Batman and Robin gay? (Warning: Adult Content)

[Beyond Batman]

If a thread can be labeled with lesbianism, this post about homosexuality should be just as valid. So please, take this light heartedly, not too seriously, and most importantly... not offensively.

I read a book titled, Batman Unmasked: Analyzing a Cultural Icon. Written by Will Brooker. This hardcover book analyzed Batman as a public icon. Interestingly, one of the chapters was labeled "Batman and Homosexuality" ...or something similar to that. But it addressed homosexual themes relating to the Golden Age Batman and Robin.

In a time where homosexuality was tabooed, a particular Batman writer seemed to openly address the issue of homosexuality. They talked about how Wayne Manor was beautifully furnished with fresh smelling flowers, how Bruce Wayne walked around in a robe all day, while his trusty ward, Dick Grayson and Bruce's faithful servant Alfred lived together. A large mansion only occupied by three men, groomed to perfection.

During that time, believe it or not, there was a lot of controversy over this. A lot of parallels were uncovered between Bruce and Dick's relationship and homosexuality.

Many would argue that their relationship was strictly a fatherly son relationship. However, seeing how Dick was so defiant against Batman could be seen as a lovers quarel or furthermore.

-Dick needed to always proove he could do it, that he could hang with Batman. Some viewed that as a way to grab Batman's attention, as if Dick always needed to be comforted.

-Bruce's playboy attitude, accepting then rejecting women, was a way of diverting his homosexual needs.

-Emotionally, Batman often communicated with Dick. Under the cowl, Bruce couldn't reveal his real emotions, but when he did, Dick or Alfred was there to listen.

-Remember the original, Ace the Bathound? Supposedly, according to that author, Ace the Bathound was introduced to draw attention away from Bruce and Dick's condescending homosexuality. Much the same way Batgirl was brought into the story. This and more is explained better in that book... but I'm sure you guys get the idea.

To my point. If people are suggesting hints that Ivy and Harley may possibly be lesbians, bisexuals, bicurious, etc.... than the Golden Age Batman and Robin could easily be suggesting that they were in fact homosexuals.

Now before you jump the gun, read the book. It brings up many interesting points and issues concerning Batman. Once again, the book is titled: Batman Unmasked: Analyzing a Cultiral Icon written by Will Brooker.

[Joe Tully]

I remember reading that DC had a lot of trouble trying to convince the fans that Batman & Robin weren't gay. Another problem was that the name "Bruce" was closely linked to homosexuality. One of the things that they did to end these ideas was to have Alfred was killed off for a while.

I'm not sure, but I think that this was also a factor in having Dick (I wonder if that name caused readers to wonder too?) move out and become Nightwing. Someone else probably knows more about this than I do.

[Cyclops]

You know, this kind of thing sickens me. I mean it's just a comic book, don't take it so seriously. This reminds me of this guy who came a college in my town, and said Disney says things like love the abuser, hate the abuse (Beauty and the Beast).

[Maxie Zeus]

This has the capacity to get very ugly very quickly. Anyone who responds to this thread must be on his or her best behavior. Board mods will be watching this thread very closely.

[The Game]

I think this whole idea is ridiculous, but kinda funny to look at. There is some evidence (I mean Robin wore hot pants) but I highly doubt that any writers etc. ever wanted to convey that message.

Just something encidental and noteworthy, but not true.

[James Harvey]

I remember reading in an old book called The Comic Book that this implied homosexuality caused boys to do deviant things. In that book there was a picture of the guy reponsible (William...something) for all this controversy pointing to a picture of Robin. He was distinctly pointing at Robin's hot pants and all I could do was laugh. I can't believe something so small caused things like huge book burnings, comic book racks to be destroyed, and fans being chastised for reading them. The mob mentality this created (and the Comics Code Authority...*cough*) was just mind blowing and ridiculous. I think this is also addressed in Batman: History as well. The controversy this created also lead to the infamous spacey/sci-fi stories of 1960's.

It's amazing how some read too much into this kind of things...

[Failure]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
It's amazing how some read too much into this kind of things...

When people have much too much time on their hands...

[Karkull]

I don't doubt it, but the Golden Age Batman & Robin were merely following trends already established by the earlier pulp heroes (Doc Savage) where they lived exclusively in the world of men and kept all women at arm's length. I don't know enough about pulp heroes as to why they were written that way, but it's enough to question their sexuality at the very least.

[The Guitar Slayer]

The thing you have to remember is that the Golden Age was a much, much, much more innocent time. This was right before Equal Rights, the sexual revolution of the '60s and '70s, and long before cable television. I doubt DC was even thinking about the possiblity of a problem like this. Batman was created in 1939 (?), and Robin came in in the '40s. This was not an issue for them until the '60s. Sex was a hush-hush subject til the mid to late 1960s then BOOM!, all at once this stuff came to light. All of the sudden, close male relationships were put under scrutiny. Kirk and Spock and the Lone Ranger and Tonto were also characters that got this treatment as well.

