Details in Duke rape investigation emerge.

[Phantasm]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12080776/

wow....this is really disturbing.First that kid in Berkley and now these too...:sad:

[sun]

From what I have read, this is the single most underreported crime in the the country, perhaps the world...Although there has been an increase in reporting in the last decade, it is truly very very disturbing. I am truly saddened by these events and also for the thousands the unreported incidents,and the terrible pain, suffering, humiliation, and trama that victims go through.... Occationally it makes the news like this, but then fads away...Humans can be so bad, some men in particular are just awful. Booze and other drugs, causes many men to loose their sanity,and ability to act rationally, and is often involved. According to the latest news, the coach of the team resigned tonite, and the season has been cancelled...

[Zechs]

That's pretty sad, my biggest question is what affect will the womans job have on the case. Often times people will look at the womans rep and go from there even if it's wrong.

[G. Wen]

I know what you're saying. I can hear it right now, how many people say she deserved it because of her occupation. You know, no one deserves to be mistreated. I hope those guys aren't rich and can't hire lawyers, because then the lawyers will make it seem like it's the woman's fault. It's not.

[The Guitar Slayer]

Sadly, the reason why this case has received such attention is because of the racial and economic disparity between the two sides.

The vicitm was an African American college student who was going to another nearby uni and was doing this to put herself through college. The accused are all white Duke students and probably fairly well off in order to attend Duke. (Duke is not as generous as some with merit based aid, but they do particularly well with their athletics.)

Additionally, there's always been tensions with the students and the surrounding town. The students are generally very well off while the town is lower middle class if not less in terms of economic means.

If this was a white girl and a white team or a black girl and black team, it wouldn't be looked at nearly as hard. But if it was a white girl and black team, the fireworks would be equivalent.

[Weatherman]

If this was a white girl and a white team or a black girl and black team, it wouldn't be looked at nearly as hard. But if it was a white girl and black team, the fireworks would be equivalent.

I think it has more to do with the fact that it's Duke, period. They're supposed to be one of the top flight schools in the world. To have accusations iek this leveled is news no matter what. The racial and economic angle certainly fans the flames, but the mere fact that it is Duke is the primary factor to me. Heck, the women in the Univeristy of Colorado's scandal were white, I think, and that was majot national news.

Ya know, there's a time for team solidary. Criminal accusations are not that time. I hope they fidn out who did it and love 'em up. As for anyone else at that party, I hope they're evicted from campus. They're all compliciant in this atrocity.

[havokpryde]

I know what you're saying. I can hear it right now, how many people say she deserved it because of her occupation. You know, no one deserves to be mistreated. I hope those guys aren't rich and can't hire lawyers, because then the lawyers will make it seem like it's the woman's fault. It's not.
If I walk with gold jewelery and expensive platinum chains throughout the and impoverished part of town, the police will ask me if I was begging to get robbed. It's not her occupation, its what she did. Why do you think many strip clubs have bouncer, its not only to get people out I tell you. Going to party full of drunk horny men, then exposing herself, what did she think would happen? Being a stripper, though I find it personally disgusting, I have no problem with her choice to be one. Just like it isn't right to rob the anecdotal idiot above, it wasn't right to "sexually assault" the woman. However to absolve the stripper of all blame is like absolving our anecdotal friend.

And why must people assume there are racial overtones, merely because of skin color? The boys simply wanted something, and the girl happened to provide it. Nothing racial about it.

[Tash]

When I read the topic, I thought that it was about the member "Duke". :sad:


Anyhow, why do lacross players and football players seem to have this mentality? (not to stereotype, but the ones at my high school were the same way) I feel that they should try harder to to discourage the "frat boy" (for lack of a better word, no offence to fraternaties) mentality on sports teams. There's no reason for it. I think that's to blame for this incident.

[The Guitar Slayer]

If I walk with gold jewelery and expensive platinum chains throughout the and impoverished part of town, the police will ask me if I was begging to get robbed. It's not her occupation, its what she did. Why do you think many strip clubs have bouncer, its not only to get people out I tell you. Going to party full of drunk horny men, then exposing herself, what did she think would happen?

I find that view disturbing. So if I wear short shorts and a tube top on a hot summer day, does that mean I should be gang raped in the street? Sprayed with a hose? Well gee, guess I better move to Antarctica and bundle up.

She was participating in a business contract. She agreed to dance for these men in exchange for a fee. That's it. She didn't sign up for anything else but that. Strippers go to bachelor parties and other post-gme events all the time without any problems. Yet these kids decided it was ok to not only violate a contract, but violate her as well.

Read my lips: RAPE IS NEVER THE WOMAN'S FAULT. IT'S THAT MENTALITY THAT PREVENTS RAPES FROM BEING REPORTED AND THE PERP BEING CAUGHT BEFORE HE RUINS ANOTHER LIFE.


And why must people assume there are racial overtones, merely because of skin color? The boys simply wanted something, and the girl happened to provide it. Nothing racial about it.

Part of the allegations contain the fact that they did use racial slurs and picked her partially because of her race; there was another stripper there that night that I belive was white and she wasn't harmed at all. They picked her for this.

[zmanjz]

I find that view disturbing. So if I wear short shorts and a tube top on a hot summer day, does that mean I should be gang raped in the street? Sprayed with a hose? Well gee, guess I better move to Antarctica and bundle up.

She was participating in a business contract. She agreed to dance for these men in exchange for a fee. That's it. She didn't sign up for anything else but that. Strippers go to bachelor parties and other post-gme events all the time without any problems. Yet these kids decided it was ok to not only violate a contract, but violate her as well.

