film question

[Jack]

I've been thinking about collecting 8mm cartoons/films. My question is, what is the difference between super 8 and regular 8mm films? Is there a difference? Is it that super 8 films are silent and 8 mm films aren't?

Thanks in advance!


Jack :confused:

[Patrick McCart]

Super-8 has a slightly bigger frame and also sound.

8mm has the sprockets on one side of the film, Super-8 has the sprockets in the middle.

In my opinion, you're better off collecting 16mm. There's Technicolor 16mm prints of many cartoons that still have excellent color.

[lislebartman]

Wow, Jack! You're making me think...and on the weekend yet...

If I remember correctly, the difference was in the projection speed in which the film ran through the projector...

I had a sound 8mm projector way back in the late 70's/early 80's and I'll be damned if I don't recall what I did with it. I'm sure it would be worth a great deal of money today...

[Jack]

Thanks for the answers. So does that mean 8mm films are very low quality?


Jack :confused:

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Patrick McCart
Super-8 has a slightly bigger frame and also sound.

8mm has the sprockets on one side of the film, Super-8 has the sprockets in the middle.

In my opinion, you're better off collecting 16mm. There's Technicolor 16mm prints of many cartoons that still have excellent color.

Uh oh... Have to correct things here... (sorry Patrick),

Both 8mm and Super 8mm have sprocket holes on one side (the REALLY obscure 9 1/2 mm system was the one that had the holes in the middle of the film). The sprocket holes on 8mm and 16mm are the same size (8mm started out as 16mm stock), after thirty years of use Kodak finally decided this was a senseless waste of space on the film. They redesigned the sprocket holes to be a FRACTION of the previous size, making the frame much wider (consquently taller also). It was such a wolloping increase that when measured carefully it meant a 50 % increase in frame size, actually approaching the size of 16mm. A further bonus was that they discovered it was now easy to place a magnetic sound stripe on the Super 8 film.

The 8mm silent film ran at 16 fps, silent Super 8mm ran at 18 fps. Super 8 sound ran at standard sound speed 24 fps.

There are STILL some companies making licensed Super 8 (and 16mm) cartoon prints!!! And of some really, really rare ones no less. You can find used 16mm cartoons prints all over the place, and a number of Super 8 also. The 16mm rental companies clean their closets periodically. I saw whole bunches of new prints of licensed Super 8 Warners toons from the '50's (sound and color) in the Orient long, long ago...

ME??? I have projectors for Super 8, 8mm, and 16mm. Gotta get the Super 8/8mm ones worked on a little bit...

[Jack]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
The 8mm silent film ran at 16 fps, silent Super 8mm ran at 18 fps. Super 8 sound ran at standard sound speed 24 fps.

There are STILL some companies making licensed Super 8 (and 16mm) cartoon prints!!! And of some really, really rare ones no less. You can find used 16mm cartoons prints all over the place, and a number of Super 8 also. The 16mm rental companies clean their closets periodically. I saw whole bunches of new prints of licensed Super 8 Warners toons from the '50's (sound and color) in the Orient long, long ago...

ME??? I have projectors for Super 8, 8mm, and 16mm. Gotta get the Super 8/8mm ones worked on a little bit...
So only Super 8 has sound? Also, does that mean both forms of 8mm film have to be run on separate projectors?

I just thought 8mm would be good to collect because i see them everywhere, usually for very good prices... I don't think I could afford collecting 16mm Technicolor prints. :( Maybe someday in the future.

Do they still make 8mm film, BTW? I've always wanted to see if my "Brownie" movie camera works.


Jack :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Jack

So it's silent if it isn't Super 8? Also, does that mean both forms of 8mm film have to be run on separate projectors?

I just thought 8mm would be good to collect because i see them everywhere, usually for very good prices...


Jack :confused: :confused: :confused:

No Jack... There were some 8mm sound films (UPA cartoons, Three Stooges, and a lot of stuff from supplier Blackhawk. And a fair amount of silent Super 8, such as Warner cartoons in b & w from UA.

The picture quality is higher on Super 8, though when in motion it gets harder to tell. A high percent of projectors made from about 1968 onwards were "dual 8", capable of showing both formats. With the mass dissemination of SOUND Super 8 cameras around 1974-75 they went to making Sound Dual 8 projectors, as well as silent versions.

