I hereby pose a thought on Mario and his very existance

[Artimus Gigan]

Ah yes, something I've been pondering for quite sometime

Anyways since the Gamecube is on it's last legs, I do beleave it is safe to say that Mario has made his last platforming appearance when Mario Sunshine was released. I am somewhat dissapointed mainly because the 3D mario platformers have not really stood up to the competition all that well. There has only been two, and they were released once every five or so years. Now while Mario 64 was good for it's time, nothing looses distinction quicker than videogames, and Sunshine was middle ground and nothing really that memorable. Mario started out on platformers but has lately trancended into the realms of spin-offs instead of his signiture genre. However compared to the current platformer competition the mushroom kingdom does not seem all that alluring anymore.

So if I dare suggest, let us ponder the thought of taking the current mari-verse smashing it on it's head and taking the pieces that we want(old and new) and rebuild from scratch, I mean it has no true continuity in the games.

First off what I would like is to up the scale of Plot progession, we need more than just a captured princess to prceed on our way to Bowser's castle. Mario has never had anything to really re-enforce his personality in the games, if they gave him some it could easily freshen his image. They could also make Bowser more evil and introduce new characters, make his scehmes a bit more evil have it be a bit more mature, have more interaction between said characters. However by mature I mean along the lines of Kingdom Hearts, that perfectly combined cutsey with cool and that sort of take on Mario would work very well IMO. I mean if they added in a Koopa army with tanks and flying machines decending upon the mushroom kingdom in an act of domination that certainly would not be out of the question in the current mario-verse.

In Super Mario Bros. 3 one of the final stages was Mario going from vehicle to vehicle destroying the occupents and proceeded forward. I mean I would certainly love a stage where Mario ior Luigi take on hordes of Koopas and Goombas(like Kameo) and then taking on an armada of Koopa Airships, jumping vehicle to vehicle destroying it in a fast paced battle using classic powerups like Fireball and the raccoon suit. Adding bosses as supporting characters would certainly create many memorable battles as well. Even if they added the Koopalings that would suffice I would think. Or dare I suggest Bowser teaming up with Wario and Waluigi.

Also the mushroom kingdom denizens do not really get their fair shake of spotlight. Essentialy Toad could be to Mario what Otacon is to Solid Snake. Toad could be the go to guy, the information manager, he has a fairly decent established personality that could already work for that role. Also I would personaly like to see more human characters in Mario, we already have Mario and Lugi and there would be Daisy and Peach but they're usualy both captured and therefore are removed from most of the game. So prehaps more human characters with a supporting role could be introduced, dare I suggest the use of Human ninjas? Think like Naruto but having physical accents of all things mario. Or even it doesn't have to be ninjas. the Hammer Bros. suit could be altered for a human barbarian character or the Raccoon suit could work as inspiration for a theif character. Show that there are more things in the Mushroom kingdom than mushrooms, it would certainly freshen the outlook of it, broaden the horizens. I mean how many weird humanoid species has there been in Zelda? It would certainly not be out of Nintendo's style.

Also the balancing of Mario and Luigi, having them both in a new game and able to be the main focus would certainly be a good thing. they could have it be player selective. Or maybe go the route of duo and have them be both playable by the player and able to be switched on a whime sorta like Banjo Kazooie. Or they could even do the sqad based thing where it's Mario and two others(any more than 3 it gets confusing) and they follow mario around and help fight in battles.


in the end these are just some thoughts I'm throwing around

[Tak Mazé]

Mario was created so that it didn't have a plot. Not really anyway. This way, it could be easily sold around the world without too much needing doing to it. If it's plot you're after, I'd recommend going for Mario RPG, the Paper Mario series and the Mario & Luigi series. I personally wouldn't want Mario to go the same way as Sonic, where it tries to be more plot oriented but just ends up causing enormous plot-holes for itself.
I'm glad Nintendo have attempted to revive the classic by making a revamped Super Mario Bros for DS. That's definitely on my want list right now. I expect there will be even more 3D platformer outings with Mario, seeing as apparantly there is already one planned for the Cube, even though it says Mario 128. Wherever I go, people keep saying that it's an upcoming game. Well it's not! It's an E3 tech demo for the Cube where you have 128 Mario's running around the screen. At least that's what my N64 magazine used to say.

