Non-Spoiler Talkback for the JLU series finale (Alive and Destroyer)

[DerekPowers]

Hey all. I know there was a thread a week or so ago exactly like this, BUT i cant find it anywhere! hmmm....if it still exists, a mod can merge this one with it, but i couldnt find it...

anyway, can those who were fortunate enough to see the finale already, can you give us all some spoiler free reviews.

Like, did it end the series/universe well? Was it written like the finale of season 2 was, where it was obvious it was meant to end the series?

Was it good? was there resolution given to all the various plots points they started?

Is it BETTER than last season's finale??

I personally cant wait, and i want to get even more excited over it by hearing you all talk about how great it was!!! But, if it wasnt great, i'd like to hear that too.

thanks. peace.

[Arkangel]

There is definitely a very cute bit at the very end of "Destroyer" which is a nod to the series wrapping up.

Personally, however, I find "Alive!" to be a more interesting episode than "Destroyer" which for me failed due to a deus ex machina ending (I actually found "Alive!" to be one of the coolest and most original episodes I've ever seen on a mainstream American superhero show).

Nice fight scenes in both of the final episodes though.

[BlueRocketBoy]

I'm in the US and haven't seen the finale, but I did (unfortunately) peruse the JLU bios section of the "World's Finest" Web site the other day and accidentally came across screen shots of characters from what was very obviously the remaining episodes. I assumed, like the episode guides, the bios would be updated (with images) only after the US airings. [sigh]

So ... I'm excited about what's to come, but I'm bummed that I'm no longer spoiler-free.

[DerekPowers]

Personally, however, I find "Alive!" to be a more interesting episode than "Destroyer" which for me failed due to a deus ex machina ending
So, what does deus ex machina mean? are you trying to say you found the ending formulaic or something?

anyway, i am really excited about this. I know i can be a critic at times, but believe me, i love the dcau and really really cant wait. the titles alone, imo, are cool as hell. and so far, every week my excitement level hasnt dipped at all, even compared to last season. Its just such a pleasure every week, i really have to say.

And BlueRocketBoy, i too came across a spoiler while browsing some of the JLU stuff here at WF. Im not too bummed though, since the spoiler i came across i had sort of been anticipating.

anyway, its great to hear that it does work like a "series finale" and not just a season finale. so, anyone else have anything to say? its so sad that this is the end, but imo, i think a JLU movie is long overdue, and not all that unlikely. peace.

[Arkangel]

So, what does deus ex machina mean? are you trying to say you found the ending formulaic or something?
Well this is the spoiler-free thread so I didn't want to be specific, but yes, the ending is contrived and comes out of nowhere.

[DisneyBoy]

Given my tastes, do y'all think I'll get a kick out of it, without being specific?

[Revelator]

Given my tastes, do y'all think I'll get a kick out of it, without being specific?

No.

[DisneyBoy]

:rolleyes: Let me guess...because I never like anything that bt and his crew do...right?

...Seriously, don't say "no" unless you think it's so terrible that I'd hate it. Others seem to be enjoying it...so it's possible I could too.

[Arkangel]

:rolleyes: Let me guess...because I never like anything that bt and his crew do...right?

...Seriously, don't say "no" unless you think it's so terrible that I'd hate it. Others seem to be enjoying it...so it's possible I could too.
I would have said "no" as well, since you've been so vocal lately about how much you dislike action-oriented episodes with little character development. Well, that's what this is. Great action and great fights and violence out the yazoo. If you do enjoy it I will be happy for you, but I would also be shocked.

[Stu]

I too would've replied with 'no'. No need for the :rolleyes: emoticon here, Disneyboy.

Given the episodes you seem to be very vocal in with your dislike of them, I'd probably rank them the finale in those. The fact you also bizarrly believe that the JLU finale should be the wedding of Superman and Lois Lane also means that well, you're not getting the finale you want.

I'd wager that the majority of other posters would find it to be at least 'good', if not 'great'.

[psifreek28]

Destroyer was fantastic...as was Alive.

Great concept for Alive.

And to be honest JLU has never been about deep character development...while we get some here and there, it's always been about the kickass fights, the cool superhero team ups and the way they all connect. Im not trying to say i dont like thought provoking eps, or character development...but sometimes fun to be had is still just plain FUN!

Loved the ending to Destroyer...while it did leave me slightly lost, i remember that no one is ever truly lost in the DCAU. Maybe one day we will hear more of it.

Sad to see it go...but that ending just makes me remember "keep on fighting"

[Arkangel]

I rate "Alive!" as great, hands down. Easily in my top two favorite episodes of the season.

I rate "Destroyer" as very good, taking off points for the contrived ending.