Super 8 was actually an excellent system. It was killed not because of any weaknesses, but because of the debut of VCRs at the same time as the giant run up in silver prices by the Hunt brothers (plus increasing oil prices, but oil is used for tapes as well...).

One last oddity that no one will remember... Was that there was a variant of Super 8, called "Single 8". Which was identical except made on a thinner, tougher film stock. More film could be thus placed on a reel. If memory serves it was an English concoction. Never caught on here.

[Paul Penna]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
One last oddity that no one will remember... Was that there was a variant of Super 8, called "Single 8". Which was identical except made on a thinner, tougher film stock. More film could be thus placed on a reel. If memory serves it was an English concoction. Never caught on here.

Single-8 was Fuji's answer to Kodak's Super-8. Projection was identical, but the unexposed film came in a different cartridge, requiring use of a Single-8 camera.

I collected Super-8 magnetic sound cartoons back in the 70s. Interestingly, many Warner titles were licensed for sale only in the UK, where I picked up a bunch at around the equivalent of $20 - $25, roughly the same you'd pay for US items of similar length. But these were 1970's dollars, remember! Darned if I remember what the titles were, though. I dumped my card file when I sold them all off after getting my first VCR in 1977. As I seem to recall, the British releases were exclusively post-1948 titles.

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Paul Penna


Single-8 was Fuji's answer to Kodak's Super-8. Projection was identical, but the unexposed film came in a different cartridge, requiring use of a Single-8 camera.

I collected Super-8 magnetic sound cartoons back in the 70s. Interestingly, many Warner titles were licensed for sale only in the UK, where I picked up a bunch at around the equivalent of $20 - $25, roughly the same you'd pay for US items of similar length. But these were 1970's dollars, remember! Darned if I remember what the titles were, though. I dumped my card file when I sold them all off after getting my first VCR in 1977. As I seem to recall, the British releases were exclusively post-1948 titles.

That's it Paul!! Single 8 was Fuji!!! Hadn't even thought about it in ages! I still have my little Super 8 collection... The Warner toons I saw in the Orient were indeed British in origin, probably from the same company that still has the rights.

[Patrick McCart]

Whoops.

Another thing you need to look for is the color information. Most 8mm cartoons (in color) have faded to red. :(

That's why I reccomended 16mm. Ebay seems to have a good bit of 16mm for cheap (always ask for color condition...red prints are awful to look at.)

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Patrick McCart
Whoops.

Another thing you need to look for is the color information. Most 8mm cartoons (in color) have faded to red. :(

That's why I reccomended 16mm. Ebay seems to have a good bit of 16mm for cheap (always ask for color condition...red prints are awful to look at.)

The 8mm UPA toons from Columbia held the record for color fading... I bought some brand new (mind you), that had already faded markedly, though into colors other than red (e.g. magenta, or just plain faded away). Obviously a poor choice of film stock to print on there. The film base itself OR storage can cause fading. (Whatever Columbia used was conspicuously poor). Conversely, 8mm color home movies shot by my grandmother from 1949 to 1956 are STILL as vibrant in all their color hues as when they were brand-new (careful storage in a very cool closet in a hot, dry climate). Films shot by my uncle in the identical time frame faded away to nothingness (poor storage in a warm place in a cooler climate!). Some film bases fade horrendously no matter what, others are very resistant. The Super 8 home movies in my experience appear not to have faded either. The prints I have of "Convict Concerto" and Warner's public domain prints when last checked appeared to be fine... Black & white prints are generally very stable.

As Patrick noted 16mm color prints (*or their descriptions) need to be checked carefully before purchase (also for splices and severe scratching). Besides fading, 16mm can go into "vinegar" breakdown. Most sold on Ebay won't suffer from this problem (one seller immediately sends any "vinegar" prints to the dump when he discovers them!!). Though by doing that, the seller MAY sometimes unwittingly be destroying the last surviving print of a film... Not a pretty thought.

Bob Clampett's sole cartoon for Republic "It's A Grand Old Nag " curiously never turns up on Ebay in either Super 8 or 16mm (though new prints of it were sold freely back in the long ago)...

[Larry T]

I have found a few Super 8mm sound cartoons in my days of trying to see all the classic cartoons while in animation school in the mid 80s.

