TMNT Talkback: Episode 4.25 (26): "The Ninja Tribunal" (Spoilers)

[Ian]

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/4kids2.jpghttp://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/tmnt.jpg
Episode 4.25 (26): The Ninja Tribunal
Original Air Date: April 15, 2006
Written by Michael Ryan

Previously on TMNT: The Foot Mystics, bound by The Shredder's Heart of Tengu, are accidentally set free by Agent Bishop and Baxter Stockman. Meanwhile, The Ancient One, sensei and adoptive father of Hamato Yoshi, stands before a trio of shadowy figures, pleading for the turtles' lives.

This week, on TMNT: Los Hermanos Hamato stand before the three-person Ninja Tribunal, on trial for their lives! Who exactly are these three judges, and what, if any, is their connection to the Shredder and the Elementals? What do they want with the turtles? Who are those four other ninja? Will Phoenix Wright and Miles Edgeworth finally consumate their relationship? I hope so!

[NightwingAngelo]

The Season Finale - Ninja Turtle style! :D Or, at least I don't expect it to be any other way for the end of our Season 4.

Uh, so... I guess this is the last new episode that they'll be airing, eh? I hope it makes the most of this moment. Who knows if we'll ever have the Ninja Turtles be like this ever again.

[BCVM22]

Uh, so... I guess this is the last new episode that they'll be airing, eh? I hope it makes the most of this moment. Who knows if we'll ever have the Ninja Turtles be like this ever again.

Where did you get that idea? A new season will start in the fall. It just won't necessarily be the next season.

[Anarky]

Where did you get that idea? A new season will start in the fall. It just won't necessarily be the next season.

i'm certain nightwingangelo was referring to this being the last new ep of this season. sigh, 5 mos til new eps (minus the Lost Season dvds)

[Simpler Simon]

i'd be very surprised if this episode wasn't somehow self-contained. The only way they could skip an entire "lost" season is if there are no major dangling plotlines when the season ends.

[NightwingAngelo]

i'm certain nightwingangelo was referring to this being the last new ep of this season. sigh, 5 mos til new eps (minus the Lost Season dvds)

Exactly. I was referring to this Season, and the fact that Fast Forward has been confirmed for next Season. I'm just not sure whether it will be a long story arc or the way the series will be taken for good, that's where the uncertainty comes from.

I'm well aware that this show has already been completed through Season 6... or even 7. :cool:

[sdp]

ha, i see a lot of people getting very pissed after this, can't say i would be though i don't know kind of a weak cliff hanger finale IMO, it'll be interesting how theyw i"ll pull of the FF if they're in the middle of the sea or how the "lost" season goes.


btw this might be very old but i've been reading the archie comics and noticed that the mutated guy from Bishop's outbreak might have been a small nod to the series.

[Simpler Simon]

i'd be very surprised if this episode wasn't somehow self-contained. The only way they could skip an entire "lost" season is if there are no major dangling plotlines when the season ends.

So ah...that was open ended. They must be really sure the dvds will be released over summer if we're gonna fast forward after this.

I don't even know how to rate this episode. Some interesting ideas, but mostly just exposition.

[creativerealms]

Noooo, this was no self contained episode but a start of the new story line. The Tribunial training the Turtles and their new allies so they can get ready for the battle with the real Shredder.

This makes me so mad at 4kids right now. The team had the story planned, season five, the True Shredder season was going to lead into season six "Fast Forward." By doing this 4kids has thrown off the natural progression of the story line. Everything was leading into everything else.

Now I have faith that the lost season even cut in half will rap up the True Shredder arc nicely though it will be a bit faster pased then they originally planned. I just hope the show lost season is released before Fast Forward begins.

Also the Turtles were way to quick in trusting a group of people dressed as their worst enemy.

[Anarky]

i'd be very surprised if this episode wasn't somehow self-contained. The only way they could skip an entire "lost" season is if there are no major dangling plotlines when the season ends.

ahem...you were saying

so it seems the real 5th season has the TMNT & their new allies facing the ancient Shredder & the Elemental Mystics in Japan

note: the reverse Foot logo. I hope they cover this tidbit in the Lost Season

Loved the Manhunters in this ep, great designs as well

Curious to see why the Ninja Tribunal are garbed as the Shredder...or perhaps its vice versa. Perhaps the original Shredder was once a member of the Tribunal but defected...and as a show of contempt, he used the same insignia but flipped it upside-down out of spite. So much backstory...are we certain there's only 13 eps in the can for the true 5th season???

as for Fast Forward, I'm certain it'll only last one season 26 eps. There's too much to deal w/ in the present timeline. Perhaps in their absence, Hun & the Purple Dragons have become a juggernaut in the NY underworld. And I'm certain there's more Y'lintian drama ahead.

[SirLemming]

What the heck? How could this episode NOT be followed up by a direct continuation? Did the network execs even watch it before making this decision?

[creativerealms]

Knotice there were five tribunal suits but only four were taken? The fifth probably belonged to the True Shredder.

[Slane]

Just like everyone else is going to say in this thread: 4Kids, you are out of your freaking minds for changing the season line-up. Idiots.

...

Was Mikey's dueling nunchucks supposed to be a reference to the first movie, only with Mikey getting outshone this time? :p

And how on earth do the turtles fit all of that stuff into the new lair? Splinter has a very cool room now.

[Simpler Simon]

Knotice there were five tribunal suits but only four were taken? The fifth probably belonged to the True Shredder.

Yeah I noticed that too, but didn't put it together until you pointed it out.

The lost season is 13 eps...we dunno if thats the first 13 eps of production order, if they compressed the main storylines into 13 eps, or if only 13 eps were ordered for season 5 (i remember an early toyfair report saying TMNT had reached 117 eps)

Something else I'd like to mention is how absolutely kickin Splinter's new room is. The new lair finally has a warm, settled-in feeling.

Also not sure why Donny still had the bandage in the beginning (made me think epy was out of order), did he have it on later?

