Talkback: Winx Club "The Heart of Cloud Tower"

[Freedom Fighter]

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/4kids2.jpghttp://fridays.toonzone.net/talkbacks/winxclub.gif

Come join the club...It's time to catch up with the latest adventure featuring those fashionable fairies, now sophomores, at Alfea. Season 2 of the Winx Club is back on track, and evil lurks just around the corner, courtesy of Lord Darkar. Now with back-to-back episodes every week!


Last Week: #141 "Magic in My Heart" Talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=159799) #143 "Exchange Students" Talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=159800)
This Week (1 of 2): #144 "The Heart of Cloud Tower"
Premieres Saturday, February 11 at 9:30 am
Summary: No summary available.
Also This Week: #142 "The Fourth Witch" Talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=160241) - Airs at 10 amJust what resides inside 'The Heart of Cloud Tower?' Tune in and find out!

[mg_winxclub]

Nice to see the witches continuing their troublesome ways and causing chaos! Though this episode was necessary for continuity, it did seem to drag on. Discorta was cute! The episode did prove a point near the end, when you don't work together, things can go wrong. When the Winx Club tried Convergence, each one had a different idea for the spell, and since there was no harmony, the spell failed knocking them all out! The witches then stole the Cloud Tower Codex!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darcy]

(Blatantly copied and tweaked a bit from my comments on LJ. I'm lazy. So what?)

I think the best part of this ep was not having to deal with the bigotry crap from last week anymore. All that was just forgotten. Not even mentioned once. Good.

This was a decent episode with some excellent moments. Bloom’s expression about Tecna’s bad pun and Stella’s ear line were my favorites, followed closely by Musa’s “candy-coated” line. More points for Bloom and Tecna, and Musa makes an improvement from her horribly witchy performance last episode. Stella flounders a bit, as she’s got plenty of moments where she acts too much like early first season Stella (the one I hated). Flora and Layla are just kinda there. Both of them need to brave up some.

I’ve got three problems with this ep. Just logical stuff really.

1) What happened to Mirta and Lucy? They’re there, they’re attacked, but they don’t reappear to do anything! Mirta shows up to go back to Alfea with the fairies, but Lucy doesn’t reappear. No cute goodbye with Mirta. That sucks.

2) Why didn’t the witches help fight the Trix? Where were Ediltrude and Zarathustra during this battle? Ms. Griffin I can understand was probably maintaining her control over the heart, but the other two could have gone out and helped fight. Bad writing. The writers just don’t like to show witches helping fight except for Griffin and occasionally Mirta. And Lucy briefly last episode, though that was more defending herself than outright battling. The witch students never help. Are we supposed to think that they’re weaker than the fairies or are the writers really that worried that if they don’t show the fairies fighting every single battle on their own, we’ll forget about them? This is one of the most unrealistic aspects of the show and it’s very unfortunate.

3) Pixie prowess. Why in the world are these all-important codex pieces guarded by little pixies? Athena and Discorda were very easily dispatched. Maybe it’s time to locate stronger guardians. They’re cute, but highly pathetic.

All in all, a decent episode. Much better than the last one, but the writers’ failings make it not one of the best. Or even one of the really good. It’s just decent.

[Hyper Shadow X]

A nice one.

[Rover_Wow]

2) Why didn’t the witches help fight the Trix? Where were Ediltrude and Zarathustra during this battle? Ms. Griffin I can understand was probably maintaining her control over the heart, but the other two could have gone out and helped fight. Bad writing. The writers just don’t like to show witches helping fight except for Griffin and occasionally Mirta. And Lucy briefly last episode, though that was more defending herself than outright battling. The witch students never help. Are we supposed to think that they’re weaker than the fairies or are the writers really that worried that if they don’t show the fairies fighting every single battle on their own, we’ll forget about them? This is one of the most unrealistic aspects of the show and it’s very unfortunate.

And this problem's been there since last season, where we're never shown the student witches helping the fairies fight (heck, 2x08 even mentions the witches' help even though we never saw it!)

Meanwhile, how convenient is it that I mention Stella and Bloom's failure in FG's convergence class (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=160245) (even though they have very similar powers) in the same week that their latest attempt at convergence proves a bust against the Trix? (Speaking of that thread, stay tuned for a few more new opinions in that thread.)