The revolution caused a rapid evolution in mainstream media. "We can't do this because people will think...." the television producers would say. Ed Sullivan wanted Mick Jagger to change the words to "Let's Spend the Night Together" to "Let's Spend Some Time Together," and Jagger did. He tried the same thing with the doors and Jim Morrison on "Light My Fire" (drug reference: "Girl we couldn't get much higher"), but that didn't work out....Jim "forgot" ;). The Stones went along and were accepted, the doors didn't and they were exiled. Thus also the guilt trip on comic book readers and publishers for not going along.

If DC wants to say a character is gay or lesbian, fine and well. We have to respect them when they say "no, he/she is not gay/lesbian" also. The period of the 1960s and 1970s changed America's mindset forever.

To say the least, we've all come a long way.

Peace and Rock 'n' Roll
The Guitar Slayer :cool:

[Bud 'n Lou]

Unlike the Harley and Ivy situation, I don't see any evidence of a homosexual relationship between Batman and Robin. To me, the name Bruce, and the donning of "hot pants" (which look more like speedos to me, by the way) have no bearing on sexual preference. As thegame8866 said, I doubt that the writers had intended the characters to be gay. Then again, I'm only familiar with the animated universe, so maybe I'm missing something.

Also, an observation...

I was watching an episode of SNL the other night, and they had a skit that featured a "gay Hilter." The audience seemed to enjoy it, but it made me think...would the crowd have reacted so positively if they portrayed a well-liked person as being so stereotypically gay? Or would they have taken it as a grave insult and booed Chris Katan off the stage? Is it only ok to suggest a person/character is gay as long as we don't like them to begin with?

[Bobby Boy 101]

god, its like anybody that has a ward is automatically a child mollestor, or the lil lad could even like it!

Just like in the Halrey and Ivy situation (which I think is much more likely to be gay than this), people are LOOKING for things to call gay, or to just critisize in general. Like when Ricky Martin got famous, people got jealous and said he was gay. *gasp!* Its like anybody that people imortalize get ridiculed for things that arent necessarily true.

just because gays are in the minority, people act like its a bad thing

Next thing u know people wont be able to have same-sex roomies without people throwing the gay card at them

[NewMaxFranklin]

My uncle is named Bruce and he is gay. Just though I'd add that.

[DR. BELCH]

--see the "Man-Man and Boy-Boy" ep of The Ripping Friends? That played heavily on the homoerotic/pedophilia overtones of Batman (one scene in particular suggested a...no, I won't say it, it's banworthy ;) ). "That ain't fleshtone!...This [holding up a chocolate bar] is fleshtone!"

[Brian Cruz]

Originally posted by Joe Tully
I remember reading that DC had a lot of trouble trying to convince the fans that Batman & Robin weren't gay. Another problem was that the name "Bruce" was closely linked to homosexuality. One of the things that they did to end these ideas was to have Alfred was killed off for a while.

I'm not sure, but I think that this was also a factor in having Dick (I wonder if that name caused readers to wonder too?) move out and become Nightwing. Someone else probably knows more about this than I do.

Yup, you're right. In an issue of DC's Silver Age Classics (the one that reprints the first "new look" Batman issue), the "liner notes" said that Alfred was killed off because of grumblings about three men living together. Then Dick Grayson went off the college a few years later (though he didn't become Nightwing until the mid 80s). So, although many find the notion absurd, it has had a direct effect on the character's histories.

[Beyond Batman]

Just to clarify, the homosexual parallels root from the Golden Age Batman... not from the current Batman we see in the comics or in the animated series.

I just want to point out... it's interesting how many people were quick to judging that Ivy and Harley are potential lesbians, but the idea that the Golden Age Batman and Robin may've been potentially gay seems harder to grasp. Is it because female lovers are more accepted than male lovers? The observations many people have pointed out about Ivy and Harley, leading to thier potential "in the closet homosexuality" are just the same in the Golden Age Batman and Robin... even more suggesting.

Those who watch Saturday Night live, I'm sure you've seen the "Ambiguously Gay Duo" skits. It's obviuosly an extremity spoof rooted from Batman and Robin, pointing out their homosexual behavior.

Before you are quick to judge and say "NO, that is absolutely wrong, Batman and Robin weren't gay that's absurd... people just have too much time on their hands..." If people made the observation that Harley and Ivy are lesbians, this is the same concept.

You should check out that book. The idea of the Golden Age Batman being gay, IMO, I think is pretty funny. Really, it's an idea you should take lightheartedly. When I was reading that book, although the concepts were true in all it's perspectives, I got a good laugh out of it.

[The Game]

Is it because female lovers are more accepted than male lovers?

Yes they are. Most men are more accepting of a lesbian relationship than a gay one. Why? I'm in high school and I'll let you know that not a day goes by without hearing multiple gay-slurs as remarks, hell I'm not gonna lie, I say them myself some times. Young men in our country have basically decided that it is bad to be gay and gays are constantly on the bad end of cruel jokes.

On the other hand, most men find the idea of a female-female relationship appealing... In a certain way, if you know what I mean.