[Artimus Gigan]

Mario was created so that it didn't have a plot. Not really anyway. This way, it could be easily sold around the world without too much needing doing to it. If it's plot you're after, I'd recommend going for Mario RPG, the Paper Mario series and the Mario & Luigi series. I personally wouldn't want Mario to go the same way as Sonic, where it tries to be more plot oriented but just ends up causing enormous plot-holes for itself.
I'm glad Nintendo have attempted to revive the classic by making a revamped Super Mario Bros for DS. That's definitely on my want list right now. I expect there will be even more 3D platformer outings with Mario, seeing as apparantly there is already one planned for the Cube, even though it says Mario 128. Wherever I go, people keep saying that it's an upcoming game. Well it's not! It's an E3 tech demo for the Cube where you have 128 Mario's running around the screen. At least that's what my N64 magazine used to say.

But Super Mario RPG was released for the SNES and never became a series like it's breatheren Mario Kart or Mario Party.

[Tak Mazé]

It still has plot though. The Mario series doesn't follow a straight lined plot, but a set concept. That being, an overweight plumber and his brother save a princess from an evil king who happens to be a large fire-breathing tortoise. If you think about it that way, and add the fact that there are a lot of magic mushrooms and smashing your head against blocks along the way, it's kinda funny really :).

[Duke]

But Super Mario RPG was released for the SNES and never became a series like it's breatheren Mario Kart or Mario Party.
That's because Square and Nintendo had their temper-tantrum soon afterwards.

The SMRPG characters could greatly enhance the next platformer if Nintendo's willing to cooperate with Square on this one.

But whatever the next Mario platformer is, it better have the fireflower. It's been far, far too long since Mario's grabbed one, and I'm sure many fans would love to throw some fireballs in 3D. Even better if it became chargeable.

[Simpler Simon]

Call me old-fashioned, but I really can't stand it when the big companies start deciding their timeless characters suddenly need more complexity. Sonic fell apart the moment Sega started believing in its own chaos emerald mythology. And I never warmed up to the mario rpgs with their emphasis on making a "mario saves princess" tale more fleshed out than it needs to be. In fact, Nintendo pretty much saved Mario from falling into the Sonic franchise pitfalls by deciding to keep things simple and not include full voice for their games.

Mario has not made his last platforming appearance. Revolution will show people a whole new way to platform, and once again Mario will be industry king. His importance isn't in the story he has to offer against other platformers, but how he redefines their basic gameplay mechanics.

[.Automatisch]

It's Mario. Mario != deep, thoughtprovoking stuff. It's just a generic story to allow the game to continue being some of the best platforming of all time.

[Artimus Gigan]

snake']It's Mario. Mario != deep, thoughtprovoking stuff. It's just a generic story to allow the game to continue being some of the best platforming of all time.
Kingdom Hearts is a generic story, but the story is also interesting in terms of enjoying how the characters interact and adding a bith of depth in battle.

a good story does not have to be thought provoking

[.Automatisch]

Kingdom Hearts is a generic story, but the story is also interesting in terms of enjoying how the characters interact and adding a bith of depth in battle.

a good story does not have to be thought provoking

True... But it IS Mario. I don't think his target audience needs something more complex. I am, in fact, implying that Mario titles are geared toward younger games. That does not mean I don't love Mario, or that older gamers can't enjoy it. But let's be honest here. Why does Mario need such a change?

[Artimus Gigan]

snake']True... But it IS Mario. I don't think his target audience needs something more complex. I am, in fact, implying that Mario titles are geared toward younger games. That does not mean I don't love Mario, or that older gamers can't enjoy it. But let's be honest here. Why does Mario need such a change?
Because (to quote the opening of the Six Million Dollar man)



Gentlemen, we can rebuild him, we have the technology. Better than he was before. Better. Stronger. Faster."


I mean why not? Mario Sunshine was no prime maskerwork, it shows that the series needs to change.