Read my lips: RAPE IS NEVER THE WOMAN'S FAULT. IT'S THAT MENTALITY THAT PREVENTS RAPES FROM BEING REPORTED AND THE PERP BEING CAUGHT BEFORE HE RUINS ANOTHER LIFE.



Part of the allegations contain the fact that they did use racial slurs and picked her partially because of her race; there was another stripper there that night that I belive was white and she wasn't harmed at all. They picked her for this.

Hmmm... I was going to post a reply along these lines, but GS basically said it already.

[Ajax]

Well it seems that the DNA tests didn't match any of the 46 Duke lacrosse players. So I wonder what happens next.


So if I wear short shorts and a tube top on a hot summer day, does that mean I should be gang raped in the street? Somehow this example reminds me of Dave Chappalle's bit at the end of killing them softly. I don't know if havokpryde meant it as a woman should get raped. But as one of those "enter at your own risk" type of deals. If your a stripper/dancer and your clothes are very revealing and your entertaining a bunch of horny, drunk men, you better have some kind of protection plan.

[The Guitar Slayer]

If your a stripper/dancer and your clothes are very revealing and your entertaining a bunch of horny, drunk men, you better have some kind of protection plan.

She did. It was called a business contract. Strippers generally stipulate what they will and will not do during the event; some will only go topless, others will go as far as the laws let them without being considered prostitutes. Either way, she had another stripper with her -- safety in numbers. Being dragged to a bathroom by herself and raped by three guys was definitely not in her plan. It's also not a normal occurrence, as I've mentioned above. Think of the bachelor parties, post-game parties, frat parties, and every other stripper oriented function that don't end like this.

Say I made a contract with someone to help them study. Does that mean that I have to bring a can of mace so they don't make me do their homework for them? I shouldn't have to. Business contracts, regardless of the occupation or service, should be respected.


As for the DNA evidence, the party was hosted by the lacrosse team. They weren't the only guys there; they likely brought along friends. However, it was public knowledge who was on the team, not who they associate with otherwise. This was just a start. Additionally, if she's being held down by multiple men, that gives a guy time to get a condom on, no matter how drunk (or sober) he is.

[havokpryde]

Well it seems that the DNA tests didn't match any of the 46 Duke lacrosse players. So I wonder what happens next.

Somehow this example reminds me of Dave Chappalle's bit at the end of killing them softly. I don't know if havokpryde meant it as a woman should get raped. But as one of those "enter at your own risk" type of deals. If your a stripper/dancer and your clothes are very revealing and your entertaining a bunch of horny, drunk men, you better have some kind of protection plan. Damn straight. I didn't mean she should get raped. The example I gave should have made it clear enough.


... All of your example have been flawed, because they all feature sane and other rational individuals. These men were drunk and for all we know hopped on drugs. Go on a street? Your not naked, and the people on your average street aren't drunk. Help someone with their homework? They're still rational.


RAPE IS NEVER THE WOMAN'S FAULT. IT'S THAT MENTALITY THAT PREVENTS RAPES FROM BEING REPORTED AND THE PERP BEING CAUGHT BEFORE HE RUINS ANOTHER LIFE. It most definately is if she is the one raping the man or woman. Understand this words like never or always don't work in this world. Things aren't black and white per say. Radical example yes, but point remains valid.


Part of the allegations contain the fact that they did use racial slurs and picked her partially because of her race; there was another stripper there that night that I belive was white and she wasn't harmed at all. They picked her for this. I have never heard this part, nor can I find a source. All I have found is that she is black and they are white. Which proves nothing.


She was participating in a business contract. She agreed to dance for these men in exchange for a fee. That's it. She didn't sign up for anything else but that. Strippers go to bachelor parties and other post-gme events all the time without any problems. Yet these kids decided it was ok to not only violate a contract, but violate her as well. Most of the events occur in public facilities like clubs, and bars. And you don't think some of these result in rape. Its just that this was Duke.


I find that view disturbing. So if I wear short shorts and a tube top on a hot summer day, does that mean I should be gang raped in the street? Sprayed with a hose? Well gee, guess I better move to Antarctica and bundle up. Try this, walking in the middle of the night to a club or bar filled with a bunch of drunk men. See what happens. These conditions more closely match the event and not the scenario you ploted out above. And see how sympathetic the police are. I bet their first question is what were you doing naked in a club filled with a bunch of drunk men.

[Ajax]

As for the DNA evidence, the party was hosted by the lacrosse team. They weren't the only guys there; they likely brought along friends. However, it was public knowledge who was on the team, not who they associate with otherwise. This was just a start. Additionally, if she's being held down by multiple men, that gives a guy time to get a condom on, no matter how drunk (or sober) he is.
This is what I read:


Attorney Joe Cheshire said even if the alleged attackers used a condom, it's likely there would have been some DNA evidence found suggesting an assault took place. He said in this case, the report states there was no DNA on her to indicate that she had sex of any type recently



She did. It was called a business contract. Strippers generally stipulate what they will and will not do during the event; some will only go topless, others will go as far as the laws let them without being considered prostitutes. Either way, she had another stripper with her -- safety in numbers. Being dragged to a bathroom by herself and raped by three guys was definitely not in her plan. It's also not a normal occurrence, as I've mentioned above. Think of the bachelor parties, post-game parties, frat parties, and every other stripper oriented function that don't end like this.Your right of course. I'm only saying that something like a contract won't stop a man from raping a girl. I wish it would. But it apparently it didn't stop those three guys. Look, I don't think anyone is saying its the girls fault she was assaulted. But you have to wonder what she was thinking. In skin bars bouncers are the ones that keep the order, but in these kinds of parties how are they safe? I know, the contract, but the result is there, sadly.