[Anarky]

Knotice there were five tribunal suits but only four were taken? The fifth probably belonged to the True Shredder.

i suspected the same Coop, check out my post just above yours
great minds think alike, eh?
off topic: REALLY hoping for Megas XLR dvds this yr

[Anarky]

Just like everyone else is going to say in this thread: 4Kids, you are out of your freaking minds for changing the season line-up. Idiots.

...

Was Mikey's dueling nunchucks supposed to be a reference to the first movie, only with Mikey getting outshone this time? :p

And how on earth do the turtles fit all of that stuff into the new lair? Splinter has a very cool room now.

yeah, loved the dueling nunchuck bit
it's good to see Mikey get out-hot dogged for once: SERVED!!!:D

[Anwar]

I got something of a "Mortal Kombat The Movie" feeling from this episode, fight/meeting on a big boat, taking them somewhere for "training", the blonde woman kinda reminded me (visually) of Sonja...

[SirLemming]

I got something of a "Mortal Kombat The Movie" feeling from this episode, fight/meeting on a big boat, taking them somewhere for "training", the blonde woman kinda reminded me (visually) of Sonja... I thought the same thing. Blonde hair and green spandex with white & black stripes..

[Andrew T. Hingson]

Well besides a decent fight this was rather dissapointing. And as for cutting out stuff this is quite a throwback to major episode removals in One Piece in which they continue as if the story has no kinks despite making so many along the way by cutting out and retooling episodes while leaving others as they were which causes strange conflict with the story line.

And so my hatred is complete. 4kids screwed up TMNT. It took them a while granted but eventually it got treated like crap just like all the rest of their shows.

Thanks heavens for Laird. I hope they get that Lost Season on DVD ASAP.

[Dark Fact]

I actually happened to like this episode. Sure, it was open ended but the fights were well done and the Ninja Tribunal give a great sense of intrigue and really set you up for the next season.

I really liked the Mokujins in this episode. Not only did they have a cool ominous theme, but they were tough and also fought fair. The turtles really got served big time by them.

As for the new human allies, I don't know what to think of them. I'm going to have to give them a season to see how they fare. :shrug:

Did anyone also get a BIG "Secret Wars" vibe from this whole episode? Only replace the Beyonder with the Ninja Tribunal council members and there you go.

Everything looks so well set up for the battle against the real Shredder next season.

Yet, in 4Kids and all their greed, they want to bypass ALL this just to go for Fast Forward only to sell more toys. I'm with everyone else here now when you all say you are pissed this is happening. They should be saving Fast Forward for the season after the real Shredder, not bring it in now.

TMNT is one of the most successful shows 4Kids even has on its block and they want fudge it up for the ploy of selling more toys? I'd like to see the Fast Forward season captivate my interest.

FINAL THOUGHTS ON SEASON 4:

What can I say? It's a mixed bag for me. The season started off pretty weak with the one shot episodes dealing with the Ellintean backstories. The season got slightly better with Hun returning to the picture and Leo's angst taking control of him only to have him doing something regrettable and seeing the Ancient One to heal his wounds.

The mutant outbreak was handled particularly well but felt rushed and forced at some points. The biggest disappointment is the omission of "Insane in the Membrane" which details Stockman's attempt at recreating his body because 4Kids bungled up the order of the schedule and/or decided that the episode is too much for kids.

Lady Shredder/Karai sucked...bad! Her only achievement in her entire run this season was getting the turtles old lair successfully destroyed. Other than that, she was a big whiner and not even nearly as ruthless as the old Utrom Shredder was. Even her own minions seem incompetent with her around now. I don't blame the foot mystics one bit for being disgusted with putting up with her.

The season continued to dip in quality with the Savanti Romero 2 parter with the turtles going back to the prehistoric period to deal with the magic user. The interest wasn't as great and felt more like a big pitch for the "Paleo Patrol" toys than anything.

Fortunately, after the 2 parter, the show picked up in quality in a big way with Donny's mutation finally coming full circle. Donny's monsterous form and violent nature causing the turtles to strike a truce with Bishop in order to heal him was one of the most powerful arcs the series had to offer and was executed beautifully (who didn't like it when Bishop got used by the foot mystics?).

The one shot episode with Master Yoshi's past, while wasn't regarded as the true episode 100 by 4Kids broadcast standards, stood out as an excellent episode with themes that pushed the limits of Saturday morning toons such as death, betrayal, and revenge. Plus, we got to see Splinter's origin. :)

The finale's open-endedness serves more as a beginning of a new arc that will lead the turtles to take on the new Shredder.

I'm hoping that next season will cater well and not mark the shark-jump that many people fear to the whole series. It would be terrible if the show got pulled due to bad ratings from Fast Forward and leaving us hanging with the turtles going to fight the real Shredder.

Oh well, here's hoping that "Insane in the Membrane" will get the airing it deserves before the new season begins.

[Aztec]

Screw you 4Kids! Screw you for messing up what will likely be one of best storylines of this show. You stupid A**holes! Is selling new "futuristic" toys so important that you had to destroy the momentum of a well written show?

Hey toy merchants, there were 9 new characters introduced in today's episode. The 4 Ninja Tribunal guys, the 4 other ninjas, and those mysterious wood ninjas. You can get your toy profits from these new characters while keeping the fans happy. Is that so difficult? :confused:

Now we have to wait for a DVD to see the rest of this storyline. As we know from previous experience, the DVDs are a disaster so don't expect much. They'll probaly release the 13 episode lost season 1 episode a time over 13 different DVDs.

This is a shame and could very well mark the end of this otherwise magnificient TMNT series. All to sell more toys and "reboot" the series (Spiderman Unlimited anyone?). A series that was progressing so well that a reboot wasn't remotely needed.

As for the episode itself, it was great. I love this storyline and I wish I could see it to its conclusion. I want to know who the real Shredder is and exactly what he is capable of. Just how "evil" is this dude anyway? Sadly, we may never know. :shrug:

[Hyper Shadow X]

I'm disappinted with this one.

[Slane]

Hey toy merchants, there were 9 new characters introduced in today's episode. The 4 Ninja Tribunal guys (ironically tribunal means 3), the 4 other ninjas, and those mysterious wood ninjas. You can get your toy profits from these new characters while keeping the fans happy. Is that so difficult? :confused:

Two notes:

First, I also wondered why the push for the new "Fast Forward" toys when the number of them seems equal to the ones for this arc (especially when I am sure there will be some toy set for the turtles' "Ninja Tribunal" arc).

