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Arsenal
01-02-2006, 02:02 PM
I constructed a similar thread in the DCAU forum that listed my ten favorite relationships from Batman, Superman et al. The intent then was to write a comparable thread for the Marvel cartoons, but first I had to do some research. There are a myriad of Marvel cartoons--everything from X-Men: TAS to Spiderman Unlimited to Avengers: United We Stand to Silver Surfer.

I decided to limit the eligible cartoons to those from the 90's on; so if your favorite coupling from '67 Spidey or Namor is not here, do not be offended. The eligible cartoons were X-Men, Spiderman, The Hulk, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, and Silver Surfer TAS's, Avengers, Spiderman Unlimited, Spiderman MTV, and X-Men Evolution. (Sorry, no Biker Mice.)

These 'ships were selected solely for their portrayal in the television show. Also, my opinions are subjective. I encourage rebuttal. (Bonus points to people who use the word forevah.)

I believe that will do for a disclaimer and without further prologue:

10. Felicia Hardy and Peter Parker (TAS)
The Semper Spiderman show was chock-full of hook-ups: Terry Lee and Blade, Kraven and Dr. Crawford, Morbius and Felicia, Debra and Flash, Peter and Mary Jane, Harry and Mary Jane, Peter and Felicia, Harry and Peter... wait, no, that's not right.

Very few of these couples received enough screen time. Almost all of them felt rushed. Some of them served no purpose whatsoever. (Debra and Flash only seemed to date so two peripheral characters had something to do. Why would the super-jock and the uber-geek be attracted to each other?)

The couple that received the most screen time, MJ and Peter, was marred because Peter was with MJ's clone for the last two seasons--not MJ. That cracks Peter's relationships into two separate dalliances: Peter with MJ and Peter with MJ2. (Imagine how confusing this would be if Ben Reilly got involved.) Peter didn't even marry the real MJ.

With MJ and MJ2 splitting my vote for favorite S-M:TAS couple, a dark horse was able to ride in and steal the election. Felicia Hardy and Peter had a longstanding flirtation. She even appeared in the show before Mary Jane. Furthermore when she became the Black Cat, she also became a character that could be with both Peter and Spiderman, a woman who need not be in distress. Granted, the creative team legitimately chose not to go in that direction. They wanted to keep Peter with MJ.

But when MJ disappeared who was the character that Peter seeked solace in? Felicia. After MJ2 was revealed as a hydroponic clone, who did Peter kiss? Felicia. Yes, there were Morbius and Mary Jane as obstacles, but it seemed that it was Felicia that Peter could depend on, not Mary Jane.

MJ, in this show, was a damsel in distress. She played the Gwen Stacy role. Think about it, who did the Green Goblin dispatch? Who was left? Felicia and Peter had chemistry; they had common ground; and if the creative team would have had the courage to pursue it, this couple could have been ranked higher than ten.

9. Logan and Ororo Munroe (TAS)
If you don't recall Logan and Storm dating, then you missed "One Man's Worth." It was ostensibly about what the world would be without Xavier, but the stars were an Elseworlds Wolverine and Storm, who saved one world by ending their own universe and relationship.

Doomed love is the most exciting kind. If Romeo and Juliette would have lived happily ever after, they would not be iconic lovers. True love requires tragedy, sacrifice. Maybe not on the scale of helping destroy your own reality, but it does make for compelling drama.

Every other couple on this list had at least thirteen episodes to establish itself. In forty minutes of good storytelling, this couple earned a place on my list. Their last hungry kiss moved me with it despair.

8. Alicia Masters and Ben Grimm
Discounting the awful first season, Alicia and Aunt Petunia's favorite nephew didn't get a lot of quality time together. They were overshadowed by the "Marvel's first couple" Reed and Sue Richards and the season-long story arc that dramatized the separation and reunion of Crystal and Johnny. But the Beauty and Beast dynamic of Alicia and Ben doesn't need a lot of screen time to be powerful.

In "A Blind Man shall Lead Them," the most poignant scene is when Ben prepares to pop the question. He may lose his courage to propose after he regains his crusty exterior, but it's a memorable scene to watch someone so strong be so vulnerable to the woman he loves. Ben is always ready with a quick quip or a walloping punch. It's only the cute, incidentally blind redhead who can disarm him.

Ben Grimm may provide the strength in the relationship--all puns intended--but it is Alicia who provides the stability. Remember what a wreck Ben was in "Fantastic Fortitude" without Alicia? Not even a randy She-Hulk could console him. Nah, for this Grimm, it's got to be the real thing. (No more puns now, I promise.)

7. Nova and Silver Surfer
"But wait!" one might exclaim. "When were these two a couple? Didn't Norrin Radd spend his entire series searching for his lost love Shalla Bal."

"Sure," I would respond with a smarmy tone, "but the subtext. You gotta read between the lines."

The soliliquies that the Surfer directed toward Shalla Bal were as overwrought and uninteresting as a monologue from "Othello" to a groundling who was waiting for a swordfight.

The Surfer was all about pomp and honor; but when the California-girl-gone-galactic flirted with him, you could tell he got a little... hot. (Last pun. Now I'm finished.) The palpable sexual tension between the two melted away some of the *ahem* frustration that the Surfer must have felt at not being able to see Shalla. While Shalla Bal was an ideal of a woman, unattainable and distant, Nova was girl-next-door pretty and available. C'mon, they even flirted in Galactus' innards.

I'll paraphrase Larry Boyd's series bible: if the Surfer never found Shalla Bal, it would not have been from lack of effort. It would have been because of Nova.

6. Bruce Banner and Betty Ross
Forget season two ever happened. Do it, you'll feel better. Is it gone? Okay, let's continue.