[Frank15]

Nice enough episode, if not great. My biggest question is what the heck happened to Mirta and Lucy?! We didn't see whatever Darcy did to them, and unlike Stella and Musa, they didn't appear where the other girls were collecting.

The pairings seemed odd to me... why wouldn't Musa and Layla go together? Why would Musa and Stella pair off, and Layla and Flora pair off instead? Particularly Stella and Musa... that seemed to be a somewhat volitile combination there!

Zing was fun again. Seems like she was probably grating on Flora and Layla. Could be why she's having trouble finding someone to bond with. I still think she might be able to find a witch to bond with, if such were allowed.

I really liked Tecna a lot in the episode, showing us a lot of her sides: her (false) belief that she can never be wrong, her fear, and her not really getting how to be funny.

[Freedom Fighter]

1) What happened to Mirta and Lucy? They’re there, they’re attacked, but they don’t reappear to do anything! Mirta shows up to go back to Alfea with the fairies, but Lucy doesn’t reappear. No cute goodbye with Mirta. That sucks.That's true. We didn't even see if they were okay at the end, it was just, as you said, Mirta leaves with the Winx girls and we don't see Lucy again at all. This show has a problem with covering all the bases / tying up loose ends a lot.
The pairings seemed odd to me... why wouldn't Musa and Layla go together? Why would Musa and Stella pair off, and Layla and Flora pair off instead? Particularly Stella and Musa... that seemed to be a somewhat volitile combination there!Technically, referring to "Truth or Dare," we should also be stressing the pairings of Bloom/Stella and Tecna/Flora. But in the general sense, the Musa/Layla pairing has gotten the most stress and development over the past few episodes, so it was a big surprise when they weren't together again.

Especially since it made Layla and Flora both look like scaredy cats, and, even worse, made it seem Stella and Musa (mostly Stella) had once again gone backwards on their character development scales to early Season 1. Though you could dignify the backtracking as valid given the 'discontent' spell (or whatever it was called) that Cloud Tower professor put on them last week.

Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it, though.
The episode did prove a point near the end, when you don't work together, things can go wrong. When the Winx Club tried Convergence, each one had a different idea for the spell, and since there was no harmony, the spell failed knocking them all out!You know, I didn't like how the rest of the episode set up the ending. In fact, it's hard to say I liked the idea of failed convergence either. It's a necessary evil, though. I kinda figured the Trix would succeed in getting the Codex (heck, I'll bet they'll get all four pieces before they're stopped). But I would've preferred if there was a bit more suspense. You know, something to worry about. That was the intention of the failed convergence, and the idea in theory should've worked. Just bad execution on the set-up into it... the ending result saved this episode from being truly horrendous, but that's pretty much it.

A couple of other quick notes:
1) As much as Zing is funny (and is trying to lighten the mood), her antics are out of place with Flora and Layla's emotions in this episode.
2) I kinda gave up on finding quotable lines weeks ago, but I just had to give this set of lines a mention, just because it anchors the Stella/Musa pairing... obviously the worst part of this episode -
Stella: That low-fi, inner realm, sample heavy krunk is so last decade!
Musa: Do you even know what any of those phrases mean, Stella?
Does Musa even know herself? Shoot, does anyone older than the show's demographic know, for that matter? :p And I'll also agree with Musa's statement about why they're debating Top 5s when they should be witch hunting.

You know what continues to be true with this show? The comedy-oriented episodes are among the show's best, while the action-oriented ones seem to be among the worst. It's not 4Kids fault, it's the show's original creative staff, who seems to really struggle at writing action-packed episodes that are not only cohesive, but action-packed. The fact right now that I am not looking too thrilled at the season finale in a month is not a good sign.

6.5 out of 10 for "The Heart of Cloud Tower."

[mg_winxclub]

I didn't like how the rest of the episode set up the ending. In fact, it's hard to say I liked the idea of failed convergence either. It's a necessary evil, though. I kinda figured the Trix would succeed in getting the Codex (heck, I'll bet they'll get all four pieces before they're stopped). But I would've preferred if there was a bit more suspense.

Everyone's a critic. So how would you have made it more suspenseful? What's your alternate ending? Remember, they were still under the cat-fight spell the one Cloud Tower teacher put on them. This explains Stella and Musa not getting along as well as the convergence spell not working.

