"WWE Armageddon" Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

The stars of SmackDown! will come to you live on pay-per-view from the Dunkin Donuts Center in Providence, RI for the final WWE PPV of the year, Armageddon. It may very well be armageddon for Randy Orton when he and The Undertaker meet in the Hell in a Cell in what will most likely be the cap to their big conflict that goes back all the way back to before WrestleMania 21.

Also tonight, it will be Champions vs. Champions when RAW's World Tag Team Champions Big Show & Kane show up to take on Batista & Rey Mysterio. The Best of Seven Series may be decided tonight with Booker T leading Chris Benoit 3-0 and the Cruiserweight Championship will be on the line as well.

"Tune in" to WWE.com at 7:30 p.m. ET for a special live edition of HEAT (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=2008400#post2008400)!


http://www.wwe.com/content/media/touts/feature/29062/1733202

Hell In a Cell
The Undertaker vs. Randy Orton with "Cowboy" Bob Orton

SmackDown! vs. RAW - Champions vs. Champions
WWE Tag Champions Rey Mysterio & World Champion Batista vs. World Tag Champions Big Show & Kane

Best of Seven Series for the United States Championship: Match Four
*Booker 3, Benoit 0
Chris Benoit vs. vs. Booker T with Sharmell

MNM with Melina vs. The Mexicools (Psicosis & Super Crazy)

Matt Hardy vs. JBL with Jillian

Cruiserweight Championship
Juventud vs. Kid Kash



Please remember this thread is to talk about the EVENT. To talk about your picks, go to the Prediction Thread (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=156768). This includes how you did should you deem it necessary (it's not). This is not the place for "I've gotten two right" type posts.

[VCXZX]

I know it hasn't ended yet, but here's the latest foray into crappy booking and stupid decisions that Vince etal has made.


"Josh was at the Friendly Tap, which is Tim White's bar. They had Tim portrayed as an old drunk who wouldn't speak. Aha, but Tim White had a career ending shoulder injury in a hell in a cell match with HHH vs. Chris Jericho. The story is Hell in a Cell ruins lives. Hell in a Cell ruined his life. His wife left him. His family doesn't talk to him. His friends don't talk to him. Yes, Tim had to say he has irritable bowel syndrome. Well, you know when you sign up you check your dignity at the door. Tim White pulled out a rifle and they are pretending he's committing suicide. A gunshot went off."
To say this was said to be poorly recieved is an understatement. Its things like this that take away from the great wrestling and into the bad writing that has plagued the WWE.

No wonder TNA won the RSPW award for best promotion this year. And WWE Worst Promotion.

[Spike Mcdougal]

Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Patrick Bateman]

Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!! Go Taker!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D UGH. How can they keep doing this? For the love of god, WWE keep burying the future of their company in an effort to get some injury prone old fart who's his own biggest mark over. I f'ing HATE Mark Calloway. I HATE him. Honestly, I wish he'd just die or be parylized as it's the only way guys like Randy Orton will ever get ahead on SmackDown. Randy Orton, John Cena, Rob Van Dam, Kane, they've all been jobbed to this ******* in matches where victory would do a hell of alot more for their careers than it'd do for his, all because he buys his own hype and thinks he's something great when he's really just some big oaf who knows 3 moves and can roll his eyes in the back of his head. He's all hype and no skill. Man this pisses me off. I don't know why people bad mouth Triple H when this piece of **** is 100 times worse.

As for Tim White committing suicide - WHAT THE F%$!!!!!!

[VCXZX]

Aside from the main event, the only thing worth seeing here is Benoit/Booker. Their chemistry continued to click.

And the Cruiserweight division recieved more bad news as the crowd pooped on their match big-time. You never would see the Impact Zone do that to an X-divsion match. At least Kash can make things work now.

Batista/Mysterio should've won. Which makes their win last week even more nonsenical. At least the tag titles weren't on the line.