I still have a Super 8mm colour print of It's a Grand Old Nag..... :cool:

[Thad Komorowski]

My aunt and uncle far away from where I live, showed me some cartoons in 8mm and 16mm. They showed me a Bugs Bunny (forgot the title), Tom and Jerry in "Trap Happy", Woody Woodpecker in "The Beach Nut" (B&W Castle Films Print), Andy Panda in "The Wacky Weed" (B&W Castle Films Print), and Herman and Katnip in "Mice Paradise" (Harvey print).


I recently went to an animation festival that showed uncensored WB cartoons in 16mm format. If anyone's interested in what was shown, here's the contents:

1 - "The Awful Orphan"
2 - "The Great Piggy Bank Robbery"
3 - "High Diving Hare"
4 - "Feather Dusted"
5 - "Tin Pan Alley Cats"
6 - "Bully for Bugs"
7 - "I've Got Plenty of Mutton"
8 - "No Barking"
9 - "The Big Snooze"
10 - "I Taw a Putty Tat"
11 - "The Stupid Cupid"
12 - "Rabbit's Kin"



-Thad

[BillC]

HI Jack,


If your going to collect cartoons on film
get 16mm. There some great deals out there,
and you'll find more cartoons in this format.

I picked up for $5.00 each MEXICAN JOYRIDE,
TOY TROUBLE, Conrad the sailor and a terry toon
wicky wacky romance the toons are complete but was missing
the main WB card which I can splice in from toons that aren't complete

What got me started was I found an old KODAK 16mm projector
at a junk store for $10.00


BillC

[Larry T]

........And if you like to scour through potential discovery sources in order to find rare 16mm or 8mm prints, you might want to pick up a copy of "The Big Reel"- it's basically a monthly newspaper filled with interesting stuff, but mostly of ads from 16mm film dealers selling movies, serials, and cartoons.

I have found many a rare print in there :D

Here's the contacts:

Big Reel
700 East State Street
Iola, WI
54945-9984
1-800-258-0929 (Ordering)

Subscription rates: 1 year $37.00
2 years $63.00
Outside USA 1 year $63.00

[BillC]

hey Larry T,

you got any toons for sale? drop me an email.

BILLC

[Paul Penna]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
The 8mm UPA toons from Columbia held the record for color fading... I bought some brand new (mind you), that had already faded markedly, though into colors other than red (e.g. magenta, or just plain faded away). Obviously a poor choice of film stock to print on there. The film base itself OR storage can cause fading. (Whatever Columbia used was conspicuously poor). Conversely, 8mm color home movies shot by my grandmother from 1949 to 1956 are STILL as vibrant in all their color hues as when they were brand-new (careful storage in a very cool closet in a hot, dry climate). Films shot by my uncle in the identical time frame faded away to nothingness (poor storage in a warm place in a cooler climate!). Some film bases fade horrendously no matter what, others are very resistant. The Super 8 home movies in my experience appear not to have faded either. The prints I have of "Convict Concerto" and Warner's public domain prints when last checked appeared to be fine... Black & white prints are generally very stable.

From the 1940s on, the most widely-used film for home movies, both 16mm and 8mm, was Kodachrome which, like Technicolor prints, hardly fades at all. Not surprising, since, like Technicolor, the color dyes are added after exposure, rather than being part of the film emulsion itself, and thus can be optimized for stability. (This is an exceedingly simplified description.) The big difference is that a Kodachrome movie is the original camera film and, due to its high contrast, isn't suitable for making prints.

Real dye-transfer Technicolor prints were made in 16mm, and these would be the real prizes to collect. 8mm and Super-8 films for the home market were made on standard Eastman material which is much more subject to fading.

Another factor is the condition of the source material. The Popeye color two-reelers were widely assumed to be public domain material back in the heyday of Super-8 sound, and I once got a "Popeye Meets Sindbad" which was purple and pink right out of the box, having been derived from a crappy original.

[Jack]

Originally posted by Thad Komorowski
They showed me a Bugs Bunny (forgot the title),
Wasn't it "Hare Tonic?"

Okay, you've all convinced me to go with 16mm film, I guess if you can run it in a theater, it must be very good.

Thanks for all the help, everyone!


Jack :D