Great concept for Alive.
Oh yes it was! :)

[PeterFries]

Loved the finale eps; even though I agree that Alive! was the stronger episode of the two it's mostly because I just didn't want Destroyer to end.

[The Avenger]

I too would've replied with 'no'. No need for the :rolleyes: emoticon here, Disneyboy.

Given the episodes you seem to be very vocal in with your dislike of them, I'd probably rank them the finale in those. The fact you also bizarrly believe that the JLU finale should be the wedding of Superman and Lois Lane also means that well, you're not getting the finale you want.

I'd wager that the majority of other posters would find it to be at least 'good', if not 'great'.

it never ceases to amaze me how one could want so much from a cartoon aimed at kids and teenagers. You've been watching the wrong show if you wanted less action and more character plots. be happy timm's found a damn good balance, because no kids cartoon today can appeal to all ages like JLU.

Also, i dont know why you rolled your eyes. Accept the fact that you constant complaining has...well, made you the poster who complains alot.

[Revelator]

:rolleyes: Let me guess...because I never like anything that bt and his crew do...right?

No, it's because you haven't liked anything they've done lately and because you're squeamish about violence and have very specific ideas about character development, and the finale won't mollify you on either of those counts.


...Seriously, don't say "no" unless you think it's so terrible that I'd hate it. Others seem to be enjoying it...so it's possible I could too.

No, it's not. We all know your opinions, which have been liberally distributed on this board in the most dramatic manner, and based on those many here can predict which attributes you desire and which you don't. I don't think the finale is terrible at all--I think it's kick-ass--but based on my aquaintance with your opinions, I seriously doubt you'd like it. If you do, I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong, since ideally I'd liked everyone to be pleased. But at this point I could bet money on your reaction.

Because you have the chutzpah to post lengthy, personal, dramatic, and unfavorable opinions here, you often get dogpiled on, and I too have often felt tempted to lay on the snark. Sometimes I've thought that the only reason you watch the show is due to a highly ingrained masochistic reflex. But you are a fan who cares, and those are liable to take things the most personally (witness the normally mild-mannered Merlin Missy's confrontation with McDuffie on his board), and at times I've also shared aspects of your opinion.

I answered simply "no" because I don't wish to discuss any more of the finale with someone who hasn't seen it, not because I felt snarky. Thanks to your frequent posts we all know you very well, and we can make confident guesses about your tastes. You may enjoy some aspects of the finale, but I doubt you will be more pleased than displeased.

[Chris Wood]

Gotta like the nod to the Superfriends at the end there.

[DerekPowers]

Gotta like the nod to the Superfriends at the end there.
Oh geez, dude, thats a spoiler, imo. Can a mod put that in a box, or Desslar, if you could. I know its a fine line, but i think thats more spoiler than not.

Anyway, interesting comments. I'll have to wait and judge for myself.

As far as action vs. character development...i dont think the two are mutually exclusive. Sometimes the way a fight is staged, decisions that are made, and high drama that can come with a really intense, kickass fight, can define or develop a character as much as a good intense story. I personally think "Dark Heart" was a great character episode for the big 3.

Plus, if Alive is more character, and Destroyer more action, then it sounds like it could balance eachother out. As long as it has a good ending, I wouldnt necessarily mind a lot of action. Like, i just watched Two-Face parts 1 & 2 recently, two of my favorite btas eps, and pt one is very story driven, while 2 has much more action. But it works really well like that, so. Plus, Divided we Fall was mostly action, but had a great ending (the rally then the daily planet), and the action was all really cool, with lots of cool character stuff IN the action (the fight w/ the JLords, for example). so a lot of action can be good, imo.

Disneyboy, did you like the finale last season? whats your feelings on this season so far? interesting that so many feel you wont like it. I'd be worried....

Seriously though, i just have a good feeling about it. and i felt this way last season, and i thought last season was absolutely brilliant. Sure, i've complained about parts of the finale, but those were always just nit-picks, hang-ups and little things. overall i always thought the cadmus finale was super, and whenever i complained about it, i'd always preface it with that, or tried to anyway.

So I think i'll like it :D and i really cant wait. The suspense is killing me, but i kind of enjoy it in a way.

peace.

[Azrael24]

So, what does deus ex machina mean?
i havent seen the episode since i live in the US and i want to keep mmyself spoiler-free, but i know that "deus ex machine" means "god in machine", which is a term that i learned in English class

[FunTurtle]

The whole out of nowhere ending...for example, imagine if they never had an episode that introduced Amazo before...and in the end fight in Destroyer Amazo came out of nowhere and beat the bad guy, then flew off unexplained. It's kinda like that. (But it's still good.)