[Darcy]

You know what continues to be true with this show? The comedy-oriented episodes are among the show's best, while the action-oriented ones seem to be among the worst.

Gotta disagree. I think the best episodes include "Spelled," "Witch Trap," "The Army of Decay," "The Day of the Rose," "Rescuing the Pixies," etc. and those are certainly action-based episodes, not comedy.

[Frank15]

Are there comedy-based episodes, aside from maybe The Fourth Witch and Miss Magix? Seems like most of the humor just comes from little things sprinkled into any ol' episode. Then again, possibly my favorite episode, Magic in My Heart, isn't really action-based either. Kinda' more in Meant to Be's category, whatever you call that.

[Rover_Wow]

It's not 4Kids fault, it's the show's original creative staff, who seems to really struggle at writing action-packed episodes that are not only cohesive, but action-packed.

Actually, it may be 4Kids' fault. They're known for changing around key plot points, aren't they? Look at "The Wrong Righters": They cut out Layla teaching Musa the rain dance she uses in "Magic in My Heart", and then they cut out Diaspro's grudge with Bloom. And need I remind you of 4Kids' own ending to "Magical Reality Check"?

To sum up, 4Kids eps are inferior to the original stuff. (Though I do have to give them credit for having Bloom mentioning their argument to FG about their failure in convergence class... without mentioning the argument, it wouldn't make any sense to not come up with anything when Bloom and Stella's powers, fire and sunlight, are of similar qualities.)

ETA: Something I realized... Considering Flora's role in last season's Mirta story, you'd think Mirta would have favored interacting with her during these couple of eps.

[Viper]

Before I start my comments, I need to correct myself about last week's ep: I thought/wrote it was Icy who used that "optical darkness" spell on Bloom when it was really Darcy. My mistake, everyone.:sad: Now, my comments for this intense ep:

So, it WAS Miss Griffin in there. Everyone pretty much knew that, but I had to see it for myself.

I'm glad Griffin's herbs helped make Bloom normal again.:) However, I did not like Stella's dialogue at that point:
Stella: Well, it serves you right for trying to take on the witches yourself!
Layla: You did NOT just say that!
Hmph. Real nice, Stella. NOT!:mad:

Things really started creeping me out when Cloud Tower started coming to life.:eek: At least, Griffin was able to get it under control for a little while when Stormy almost blasted Bloom & Tecna.:sweat: Although, it was only temporary.:(

Too bad the Winx girls' "convergence" magic didn't work, mainly because it needed "harmony" to take full effect, and they had none. Plus, it almost blew them all away!:sad: It seems they're really starting to distrust one another.:crying:

Finally, the real sad part of this ep is: even though pixie Discordia did all she could, THE TRIX GOT THE SECOND CODEX!!!:crying: Now, of course, they're next target is...Alfea itself!:eek: :eek: :eek:

I gotta give this ep 4 stars! Cloud Tower creeped me out just as much as it did everyone else!:eek:

Next week's ep makes me wanna literally start crying because of one thing: BLOOM TURNS EVIL!!!!:eek: :eek: :ack: :ack: :crying: :crying: :crying:

[Freedom Fighter]

Okay, a few interpretations need to be reworked, especially as I'm rewatching the episode as I type.
Everyone's a critic. So how would you have made it more suspenseful? What's your alternate ending? Remember, they were still under the cat-fight spell the one Cloud Tower teacher put on them. This explains Stella and Musa not getting along as well as the convergence spell not working.First off, let me clarify. I'm not knocking on the Winx girls failing convergence. I have nothing wrong with that happening. My predictability quote was aiming at the Trix succeeding in stealing the Codex... it was hard not seeing that happening in the end.

Most of the lead-up to the ending, though, was also questionable. What with splitting the group into four pairings diluting screen time, some characters more out-of-character than need be, and pretty much ignoring a check-up of the safety of Mirta, Lucy, or the other inhabitants of Cloud Tower.
Gotta disagree. I think the best episodes include "Spelled," "Witch Trap," "The Army of Decay," "The Day of the Rose," "Rescuing the Pixies," etc. and those are certainly action-based episodes, not comedy.Here's where I actually misinterpreted myself. It should've been more of a comparison between the varying degrees of action-centered episodes. There are certain action-packed moments over the course of the series that are disappointing, with naturally, most of them centered around Bloom and most of the last third of the first season. And the first quarter of this season, to be honest. And this two-parter (combined with last week's second episode) fell close to being among that group.

