while I like John and Shayera I darn sure am sick and tired of this played out love triangle. It went on way too long, They ran that thing into the ground and the only redemption would have been a clean or semi-clean conclusion instead of that half-assed empty ending as a payoff. They build it up for all these years and at the end they failed miserably.

[Dens Maris]

Again, sometimes, I really hate the new rules on this board. Not enough to leave, just enough to complain uselessly about having to restrain my...belligerent tendencies. :p

The first half is somewhat unclear, but the second half alone gets it a 3.5 / 5 for me.

[Casey Mack]

You know, just because Green Lantern's kid has wings doesn't mean it's Hawkgirl's kid. How about this? Hawkgirl and Hawkman have a kid and Green Lantern has sex with there kid? Then his kid would have wings.

By the way, what was with the water bottle at the beginning. I didn't get it, and I missed what Vixen said before she threw the bottle away.

Warhawk does not have wings,but usess fake wings as a part of his battle suit. so yes Warhwak is john and Shayeras son duh.:shrug:

[JEWCY]

Didnt anyone else think it was cool in the flashback that GL and HG kissed just like they did in Wild Cards and that HG was cheating on H'ro Talek in present day and Hawkman on the past day. I thought that was one of the coolest things of the episode

[Jazzie]

I agree about John's line at the end being about the stupidest in memory.

[cameronpoe1986]

If I have one complaint, it's that everything happened way too quickly, which I guess is to be expected since the story only had 22 minutes to fit into. Would've been much better if there had been time to really explore the truly complicated relationship that Shayera, Katar, and John have.

[melibell21]

wow, this is one of my new favorite episodes. it tied gl with the reincarnation thing very well, and the ending was touching.

great job guys!

man, i'm gonna miss jlu.........

[Dens Maris]

I don't think it's a stupid line. John's obviously not going with what he really wants (in "Shadow of the Hawk", he made it pretty obvious that he thinks it's supposed to be him and Shayera), but having just seen ancient analogs of himself, Shayera, and Carter, I think it feels too prophetical for him to be comfortable acting on his feelings.

I can sympathize. Isn't it unnerving to think that past, present, and future might be determining your actions and emotions for you?

[Blacklight]

So are Shayera's wings natural or not?

I accept her hovering as an animation cheat, but Hawkman is definitely human. Are his wings some version of Thanagar prosthetics, while hers are actual limbs?

[Captain Clown]

Let's just say Jon and Shayera never get together after all, and Warhawk is just the product of Project Green Lantern Beyond.

[Casey Mack]

So are Shayera's wings natural or not?

I accept her hovering as an animation cheat, but Hawkman is definitely human. Are his wings some version of Thanagar prosthetics, while hers are actual limbs?

:shrug: yes Hawkgirls wings are real like the rest of her race, which im sure is all to obvious buy now.

[Jazzie]

Let's just say Jon and Shayera never get together after all, and Warhawk is just the product of Project Green Lantern Beyond.


Because the writers of the show say different.

I don't think it's a stupid line. John's obviously not going with what he really wants (in "Shadow of the Hawk", he made it pretty obvious that he thinks it's supposed to be him and Shayera), but having just seen ancient analogs of himself, Shayera, and Carter, I think it feels too prophetical for him to be comfortable acting on his feelings.

I can sympathize. Isn't it unnerving to think that past, present, and future might be determining your actions and emotions for you?


To me it was just felt like the writers contrived way of keeping the soap opera going.

[Casey Mack]

Let's just say Jon and Shayera never get together after all, and Warhawk is just the product of Project Green Lantern Beyond.

years in the future senseing the world needed a hawkman or girl to aid the justice League. Amanda waller and the original Hawkgirl [shayera hol] stole the "DNA" of John stewart, and implanted it into herself. With the aid of Waller she was able to create a genetic son out of her and John stewarts DNA. BUt GL found out, but his anger was cooled when he saw his son for the first time. He reconciled with Shayera and understood she did what she did for a reason. They named him Rex Stewart, and Amanda waller called the project "Warhawk". LOL:p

[maczero]

To me it was just felt like the writers contrived way of keeping the soap opera going.Umm...keep it going? Aren't we coming up on the series finale? I doubt their relationship will get much airtime if any in the upcoming eps. If it's resolved by Jon going back to Shayera by series end, then great. If not, then I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I never saw this love triangle as something that dominated the show. I've always considered it just a fun little "slice of reality" that gets some attention every now and then.

BTW, really liked this ep. I wonder if we'll get anybody denying past Jon & Shayera had an affair.:D

[Jazzie]

Umm...keep it going? Aren't we coming up on the series finale?

BTW, really liked this ep. I wonder if we'll get anybody denying past Jon & Shayera had an affair.:D


That would be hard to do, lol.

[William C. Maune]

I liked John's decision and his reasons for it. The way I see it, he didn't choose Vixen and tell Hawkgirl "never." Instead, he chose Vixen for the time being. In other words, rather than let what he has seen of the future and the past make the choices for him, he decided to stick with his previous choice, which was to see things through with Vixen. It doesn't mean he won't end up with Shayera; seeing things through with Vixen could lead to he and Vixen breaking up, she chould meet someone else, or any other number of things could happen.

He admitted he still loves Hawkgirl, however that doesn't mean that he has to go back to her just because fate tells him to. Instead, he'd rather go back to her on his own terms, when the time is right for them. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Just because events in the future and the past indicate that they should be together doesn't mean that they should force it to happen right away.

[Sue]

Didnt anyone else think it was cool in the flashback that GL and HG kissed just like they did in Wild Cards and that HG was cheating on H'ro Talek in present day and Hawkman on the past day. I thought that was one of the coolest things of the episodeSo did I Jewcy. I liked how those two episodes were mirrored.

I thought this was a damn clever episode, especially Shadow Thief and Carter's ties. There were hints in "Shadow of the Hawk" (even the title itself), but I expected Carter to be villian in league with Thief. I'm glad this wasn't the case. Being a huge fan of Geoff John's Hawkman run, I enjoyed the Kandaq and Teth Adam references and the overal treatment of the ancient Egyptian stuff. In terms of Hawkman's portrayal, I expected a more ballsy characterization since Geoff wrote the teleplay, but he didn't come off too badly here. At least he could kick some ass this time around. That's my only complaint, though a minor one, about this. There's always the comics :cool:

On to the love square nuttiness! I really felt bad for Katar during the flashbacks; he seemed like a decent guy. On the other hand, I can somewhat understand why Chay-Ara fell for ancient John, and not just 'cause he looked hot in his Egyptian gear :p She wanted a child, Katar wouldn't oblige her, and ancient GL might have. I don't condone cheating, but her motivations aren't completely unrelatable. Leaping to the present, I have mixed feelings about John & Shayera not getting back together. It would've been nice if they had, but leaving Mari while in her current state would've been low.

[sdp]

this episodes should not get a bad rap,

at first i was "man what a generic episode" i was dissapointed,

then i thought it was a good "sequel" to the original hawkman episode, expanding the characters,

but by the time it ended i like this episode a lot.

[JEWCY]

dang it really makes you think

Shadow of the Hawk...

right in our faces, yet how many people could of really thought this?

[Anon190]

Color me impressed, but disappointed. Yes, I was totally rooting for John and Shayera to get back together.

Many points for the Egypt sequence, though; that was well done. Especially the end - of course it's like a soap opera, but I mean, it's set in Egypt with winged people, it's much cooler than any soap opera!

Who else noticed Shayera and Bashari's kiss was exactly the same as the kiss in Wild Cards? Nice reference there.

Oh, and I win the Best Fanwank award! When Shadow of the Hawk aired, I said GL was Hawkman's reincarnation. I was close, really really really close! About the reincarnation bits. *goes to make self a trophy*

[Batman49]

I really liked this episode. I like the twist at the end with the Shadow Thief. I also thought the way the love triangle is resolved, or better yet left unresolved, is the best way to go. I'm all for leaving things open. You never want to box yourself in. I am really pissed though that this aired in fullscreen and not in widescreen. :mad:

[DarqueGuy]

Good grief...all the complaining about "no resolution" while we've already been shown the resolution: it's Warhawk. At some point, John and Vixen part ways and he and Shayera have a child. It's not a possible future, it's not something that can be undone, it's canon according to Dwayne McDuffie. Just because it's not strewn out in front of us doesn't mean we can't put things together from what's come before. Fill in the blanks, kids.

Anyway, I really dug this episode a lot. As a comics fan, I liked the reference to Teth-Adam (Black Adam). I liked the twist on the Shadow Thief's backstory--it works really well for the DCAU, although it'd require too much retrofitting in the comics. And, finally, Hawkman gets some good screentime without giving off the "stalker" vibe (and I liked his voice--reminded me of his Superfriends voice but with better dialogue). I thought it was a bit more grim than other episodes--people have slated Romeo & Juliet and the Arthurian legends, while my first thought was Othello--but I didn't think it was gratuitous (at least not the violence--the Egyptian makeout session may've been a bit much). Overall, I thought it was a nice way to conclude the "love square" story and a nice final episode before the big series conclusion. :(

5 Stars. Nice goin', Geoff.

[Maxie Zeus]

Brief take: Interesting situation shoehorned into a claustrophobic structure. There's enough story in the pair "Shadow of the Hawk"/"Ancient History" for a season-long, "Cadmus"-like sub-arc. Playing it out in two short action eps--one of which is basically an extended, exposition-burdened flashback--takes what could have been the spectacularly nutty premise for an awesome, time- and soul-bending melodrama and reduces it to an anecdote.

Also, I miss the robo-mummies.

But Joaquim dos Santos never disappoints.

[SuperChicken]

Great episode, really good job.(Noticed Geoff John's name on this one, that man is incapable of doing wrong...)



Unless it involves 'Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew' or Wendy and Marvin showing up in the Teen Titans comic book.

I like him, but Johns musta been smoking some wacky weed while writing those...

Oh and this episode was great.

[sdp]

to add a little more, at first i was 'jeez, another love triangle/square? story, but it was different and had more 'closure', i personally loved it, i dont need everything spelled out, i mean we know they will get together anyways...

[JThree]

OK. I gave this episode two and a half stars. And I'm still not sure if this was good or bad. In some ways, the episode was dramatically well done, and it had its moments of tension.

On the other hand, I can see why the Cartoon Network would have trouble putting this on their regular family-friendly time slots, with what happened to the Egyptian Shayera and John Stewart. People, that would be way too strong for little kids to see.

But I'm in the minority here. I guess it's because I'm a Silver Age Hawkman fan, just this week, I got my volume 2 of the Silver Age Hawkman Archives.

Since the Hawkgirl/John Stewart relationship blossomed, I had my troubles with it. I kept thinking Hawkman. . . HawkGIRL . . . .HawkGirl... HawkMAN. When "Starcrossed" came out, I sort of let things go, thinking this was the direction they were going with it.

But I guess this yearning for the Superfriends Hawkman, really got ramped up when this new incarnation --John Carter showed up, which seemed to be an amalgram of both the old Golden Age and Silver Age Winged Warrior origins.

At the ending of this episode, I really felt sorry for him.

The writing of this felt muddled. In "Shadow of the Hawk," I believe it was written by Geoff Johns, the ending seemed to say one thing. . . And now in "Ancient History," it goes another.

I also didn't like how Vixen came out in all this. By the way, I really think the Timm and Co did a great job in developing her personality and choosing the voice over actress who gives her life. I can't remember her name, but she's great as Vixen. But this triangle does a disservice to the character. I think she really does love John, but she really loses here. If John Stewart stays with her, its due to his sense of duty or trying to fight destiny; and if GL leaves her for Shayera she still has to deal with a broken heart.

Not good people.

I have to agree with the pollster who said something about a "soap opera."
There may have been some conflict here between different fan factions on how to resolve the fate of these characters, but somehow I feel everyone loses here. And no real winners.

I can't say it's just Timm & Co who have treated Hawkman this way, but DC has always done its share in confusing the persona over the years. We'll see how Infinite Crisis resolves things (or maybe not).

Being a SilverAger, I wish the romantic tension on the series could have existed more between Black Canary and Green Arrow, how in my opinion could have been on JL earlier.

Well, I have to finish that letter I've been meaning to send Bruce Timm since I heard how this episode would end.

Take care

JThree
carolyn@dia.net

[Revelator]

Is there any info about why this was aired in fullscreen? I guess we'll know by next week whether it was a screw-up or if CN has decided to forget about widescreen now that the show is on its last legs.

[Jazzie]

What kind of woman would stay with a guy who tells her that all the time he was with her in his heart and mind he believed he was going to get back together with his ex he was still in love with and have a child? I pray they would never portay Vixen as that stupid and pathetic.

[pharmmajor]

I see I'm not the only one who thought John was acting like a d**k at the end. I mean, he turns away the mother of his future child on the basis that he doesn't want to be a "slave to destiny". It just seems wrong to me. Okay, he's showing fidelity to Vixen, and that's good, but the guy shattered Shayera's heart. Really lowered my opinion of the character.

I thought the episode was great. The story was incredibly dramatic, which is rare for cartoons nowadays. Gentleman Ghost had a killer voice actor and played nicely in the intro. I wish they could have done more with him, though. Shadow Thief made a devilish return and caused some major havoc as well as playing a key role in the plot, cementing his status as a villain to be reckoned with. My only nitpick, and I know this seems weird, is that I would have liked it if he wasn't an extension of Carter. I wanted him to be the Shadow Thief from the comics, Carl Sands. MAybe they could have made him Carter's former archaeology partner or something like that, and he learned the secrets of the past when he touched the Absorbacon. But that's just me.

[Dynoblaze]

The episode was great. Anything more would be a rehash of someone else's opinion.

Funny thing though, I thought the episode had sort of a mini-movie feel.

[Jazzie]

It lowered my opinion of Stewart considerably as well and they did his character a great diservice. I could see him not wanting to go into the hospital room and dump the woman who just tried to say his life but the writing made things so cold dead and depressing. They didn't have to put them back together just then but they could have had him show Shayera some kindness and respect and just say he needed to talk to Vixen and left it at that.

[William C. Maune]

It lowered my opinion of Stewart considerably as well and they did his character a great diservice. I could see him not wanting to go into the hospital room and dump the woman who just tried to say his life but the writing made things so cold dead and depressing. They didn't have to put them back together just then but they could have had him show Shayera some kindness and respect and just say he needed to talk to Vixen and left it at that.