Doomed lovers. Mortal enemies. Gamma radiation. Hulk-busting robots. This, my friends, is Shakespearean. Bruce and Betty desperately love each other, though Betty can't wholly trust Bruce because every now and then he turns into a rampaging monster that can destroy cities. Meanwhile, her father is trying to destroy Bruce and drives himself insane in the process. Finally, Bruce is on the lam because he doesn't want to hurt anyone--least of all Betty.

It all climaxes in a botched wedding where the best man is shot, two Hulks form, and Bruce leaves Betty again. Want to know what happened next?

Me too. Too bad we got season two instead.

5. Scott Summers and Jean Grey (TAS)
I deliberated whether to include the TAS or Evo rendition of this couple. Both had their strengths: Evo let the couple come to a slow simmer than introduced Duncan, Taryn and other red herrings to the recipe. It finally came to a boil in "Blind Alley" when Jean declares, "Get away from my man." Later, she cradles Scott in her arms. And the couple didn't do a damn interesting thing after that.

Evo was all about the chase, the moment they got together the tension was gone. (Think Moonlighting or Lois and Clark.) In TAS, there was no chase. At the series' beginning, they were already together. Sure, there was Wolverine and Callisto; and it got pretty steamy when a torn-tuxedoed Logan told Jean, that he needed her, on her wedding day, no less. But we knew it was Scott and Jean. If they ever wavered, it was imperceptible.

Scott and Jean (TAS) are hard to peg. They're never as hot as Rogue and Gambit, not as antagonistic as Warren and Betsy, not as sweet as Beast and Carly (who nearly made the list, but, in the end, they were too similar to Ben and Alicia.) What Scott and Jean are is stable, and stable can quickly become boring. It is true that Scott and Jean often depended upon external circumstances to carry an episode. Both of their marriages were interrupted. They couldn't even get through a date without the Morlocks hijacking them.
Also, I could do without the "Jean!" "Scott!" shouting.

Though imperfect, what sealed the Summers-Grey's place in my relationship countdown was Scott's grief after losing his wife for the first time. Scott's a quiet, personal guy. His breakdown was painful to watch. (And unlike Peter Parker, we never saw Scott stray in the interim.) Sometimes stable is boring, and sometimes stability speaks volumes.

4. Mary Jane Watson and Peter Parker (MTV)
Let me preface this entry by saying I didn't like the MTV series. Too many stupid villains. (Even if I didn't mind Electro as an awkward undergrad, an Eve-voiced Talon was too much to tolerate.) That having been said, the MTV series portrayed the conflicted Peter well. Whenever there was a romantic opportunity with MJ, he absconded to do something superheroic. Oh yeah, then he dated Indy. (I hated her too.)

MJ and Peter were awkward. They could never express themselves to one another. In thirteen episodes, they couldn't even go on a decent date. Their feet constantly wound up in their mouths, and the closest thing they got to resolution was when Peter shoved the other woman off of a roof. Sounds like young love to me. (Except for the roof bit. Loved that.)

3. Lance Alvers and Kitty Pride (Evo)
I fear Evo shippers. They are an opinionated bunch, and it seems like everybody has a favorite coupling from this show. Well, this is mine. I like it because it made no sense.

First meeting, Lance collapses a roof on Kitty's parents. Sure, some guys tug pigtails when they like a girl, but attempted homicide is bad flirting etiquette.

Second season, suddenly Lance has a crush. He's saving Kitty's life. He's risking his own. He's joining the X-Men. Most important, he's making less "rock 'n roll" puns. We have a well-developed character and an unlikely romance.

Third season, they break up. (If you can count one dance and a few late-night phone calls as a relationship.) They'd have to. Lance did try to blow up Kitty's house. (Lance's feelings could be summated by Julian Keller to Sofia Montega in New X-Men: "Like you, hate your friends.")

Fourth season, they reconvene. Not because it made anymore sense. No, he was still a high-school dropout squatting at his ex-principal's house, and she was still uptight (though less sheltered). No, they made up because that's what the characters would have done. And by now, the characters were so well fleshed out--in no small part, because of their relationship--that the relationship could be understood... as well as any "sleeping with the quasi-enemy, sometimes ally" relationship can.

2. Wanda Maximoff and Wonder Man/Vision
Much of Avengers: United we Stand show was bad, painfully bad. That includes the Tigra/Falcon flirtation. (I imagine their children looking like Griffins.) Surprisingly, the show got one of the most complicated relationships transliterated from the comics correct.

The Wanda and Simon stuff seemed rushed at the beginning of the series. Of course, they only had two episodes before he was put in a coma and replaced by a former antagonist, Vision.

Then came the complicated stuff. Vision was given Simon's "imprints." Does that make him Simon? Simonesque? Is that why Vision is so concerned for Wanda? Does that mean all the light flirting between Wanda and the robot is cheating? Okay, enough rhetorical questions.

Just when the robot-mutant flirtation became less creepy and more cute, Simon wakes up. He realizes that Wanda is seeing "imprints" of him. (In essence, he lost her to himself.) Wanda tearfully replies that things are "complicated."

Complicated, indeed. And soap-opera brilliant. When Simon returns to his coma, Wanda is torn between two men who are really one man and one robot, who are really one man.

Avengers mercifully ended after one season with many plotlines unresolved. This is the only one I regret.

1. Tony Stark and Julia Carpenter
Apropos of nothing, Julia is the fourth redhead on the list.

Usually the guy chases the girl. Pepe Lepew, the Mario Brothers, Ross, Cyrano de Bergerac... they all chased the girl. Well, Cyrano only chased in the loosest sense. First, he helped Christian win Roxanne's affections, then he... I'm getting off on a tangent, aren't I? Women chasing men is not uncommon; but, due to gender roles, it is unexpected in most media.