Lets get down to it: Batman and Robin aren't and never had been gay. Harley and Ivy aren't or ever had been gay, this whole thing is just homophobic people bringing up useless points.

[Beyond Batman]

We are all intelligent, mature, and responsible people here. Just a friendly reminder, please keep these posts clean and mature. Don't post anything insulting and keep the responses respectful. Such a controversial topic like this can be handled well manered, and I trust everyone here will do so. Thank you everyone.

[Calhoun07]

I don't think it's reaching at all or reading too much into those Batman stories to think that. I know alot of people jumped down that one preacher's case for coming out saying that the Teletubbies were gay (which he didn't actually say that, it was a fact that another news source brought up that he latched onto, but since his name was bigger, he got ridiculed.) In the case of the Teletubbies, the creator IS gay. That's not to say I think he's deliberatetly putting hidden messages into the Teletubbies to make kids corrupt, but adults can see where the gay references come from.

Again, these things are very subtle, and most kids are not going to read Batman and draw these same conclusions. Likewise, when I was little and used to watch Match Game in the morning, I never thought anything wierd about Paul Lynde (well, he was on Hollywood Squares, but still...) or about Charles Nelson Reily. But I watch those old game shows now and I can see where those two come off as quite gay on the camera. I don't think they are pushing it or screaming their life style out to make everybody uncomfortable to or to subvert people, it's just the way they are.

So perhaps the writer who worked on those Batman stories was gay too? Maybe he unintentionally put in his own world views into the stories, and it was subtle enough that some people would go, "Oh, you're just reaching" but most people can see it. But I don't think it's such a bad thing that we need to worry about it. I think most kids wouldn't even get it if it was in front of them.

Well, if it wasn't for those old Batman stories, we wouldn't have the Ambiguously Gay Duo, would we?

[Maxie Zeus]

This topic launched just a bit too soon. The Old Maid (who's having trouble logging on) showed me a draft of an essay where she talks about the whole "sexualized Batman" thing, and it's history. Very interesting stuff. She's aiming to get it up in WF's "Pro vs. Con" section, but maybe we can goad her into posting it here if this thread doesn't flame out.

[dc_gothamite]

This is all i have to say on the subject... watch "Mask of the Phantasm," ""Sub-Zero," "Out of the Past," "Dead Man's Hand," and the "Demon's Quest."

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by dc_gothamite
This is all i have to say on the subject... watch "Mask of the Phantasm," ""Sub-Zero," "Out of the Past," "Dead Man's Hand," and the "Demon's Quest."

Well, that would be irrelevant since we are not talking about the Batman and Robin from the animated series here. Just the Golden Age Batman.

[Beyond Batman]

Yes indeed Calhoun07, this is pertaining to the golden age Batman and Robin. Maybe I didn't clarify that enough for dc_gothamite. :rolleyes: This subject matter deals with Batman in the early 60's.

[ZorBrak]

Myabe I missed somthing but everyone keeps saying the name Bruce, is closely linked to homosexuality, why is this?

[Bud 'n Lou]

It's called stereotyping (to put it the nicest way possible).

[Joe Tully]

Yup, I don't know if there's any clear reason why the stereotyping began and why this name was associated with homosexuality. As an interesting sidenote, during the 80s Hulk show, the Hulk's alter-ego was named Robert Banner instead of Bruce (the name from the comics) for this reason.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Joe Tully
Yup, I don't know if there's any clear reason why the stereotyping began and why this name was associated with homosexuality. As an interesting sidenote, during the 80s Hulk show, the Hulk's alter-ego was named Robert Banner instead of Bruce (the name from the comics) for this reason.

So if he had been named Bruce Banner, he would have been hitting on old Thunderbolt Ross instead of Betty?? :eek:

[Nightflower]

I just want to point out... it's interesting how many people were quick to judging that Ivy and Harley are potential lesbians, but the idea that the Golden Age Batman and Robin may've been potentially gay seems harder to grasp. Is it because female lovers are more accepted than male lovers? The observations many people have pointed out about Ivy and Harley, leading to thier potential "in the closet homosexuality" are just the same in the Golden Age Batman and Robin... even more suggesting.

It's too early in the morning to make an intelligent response, so I'll just comment on one of the questions posed. I think the fact that more people are apt to be outraged over allegations about Batman and Robin rather than Harley and Ivy has less to do with f/f lovers being more accepted than m/m lovers (Although I do agree that they are; However, have you ever seen the rise of yaoi communities...?) than it does with the time of the work and its content.

For example, some psychologist analyzed Anne of Green Gables and said that Anne and Diana are lesbians, and their relationship is more erotic and passionate than the relationship of Anne and Gilbert (Her HUSBAND, dangitall). I don't know about you, but I think this sounds ridiculous- Anne of Green Gables was originally a book intended for children, and the author probably didn't have a single thought of sexual overtones in her mind when she wrote it.