[.Automatisch]

Because (to quote the opening of the Six Million Dollar man)



I mean why not? Mario Sunshine was no prime maskerwork, it shows that the series needs to change.

I agree with the Sunshine comment. But I don't really think it needs an entire overhaul. I'd go back to Mario64-style play, personally. The Water-Canon was not very interesting, and I just didn't care for it. Felt too gimicky. I'd be interested in a little bit of a change, but I think Mario should stay Mario in terms of story. No need to make something more complex than it needs to be.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

On the contrary, I feel Sunshine deviated from the plan a bit too much and that's why I didn't like it. SM64 is a great game and still is as the DS version. I would wager by now there are better platformers but for years that was not the case despite many many tries from many different companies.

Sonic really sank when it tried to be more complex same goes for Mega Man IMO. These games have good concept and as long as they don't over do it on sequels that can remain fresh enough to interest newer generations. Mario doesn't really have continuity post SMW (if even that) but it sorta does. It's like the various versions of Spider-Man comics. Much is the same but there are differences.

SMRPG didn't become a series but Paper Mario did. As did Mario and Luigi RPG's.

The reason Mario Kart gets so many sequels is because people love that game and want to play on as many tracks as they can and want it on every system they can get it for. But there has only been one per system and I imagine it'll stay that way. Mario Party though... that's just going overboard and honestly I don't think having two or more SSB's on any system is a bad thing since they could always change up the character line-up. Think of all the varients of Capcom fighters there are and fighting games in general.

I think Mario as is could do just fine in a new platformer but a good judge of that would be is "New SMB" does well on the DS and I see no reason to believe it wont.

Mario is a likable franchise and also a safe one parents can expect to be "clean" enough for even the youngest of gamers. That's why it works. It appeals to kids and adults because it's fun and simple. Too much complexity will only hurt it and let us not forget SM64, Super Mario Sunshine and even SM64 DS have all proven their worth in sales and gotten good reviews overall.

Mario is unstoppable my good sir. Just the way he is.

[Artimus Gigan]

snake']I agree with the Sunshine comment. But I don't really think it needs an entire overhaul. I'd go back to Mario64-style play, personally. The Water-Canon was not very interesting, and I just didn't care for it. Felt too gimicky. I'd be interested in a little bit of a change, but I think Mario should stay Mario in terms of story. No need to make something more complex than it needs to be.
But Mario 64 removed Mario Powerups like mushrooms, fire flowers, feathers, raccon suit, and others

they didn't give him anything to play with, and metal mario is just a sad excuse for a power up.

[Noukon]

But Mario 64 removed Mario Powerups like mushrooms, fire flowers, feathers, raccon suit, and others

they didn't give him anything to play with, and metal mario is just a sad excuse for a power up.

Power-ups look to be making a return in New SMB.

They could also add those back into the next 3-D platformer, though I'm more eager to see how they change the gameplay to fit with the Revolution controller.

[Matthew Williams]

are you guys forgetting New Super Mario Bros.?

It's a 2D Mario PLATFORMER with 3D graphics and stripped-down abilities (yes, the fireflower makes an appearance). It looks like it's kicking it old-school all the way.

It's coming out this year, hopefully. It's my most-wanted title.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

I thought Mario 64's wing cap and metal cap were awesome. The vanish cap was just kinda meh though. Metal power was tight IMO and I digged that music and hey the cape and racoon ears were neat and all but the wing cap let you fly like never before (but that's due to the way the game was designed not the power up itself, that could have been racoon ears or a cape if they changed the way Mario got around in the air but gliding with the wings was pretty good).

[.Automatisch]

I thought Mario 64's wing cap and metal cap were awesome. The vanish cap was just kinda meh though. Metal power was tight IMO and I digged that music and hey the cape and racoon ears were neat and all but the wing cap let you fly like never before (but that's due to the way the game was designed not the power up itself, that could have been racoon ears or a cape if they changed the way Mario got around in the air but gliding with the wings was pretty good).

I found the caps to be more interesting than standard Mario power-ups. Especially since this was somewhat of a rebirth for Mario, what with him being fully 3D and all. The power-ups seemed to be too numerous in some past titles, and I think having just a few is more interesting. Flying was incredible in SM64, and it was one of the best experiences I had on the 64 alone.