Julia tried for two seasons to chip through Tony's shell. (That wasn't supposed to be a pun.) Every time Tony tried to push her away, she came right back. When Force Works disbanded, she stayed. Even after that nonsense of marrying a robot, she stayed. She was committed to emotionally-crippled narcissist. Sometimes we wondered why she stuck around, but we were glad she did; because we knew what Tony didn't. He needed her.

It wasn't until Tony fought the Hulk that he realizedhow much he cared for her. If only something big, green and ugly would've knocked some sense into him sooner.

Stu
01-02-2006, 02:34 PM
Bravo sir. You make a some very compelling points regarding some of the vastly underatted (unnoticed?) Marvel animation romances.


10. Felicia Hardy and Peter Parker (TAS)
I thought this was great. Even though her snobbish ways could become highly annoying in some parts, I still thought she worked much better than MJ did. There was some great chemistry between the two here, and it's arguably got more interesting as we went along, Felicia wanted Peter, Peter wanted Felicia, Felicia wanted Spider-Man, Peter wanted MJ, Black Cat wanted Spider-Man, Felicia wanted Morbius, Spider-Man wanted Felicia before a rather sudden proposal put a stop to it all.

Along with finding out what happened to the real Mary Jane, the unproduced 6th season was dying for an episode in which Peter and Felicia discover each other's masks. The writers often used the romances in order to hold the interest of the older audiences in this show, and when it worked, it worked.

More later...

90'sCartoonMan
01-03-2006, 11:13 PM
Wow, Arsenal, I didn't know you were so well-versed in Marvel cartoons from the last 15 years. And it's very, very sad that half the cartoons on your list are either unresolved or have a season better left forgotten. Anyway...
10. Felicia Hardy and Peter Parker (TAS)
You bring up some valid points, but I disagree. Felicia and Peter (without their alter egos) could never be together, I saw that as early as the Doctor Octopus episode. My absolute favorite moment in the series is when Spider-Man tells Mary Jane who he really is and proposes to her. Clone or no, Peter thinks he's proposing to Mary Jane, and that's what counts.
9. Logan and Ororo Munroe (TAS)
I felt a sniffle coming on at the end of "One Man's Worth" when reality as we know it is restored and Wolverine and Storm have their moment in the woods where Storm says Logan is beautiful.
8. Alicia Masters and Ben Grimm
I always loved Johnny and Crystal, but that could be because the show made such a point of it. Ben and Alicia was great, and "A Blind Man Shall Lead Them" really showed that. Too bad in "Fantastic Fortitude" we learn that because of Ben's doubts, their relationship is still a little rocky (you're not the only one who can make puns, ya know).
7. Nova and Silver Surfer
Can't say I remember this too well. Flirted in Galactus' innards?! Ew! Uh...um...hey, wasn't Spider-Man and Lady Vermin a lot of fun?
6. Bruce Banner and Betty Ross
This one was definitely a classic, that wedding was heartbreaking...
5. Scott Summers and Jean Grey (TAS)
I actually prefer their pairing in Evo. Not only "Blind Alley", but...uh..."Power Surge", was it? Scott saying he knows Jean more than anyone else. Him losing her in TAS was good, but we didn't see enough if you ask me (maybe if they aired "No Mutant Is An Island" in order).
<b>4. Mary Jane Watson and Peter Parker (MTV) I couldn't get invested in that knowing it would hold out for any development that would happen in the next Spider-Man movie.
3. Lance Alvers and Kitty Pride (Evo)
Lance + Kitty 4-evah! Most believable and realistic relationship on here.
Most important, he's making less &quot;rock 'n roll&quot; puns. You should be the one to talk.
2. Wanda Maximoff and Wonder Man/Vision
It had potential, especially the one where Vision tried to comfort her, but ehh...didn't do much for me.
1. Tony Starks and Julia Carpenter
It's Tony Stark, and I never thought of it that way. Julia did pursue him...hm...I'd like to re-watch season 2...must...summon...DVD! Relationships not on the list - Black Cat/Morbius, Mysterio/Miranda Wilson, and Xavier/Lilandra (loved how conflicted she was during the Phoenix Saga).

Arsenal
01-04-2006, 10:53 AM
My absolute favorite moment in the series is when Spider-Man tells Mary Jane who he really is and proposes to her. Clone or no, Peter thinks he's proposing to Mary Jane, and that's what counts.

Once I was dating a girl who had an identical twin. (Her name was Monica.) Her twin, Bri, thought it would be funny to make out with me under the pretense of being Monica. (To this day, I have no idea why.) When I arrived to see Monica, Bri grabbed me and began kissing me. (Why can't more women do this?) I thought it was Monica; but when Monica walked in and saw me with her her sister, it did not matter what I thought. Monica thought I was cheating with her sister.

Intentions aside, Peter cheated on Mary Jane with Mary Jane. Weird.


Ew! Uh...um...hey, wasn't Spider-Man and Lady Vermin a lot of fun?

All jokes aside, Naoko/Peter/Green Goblin almost made the list. That love triangle--square counting Mary Jane--had a ton of potential. Unfortunately, it never had a chance to develop.


I actually prefer their pairing in Evo.

Neither Evo nor TAS struck me as definitive. Like most Evo v. TAS comparisons, this one comes down to preference.


I couldn't get invested in that knowing it would hold out for any development that would happen in the next Spider-Man movie.

Maybe that's why I liked this relationship. In my opinion, Peter loses something when he's happy. And the MTV series was never going to give Peter what we wanted. Had this gone on for more than 13 episodes, I'm sure it would have grated; but we all know that didn't happen.


It's Tony Stark

Give me a break, I spelled Maximoff right, didn't I?