Let's look at Harley and Ivy. You go to Bruce Timm's Gallery on popcultureshock (http://www.popcultureshock.com/bt/), look at all the pictures of Harley and Ivy cuddling, and tell me with a straight face that Bruce was thinking strictly platonic. The reason Harley and Ivy may have more speculation was that they were created in a time, when yes, gay couples were accepted, and yes, it's well known that guys seem to have a thing for lesbians. Was this true of the 1930s-1940s Batman? I don't think so (Then again, my history's a little rusty, so debunk me if you can). We also are aware of certain facts about comics back then: little female presence, sex is a no-no. With these facts in mind, it is easier to take Batman and Robin more seriously and less as an ambiguously gay duo.

[MattL.]

Batman and Robins relationship is, was, intended to and should be a father-son relationship. Lets put the original Robin costume aside for the moment and just chalk it up to bad design idea on Kanes part.

Lets look at the facts. Bruce basically adopted Dick Grayson when he was **10 years old** (or possibly older but still a child nonethless) Do you really think a father who adopts a child is going to suddenly have romantic and sexual feelings for him the day he hits 17 or 20? Especially when you consider this is Batman we're talking about.

To me, this father-son relationship is one of the most intresting and touching things about the entire Batman legend and when people try to turn it into a homosexual fantasy its sad, demeaning, and ultimately insulting. Say what you will, but its ultiamtely taking a pure idea and turning into a dirty-joke.

and before any of you even *think* about jumping the gun on me let me finish. I've roomed with someone who's bi and have freinds who are gay, lesbian etc you can just put that pitchfork down right now.

I dont find the idea to be insulting because of the insinuation of them being gay as much as I find insulting because it stomps on the father-son aspect and basically makes Bruce Wayne into a child molester. That I find *very* insulting.

Also this is one of those topics that gets brought up all the time just like the endless ream of "vs". topics and is equally pointless and stupid.

and btw, yes I have read Batman Unmasked and am aware of the points the author presents. Good book, but my arguement still stands.

Its a father-son relationship. A strained one often times, but one nontheless. *That* is the nature of love as it pertains to Batman and Robin.

[Maxie Zeus]

I agree with MattL that the Batman-Robin relationship is a paternal one. The Batgirls got introduced to take the "curse" off the relationship when people started asking questions; The Old Maid (in that essay I mentioned earlier) argues that this was the worst thing they could have done, because it explicitly made Batman a sexualized creature, and one you make it clear he is "getting some" you start wondering who he's getting it from and why he seems more comfortable with a young boy in the house and not a woman. So the questions just got hairier.

It's worth mentioning that the whole homosexuality issue was introduced by a psychologist and is championed by literary critics of the sort who don't care much about authorial intentions. The psychologist can say that Wayne is gay even though he doesn't realize it (ah, the wonders of the subconscious), and the critics can argue that the characters can have properties and attributes that the authors didn't intend to give them. You and I can say that because Kane never intended Batman to be gay that he isn't gay, but that will never convince those who advance the claim.

[Manhunter]

You can all thank Dr. Frederic Wertham and his anti-comic book novel "Seduction of the Innocent" for this topic.

[The Mad Hatter]

Ah, so once again we come to the thorny issue of authorial intent. In the literary analysis world, some people tend to stay closely with what the author intended as far as a book's particular meaning. Others, however, completely discount it... they feel that they author could have introduced something subconsciously into the work without even realizing it, and that it's worth considering. Others feel that the author's intent doesn't matter at all, because once a work is finished, it remains "organic" in that its meaning can be reinterpreted by whoever reads it.

As for me, while I enjoy digging up subtle, less-than-obvious meanings, I tend to stick with authorial intent. And I agree, the Batman-Robin dynamic has always struck me as a father-son one. A really dysfunctional father-son dynamic, but hey...

As for the Hulk... in the TV series his name was David Banner. In the comics, officially, his name is Robert Bruce Banner. And yes... in a few instances where the Hulk (the intelligent version) tried to start a new life working for a blind man, he was called Bob! :eek:

[Failure]

I like going into subtle interpretations, but I think it's kind of bogus when people start analyzing the subconscious intentions of authors and such. More often than not, people see what they want to see and then use the subconscious as an excuse for their views.

[Nass]

Bruce liked Talia, and especially Selina, so how the heck is he gay? Him and Dick AlWAYS disagreed on something, and the Batman/Robin relationship only went over well because they looked at it as a working relationship, back at the cave and out of costume I assume they went back to, if anything, a father/son relationship. I think of it as more of a mentor and student thing. The comics and shows are the legend of Batman, its the only thing thats certain. People always whip out the handy "You never see what they do when their not fighting crime!" story or "Did they go to gay bars when their not running around in tights?" or even what one kid at my school has asked me, "Arn't you gay if you like to wear tights or look at guys in tights?" (which was supposed to be an insult on ME and the comics). The point is, DC's editors, the Batbook writers, and of course, the late, great, Bob Kane, are the only ones to EVER know Batman, they made him. Catwoman, Talia Ghul, Barbra Gordon, and any other love interests of Dick and Bruce have been here to show their NOT GAY. Not that there's any thing wrong with that.