And as you said above, this not a normal occurrence, and in light of that you never now who can be telling the truth. Not saying the woman was lying but apparently she wasn't raped by any of the lacrosse players. Read the article in ESPN. It'll better inform you.

[havokpryde]

Your right of course. I'm only saying that something like a contract won't stop a man from raping an girl. I wish it would. But it apparently it didn't stop those three guys. As you said, this not a normal occurrence, and in light of that you never now who can be telling the truth. Not saying the woman was lying but apparently she wasn't raped by any of the lacrosse players.
The dancers, concerned for their safety, left the house but returned after one player came out and apologized. Once inside, "Two males ... pulled her into the bathroom. Someone closed the door to the bathroom where she was and said, 'sweet heart you can't leave.' The victim stated she tried to leave and the three males force fully held her legs and arms and sexually assaulted her" for about half an hour as she was "hit, kicked and strangled," according to the police affidavit, which only uses first names. The affidavit does not say what happened to the second dancer.
Did she name her attackers? So then the police would assumably know who they were, and test them for DNA evidence? Help me out here.

[Weatherman]

Did she name her attackers? So then the police would assumably know who they were, and test them for DNA evidence? Help me out here.


She didn't get any names, but they did do DNBA tests on all of the white players since she said it was three white guys. As of now, it's been reported that none of the players matched the samples taken off the woman. I'm going to stay out of the little controversy raging above. I don't think anything else really needs to be said.

[Chad Bonin]

Damn, everytime I saw this thread, I tried to not think it had anything to do with my fellow Toonami mod...

[Gokou Ruri]

I'm going to have to agree with havokpryde for the most part.

While I would never say rape is the victim's fault, I will say that common sense and rational thought can easily prevent it. For example, a young teenage girl decides to go to a high school or college party with drinking and maybe drugs involved, and then she gets wasted. It wouldn't surprise me to learn if one or more guys took advantage of her while she was drunk or maybe passed out; especially at a party where she only knows one or two people there and the rest are strangers from a different school. Likewise, she might not even need to be drunk to have a group of drunk guys take advantage of her. The girl in my scenario was very irresponsible: one for drinking in general, and two for being at such a party to begin with.

Likewise, wearing expensive jewelery and showing off a wad of cash in a bad neighborhood is extremely irresponsible and will likely get you mugged or killed for your stuff.

Granted, there's some scenarios where no ammount of planning or caution will help you avoid being mugged or raped. However, this sounded like a mix between the two. I'm sure there's nothing she could have done to get away from them since they overpowered her. But likewise, taking a job where it would be only two women for one hundred or more drunk, horny, college guys sounds like an extremely dangerous offer to begin with.

[The Guitar Slayer]

For example, a young teenage girl decides to go to a high school or college party with drinking and maybe drugs involved, and then she gets wasted. It wouldn't surprise me to learn if one or more guys took advantage of her while she was drunk or maybe passed out; especially at a party where she only knows one or two people there and the rest are strangers from a different school.
Being in college, I've been to drinking parties. However, I don't drink or do drugs. I'm just there for friends. However, there are guys out there that will put date rape drugs in fruit punch or coke because the taste covers it enough. The girl falls unconscious and that's that. It's still not her fault, nor could she have really done anything to prevent it other than lock herself in the house and pretend she's safe there; "keep an eye" on your drink doesn't really help anymore since some guys are bloody magicians with their slight of hand stuff.

"It wouldn't suprise me" -- it should outrage you and make you angry. Nor should you take it as "that's just the way it goes." It shouldn't go like that at all.

The best rape prevention is educating men. Women are not like your blow up doll that you keep in your closet. She is not going to like it when you try to do her with more than one of you at a time. Being drunk/wasted automatically takes away her ability to say no, and if you have sex with her, you have committed date rape. End of story. Committing a crime against someone, whether it be mugging or rape, is not acceptable, even if you're advertising "your goods" all over the place. No consent, not acceptable or excuseable.


But likewise, taking a job where it would be only two women for one hundred or more drunk, horny, college guys sounds like an extremely dangerous offer to begin with.
I don't know how many guys were there. However, I'm quite sure there have been a few really big parties that could compare to this that involved one or two strippers that didn't end like this. Think about how many people can be in one of those really big merchandised strip clubs/Hooters-esque restaurants. Free wings before 7 and lots of beer to wash it down.

[Phantasm]

While I would never say rape is the victim's fault, I will say that common sense and rational thought can easily prevent it. For example, a young teenage girl decides to go to a high school or college party with drinking and maybe drugs involved, and then she gets wasted. It wouldn't surprise me to learn if one or more guys took advantage of her while she was drunk or maybe passed out; especially at a party where she only knows one or two people there and the rest are strangers from a different school. Likewise, she might not even need to be drunk to have a group of drunk guys take advantage of her. The girl in my scenario was very irresponsible: one for drinking in general, and two for being at such a party to begin with.

Likewise, wearing expensive jewelery and showing off a wad of cash in a bad neighborhood is extremely irresponsible and will likely get you mugged or killed for your stuff.