90'sCartoonMan
01-05-2006, 08:34 AM
Once I was dating a girl who had an identical twin. (Her name was Monica.) Her twin, Bri, thought it would be funny to make out with me under the pretense of being Monica. (To this day, I have no idea why.) When I arrived to see Monica, Bri grabbed me and began kissing me. (Why can't more women do this?) I thought it was Monica; but when Monica walked in and saw me with her her sister, it did not matter what I thought. Monica thought I was cheating with her sister.

Intentions aside, Peter cheated on Mary Jane with Mary Jane. Weird.
Your situation was still different (and, to be honest, strange). Bri knew she wasn't Monica and decieved you. Clone Mary Jane thought she was the real Mary Jane, so you can infer that if they HAD found the real Mary Jane rather than the clone, the exact same thing would happen - Peter would reveal his identity to her and they'd get married. Except, of course, Mary Jane wouldn't evaporate.>
All jokes aside, Naoko/Peter/Green Goblin almost made the list. That love triangle--square counting Mary Jane--had a ton of potential. Unfortunately, it never had a chance to develop.
It was interesting, but I could never really get into Spider-Man Unlimited. The concept seemed kinda pointless, so I didn't much care for new characters.>
Maybe that's why I liked this relationship. In my opinion, Peter loses something when he's happy. And the MTV series was never going to give Peter what we wanted. Had this gone on for more than 13 episodes, I'm sure it would have grated; but we all know that didn't happen.
True, for what it was in those 13 episodes, it worked.>
Give me a break, I spelled Maximoff right, didn't I?
I'm only giving you a break because you remember more about Iron Man than I did. For me the definitive Tony/Julia relationship episode was the one with Madam Masque, but maybe it was the Hulk episode. I really need to see those again (having Fantastic Four and not Iron Man feels weird). As weird as Julia referring to their &quot;marriage&quot;. It was sort of an awkward transition to refer so heavily to that season one episode in season two.
I still really like Mysterio/Miranda Wilson. I mean, he actually DIED with her. That was it, he abandoned his revenge scheme on Spider-Man for her. Sorta sudden, but I like it.

Stu
01-09-2006, 05:57 PM
Whilst it's not on the list, I thought Johnny and Crystal's relationship was poorly done. It was far too rushed to have any great impact, and it wasn't minutes ago that Torch seemed to have a thing for Medusa! It didn't help that Johnny spent most of his time moping over her, despite knowing her for all of 20 minutes. Considering how good Ben/Alicia was, I can't help but be dissapointed with this relationship.

My favourite Marvel romance is Beast/Carley. Considerably well done, with a tragic ending. I think Peter and MJ would've easily topped this in the MTV series, had they not gone and senselessly added Indy. It was just baffeling, he couldn't jepordise MJ with a relationship, yet Indy was fair game. No wonder she fly off a building...

Arsenal
01-09-2006, 06:47 PM
Your situation was still different (and, to be honest, strange).

Yeah, I've got some crazy stories, but that's neither here nor there. I understand what you are saying about the difference and you are right. MJ2 thought she was MJ; but MJ and her clone were two different people, regardless of what the clone thought.


My favourite Marvel romance is Beast/Carley.

Loved this one too. I thought it was heavily influenced by Ben/Alicia.

Spider-Man
01-23-2006, 05:57 AM
Loved this one too. I thought it was heavily influenced by Ben/Alicia.
I agree. It seemed to be essentially the exact same situation just slightly molded to fit the different characters. But it still was an excellent storyline and it wasa bit of a heartbreak. I was surprised they never actually brought the Trish Tilby/Beast romance into the series. I remember they actually had Tilby in there at least for a cameo but it would have been nice to devote an episode to that to just look at how complicated a relationship it is and was in the comics.

I got a bit of a chuckle out of your "Peter cheated on Mary Jane with Mary Jane" comment because it's true and it won't go over well whenever Peter tells her.

Stu
01-29-2006, 05:25 PM
It does seem odd that Carly and Hank had more of an emotional pull that The Thing and Alicia despite the fact one had a single episode and the other had full two full seasons.

It's a shame most of the romances in Fantastic Four where wasted on Johnny. I found him constantly falling for any women he saw to be highly annoying. 13 episodes and he was fell for Medusa, Crystal, Frankie... a little overkill don't you think?

ShadowDemon
01-29-2006, 07:04 PM
What, no love for Gambit/Rogue (TAS), or Rogue/Scott (Evo)?

The first two hot-tempered Southerners who spend their lives closing other people out only to fall head over heels for each other (if they don't kill each other first).

The second a definitley there, but never acted on love that could have been if not for Scott's blind infatuation with the man-manipulating Jean...

Arsenal
01-29-2006, 09:56 PM
It's a shame most of the romances in Fantastic Four where wasted on Johnny. I found him constantly falling for any women he saw to be highly annoying. 13 episodes and he was fell for Medusa, Crystal, Frankie... a little overkill don't you think?

What about Ms. Forbes' daughter? You know, the one he performed that horrendous "Flame On" rap for.

As for the Rogue/Scott (Evo) love, I did think the relationship had potential. They showed some chemistry trading barbs from Taming of the Shrew. Unfortunately, Rogue/Scott was sidelined for the inevitability of Scott/Jean. Maybe if Scott would have reciprocated a little...

I realize knocking Scott/Jean and Rogue/Remy might amount to heresy, but I never thought either of those relationships gelled in Evo. Rogue/Remy felt forced, and Scott/Jean was a tad predictable in their interactions (though Blind Alley was cool.)