[Calhoun07]

I belive in just about anything you can find undertones of sexuality. This topic was really touched well upon in Chasing Amy when the sexuality of Archie from Archie comics was discussed with hilarious results. In the end, I don't think it really matters what undertones people see in the comics, as I am sure everybody could find something deviant in just about anything (heck, even Burt and Ernie from Sesame Street are said to be gay. Well, they might have something there...) and I think that is because sexuality is a part of life and who we are, and to see these things in comics, TV, movies, and what have you is just natural. So while people may get up in arms to think that their favorite comic book heroes may have alternative sexual desires, I also think it's natural for people to read these things into these types of stories. They are not just comic book characters or cartoon characters, as one poster suggested in the Harley thread. This is art that reflects life as we know it, good or bad, whether we agree with it or disagree with it. And I think that if people are disagreeing with it, then that is natural and good and healthy.

[Beyond Batman]

C'mon guys... we all know Batman and Robin are not gay. Bruce is a very masculine playboy who's had his list and fair share of women. Dick and Tim has had former girlfriends. So yes, we've established that they are not gay. But I'm not talking about the Batman and Robin of today. I'm refering to the Batman of the early 60's. The good ol' historical golden age Batman. I think I've established that many times in my posts. :confused: The days when Batman called Robin "ol chum" and Robin wore fairy pointed shoes, green scaled speedos, and tights. Talia, Selina, and all of Batman's love interests weren't even developed yet... I'm refering to the little details that point out subtle homosexual behavior between the golden age Batman and Robin, much of which were pointed out by a handful of psychologists. Whether you may agree with this concept or not, it's out there. Just the same way many people are making the observation that Harley and Ivy may possibly be homosexual partners.

[Karkull]

Okay, the Golden Age Batman and Robin aren't gay...but, due to how characters were written back then (no women at all, only male characters allowed), they sure came off looking like they were.

Besides, even though this was added in later, that Batman married Catwoman and had a daughter. Case closed.

As for Robin...uh, help me out here.

[DerekPowers]

doesnt the amibiguously gay duo on snl parody the batman and robin relationship from the 60s?

anyway, i just saw a book in my local comic shop that was written by the burt ward ( i think thats his name) the guy who played robin on the 60s tv show, and one of the main focusses of the book seemed to be the implied gay relatonship between batman and robin, and stuff of that matter. now wheter its true or was emphasised just to sell more books, i cant say.

but i'd say in the 60s comics, its possible the writers wrote the characters to imply gay stuff. i'd say thats possible. but i dont think anyone looks at todays batman and robin as being gay, its pretty clear they're not.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Karkull
Okay, the Golden Age Batman and Robin aren't gay...but, due to how characters were written back then (no women at all, only male characters allowed), they sure came off looking like they were.

Besides, even though this was added in later, that Batman married Catwoman and had a daughter. Case closed.


Dude, I am not saying Batman is gay, but dude, gay men DO marry and have kids. Not all, but there are gay men trying to obscure their lifestyles by making them appear "normal." Ever read up on the life of Oscar Wilde, for example?

[Karkull]

Originally posted by calhoun07
Dude, I am not saying Batman is gay, but dude, gay men DO marry and have kids. Not all, but there are gay men trying to obscure their lifestyles by making them appear "normal." Ever read up on the life of Oscar Wilde, for example?

Interesting...maybe the Golden Age Batman was gay (which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean that today's modern Batman is).

[Bud 'n Lou]

Originally posted by calhoun07
Dude, I am not saying Batman is gay, but dude, gay men DO marry and have kids. Not all, but there are gay men trying to obscure their lifestyles by making them appear "normal."

Lol. And others might do it cause they actually want to have kids.
A lot of you seem to know quite a bit about how gay men dress/behave/etc. So I was just wondering how many of you actually knew any gay men in real life? I'm honestly curious.

[Calhoun07]

I only know of one for sure who was going to get married to some girl then told her his secret before the wedding so it never took place. And, yes, there were certain stereotypical mannerisms he had that made me wonder before I knew of that confirmation. And I suspect I have met others, but it's just not something I ask people about.

[killercroc]

I know a few. They are all very nice people. I'm even related to one of them. I know for a fact that they are gay, but also they fit into the stereotypes pretty nicely.

One of these guys I've known since before he realized he was gay. He's a good friend of my sister. Anyway, when I first met him he acted like a straight man. Talked normal, had a lousy job, etc. Over the years, though, I swear he has developed a lisp. Also, he has become a successful Real Estate Agent, and owns an antique store.

My point is, I wonder if some gay people start fitting into those stereotypes because they feel like that's what's expected of them. Or do they do it to let other gay people know they are so they can ask them out or what?

I truly am an outsider, so I don't know if this happens a lot or if my reasons are right. Please don't take offense.

This guy that's a friend of my sister's has been the most constant male presence in my nephews life other than me and my dad. I don't worry about him "turning him gay" or anything like that. I know he genuinely cares about the boy, and would never do anything to hurt him. My feelings are that I'm glad he is so nice to my nephew. I feel like he will be a better person for knowing this gay man.