So basically, yeah, ignore that part of my statement above.
Actually, it may be 4Kids' fault. They're known for changing around key plot points, aren't they? Look at "The Wrong Righters": They cut out Layla teaching Musa the rain dance she uses in "Magic in My Heart", and then they cut out Diaspro's grudge with Bloom. And need I remind you of 4Kids' own ending to "Magical Reality Check"?

To sum up, 4Kids eps are inferior to the original stuff. (Though I do have to give them credit for having Bloom mentioning their argument to FG about their failure in convergence class... without mentioning the argument, it wouldn't make any sense to not come up with anything when Bloom and Stella's powers, fire and sunlight, are of similar qualities.)On the rewatching, I'm starting to have suspicions... but still, I stand by what I said in my original review. The storyboarding could've been done better, and the animation was even more suspect than usual in some places. Rainbow can obviously do better than this.

[mg_winxclub]

The storyboarding could've been done better, and the animation was even more suspect than usual in some places. Rainbow can obviously do better than this.

I disagree. The storyboarding was important for the continuity of the show. In the battle with Layla, Musa, witch students, Icy, Darcy, Stormy, and the statues that came to life in the Cloud Tower hang out room was awesome! So much animation going on in such a small space! Go watch it again! There's so much going on you can't see it all the first time! That's quality animation so I disagree with your comments.

[Darcy]

To sum up, 4Kids eps are inferior to the original stuff.

Does anyone else hear a broken record? Just keeps repeating the same thing over and over and over... I'm so tired of it. Makes my head hurt.

Both versions have their positive points. Though you wouldn't know because you rarely watch our version. The original is better in some parts. The 4Kids version is better in some parts. *cough*Bloomnotagod*cough* The problems of this particular ep that Freedom Fighter discusses are likely not 4Kids fault. They seem to be part of the original, too.

Run along.

[Rover_Wow]

Both versions have their positive points. Though you wouldn't know because you rarely watch our version. The original is better in some parts. The 4Kids version is better in some parts. *cough*Bloomnotagod*cough*

Yes, I get it, and I agree (for example, 4Kids makes great vocal songs for this show, esp. Musa's song from a week or so ago). But really, I don't really have that much of a prob with WC. If you ever notice carefully, I hardly ever trash the plotlines or characters themsleves. The only thing I ever trash is the way 4Kids (of One Piece infamy, remember) handles it.

(Meanwhile, I note that I am no longer welcome at the LJ community... I guess you really do have a problem with me, don't you? But I'm not trying to trash the show itself.)

ETA: Looking back at the posts I've made about Winx, sure I've made a few posts about flaws on WC (maybe too many), but that doesn't necessarily make me a Winx hater, because after all "Every series has it's ups and downs, memorable moments, and ones you don't want to remember." (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=159052) It's hard for me to talk about the positives of the show when I don't feel for them as much as the negatives. Of course, there are also those posts where I point out certain things (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=160245) without bashing them outright ("Bloom has the dragon flame, Stella has sun power, and they didn't come up with anything for convergence class? Weird").

[Jave]

(Meanwhile, I note that I am no longer welcome at the LJ community... I guess you really do have a problem with me, don't you? But I'm not trying to trash the show itself.)Stop instigating. This isn't the time OR the place for this kind of discussion. If you want to complain about getting removed from a LJ community, take it over there or to MSN or AIM. There's no need for baiting on a talkback thread.

[Freedom Fighter]

I disagree. The storyboarding was important for the continuity of the show. In the battle with Layla, Musa, witch students, Icy, Darcy, Stormy, and the statues that came to life in the Cloud Tower hang out room was awesome! So much animation going on in such a small space! Go watch it again! There's so much going on you can't see it all the first time! That's quality animation so I disagree with your comments.I've stated several times here at TZ that in all honesty, I know next to nothing about the animation process. I only catch something's off if it's really good or really bad. And it has to really stick out for me to notice. To be fair... I have no idea about how much you know about the animation process or anyway to tell if it's more or less than me, so there's no point debating that, right?