Granted, there's some scenarios where no ammount of planning or caution will help you avoid being mugged or raped. However, this sounded like a mix between the two. I'm sure there's nothing she could have done to get away from them since they overpowered her. But likewise, taking a job where it would be only two women for one hundred or more drunk, horny, college guys sounds like an extremely dangerous offer to begin with.

Yep. I completely agree with you. Saying rape never is the victims fault is a statement derived too much from black and white thoughts to be completely plausible. More often than not these incidents are provoked in some way or the other. Its only common sense on a woman's part to ensure that nothing unwanted occurs because ultimately it is her body and the behaviour of the males around her depends on how she chooses to present her assets in their presense. It is her natural responsibilty to make sure doesn't place herself in a situation where sexual harm may be inevitable. The character of those in the environment around her is not a dependable factor when concerning her safety. Ultimately it rests majorly on herself and her alone.

And concerning the circumstances involved in this sad and unfortunate event, I'd say that the woman knew what she was getting herself into. Again, the protection of her body lies ultimately in her hands and not those whom she willingly chose to flaunt herself to.Common sense, its a college party full of horny drunk teens who would have a hard time controling their attitude towards her procative stance in a regular setting, forget this scene with her strip dancing while they all have too much alcohol in their system to even walk straight.:sad:

[Ajax]

The best rape prevention is educating men. Shouldn't we be educating women as well? ( Especially in these types of situations) If this woman would of cared more about herself and not money, this might of been avoided.

[William C. Maune]

Shouldn't we be educating women as well? ( Especially in these types of situations) If this woman would of cared more about herself and not money, this might of been avoided.

Both men and woman should definitely be educated. However, even if she shouldn't have put herself in that situation, that in no way excuses the other parties involved.

[G1Ravage]

Damn, everytime I saw this thread, I tried to not think it had anything to do with my fellow Toonami mod...

Especially since the abbreviated thread title on the main forum page says "Details in Duke rape..."

[The Guitar Slayer]

It is her natural responsibilty to make sure doesn't place herself in a situation where sexual harm may be inevitable. The character of those in the environment around her is not a dependable factor when concerning her safety. Ultimately it rests majorly on herself and her alone.
Harm in any form is always avoidable. Every human being makes a choice. Two wrongs don't make a right here. She may choose to work for her money by dancing, but that does NOT give a man the right to choose to violate her. NEVER.


Yep. I completely agree with you. Saying rape never is the victims fault is a statement derived too much from black and white thoughts to be completely plausible.
So in summary of your whole post: Congratulations, you just set the women's movement back...waaaay back. Now get your butt back in the kitchen and make your daddy some cheesecake before someone clubs you and drags you by the hair.


Shouldn't we be educating women as well? ( Especially in these types of situations) If this woman would of cared more about herself and not money, this might of been avoided.
First off, this is her JOB. She gets paid, just like you and me. It's just a job that may be distasteful to you, but it's still a job. With every job comes risks. If you're a construction worker, you could have a slim chance of falling off a building or get wallopped by a girder. Nobody deserves that, even if they walk around without their hard hats on. This was an outstanding circumstance where the buddy system failed, several men did something unexpectedly horrible, and the university closed ranks.

Secondly, women do tend to get more rape education than guys since they are usually the vicitims of such acts. What I'm saying is that the same amount rape prevention information should be given to both men and women. You'd be amazed to know what guys think pass for consent. Just like birth control, this is not just "a woman's issue/problem." The guy, whether he knows it or not, can be prosecuted for rape in various circumstances if consent is not clear.

[Ajax]

First off, this is her JOB. She gets paid, just like you and me. It's just a job that may be distasteful to you, but it's still a job. With every job comes risks. If you're a construction worker, you could have a slim chance of falling off a building or get wallopped by a girder. Nobody deserves that, even if they walk around without their hard hats on. This was an outstanding circumstance where the buddy system failed, several men did something unexpectedly horrible, and the university closed ranks.You assume a lot about people. Who said her job was distasteful? Who said she deserved to get raped? You never answered my question. What in the world was this girl thinking? She thought she was entertaining only five men, it turned out to be a lot more. Yet she stayed anyways. She left the house according to the article havokpryde quoted and yet she came back. Doing private parties is very risky, riskery than working in construction or what not. You never know what going to happen because of the drugs and Alcohol that are involded.

Edit:
This isn't some attempt to degrade women's stature or about blatantly villanizing men.It is about trying to evaluate an unfortunate and disturbing incident and putting forth the shortcomings on both sides involved, something which your very limited sense of feminism has you blind to. Amen.

[Phantasm]

Harm in any form is always avoidable. Every human being makes a choice. Two wrongs don't make a right here. She may choose to work for her money by dancing, but that does NOT give a man the right to choose to violate her. NEVER.

That a man has 'the right' to violate her was never insinuated in the first place. Just that the environment she chooses to thrust herself into shouldn't and does not come with the responsibilty of taking care of her.You can't go out in the wild and then blame some wild creature for seeking you out as a potential prey.



So in summary of your whole post: Congratulations, you just set the women's movement back...waaaay back. Now get your butt back in the kitchen and make your daddy some cheesecake before someone clubs you and drags you by the hair.

:rolleyes2 This isn't some attempt to degrade women's stature or about blatantly villanizing men.It is about trying to evaluate an unfortunate and disturbing incident and putting forth the shortcomings on both sides involved, something which your very limited sense of feminism has you blind to.