Spider-Man
01-31-2006, 07:30 AM
It's a shame most of the romances in Fantastic Four where wasted on Johnny. I found him constantly falling for any women he saw to be highly annoying. 13 episodes and he was fell for Medusa, Crystal, Frankie... a little overkill don't you think?
I agree and I think the only reason he fell in love with so many is because they were just shuffling through some of the relations he had in the comic. I was surprised they skipped over the Skrull he dated back in the 1990s. Still I think these relationships also worked more for people who read the comic but only in a "they did that in the comics too! Cool!" kind of a way. I was personally hoping for more between him and Crystal.

As for the Thing they didn't focus too much on him and his relationship in the second season which is a bit of a shame There is some great emotion to be tapped there if done right. There's a reason why The Thing is one of best Marvel characters and the only good thing about that terrible live-action Fantastic Four movie from last summer.

Is it or are alot of the romances in Marvel cartoons just rushed?

Crash
01-31-2006, 06:05 PM
As for the Rogue/Scott (Evo) love, I did think the relationship had potential. They showed some chemistry trading barbs from Taming of the Shrew. Unfortunately, Rogue/Scott was sidelined for the inevitability of Scott/Jean. Maybe if Scott would have reciprocated a little...

I realize knocking Scott/Jean and Rogue/Remy might amount to heresy, but I never thought either of those relationships gelled in Evo. Rogue/Remy felt forced, and Scott/Jean was a tad predictable in their interactions (though Blind Alley was cool.)

Rogue/Remy was the worst thing to happen to Evolution. In the middle of a fight, Gambit hands her an exploding king-of-hearts card, and all she can do is stare dumbfounded at him. As a wink to the fans, that was awful. (Kitty and Collossus exchanging glances before she dragged him into the warehouse, however, was well done.)

I was rooting for Scott/Rogue, myself. I knew I was setting myself up for a dissapointment, but the couple just seemed so....right. Two withdrawn kids (from broken families) whose powers are liabilities. One without self-confidance, the other with confidance but not realizing how that affected others... That and that fact that Jean seemed so stuck up in the series... It just seemed like a fun coupling. As far as interpersonal relationships go, I thought On Angel's Wings was much cooler than Blind Alley.

Arsenal
02-08-2006, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Spider-Man
Is it me or are alot of the romances in Marvel cartoons just rushed?

I've given this question some thought, and I agree. Moreso, I think I know why many of the relationships feel rushed.

Often, Marvel cartoons draw very heavily from source material. All of the ones discussed here except for Lance/Kitty, Beast/Carly, Mysterio/Miranda and the Spiderman Unlimited quadrangle have basis in the comics. (And all have received generally positive reviews.)

If something is based on the comics, we tend to question it less when it is transliterated to a television show. We accept it more readily. Perhaps the creators thought a relationship that was already comic book canon would need less screen time, then one that was not.

Couples that have no comics basis (like the ones listed above) must be cultivated from scratch, and that takes more time. Also, the dynamic for a Jean/Scott or Sue/Reed relationship are already established. The creators of X-Men Evolution had to try a few times to get Lance and Kitty's rapport perfect.

(Evo and Spiderman Unlimited seem to be the exceptions to Spidey's "rushed relationship" rule. Oddly, these cartoons were also the ones least interested in preserving canon.)

Spider-Man
02-10-2006, 09:42 AM
They probably had to squeeze out some of the more slower moments of the cartoons when putting them together and the relationship stuff was probably first to go. It just made a few things come off as just out of nowhere. I remember just being surprised when Harry proposed to Mary Jane despite there being little previous knowledge that those characters have gotten that close in the 1990s Spider-Man cartoon. It was just jumps like that which threw me off.

And that one or two episode arc with Scorpion and his girlfriend? What was that about?!

ifthismeansevos
04-10-2006, 10:09 PM
Uh How can I start? Ben & Alicia was cool specially in A blind man shall lead them. Maybe if they'd decided to end the relationship after that point that could prove to be dramatical.
Then Kitty and Colossus moments were good less forced than Romy (I wait almost two years to see the fourth season and when I saw Cajun Spice I realize no matter how much I love Evo Rogue an episode about Legion's fate could work betta. But Kitty and Lance were ok also.
Now Jean and Scott sucks in Evo I really felt more simpathy for Scott and Rogue. And can somebody tell me if the producers of Evo visited Mexico dity before they made the episode.
Ya know I'm mexican and I live here and:
1 Why if Scott was in Sonora's desert he ended ina a hospital in Mexico city like 500 kilometers away?
2 There are no books in our public phones...we're just so evil and burn them or something (Well not me but the general pop)
3 Tunnels? They felt into a tunnel no? (I just saw the episode once so...) It could work better in a place not far from the place they mentioned (Plaza de las 3 culturas) wich is empty most of the year and seems like a well an abandoned lonely place except when ironically a comic-manga reunion has place there(Maybe that's ungramatical but I hope you understand)
Now I ended my complain about Blind alley...that and the fact Rogue never came here just Jean awful!!

Bones Justice
04-13-2006, 03:49 PM
My favorite was Gambit and Rogue from X-Men TAS. Not only did I really like both characters, I also thought they really nailed the whole "forbidden love" thing quite well. Both of 'em want it but they know it can't work. And it doesn't hurt that they were featured in my favorite episode, Days of Future Past.

The other one I really liked was the whole Peter/Mary Jane/Indy triangle in Spider-man on MTV. This also felt more real to me. The whole thing where Mary Jane thinks she has the exclusive on Peter even though they have obviously never made a committment. Plus, Mary Jane and Indy could not have been more different yet it was easy to see why Peter could be attracted to both of them.

Maybe these two examples seemed to work because I've been in similar circumstances myself. But I still think they were well written.

Arsenal
04-14-2006, 12:41 PM
My favorite was Gambit and Rogue from X-Men TAS. Not only did I really like both characters, I also thought they really nailed the whole "forbidden love" thing quite well. Both of 'em want it but they know it can't work. And it doesn't hurt that they were featured in my favorite episode, Days of Future Past.