Don't forget that the Ninja Tribunal should also include a fifth member (note the absent throne in this episode), which may or may not belong to the real Shredder. If so, then there is at least one more figure, that of the fifth member, and possibly another figure, that of the real (or the upcoming new) Shredder.

Plus, this arc has to include characters related to the Ancient One (another figure) and everything we saw with him. I really wish they would make toys for nearly ALL of the characters, including the twin giants and the ghosts that fought Leo in "The Ancient One." Heck, look at how many figures we got for "Battle Nexus." There were numerous competitors, yet the most we have are the turtles, the Daimyo, the Ultimate Ninja, Drako, Butterfly Swords, Traximus, Usagi, Gen, and the Dark Assassin. There are still numerous other figures to make from THAT line before moving onto the other ones.

Second, the etymology of "tribunal" relates to the word "tribe." (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tribunal&db=*) Yeah, I thought it meant "three" as well, especially because we only saw the eyes of three members at the end of Yoshi's origin episode. So much for capitalizing on the coolness of "tri-."

[Aztec]

Two notes:

Second, the etymology of "tribunal" relates to the word "tribe." (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tribunal&db=*) Yeah, I thought it meant "three" as well, especially because we only saw the eyes of three members at the end of Yoshi's origin episode. So much for capitalizing on the coolness of "tri-."

I stand corrected then. (tips his hat)

[Mandi-chan]

I thought this ep was very good, not to par with last year's "Exodus" but still good. It had a cliff-hanger like season 1, leaving us demanding more (well...we're always demanding more, but you know what I mean).

I, like many here, am very pissed at 4Kids for mucking things up with the show. Nice way to treat your loyal veiwers to the only good show you have:

First you mess up the dvds by having the eps out of order and mixed up.
Then you, for some bizzare unknown reason, show season 4 out-of-order.
You skip an episode of season 4.
Then, because you want to sell more toys, tell the TMNT show's crew that you want to skip season 5 in favor of what was planned for season 6.ARG!

Even though I'm annoyed that we're being screwed over with the real season 5, I'm not going to hold it against the season we will be getting (Flash Forward).

We were going to get this season anyway, but as season 6 instead of season 5, it was something the team had planned.

I have faith in the writers, they've given us 4 (and a half) unbelievably amazing seasons of this kick-ass show. I don't think, despite the problems 4Kids has given them, that they're going to start crapping out now.

I look forward to "Flash Forward"...I just wish we had it when we were supposed to.

I think that 4Kids, by making this poor move, may have screwed the show over. Because they skipped a season, people will be severly confused about what's going on (unless they have the "lost season" dvd).

Non-fans will probably see this upcoming season as it's jump-the-shark moment, even though in reality it is not.

A lot of fans are already hateful towards this new season, and don't want to give it a chance, because it's not the original season 5.

It was season 6, it was planned, it won't be bad!

[CyberCubed]

Well this episode itself was good, but as others have said it was a lead-in to a larger story arc, so it can't really be judged on its own merit yet.

I want the *real* Season 5 a.k.a. TMNT in Japan and the "True" Shredder storyline, not Cody Jones brings the TMNT 99 years into the future storyline. :/

Heh, I knew Bishop/Baxter would be done for awhile. When will we see them again? I also have to wonder where the Foot Mystics went, unless those Shredders were the Foot Mystics.

Also, those mysterious figures the Ancient One was talking to was indeed these Shredder tribunal people, so that loose end was "kinda" tied up.

I take it a lot of people will be confused come this September.

[Anarky]

yeah, most of know that Fast Forward was originally planned as the 6th season
What irks us is that the true 5th season was cut in HALF, from 26 to 13 and dubbed "Lost". So far I'm not sure exactly how far along in production of the true 5th season was before it was pushed to the back burner for FF.

Were they still in the process of animating S5 before they "stopped the presses"? Did they know of the bump ahead of producing S5, therefore forcing the creators to carefully select which stories got animated?

My biggest concern is that the overseas & writing team had the entire 26 ep run plotted out but only got to finish production on half leaving loose ends that would've been resolved in the remaining half of the season.

has anyone working on the show or Laird commented on the structure of the Lost Season?

[Anyone00]

An executive in the entertainment industry seems to be one of the very few professions that actively rewards incompetence.

or

When the accounting department runs a business that business is headed forcollapse.


One or both of the above applies here; is it that hard to wait one more season.

Oh well, I wonder if Shadow will be in the future season?

EDIT: Oh, 99 years, never mind.

[Ian]

You know, I don’t see why 4Kids is getting all of the blame here, since I’ve yet to see any solid (or heck, even circumstantial) proof that they pushed for the change. Everything suggests that it was Playmates who pushed for it, since a) they’ve historically had more influence over the contents of the series, and b) we heard the news from the action figure circuit before we heard about it from 4Kids. Finally, I don’t see how Laird, Goldfine and Co. are somehow blameless in all of this, if blame is to be assigned at all. If 4Kids or Playmates pushed for the change, they had to have approved of it for it to get the green light. They are in no way victims here.


In any case, on to the episode. I liked it. Although I’m not too enthusiastic about this real Shredder storyline—in part because I’m a contrarian, in part because it seems a bit too epic for the normally-grounded turtles—I must say that this was a very good start. Lots of introductions, and lots of new characters and concepts. Since it’s a bit hard to judge the episode on its own, being obviously a prologue to a larger story, I’ll instead focus on that.

Joy, Adam, Farachi (sp?), and Tora: Dread from the Superhero Hype boards said that they could have stepped out of any Samurai Showdown game, and he's right. Still, I like the designs, as well as their weapons. We didn’t learn much, but what we did learn seemed interesting. They’re all humans from modern-day Earth; Joy has family in Japan, but doesn’t appear to be Japanese herself, while Adam is American. They don’t seem to know each other. They’re martial artists, presumably on par with Hun, Karai, et al, yet don't seem to have super-interesting lives that they or the turtles do.