[The Guitar Slayer]

You assume a lot about people. Who said her job was distasteful? Who said she deserved to get raped? You never answered my question. What in the world was this girl thinking? She thought she was entertaining only five men, it turned out to be a lot more. Yet she stayed anyways. She left the house according to the article havokpryde quoted and yet she came back. Doing private parties is very risky, riskery than working in construction or what not. You never know what going to happen because of the drugs and Alcohol that are involded.

I interpreted your initial statement as a distaste for her line of work. As for what she was thinking, she was thinking about her job and her responsiblity to pay for her education and for the care of her child. I saw a news conference with the victim's brother, and he was made extremely angry by the fact that she was considered by most to just be someone with bad judgment or a money-grubbing stripper. She has responsibilities, and at the moment, this is the most lucrative way of balancing it all.

And you keep missing the fact that the vast majority of private parties with strippers don't end up like this. If what you say is true, then all clubs, parties, and social functions should be made illegal because anything can happen when men, women, and alcohol mix.



That a man has 'the right' to violate her was never insinuated in the first place. Just that the environment she chooses to thrust herself into shouldn't and does not come with the responsibilty of taking care of her.You can't go out in the wild and then blame some wild creature for seeking you out as a potential prey.
Men aren't animals. We as humans are plagued with the sense of a conscience and intellect. We all have a sense of right and wrong, and we all are held to laws that are based in this idea. We're better than animals. At least, I hope we are.


:rolleyes2 (...)It is about trying to evaluate an unfortunate and disturbing incident and putting forth the shortcomings on both sides involved, something which your very limited sense of feminism has you blind to.
My very limited sense of feminism? Listen, my darling high school cupcake: when you're out in the real world for a few years, you can tell me where I'm limited.

This isn't about feminism. This is about a human right to be safe and unviolated, no matter what your feelings are about her job or whether "she had it coming." Nobody deserves this as a human. Nobody should stand for it just because you heartily disapprove of her or her actions. She tried to do her job under contract, just like thousands of other women hired for private events and bachelor parties and strip bars and Hooters.

People get wasted in Hooters while trying to wash down those yummy hot wings! Is it less the man's fault for raping the waitress while they wait for the second round because she's THERE and showing off her boobs and gams? The woman in question here did the right thing by bringing a partner with her, but there is no way any non-athletic woman can fight off three men who drag her to a bathroom and lock the door behind them. This could have happened to another female party guest. Easily! If she wasn't a stripper and just another pretty college girl who showed up and had this horror show happen, would you still be making all these arguments about "what was she thinking!?" and "it was her fault, a bit"?

Oh wait. She is just another pretty college girl who's trying to educate and support herself.

[Bud 'n Lou]

:rolleyes2 This isn't some attempt to degrade women's stature or about blatantly villanizing men.It is about trying to evaluate an unfortunate and disturbing incident and putting forth the shortcomings on both sides involved, something which your very limited sense of feminism has you blind to.
So what, does your definition of feminism include blaming the victim of a crime?

It seems like a lot of people are making moral judgements about her because of her job. To say she's even partially to blame cuts the rapists way too much slack, and portrays them far too sympathetically. It's sort of alarming that people would think that way. If her profession puts her at a higher risk for getting raped than say the average girl attending the party, that still would not change the fact that she didn't ask to be raped. The whole definition of rape is that the victim has no choice in the matter. Why should she shoulder any blame for the actions of a group of degenerates? What about the girls who are flirtatious at parties and wind up getting raped? Are they to blame too because they allegedly "put themselves at a higher risk" than a girl who isn't flirtatious? At what point exactly is a woman to blame for her own rape?

[Ajax]

See I don't know why a lot this "putting words in people's mouths" is going around. No one is blaming the girl. No one is dissing her job. But that isn't even the point anymore. DNA Evidence has already proven that she was not raped by any of the lacrosse players, and this whole thing is just some he said she said type of deal. Not saying she wasn't raped but she wasn't raped by the people she is accusing. So who knows what the whole truth is?

[G. Wen]

O.K., here's the deal: whoever raped her did something illegal. She didn't want to have sex w/ them, but they didn't care. They took advantage of her. As a stripper, she had a contract with them to only dance around nude, if even that. Nothing more. This isn't Las Vegas. We all do things that are risky. For example: I like to go out on New Years Eve, which means I'm in a car, on the streets, where there are a lot of drunk drivers around. If one of them hits me, am I stupid because I chose to drive around during New Years Eve? Was that bad judgement on my part? After all, I knew ahead of time that many people drive around drunk on New Years Eve...

[Bud 'n Lou]

See I don't know why a lot this "putting words in people's mouths" is going around. No one is blaming the girl. No one is dissing her job.
No one, you say? Really? Then what did you mean when you said:


If this woman would of cared more about herself and not money, this might of been avoided.
If you're not talking about her job being a reason for her being raped, then what are you referring to?

Likewise, there's this quote from Phantasm:


Saying rape never is the victims fault is a statement derived too much from black and white thoughts to be completely plausible.
Then there's this from Galentone...


I'm sure there's nothing she could have done to get away from them since they overpowered her. But likewise, taking a job where it would be only two women for one hundred or more drunk, horny, college guys sounds like an extremely dangerous offer to begin with.
Finally, havokpryde had this to offer:


Going to party full of drunk horny men, then exposing herself, what did she think would happen?
....
However to absolve the stripper of all blame is like absolving our anecdotal friend.
I'm sure you'll point out that all of these posters were clear that they didn't think the girl was "asking for it," which is true. But then they each went on to say exactly how she was to blame. Some were more cautious with their words, but this is what it boils down to when you read between the lines. I know the way I phrase it sounds coarse and off-putting to you, but again, that's basically what it boils down to when you cut out the bull. I hardly think I'm putting words in anyone's mouths.