[Noukon]

are you guys forgetting New Super Mario Bros.?


It's been mentioned a few times. I'm definitely looking forward to that one.

[Chad Bonin]

And, I wouldn't be too surprised if Super Mario Revolution was 2D, given the "trailer" for it with the Freehand. A girl playing with it, flipping it up to make him jump, seemingly tilting it left and right to make him move that way...

Well, I can see SOME game using that.

[Zach]

Megaman may have fallen apart, but they were two games that Megaman was in that really fleshed out the universe and added a great plot and such. The Legends series. This shows that we can still have a regular Mario 3-D game, but an alternate game like Gigan's could be made. In fact, that idea sounds fun.

[Drachentöter]

I like Artimus' semi-complex saga idea; just not as a replacement to the standard 3D platformer.

Just because Sonic Team's script writers sucked majorly doesn't mean every platformer that attempts more mature ground is destined to ridiculous failure. The Mario RPGs (SMRPG, Paper Mario, Mario and Luigi) show that the Mushroom Kingdom can indeed have an involving mythology, it's just never made the transition to 360-degree, fully rendered 3D.

That said, abandonment of the traditional plot formula would be a mistake. The last truly critically and commercially successful Mario platformer was SM64, which had basically no plot whatsoever. Sometimes you just want a game you can pick up whenever and immediately play. My personal opinion is that these two styles should run independently and simultaneously, and if one has to be dominant, it should be the games light on plot.

[Rasputin]

I actually like Artimus' idea too, but there is a potential pitfall that the Sonic games fell into: loss of freedom.

In SM64 you basically had the run of the palace with the ability to choose whichever level you wanted and hunted for whichever star you desired inside the levels. If this kind of freeform freedom was present inside a Mario game with actual plot like Artimus', then I wouldn't mind a midge.

However, if there is to be a more complex plot, then one thing it shouldn't be is anal-retentive. The Mario-verse can't handle that, and to tell you the truth neither could Sonic's or Megaman's (I've had an idea or two about re-starting the Sonic world from scratch, but another time perhaps). It should be simple and charmingly retro, just like the previous games. And funny. With actual humour.

[Noukon]

Megaman may have fallen apart, but they were two games that Megaman was in that really fleshed out the universe and added a great plot and such. The Legends series. This shows that we can still have a regular Mario 3-D game, but an alternate game like Gigan's could be made. In fact, that idea sounds fun.

You could consider the Paper Mario games to be the Mario equivalent of the Legends games. They're perfect blends of platformer and RPG gameplay, and present a more in-depth look at the Mario "universe."

[Behonkiss]

1. The Legends games were set in a totally different timeline, much like Battle Network.

2. The series was canned after just two games (three if you count Tron Bonne).

I am all for the Mario games getting a bigger focus on good characters and stories. The RPGs, which have been the best Mario games since the platformers stopped coming, prove that it could work. That, and I'd like to see a change of pace with the spinoff series; maybe another Donkey Kong platformer starring the DKC crew (Jungle Beat and King of Swing don't count), or a Wario World sequel with the Ware characters, who are the freshest thing to hit Mario games in ages.

[Zach]

1. The Legends games were set in a totally different timeline, much like Battle Network.

2. The series was canned after just two games (three if you count Tron Bonne).

I am all for the Mario games getting a bigger focus on good characters and stories. The RPGs, which have been the best Mario games since the platformers stopped coming, prove that it could work. That, and I'd like to see a change of pace with the spinoff series; maybe another Donkey Kong platformer starring the DKC crew (Jungle Beat and King of Swing don't count), or a Wario World sequel with the Ware characters, who are the freshest thing to hit Mario games in ages.
It may have been canned, but we have another shot to get is started up again. When Megaman Legends is released for PSP, it needs to sell well enough that 3 gets the greenlight.

[sdp]

Mario,a plumber in a 'mushroom' kingdom, i mean you can't have a too serious continuity, it is no Final Fantasy. I also hate when they say they are milking mario, most of his 'milkin' are actually good/great spin-offs, and it is not something new either, mario makes at least a cameo in a crapload of NES games...