The Mokusai no Bushi: Okay, these dude are cool, and one of the creepier things I’ve seen in American animation. Just a whole bunch of cool.

The Ninja Tribunal: Eeeeh. Hard to say. They certainly look cool, and they so far fit the mold of über-powerful asses pretty well, but not much beyond that. I’m definitively curious about the empty fifth chair, though, and their connection to Oroku Saki.

New Music: Yay, new music! I love the wind chimes for the Mokusai no Bushi. Plus, a new battle theme!

Okay. Recap of stuff we know that might be relevant.

·Centuries ago, the Daimyo and his ilk introduced to the humans what would eventually become ninjitsu.

·Inside the Pavilion of Past Champions stands a statue of somebody wearing armor reminiscent of the Shredder’s.

·One thousand years ago, the Utrom C’hrell created the Foot, using iconography also present within the Ninja Tribunal.

·Using the Heart of Tengu he created, C’hrell bound the five elements, enslaving them. Those five elements later freed themselves, using Agent Bishop as their cat’s-paw to destroy the Heart.

·The Five Elements, who bear the symbol of the Foot even after freeing themselves, aim to resurrect “the true Shredder”.

·The Ninja Tribunal have promised to teach their eight acolytes the “true power” of ninjitsu.

·The Ancient One, who apparently has more than an idea of what the future will bring, has once plead to the Ninja Tribunal for the turtles’ lives.

·There are five thrones in the Ninja Tribunal’s audience hall. Only four are filled.

·Karai, despite presumably being the one martial artist on Earth with the most info on the Elements and the Ninja Tribunal, was not invited to be an acolyte.

·While the Judges in the Ninja Tribunal wear the helmet of the Shredder, they do not refer to themselves as “Shredders”.

Now, some speculation. I’m going on a limb and saying that Ch’rell is the fifth judge, or at least part of a previous group of Acolytes. He was, after all, the one who managed to bind them.

What is the Ninja Tribunal, and what is their purpose? I’m quite happy to say I have no idea. Like I said before, they seem to be in the ilk of the Guardians from the Green Lantern comics: ultra-powerful asses who are perfectly content to let their acolytes do their work for them. No doubt they would defeat the elements if they so wished—heck, Splinter did. What I really want to know is their relationship, if any, with the Battle Nexus, including the ninjitsu stuff and the Shredder armor.

[Sharklady]

> ...Joy has family in Japan, but doesn’t appear to be Japanese herself... <

Perhaps she's of mixed ancestory. Or, she simply had her hair litened.

It may mean something that, though Tora is the most obviously Asian, it was Joy who first recognized the coast of Japan.

[Dank]

I wonder if the Ninja Tribunal has anything to do with the Shredder clones?

[Inner City Blue]

Oh man, it's too bad the Zombie Stockman didn't get shown in the last few episode. ;)

[NightwingAngelo]

What?! Nooo!!! They can't go down like that! :(

The episode was decent. Nothing spectacular, but it was clearly a setup episode for something much deeper in Season 5 (a show down with the real Shredder and the now free Foot Mystics likely) and was pulled off well and had much more to it than meets the eye. A lot of interesting things that we'll likely never have concluded any time soon (unless they do release it on 1 dvd set instead of 2 at a time mixed into others in their usual idotic style):

They've now introduced those new fighting guys "Mokusai no Bushi"(?), they now have 4 new allies, there were 4 Shredder-like characters in the Ninja Tribunal but 5 seats showing that one of them was gone, Splinter and maybe the Ancient one is going to meet the Tribunal, the Turtles and their allies will be taught advanced techniques in Ninjitsu, and they're now in Japan. I'm looking forward to what the trying tests they take will be, and what lies ahead in the future.

Also, the lair has been improved big time, and though I originally didn't take a liking to it at first, I have to admit that it truely is looking great now, especially Master Splinter's room. Nice improvements. :)

And it really does looke like the end of the Bishop/Hun and the Purple Dragons storylines for now, but I'm not really sure about Karai and the Foot. I think she may have a minor part here somewhere.

A shame that it we won't be seeing Season 5 sooner to complement this actually pretty good episode.

I'm now very angry with 4kids, Playmates (traitors!) and of course Cartoon Network for how this show is going to skip what would be a great story.

Maybe if playmates concentrated on making the toys everyone is screaming for but they ignore, let along making them look accurately like the ones on the TV show, this wouldn't be happening... ? I don't know. :shrug:

And I was actually starting to ease off of 4Kids and the way they showcased the Ninja Turtles. The previews were improved greatly, and they have those interesting commercials in between shows. But now... what am I supposed to do? Brush this off? they're cutting off this curcial storyline in the series, and now when this Fast Forward sutff shows up they'll be referring to a whole bunch of stuff that we never saw (if it is even in continuity) and making me even more angry. When you have a series that based so heavily on continuity as the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, you don't skip a whole season, especially if the show has 103 episode of history behind it (really 104, but hey, they skipped one :shrug: ). Even if Fast Forward is good (I'm not so sure about that now now, but I'll wait a bit before I comepletely tear it apart) the continuity will be messed up, and yes, that does matter... A LOT!!! I don't care much for this Cody Jones, or this 99 years into the future thing, but I guess I'll have to see. I'm trying not to go over the top here so that nothing will come to haunt me if the series does pan out well (which I'm starting to doubt) but I'll say that I'm hoping a prayer will be answered and Teletoon will air the full lost Season (they'll likely air the missing episode "Insane in the Membrane").

Othewise, I don't want a messed up DVD set, and I want the whole season as one whole freakin' Season! Not that garbage 4-5 ep. thingies that they've been throwing out, or else I'll continually not buy them. :mad:

The only thing I can see any hope in is that it's Laird that's behind TMNTFF, so it if it's anything like it usually is, it should be decent. He has earned his trust, so I'll hold off here and not going to guarantee any failure, 'cause he's done great work with the series to date.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

I'm sure Playmates is at least partially at fault for the jump to Fast Forward but the toys are actually selling fine even great so I'm more inclined to believe 4kids wanted to retool TMNT to be more kid friendly so the ratings would improve as well as the toy sales. It's not just toy sales in this case. TMNT isn't getting very good ratings at all at the moment. And as mentioned before this arc would have plenty of cool ninja toys to add to the market so "lack of characters" isn't the problem at all.