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I liked it. As others pointed out, it's not very thick in plot, but the action sequences are pretty impressive. About the ending: I don't think it's out of nowhere. I half-expected it. I think it's a bit nebulous, and a little dissatisfying, but I won't use the dreaded deus ex machina description, at least not more than I would say about the ending of "Divided We Fall."

Okay, now to compare it to "Divided We Fall." Or are we comparing it to "Epilogue"? Well, I'll compare it to both. DWF was better, because I'm a plot first/action second kind of guy. DWF's plot twist was incredible. "Destroyer" was better than "Epilogue," though. "Destroyer" didn't rewrite a large segment of the DCAU universe (for the worse). Also, while old maid Waller's opinions might've been just that, her opinions, some of the remarks about Batman were over the top, so that was a bit off-putting. No such thing in "Destroyer."

[DerekPowers]

The whole out of nowhere ending...for example, imagine if they never had an episode that introduced Amazo before...and in the end fight in Destroyer Amazo came out of nowhere and beat the bad guy, then flew off unexplained. It's kinda like that. (But it's still good.)
thanks FunTurtle, but, things like this are boarder line spoiler, imo. i wish everyone would refrain from getting too descriptive, and simply express your opinions on the finale and perhaps compare it to past finales. this really is getting close to a spoiler, imo.

i think i got what i wanted out of this thread. i just wanted to know the overall opinion. but since there have been a few posts that really reveal alittle too much for my liking, i'm gonna not look at this thread anymore. feel free to keep the discusson going though, but just tread that spoiler line really really carefully. i'd hate for anyone to look at this thread and wind up getting a spoiler from it.

thanks for the info and opinions everyone. peace.

[DisneyBoy]

The fact you also bizarrly believe that the JLU finale should be the wedding of Superman and Lois Lane also means that well, you're not getting the finale you want.

There's nothing bizarre about me or my opinions. That was just totally uncalled for, given there are several other people here on the boards who just happen to also have the same, crazy, bizarro, completely incomprehensible idea that maybe, just maybe...Lois and Clark could get married on JLU without the entire DCAU falling to pieces. I wasn't expecting it to happen in "Destroyer" anyways...so why even bring it up, other than to take a pot-shot at me?

We all know your opinions, which have been liberally distributed on this board in the most dramatic manner...

Wow. I ask if Superman has become a violent nutcase, and suddenly I'm reduced to a one-dimensional "drama queen"...

...and now I'm being made fun of because I post frequently..!?! "Liberally distributed"? What does that mean? I'm not out to change anyone's opinions...and I'm not some loud-mouthed arrogant person with a megaphone, despite how quickly I've suddenly become one in the eyes of many, after years of visiting these boards and never having a problem. Perspective people, perspective. I had an issue with who violent Superman was. That doesn't make me a nutcase, or my posts any less valid.

Because you have the chutzpah to post lengthy, personal, dramatic, and unfavorable opinions here, you often get dogpiled on, and I too have often felt tempted to lay on the snark. Sometimes I've thought that the only reason you watch the show is due to a highly ingrained masochistic reflex. But you are a fan who cares, and those are liable to take things the most personally (witness the normally mild-mannered Merlin Missy's confrontation with McDuffie on his board), and at times I've also shared aspects of your opinion.

I'd say "poorly recieved" instead of "unfavorable", but otherwise I see and agree with what you're saying here. I'm looking forward to people getting off the "dogpile" I am currently buried under. I totally missed what happened with Merly Missy (or totally forgot about it) though. What was the story...?

I answered simply "no" because I don't wish to discuss any more of the finale with someone who hasn't seen it, not because I felt snarky. Thanks to your frequent posts we all know you very well, and we can make confident guesses about your tastes. You may enjoy some aspects of the finale, but I doubt you will be more pleased than displeased.

Sorry I assumed you were being snarky. To be perfectly honest, I'm pretty worn down from all the attacks I've been recieving here. The snarkiness is uncalled for, and yet it continues on, and likely will. I didn't hurt anybody, I didn't attack anybody and yet here I am being publically stoned. I'm not some small-minded idiot and I'm frankly sick of coming here and seeing myself grilled by people who don't have the faintest clue who I really am (b.t. included). Anyone who judges someone's character based on one post at an online message forum is pretty darn presumptuous. I always took these boards, and my posts, very seriously, and certainly never judged anyone else for having opinions that differed from mine. Anyone who now wishes to make fun of me for not liking something or for posting here regularly needs to take a good long look in the mirror and think. We're here to share ideas...if I'm saying that some aspects of JLU keep the show from being as tight as what's come before it, it's because I've put a lot of time into forming that opinion. Honestly people...where's the level of maturity and respect that used to make Toonzone such a healthy environment?