Why is now the time to do that though? The only thing that changed in regards to their relationship is they learned about a past life that may be relevant. Thus, if he broke up with Vixen in favor of Shayera now, he would be doing so simply because Destiny said that is what should happen. Is it really better for him to make a decision based on what the anchient past tells him to do instead of what feels right in the present? The anchient history may say they should be together, but it doesn't say when they should be together.

[beyondthewall]

3 1/2 stars. It wasn't as good as the other Hawkman episode this season, but it was still good. The shadow thief thing was kind of stupid, but all in all it was a worthy episode tofurther the triangle with. Oh yeah and the fullscreen thing pissed me off.

[Funkatron]

I loved the Contrast between Katar Hol and GL when it came to fate and destiny:

Katar was a blind believer in Destiny. He thought that because that because he and Shiara were lovers in a previous life, that they were "destined" to be in love once again. And then when he found out thier "former lives" met an ill fate, he once again followed "fate", believing that it ended badly then, it would end badly now.

John, on the other hand, decided he wasn't fate's pawn. You sort of hate yet understand his decision. Either way he chose, you could still say he let the future knowledge influence him: if he xhose Shiara, it would have been because of thier son. If he chose Vixen, it was because he didn't want to be held down by his future "fate".

One haunted by the past, one haunted by the future

[Arrakhat]

Well this shaped up nicely.

After the great opening with Gentleman Ghost and the somewhat unexpected arrival of Hawkman and Shadow Thief, we got to see some fun sniping between Vixen and Shayera. You can just tell that Vixen doesn't like her chances with John right now though, and learning that Hawkgirl is still love dovey for John is reassuring. Nice to know she's not madly in love with her stalker.

Shadow Thief's first fight scene was great. For a character I hated last time, he did a good job of stepping up to the plate as the villain. I also liked his attitude about leaving Vixen out of it. It's nice to see a clearer motivation this time.

The real reason i loved this episode though, was the well handled flashback and finding out that Shadow Thief had a real motivation last time and was as driven as Hawkman. S. Thief is completely redeemed from his two dimensional character in "Shadow of the Hawk."

Now for all those who are complaining because John is staying with Vixen: it won't last. We've already seen the future, and however GL feels right now, he clearly ends up with Shayera. Warhawk is the proof right there.

In short, *****, for an excellent near to last episode. Looks like next time we'll see Grodd and Lex fight each other. I can't wait.:anime:

[Archangel2385]

Why is now the time to do that though? The only thing that changed in regards to their relationship is they learned about a past life that may be relevant. Thus, if he broke up with Vixen in favor of Shayera now, he would be doing so simply because Destiny said that is what should happen. Is it really better for him to make a decision based on what the anchient past tells him to do instead of what feels right in the present? The anchient history may say they should be together, but it doesn't say when they should be together.
Your post highlights the entire problem I've been having with John . . . his obsession with destiny's control in his life. Destiny is not the problem here . . . John is.

When all is said and done, he loves Shayera, while his "love" for Vixen is questionable AT BEST. That, above and beyond everything else, is reason enough for John & Shayera to get back together . . . but rather than let what he's seen in the past AND the future confirm his, he's like, "Oh no, destiny won't control me." When will he realize that it's not destiny that controls his feelings, but HIM?

[James]

Your post highlights the entire problem I've been having with John . . . his obsession with destiny's control in his life. Destiny is not the problem here . . . John is.

When all is said and done, he loves Shayera, while his "love" for Vixen is questionable AT BEST. That, above and beyond everything else, is reason enough for John & Shayera to get back together . . . but rather than let what he's seen in the past AND the future confirm his, he's like, "Oh no, destiny won't control me." When will he realize that it's not destiny that controls his feelings, but HIM?

It is destiny which controls his feelings if they decide to change their entire lives and hurt those close to them purely because Destiny dictates that "no matter where you are now, you are MEANT to be with another..". That's not choice, that's being told.

I think John is wise to hold back and not suddenly unearth his relationship simply because destiny implies he should. Life is about freedom. That's the ultimate human struggle. Give away that and life is no longer your own. Very in character for a patriot of justice and freedom like John.

[Karkull]

He may love Shayera more than Mari, but it's that fear of being manipulated by fate that's making him cling to Mari even more.

Still, since Batman Beyond is the future, Green Lantern must give up his stance at some point. "Ancient History" is probably the only instance where they can get away with an ending like this and not annoy the fans. After all, could Friends have ended without Ross and Rachel hooking up? Because we know Warhawk is in the future, and that John and Shayera are the parents, we can "end" it here on that note. I think that it was a brave decision on behalf of the creative team to defy audience expectations and give them what they've wanted since Season Two.

[Jazzie]

The hold "puppet" thing seemed way out of character. He was a puppet for the corp and one for the guardians after all.

[Dens Maris]

The hold "puppet" thing seemed way out of character. He was a puppet for the corp and one for the guardians after all.

A soldier is not a puppet.

[Saru]

I thought it was a great episode, especially the Gentleman Ghost. The only part that really bugged me was the ultra-predictable part where Shadow-Thief tells Hawkman to split John's head but he cuts his bonds instead.

[Temple Fugate]

This was a pleasant surprise. Another episode that turned out better than the tagline suggested. Hawkman is given a little less two-dimensional-ness and the Hawkman/Shayera/John/Vixen quadrangle is more or less resolved for now. Even Shadowthief was justified in this ep. The last episode preview had me thinking "Why is Shadowthief with Hawkman again? Redundant much?"

Fullscreen is teh s uck.

Great writing and voice acting in this episode, espeically the out-of-costume moments at the Metro Tower and John's apartment. JLU hasn't felt like a "for adults too" show lately, and the non-superhero acting greatly improved the emotional/intellectual quality of this episode. The shot-for-shot reenactment of Shayera and John's kiss in the flashback was a great touch. Loved Gentleman Ghost's music. They even got Hector Elizondo to be Hath Set, which was an incredibly cool idea. A lot of parallels here, from King Arthur to Shayera/Hro Talek to Shayera/John/Hawkman.

Who's to say John doesn't marry Vixen, or at least continue dating her, for a long time? Maybe the reason he eventually goes back to Shayera is because Vixen is killed in combat or Vixen calls off the relationship. I don't think John's decision is dumb, he's in love with Vixen. What would you do in his situation?

Justice League 5x11: "Ancient History" - ****1/2

Let's hope the finale is even stronger than this ep.

[Archangel2385]

It is destiny which controls his feelings if they decide to change their entire lives and hurt those close to them purely because Destiny dictates that "no matter where you are now, you are MEANT to be with another..". That's not choice, that's being told.

I think John is wise to hold back and not suddenly unearth his relationship simply because destiny implies he should. Life is about freedom. That's the ultimate human struggle. Give away that and life is no longer your own. Very in character for a patriot of justice and freedom like John.
I disagree. John's always had a choice . . . he's just been afraid to make that choice because of what it could mean.

And we're talking about destiny so much that we're losing sight of the LOGIC of the situation . . . John loves Shayera, but not necessarily Vixen. I would think that a normal person would probably want to be with the person he loves, not simply likes or cares for. All this time, he's really been fighting the funk IMHO.

It really getting ridiculous now. John's honor is his worst enemy. What kind of boyfriend or significant other could he possibly be for Vixen when he still loves Shayera and hasn't moved on from her? That right there completely negates any chance of a lasting and fulfilling relationship. When he moves on from Shayera, THEN he can stay with Vixen, but until then, for her sake and his, he needs to LET . . . HER . . . GO.

Also, maybe I'm missing something, but why, oh why is ever saying John and Shayera will surely get back together?

Last time I checked, his presence in "The Once and Future Thing, Part II" is negated by BB's Bruce saying he doesn't remember any of what they were going through. But if he doesn't remember, but JLU's Batman will, that places the events of the mission firmly in the realm of alternate realities.

And then there's Epilogue . . . all those black-and-white scenes (including the one Warhawk was present in) actually didn't happen. If they did, it would create some peculiar plot holes in the episode, and so last time I checked, those scenes didn't actually occur.

Those are the only times Warhawk appears, but neither of them is canonically connected to the our JLU universe, so if that's the case, Warhawk will not necessarily come to be, so why is everyone saying John and Shayera will get back together, at least to create him?

[Lord Fate]

Who's to say John doesn't marry Vixen, or at least continue dating her, for a long time? Maybe the reason he eventually goes back to Shayera is because Vixen is killed in combat or Vixen calls off the relationship. I don't think John's decision is dumb, he's in love with Vixen. What would you do in his situation?

True

Seeing that Warhawk is born 25 to 30 years in the future we have no idea how long John and Mari stay together. AAMOF, there a chane that John could marry Mari and have children in the future.

Also nobody has ever said that John and Shayera stay together after she gives birth. Warhark could have been born after one night of passion.;)

I like the fact they left the story open:)

[James]

And we're talking about destiny so much that we're losing sight of the LOGIC of the situation . . . John loves Shayera, but not necessarily Vixen. I would think that a normal person would probably want to be with the person he loves, not simply likes or cares for. All this time, he's really been fighting the funk IMHO.

That's a big fan assumption. John does like Vixen. He doesn't see why he should suddenly throw his world upside on this information which means diddle squat. He knows he likes Shayera. He knew that before hand. He knew about Warhawk. No change there. He knew Shayera liked him. No change. John is a proud and honourable man. He's with Vixen, he likes Vixen and he's not going to make such a massive change and hurt people because destiny appears to be forcing him down that route.. and fans too. ;)



It really getting ridiculous now. John's honor is his worst enemy. What kind of boyfriend or significant other could he possibly be for Vixen when he still loves Shayera and hasn't moved on from her? That right there completely negates any chance of a lasting and fulfilling relationship. When he moves on from Shayera, THEN he can stay with Vixen, but until then, for her sake and his, he needs to LET . . . HER . . . GO.


Because he's made his choice. He's made his bed and he's not going to suddenly toss someone aside unless the situation proves utterly unworkable. That's fair enough. He enjoys his time with Vixen. He does care for Shayera but until that naturally plays out he's not making any changes since nothing has actually changed for him.


Last time I checked, his presence in "The Once and Future Thing, Part II" is negated by BB's Bruce saying he doesn't remember any of what they were going through. But if he doesn't remember, but JLU's Batman will, that places the events of the mission firmly in the realm of alternate realities.


That future was a mix of possibilities, you don't know what was accurate and what was not. Batman Beyond does happen. So does Warhawk, true, it doesn't mean it will certainly happen but it's a possibility and presented with a possibility it's only natural to define it as a probablity even though you have no idea of the odss.



And then there's Epilogue . . . all those black-and-white scenes (including the one Warhawk was present in) actually didn't happen. If they did, it would create some peculiar plot holes in the episode, and so last time I checked, those scenes didn't actually occur.


No, but The Call did.



Those are the only times Warhawk appears, but neither of them is canonically connected to the our JLU universe, so if that's the case, Warhawk will not necessarily come to be, so why is everyone saying John and Shayera will get back together, at least to create him?

Again, Warhawk is in The Call.

[Dens Maris]

I think too many people get so caught up in the "destiny's puppet" line that they miss what John says right afterward, so I'll put it in a quote:


Whatever the future holds, we'll make those choices ourselves.

But really, John isn't talking about himself when he says "I won't be destiny's puppet." He's talking about the love between him and Shayera, which he feels is far too precious to be reduced to a factor, a mere stroke of the sewing needle in the fabric of existence. He wants it to happen because he and Shayera want it to happen, not because someone in the future demands it must be so.

I mean, what kind of "love" would it be if he came back to Shayera just because he sees something that suggests he will in the future? "Well, hey, let's get back together, we know it's going to happen anyway, no sense delaying it." Except...that's really not what either of them want. It would be less honest than the relationship he currently has with Vixen.

Heck, if you ask me, John proved in this episode how deeply he loves Shayera with that decision.

[Arrakhat]

I disagree. John's always had a choice . . . he's just been afraid to make that choice because of what it could mean.

And we're talking about destiny so much that we're losing sight of the LOGIC of the situation . . . John loves Shayera, but not necessarily Vixen. I would think that a normal person would probably want to be with the person he loves, not simply likes or cares for. All this time, he's really been fighting the funk IMHO.

It really getting ridiculous now. John's honor is his worst enemy. What kind of boyfriend or significant other could he possibly be for Vixen when he still loves Shayera and hasn't moved on from her? That right there completely negates any chance of a lasting and fulfilling relationship. When he moves on from Shayera, THEN he can stay with Vixen, but until then, for her sake and his, he needs to LET . . . HER . . . GO.
Well you're assuming John's more than human, but he has his flaws and imperfections too. And I doubt he and Vixen only "care" for each other. Their relationship seemed deeper than that.


Also, maybe I'm missing something, but why, oh why is ever saying John and Shayera will surely get back together?

Last time I checked, his presence in "The Once and Future Thing, Part II" is negated by BB's Bruce saying he doesn't remember any of what they were going through. But if he doesn't remember, but JLU's Batman will, that places the events of the mission firmly in the realm of alternate realities.

And then there's Epilogue . . . all those black-and-white scenes (including the one Warhawk was present in) actually didn't happen. If they did, it would create some peculiar plot holes in the episode, and so last time I checked, those scenes didn't actually occur.

Those are the only times Warhawk appears, but neither of them is canonically connected to the our JLU universe, so if that's the case, Warhawk will not necessarily come to be, so why is everyone saying John and Shayera will get back together, at least to create him?
Well, tell me why Terry would imagine Warhawk in the black/white scenes in "Epilogue?" Does he spend his time imagining what the love-child of Shayera and John would have looked like? I doubt it. Unless he's really twisted.:ack:

Anyway, Warhawk is canon. He appearred in the BB episode "The Call," which is canon to JL/U.

[Lord Fate]

And we're talking about destiny so much that we're losing sight of the LOGIC of the situation . . . John loves Shayera, but not necessarily Vixen. I would think that a normal person would probably want to be with the person he loves, not simply likes or cares for. All this time, he's really been fighting the funk IMHO.

As James pointed out you're making a very big assumption. John has never said he didn't love Mari. You assuming just because he still has feeling for Shayera that he can't love Mari, which is not true.