[CyberCubed]

TMNT isn't getting that great ratings because it airs on 4kidsTV. If TMNT had started on KidsWb instead, the show would probably be tied with Pokemon/Yu-gi-oh for Saturday mornings.

[NightwingAngelo]

I'm sure Playmates is at least partially at fault for the jump to Fast Forward but the toys are actually selling fine even great so I'm more inclined to believe 4kids wanted to retool TMNT to be more kid friendly so the ratings would improve as well as the toy sales. It's not just toy sales in this case. TMNT isn't getting very good ratings at all at the moment. And as mentioned before this arc would have plenty of cool ninja toys to add to the market so "lack of characters" isn't the problem at all.

I know the English was horrible in my previous post, so I'm going to try and make things a little cleaner here. ;) Errors galore!

Yeah, I know the toy sales are fine, I'm just beginning to wonder if they're starting to get a little greedy now... you know, with them selling it for 4 years successfully and the show possibly being on TV for the next 2-3.

I don't understand why their toys look so... inaccurate though. Like the Battleshell and shell-cycle. Like, what the shell? I don't get it.


TMNT isn't getting that great ratings because it airs on 4kidsTV. If TMNT had started on KidsWb instead, the show would probably be tied with Pokemon/Yu-gi-oh for Saturday mornings.

True. Though the only way that would happen is if we got that weird-looking one that was previewed and then scrapped and replaced with the one we have now. I don't know if there was any other way, especially with the CN option not working out too well... then again, I have no idea how it was represented.

[Inner City Blue]

TMNT isn't getting that great ratings because it airs on 4kidsTV. If TMNT had started on KidsWb instead, the show would probably be tied with Pokemon/Yu-gi-oh for Saturday mornings.But if it were on the WB, we would have ended up with this horror:

NinjaTurtles.com - Canceled WB TMNT Project Art (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/warner/warner.html)

[Anarky]

while the Turtle designs really do look more like vintage Eastman-Laird, that Shredder design takes a distant backseat to the one we have in 2K3. And Splinter looks like a drowned rat. These designs are all interesting but I love the look we have now. You're right about 4kidstv though. It's a truly horrible block. Now if the 4kids TMNT were on KWB, I'm certain it'd have better ratings. Imagine a 1 hr block w/ TMNT & The Batman. That's action figure GOLD

edit: plus, if we had the KWB version, we'd have teen April & teen Casey high school drama (and the obligatory Prom epsiode). I prefer 4kids young adults take on April & Casey

[Sharklady]

Gads, that WB Splinter looks terrible!

> plus, if we had the KWB version, we'd have teen April & teen Casey high school drama (and the obligatory Prom epsiode). <

Groan...

I'd call that an effective reminder; however many complaints we may have about 4Kids' handling of the Turtles, things could have been worse.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

For 4 years 4kids treated TMNT quite well. Got lots of products out, produced a fantastic show and set up for another theatrical movie. But 4kids will be 4kids and eventually they let TMNT down just like all their other properties.

Though the difference here is, chances are Fast Forward is gonna sell.

But FF is more than a different setting the whole show is getting a minor retool to be a bit more kid friendly (I would imagine it'll be less reliant on continuity than the current show) and they're adding in new kids characters for kids to relate to. Sounds like a mix between Spider-Man Unlimited and modern Transformers series... But I imagine it'll still at least be better than those. The art style is suppose to change a bit as well. So say the turtles do get through Fast Forward... what about the show after that? They'll still probably keep the same style just bring it back to the current time-line. Hmm... sounds like Red Sky to me. Which could work out or not... but one thing is certain. The TMNT as we know them now in this series are dead. But we were only going to get 1 more season like this anyway. None the less that season seemed to have a lot of potential and TMNT has some great "ninja stuff" but overall lacked a storyline based on improving their ninja skill or fighting some really evil ninjas. Battle Nexus had a bit but not nearly enough for a show called Ninja Turtles which actually emphasized the ninja part (unlike the old show, which I will always get a kick out of).

[Dark Fact]

TMNT isn't getting that great ratings because it airs on 4kidsTV. If TMNT had started on KidsWb instead, the show would probably be tied with Pokemon/Yu-gi-oh for Saturday mornings.
If it didn't get such great ratings, wouldn't it had suffered the infamous cartoon turnover rate years ago? The fact the show made it past 100 episodes proves that it's not just a good show, but it's a hit! Other cartoon series could only dream of making it to that milestone!


But FF is more than a different setting the whole show is getting a minor retool to be a bit more kid friendly (I would imagine it'll be less reliant on continuity than the current show) and they're adding in new kids characters for kids to relate to. Sounds like a mix between Spider-Man Unlimited and modern Transformers series... But I imagine it'll still at least be better than those. The art style is suppose to change a bit as well. So say the turtles do get through Fast Forward... what about the show after that? They'll still probably keep the same style just bring it back to the current time-line. Hmm... sounds like Red Sky to me. Which could work out or not... but one thing is certain. The TMNT as we know them now in this series are dead. But we were only going to get 1 more season like this anyway. None the less that season seemed to have a lot of potential and TMNT has some great "ninja stuff" but overall lacked a storyline based on improving their ninja skill or fighting some really evil ninjas. Battle Nexus had a bit but not nearly enough for a show called Ninja Turtles which actually emphasized the ninja part (unlike the old show, which I will always get a kick out of).
This whole addition of new characters that "kids can relate to" is a serious double-edged sword. The character(s) could prove popular enough to be a hit with the kids but it would wind up taking away the spotlight from the other turtles and the events of the show itself. What about when the season ends and the turtles wind up going back to their own time? Could the show really return back to its darker roots after the kid-friendly fare that was put up for 26 episodes? If anything, it could throw the show off-balance because the viewers are now expecting the show to be more kid-friendly.

And suppose that Fast Forward does flop, what would happen to the show itself? Will Playmates pull their toy line entirely? Will 4Kids just decide to cancel the show altogether and leave us stranded at that Season 4 cliffhanger?