On the the other hand, I know one gay man that you would never suspect. He's a big, burly truck driver dude. Calls himself a "Bear."

[killercroc]

BTW- Don't really care if Batman and Robin are gay or not. But what about the Ambiguously Gay Dou? Are they gay, or not? I've gotta know!

[Nightflower]

I know a few, but they're all different. Some of them fit the stereotype, but some of them don't. I guess that's just the same with....uh....normal people!

[Karkull]

I know a few as well, and they fit the stereotypes in certain ways while being radically different in others.

The guy calls himself a "bear," killercroc? There's a pornographic magazine, called "Bear," that my friend reads. It's like Playgirl, but it's geared towards gay men. Connection?

[optimal321]

I know one gay guy who is open about it. People used to make fun of him about it for a long time before he came out. But it never really bothered me, so i didn't care. It was kinda like i already knew it, and his coming out just confirmed it.

[Bud 'n Lou]

Originally posted by Karkull
I know a few as well, and they fit the stereotypes in certain ways while being radically different in others.

The guy calls himself a "bear," killercroc? There's a pornographic magazine, called "Bear," that my friend reads. It's like Playgirl, but it's geared towards gay men. Connection?


The term "bear," is common in gay circles. It refers to a big, hairy man. :0)

[Karkull]

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou
The term "bear," is common in gay circles. It refers to a big, hairy man. :0)

Bingo!

[killercroc]

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou



The term "bear," is common in gay circles. It refers to a big, hairy man. :0)
I had heard it meant a gay truck driver. But this guy is hairy, also. That makes a lot more sense.

[The Mad Hatter]

I know a gay man who tries really, really hard to fit into the stereotypes... and another who makes fun of him for that. So it takes all types.

[Bobby Boy 101]

I know one at my school, and you would think he was gay the second you saw him, with the whole lisp thing, and the wrist thing, and the walk thing, and he only hangs out w/ girls, and the way he dresses and his grades, yadda yadda yadda, , , , ,


but its weird b/c he rally loves Sarah Michelle Gellar and Britney Spears ( I can relate) so, I guess u just never know

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Bobby Boy 1
I know one at my school, and you would think he was gay the second you saw him, with the whole lisp thing, and the wrist thing, and the walk thing, and he only hangs out w/ girls, and the way he dresses and his grades, yadda yadda yadda, , , , ,


but its weird b/c he rally loves Sarah Michelle Gellar and Britney Spears ( I can relate) so, I guess u just never know
That doesn't mean much, tho. Gay men can adore female celebrities. There is this gay guy that used to work at the other video store across town that would just go nuts for anything Britney Spears, but you'd never catch him with a girl.

[Bobby Boy 101]

hmmmmm...thats odd. .

[DR. BELCH]

Bobby Boy 1:
I know [a gay guy] at my school...he really loves Sarah Michelle Gellar and Britney Spears ( I can relate) so, I guess u just never know
I suppose it isn't a feeling of lust towards the female singers, or wanting to possess them, but rather a desire to be them. Some men emulate sports heroes, after all.... :rolleyes:

BTW, is "bear" a term for just a hairy gay man, or does it apply to any man w/ a lot of body hair? Because I'm a straight arrow, and--[lifts shirt to show gorillalike body]

And where does Michael Jackson come in on this? Any man who looks that much like Liz Taylor on crack has to be...decidedly suspect. :o

[Bud 'n Lou]

I don't know about other people, but I'm a huge fan of Shirley Manson, (see avatar) and it's not because I want to "be" her. I admire her a lot. She seems very cool, and has a strong personality. And I like how frank she is about sex in interviews. She's hilarious.
I'm not really an authority on the subject, but I assume if you, as a straight man, really want to call yourself a "bear," there's no reason not to...

[BWDK]

Did anybody say male Britney Spears fans are gay? :D I'm a huge fan of her, but not because I wanna be like her, I like her music and damn I like her looks :eek:

As for Batman, I think he's asexual, meaning he's neither attracted to men nor women, he has other priorities than his sex life. On the other hand I think he slept with Talia at least once.

[Karkull]

Originally posted by BWDK
As for Batman, I think he's asexual, meaning he's neither attracted to men nor women, he has other priorities than his sex life. On the other hand I think he slept with Talia at least once.

Many of the writer's have said so much in interviews. He does get some action (Talia & Andrea Beaumont in some stories) but only rarely.

[BWDK]

In MOTP he nailed Andrea for sure :D maybe he lost his virginity then :D

[Bobby Boy 101]

lol, me and my friend were watchin MOTP, and he had never seen it, and when it showed Bruce and Andrea the morning after they 'did stuff' he was like "Batman had sex with a girl who kills people! Cool!"

I love britney too, and her new album is pretty good, if ur into that
I also got britney the videos on DVD, god she is so hot

[G. Wen]

During the Golden Age Era of superheros, there was this trend where the superheros were depicted as very hokey, or gay by today's standards. So no, I do not think that Batman and Robin are gay.