[Archangel2385]

That's a big fan assumption. John does like Vixen. He doesn't see why he should suddenly throw his world upside on this information which means diddle squat. He knows he likes Shayera. He knew that before hand. He knew about Warhawk. No change there. He knew Shayera liked him. No change. John is a proud and honourable man. He's with Vixen, he likes Vixen and he's not going to make such a massive change and hurt people because destiny appears to be forcing him down that route.. and fans too. ;)
1. Never said he doesn't like Vixen.

2. He should have left Vixen the moment he became so unnerved by Shayera's presence. It's not fair to her, and he KNOWS this, which makes it all the more pitiful. I'm not even suggesting he immediately get back with Shayera, but he needs to really sort out his feelings, preferably alone without distractions IMHO.

If he chooses to stay with Vixen, it should be because he wants to and can be in a committed relationship WITHOUT constantly clinging to or being affected by his love for Shayera.

3. He seems to be ignoring destiny just to remain in control, but I just find the whole situation very frustrating in that he and "destiny" seem to want the same thing . . . Shayera (just my opinion). If he and "destiny" have the same plans, so be it.


Because he's made his choice. He's made his bed and he's not going to suddenly toss someone aside unless the situation proves utterly unworkable. That's fair enough. He enjoys his time with Vixen. He does care for Shayera but until that naturally plays out he's not making any changes since nothing has actually changed for him.
Fair enough, but as I said before, he should only stay with Vixen if he can do so without faltering because of his feelings for Shayera. Otherwise, he needs to let her go, because it's not fair to Vixen.


That future was a mix of possibilities, you don't know what was accurate and what was not. Batman Beyond does happen. So does Warhawk, true, it doesn't mean it will certainly happen but it's a possibility and presented with a possibility it's only natural to define it as a probablity even though you have no idea of the odss.
For me, especially after seeing how well John and Mari interact "out of the office," Warhawk's future remains a possibility and nothing more. There doesn't seem to be anything probable about his being born at this point.

As for "The Call," how is it canon to the JLU universe? People only seem to connect it to the JLU universe because of those 2 episodes that I've aleady mentioned, but neither of those episodes seemed to cement BB's JLU with our JLU. They definitely proved that Terry and Bruce exist, but as far as the JLU is concerned, they only appeared in various dream sequences ("Epilogue") or hypothetical situations ("The Once and Future Thing, Part II").

Well you're assuming John's more than human, but he has his flaws and imperfections too. And I doubt he and Vixen only "care" for each other. Their relationship seemed deeper than that.
I agree, but since he knows of his flaws, I say take time out to actually work on them, as he doesn't seem to have made much headway while in a relationship. Just my opinion.

Well, tell me why Terry would imagine Warhawk in the black/white scenes in "Epilogue?" Does he spend his time imagining what the love-child of Shayera and John would have looked like? I doubt it. Unless he's really twisted.:ack:
Honestly, I don't have an explanation for why those dream sequences occurred . . . my thing is, if they weren't real, what was the point of having them in the first place? Why have a BW sequence of him breaking into the Batcave to chew Bruce out, and then let the audience know "Oh yeah, that didn't actually happen."

As James pointed out you're making a very big assumption. John has never said he didn't love Mari. You assuming just because he still has feeling for Shayera that he can't love Mari, which is not true.
1. If you look at my post, I note that John doesn't necessarily love Vixen. That means that he may or may not love her, while we know John loves Shayera.

2. I have never said nor assumed that John couldn't love 2 women at once. However, I severely doubt he cares for Mari more so than Shayera. That is my assumption.

[Arrakhat]

As for "The Call," how is it canon to the JLU universe? People only seem to connect it to the JLU universe because of those 2 episodes that I've aleady mentioned, but neither of those episodes seemed to cement BB's JLU with our JLU. They definitely proved that Terry and Bruce exist, but as far as the JLU is concerned, they only appeared in various dream sequences ("Epilogue") or hypothetical situations ("The Once and Future Thing, Part II").
It's canon because it's part of the Timm-verse, just like STAS. And the fact that we've seen the JLU Beyond in two episodes just furthers the arguement that it's canon. From "Epilogue," we know that Terry did indeed become Batman in the future. From his imagination and suppositions about what would happen in different situations, (the "dream" sequences), we know that Warhawk, Aquagirl, the new GL, Shriek, Inque, Stalker, and a new Parasite exist in the future as well. Don't try to tell me he imagined all those heroes and villains. If Terry exists, so do his enemies and allies we saw in BB. That includes Warhawk who is confirmed to be GL and Shayera's son.
A=B=C. It all works out.

[Alpha Man]

Nice stuff, overall. Had something like this been done in JL (rather than the now JLU), this would have obviously been a two-partner. But man! What a two parter that would be, eh?! Hoo-ee!:anime: I was surprised, too, that John actually told Shayera about their son, but I was glad that the writers made that move. Shayera stories are always fun to watch! Ever since Starcrossed, her character is doubly interesting.;)

Major kudos to b.t. and the gang for delievering a stellar episode.:D

[James]

2. He should have left Vixen the moment he became so unnerved by Shayera's presence. It's not fair to her, and he KNOWS this, which makes it all the more pitiful. I'm not even suggesting he immediately get back with Shayera, but he needs to really sort out his feelings, preferably alone without distractions IMHO.

Should.. shouldn't. How many true relationships do you see which follow such objectivity? Very little. Furthermore, he never said never. He never said he wouldn't sort out his feelings. What he said is he refused to simple swing the situation around because Shayera knew what he already knew. The status quo remained unchanged and therefore he did not change the scenario based on.. well, very little.

Bottomline for John, is he wants any change or choice, to come from him not destiny. To make a choice made on the situation in this episode would not be his choice as his situation was the same before as it was after. Any flux on that choice at this point would simply because it was clear that destiny may dictate more of his destiny than he previous realised. Strangely, he doesn't want to change his circumstance on that point alone as the practical scenario isn't any different. It's actually very logical; you don't dump someone one the basis of, well, because destiny says so. Where goes the right of free choice?



If he chooses to stay with Vixen, it should be because he wants to and can be in a committed relationship WITHOUT constantly clinging to or being affected by his love for Shayera.


This is an entirely different point. We can't argue on how he should sort out his relationship anymore than we can anyother messed up couple. The only point here is that he sorts out his issues on Vixen and Shayera in HIS way, not because Destiny is pointing the way.



3. He seems to be ignoring destiny just to remain in control, but I just find the whole situation very frustrating in that he and "destiny" seem to want the same thing . . . Shayera (just my opinion). If he and "destiny" have the same plans, so be it.


No, he wants to see where life takes him based on the merits of choice, not where Destiny dictates he should go. It's not the same thing because he's not catagorically wanting his life dictated to him. Just because you love someone doesn't mean it's ultimately the right thing. He just wants to work through it in his way and not contrive his life on the basis of a philosophy or powers beyond.


As for "The Call," how is it canon to the JLU universe? People only seem to connect it to the JLU universe because of those 2 episodes that I've aleady mentioned, but neither of those episodes seemed to cement BB's JLU with our JLU. They definitely proved that Terry and Bruce exist, but as far as the JLU is concerned, they only appeared in various dream sequences ("Epilogue") or hypothetical situations ("The Once and Future Thing, Part II").

Erm, BB is canon with JLU. JLU is based on the idea from the Call. Epilogue is linked to JLU through Cadmus. The fact that GL recognizes Static in TOAFT points his encounter in SS. SS has met BB. So again we can link it there. That's before you take in the Royal Flush Gang's origin in Wild Cards, which is linked to BB's Epilogue future. And of course the RFG appear in Batman Beyond. We also have the pre Zeta robot designs in Secret Society. We have the JLU becoming the future JLU. BB is canon whether you like it or not. It's set up to be. You can pick at reasons why you don't want it to be, but those sort of arguments can be used to decanon any DCAU cartoon.

You can remove it from personal canon, but from official canon it's there. Besides, the dream sequences in Epilogue have to be based on something than just dreams. Terry has to have conjured the image of Warhawk from somewhere. They are based on characters Terry is aquainted with. The Call is canon I'm afraid. :)

[MachSabre]

One thing I've learned in life is that love, is not logical. Love and logic has about as much to do with each other as Alternators and Fruit Baskets.

John's choice made perfect sense to me.

[Yojimbo]

Ancient Egypt in the DCAU was a messed up place. A succubus worshipped as a goddess, a misguided Thanagarian conquerer, Teth Adam (later Black Adam we can all hope) and ol Nabu somewhere.

The in joke lines were in usual working order. Another wacky use for Nth metal, interfering with dimensional shifting! Chalk that one up. The whip line...:eek:

[Arrakhat]

Ancient Egypt in the DCAU was a messed up place. A succubus worshipped as a goddess, a misguided Thanagarian conquerer, Teth Adam (later Black Adam we can all hope) and ol Nabu somewhere.

The in joke lines were in usual working order. Another wacky use for Nth metal, interfering with dimensional shifting! Chalk that one up. The whip line...:eek:
You can read what you want into the whip line (I thought of it too), but remember that Hawkman was probably talking about his past wife's choice of weapons. I hope.:sweat:;)

[The Weed Of Cri]

From the Department of Crazy Theories, Re: Warhawk: Jon and Vixen get married. They want to have a child, but they know a pregnancy would mess up her modeling career. So they convince Shayera to be a surrogate. Meanwhile, the Cadmus Project decides the world needs more Thanagarians (don't ask me why; I'm still trying to figure out why they need more Batmen, and I did warn you this was a crazy theory), and they switch ovas during the in vitro fertilization. Nine months later, little Rex is born with wings, and Jon and Shayera have a lot of explaning to do and no real ideas on how to do it.

[Lord Fate]

Never said he doesn't like Vixen.
Why can't he be in love with Vixen?


He should have left Vixen the moment he became so unnerved by Shayera's presence. It's not fair to her, and he KNOWS this, which makes it all the more pitiful. I'm not even suggesting he immediately get back with Shayera, but he needs to really sort out his feelings, preferably alone without distractions IMHO.

See that doesn't make sense. Why would he leave Mari just because he's not sure about his feeling for Shayera.Appearently John has feeling for Mari and these feeling are storng enough to make him stay with her.

As I pointed out earlier, there no reason Mari and John won't be together for the next 25 to 30 years.. Who knews they might be together after Warhawk is born.


If you look at my post, I note that John doesn't necessarily love Vixen. That means that he may or may not love her, while we know John loves Shayera.

Again, I'm not sure why you would think he doesn't love her.

Just my two cents

[Yojimbo]

You can read what you want into the whip line (I thought of it too), but remember that Hawkman was probably talking about his past wife's choice of weapons. I hope.:sweat:;)

Yes, that's a good explanation. Curse our foul 21st century thought processes. :cool:

[Marvin Tikvah]

I really liked the way it ended, I would have been really upset if in the end GL decided to get with Hawkgirl. It would have seem cliche IMO. "Destiny and the past say we should be together so let's be together with absolutely no thought on what this really means to us and others (Mari)." It would have made the characters seem less realistic and made the episode fan service to me.
Jon seems to want things happen but he wants to choose when its time for it to happen and not force his life to be a certain way right now. Its a smart decision I think, to life life as you see fitting without closing any doors. He never said he would not be with Hawkgirl in the future just that for the time being he feels that he should be with Mari. Maybe he thinks he needs to see this relationship through.

[Merlin Missy]

I have discussed this episode to death and I've mostly washed my hands of it. But a few notes nonetheless:

1. Adultery. Murder. Suicide. Cohabitating couples. Now can we stop pretending this is a children's show?

2. For the record, I neither expected nor really wanted to see John and Shayera make up (kiss, yes) by the end of the series. I do think John made the right choice at the end of the episode, and that it finally proved he does have a pair. Also, it's way tacky to break up with someone who's in the hospital. :p That said, I feel really cheated of the scene where he told Mari and she dumped his sorry ass. Because with everything that he has done to her and put her through, this should be the last straw. And since we don't get to see that, the story remains incomplete. Not "unfinished because we can't tie up all the loose ends" but actually incomplete. The character arc remains a line, and the gorram triangle stays in the same holding pattern it's been in since TOaFT. It's exasperating, and worse, kind of pointless. This is an action show, as people keep pointing out ad nauseum. The number of fans who watch the show because of this particular 'ship would have trouble filling the smoking section at Shoney's. So teasing it out forever (as this ends up doing) is like trying to claim Sam and Diane status for Frasier and Lilith. And, just ... No.

3. The flashback scenes made me cry. It has been so long since the present incarnations of those characters could laugh together, spend time happy in each other's company, and to watch the horse-riding scene was both beautiful and painful because we are never, ever going to see John and Shayera that happy together again.

4. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Geoff Johns (and to whatever applicable extent, Matt Wayne) for Act One of this story. The two women working out together and hanging out as friends. The foreshadowing with the poisoning joke. Most importantly, the very very first and only time we have seen John and Mari together as a couple and actually happy together. It's the first time I can actually believe that he does love her adn that it could work out between them. To give everyone some perspective on why this is important, please note that of all the various couples dating in the DCAU, the only couples who have been consistently (as in, admitting they're seeing each other, not dating anyone else in-between, etc.) dating longer are Lois and Clark and Joker and Harley. And I can't say for certain about Lois and Clark. A year and a half, two years of story time, and we finally get a glimpse as to why Mari would want to stay with a man who ignores her every time his ex is in the room.

5. Very much not mine, but someone else I was discussing with did some research on the language of flowers and thought that the flower Bashari gave Chayara was a daylily. Among the various meanings included "motherhood," so perhaps a throwaway reference to the thought she was going to get her baby after all. Anyway. Thought it was interesting.

6. I called it on ST being a projection from Carter. *does the Dance of Being Right*

7. There is no 7.

8. Shayera at the end was perfect. In "Hunter's Moon" we saw her declare her intentions, but here, she goes to Batman, and very clearly sayd, "Tell me about my son." She's claimed him, just as much as John claimed him in TOaFT with "Get away from my kid!" At that moment, Warhawk is already real to her, and I don't think I need to go into what a mother will do for her child. The fight is officially on.

9. J. O. H. N. This is not difficult, people. Jon Stewart is on the Daily Show. Different guy.

10. Bruce is going to kill the next person who walks up to him looking for relationship advice.

All in all, this was a beautiful episode, carefully crafted and wonderfully executed. Pity it ends Act Four of the play. I would have loved to have seen Act Five. I came back to the fandom because I wanted to see Act Five after I left when the ball was dropped on Dick and Babs and Bruce and Selina. Fool me twice, I guess. Silly Merlin.