I don't want this show to suffer the same fate as Reboot just because of a failed toy deal. I said it before and I'll say it again: I hope Laird knows what he's doing with this season.

[NightwingAngelo]

And suppose that Fast Forward does flop, what would happen to the show itself? Will Playmates pull their toy line entirely? Will 4Kids just decide to cancel the show altogether and leave us stranded at that Season 4 cliffhanger?

That's what one of the things I'm fearing most about the whole situation. The cliffhanger endingthat seems to be what we're going to be left with happens all the time these days. I wouldn't want to see it happen to the Ninja Turtles, especially since I think this is the best that they've ever been, and not having more of a proper ending for the show would just be a killer. :sad: And will the show ever return to how it was now?

[CyberCubed]

Guys, if Fast Foward is being written by the same writers who did Season 1-4, I don't think it's as bad as it sounds.

If Christopher Yost and the others are writing for the Fast Foward season, then it'll likely be just as great as the previous 4.

Now, if Fast Foward has all NEW writers, and all the old guys leave...THEN would be a good time to start worrying. However if the writers are the same, then I see no reason to think it'll suck.

[Simpler Simon]

If it didn't get such great ratings, wouldn't it had suffered the infamous cartoon turnover rate years ago? The fact the show made it past 100 episodes proves that it's not just a good show, but it's a hit! Other cartoon series could only dream of making it to that milestone!

Ratings only seem to be half of the issue with cartoons, since a lot of popular ones end their run at the obligatory 52/65 episode limit. TMNT pushing past 100 means one or a combination of the following:

a)it's a hit, just not a massive one compared to high-profile shows on other networks.

b)its a staple in 4Kids' lineup and theyd lose a sizeable chunk of their viewing audience without it.

c)4Kids recognizes the product potential behind the brand.

d)4Kids has cash to burn from their butchered animes, and don't think anything of keeping their only in-house show going.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

Guys, if Fast Foward is being written by the same writers who did Season 1-4, I don't think it's as bad as it sounds.

If Christopher Yost and the others are writing for the Fast Foward season, then it'll likely be just as great as the previous 4.

Now, if Fast Foward has all NEW writers, and all the old guys leave...THEN would be a good time to start worrying. However if the writers are the same, then I see no reason to think it'll suck.

It's not all the same staff but the staff isn't the issue really. It's the redirection they've already said they are taking that has me a little worried. I don't think Fast Forward will suck though, it just probably wont be as good.

And no TMNT isn't around still because it's a hit. It's around because the toys sell and because 4kids keep pumping money into it despite low ratings because lets face it 4kidsTV is a step away from a flop anyway and TMNT isn't bottom of the barrel for them.

[CyberCubed]

As long as 4kidsTV exists, TMNT will be renewed. We're guarenteed up to Season 6 for this show, but 4kids contract with Fox expires again after that.

If 4kidsTV goes down in 2 more years, and no other channel picks up TMNT, then it'll end at Season 6.

[Hades]

That's it? That's how the episode ended? :eek: :crying: :sad:

Man, that just plain out stinks. No, the episode was fantastic, one of the greatest episodes ever, but come on, it didn't even say "To Be Continued..." Are they going into the future from the boat, or does that happen after this arc? Or are they being sent into a Shredder ruled future?

[CyberCubed]

TMNT fans e-mailed Dan Berger about the "Lost season," here's what he had to say:

"The good news is, "The Ninja Tribunal" story line will be completed - the bad news is, it won't be airing on television in the USA.

4Kids Home Video plans to debut the entire "Ninja Tribunal" story arc on DVD in early 2007. This action-packed adventure will not be aired on TV anywhere in the US by that time - so they will be "straight-to- DVD" releases (at least in the United States - at the moment we're not sure if they'll air anywhere else in the world, but it seems unlikely).

We'll post more info about "The Ninja Tribunal" DVDs on
the site as soon as we hear more news from 4Kids."

So....we WILL get to see this story arc...if you buy the DVDs that is...and in early 2007. :/

Jeez, you would think they'd get the DVDS out over the summer before Fast Foward wouldn't you? Early 2007 is a hell of a long time from now, and we'll be a little into the FF season already.

Looks like a lot of people will be confused come this September.

[Ian]

Already made a thread about it. (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=164710) Can I make an impasioned plea for the conversation regarding the news to move there?

[Dark Fact]

Guys, if Fast Foward is being written by the same writers who did Season 1-4, I don't think it's as bad as it sounds.

If Christopher Yost and the others are writing for the Fast Foward season, then it'll likely be just as great as the previous 4.
Is it confirmed that Yost will be back for the new season? Even if he is, this whole term of "kid friendly" really worries me...


Ratings only seem to be half of the issue with cartoons, since a lot of popular ones end their run at the obligatory 52/65 episode limit. TMNT pushing past 100 means one or a combination of the following:

a)it's a hit, just not a massive one compared to high-profile shows on other networks.

b)its a staple in 4Kids' lineup and theyd lose a sizeable chunk of their viewing audience without it.

c)4Kids recognizes the product potential behind the brand.

d)4Kids has cash to burn from their butchered animes, and don't think anything of keeping their only in-house show going.
Seems likely. Do you have the Nielsen numbers by any chance?


As long as 4kidsTV exists, TMNT will be renewed. We're guarenteed up to Season 6 for this show, but 4kids contract with Fox expires again after that.

If 4kidsTV goes down in 2 more years, and no other channel picks up TMNT, then it'll end at Season 6.
I'm really hoping that Season 6 will be the mystic turtles season that is going to be released on DVD plus offer up some closure to the whole Stockman/Bishop arc if it will be the last season. I hate to see a series run so long only to get canned at a major cliffhanger. :sad:

[Storm Eagle]

I'm really hoping that Season 6 will be the mystic turtles season that is going to be released on DVD plus offer up some closure to the whole Stockman/Bishop arc if it will be the last season. I hate to see a series run so long only to get canned at a major cliffhanger. :sad:

Wouldn't "Fast Forward" be the sixth season?