Anyways, I appreciate your honesty, Revelator. I won't go in expecting something brilliant or of "Starcrossed" -level quality. After all, this season is supposed to be fluffy, action-filled fun. I'm sure I'll be entertained.

[FunTurtle]

My previous comment doesn't exactly mirror what happens...I'm just saying it has a vibe to it where you're like "well...that was random/came out of nowhere". You are still unspoiled.

[DerekPowers]

My previous comment doesn't exactly mirror what happens...I'm just saying it has a vibe to it where you're like "well...that was random/came out of nowhere". You are still unspoiled.
okay, good. :)

anyway, i know i said i wasnt going to check this thread anymore, but oh well, i'm bored...

Disneyboy, dont let others get you so upset. Believe me, i know exactly how you feel. Just dont even respond when people find the need to take shots at you. I too have been finding things a little unpleasent here lately, so i'm just trying to resist the urge to engage in that kind of posting, and am trying to post a little less frequently. Just say your thing and move on, and if people want to be petty and bicker over it, let them.

peace.

[Captain Clown]

I'll agree that "Alive!" is one of the very best JLU episodes yet.

"Destroyer" is a good finale and a perfectly suitable way to end the DCAU but it drives me nuts wanting to know what happens afterward, in a way Divided We Fall didn't.

[OmegaPaladin]

Alive! is a pretty impressive episode. Lots of good performances by the villains, and some really chaotic fights. If anyone needs a reminder as to how evil Lex Luthor is, this episode will satisfy.

Destroyer has the most intense action in JLU, with few exceptions. Lots of heroes and villains make appearances. Superman and Batman show some impressive heroics, and Superman has a cool speech. The resolution of the threat is not unanticipated, but REALLY leaves you hanging. The actual ending is awesome. Wonder Woman has the last line, btw.

[DerekPowers]

Wonder Woman has the last line, btw.
why add that? imo thats a spoiler, because its just way too specific.

But the rest of your post was good, its kind of what i wanted to hear, especially about the Bat!

Anyway, heres a question: Did the creative team write Alive/Destroyer with the assumption that it would end the series/timmverse, the way they did with Divided We Fall and Epilogue? or did they think there was a chance there'd be a 4th season?

When you watch DWF and Epilogue, they FEEL like series finales; episodes to end the series and to end the universe.

Does Alive and Destroyer feel the same way? I know some have commented on this already, but i'd like to hear more, WITH NO SPOILERS WHATSOEVER, and i'd also like to know if the creative team inteneded it to end the universe the way they obviously intended DWF and Epilogue to. any quotes or links to posts or interviews where Bruce Timm or anyone else comments on this would be great. thanks. peace.

ps...NO SPOILERS. even things like the WW line at the end, that might not seem like a full on spoiler, its too close, imo. Just give opinions and stuff like that, please refrain from pointing out anything specific in the episodes. thanks a bunch. peace.

[Arkangel]

why add that? imo thats a spoiler, because its just way too specific.

But the rest of your post was good, its kind of what i wanted to hear, especially about the Bat!

Anyway, heres a question: Did the creative team write Alive/Destroyer with the assumption that it would end the series/timmverse, the way they did with Divided We Fall and Epilogue? or did they think there was a chance there'd be a 4th season?

When you watch DWF and Epilogue, they FEEL like series finales; episodes to end the series and to end the universe.

Does Alive and Destroyer feel the same way? I know some have commented on this already, but i'd like to hear more, WITH NO SPOILERS WHATSOEVER, and i'd also like to know if the creative team inteneded it to end the universe the way they obviously intended DWF and Epilogue to. any quotes or links to posts or interviews where Bruce Timm or anyone else comments on this would be great. thanks. peace.

ps...NO SPOILERS. even things like the WW line at the end, that might not seem like a full on spoiler, its too close, imo. Just give opinions and stuff like that, please refrain from pointing out anything specific in the episodes. thanks a bunch. peace.
There is no doubt "Destroyer" is written as the series finale.

[Arrakhat]

i havent seen the episode since i live in the US and i want to keep mmyself spoiler-free, but i know that "deus ex machine" means "god in machine", which is a term that i learned in English class

Quite literally, it means "god out of the machine." It's Latin, but used in the world of cartoons, it's usually just a fancy way of saying "cop out." Good Lord, I can't wait for the season to get to the finale. And at the same time I want it to continue forever. CN's just not fair.

[Stu]

The fact you also bizarrly believe that the JLU finale should be the wedding of Superman and Lois Lane also means that well, you're not getting the finale you want.