That being said, you're entitled to have that personal opinion. It's every person's right to decide what they think is decent and responsible for themselves. Frankly, I wouldn't put myself in that kind of position, but I won't diminish her experience and suggest she shares any blame in her rape because of that. My real objection is when that reasoning is used as a legal defense. That kind of reasoning is dangerous. Criminals need to be held accountable for their actions, and shouldn't be coddled by validating the idea that they're not completely at fault (barring certain cases of serious mental illness, of course). Such opinions have no place in a courtroom, in my opinion. The major question that needs be asked is, Was the victim forced into having sex against her will? The answer to that seems to be yes. The crime in question is rape, not whether or not her job is considered licentious by society.

[Lucky Bob]

Y'know, I really don't know why everyone has their panties in a wad over this. Especially considering, you know...


"No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman,"
That, combined with the allegations I keep reading that suggest the "victim" was already bruised and intoxicated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/04/09/duke.lacrosse.investigation.ap/?cnn=yes) when she came to the party seem to be pretty damning.

There's pretty good evidence that a rape may not even have occured. I'm quite willing to let the justice system work in this case to find the truth.

So why comment? Well, it's all about the attitude. I mean, here we have a questionable claim from a drunken orgy, and we get stuff like...


Was the victim forced into having sex against her will? The answer to that seems to be yes.

O.K., here's the deal: whoever raped her did something illegal. She didn't want to have sex w/ them, but they didn't care. They took advantage of her.


Part of the allegations contain the fact that they did use racial slurs and picked her partially because of her race; there was another stripper there that night that I belive was white and she wasn't harmed at all. They picked her for this.
...as if the rape was a done deal.

If this were any other case, the prevailing attitude would be "innocent until proven guilty!" Yet here, the suspects are not only rapists, but racist pigs, too. Not only are we able to determine a crime we were not there to witness, but we can somehow probe people's minds and catch their motive.

Y'know, because, women never lie (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/atlantic10/2005-11-04-lasalle-rape-case_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA) about (http://www.courttv.com/trials/bryant/090104_ctv.html) rape. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley)

TGS brought up some sob stuff earlier about rape victims who never come forward because they feel responsible. Has it ever occured to anyone that mass-media-overhyped fake cases may be more responsible for keeping actual rape victims in the shell because they think no one will believe them? I mean, you can only hype people up about something so much before they get dulled.

And let's face it. Rape victims get a lot of the benefit of the doubt. Rightly so, in my opinion. Men are sexual pigs. I know. I are one.

But when people abuse that privilege for personal gain, they do nothing but hurt the actual victims. Even real rape cases which are prosecuted seldom get nationwide Page 1A attention. Many fake ones, however, have gotten that treatment. Which ones do you think actual rape victims are going to remember as examples of how the public responds to and thinks about rape?

And if this case happens to be untrue, which it seems likely to be, then that's going to do more harm to the high-flown "women's movement" than anyone's opinion on an internet message board.

As to my thoughts on the case, I wish that the Duke players, guilty or not, would be kicked out of school and relegated to flippin' burgers at the DQ for the rest of their lives. Simply attending a drunken orgy with a stripper, in my book, is grounds for expellment. All the people who claim that they "know" the students and that they would "never" rape anyone miss the fact that they still had a drunken orgy. Does anyone expect to come out of that with a clean reputation? Shoot, I'm surprised rape is supposedly so rare in these cases. (A claim which I still haven't seen any evidence for, other than the usual lack of sensationalist media coverage for routine rapes.) Is there no honor code with schools, anymore? Crap, these people are going to run the country someday.

It's mostly because of this unbridled party attitude that I've lost all faith in higher education entirely.

And if rape actually occured, I say, hang the students by their reproductive organs.

But as to the validity of the rape allegations themselves, which as I recall was the original point of this thread, I am willing to let the system work this one out. Especially since the physical evidence points elsewhere.

Now. Is it too much to ask the posters here to do the same without the diatribes and crusades about philosophical matters that may not even apply to this case? I mean, if the rape never happened, you're only making a bad situation worse.

[Phantasm]

Men aren't animals. We as humans are plagued with the sense of a conscience and intellect. We all have a sense of right and wrong, and we all are held to laws that are based in this idea. We're better than animals. At least, I hope we are.


Technically no they are not. But I become skeptical once they have had one too many drinks and are forcing themselves on others...



My very limited sense of feminism? Listen, my darling high school cupcake: when you're out in the real world for a few years, you can tell me where I'm limited.

lol. So now you have made this into a 'my resume is better than yours' contest? Since you seem bent on basing your validity of arguments on personal achievements, I'll tell you this, it isn't exactly very wise to assume things about the darling high school cupcakes that cross your path, regardless of how much of a wonder woman you take yourself to be.

But I digress. Here's the thing, putting women on this higher pedestal where they assume a position untouchable, where they are taken to be devoid of all flaws and evil doings is not granting them the rights which you seem so upset about. It would, in fact be highly unfair to take them as the forever innocent little victims, stripped of their all by big evil men. They don't need to be protected in a narrow minded biased manner, they need to be be expected to be held accountable for any and all of their choices like any other human being would.


This isn't about feminism. This is about a human right to be safe and unviolated, no matter what your feelings are about her job or whether "she had it coming." Nobody deserves this as a human. Nobody should stand for it just because you heartily disapprove of her or her actions. She tried to do her job under contract, just like thousands of other women hired for private events and bachelor parties and strip bars and Hooters.