Orton should've won as well. He's supposed to be the top Smackdown guy next year, and he lost. Unless the two have a rematch, another crappy booking decision.

[Patrick Bateman]

Orton should've won as well. He's supposed to be the top Smackdown guy next year, and he lost. Unless the two have a rematch, another crappy booking decision. Typical WWE. They don't care about what wrestling fans want. They only care about what Vince wants to see - which is NEVER what we want to see.

[Djm912]

A depushed against MNM in a tag team match that meant absolutely Jacq Shiza, a bunch of pathetic idiotic brainwashed WWE fans booing the cruiserweight title match, an absolutely deplorable interview segment that's right up there with Katie Vick.

This was an utterly crappy PPV. Glad I didn't order it. Not even for the oustanding Booker/Benoit match.


And do not get me started on the Undertaker.

[krazymed]

I hope USA cancels Raw after that suicide angle. There was no reason to do it. No one benefitted from it. I don't understand why WWE is in such an arrogant mood to be exploiting death for angles after one of their top guys died in a hotel room less than one month ago. What is wrong with them?

[Zero Signal]

As has been happening more often lately, I'm left sitting here in disbelief that I paid $35 for this. Sure, there were some good things, but the bad outweighed by alot.

--JBL squashed the everloving crap out of Matt Hardy. The rumor going around is that Matt refused to take a chokeslam from 'Taker at the end of Survivor Series, so he has big time heat in the back and this was a way to humiliate him. If true, that's just pathetic. Hardy is big time over (look at how he got more Taboo Tuesday vots than even Rey Mysterio) and they job him out to make a point. So stupid.

--MNM/Mexicools was a pretty decent match. Nitro is pretty good in the ring, and he really clicks with Mercury. Their coats were hilarious with the red "MNM" LED lights. The whole thing was kinda overbooked, but that's been the norm lately. This match was really hurt by the tag titles being taken away for no reason. Why should anybody care? It wasn't even a #1 Contender's match. More dumb booking by the crackheads at WWE.

--Booker T and Chris Benoit put on the match of the night. It had it's slow moments, but the ending was really tense with tons of near-falls. Benoit picked up the big win, and I guess they're going for the Boston comeback special.

--The Boogeyman crap is just insulting. He squashes a former Cruiserweight champion (again) and wastes PPV time. I couldn't believe my eyes when he suddenly used voodoo magic or something to turn Santa's presents into worms. This is so bad I miss Katie Vick.

--The Lashley match would have been better if there had been some build, or even an announcement. The crowd popped for the Dominator, but that's about it. It's sad to see Burchill jobbed out again, since he's really talented. Typical Smackdown match.

--The whole Tim White thing was one of the most horrible things I can think of WWE doing in a while. In a company that's used beastiality, necro, zombies, burn victims, stutterers, poisonous snakes, terrorism, murder, racism, phantom hand births, and sexism as a way to get ratings I shouldn't be surprised that suicide was next. It's things like this that make me question why I even watch, and it's things like this and Boogeyman that keep any new people from watching something so bad.

--Juventud and Kid Kash played to a dead crowd, and who could blame them? After being spoonfed such stupid and tasteless angles, I'd be in a state of shock as well. There's a part of me that thinks the Tim White storyline was placed before the Cruiserweight match on purpose, to kill any crowd momentum they might get. I've noticed how the Cruiserweights were taken off tv and put online, and I've also noticed how any time there's something really dumb or offensive it's usually placed right before the cruiserweights. It can't be a coincidence after happening so often. Petty good match, and Kash does a sick brainbuster.

--The Raw/Smackdown tag match was beyond stupid. They put the tag belts on an injured man (killing the heat for the MNM match earlier) just so his team could lose? That.Makes.No.Sense. After being punked by Raw for so long, you'd think Smackdown would come out on top here. But instead, they kill all of Mysterio's momentum by jobbing him out clean. I marvel at the stupidity of this company sometimes.