[Rasputin]

What I've come to realise is that complexity is good so long as the subject is tongue-in-cheek about it. For example, my idea for a Sonic 'back-to-basics' was thus...

Sonic starts off far from the land of his birth (Emerald Island) as an eco-terrorist attempting to blow up a power plant. He needs speed to get out before the security doors shut on him. Unfortunately...he stops to admire the view. He is co-opted by the human authorities and given a choice: prison or helping them. They need someone expendable to look into the dealings of a certain Ivo Robotnik, a real estate developer who appears to have gone off the deep end and started calling himself 'Dr. Eggman', building evil weapons of death and a giant orbital space station as a side-hobby. He's searching the world for these things called chaos emeralds, six of which are known to exist and all of them are on Sonic's old stomping ground of Emerald Isle. A chemical spill led to a bunch of animals there gaining sentience, including Sonic. 'course, since scarpering to fight people elsewhere (he's...well...a bit of a jerk) he's not entirely welcome there (Amy is schizophrenic about it: one moment she hates his guts and the next she loves him to ittle bitty bit bits). The only characters that show up are Sonic, Tails, Amy, Knuckles, Eggman and Metal Sonic. No silly nonsense about Shadow or convoluted bumph to confuse people. Just the plot of the first 3 games with a bit added to the beginning for context. Back to basics.

For Mario, the process is even simpler. Two Italian plumbers from Brooklyn land amidst a mass invasion of turtles. Moral ambiguity? Pah!

[Drachentöter]

For Mario, the process is even simpler. Two Italian plumbers from Brooklyn land amidst a mass invasion of turtles. Moral ambiguity? Pah!

....So...Super Mario Brothers the movie?

I will flip out if Nintendo makes the Mario Brothers a) Brooklynites or b) from an actual nation on this planet, period. In my view, they are citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom who happen to have accents that resemble the Italians.

Part of me did like the Mario Bros. movie, but the liberties they took kind of made the other dimension anticlimactic and hardly resembled the game. Mario is definitely not American.

[Tak Mazé]

I like to think of them as humans from our world, who found a way into their world. Is that how the movie puts it?
Personally, I don't really mind since all Mario means to me is squashing things and devouring mushrooms. It's like watching someone else have an acid trip.
A platformer with plot would be welcome though. I'm open to anything the Mario series has to offer because it's all been rather fun so far.

[Artimus Gigan]

Part of me did like the Mario Bros. movie, but the liberties they took kind of made the other dimension anticlimactic and hardly resembled the game. Mario is definitely not American.
All the TV series that have featured Mario make him and Luigi out to be american

[Andrew T. Hingson]

Why would people say Mario isn't American. He was born in Brooklyn for crying out loud.

[PC!]

All the TV series that have featured Mario make him and Luigi out to be american

DiC took liberties just as the movie did.

[ClockStomper]

Instead of having Mario or Luigi using some gimicky device how about a platformer or RPG with the humor and fun of the Paper Mario series, but in 3D. Mario and Luigi would be together, and the player could switch between them at a button tap. They'd each have their advantages and weakness, requiring you to alternate between them.

What burns me is that there's NOTHING stopping Nintendo from making more 3D Mario games, except for the fact that they just don't care. They know they can make Mario Partys and dumb sports games, so they don't bother putting in any effort.

The Gamecube could easily made really awesome, fully 3D Mario platformers. And a massive online 3D Pokemon RPG? Could have been done for years, but Nintendo took the cheap path at every step.

I really suspect the handheld department has a lot of talented people who love what they do, and the Gamecube department is being run by zombies.

[Rasputin]

....So...Super Mario Brothers the movie?

Emphatically not. For one thing, both Mario and Luigi have been made out to be Italian, and yet the game literature also says they're from Brooklyn. They're Italian and yet they live in Brooklyn. That such a thing seems illogical is part of the charm.