I am conflicted regarding Gambit and Rogue. They worked well early on. I liked DoFP, X-Ternally Yours, and the way Morph used them in Til Death do us Part. One of the best moments in "Final Decision" was when Rogue gives Gambit a "kiss." Their banter was good. The love/hate dialogue was very Rock Hudson/Doris Day.

The forbidden love stuff was very compelling too. Rogue's line in the cure, "Even swamp rats want a woman they can touch," set the tone. She considered sacrificing her considerable abilities, so she could have a physical relationship with Gambit. I loved the will they/won't they/can they stuff. Of course, the pastiche becomes old hat eventually. (The comics have been playing with it for more than a decade.)

For some reason, the relationship lost its spark in later seasons. Gambit as the jealous boyfriend in "Obsession" did nothing for me, and "Love in Vain" was abysmal. The reappearance of Cody--let alone a man Rogue could touch--could have been interesting. Instead, it was a big, honking mess of weird. (Granted, it was because they tried to shoehorn Cody in with the Brood. Weird, and fruitless.)

"Nightcrawler" was their last, great episode. Their debate about the existence of God was subtle, but filled with tension. Rogue likely pictured herself taking the kids alone to Church while Gambit slept in. I appreciated the couple most when Gambit played the scoundrel. You could tell Rogue wanted to dote, but their personalities (and her power) wouldn't allow her.

The couple disappeared in season five. They didn't share a scene until Gambit had been recasted, and the new v.a. deflated some well-written scenes in "Hidden Agenda." The "Mrs. LeBeau" bit could have given the audience some closure. Instead, it made me groan because of the overcooked Cajun accent.

Gambit and Rogue had powerful moments, but they are all concentrated in the first three seasons. The couple is like T.S. Eliot's "Hollow Men." It ends not with a bang, but a whimper.

Spider-Man
04-16-2006, 11:19 AM
Gambit and Rogue had powerful moments, but they are all concentrated in the first three seasons. The couple is like T.S. Eliot's "Hollow Men." It ends not with a bang, but a whimper.
It probably got very difficult for the writers to keep coming up with moments in the cartoon for the two characters. The comics can't just stretch things out for years but the cartoons are different. I did like the initial idea of them being a struggling couple but the fact that the cartoons couldn't find ways to keep it constantly entertaining show that maybe this is one relationship that's not meant to be.

I.R Joey
04-16-2006, 06:17 PM
I think Rouge and Gambit in TAS deserves a mention here. They had alot of chemistry going on.

cheeno
04-18-2006, 10:33 AM
I dont know why many people hate Jean and Scott.But I found the couple quite interesting.Their love story was best potrayed in evo and it could have done an even better job while the show lasted for its' 5th season.

Spider-Man
04-20-2006, 09:39 AM
I dont know why many people hate Jean and Scott.But I found the couple quite interesting.Their love story was best potrayed in evo and it could have done an even better job while the show lasted for its' 5th season.
Not quite. I thought their love story wasn't portrayed that well at all. We got the typical teen angst and they just gradually came together. I thought it could've been handled just a bit better. They could've thrown a twist or two in there to add a shock or two. It was portrayed in a pretty standard way.

Bones Justice
05-02-2006, 09:09 PM
It probably got very difficult for the writers to keep coming up with moments in the cartoon for the two characters. The comics can't just stretch things out for years but the cartoons are different. I did like the initial idea of them being a struggling couple but the fact that the cartoons couldn't find ways to keep it constantly entertaining show that maybe this is one relationship that's not meant to be.

Right, that's why I think it's one of the best that's been done. Like a real unworkable relationship, it's hot in the beginning then trails off in the end. I always find it a lot more unbelievable when the story has them come together happily ever after. It's very unrealistic unless something drastically changes and it rarely does. In this case, you either have to have Rogue lose her powers (not entertaining) or have some plot-device that allows them to come together (usually not believable (and no pun intended, of course)).

I count Rogue and Gambit from X-Men TAS as one of the best because it was engaging at first and truthful to the end.

Nygma
10-29-2009, 02:40 AM
Not sure if Arsenal has the will to upgrade the romances in this thread. But I feel some of them in Spectacular Spider-Man have earned a spot or two in this thread, despite them not reaching the potential that they're capable of reaching. But given more seasons I imagine it would be able to do that.

Oh and there's also Wolverine and the X-Men, so how about the recent romances?

Arsenal
10-31-2009, 07:56 AM
Y'know, Nygma, I think you're right. At the very least, Gwen & Peter deserve some love. (I have a soft spot for Peter & Liz, also.) It probably deserves a new thread though.

sdp
10-31-2009, 01:07 PM
I'm confused at what the thread is about, relationships that were done well or just ships you support? I'm assuming its the former but some choices make it seem like its the latter.

First I'll go through his list and then post the ones I believe deserve attention that don't really get.



10. Felicia Hardy and Peter Parker (TAS)
While I didn't want them together in the end, this pairing was done so well through out all seasons of the show, at first you think the relationship is over but then it comes back again, They really did have great chemistry, would have loved to see another Spiderman season mostly because I was sure it'd have more romantic interaction between them.




9. Logan and Ororo Munroe (TAS)

Such an odd pairing but yeah I'd agree that it was done great, by the end of the episode I truly did feel bad for them.


8. Alicia Masters and Ben Grimm
Meh, it was there but it was done really poorly in the 90s animated show, it was done much better in the FF:WGHs though it still wasn't great. I like the pairing but it hasn't been done great in animation. WGH didn't do bad but could be better.