--The Hell In a Cell match itself was pretty good, until the ending. What is wrong with this company? There was no reason for Undertaker to go over in this one, not one reason. Superman Zombie 'Taker overcomes all the odds again to pull out an "amazing" victory to the complete apathy of the crowd (I especially liked the shot of him posing on the cell while in the background people were turned away and silently filing out the doors). Like many others, I'm sick to death of Mark Calloway and his backstage politics. He's as bad for the business as Hogan, and when you let the employees start running the company it's only a mtter of time before you're done (see: WCW). The Undertaker character is already over, and having him win here hurt Orton's position. For a man that's supposed to be the future of the company, in the marks' eyes he's a little loser that can't win a single match. For the love of God, Vince, please make Mark retire before he ruins you.

All in all, Smackdown is in serious trouble. I understand that the death of Eddie Guerrero threw all of their plans out of wack, but it's time to get back into the game. The show is terrible now, with an insane amount of mind-numbingly stupid storylines and gimmicks running rampant. There's a reason people think it's the B Show, and as long as they book it that way it will be. There's plenty of talent to make the show great and it's time the writers stepped it up.

I voted * and 1/2. 1/2 * for Benoit, 1/2 * for Juventud/Kash trying to salvage a good match, and 1/2 * for Randy selling like crazy and pulling something decent out of a senior citizen.

[Spike Mcdougal]

JBL squashed the everloving crap out of Matt Hardy. The rumor going around is that Matt refused to take a chokeslam from 'Taker at the end of Survivor Series, so he has big time heat in the back and this was a way to humiliate him. If true, that's just pathetic. Hardy is big time over (look at how he got more Taboo Tuesday vots than even Rey Mysterio) and they job him out to make a point. So stupid.


I have my own opinions about Hardy and I may be the only person left in the world who still likes Taker but yes that is stupid

[Patrick Bateman]

Has anyone read the WrestleCrap book "The Death of WCW"? Shocking how many comparisons you can draw between 2000-2001 WCW and the current WWE product. Mark Calloway is the new Hulk Hogan. He's a cancer that will kill SmackDown. Vince needs to stop trying to be Mr. Tough Guy with all his other employees then turning around and giving this assclown whatever he wants as if he's afraid of the man's gimmick. Vince owns his ass just like everyone else's. It's time he acts like it.

*remembers Brock Lesnar beating Undertaker's old ass in a Hell in a Cell*

:evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:

[langden alger]

I have my own opinions about Hardy and I may be the only person left in the world who still likes Taker but yes that is stupidyou've got another long-time taker fan here too. and for the rest who are really broken up about randy losing, you should feel alot better after he takes the world title off batista in the very near future...

[prodigal]

LOL Tim White.

That is the only thing I can say

[FireStarterLE]

Except for the Benoit/Booker T match (which was the best match of the entire thing) this about sums up last night


It was just a compilation of bad matches, and bad gimmicks. Basically everything that's wrong with Smackdown and WWE booking as a whole right now on display for all to see.
* one star, for that match only (i would give it 5 stars, but that would make the PPV look good, which it wasn't)

[Patrick Bateman]

you've got another long-time taker fan here too. and for the rest who are really broken up about randy losing, you should feel alot better after he takes the world title off batista in the very near future... That doesn't make it any better. He basically just lost all of his heat. He lost to Undertaker at WrestleMania (when he should have gone over), and now again in Hell in a Cell. What the hell is Taker getting out of this?

And long time fan or no, shouldn't matter. I'm a long time Steve Austin fan, but when they put him over guys who they're trying to build up while he's already past his prime, it pisses me off all the same. Just because he has fans doesn't mean that burying the future of the company to make him look good is a smart move.

Again I say, I hope for a Mark Calloway tribute edition of RAW soon. I won't watch it, but at least it'll mean he croaked.