MM

[Arrakhat]

Yes, that's a good explanation. Curse our foul 21st century thought processes. :cool:
Yeah, we're corrupted by society.:D

So just wondering, was I the only one who thought Shadow Thief was going to be the reincarnation of Hawkman's servant? I'm so glad they avoided that cliche...

[Archangel2385]

It's canon because it's part of the Timm-verse, just like STAS. And the fact that we've seen the JLU Beyond in two episodes just furthers the arguement that it's canon. From "Epilogue," we know that Terry did indeed become Batman in the future. From his imagination and suppositions about what would happen in different situations, (the "dream" sequences), we know that Warhawk, Aquagirl, the new GL, Shriek, Inque, Stalker, and a new Parasite exist in the future as well. Don't try to tell me he imagined all those heroes and villains. If Terry exists, so do his enemies and allies we saw in BB. That includes Warhawk who is confirmed to be GL and Shayera's son.
A=B=C. It all works out.
Oh, okay, I got it now :D , thanks.

Should.. shouldn't. How many true relationships do you see which follow such objectivity? Very little. Furthermore, he never said never. He never said he wouldn't sort out his feelings. What he said is he refused to simple swing the situation around because Shayera knew what he already knew. The status quo remained unchanged and therefore he did not change the scenario based on.. well, very little.
1. Honestly, I wish more relationships were looked at objectively. Far too often, I've seen people act with their heart alone . . . last time I checked, the body would die with the brain; ya kinda need to use both :p.

2. Never said he said he wouldn't, I just personally feel he has too many distractions around him to sort out his feelings.

3. Your "status quo" statement = hand that turns the light in my head. It makes a lot of sense, but also highlights what bugs me the most about the episode . . . the status quo remained the same. Just like with Teen Titans' season finale, I expected the status quo to change in some major way, but instead . . . nothing (at least that we can see). After what, 5 seasons of development, and STILL we can't get (on-screen) resolution, yeah, I'd say that's where my frustration is.

Oh well, moving on in life . . .

No, he wants to see where life takes him based on the merits of choice, not where Destiny dictates he should go. It's not the same thing because he's not catagorically wanting his life dictated to him. Just because you love someone doesn't mean it's ultimately the right thing. He just wants to work through it in his way and not contrive his life on the basis of a philosophy or powers beyond.
Fair enough . . . John can steer that ship anywhere he wants . . . as long as he runs aground on Hawk Island ;) .

One thing I've learned in life is that love, is not logical.
Tell me about it . . . I just wish people would learn to use their hearts AND heads together more often.

Why can't he be in love with Vixen?
He could be, but I don't think so. In many (dare I say most) of the scenes we've seen them in (which often also involve Shayera), she is brushed off in favor of giving Shayera attention.

This episode marks only the second time we've seen them "out of the office" and the only vibes I get from John is that he definitely sees her as a friend (friendship is the foundation of any relationship) and is mentally & physically attracted to her (which moves this past "just friends"). But love . . . sure they have the foundation for a lasting relationship and then so, but it still doesn't feel like quite enough. Even if it were love, though, I seriously doubt it would surpass his feelings for Shayera, but once again, just my opinion.


See that doesn't make sense. Why would he leave Mari just because he's not sure about his feeling for Shayera.Appearently John has feeling for Mari and these feeling are storng enough to make him stay with her. As I pointed out earlier, there no reason Mari and John won't be together for the next 25 to 30 years.
Let me put it this way, if my partner had unresolved feelings for another, I'd tell them that they need to go resolve those feelings by themselves. Clearly, my presence would probably only complicate the situation, but more important, I want someone who wants me, and me alone (yeah, I'm possessive like that).

In addition, I honestly believe that the ONLY reason he's stayed with Mari this long is out of fear of hurting her feelings. He may love Mari, but she does not have his heart. That is a problem IMHO.


Again, I'm not sure why you would think he doesn't love her.
Just my two cents
Mainly because of a lack of on-screen evidence IMHO. To me, love is too strong a word in regards to them. Possible, but not quite probable.

[90'sCartoonMan]

There really shouldn't be a debate about whether or not Warhawk is in continuity with the main DCAU. Going along with the Batman Beyond ties, it seems like the last episode "Far From Home" proved that time doesn't change, there are no alternate futures, just the one. Supergirl never made it back from her mission in the future, that was history to the LOSH. As was Warhawk being the son of Green Lantern.

We don't know the circumstances. Maybe John and Mari break up next month and he gets together with Shayera for good. Maybe John marries Vixen and something happens to her that leads him back to Shayera. John loves Shayera, John loves Mari. Staying with her is his heart talking, it's not just a "screw you" to fate. Besides, a guy can love two women. If GL found himself at the business end of the Black Mercy, he'd wake up in bed next to Mayera.


8. Shayera at the end was perfect. In "Hunter's Moon" we saw her declare her intentions, but here, she goes to Batman, and very clearly sayd, "Tell me about my son." She's claimed him, just as much as John claimed him in TOaFT with "Get away from my kid!" At that moment, Warhawk is already real to her, and I don't think I need to go into what a mother will do for her child. The fight is officially on.
Well put. That one line is all we need to know about Shayera's feelings about having a son in the future (and we know in the past she was into the idea of having kids).


10. Bruce is going to kill the next person who walks up to him looking for relationship advice.

All in all, this was a beautiful episode, carefully crafted and wonderfully executed. Pity it ends Act Four of the play. I would have loved to have seen Act Five. I came back to the fandom because I wanted to see Act Five after I left when the ball was dropped on Dick and Babs and Bruce and Selina. Fool me twice, I guess. Silly Merlin.
Well to be fair, Bruce reached out to John in "Starcrossed" (and made more sense than J'onn and Wally), and that's why John went back to him for advice in "The Once and Future Thing" and "Shadow of the Hawk".

Speaking of Act Fives, you're right. Assuming the next two episodes don't strictly deal with relationships (and, I admit, I could be wrong and this show does have a history of surprising me), we don't get to see Superman tell Lois that he's Clark, who knows WHAT happened with Bruce and Selina, and does Wally get to date Fire or Linda at all?

[DLM]

What to say? One of the rare episodes to get a perfect 5 stars from me. This was a fun episode to watch and a more than adequate coda to the Hawkgirl/Lantern saga. The fact that it doesnt end it on a sappy, syrupy-sweet cliche is much appreciated.

This was a Shakesperean type reimagining of the Golden Age Hawk legacy, and the addition of a John Stewart parallel in the past was genius. The mention of Teth-Adam was a sweet little treat for Cap. Marvel fans.
And I got my wish: finally in this love quadrangle story, John Stewart shows some balls! (if you'll pardon the coarse expression).

Also, Im usually more about the story than the visuals, but I loved the fight scenes with shadow thief, some great, interesting stuff there.

[BillA1]

I wanted to like this episode much more than I did. However, there were some things about this program that just flat out failed with me.

The really good stuff:

- This was as an adult show as I've ever watched under a Y-7 rating and the creative staff is to be applauded for getting in the very mature themes of loyalty, betrayal, murder and suicide. Well Done.

- The VA's were as sharp as ever and made every scene work. All of them!!

My two disappointments:

- John comes off as a d**k and a playa wannabe. A lot of people have posted how John didn't want to give in to destiny (and words to that effect) so he's making a good choice by staying with Vixen. Well, John can stay with Mari for whatever reason he wanted, but he became stupid and needlessly cruel when he tells Shayera in so many words that he saw a future where they have children, but he doesn't want it now because it's forced on him and walks away, as if he was the only one who could make a decision on that. There was no need for him to tell her at all if he planned to stay with Mari except to play "Gotcha," with Shayera.

They took a classy and powerful John Stewart from "Secret Origins" and turned him into a jerk. And Vixen should leave him when she hears the reason he wants to stay with her is to avoid or delay a future he doesn't believe in with Shayera.

Secondly all of the discussion of Warhawk's parentage is unproductive and moot. The Warhawk who was Stewart's son was in the same reality in which Terry was killed and Hal Jordan appeared. That reality was destroyed when Batman reset Chronos' belt. There is a Warhawk in "The Call" and in "Epilogue." But there is no reason now to believe he is GL/HG's son, particularity since he appears 50 to 65 years from now. And before someone shouts that the writers said GL/HG are the parents, I would remind them that author intent is not canon. Canon is what is on the screen. Period. And canon says only that a hero name Warhawk exists and that the Rex Stewart Warhawk disappeared with the dead Terry McGinnis and the Bruce Wayne who didn't remember traveling to the future.

- The hieroglyphics in SoTH and AH tell the story of a Winged Woman and a man wearing a wing harness. Since the tomb in SoTH belonged to the dead Thanagarians and they never wore such a harness when alive, why would a man wearing such a device be painted on the walls holding the hands of a female Thanagarian? Why would such a device even exist?

The Egyptian scenes really make this episode for me, but I wish John had been the hero I really liked in Secret Origins and not the incompetent man who wears the most powerful weapon in the universe and gets his arm broken because he wants to get in a fist fight with a shadow.

Bill :cool:

[Luke Cage]

....with nice pacing. They fit an interesting story and good fight scenes into a 30 min ep without it feeling rushed. Couple of things though:


Nice fight although I'm shocked how GL keeps getting punked out. An experienced warrior with the most powerful weapon in the universe and he can't take on Shadowthief? He should have blown SH apart when he got engulfed! Oh well, slave to the story and all.

1. So, So True. I'm changing my avatar. GL is the biggest wimp in tights. He gets his butt whooped more than any character on the show. Lois Lane wins more fights. He's supposed to be one of the MOST POWERFUL members of the league. Instead, he's the most hospitalized and confused. (Just one show where the green bubble doesn't burst. Is that too much to ask??)

2. As I recall, first it was Katma Tui (sp) of the GL corps, then Hro of Thanagar, then Vixen, then Carter Hall. Each season seems to bring a new/old lover into the mix to create conflict in a relationship that doesn't seem to have advanced very much in the past four years. They are kinda right back where they started; together but not quite together.

3. I'm starting to appreciate the brevity of the Supergirl/Brainiac courtship. Kara made a life altering decision based on "history/destiny" just last week. John is still struggling.

Yep, definately changing the avatar.
:)

[William C. Maune]

John comes off as a d**k and a playa wannabe. A lot of people have posted how John didn't want to give in to destiny (and words to that effect) so he's making a good choice by staying with Vixen. Well, John can stay with Mari for whatever reason he wanted, but he became stupid and needlessly cruel when he tells Shayera in so many words that he saw a future where they have children, but he doesn't want it now because it's forced on him and walks away, as if he was the only one who could make a decision on that. There was no need for him to tell her at all if he planned to stay with Mari except to play "Gotcha," with Shayera.

James and Dens Maris have already stated the argument so well, but to add some more: At this point Shayera has just seen the same past that John has just seen and she has just found out about their son. If John tells her right then that he wants to get back together then, whether he actually says it or not, he would be basically telling her that he wants to get back together because destiny says so. However, I think she would rather be told that he wants to get back together because he thinks (and she thinks) the time is right.

All they gained here was knowledge of the past and the future; nothing was added to or subtracted from the relationships in the present. He told Shayera about their future child because he didn't feel it was right for only himself to know. She could have taken it as a "gotcha," but there was nothing in the episode to indicate that.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Well finally we are going to get conclusion to the Shayera triangle.
Maybe, now we will figure out where Carter Hal really came from and why is he so obsessed with Shayera! :ack: The last episode I remember he was lying to her about their origins and Batman interfered to help defeat the Shadow Thief! :p

Who is the tricky ghostly villan, whom John has trouble defeating without Hawkman's help? :confused:

Shayera and Mari in the gym excersizing was priceless! :D
I don't think John really loves Mari all the that much, did anyone notice how pushy she is around him?! :shrug:

Can someone please tell me more information about the Shadow Thief?
I can't believe John wasn't able to defeat villan by himself and with Mari's help! :eek:
Why did Mari called Shayera and not anybody else from Justice League to help find John or she didn't ask anyone else to come and help them?! :confused:
After all there are so many Superheroes! :yawn:

The fighting scenes were Great, and very nicely animated!
So far I like this episode better then the Supergirl one. I'm glad we got to see it in the USA! :D

Why is Shadow Thief after only three of them and not other members of the league?
I guess I will get my answer shortly...
So reincarnation Shayera from Egypt wanted to have a child and Katar was to busy being ruler!
She sure dumped him faster then I thaught for their Best friend!
Woah! that revelation was weird! :ack:
I never suspected Shadow Theif and Carter Hal to be one and the same! :eek:
So, is his character evil or good? :sweat:
He seems split on his decisions! :yawn:
At first I believed that Carter was going to destroy John without any remorse! :sad:
I don't get why did the he split himself up into two different people? To win the love of Shayera?! :shrug:
John finally told Shayera what he saw in the future. :p


I liked this episode because, it tied up loose ends from the previous episodes.:anime:
Am I the only one who go tth evibe of Romeo and Juliet/Cleopatra from this episode? :rolleyes:

Right now we only have the JLU two part finale left, right?
Sometimes, I wish for Toonami to be on Every day, but that would get boring fast. :sweat:

[Lord Fate]

What I found kind of interesting was that Vixen was actually injured for a long period of time. Most of her injuries can easily be healed by the Tantu Totem.

I guess falling Dino bones are greater then Wonder Woman and Grandy.:sad:

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Cool episode that had to pack way too much stuff into way too small a space. I agree with Maxie -- the stuff in "Shadow of the Hawk" and "Ancient History" could have formed a backstory of the entire season. It was answered as well as could be hoped, given the external constraints, but I can't help but feel disappointed by the end result.

This is not meant to reflect badly on Matt Wayne, Geoff Johns, or any of the rest of the JLU crew. They took lemons and make lemonade, and I'm just complaining that the original lemons were too sour.

I run hot and cold on Geoff Johns, but he has never lost the Cool Points he gained with me for taking the unworkable mess that was Hawkman continuity and turning it into something coherent enough to bring the character back in the DCU. I can only imagine that he was immensely relieved to be able to tell a story about Hawkman that didn't have to deal with all that.