[Andrew T. Hingson]

The Lost Season (5) is suppose to be about mystic turtles (at least that's one rumor). And yeah FF is season 6 or at least it was going to be. I don't think Bishop and Baxter will get resolve and that's a shame. Especially for Baxter.

[Undrave]

there's always a chance for Baxter and Bishop to still be alive in the future. It wouldn't surprise me to see Bishop with an additionnal century under his belt, he's already about 200 years old anyway right? and Baxter could end up using the same technology.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

At least Bishop should be in the future. Baxter might but if so I'd just feel bad for the guy. To live that long with such a lowsy existance really would suck.

[Undrave]

At least Bishop should be in the future. Baxter might but if so I'd just feel bad for the guy. To live that long with such a lowsy existance really would suck.

Maybe he'd be in a better mood with a new body.

[Simpler Simon]

At least Bishop should be in the future. Baxter might but if so I'd just feel bad for the guy. To live that long with such a lowsy existance really would suck.

Baxter isn't really immortal, as he still has a physical brain that can rot and deteriorate like any other living organism. Unless he programs a computerized version of himself, which could get kinda cheesy.

For any of the TMNT plot threads to have closure, the network would have to put their foot down way in advance and say "that's it, next season is the last." Most shows treat every season like their last, and while TMNT has the good fortune of being renewed well in advance, the problem is that if something like FF happens, we're left with a bunch of intriguing arcs with no payoff.

[Freedom Fighter]

Weird... this didn't feel much like TMNT. If it weren't for the Turtles constantly being on screen, I'd think this was a different show.

This was still a good episode, though. The Turtles relaxing from the 'mutation' incident and getting confronted and, eventually, beaten by some honorable yet powerful warriors. Weird seeing the 'bad guys' giving the Turtles every ample opportunity to try and win the battle. (Loved Mikey's nunchuk one-on-one showdown, too.)

The Turtles finding themselves fellow captives with some other warriors was intriguing, as was discovering their captors were the Ninja Tribunal, a bunch of guys in Shredder outfits. Apparently, they want them to subdue some evil force, one apparently too powerful for them to handle on their own.

Who is this mysterious force? (Unfortunately, we won't be finding out on 4KidsTV.) We've got to wait and see...

7.5 out of 10 for "Ninja Tribunal," TMNT's fourth season finale.

[Ian]

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/4kids.jpghttp://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/tmnt.jpg

Episode 4.26: The Ninja Tribunal
Original Air Date: April 15, 2006
Rerun Air Date: February 8, 2008
Written by Michael Ryan

Previously on TMNT: The Ninja Tribunal kidnaps the turtles, while mysterious forces kidnap the show's fifth season.

This week, on TMNT: 4Kids conmemorates the release of TMNT's Lost Season (how do you lose a season, anyway? They're huge!) by re-running the episode that began it all. MARVEL as wooden soldiers attack the TMNT. GASP as our heroes face not one, but FOUR Shredders. FIND the character played by David "Sanji" Moo. CALCULATE the number of ways one can misspell "Faraji".

[CyberCubed]

So tomorrow's episode is technically a repeat, huh?

Man, I remember how back in friggin 2006 I said how this looked like an interesting story arc. My god, this arc has been delayed by 2 years? Holy crap.

Goodness, I almost forgot about those wooden monsters they fought. I do remember the four humans on the boat and the four Shredder armored people...and the Foot Mystics going nuts.

I still can't get over the fact that we should have seen this arc almost a year and a half ago, and we're just getting it now. Good god.

[D Dubbs]

Well, better late than never.

But looking through this talkback...it does seem like a lot of people were really pissed... :sweat:

[Hades]

Where do you guys see it is going to be on? My listings say Fast Forward is on for both 930 and 10.

[D Dubbs]

Where do you guys see it is going to be on? My listings say Fast Forward is on for both 930 and 10.

It airs at 10 AM Eastern.

[bigddan11]

Where do you guys see it is going to be on? My listings say Fast Forward is on for both 930 and 10.
Most listings were never updated to show new episodes of the original series started today, but 4K!ds started broadcasting this morning my suspicions: Fast Forward will air at 9:30, and The Lost Episodes will air at 10 AM.

[PC!]

I find it amusing how they consider this episode to be one of the "Lost Episodes." Apparently they misplaced it between the first time they aired it and now.

[Caswin]

Turtles (and friends). Listen to me. You are fighting wooden opponents. You are surrounded by sources of fire. Do the math.

...yeah, never mind, go ahead and get whooped, plot goes on and all that... :shrug:

[TKnHappyNess]

Perhaps in their absence, Hun & the Purple Dragons have become a juggernaut in the NY underworld. And I'm certain there's more Y'lintian drama ahead.

If that happened, they would've heard about it in 2105. Which means when the turtles return, the Purple Dragons' days are numbered.

[Hades]

Wait, so was Season 5 only 12 episodes? I'm confused. They said 13 episodes, but they are counting this one.

[veemonjosh]

Wait, so was Season 5 only 12 episodes? I'm confused. They said 13 episodes, but they are counting this one.

Season 5 was originally supposed to be 13 episodes long, but the episode titled "Nightmares Recycled" was scrapped due to graphic scenes.

[Hades]

Season 5 was originally supposed to be 13 episodes long, but the episode titled "Nightmares Recycled" was scrapped due to graphic scenes.

What?! Why would they animate it too violent to the point that they canned it?

Anyway, is it true that there is a completely new series starting in the Fall that Laird and gang were told they would have nothing to do with?

[CyberCubed]

Anyway, is it true that there is a completely new series starting in the Fall that Laird and gang were told they would have nothing to do with?

The season in the fall is still under the same writers and Laird has to approve the episode ideas before they produce them.

Season 7 is going to take place right after the last episode of Fast Forward. According to info we'll still see some FF characters as regulars in the following season too.

[creativerealms]

What?! Why would they animate it too violent to the point that they canned it?

Anyway, is it true that there is a completely new series starting in the Fall that Laird and gang were told they would have nothing to do with?

There is a new season starting in fall. But Laird and gang as just involved in it as they always have been. For one thing the show was not accepted until 4kids Laird/mirage and Playmates finally came to an agreement for the new series season.

[TKnHappyNess]

What?! Why would they animate it too violent to the point that they canned it?