[EinBebop]

Okay, I do think the Tim White thing was stupid. But bad taste? Come on! You do know that they've admitted and continue to admit that wrestling is fake, right? Or are you offended by all depictions of death? '24' must make you crazy!!

[and2]

Undertaker might not be your type, but the man can wrestle a great NWA style brawl. Just because he cant jump over 3 tables and do 3 SSPs in 5 seconds doesnt mean he sucks. Also, Udertaker lost to Randy enough this year, Orton also got the upper hand all through smackdown. Ohyes, after losing to the undertaker John Cenas career has gone down the drain and will never recover from it, oh the humanity, will cena even be able to get on heat?. Kane will never be the same again, he will be luck to get the tag titles, and RVD.......well he doesnt want to adapt to the WWE style and cant tell a story in the ring so a loss to taker didnt change anything.

Undertaker winning at mania is a given because that is really one of the most sacred WWE streaks. When Randy lost to taker at mania he went on to be the top heel on SD so i'm sure he can rebound from this, oh yeah and hes winning the rumble.


Quote:Typical WWE. They don't care about what wrestling fans want. They only care about what Vince wants to see - which is NEVER what we want to see.



Maybe what the smarks wanted to see, but the marks wanted taker to win. I dont think Vince would be stupid enought to go against the fans, wich are in a majority marks.

Quote:He basically just lost all of his heat


No he didnt, he lost to the Undertaker in HIAC after a hard fought match and was even able to tombstone him. He will probably have this month off and return at the rumble to a good reaction and become the top heel on his way to a world title win.



Quote:Has anyone read the WrestleCrap book "The Death of WCW"? Shocking how many comparisons you can draw between 2000-2001 WCW and the current WWE product. Mark Calloway is the new Hulk Hogan. He's a cancer that will kill SmackDown. Vince needs to stop trying to be Mr. Tough Guy with all his other employees then turning around and giving this assclown whatever he wants as if he's afraid of the man's gimmick. Vince owns his ass just like everyone else's. It's time he acts like it.



Mark is a veteran who has been with WWE for over 15 years, a company loyalist and a huge star, of course he will get special treatment. The only difference between WCW in its dying days and WWE is that: WWE has good storylines, wrestling and is still able to pull out decent ratings. WWE at its worst is better than WCW at its worst.




The ref killing himself was a horrible segment though, and the HIAC was decent but nothing special. Booker/Benoit was MOTN

[Patrick Bateman]

Undertaker might not be your type, but the man can wrestle a great NWA style brawl. Just because he cant jump over 3 tables and do 3 SSPs in 5 seconds doesnt mean he sucks. I'll just stop quoting right there. When did I say anything about high flying spotfests when I said that he was a garbage wrestler? I'm so sick of that. If someone says that some slow out of shape bastard can't wrestle, one of his fanboys comes in and ASSUMES that you're some TNA mark. No? You know what I'm a mark of? Good WRESTLING. If Vince McMahon had a brain, Chris Benoit and Booker T would be fueding for the World Heavyweight Title, not some midcard title. I think Triple H is a fantastic wrestler and does he do any of that highflying crap? Didn't think so. The difference is that Triple H knows more about telling a story in the ring other than "Punch, punch, no-sell my opponent's punch, punch again."

As far as big men wrestlers go, JBL is leagues ahead of Undertaker. He may not be popular because he's not got some flashy character or a cool look, but the man can wrestle.

Undertaker IS killing SmackDown, and Orton DID lose his heat. He got a ton of buildup and a win could have sent him further down the path to being the top guy. Now, this loss will have him starting over from scratch again. And for what? So this old codger can make himself look good?

Also, the comment you made about Rob Van Dam made you sound like a jackass. Do you really think that if he'd said "Oh sure Mr. McMahon, I'll adapt to the WWE style" that it would have gotten him a win over Taker in that Hardcore Title match? Please. You want to know why Rob Van Dam won't adapt to the WWE style? Look at Kid Kash. He was a crowd pleaser and fan favorite in ECW, and in WWE he's drawing "boring" and "end this match" chants because he "adapted".