8. Shayera at the end was perfect. In "Hunter's Moon" we saw her declare her intentions, but here, she goes to Batman, and very clearly sayd, "Tell me about my son." She's claimed him, just as much as John claimed him in TOaFT with "Get away from my kid!" At that moment, Warhawk is already real to her, and I don't think I need to go into what a mother will do for her child. The fight is officially on.

Was anybody else kind of expecting her to pound Batman, saying, "You saw MY SON in the FUTURE, and you didn't TELL ME??!?" In hindsight, I like the way they did this better, and I like this expansion on the real weight on the lines.


9. J. O. H. N. This is not difficult, people. Jon Stewart is on the Daily Show. Different guy.

Are you sure? There's some times when I think Daily Show Stewart has kind of a greenish cast on my TV :D.

-- Ed/Ace

[Alpha Flight]

"Blackest night always conquers brightest day." HAHA Didn't the Shadow Thief seem somewhat cool but ultimately lame? He just chased after desire which might seem like fun but would eventually get boring! Passions filled seem most satisfying when some personal sacrifice is involved.
With the JL doesn't Hawkman seem like the perfect fit? I didn't see the first episode with him in it but he seems pretty cool except for his obsession with Hawkgirl.

[Alex Weitzman]

Ancient History

It's so undignified to engage in the back'n'forth of the affairs of the heart - which is, of course, exactly as it should be. In the perfect-world version of love, you strip away falsely-constructed dignity to show who you are underneath, and as your lover does the same, you two incomplete and imperfect people join in a complete and perfect union. Still, that's an idyllic and therefore rare conclusion, and so sometimes dignity is lost in useless means. The John/Shayera storyline has been about a lot of lost dignity on many ends, and even the bystanders and supporting members of the situation find themselves becoming part of the endless ping-pong match. What Ancient History brings to the table is that dignity, restoring it for almost everybody in the game.

(Oh, wait, before all the analysis, some quick albeit necessary review-like comments: Dos Santos does it again!; Boy, that's one great cast!; Geoff Johns and Matt Wayne ink up a killer one!; Love that flashback!; Sure, it coulda been longer, but all great cinema is too short! Okay, moving on...)

First off, there's the question about Hawkman. We see our first restoration (or maybe in this case, introduction) of dignity with Shadow-Thief, a character that I lightly condemned earlier this season for having the depth of a shadow. Count me among the suckered. It was all an act, a manner of performance being done for our (and their) benefit, so to give Hawkman an archnemesis and allow him to look all the more magnificent in the light of the hero. But his real identity and purpose makes him all the more imposing and dangerous a villain, enacting a constructed little play so that Hawkman can have his darkest desires. For Hawkman, it must be noted, truly is just a confused fanboy. It's a brilliant twist - by Carter Hall being severed in twain into Hawkman and Shadow-Thief, two different varieties of fan mentality can be in play at the same time. Hawkman is the twinkle-eyed kind of fan, the one who imagines himself the best buddy of the male hero and the best boyfriend of the female hero (Carter shares a certain overzealousness with Billy Batson in his attempts to be friendly). Shadow-Thief is the spurned fan, the one who hates the objects of his desire - note how he even refers to Hawkgirl as "that Thanagarian harpy". He is the living embodiment of Carter's disappointment and frustration at not being Shayera's man. With the two separate, each can act to the fullest of their intentions without the other tempering it with an opposite edge.

In fact, consider this: as marvelous as the flashback in the second act of Ancient History is, I ask you....what proof do we have that it was real? Think about it for a moment. Isn't it just an absolutely perfect little setup for Carter? Shayera is his wife; John is his best friend. Both of them are beholden to him before the two fall inappropriately in love. And then they die at the hands of a convenient fourth interloper (Hath-Set), which allows Carter's only crime to be one of loving Shayera so much that their betrayal causes him to mutter curses under his breath. In the end, Carter's Egyptian analogue is the cleanest. How conveeeenient. (And frankly, even if that stuff did actually happen, there's still no proof of reincarnation.) And that's quite the point, methinks - they're just getting the same stuff from a broken Thanagarian device. That it mirrors Starcrossed, down to Hector Elizondo's voice coming out of a Kraggar parallel, is all the more proof that perhaps the device is just feedbacking and bouncing off of memories from those who touch it. Shadow-Thief, like Hath-Set, is a convenient fourth player whose presence allows Carter to be blameless of wrongdoing. He is Carter's worst fanboy ideals realized, but as long as he's in a separate body, Hawkman can avoid claiming responsibility. Once Shadow-Thief and Hawkman are whole in Carter once more, though, Carter must recognize his baser emotions and act on logical stimuli - which, then, is where Carter Hall/Hawkman's dignity is restored.

But hey, what about that crazy love triangle, huh? Mari/Vixen is the one player who lost almost no dignity in this situation, except for maybe being a little strong on the sexual side in earlier episodes. But that was over by Hunter's Moon, where she welcomed Shayera into her own group of friends and simply let the unspoken challenge stand: Try it if you dare. But John Stewart, on the other hand, has been just plain hornswoggled all this stuff. Back in my Shadow of the Hawk review, I said that Carter was embarrassing the hell out of Stewart, because even if Hall was all mind-wonky, he's still the only guy making a real move. Stewart here makes his move. And I approve of it. I've been a John/Shayera fan since War World, and I totally want to see them together. But the fact is that John would look like a serious dick if his relationship with Vixen was painted as being so disposable. We only got a hint of John and Mari's natural relationship early in Wake the Dead; since then, we've only been afforded John's awkwardness and confusion. That's storytelling, unfortunately; we don't get to see much happy-happy dating because we need the time to talk about the conflicts. Ancient History affords us some alone time with Mari and John before Shadow-Thief attacks, and it's amazing how effective that scene is. In one fell swoop, the GL/Vixen relationship has love, meaning, and dignity. And so when John Stewart makes his decision to not throw that away just because destiny seems to say so, he himself makes a very successful grab at dignity. We all know he loves Shayera - he says as much himself. But lest we forget, this is a man who battles internally with himself on a daily basis on the question of who is more important - the ring or the ringbearer? John Stewart will not simply be a conduit of Lantern energy, but a warrior comprised of his own virtues and victories. Similarly, he will not be a conduit of future history, but a man who sees his relationships through to the end (something he knows he doesn't have the best history of doing) and will come to love in an appropriate and honestly-emotional manner.

Which leaves us Shayera. While the historical flashback may or may not be true, it reminds us of a fact of Shayera's romantic history: she suffers from not admitting the truth about herself to herself quick enough to avoid breaking multiple hearts. If she were more honest with herself in Starcrossed, the trouble with Hro Talak would have been less drawn-out. The challenge from Vixen is one that taunts Shayera to admit to herself that she wants to fight for her man. John may have been idling in regards to his admittances to Shayera, but so was she, and so both are guilty of the crime. The difference is, though, that John met someone else and came into that relationship honestly enough as well. Shayera hasn't even tried. The fate of Shayera in Ancient History, as she begins to actively seek out knowledge of the future with her and John (as personified by Warhawk), is that she is restored to enough dignity to restate her interest in the outcome, but she is still the one who hasn't told anybody a real decision of hers yet. She makes the mistake in her last scene with John of implying that they just sorta should be together, based on the future. It's a bloodless call, one made out of obligation, not unlike her continuance of a betrothal to Hro upon his arrival in Starcrossed. So, no, it's true that Ancient History doesn't put a final curtain on the John/Shayera story. Even granting that Dwayne McDuffie has insisted that Warhawk is a foregone conclusion, it's not the same as a cinematic representation of that finale. But I'm not about to blame a great episode for not hurrying a storyline inappropriately; it's not Ancient History's fault that the show isn't continuing (at least, in its current form). This was the best next step in this romantic drama, and because it does all of its participants so much justice, it elevates them back to a dignified plain, one that doesn't make me roll my eyes and wonder when they'll just get on with it. I'll toast to that.

[Vixen]

When I first heard about this episode (actually I read a few spoilers), I thought that this was gonna blow chunks. Oddly enough, it didn't. (I guess it''s best to view things for yourself, instead of going on hearsay). Anywho, I'm glad that this eppy has gotten rid of the tri-, excuse me, quadrangle that premiered in Shadow of the Hawk. I've never been a fan of such storylines b/c they get stale real fast.

IMHO, I think that Mari and Carter were both given the short end of the stick. Why? If OAFT's future is actually gonna happen, then GL goes w/HG (either permenently or it's a one night stand), so exactly where does that leave Mari? Unless she's the kind of girl that doesn't have a problem w/man-sharing (and I didn't receive that impression), exactly what is the point? GL doesn't want to be "destiny's puppet", but it seem as if HG doesn't have ANY problem w/that (check out her facial expression when GL reveals that they have a son in the future). Some would argue that she still loves him, & maybe she does, but does anyone want their future already spelled out for them? And on Carter's end, I felt sorry for him. Liking someone & them not reciprocating hurts, a lot, so when he just up & walked away, I felt sorry for the guy.

The whole "GL & HG being lovers through the millenia" :rolleyes2 thing was corny, for lack of another word. It was bad enough when Hawkman was screaming about being a reincarnated Egyptian ruler, but the writer tipped the scales toward absurdity when he placed GL into the mix. And did I just hear the word "harlot" in a kid's show?!:eek: The whole flashback scene w/adultery, and even murder helped answer anyone's questions who wondered why the show came on at 10:30 pm.

This also brings into question whether OAFT's future really is the future, as far GL is concerned. Since in the future time that Bats & GL went to, the future Bats was killed by the DeeDees. Since that obviously didn't happen, is it really true that Warhawk is GL & HG's son? In FFH, Bouncing Boy is about to state that GL is the father of...but GL cuts him off. What if Bouncing Boy was going to say someone other than Warhawk? Just food for thought.

***1/2/*****


I Secondly all of the discussion of Warhawk's parentage is unproductive and moot. The Warhawk who was Stewart's son was in the same reality in which Terry was killed and Hal Jordan appeared. That reality was destroyed when Batman reset Chronos' belt. There is a Warhawk in "The Call" and in "Epilogue." But there is no reason now to believe he is GL/HG's son, particularity since he appears 50 to 65 years from now. And before someone shouts that the writers said GL/HG are the parents, I would remind them that author intent is not canon. Canon is what is on the screen. Period. And canon says only that a hero name Warhawk exists and that the Rex Stewart Warhawk disappeared with the dead Terry McGinnis and the Bruce Wayne who didn't remember traveling to the future.

That's exactly the same thing that I was thinking, but I hadn't read through all the pages yet. What is it that they say about great minds...:D

[Gpoliceman]

I dont buy that Rex Stewart is John/Hawkgirl's son ONLY in the alternate reality established in "Once and Future Time".

The writers of JLU obviously did not go through ALL THIS TROUBLE of cooking up complications for John/Hawkgirl's love story in regards to their future son, just to later say "oh, well Rex Stewart is just their son in an alternate reality that Batman destroyed"

Besides, John was mentioned as being Warhawk's son in "Far from Home", and that was just the future, not an alternate reality.

It is CONCRETE! Rex is John/Hawkgirl's son. No doubt about it.

Greg

[Hyper Shadow X]

Any person with shadow powers is great.

[James]

Secondly all of the discussion of Warhawk's parentage is unproductive and moot. The Warhawk who was Stewart's son was in the same reality in which Terry was killed and Hal Jordan appeared. That reality was destroyed when Batman reset Chronos' belt. There is a Warhawk in "The Call" and in "Epilogue." But there is no reason now to believe he is GL/HG's son, particularity since he appears 50 to 65 years from now. And before someone shouts that the writers said GL/HG are the parents, I would remind them that author intent is not canon. Canon is what is on the screen. Period. And canon says only that a hero name Warhawk exists and that the Rex Stewart Warhawk disappeared with the dead Terry McGinnis and the Bruce Wayne who didn't remember traveling to the future.

Yes, but then you could go further and say than unless it's implicitly said on screen, nothing is canon. It seems a push for the audience to assume that a man who looks like Warhawk (in the Call and TOAFT), who has the same name, role and identity, isn't - because it was an alternate universe. The fact that Bruce, Terry and the Joker gang are clearly the same people as in BB/ROTJ as in TOAFT would imply you aren't taking a massive leap in presuming Warhawk is the same.

I won't even try to argue your standpoint isn't possible. This is fiction ANYTHING is possible. That said, some things are more probable and the suggestion that the Warhawk in both The Call and TOAFT are different is a little implausible so far as the intent of narrative is concerned. Warhawk is exists in BB. We know he exists. We know he is the son of Hawkgirl and GL. It's what makes AH such an emotionally driven story; we know how it ends, we just don't know how it gets there.

[Silly McGooses]

I'm not sure whether I liked the reincarnation aspect (just like I wasn't too big on all kinds of crazy aliens none of the characters were surprised at in JL Season 1), but over all a very nice episode. ****1/2 from me.

[Alex Weitzman]

I'm not sure whether I liked the reincarnation aspect...

There's still no guarantee that any actual reincarnation took place.

[Sue]

Maybe, now we will figure out where Carter Hal really came from and why is he so obsessed with Shayera! :ack: Well, look at her! Can you blame him? ;)

Who is the tricky ghostly villan, whom John has trouble defeating without Hawkman's help? :confused: Gentleman Ghost

Can someone please tell me more information about the Shadow Thief? In the comics, he's criminal Carl Sands. He gets his abilities from a suit made with Thanagarian tech.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

From Dwayne McDuffie's messageboards:


Reincarnated? I keep reading this all over the net. Did no one actually watch "Shadow of a Doubt" and "Ancient History"? The Absorbacron is a broken database! Hawkgirl told you!

Arrrgggh!

[William C. Maune]

In regards to "reincarnation," while both episodes did point out possibly extensive damage to the Absorbacron, I took the result to mean that what we saw could be the past, but that we don't really know.

[Alex Weitzman]

From Dwayne McDuffie's messageboards:

See, I love Dwayne McDuffie. Totally proving my point. :D

[Freedom Fighter]

Eh... though the first Hawkman episode was dull, and thought the same here. The second turns out better, though, because of some forward progress in the complicated love triangle/quadrilateral of the Justice League.

Seeing Mari and Shayera shooting friendly barbs at each other was fun. It's as if Mari knows she's the favorite in John's court, but at the same time, she knows she's still far from clinching his heart with Shayera still around. Not that Mari wants Shayera gone, per se...