Anyway, is it true that there is a completely new series starting in the Fall that Laird and gang were told they would have nothing to do with?

Here's the summary and the reason why they canned it.



Raph, Don, Casey, and April’s evening salvage operation lands them a one-way ticket to Recycle World – the Garbageman’s deadly realm of refuse! As if fighting for their lives in a world of lethal compactors and shredders wasn’t bad enough, they’ve got to do it all with Hun – who’s not thrilled to reveal that he and Garbageman have something in common – DNA!

NOTE: This episode was never completed. The script was finished and some animation had begun when 4Kids pulled the plug because it was deemed too controversial for a children's program (apparently Hun and the Garbageman were going to be conjoined twins that were surgically separated at birth).

[PC!]

Call me naive, but what is it about separated conjoined twins that is so controversial? Surely the show has gotten away with worse.

[veemonjosh]

Call me naive, but what is it about separated conjoined twins that is so controversial? Surely the show has gotten away with worse.

Supposedly, the controversial part of it was that, after Hun and Garbageman were separated as babies, Garbageman was literally discarded by the surgeon like trash.

[Dark Fact]

Supposedly, the controversial part of it was that, after Hun and Garbageman were separated as babies, Garbageman was literally discarded by the surgeon like trash.
Wow, that is controversial! :eek:

Anyways, even though I've seen Ninja Tribunal already back in 2006, it was still good for another watch just to get things up to speed with the upcoming "lost" season.

[Anarky]

I was hoping they'd re-air this. I'm sans tv for the moment so it buys me another week to secure even a rinky-dink tube.

[CyberCubed]

Supposedly, the controversial part of it was that, after Hun and Garbageman were separated as babies, Garbageman was literally discarded by the surgeon like trash.

I think I also remember hearing the infant had acid poured on its face (which is why Garbageman looks the way he does), although I don't know if that was true or something someone made up.

Either way, shame it was never finished. I didn't care for Garbageman as a character, but it looked like a good episode and more development for Hun.

[Ian]

I actually think that the canning of Nightmares Recycled was a blessing in disguise. Not only does it mean we hear less from Hun's less-than-adequate replacement voice (I am super-glad Carey returns next season), I really don't like the idea of having the Garbageman, easily one of the show's worst characters, linked to one of the regulars. The only thing I think we really missed, I hear, is a rumored "Casey proposes to April" scene. Still, now that the episode is effectively decanonized, I wouldn't mind seeing what bits and pieces of the episode were completed as an extra on the DVD--although I don't expect to see it.

I'd accidentally taped over my previous recording of this episode, so I'm glad to see it again. Still darn good.

[CyberCubed]

The only thing I think we really missed, I hear, is a rumored "Casey proposes to April" scene.

Well they could still bring this up in the new season. The writers obviously know that scene never got to air with that episode, so it can easily be written in the script for an upcoming one.

We're never going to see Shadow in this show until April/Casey get married, (4kids ain't going to have an unmarried couple raising a child) so I say better now than later.

[Hades]

Agreed. I am glad that episode was canned, as I hated the Garbageman. Making him the brother of Hun is a terrible idea. What is this about Hun having a new voice though? When did this happen? Anyway, I do not understand what is so controversial, but whatever.

[Ian]

For some reason, Greg Carey dissapeared midway through Season 4, which is why Leatherhead had a different voice for that season, and why Hun did in his Fast Forward appearances. You'll hear his new voice when Hun appear this season; unfortunatly, it's markedly inferior to the original. Fortunatly, according to Wayne Grayson, however, Carey will be returning next season.

[Caswin]

Anyway, I do not understand what is so controversial, but whatever.Apparently, depicting the Garbageman's origins as being thrown away by the surgeon (like trash) as a baby upon separation. I'd say that warrants the "controversial" tag.

Fortunatly, according to Wayne Grayson, however, Carey will be returning next season.Good news as that is... there's going to be another season? I thought that this was it (what with a "lost season" only now being released over a year after the last aired episode).

[D Dubbs]

Good news as that is... there's going to be another season? I thought that this was it (what with a "lost season" only now being released over a year after the last aired episode).

Yes. There's a thread dedicated to the upcoming season right here (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=199747).

[CyberCubed]

We've known there was going to be another season since back in 2007.

TMNT is 4kids highest rated show on the block, no way in hell will they cancel it especially with the Playmates toys still selling as well.

[D Dubbs]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I think 4Kids would do fine if they dropped TMNT. The Chaotic TCG is off to a surprisingly good start, Dinosaur King's ratings rival those of TMNT's, and 4Kids has made several Viva Pi&#241;ata merchandising deals recently. And although the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise has died down in recent years, it still brings in money.

Now, will 4Kids cease production of TMNT? No, of course not, because it does indeed bring in a fair amount of profit. But if production of TMNT suddenly stopped for one reason or another, would 4Kids survive? Yeah, they probably would.

[CyberCubed]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I think 4Kids would do fine if they dropped TMNT. The Chaotic TCG is off to a surprisingly good start, Dinosaur King's ratings rival those of TMNT's, and 4Kids has made several Viva Pi&#241;ata merchandising deals recently. And although the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise has died down in recent years, it still brings in money.

Now, will 4Kids cease production of TMNT? No, of course not, because it does indeed bring in a fair amount of profit. But if production of TMNT suddenly stopped for one reason or another, would 4Kids survive? Yeah, they probably would.

Yeah, I know, but the TMNT ratings still make it one of 4kids powerhouses at the moment, although I wonder what the Lost season will do to the ratings now. But don't forget 4kids gets royalties from all the TMNT merchandize, which makes them very happy. All the TMNT toys, T-shirts, bedsheets, backpacks, etc. they get some money on.

I remember on Murphy's blog he said a TMNT camo T-shirt deal with JCPenny would make Mirage and 4kids $30,000 in royalties, and that's just one T-shirt brand for one store!

I also suspect 4kids might want to keep TMNT alive until a possible movie sequal, and the earliest it could be released is 2010. Since 4kids bought out the WB saturday morning block for 5 years, its possible that this show could have another three or so seasons left in it.