[Deadman]

you've got another long-time taker fan here too. and for the rest who are really broken up about randy losing, you should feel alot better after he takes the world title off batista in the very near future...i think hes pretty cool but my name isnt named after him. when i changed my name ton this i dident even know he was called that.

[sag_2002]

Sounds like Wrestlecrap jumped the gun on the 2005 Gooker award vote. Tim White killing himself is definately a late addition. Nice one, writer monkeys. (tm Online Onslaught)

[James Bester]

Again I say, I hope for a Mark Calloway tribute edition of RAW soon. I won't watch it, but at least it'll mean he croaked. Yeah, let's wish death upon a guy just because he won a single freakin match. Look, I really hate Chris Masters, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna wish death upon him. And unlike Hulk Hogan, Taker can actually still wrestle. I agree with you that Orton should have gone over, but seriously, it's just one match. Taker's been losing to this guy all Summer, and he finally got payback. I don't see this having any effect whatsoever on the Orton/Batista title feud coming up.


Undertaker IS killing SmackDown, and Orton DID lose his heat.What heat? The crowd has had little reaction to Orton ever since his dad returned. What Orton needs to do is get rid of his dad and find a new feud to get some real heel heat.

And how can Undertaker be killing Smackdown! when he barely shows up there in the first place?

[Patrick Bateman]

Yeah, let's wish death upon a guy just because he won a single freakin match. Look, I really hate Chris Masters, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna wish death upon him. And unlike Hulk Hogan, Taker can actually still wrestle. I agree with you that Orton should have gone over, but seriously, it's just one match. Taker's been losing to this guy all Summer, and he finally got payback. I don't see this having any effect whatsoever on the Orton/Batista title feud coming up.

What heat? The crowd has had little reaction to Orton ever since his dad returned. What Orton needs to do is get rid of his dad and find a new feud to get some real heel heat.

And how can Undertaker be killing Smackdown! when he barely shows up there in the first place? That's exactly how he's ruining it. He barely shows up yet they still waste 15 minutes of airtime on his spooky lights and druids when the man himself never even shows. It's ludicrous.

And yeah, I'll withdraw the death statement. I just get so angry with him. In the last three years he's rolled over so many guys who could really use a boost, but gets no more popular because his popularity is peaked. He needs to try to help get the young bucks over in the way guys like Sting and Scott Hall have been known to do, not use his backstage power to make himself look invincible. Hell, we all saw Survivor Series. They fed him virtually the entire SmackDown locker room. He just seems to me like someone who takes who he is on-screen far too seriously.

The next time RAW or SmackDown rolls into my city, I'll be the guy you see holding the dry-erase board (because the censoring WWE Nazis would take a pre-written sign) that reads "CALLOWAY FEARS RANDY ORTON".

[and2]

Nice to know you appreciate JBL, the man is a great wrestler.


They use 15 minutes on him when he has a feud wich ussualy always gets a lot of heat and helps out the ppv buys, when he isnt there its the same show, just without the undertaker, just like raw is the same with or without HHH. If anything friday nights is killing smackdown. Orton had dominated the feud since mania, and theres talk hes going to win the rumble. A loss to undertaker wasnt that bad because orton looked good in the match (tombstone, the spot where taker was down for a long time but the ref was knocked out, the RKO of the ropes).



/Also, the comment you made about Rob Van Dam made you sound like a jackass. Do you really think that if he'd said "Oh sure Mr. McMahon, I'll adapt to the WWE style" that it would have gotten him a win over Taker in that Hardcore Title match? Please. You want to know why Rob Van Dam won't adapt to the WWE style? Look at Kid Kash. He was a crowd pleaser and fan favorite in ECW, and in WWE he's drawing "boring" and "end this match" chants because he "adapted".