If that was friendly barbing, then what do we call Carter/Hawkman being convinced by the Shadow-Thief that John still being around is the reason he can't get with Shayera? Granted, the barbing is forced, but still... it's easy to tell though Carter wishes Shayera was his, he's nowhere close to actually wanting her or having her.

In this episode, the four members of the quadrilateral are coming to terms and realizing two things: where they are in their relationship with their significant other (or targeted significant other) and where they want to be. After seeing the past of the Egyptian-Thanagarian legacy, and coupled with the trip to the future from an earlier episode, John has realized that destiny is destiny, but destiny should not be achieved at this very second just because it has to eventually. I'm used to seeing Love + Destiny = Instant Romance, so this was very refreshing. I agree with the fact that John says to Shayera that they needed to wait until the time was right.

You also have to think of Vixen's role in all of this. Sure, maybe she sees the future coming too... a future of John that doesn't include her. But she has unrequited feelings for the guy, and isn't it just cause to let their feelings play out until the time for destiny to come a knockin' calls?

Heh... all of this analysis, and I'm not that much of a fan of the few romances there are on this show.

7 out of 10 for "Ancient History."

[Jedah Dohma]

This was better than the other episode featuring Carter/Hawkman. The whole love angle improved with progression.

The past in Egypt was also interesting, too. I enjoy the Egyptian mythos so no surprise that I liked it. :anime:

I also am pleased to hear John's decision at the end. They can wait for a little while longer. I would have done/said the same thing if I were in John's shoes.

Other than that, there's nothing else left for me to add to my five cents. Those gave more thorough analysis of this episode summed it all up for me.

Well, two more episodes left of JLU. I'm looking forward to it.

"Ancient History" receives a 4.6/5 on my grading scale.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Well, look at her! Can you blame him? ;)
Gentleman Ghost
In the comics, he's criminal Carl Sands. He gets his abilities from a suit made with Thanagarian tech.

Thank you for answering my questions.
We don't really know about Warhawk, he could be Mari's son for all we know, since we only see him in two futuristic episodes! :shrug: :p

[James]

Thank you for answering my questions.
We don't really know about Warhawk, he could be Mari's son for all we know, since we only see him in two futuristic episodes! :shrug: :p

We see him in The Call, Epilogue and TAOFT. Technically three. It's pretty certainly GL and Shayera's son. Of course being fiction you can argue any case you like, but the thrust of the show and the backbone of the GL/Shayera situations comes from the premise that this is their son. Otherwise the whole thing falls flat on a misconception and if that was ever the intent, I think such a possibility would have been referenced within the story.

[DisneyBoy]

You never know...he could be Mari and Carter's son ;)

[Duke]

You never know...he could be Mari and Carter's son ;)
Cater doesn't have natural wings.

Warhawk COULD be the product of genetic engineering too...

[Silly McGooses]

It's a shame all these questions will probably go unanswered...

[Trevor Balena]

Cater doesn't have natural wings.

Neither does Warhawk, though, right?

I'm just sayin'.

[JEWCY]

whats the deal with the Absorbacron, was the image that was seen real or not, because I saw on Dwanye McDuffies site that it might not be, but why would they show it anyways?

Could I get some clarification on this please?

[Duke]

whats the deal with the Absorbacron, was the image that was seen real or not, because I saw on Dwanye McDuffies site that it might not be, but why would they show it anyways?

Could I get some clarification on this please?
It's one of those "Whatever you want to believe" answers that allows writers to get out of explaining minute plot details. :p

[JEWCY]

Thanks Duke, appreciate it man

Now here is my review of the episode

Wow. I really loved this episode and it was a great improvement over the dull Far From Home. This is pretty cool because this is the first time that the production team has done a mini arc in the season, finished it up, and have another season long arc going on (Legion of Doom). It was nice to see everything a lot of things in this episode and even parts at the end were pleaseing.

Seeing Gentleman's Ghost in the beginning was sweet, I loved his music that he came when he arrived and going through all those trucks was a nice scene. That has always been one of my favorite things in Justice League are the quick, starting fights that an episode starts out with. In my opinion it never gets old because you can incorporate some villians that might never be able to carry a whole episode by themselves (Parasite in Clash, Extremists in Shadow of the Hawk, Firefly/Volcana/Luminus/Grundy/Copperhead in Only a Dream, KG Beast/Cheetah/Copperhead/Blockbuster in Kids Stuff, Queen Bee/Atomic Skull, Blockbuster in Far From Home-you get my point and there are a lot others that i could talk about)

Has anyone else noticed how Green Lantern has become a little weak in this season. His ring in Far From Home was quoted as the most powerful weapon, and that is why Emerald Empress was so happy to get GL instead of Brainiac 5.

Nice little bit with Shadow Theif spying on Hawkman/GL and the awkwardness was great.

Seeing Vixen and Shayera quarrel over GL was very good, and it is nice to see that Shayera still has great feelings for Jon. The poising the water bit and Shayera tossing it to Vixen midway through the scene was very good. GL calling Hawkman a crazy fanboy was good to. It was good to finally see also GL and Vixen have some alone time as everytime Vixen has appeared in an episode, she is coupled with Shayera somehow, so to see the two together and actually enjoying a moment together was very good in my opinion to see. The first fight with Shadow Theif was good, and I kept liking how S.T. kept telling Vixen that to not be involved, because really it did not involve her.

The fight in the museum was very good, and jeez ST is very strong. Even though the first title had said Shadow of the Hawk and you could of gotten evidence there, and James Remar playing the same voice actor, myself with many people who saw the episode for the first time were very surprised about Shadow Thief being Hawkman's evil half. I was totally expecting Hath-Set to be ST.

Speaking of Hath Set, it was great how Hector Elizando came back (was Kragger, Hro Talek's first commander) and was parallel to Katar Hol which I thought was one of the coolest things the whole series has done.

The flashback was great, and I do not care what anyone says, but what the Absorbacron showed IS WHAT HAPPENED in the past, I do not know what that thing from Dwayne McDuffies messageboard states, but I am convinced that this happened, or else Bruce Timm and co. would of given some impression that it was not real.

The flashback had some beatuful things and another great moment was how Bushari and Shayera's kiss went down, also being parallel to the one that happened in Wild Cards which was awesome. Katar being to concerned with his kingdom and not wanting a child sure made Shayera want to get with some GL.

I also thought when Hath-Set poisened the two, I was like BLOOD FINALLY, and then saw the wine glass, and was like S***, they pulled a good one on us

The scene when it was revealed that ST was HM was a little fast paced, but did not mind and when he learned that HG was not destined to be with him, it was good that he left, because they are Ancient History with one another.

I really like the ending as well from two parts. One I am glad Jon told Shayera about Warhawk, and seeing as the flashback stated that Shayera wanted a son, she was very happy and wanted to get back with Jon. Jon likes Vixen, but does he love her? No. He loves Shayera and he will not be a pawn of destiny, rather he wants the love to come natural and on his conditions. They will be together, but it is just a matter of time. Remember, Warhawk comes 50 years in the future, and probably looks like he is in his mid 30's, so this thing might not even happen for another fifteen years, but to wait for true, natural love is the right thing, and not to go with someone when their current girlfriend is in a coma and rush things because destiny said so.

It is ok that they did not get back together right there, but it did answer questions that they will get back together

Shayera: dont say that you dont love me
GL: Ill never say that

that right there is an example for how much GL loves Shayera, and it was great how they showed her being so interested in her son

Really this was one of the premiere episodes Justice League Unlimited has to show. Its a shame this board shows such negative energy to Hawkgirl/Shayera because she really is a great character in this show and maybe not this episode, but Starcrossed, Wake the Dead, Hunter's Moon shows how sorry she can be for things with great pressure on her, but redeem herself by potentially sacraficing herself for her teammates and the betterness of the world.

This episode gets a near perfect in my book, 4.85/5 stars, it was great, and here is hoping the finale give this and more (if it is possible, but I have a good feeling)

[90'sCartoonMan]

The flashback was great, and I do not care what anyone says, but what the Absorbacron showed IS WHAT HAPPENED in the past, I do not know what that thing from Dwayne McDuffies messageboard states, but I am convinced that this happened, or else Bruce Timm and co. would of given some impression that it was not real.

As strange as this may sound, I think the flashback is real (well, has some truth to it, I think the fact that the Chay Ara/Bushari romance echoes "Wild Cards" so well is because it's playing on the memories of Shayera and John) because of the mention of Teth-Adam. Granted, we only know Captain Marvel exists and there's been no mention of Black Adam, BUT if there is mention Teth Adam in the flashback without Carter, Shayera, or John ever having encountered Black Adam or having prior knowledge of him, then there's something in there that none of them would know about. Some outside truth adds weight to that vision.

[Alex Weitzman]

As strange as this may sound, I think the flashback is real (well, has some truth to it, I think the fact that the Chay Ara/Bushari romance echoes "Wild Cards" so well is because it's playing on the memories of Shayera and John) because of the mention of Teth-Adam. Granted, we only know Captain Marvel exists and there's been no mention of Black Adam, BUT if there is mention Teth Adam in the flashback without Carter, Shayera, or John ever having encountered Black Adam or having prior knowledge of him, then there's something in there that none of them would know about. Some outside truth adds weight to that vision.

The end of Shadow of the Hawk confirms that there were two Thanagarians mummified in that temple: one male, one female, buried together. So obviously, there's some truth to it. The Absorbacron probably helped inform the Egyptian setting based on its previous information (which could include things like Teth-Adam), but all the people and events had more to do with what was held in the heads of Carter, John, and Shayera.

[Sue]

It's one of those "Whatever you want to believe" answers that allows writers to get out of explaining minute plot details. :pEither that or someone switched John, Carter, & Shayera's Maxwell House with LSD ;)

[Archangel2385]

Its a shame this board shows such negative energy to Hawkgirl/Shayera
Umm, just curious, but where do you sense this negative energy towards Shayera from on this board. There was time when Hawkgirl bashing was more apparent (duing Wayman era), but that has significantly died down I thought.

[JEWCY]

Umm, just curious, but where do you sense this negative energy towards Shayera from on this board. There was time when Hawkgirl bashing was more apparent (duing Wayman era), but that has significantly died down I thought.

Yea for that, and I posted a review over at JL Animated and just copied and pasted, but over there it seems that every 1 in 4 members absolutely hates her. There is even a league against shayera hol. I also saw in a few places (cant remember) where people were against Shayera here as well, so I just thought I would keep it.

[Lord Fate]

The end of Shadow of the Hawk confirms that there were two Thanagarians mummified in that temple: one male, one female, buried together. So obviously, there's some truth to it. The Absorbacron probably helped inform the Egyptian setting based on its previous information (which could include things like Teth-Adam), but all the people and events had more to do with what was held in the heads of Carter, John, and Shayera.

Here something else that bothers me. Why was Shayera reborn on Thangard while Carter was reborn on Earth?

[Toddman]

Here something else that bothers me. Why was Shayera reborn on Thangard while Carter was reborn on Earth?

My theory: the Absorbacron is defective. Carter Hall wasn't receiving images from his past life, he was experiencing a flashback of Hro Talek's past life.

It would repeat the history of two Thanagarian lovers being split up by an Earthling.

(the above theory tends to spring a leak though, if Kraggar is the reincarnation of Hath Set)


Toddman

[Funkatron]

My theory: the Absorbacron is defective. Carter Hall wasn't receiving images from his past life, he was experiencing a flashback of Hro Talek's past life.

It would repeat the history of two Thanagarian lovers being split up by an Earthling.

(the above theory tends to spring a leak though, if Kraggar is the reincarnation of Hath Set)


Toddman

I think there is no re-incarnation involved: Hawkman is just looney via the absorbacron.

Though the Hro Talek past life theory thing is pretty sweet.

[Alex Weitzman]

Here something else that bothers me. Why was Shayera reborn on Thangard while Carter was reborn on Earth?

Thus the point: no reincarnation.

[Deadman]

that was a very entertaining episode. *****/*****

[Yojimbo]

Thus the point: no reincarnation.
Yes, you've seen it, I've seen it. Dwayne McDuffie made up a whole thread in his forum to say there is no reincarnation involved. The Absorbicon was broken. Like it was said several posts above. The setting of Egypt was provided but the actual content was a result of the four characters who interfaced with the device. Shadow Thief did this to egg on Hawkman to kill Green Lantern and fulfill his desire for Shayera. But instead, Hawkman realized he and Shayera were never meant to be and rectified the situation.

You can argue the Gentleman Ghost angle. Historically in the comics he is killed by the reincarnations of Katar and Chay-Ara, Nighthawk and (um, forgot the other name) and thus perpetuating this circle of hate Ghost has. But this theory falls apart because in the grand scheme of things in the DCAU, origins are done from scratch or modified. Craddock was still killed by vigilantes, but they were just vigilantes. Craddock became Gentleman Ghost, stuck in the mortal plane because he died a pretty violent death, and contracts himself out as a thief for hire, as seen in the first six or so minutes of the episode.

[BlueRocketBoy]

Thus the point: no reincarnation.
As presented, the characters seem to buy into the theory of reincarnation. Upon waking from their vision, John and Carter look at each other with a look of shared understanding; and Shayera immediately thinks Shadow Thief is the priest who murdered her (or her past self). When Carter apologizes to Shayera, saying they weren't meant to be, it seems that he is basing that feeling on the account of the ancient Thanagarian lovers whose bond was torn apart; and when John tells Shayera he won't be destiny's puppet, it sounds as though he is frustrated at the idea of being manipulated by both the past (as seen through the "absorbicron") and the future (where he's met their son).

It's possible, even likely, that the characters may have collectively insinuated their own faces, voices and persona on the images they were seeing. Hath Set sharing the same voice as Kragger, the removal of the helmet and kiss between the queen and the general playing out as a mirror of the scene between Shayera and John -- these may be elements of the past and present converging, or they may be history repeating itself. There's no way to tell what elements are real or imagined, and so it's up to the viewer to decide how much Shayera, John and Carter share with these Egyptian and Thanagarian figures.

If the writers intended for the whole thing to be a misinterpreted vision as the result of a damaged piece of machinery -- and I'm not saying it isn't -- then they didn't portray it in manner that's definitively clear.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


If the writers intended for the whole thing to be a misinterpreted vision as the result of a damaged piece of machinery -- and I'm not saying it isn't -- then they didn't portray it in manner that's definitively clear.