That being said, I don't mind you making arguments stating you disagree, but please, my argument only refers to this episode. Give me an example from this episode to disprove me... the one above refers to the episode before, "Exchange Students," and doesn't apply. Even in the same show, animation quality can vary from episode to episode. And though I still have that episode on tape and could go back and rewatch it, it's not the episode I'm referring to.

Here's one example for my argument for this episode... feel free to offer a counterexample, if you'd like.

Check out the third act, where the Trix chase Bloom and Tecna out of the room they were in. The animation of them coming out is really, really stiff, and so is pretty much the rest of the scene, up to the point where Miss Griffin regains control of the Tower and entraps the witches.

Granted, this isn't the worst animation I've seen in the series, but it's up there.

Meanwhile... Rover Wow, here's some friendly advice. I don't mind the fact that you're nitpicking at the 4Kids dub, you're more than welcome too. But, please do not go down the route of thinking ahead of time that every episode is automatically butchered just because 4Kids worked on. Yes, we're all familiar with what 4Kids does to their dubs, some cases more atrocious than others. But it's not right, even based on past instances in the same series, to assume that the 4Kids' version, episode for episode, will always be inferior to the original. I hate it when it's done in the 'One Piece' talkbacks to the point I almost always avoid them. Yes, OP is a horrible dub, but it turns me off when you got a dozen people screaming foul on a dub episode that is still hours from airing.

If there's proof that this-or-that is edited/cut from an episode, fine, you can present it, and we can all decide individually whether we want to look/care about it or not. But don't split hairs and say every suspicious jump in a dub episode is bad, especially in a case such as this episode, where there's been no solid proof there was a jump. I know I've blamed 4Kids about this series sometimes, substatianted or not. But give 4Kids the benefit of the doubt, and let it rest already, man.

So basically... proof of editing = let's yack about it. No proof = don't yack.

[Darcy]

(Meanwhile, I note that I am no longer welcome at the LJ community... I guess you really do have a problem with me, don't you? But I'm not trying to trash the show itself.)

Jave is right. This is not the place to bring that up. You could have PMed me or emailed me.

But since you insist, yes, you're banned. Again. Frankly, I don't think you deserve access to my summaries or the discussions that follow them between the community members. I'm tired of you quoting us without permission. I'm also tired of you constantly bashing 4Kids without anything original to add. If you have a new complaint, fine. But all you do is rehash the same stuff. It's extremely irritating and if my taking away access to my summaries can somehow stop you from doing that, then so be it. You didn't behave, as you promised you would, so membership revoked.

[mg_winxclub]

Here's one example for my argument for this episode... feel free to offer a counterexample, if you'd like.

Check out the third act, where the Trix chase Bloom and Tecna out of the room they were in. The animation of them coming out is really, really stiff, and so is pretty much the rest of the scene, up to the point where Miss Griffin regains control of the Tower and entraps the witches.

I'm sorry if I sounded cranky. I see where you're coming from, and know the one scene you're talking about. Sometimes when CGI is used, it can get that effect of taking a still and moving it across the screen. If animators are on a time crunch, tricks like this can be used to get through several shots. Other times a single image/shot can be used when someone is telling a story, such as when Layla was explaining when she visited the pixie village for the first time. The camera may pan from one part of the shot to another. These are just tricks of the trade used in animation. Some people consider it bring down the quality of a show, but I look more at the big picture, and don't let litle things like that bother me. Almost all cartoons use techniques similar to what you described.

[Freedom Fighter]

I'm sorry if I sounded cranky. I see where you're coming from, and know the one scene you're talking about. Sometimes when CGI is used, it can get that effect of taking a still and moving it across the screen. If animators are on a time crunch, tricks like this can be used to get through several shots. Other times a single image/shot can be used when someone is telling a story, such as when Layla was explaining when she visited the pixie village for the first time. The camera may pan from one part of the shot to another. These are just tricks of the trade used in animation. Some people consider it bring down the quality of a show, but I look more at the big picture, and don't let litle things like that bother me. Almost all cartoons use techniques similar to what you described.Eh, no problem. But I see where you're going. It's funny though... apparently, the fact that CGI can be more defined and beautiful than tranditional animation actually presents a caveat, because it's easier to spot errors, skips, and sliding tricks (which I'll call the example I referred to and you clarified) in computers. Where as with hand-drawn animation, there's a chance if it's not too obvious, they can get away with the shortcut without anyone crying foul.