It wasn't supposed to be until your ideas about it couldn't help but leap to the center stage regardless of arguments trying to say otherwise. And once again, since you seem to be continually missing the point, Yes. NOBODY deserves this. Trying to make this as unbiased an argument as possible and shedding light on all aspects of this from all angles, regardles of your personal beliefs about that, does not equal saying that the rape was her fault.



This could have happened to another female party guest. Easily! If she wasn't a stripper and just another pretty college girl who showed up and had this horror show happen, would you still be making all these arguments about "what was she thinking!?" and "it was her fault, a bit"?

Could have. But didn't. See, again I'm making a comment on this one single rape case about a girl who strip danced and got raped.I fail to see how this supposed to a representation of my opinions regarding other and at this point, unrelated cases.



Oh wait. She is just another pretty college girl who's trying to educate and support herself.

Whoever said otherwise?:confused:



So what, does your definition of feminism include blaming the victim of a crime?

And yours inculde basing an opinion of the entire incident only on the fact that man raped woman and that alone? I don't see how shutting eyes to all factors involved so that the only thing in focus is those aspects villanizing only the males makes any sense. Such a judgement is not only biased and unjust but also not accurate.



It seems like a lot of people are making moral judgements about her because of her job. To say she's even partially to blame cuts the rapists way too much slack, and portrays them far too sympathetically. It's sort of alarming that people would think that way. If her profession puts her at a higher risk for getting raped than say the average girl attending the party, that still would not change the fact that she didn't ask to be raped. The whole definition of rape is that the victim has no choice in the matter. Why should she shoulder any blame for the actions of a group of degenerates? What about the girls who are flirtatious at parties and wind up getting raped? Are they to blame too because they allegedly "put themselves at a higher risk" than a girl who isn't flirtatious? At what point exactly is a woman to blame for her own rape?

Her job is an important fact of this case, something which it would be stupid to disregard. Keep in mind, it is because of this job that she was thrust in this situation in the first place. The simple point which people here seem oblivious to is just this: had it not been for her job, she wouldn't have been there. This isn't making a judgement which leans towards any side on the morality scale. This is stating a simple and true fact, the stating of which hsa it subjected to unfavorable interpretations on here. :confused:



Y'know, because, women never lie (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/atlantic10/2005-11-04-lasalle-rape-case_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA)about (http://www.courttv.com/trials/bryant/090104_ctv.html)rape. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley)

TGS brought up some sob stuff earlier about rape victims who never come forward because they feel responsible. Has it ever occured to anyone that mass-media-overhyped fake cases may be more responsible for keeping actual rape victims in the shell because they think no one will believe them? I mean, you can only hype people up about something so much before they get dulled.

And let's face it. Rape victims get a lot of the benefit of the doubt. Rightly so, in my opinion. Men are sexual pigs. I know. I are one.

But when people abuse that privilege for personal gain, they do nothing but hurt the actual victims. Even real rape cases which are prosecuted seldom get nationwide Page 1A attention. Many fake ones, however, have gotten that treatment. Which ones do you think actual rape victims are going to remember as examples of how the public responds to and thinks about rape?

And if this case happens to be untrue, which it seems likely to be, then that's going to do more harm to the high-flown "women's movement" than anyone's opinion on an internet message board.

Well said and a harsh truth that shouldn't be ignored.

[James]

This is a horrendously disturbing thread. There is no excuse for rape, period. Rape is an invasive mental and physical action which no job condones. You can't justify the idea that the victim is at fault in anyway whatsoever.

So whether it's sober, drunk or high, there is no excuse for rape.

Strippers, dancers and the like all perform a job which 99% of their patrons enjoy and have no interest in breaking their conduct. It's a performance, people enjoy it, the performer gets paid, end of story.

In the end, it boils down to understanding rape and the affects of rape. Rape is an incredibly intimate and violating event. As with any stressful event, remembering the details are hard. You have a car crash, remembering the precise details is pretty difficult. Make it something even more intimate and terrifying for some it's virtually impossible.

Of course, in a court of law, any failure to remember can really be used against you which is the cruelist part of the whole thing.

Furthermore, as soon as one says, 'well we need to teach women what not to do as a job or where to go' so they don't get raped, you not only take the ownership off the man to some uneccessary extent, you imply that people in these situations are the ones who will be targeted for rape.

If guys are drunk and willing to alledgedly rape a stripper, it's quite likely that they are would have tried it with any lady who came through the door. Rape is not as much about sex as it is power - and that goes for gang rapes as well as solo acts. It's the power, and whether you are naked or wearing 18 sweaters, it won't make a single bit of difference (except it would be harder to remove 18 sweaters - maybe they'd pass out by sweater no.8).

With rape we have to keep it simple. It's a man's fault if rape occurs. Simple as that. We need to educate men and women of that fact. Men need to know the issue of responsibilty, women need to have their rights enforced.

Do women cry rape? From what I've heard, it's rare to manage to endure the whole legal process without it coming out, but yes, it's possible. From my reading, there are more rapes which are lost in court because of weak evidence, flakey recollection and lack of witnesses that probably were valid cases of rape, rather than because of false accusations. A lot of rapes are domestic, hard to prove and happen all the time, yet we're not talking about those cases which men get off scott free, we're talking about rare verging on sensational cases where women cry rape..