7. Nova and Silver Surfer
This one feels like a ship, SS was not interested in Nova at all, he was all about Shalla Bal in his show. In fact if you used the SS/Alicia Masters from the FF then maybe I'd agree, that was done pretty good there you could see maybe SS and Alicia could have something but his love for Shalla Bal truly felt tragic, he spent the entire season trying to get to her.



6. Bruce Banner and Betty Ross
Meh, I thought this wasn't handled too well.




5. Scott Summers and Jean Grey (TAS)
I prefer the TAS version over Evo, I don't know the Evo one felt kind of forced at times and Jean going out with the other guy at first didn't work out too well either.

There were times when I liked the Evo's version more but it was never followed through. It was when Rogue would show interest in Cyclops and Jean getting jealous, they showed it on various episodes but never culminated it with an episode, such a wasted opportunity. It would have been a great episode and maybe made me like this version better but it didn't happen so yeah TAS.




4. Mary Jane Watson and Peter Parker (MTV)
What? this one didn't make much sense at all. It was supposed to based off the movie continuity but it didn't fit with the characters in the movie. In the show MJ would always try to get all flirty with Peter and whatnot and Peter would just blow her off.




3. Lance Alvers and Kitty Pride (Evo)
I liked how they continued it through out the later seasons somewhat, I was sure it was going to be forgotten. It fits that universe fine. Nightcrawler was kind of forgotten and only brought back when they wanted, it started off ok but it was handled terribly later only using it randomly in the future and then forgetting it again. I mean it could have been an interesting love triangle instead of forgotten, and Nightcrawler ended up without no one pretty much because of it.



2. Wanda Maximoff and Wonder Man/Vision
Yeah, this one was actually pretty interesting, especially when both Wonder Man and Vision are alive at the same time, much more could have been explored too bad we didn't get to see it happen.

[/QUOTE]
1. Tony Stark and Julia Carpenter
[/QUOTE]
Another one that was just kind of there but was handled terribly.


----------------------------------------------


So yeah for my list besides the ones i really like from above I'll include:

Peter Parker Unlimited/Naoko/green goblin/shane/mj
This one was done in a subtle way but it was there. We know Peters love of his life is Mary Jane, but now that he is on counter earth he is living with Naoko and you can kind of see Naoko and Peter become close, shane really likes peter and not only does Peter have MJ on earth waiting for him but the green goblin is the husband of Naoko. It was clear the second season was going to go through with it to make the GG his enemy on counter earth.


MTV's Peter Parker and Indy
What I thought it'd be something annoying I ended up really liking it, she and peter made a great couple which only made her death much harder. Unlike MJ it really felt like both people were interested.


I know some people here mentioned Beast and that girl from TAS and yeah it was handled well but I also thought the one with the computer falls in love with Beast was a good romance episode.

Also out of all of Jonny's love interest in FF TAS the one that felt the best was Frankie/Nova.

W.C.Reaf
10-31-2009, 01:57 PM
I liked how they continued it through out the later seasons somewhat, I was sure it was going to be forgotten. It fits that universe fine. Nightcrawler was kind of forgotten and only brought back when they wanted, it started off ok but it was handled terribly later only using it randomly in the future and then forgetting it again. I mean it could have been an interesting love triangle instead of forgotten, and Nightcrawler ended up without no one pretty much because of it.

Except for his girlfriend, whose name I can't remember, from season 2 onwards.

I never really got the whole Kitty/Kurt thing. Sure he had a crush on her at the beginning but they pretty much became good friends with no hints of crushes either way towards the end of season 1.


MTV's Peter Parker and Indy
What I thought it'd be something annoying I ended up really liking it, she and peter made a great couple which only made her death much harder. Unlike MJ it really felt like both people were interested.

This couple doesn't make any sense to me. The show was meant to be in continuity with the movies and at the end of 1 he decided to no date MJ because it was too dangerous being the girlfriend of a superhero. So why is it suddenly not dangerous for Indy?

sdp
10-31-2009, 02:25 PM
Except for his girlfriend, whose name I can't remember, from season 2 onwards.

I never really got the whole Kitty/Kurt thing. Sure he had a crush on her at the beginning but they pretty much became good friends with no hints of crushes either way towards the end of season 1.

He tried to date Boom Boom but it didn't work out, in that episode they totally ignored his crush on Kitty. And no, he showed his crush through out the whole show, even after his time with Boom Boom. And no it wasn't just friends, Kitty also after dating Avalanche showed some feelings for Kurt. I don't remember what episodes but it was still there, I remember it bothered me how they would sometimes bring it up and then forget about it.


This couple doesn't make any sense to me. The show was meant to be in continuity with the movies and at the end of 1 he decided to no date MJ because it was too dangerous being the girlfriend of a superhero. So why is it suddenly not dangerous for Indy?

It was meant to be in continuity with the movie but it doesn't really fit in continuity at all, the characters all act way too different and it makes no sense for it to be in continuity. It does take a few elements from the movie but besides that it ignores it and it'd be hard to even try to fit it in continuity so yeah.

Golgo-13
10-31-2009, 06:11 PM
The greatest romance for me in the Marvel cartoons was the one between Rogue and Gambit in the 90's animation series. I'm sorry if this sounds weird but even this one got my hormones pumping!

Just image; a gorgeous woman with curves in all the right places; a southern country girl, living in the house with you, yearning to be touched; yearning for male companionship..and you can't touch her, or you'll die! You could tell they both wanted each other, and you knew they would never hook up....but you still wanted to see it happen.