There's nothing bizarre about me or my opinions. That was just totally uncalled for, given there are several other people here on the boards who just happen to also have the same, crazy, bizarro, completely incomprehensible idea that maybe, just maybe...Lois and Clark could get married on JLU without the entire DCAU falling to pieces. I wasn't expecting it to happen in "Destroyer" anyways...so why even bring it up, other than to take a pot-shot at me?

We all know your opinions, which have been liberally distributed on this board in the most dramatic manner...

Wow. I ask if Superman has become a violent nutcase, and suddenly I'm reduced to a one-dimensional "drama queen"...

...and now I'm being made fun of because I post frequently..!?! "Liberally distributed"? What does that mean? I'm not out to change anyone's opinions...and I'm not some loud-mouthed arrogant person with a megaphone, despite how quickly I've suddenly become one in the eyes of many, after years of visiting these boards and never having a problem. Perspective people, perspective. I had an issue with who violent Superman was. That doesn't make me a nutcase, or my posts any less valid.

Who called you a nutcase? We've just noticed that you've gone on these rants more than once in recent times, and some posters are getting annoyed with them. Your rants can get borderline flamebait, as do thier reponses. It's a catch 22 situation... if you want them to stop, you're going to have to change as well as those who respond. No one's an innocent party here.


I'd say "poorly recieved" instead of "unfavorable", but otherwise I see and agree with what you're saying here. I'm looking forward to people getting off the "dogpile" I am currently buried under.
Again, that's going to have to work both ways. When people go too far, they get warned, but we can't fight your every battle for you.


Anyone who judges someone's character based on one post at an online message forum is pretty darn presumptuous. I always took these boards, and my posts, very seriously, and certainly never judged anyone else for having opinions that differed from mine. Anyone who now wishes to make fun of me for not liking something or for posting here regularly needs to take a good long look in the mirror and think. We're here to share ideas...if I'm saying that some aspects of JLU keep the show from being as tight as what's come before it, it's because I've put a lot of time into forming that opinion. Honestly people...where's the level of maturity and respect that used to make Toonzone such a healthy environment?

Ah, a solution to the problem. This is a message board, and here you are your posts. Offline you can deliever can goods to your church every Sunday, be kind to animals and even offer to teach people to play jazz flute for free, but none of that counts here. We only know what you make yourself out to be here, and you can't expect anyone to think of you as anything other than the part of you that hits "Sumbit Reply" along with the rest of us. We've no other way to speak with you.

Before you start slandering all those around you who disagree with you and your opinions, you might want to look at how you present yourself to us in the future. We'll all be happier. :)

[DerekPowers]

There is no doubt "Destroyer" is written as the series finale.
:D:D :D I CANT WAIT!!!:eek:

[Teo]

I very much agree that Deus Ex Machina is a little harsh of a statement. The way it goes down is a little sudden and ambiguous, but that's more because there wasn't an extra 22 minutes to flesh it out (I'd have loved the 2-parter becoming a 3-parter). It's an ending that is coherent with the story and the characters. It's a little out of nowhere but it's consistent with the story.

I loved this finale and it's the perfect finisher to what was the most fun season of JL and JLU. It works as a closing to the whole DCAU, but not in the way that the last season felt like a winding down. It just gives one big party for fans of the show. The only times it didn't work for me were moments when it glossed over what in JL would have been a plot point. The specific problems within the overall conflict felt like beats that were resolved too quickly and easily. It was of course necessary because of the scope being crammed into the time, however those areas felt unrewarding because there was no tension or sense of effort.

For me, the finale (Destoyer) hit 95% of the time (that number is so not scientific) and was a complement to Epilogue, which was intellectually satisfying, by being viscerally and energetically satifying.

Oh, and Alive! is awesome. Very well paced and enjoyable. To me it makes sense to be related but structually didn't feel like the episodes shared the same arc that a complete 2 episode JL story would have. I see them more as dominoes than one continuing the other's story.

I'm in the group that finds this last season wicked awesome and these last two episodes are equals to the best (well, Flash and Substance may be my fav, but they're all so good).

Thanks to everyone that worked on them, particularly Bruce Timm. He's been the one that overall has held all these shows together all these years and really has given me so much entertainment. I really do remember watching the premeire of Cat and the Claw on primetime TV and then On Leather Wings that Sunday (7pm!). It holds up amazingly well over this much time. What I love is how I see them now and I can appreciate the intricacy and intelligence of them along with the artwork and storytelling. What I also love is how they all (particularly BTAS) still have those warm memories of childhood tied to them. It's a beautiful body of work and I'm grateful for it and have enjoyed it immensely!