[Beyond Batman]

It's funny how this topic swerved in and out of topic, but it seems to be going back on-track.

It's clear, today, that Bruce and Dick are very far from homosexual compared to the golden age era. This description is now of the current Batman we see today:

Being a ladiesman, playboy, player is the image Bruce wants to portray. In the public eye, Bruce is seen as the boy billionaire, with nothing better to do with his time than run off with eligible debutants and make ribbon-cutting public appearances. I'm sure Bruce has had plenty of "action." On the other hand, it's also an act. An act to divert his altered ego. Yet, Talia, Selina, etc. and the few love interests Bruce has had, I think, were real and quite genuine.

BWDK makes an interesting point, that Batman is asexual. That's a pretty good plan for attracting diverese fans, both straight or gay. However, as seen today, Bruce Wayne's masculinity, mannerism, and attitude highly suggests he's very much heterosexual.

[The Green Hornet]

i think its important to remember the evidence that people use to claim harley + ivy are bi/lesbians-- the pictures that the creator of the animated universe drew. these pictures were drawn to "tease" us-- only Timm knows the truth-- although he certainly suggests something is there by drawing them with the bed.

in the case of bruce and his chum dick, have we seen any original art depicting them in the same bed or in an embrace even remotely close to how Timm has drawn Harley and Ivy?

what we have to go on is inferences from comics drawn in the 60's-- and certainly nothing as glaringly obvious/teasing as the pictures that Timm has so kindly provided us with

in the end heres my call:

harley/ivy in the ANIMATED universe-- 50-50 chance that they are either bi or lesbian-- Timm might be laughing at these posts as we speak knowing he sure got us good with his art-- btw the pics of Kara/Supergirl are GREAT!

Bruce/Dick -- slim chance of them being gay but hey you never QUITE know what the TRUE intentions of a writer/artist are

these are just my opinions so take em as you want.

[Beyond Batman]

Just to be sure, let me make sure we're on the same page here. We're speaking of the golden age Batman and Robin. Now that I've addressed that, let me share with you an article I found:

Is Batman Gay?
By Alan Donald

"Now, there's a title. Is your dander up now? Is the blood rushing to your face and are your fists clenching with rage? Are you shouting "NO! NO! NO!" at the screen? Are you already composing an email reply to state that even considering this subject is deterimental to the mythos?

All I ask is that you stop. Just stop for a moment, take a breath, disengage your homophobic-kneejerk-reactionary hind brain and give me your homo sapien intellectual fore brain. Calm now? Right then, I'll begin.

I don't blame you for your reaction. I myself have reacted similarly in the past, but I've really forced myself to examine why I felt that way, and, frankly, I don't like the answer I get. I don't consider myself to be homophobic and, in fact, many gay people have spoken out against Batman being gay too. My overall conclusion is that we are, unfortunately, living in a homophobic society, and that our immediate reflexive reactions are governed by that. A cop out? Possibly, but still worrying all the same.

So, is Batman gay? The question we first really have to address is which Batman we are talking about. Ironically, the post-Wertham Batman of the sixties (a character gradually recreated in the wake of homophobic hysteria) is far more overtly homosexual than the man who was accused of perverting a nation's youth. The Batman of this period was sensitive, emotional, and terrified of getting into a relationship with girls. Similarly, Robin too would (whilst Batman fended off the ever-so-sexy Batwoman's advances) try to avoid the sexual lure of Batgirl. Then, of course, we had the pink costume and the TV series..."

You don't need a picture painted for you to understand what may be going on. In Harley and Ivy's case, it's seen but not talked about. In the golden age Batman and Robin's case, it's talked/written about but not seen.

In Ivy and Harley's case, pictured art presents why we think they may be potential lesbians. In Batman and Robin's case, the homosexual behavior was drawn from character interaction and characteristic features which were more subtly written than drawn.

Just some food for thought... There's a famous picture of Batman and Robin kissing that has circulated its way to eBay and many credible websites. I don't know much about its origins, but I've seen the same picture over-and-over whenever the topic about Batman and homosexuality arises. I don't know about you, but I don't think I've seen any pictures, drawn by any artists showing Ivy and Harley kissing in such the manner this picture was drawn, with the exception of personal amateur art of course. This picture was published and mass-produced on posters, buttons, shirts, etc. Bruce Timm may have some scantaly clad pictures of Ivy and Harley intimately embracing each other, but those are only suggested drawings. This picture of Batman and Robin kissing is very dirct and in-your-face. It's a picture of Batman and Robin embracing each other, kissing each other very passionately. I don't think I should post the picture here. There is no nudity involved but some may find it highly offensive.

[The Green Hornet]

who made this alleged picture?

some fan or the creator of the golden age batman?