Yes, but that ambiguity may be deliberate as well, so that people can make up their own minds (or argue ;)) about how it all is supposed to play out in the end.

The closest analog I can think of is the movie version of The Shining, where (trying to avoid spoilers as much as possible) nearly everything that happens can be interpreted as a manifestation of the supernatural or just as a stress and isolation induced hallucination. Neither interpretation ends up being more definitive by the end, and maybe it's a little of both.

-- Ed/Ace

[BlueRocketBoy]

Howdy,
Yes, but that ambiguity may be deliberate as well, so that people can make up their own minds (or argue ;)) about how it all is supposed to play out in the end.
That was my point.

[Jazzie]

I'll take the flashbacks as real otherwise Carter is a loon again. Epilogue was the 'last' JLU episode so we know how it played out with Rex anyway.

[RAINMAN]

Yes, you've seen it, I've seen it. Dwayne McDuffie made up a whole thread in his forum to say there is no reincarnation involved. The Absorbicon was broken. Like it was said several posts above. The setting of Egypt was provided but the actual content was a result of the four characters who interfaced with the device. Shadow Thief did this to egg on Hawkman to kill Green Lantern and fulfill his desire for Shayera. But instead, Hawkman realized he and Shayera were never meant to be and rectified the situation.

You can argue the Gentleman Ghost angle. Historically in the comics he is killed by the reincarnations of Katar and Chay-Ara, Nighthawk and (um, forgot the other name) and thus perpetuating this circle of hate Ghost has. But this theory falls apart because in the grand scheme of things in the DCAU, origins are done from scratch or modified. Craddock was still killed by vigilantes, but they were just vigilantes. Craddock became Gentleman Ghost, stuck in the mortal plane because he died a pretty violent death, and contracts himself out as a thief for hire, as seen in the first six or so minutes of the episode.


So how does john knows that he killed him?

[b.t.]

Yes, you've seen it, I've seen it. Dwayne McDuffie made up a whole thread in his forum to say there is no reincarnation involved. The Absorbicon was broken. Like it was said several posts above. The setting of Egypt was provided but the actual content was a result of the four characters who interfaced with the device. Shadow Thief did this to egg on Hawkman to kill Green Lantern and fulfill his desire for Shayera.


WHA-A-A-AT?????!!!!!

dwayne really said that? guess the right hand really DIDN'T know what the left hand was up to, cuz i thought it was pretty clear there WAS some reincarnation goin' on.....

huh. :shrug:

[Christophe]

WHA-A-A-AT?????!!!!!

dwayne really said that? guess the right hand really DIDN'T know what the left hand was up to, cuz i thought it was pretty clear there WAS some reincarnation goin' on.....

huh. :shrug:and if that's the way the story was supposed to look... well... it just didn't... it seemed flat out reincarnation. I mean hullo, how were we supposed to know the absorbacron was that broken. And that Shadow Thief had that much effect on people. Geez.

And I'll just side with Bruce on this one. ^__^. Otherwise that's too much 'plugging into' the story that it seems near speculative. Things that go on onscreen should be taken at face value.

[Alex Weitzman]

WHA-A-A-AT?????!!!!!

dwayne really said that? guess the right hand really DIDN'T know what the left hand was up to, cuz i thought it was pretty clear there WAS some reincarnation goin' on.....

huh. :shrug:

Continuity conflict! Red alert!

:D

Guess it's pretty much as Merlin Missy said, then: it is what you make of it.

[DLM]

*ahem* Its meant to be ambiguous people, and it is a better story for that element... methinks that what mr bt and mcduffie would both say, correct me if I am wrong.

[Jazzie]

My whole problem with AH is this: if they all weren't reincarnated then what was the point? You didn't need two final season episodes signifying nothing. You could have Carter just find the tech and decide to be Hawkman without all the drama guest star him like Deadman. You want to reveal more of Shayera's past then I can understand. I don't get the wasting of two episodes essentially to NOT resolve something.

[Toddman]

Merlin Missy argued the "Pro-Reincarnation" angle at Mr. McDuffie's website much better than I ever could, but more than anything, I was really surprised by how vehemently he objected to the whole idea of reincarnation.

His main argument seemed to revolve around the fact that the Absorbacon was (according to Hawkgirl) "old, probably damaged." But after witnessing Shayera's reaction to the visions she observed from the device, she seemed to readily accept the idea of reincarnation, stating: "You're Hath-Set. You're the one who poisoned us...". She never retracted that statement.

But whether you believe the reincarnation angle or just think that Carter Hall is truly off his nut (Personally, I say it's a little from column A and a little from column B, and reiterate my theory that Hall was tapping into the memories of Hro Talek's past life, not his own.) there's no doubt the Absorbacron was definitely and totally busted. A telepathic communication device that produced a super-powered shadow-being from one man's subconscious?????:confused:

That's like telling my mechanic that my car is so dinged up it gave me an ear-infection.





Toddman

[Jazzie]

Alright so were they reincarnated or what? Now I'm confused twice removed.

[Christophe]

That's like telling my mechanic that my car is so dinged up it gave me an ear-infection.Supposing a terran would know how an absorbacron works and its adverse reaction afterwards. ^__- You know how cars work... but... well, you get the point. Also 'Hro Talek'? that's waaay too much 'insertion' into the episode. The absorbacron and Hro Talek made no connection whatsoever. The absorbacron's been there since... God knows. While I personally do not believe in reincarnation, I do respect the idea of 'face-value' storytelling. If there were no forums or discussion boards, I'm pretty sure everyone would read it as it flat is.



Yes, but that ambiguity may be deliberate as well, so that people can make up their own minds (or argue ;)) about how it all is supposed to play out in the end.
Then, like I said. That's very unfair to people who had no idea ceratin people had MEANT to make it 'ambiguous'.


If the writers intended for the whole thing to be a misinterpreted vision as the result of a damaged piece of machinery -- and I'm not saying it isn't -- then they didn't portray it in manner that's definitively clear.Precisely. If the writers made the episode so super-clear and they turn around and say that, "hey, actually it's not that at all." Then it borders on bad storytelling.

Let me be clear- Ancient History and Shadow of the Hawk are two of my fave episodes, so i aint bashing. I'm just saying, if they wanted to be all unclear and stuff they shouldn't've made it crystal.

[Karkull]

I took the whole "does-the-Absorbacron-work-or-not" plot device as kind of X-Files-ish. You can be a believer, or you can be a skeptic. I personally found it to be a little convenient that Carter, Shayera, John, and Kragger were part of this reincarnation. I too figured that a lot of this was led on by Shadow Thief, and that the broken Absorbacron blended John and Shayera's memories with the historical data.

[Grimlock]

Just watched this episode...yeah i'm behind.

I *was* going to come on and ask, "so i don't get it, did the flashback really happen and was hawkman right??"

But from reading on here, i like the idea they gave some clues that maybe it didn't happen, so it's up to the viewer to decide.

As for what b.t. said, well...maybe that's his stance as a viewer ;).

Two comments:

1. Thought the animation was pretty good, i enjoyed the fight scenes. Thought they were well-coreographed and animated very well.

2. Since nothing was really resolved per se in the "love triangle", i'm not entirely sure of the point to this episode. We *still* don't know if the reincarnation was real, hawkgirl and GL *still* aren't together, it just seemed like a story that didn't need to be told.

I don't know, maybe i'm just said JLU is ending and i would have rather seen an episode about something else besides this. It's sort of to the point where they've dragged out the hawkgirl/GL thing for so long that i don't seem to care as much about what happens as i used to.

I'm all for character development (getting them togethr for good, or john choosing vixen, etc. etc.), but that's the problem...no one's character was really developed here. At the end, the only thing that's really changed is hawkgirl knows about warhawk. But hey, maybe that's enough to have actually resolved something.

[Silly McGooses]

WHA-A-A-AT?????!!!!!

dwayne really said that? guess the right hand really DIDN'T know what the left hand was up to, cuz i thought it was pretty clear there WAS some reincarnation goin' on.....

huh. :shrug:
Same with me. And if there wasn't, I really don't understand the point of having that really long scene. I mean, it's like the whole freaking episode...

[Yojimbo]

So how does john knows that he killed him?

Can you rephrase the question, I'm not following.


WHA-A-A-AT?????!!!!!

dwayne really said that? guess the right hand really DIDN'T know what the left hand was up to, cuz i thought it was pretty clear there WAS some reincarnation goin' on.....

huh. :shrug:

Dwayne McDuffie later caved and said it is possible, but stands by his original thought. McDuffie's makes more sense to me. But you two can always have Deathmatch Commentary on the fifth DVD set about it.

[Grimlock]

Same with me. And if there wasn't, I really don't understand the point of having that really long scene. I mean, it's like the whole freaking episode...

To leave it open for the viewer to see/decide on another possibility.

[Bones Justice]

Sorry for chiming in kind of late. I've been out for several weeks and am just now catching up on missed episodes -- TGFT (Thank God for TiVo). JLU and 24 are always the first shows that I watch when I get home. I just finished watching Ancient History and wanted to get my thoughts down spoiler-free of the two-part finale.

The first thing that struck me about Ancient History was how boring it was compared to my favorite episodes. In fact, I fell asleep during the Egyptian scenes the first time I watched it and didn't wake until after it was over. True, I was tired so I watched it again from the beginning after I woke up but still was feeling bored and woozy by the end. Didn't we just see this episode earlier this season? The same major players (Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Green Lantern, Shadow Thief), same basic story (Hawkman loves Hawkgirl, Green Lantern loves Hawkgirl but won't admit it, Green Lantern and Hawkgirl will have a son together in the future). The earlier episode went to great lengths to show Hawkman was a stalker while this episode half-heartedly tried to redeem him. By the end of both episodes, nothing has changed. Don't get me wrong, I actually liked the ending but not for the same reason that anyone else apparently did.

As for the whole Absorbicon / reincarnation argument, I thought it was made perfectly clear in both Shadow of the Hawk and Ancient History that the device in question was a "telepathic database". This information came from the only true Thanagarian (Shayera) in both episodes so I took it as fact. Nobody ever said it could divulge past lives. I've read or seen plenty of science fiction that includes technology that allows the user to "live" the memories of another person, too. I think Shayera's explanation in Shadow of the Hawk said it all -- the device is a only a database and Hawkman mistook the information as his own memories.

Which brings me to the idea of reincarnation. I don't believe in it personally but I can accept it in fiction. I just don't like it. What is the point? Are we to believe that those reincarnated are destined to replay the same events? Okay, so how is that interesting? Or perhaps, they are reliving their lives to better themselves or correct mistakes made in past lives. Still doesn't sound all that interesting to me. Anyways, I never got the impression that this story was about reincarnation -- only that the user(s) of the Absorbicon were able to witness what happened in the past "first hand". And why not? It's alien technology.

I was impressed that the story included themes of adultery, murder, and suicide. I wonder how much JLU not being renewed had to do with this? That is, the writers figure they have nothing to lose by taking on some more mature elements. Like others here, I was surprised to see the blood dripping off the bed then felt foolish . Then again, I was fooled by the meaning of the title of Shadow of the Hawk, too. I guess I'm not used to seeing characters having their psyche split off into a shadow being!

I don't care for two kinds of villains -- shapeshifters and intangibles. They usually require some sort of magic trick to stop yet the heroes always have to go through the motions of physical combat for some reason anyways. And this episode had not one but two of these creeps! I did like Green Lantern's tactic of spinning the truck on the Gentleman Ghost but beyond that, the fights were fairly boring. The Gentleman Ghost couldn't be stopped without a magic net so it was "fortunate" that Hawkman was around. And Shadow Thief, I still don't really get how he was defeated unless it was just sheer willpower on Hawkman's part.

Shadow Thief's origins were somewhat interesting. As I mentioned before, I didn't see that one coming. Certainly, though, his creation is more evidence for those that say the Absorbicon was broken. I doubt this was an intended effect of the device. And how will Hawkman change now that he has his "evil" side back? I think we saw it already in how he immediately changed his tune with Shayera and let her go. He still seems confused about his origins, though.



1. So, So True. I'm changing my avatar. GL is the biggest wimp in tights. He gets his butt whooped more than any character on the show. Lois Lane wins more fights. He's supposed to be one of the MOST POWERFUL members of the league. Instead, he's the most hospitalized and confused. (Just one show where the green bubble doesn't burst. Is that too much to ask??)


I don't know if that's a fair assessment. Green Lantern isn't my favorite hero but I think he's alright. And he wins his fair share of fights. I can think of a couple of times where his force bubble held. He was holding down both Volcana and Firefly one time. And another, I can't remember which villain, where the villain says, "You don't expect to hold me with a bubble, do you?" Then Green Lantern wins and says, "It's a really good bubble." (It may have even been the opening fight of Shadow of the Hawk but I can't remember for sure.) Technically, he did hold Gentleman Ghost this time but the latter's magic attack was able to travel back through the stream. Plus, Green Lantern's bubbles have been the saving factor for the rest of the team many times (like in the opening of The Savage Time).

But since when is Green Lantern supposed to be one of the most powerful members of the League? He's powerful, sure, but I have never thought of him as being in the same league (no pun intended) with the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman, or Martian Manhunter. In fact, I always thought of Green Lantern as still being "green" (okay, sorry) with his powers. Other Green Lantern's we've seen in the past have used complicated structures but John Stewart has been limited mainly to beams and bubbles until just recently. Further, he had to start from scratch with his powers after his encounter with Despero. John Stewart the man is mature but John Stewart the Green Lantern still has a way to go.


]
I dont buy that Rex Stewart is John/Hawkgirl's son ONLY in the alternate reality established in "Once and Future Time".

The writers of JLU obviously did not go through ALL THIS TROUBLE of cooking up complications for John/Hawkgirl's love story in regards to their future son, just to later say "oh, well Rex Stewart is just their son in an alternate reality that Batman destroyed"

Besides, John was mentioned as being Warhawk's son in "Far from Home", and that was just the future, not an alternate reality.

It is CONCRETE! Rex is John/Hawkgirl's son. No doubt about it.