The crowd booed for other reason (the feud had close to zero build up, they wanted to see the HIAC, the segment with the ref). If RVD wants to do what he did in ECW then he should go out to CZW, he just doesnt want to adapt and thinks Vince will just let him do whatever the hell he wants because hes RVD. A lot of other people have adapted and done well, why wont he do it?

[Tapout]

The crowd booed for other reason (the feud had close to zero build up, they wanted to see the HIAC, the segment with the ref). If RVD wants to do what he did in ECW then he should go out to CZW, he just doesnt want to adapt and thinks Vince will just let him do whatever the hell he wants because hes RVD. A lot of other people have adapted and done well, why wont he do it?And a lot of people have adapted and floundered. Rhino was one of ECW's biggest stars, went to WWE, changed his style, broke his neck for them, and was wasted. Now he's one of TNA's biggest stars. The same could be said for basically every cruiserweight ever, minus Benoit, Gurerrero, and Jericho, who haven't been cruiserweights since they left WCW.

[and2]

Cruiserweights is a different story as WWE doesnt care about them one bit.


You hit the nail with Ryno though, and you could add Tajiri, Venis, Helms(though I still hope he gets a push soon) etc.

[SirLemming]

I saw it tonight, and wow... That Tim White thing. Boy. Don't know what to think about that. I thought they were going to pan over and show him having shot something else, but nope.

But boy, it sure was hilarious as the ultimate example of how a "Nonetheless" from Michael Cole can completely clean the slate for the commentators.



I wonder if referee suicide will be a feature in the next game.

[The Penguin]

I'll be very interested to see how SmackDown! addresses this whole Tim White thing in a couple weeks (I believe this Friday is a 2005 special). I hate not being able to decide for myself. I'm sure SmackDown! won't show it, but I can't believe they "killed" Tim White. It seems so pointless. WWE always used to proclaim there was no rape and murder when critics would go after them, but they seem to be straying away from that "pride" they used to have.

I found this about it on the net in my occasional rumor glancing session. I got it from Rajah (http://rajah.com/base/node/4501), but I expect you can find it many places. The splash page of FriendlyTap.com (http://www.friendlytap.com/) has a big question mark.


Update on the Tim White 'Suicide' Angle

John Fischer sent the following:

I emailed the webmaster of Friendlytap.com (White's bar) about Tim White. This is the response I got:

Hello, thank you for your inquiry about the Armageddon PPV incident involving Tim White. In the world of professional wrestling, nothing is what it seems. Did Tim White actually die in "real life?" No. Did his wrestling persona die on WWE television? This is unknown.

What is known is that Tim White does what everyone in society does. His job.

Tim has been a loyal employee of World Wrestling Entertainment, Inc. for over 20 years and it is a good thing to get camera time in a vast sea of entertainers.

Did morals play a part in Tim's decision. We, and he, believe so. Unfortunately, with the recent passing of WWE Superstar (and friend of Tim White) Eddie Guerrero, people have been outraged at what transpired. Please be aware, that sometimes storylines are created over a long period of time. Just because this angle happened after the death of Eddie Guerrero doesn't mean that Tim or the WWE is disrespecting his memory.

The WWE produces television. Please be aware, that sometime things happen beyond the realm of television which doesn't change the course of the product. If a show is based on a murderer and a character passes away in real life, they do not re-write it. They write that character out of the story and the show goes on. Is this cold and heartless? No. It may be sad to the fans, but it doesn't take away from the product.

If this happened on a show like CSI and an actor passed away in real life, they will not re-write the show and turn it into a program about everything but death. It is just the natural course of events that transpire throughout the course of television history.

Please be aware that the WWE product is just television and entertainment. It's just up to the fans to decide how far they want to see into the product.

While we are not here to defend the actions that happened on the Pay Per View, we support Tim's decision in the way he portrays his character on television.

Thank you for your inquiries,
webmaster@friendlytap.com