[Beyond Batman]

I'd assume it was amateur art that just got recognized and published. I doubt it was an official DC artist from that time. Who knows? However, it's art that's been reproduced and circulated. Seeing this picture shows how people (a responsible, mature audience of course) recognize the idea Batman and Robin were potentially gay. The Golden Age Batman and Robin being gay seems to be more of a running joke to Batfans, non-Batfans, or even just a general audience. Meaning, it's more recognizable to joke around about Batman and Robin being gay rather than Ivy and Harley being bi-sexual.

[BWDK]

Originally posted by Bobby Boy 1
lol, me and my friend were watchin MOTP, and he had never seen it, and when it showed Bruce and Andrea the morning after they 'did stuff' he was like "Batman had sex with a girl who kills people! Cool!"

I love britney too, and her new album is pretty good, if ur into that
I also got britney the videos on DVD, god she is so hot

Yeah! I'm finally not the only one here who's obsessed with Britney! And her new album really rocks :D

[Karkull]

Originally posted by Beyond Batman
I don't know about you, but I don't think I've seen any pictures, drawn by any artists showing Ivy and Harley kissing in such the manner this picture was drawn, with the exception of personal amateur art of course.

If you hunt around the internet you'll find plenty (all amateur art, of course). As for the Batman & Robin kissing, that's probably amateur art as well.

Can you supply the link for that picture?

[James]

Bruce strikes me more of the type to be a closet homosexual. Sexuality can be repressed by many methods and an obsessive vigilante with little time to consider sex or his sexual nature seems to fit the bill.

I'd never imagine the two together though. Doesn't ring true. If Bats was gay in the way I describe above he certainly wouldn't admit it to himself or in a relationship with his partner. Dick never struck me as the gay type - I don't know why... :D I certainly couldn't see Bruce with Dick or any Robin - I think the thought would repulse Bruce even if he was gay. The implication that subconsciously he brought a boy into his dark world through sexual attraction... no that doesn't fit the character at all...!

[Maxie Zeus]

Think about that question: Are Batman and Batgirl heterosexuals?

Well, if they follow the pattern of the majority of men and women, then chances say that they are.

Does anyone become angry and upset at the idea that they might be lovers? Probably no one turns violent, but more than a few people (remembering revelations in "Batman Beyond") think such a relationship would be a deep and important mistake.

Does anyone think that Batman does what he does because he wants to seduce and dominate and possess Batgirl, or think that Batgirl wants to seduce and be possessed and dominated by Batman? No, and the very suggestion is improper and a slur upon their characters.

The conclusion, I think, is that their sexual preferences have absolutely nothing to do with their relationship, either as partners or as crimefighters. And to suggest that it does is to serious diminish and impugn them.

Now, ask the same questions about Batman and Robin, and I think you'll get very similar answers.

Does anyone think that Batman and Robin are playing out games of sexual seduction and domination, however sublimated, does anyone become angry and upset at the idea?

Yes they do, and Alan Donald is right to some extent in chalking up that reaction to "homophobia." But I don't think that is all of it. Because then those dislike the revelations in "Batman Beyond" would have to stand accused of "heterophobia," a rather more bizarre charge. No, I think that people dislike the Batman-Robin intimations for the same reason they dislike the Batman-Batgirl intimations, and homophobia only explains the intensity of the reaction.

If you think that Batman is a slave to his sexual passions, then if you think he's straight you must think he's driven to distraction by Babs' breasts. But he's not, because he knows that sex has nothing to do with his Batman persona and is completely able to control those emotions. And anyone who thinks that Batman is straight must implicitly believe this. So why is it so hard to think that a gay Batman could ignore Dick?

In reacting so violently against Batman's possible homosexuality, I think most people are just assuming that a homosexual man (even one as disciplined as Bruce Wayne) is at the mercy of his lusts, and so think that his homosexuality must and will dominate his night life. And it isn't true.

Ask Batman if he is gay. I think he would answer, in all honesty and with the contempt the question deserves, "It doesn't matter."

[The Mad Hatter]

Maxie brings up a great point. Getting into a relationship with someone he "works" with, male or female, would only serve as a distraction from his war on crime. While Batman has been tempted before by Catwoman and Talia, these women were outsiders. With someone he actively fights crime with, he'd likely be too focused on his mission to get involved with them... in fact, he's so deadly serious about it he probably wouldn't get into a relationship with anyone. While Bruce getting together with Babs seemed a little implausable, its ending was almost inevitable, considering his character... he was simply too focused on his work.

[Calhoun07]

I don't know if this shows they are gay or not, but it certainly goes to support my plot idea for the CHASING BARBARA movie. Dick is one confused dude.

http://216.150.214.165/istore/images/fullsize/07206180254.122.GIF

[Calhoun07]

Ok, two more for ya...

This one reinforces the idea that Batman and Robin have this CHASING AMY type thing going on...http://216.150.214.165/istore/images/fullsize/07206180254.181.GIF

And here...is that Batman copping a feel from Robin????http://216.150.214.165/istore/images/fullsize/07206180254.127.GIF

[Karkull]

I could see the Batman and Batgirl romance happening, but nothing good would come of it (as we've seen) as office romances usually become a mess.