I tend to agree with this. There is a lot cooked into this batch for it to be otherwise. Still, the DCAU timeline appears to be somewhat elastic to changes as seen in The Savage Time. After all of the changes made to World War II, we're supposed to believe that the heroes returned to exactly the same present day that they originated from? You would actually think that there would still be some major residual changes to the timeline even after their valiant attempt to repair it. But perhaps, as I suggested, things tended to "snap back" close to the way they were by present day.

As for Rex Stewart, now that Shayera has the idea of her son "Warhawk" in her head, it's entirely possible that whoever the father her child is, she could coax him in that general direction. Maybe the Warhawk seen in The Call is the son of Shayera and someone else. But I doubt it. I also doubt Batman would tell Shayera much about Warhawk anyways. In every instance of time-travel in the DCAU, Batman has been the only one with the good sense to keep information about the future to himself. He's also warned others about it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprise if old Bruce Wayne in Time Warped just said he never remembered going to the future to throw his younger self off the track.
John Stewart, on the other hand, has had a general progression regarding knowing too much about his future. In Time Warped, he was asking questions about his future. He even thought that what he saw meant that he and Shayera were destined to be together and have a son in Shadow of the Hawk. By the time of Far From Home, he was starting to figure out that knowing too much about your own future might not be such a neat idea. And of course, by the time of Ancient History, he came to realize that his destiny was what-ever he makes it.

Shayera's part in this story just shows how I will never understand female logic. In past episodes, when John pays attention to her, she pushes him away. In this episode, though, she seems all set on getting back together despite the fact that nothing has changed between John and Mari. And I give John credit -- when he finally is free of the Absorbicon, he first thoughts are for Mari, not Shayera.



I won't even try to argue your standpoint isn't possible. This is fiction ANYTHING is possible. That said, some things are more probable and the suggestion that the Warhawk in both The Call and TOAFT are different is a little implausible so far as the intent of narrative is concerned. Warhawk is exists in BB. We know he exists. We know he is the son of Hawkgirl and GL. It's what makes AH such an emotionally driven story; we know how it ends, we just don't know how it gets there.


I agree with the part of Warhawk being John's and Shayera's son. That's about all that I agree with, though.

We don't know if they ever end up together. Maybe it's a one-night stand. Or even something else.

More importantly, after this episode, we don't know if Rex Stewart will ever exist. John has figured out that history can be changed. He doesn't say to Shayera, "someday when we get together", he says, "whatever happens". That right there may have changed the future of the DCAU, at least where Warhawk is concerned. I don't think it will change the fact that Terry McGinnis becomes Batman but there's no longer the guarantee that John and Shayera will get together with child.

The timeline in the DCAU is not fixed. We've since history changed in Time Warped, The Savage Time, and Hereafter. The past, present, and future have been temporarily or permanently changed. So there is nothing to say that John and Shayera have to end up together because Warhawk has existed in the future. Note that this doesn't mean that I don't believe JLU and Batman Beyond aren't in the same contuinity. I believe they are the same story -- but John's decision to stay with Mari in Ancient History may have changed some of the events of Batman Beyond. Warhawk may not exist fifty years from now anymore than the benevolent Vandal Savage does thirty-thousand years from now. I don't know how the two-part finale is going to deal with John and Shayera but at this point, Warhawk's very existence is in question.

Maybe the writers will do one of those Animal House endings in the finale with freeze frames of the original seven and text saying what happens to each one. Man, that would suck.

--

Overall, I thought Ancient History was well-written as far as covering all the bases. Not at all like Far From Home in terms of the WTF?-factor. But it was boring. I hope they don't waste too much time in the last two episodes covering John and Shayera's romance. I thought John's decision in the end was believable and maybe even right but I almost wish they had just let them get together already so as not to waste any more screen time on this subject. I guess the only believable way they could have gotten them together, though, was to kill off Vixen or have Vixen dump John first. I like Vixen, though, so I'm glad they didn't kill her off. And I would not have liked the whole cliché with Vixen dumping John because he's "meant" to be with Shayera. So I guess the ending they did was the best I could hope for.

My rating: two out of five stars (worth seeing but not good). I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that JLU has turned in two lousy episodes in a row. Oh sure, they have their place in the overall storyline. But I hope the last two episodes get back to the quality action-adventures we saw earlier in the season.

Gotta grab some shut-eye for now but hopefully, I'll have time to watch more later today.

[Trevor Balena]

More importantly, after this episode, we don't know if Rex Stewart will ever exist. John has figured out that history can be changed. He doesn't say to Shayera, "someday when we get together", he says, "whatever happens". That right there may have changed the future of the DCAU, at least where Warhawk is concerned. I don't think it will change the fact that Terry McGinnis becomes Batman but there's no longer the guarantee that John and Shayera will get together with child. The last thing I want is to reignite this age-old debate... but I don't think you're thinking this through.

Originally, Chronos came from the Batman Beyond future -- the one we saw in the series of the same name. No changes had been made yet, so Terry and Warhawk both existed. Chronos then made changes to the timeline, Terry died, and lotsa bad stuff happened. But John and Batman fixed the timeline, restored the BB future in its entirety. Any knowledge the now have of the future, they were always meant to have. Circlical causality, pre-destination paradox, whatever you want to call it.

Put it another way: we know that Batman Beyond is the true future. Anyone who only saw "The Once and Future Thing" might not know this, but we saw "The Call", and, more importantly, we saw "Epilogue". We know that the future is fixed, as far as our perspective is concerned. Any choices that John makes in the JLU timeframe won't change the BB future -- they result in the BB future. If John hadn't travelled to the future, then Warhawk's existence might be in jeopardy.

To boil it down to its simplest form: Warhawk was in "Epilogue". "Epilogue" aired after "The Once and Future Thing". Ergo, any alterations to the timeline would have been evident in "Epilogue", but there clearly weren't any on the order of magnitude that you're talking about.

Warhawk is inevitable. Live with it.

[Bones Justice]

“Live with it”? Wha…? Ha, ha, you’re kidding, right? What’s next, “talk to the hand”? :p

And while some elements of this may have been discussed before, Ancient History is only about a month old so it’s hardly “age-old”. Of course, I welcome the debate but I don’t want to put you out or anything.



Originally, Chronos came from the Batman Beyond future -- the one we saw in the series of the same name. No changes had been made yet, so Terry and Warhawk both existed. Chronos then made changes to the timeline, Terry died, and lotsa bad stuff happened. But John and Batman fixed the timeline, restored the BB future in its entirety. Any knowledge the now have of the future, they were always meant to have. Circlical causality, pre-destination paradox, whatever you want to call it.


Irrelevant to what I was talking about. Oh, sure, your logic is sound, causality and all that. But you might as well be arguing that a man cannot fly. You’d be right yet wrong at the same time because in the show, a man can fly. We are talking about a television show’s logic. In a television show, the logic can be anything the writers want it to be as long as it’s consistent with itself. (Even then, those laws can be broken but that sort of inconsistency tends to turn me away from the show).

We have seen it several times in Justice League – an individual, using knowledge of the future (in relation to the time the individual is currently in), takes actions which will knowingly change the previously seen future if said action is successful.

For example:

Hereafter
A. We see Superman in present day. B. We see Superman in a far distant future in which Vandal Savage has destroyed the world. C. We see Superman, back in present day, take action which will change what we saw in (B). D. The future seen in (B) is erased, specifically the (B) version Vandal Savage is erased.


Note that A->B->C->D are not chronological for the characters in the story. Instead, they refer to the order in which we the television audience see the events. For the characters, C happens before B.

Now look at the events as layed out around Ancient History:

A. We see the present day prior to Epilogue. B. We see a far distant future in Epilogue which includes Warhawk. C. We see Green Lantern, back in the present day in Ancient History, take action which will change what we saw in (B). D. At the end of Ancient History, we are not shown the future. If Green Lantern stands by his decision, though, we have to assume by the show’s own logic that the future will be different at least in that respect. By default, it would also result in (B) version of Warhawk being erased.

(Note: I am leaving the events of the two-part finale out of this discussion since I haven’t seen all of it yet.)

So causality doesn’t have the same effect that you might expect. If we see a future, then later events are shown which occur chronologically prior to the first seen future, it’s possible for characters with knowledge of that future to take action which will change the previously seen future. It all depends upon whether the characters take action and whether or not they are successful.

It’s not just my speculation – we’ve seen it before. If it was all destiny, Batman and Green Lantern probably wouldn't object to knowing too much about the future. Green Lantern would not have said “whatever happens” in Ancient History, he would have said “whenever”.

Maybe you’re right, though. Maybe I haven’t thought things through enough. But I doubt it. :D

[Trevor Balena]

A. We see the present day prior to Epilogue. B. We see a far distant future in Epilogue which includes Warhawk. C. We see Green Lantern, back in the present day in Ancient History, take action which will change what we saw in (B). D. At the end of Ancient History, we are not shown the future. If Green Lantern stands by his decision, though, we have to assume by the show’s own logic that the future will be different at least in that respect. By default, it would also result in (B) version of Warhawk being erased. There's a problem with your logic, though. Assuming you're right, and the future was changed as a result of John gaining the knowledge he did, any changes to the timeline would have taken place the moment he returned to the present. To use your own example against you (I'm sneaky that way), as soon as Superman returned to the present in "Hereafter", Savage's future changed; the timeline didn't "wait" for the League to stop Savage from getting the white dwarf thingie, but rather corrected itself as soon as the events that would lead to that correction were set in motion -- i.e. as soon as Superman went back to stop Savage.

So, given that "Epilogue" aired after "The Once and Future Thing", and John gained his knowledge in the latter, any changes to the timeline should have been evident in the former, since the events leading to those changes would already have been set in motion. But no changes were evident; Warhawk was there.

Frankly, I think we've been given overwhelming evidence that Warhawk is inevitable. We've seen him several times, the creators have said that he will exist, etc. No offence, but it sounds like you're clinging to a point of view that have very little -- if any -- evidence to support it, and I'm not sure why you'd want to do that.

[JEWCY]

Damn TBalena you know your stuff. Very impressed with that logic you presented

[Bones Justice]

There's a problem with your logic, though. Assuming you're right, and the future was changed as a result of John gaining the knowledge he did, any changes to the timeline would have taken place the moment he returned to the present. To use your own example against you (I'm sneaky that way), as soon as Superman returned to the present in "Hereafter", Savage's future changed; the timeline didn't "wait" for the League to stop Savage from getting the white dwarf thingie, but rather corrected itself as soon as the events that would lead to that correction were set in motion -- i.e. as soon as Superman went back to stop Savage.


What you are saying makes sense. But that's not the way it happened, though. Vandal Savage didn't disappear first -- Superman returned home, gathered his forces to stop the theft of the dwarf star, then Vandal Savage disappeared. Vandal even had time to travel from his compound to the center of the destroyed city before disappearing. By your reasoning, he should have disappeared the instant Superman returned. Clearly, he didn't.

The only difference in Green Lantern's case is that he took longer to change his mind than Superman took to decide to stop Vandal Savage. Again, I agree that it doesn't make as much sense as your way does. But the other way is born out by example above. I agree that the timeline shouldn't have "waited" but they clearly showed that it did.



No offence, but it sounds like you're clinging to a point of view that have very little -- if any -- evidence to support it, and I'm not sure why you'd want to do that.

I'm not clinging to anything. I personally don't mind if Warhawk exists. I actually thought he was cool in The Call. Knowing what I know now (having seen the last episode), I haven't seen anything that changes my opinion -- we don't know what will happen because they never showed the results of John's decision.

Edit:

I was discussing this topic with a friend today. I hadn't thought about it, but he pointed out that Green Lantern travelled to the future after Epilogue in the episode Far From Home. More importantly, my friend hit on something that made a lot of sense -- prior to Far From Home, John's attitude was that his and Shayera's relationship was a done deal in the future. But during Far From Home and afterwards, the idea of it or perhaps the destiny of it seemed to really bother him. Perhaps, he did not make his decision to potentially change the future he had seen in Time Warped until after his time trip in Far From Home, based upon the knowledge he learned there (both that he would be a father and about destiny in general (the whole Supergirl thing)).

I suppose it fits the theory that TBalena has about the whole thing, though it's not how I saw it working out. The idea that the future changes in the first place is an odd concept but when it changes is even more difficult. Does time change when you take action to change the future? Or does it change when you think of taking action to change the future? (Anybody that has seen Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure probably knows exactly what I mean.) Or is it like TBalena suggests, it changes the moment you return from the future?

I think this show has made it clear how things work in their universe -- one timeline that is changed at the "moment" (from the audience's perspective) that an individual makes a change, no matter "when" that is. It's not perfect but then it's their playground and we are just lucky to be there. I have always preferred the "multiple worlds" theory (a change in history causes the timeline to split in two directions) simply because it avoids these kinds of problems. But we've never seen that happen in any of the DCAU stories so it cannot be used here.

At any rate, I thought the writers made it very clear at the end of Ancient History that John's and Shayera's future together was unclear. That is something that I can "live with".

[Aldrius]

A good episode artistically. I thought the fight between the Shadow Hunter and Mari and John was really cool. As was the part with the Gentleman Ghost. However, I was rather disappointed with the complexity of the episode's backstory.

Honestly I didn't like the idea behind The Past and Future Thing. In my opinion, Time Travel should always be 'you won't do it because you didn't.' in my opinion. (Like in Gargoyles.) So any references to that episode bother me... @____@

After reading about some Hawkman backstory (in the comics), I'm really interested in him and Shayera. (Well, I was always interested in Shayera, but moreso now.) My mind is realing, I wish DC would just establish continuity instead of changing everything on a whim...

The Shadow Hunter being part of Carter was sortof weird... I'd rather have seen him as just an archeologist rival to Hall...=\.

*Sigh* These characters have so much potential, and yet they're so bogged down by continuity. The Re-Incarnation stuff was all right. I sortof like the idea that they fabricated it in their minds. Putting themselves into the roles of the various people involved. (As opposed to being actually re-incarnated.)

I just think that's more... realistic. Well, as realistic as this can get. Haha.

[DisneyBoy]

I just noticed the mention of "Teth Adam" last night...isn't that "Black Adam", as in the Shazam/Captain Marvel villain?

Oh and Aldrius...I definitely think you've hit on why this episode, despite the callbacks and animation, is more of a miss. The DCAU was never supposed to be about insanely complex backstories...and here...it is.

[satam55]

This was a solid episode, but It loses major points because Shayera and GL didn't get back together at the end which prevented us from seeing them get back together on screen.