And making the twosome from Brooklyn was hardly the greatest offence the movie made upon mankind. Making the Mushroom Kingdom up to be an alternate dimension where the dinosaurs didn't die out and developed to be "My First Blade Runner" with 'devolving' laser guns was the lynchpin of the entire tragedy.

The words 'alternate dimension' should not be used. It is another place, another time. It is a land beyond the horizon where marvellous things happen. Mario and Luigi could have travelled there in a big hot-air balloon or something. Just because they could. One thing Mario can't lose is its innocence, its picture story-book sense. It is a child's world of make-believe, where fairy-tale castles lie just beyond the next hill. Geography has no place in this world.

[Noukon]

Instead of having Mario or Luigi using some gimicky device how about a platformer or RPG with the humor and fun of the Paper Mario series, but in 3D. Mario and Luigi would be together, and the player could switch between them at a button tap. They'd each have their advantages and weakness, requiring you to alternate between them.

What burns me is that there's NOTHING stopping Nintendo from making more 3D Mario games, except for the fact that they just don't care. They know they can make Mario Partys and dumb sports games, so they don't bother putting in any effort.

The Gamecube could easily made really awesome, fully 3D Mario platformers. And a massive online 3D Pokemon RPG? Could have been done for years, but Nintendo took the cheap path at every step.

I really suspect the handheld department has a lot of talented people who love what they do, and the Gamecube department is being run by zombies.

I think your perspective is a little off here.

Mario platformers sell like hotcakes, even if they're contrived and offer nothing genuinely original. Hell, look at the NES series... one of them was just a Mario skin slapped on an unrelated game. Nintendo will make a lot of money off of any Mario platformer they released; they aren't taking the "cheap" way out here.

Mario, as a character, drives sales across any given genre. That's why we see his face slapped on so many games.

The Mario platform games, however, have become Nintendo's main platform for showing off their new hardware innovations. Releasing sequel after sequel without significant advances in design and tech cheapens a game series; Nintendo cut that out with their Mario platformers after the NES.

[Duke]

Mario and Luigi could have travelled there in a big hot-air balloon or something. Just because they could.
Silly Rasputin. They didn't get there on a hot-air balloon, they fell down a pipe!

[Drachentöter]

I seem to remember maybe some game manual stating that the Mario brothers were born in Brooklyn. Can someone determine which ones say this and whether that's Miyamoto's vision or some NOA change?

My version of the origins is basically the Yoshi's Island story. Two brothers attacked by Koopa forces while they were en route to parents via the stork. The cutscene there looked decidely un-Earth like.

[Rasputin]

The point (I think) I was trying to make was that in Mario's world even Brooklyn would effectively be a figment of the imagination. Let's look at this from the games' point of view: the reason why Mario is always the hero is because the Mushroom Kingdom's filled with pipes and he's a plumber, making him instinctively good with pipes. It's a child's sense of a plumber being "someone who's good at pipes". In a world filled with pipes, logically, he'd be the mightiest warrior alive.

It's these logical absurdities that make Mario so endearing.

[Duke]

The point (I think) I was trying to make was that in Mario's world even Brooklyn would effectively be a figment of the imagination. Let's look at this from the games' point of view: the reason why Mario is always the hero is because the Mushroom Kingdom's filled with pipes and he's a plumber, making him instinctively good with pipes. It's a child's sense of a plumber being "someone who's good at pipes". In a world filled with pipes, logically, he'd be the mightiest warrior alive.
Don't forget his amazing jumping power, as SMRPG reminded us so well (yet he couldn't jump high enough to get that damn Treasure Box in Kero Sewers without criss-crossing half the world).

[G1Ravage]

I agree that the Mario games could use more story, especially since the latest generations of consoles had the ability to do so.

I'm afraid the Mario series is becoming too kiddy for its own good. I want Bowser to become evil again. I want to feel threatened by he and his minions. If Peach is kidnapped again, I want to feel compelled to save her. I want to experience a story that keeps you compelled all the way to the end. I want the Koopalings to return. I don't want to run around to collect 75 Power Stars or Shine Sprites, because that just happens to be the amount you need to "magically" open the path to Bowser.

And DAMMIT TO HELL, I want Luigi to play a serious role!!!