I loved it! ;)

Ian
11-01-2009, 03:34 PM
When it comes to romance in The Spectacular Spider-Man, I honestly wish there was less of it. While I realize that the characters are teens, and therefore place an undue amount of attention on it, for me, a little of it goes a long way. Plus, it feels to me that it falls into the same trap a lot of shows fall into; the belief that a happy relationship is a boring or uneventful relationship. Personally, I would have been more than happy to have seen Peter and Gwen as a couple during season 2--or heck, if he was going to be with Liz, to get the feeling that the relationship was actually a viable one for both sides, and not something that felt like an obstacle to his being with Gwen.

sdp
11-01-2009, 04:28 PM
I actually found the relationships the most interesting part of Spectacular Spiderman, if it wasn't for it I'd find a lot of episodes "meh". Spectacular Spiderman is one of the most realistic portrayal of real life relationships, and at least in animation only beaten by Undergrads.

Gokou Ruri
11-01-2009, 05:16 PM
When it comes to romance in The Spectacular Spider-Man, I honestly wish there was less of it. While I realize that the characters are teens, and therefore place an undue amount of attention on it, for me, a little of it goes a long way. Plus, it feels to me that it falls into the same trap a lot of shows fall into; the belief that a happy relationship is a boring or uneventful relationship. Personally, I would have been more than happy to have seen Peter and Gwen as a couple during season 2--or heck, if he was going to be with Liz, to get the feeling that the relationship was actually a viable one for both sides, and not something that felt like an obstacle to his being with Gwen. This is how I feel. It would have been nice if Peter and Gwen hooked up in the beginning of season 2 and gave a new dynamic to the show. Then perhaps have Peter reveal to her that he's Spider-Man and offer an even more interesting dynamic to it. Instead, they kind of just drew it out as long as they could and threw Liz into the mix to stretch it out more. It wouldn't be as bad if anything actually of substance actually came out of it, but Liz felt like a device to waste time considering they really only show her go on one date with Peter in their whole relationship.

carnage89
11-01-2009, 05:45 PM
I think Greg will hook Peter & Gwen in season 5 so the first DVD would be The Death Of Gwen Stacy. In season 3 Harry obviously will be in the way of them both getting together.

kid rabbit
11-01-2009, 09:13 PM
I think spectacular spider man did a better job with the Peter/Gwen romance than even the comics
I've read some essentials and it felt like they were estrange for most of the story s and started dating out of nowhere
maybe it was because in her first appearance she was sort of a royal pain
(nobody ignores Gwen Stacy) actual quote from the comic

suss2it
11-01-2009, 09:46 PM
I never really got the whole Kitty/Kurt thing. Sure he had a crush on her at the beginning but they pretty much became good friends with no hints of crushes either way towards the end of season 1.

I remember in the christmas episode Kurt kept trying to get Kitty under a mistletoe to kiss her, which was in season 2.

Anwar
11-01-2009, 11:32 PM
To be honest I'm hoping that Weisman will have Peter and Gwen get together either early into S3 or halfway through, subverting the cliche "get together at the end" type thing.

W.C.Reaf
11-02-2009, 05:08 PM
I remember in the christmas episode Kurt kept trying to get Kitty under a mistletoe to kiss her, which was in season 2.

I stand corrected.

I'd completely forgotten about that moment, and it's in one of my favourite eps as well. :o

cradleman
11-04-2009, 01:16 AM
My favorite of those posted was the Lance/Kitty relationship, maybe because i have always loved Shadowcat. Either way, it was totally believable, and very cute and funny too. great stuff. Evo's Scott and Jean was also a thing of beauty, easily the best romance between the characters i can think of, including the comics. If Peter/Gwen ever get together in TSSM, though, that will top my list for sure. they are AWESOME together.

SpideyFan914
11-04-2009, 07:33 PM
My list:

1. Peter/Gwen (TSSM)- Seriously, TSSM is the just about the only show that consistently interests me in the romances. Usually, they bore me to death, but Weisman actually does it right!

2. Gambit/Rogue (TAS)- For the reasons already mentioned (except for the horny one).

3. Peter/Liz (TSSM)- Hypocrisy? I think not! I saw it as waaaaaaaaay more than just another obstacle! Peter was the first person to ever treat Liz as a true friend (Sally? Pfft....), and, though she had a hard time surrendering her popularity for it, she actually did! But the conflict was, though Liz truly loved Peter, Peter did not truly love Liz.... And the breakup? I expected it to be painful (especially as they begun falling into cliches.... "You're breaking up with me?"), but afterwards, I was literally gaping!

4. Peter/Felicia (TSSM)- Again, it's moreso on Black Cat's part, but still, it's interesting. She has this little crush on Spider-Man, and then.... Opening Night....

5. Peter/Felicia (TAS)- Y'know, I never really thought about that much, but.... You guys are right - they did have chemistry!

6. Rand/Sally (TSSM)- I couldn't resist.

7. Peter/Naoko/Gobby/MJ (SMU)- Though it's been a while since I saw it, I do recall loving this show despite the bad reviews, and the whole Gobby storyline is one of the biggest things which stick out in my memory.

8. Mark/MJ (TSSM)- Yes, I know, it's becoming overkill. But still, this relationship was pretty well done - the two characters who are supposedly above "petty high school relationships" fall for each other, and then the one turns into Molten Man.

9. Eddie/Ashley (TAS)- Surprised this one hasn't been mentioned. Venom falls in love. Wow.

10. Norman/Gwen (TSSM)- I'M KIDDING!!!!! I'M KIDDING!!!!! Sheesh.... You don't take out the pitchforks and torches every time I make a little joke....

Yeah, I've essentially listed all the ones I like (I'm usually either indifferent, or find them annoying), though I do have a soft spot for Norin/Shallah (SS), John/Redhead-girl (SMU), Blade/Terry (TAS), and Morbius/Felicia (TAS) as well. Haven't seen Hulk, Iron Man, FF, or Avengers series, though.

What? No Evo? Is this a typo? Just wanna say - that is not a typo. I loved Evo, but seriously, the relationships in that were really boring and way too shippie for my tastes....