But yes, anything is possible but these cry rape cases are far more rare compared to the thousands, nay millions of rapes that occur in the home and out every year. We need to focus on the majority issue rather than quibble and get over concerned on the more rare and exotic cases.

[Czar Gato]

Is rape ever okay? Hell no. The man- or woman, since there are cases of women raping men and other women- who perpetrates the act is the offender, and the way a victim dresses or acts shouldn't matter, it's still morally reprehensible and just plain wrong to take advantage of her because of it (not to mention the fact that women and men are raped for different reasons, so in some cases- such as someone having a vendetta against the opposite sex- clothing isn't so much a factor as percieved weakness or vulnerability). That's a given.

HOWEVER, it is in the potential victim's best interest to use some common sense. I'm not "asking for it" if I go walking in downtown DC late at night by myself and without any sort of protection, but it probably isn't that smart of me to do so. Was it her fault she got raped (if that is what truly happened, which seems more and more likely to not be the case)? Not at all. Could she have used more discretion once she got to the party and saw the unsafe conditions? Sure. The fact of the matter is as far as we've come, this world still isn't as safe for women as it is for men. It's not fair, but it's something we all have to live with if we want to survive.

Conclusion? I think it would be in everyone's best interest to educate themselves and others about the issues at hand, whether you be man or woman. Men need to be taught boundaries and how to respect women, and women need to be taught self-empowerment AND discretion. For a woman in this world we life in prevention is always the best medicine, IMO.

[Ajax]

This is a horrendously disturbing thread. There is no excuse for rape, period. Rape is an invasive mental and physical action which no job condones. You can't justify the idea that the victim is at fault in anyway whatsoever.You know, its kind of funny how drastic the change of personanlity you and TGS have exhibited here. I've kept close tabs on the 911 thread and you and TGS were the first ones to say the opposite of what everyone else was saying. Actually if I remember you said that people shouldn't really judge unless they know the whole story. Apparently, some of us don't know the whole story, because Lucky Bob and me (on a number of occassions) have pointed out that this girl might of not even been raped. Yet TGS and a couple of others have exhibited that there no better then the people who want to crucify that operator in the 911 thread.
Just cause a few us are actually saying "hold on, lets take a step back and really look at this" everybody thinks were condoning rape or making excuses.

This is not a clear and cut case. The Lacrosse team didn't break into this womans house and rape her. Some Duke students didn't jump her on the street and sodomize her in a back alley.

So the only disturbing thing about this thread is that people are always quick to judge, even those who proclaim they are not. Just cause some of us aren't jumping on the rape bandwagon, doesn't mean were justifying rape.

[The Guitar Slayer]

You know, its kind of funny how drastic the change of personanlity you and TGS have exhibited here. I've kept close tabs on the 911 thread and you and TGS were the first ones to say the
opposite of what everyone else was saying.

James and I see eye to eye on a few things. It kinda happens when you're friends.

As for the "difference" between our views on the two threads, I don't think it's inconsistent. Everyone was ready to execute the phone operator without thinking that they're something wrong with the system rather than the individual. There are rules installed for the protection of people in real emergencies, and she didn't break them when she did what she did. She made a judgment call when she was supposed to. It was just turned out to be incorrect.

Here, we have rules (laws) installed to protect women from being taken advantage of, whether it's sexually or in a business context. This time, the rules WERE broken, and the rape occurred. Hence, we were on the victim's side.



Actually if I remember you said that people shouldn't really judge unless they know the whole story. Apparently, some of us don't know the whole story, because Lucky Bob and me (on a number of occassions) have pointed out that this girl might of not even been raped.

I saw that story on Fox News -- Neil Cavuto was browbeating some poor person about it. As for lack of evidence, watch L&O: SVU -- there sometimes isn't any DNA became the perp uses a condom. Sometimes they make the victim take a shower after to wash away any evidence; we don't know the full story here yet. As James said, rape is all about power, and ordering your victim clean herself off afterwards is a definite power move.

The evidence that stays with me are the broken nails that were found in the house. As a girl who's seen her friends break their acrylic nails, it's a rare occurrence unless there's some sort force behind it. Those things are cemented onto your fingers. Considering how many (at least three, I heard) and the amount of pain she would have been in, I do think something violent happened in that house; nobody does that to herself for fun.


Yet TGS and a couple of others have exhibited that there no better then the people who want to crucify that operator in the 911 thread.

I wasn't aware that having a differing opinion from you meant that we thought we were vastly superior somehow. It's a debate, and people take sides. So what?


Just cause some of us aren't jumping on the rape bandwagon, doesn't mean were justifying rape.

As Bud as mentioned, there is a distinct lack of compassion for this woman. Regardless of what you or me or James or Lucky Bob or Bud or Phantasm or Czar Gata say, this person exists. She's real. She's human. Something happened to her in that house. I believe she was beaten and raped by several men. She had her nails ripped from her fingers in a struggle. The DA of any area is generally considered top-notch by the people that hire him. If he believes there is a crime here, then I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty, but remember, a victim is still a victim, no matter who the doer is.

[zmanjz]

Well, I think that this thread has run it's course for now.

When a more complete picture of what happened is available, we can look into this anew. But right now, there's too much baseless speculation and mis intrepretation/invective being thrown about. And while hypotheticals are fun, we're getting into a "My apples are perfect, so I'm right vs. My oranges are perfect so I'm right." .... since it's all speculation right now, either side can be right since they're arguing at different premises.

and this thread's not so much a discussion as it is people talking at each other.

So for now: CLOSED