Crime rate in Gotham AFTER batman retired?

[ITDEFX]

makes you wonder, from the rebirth episode and batman freeing the girl from the gang in the hanger using his future suit. I seriously doubt that him pointing a gun at someone OR his health would stop Bruce from going after the rogues gallery unless all of them were captured, died, or stopped being evil.

Between that and the time Terri took over, what do you think crime was like in Gotham after batman stepped down for 20 some years? I am sure the police could handle thugs with no problems, the mob was a thing of the past (since batman drove them out)..and I don't think supervillians were around til the new batman showed up.

what do you guys think?

[Gorthaur]

On the very lowest, down-to-earth, close-to-the-people level, you have the Jokerz and other street gangs running relatively unchecked. On the top of society, mega-corporations and corrupt businessmen like Derek Powers hold the reins. The government is rotten and shady, and the police are largely, save for a few notable and noble exceptions, corrupt. Amidst all this, the downtrodden little people still try to scrape together a living.

Make no mistake, Gotham is still a bad place.

[ITDEFX]

so you think bruce *should* have retired ? I mean its kinda stupid he pissed off his crew that they left him.

[sdp]

bruce should have retired, he was no longer able to be batman, he realized it the day he picked up the gun, he couldn't have gone much longer without being killed or doing something he regreted.

I think as you see BB crime is pretty high and natural in the BB gotham, i do think that before the rebirth flash back, most of his rougues gallery also had a final confrontation like the ROTJ flashback, plus they also aged giving them the same reasons to retire as batman. That is why you mostly don't see old rogues in BB.

[Trevor Balena]

Let's not forget about the JLU. Superman and the League could have swept in to take care of any occaisonal metahuman threat that popped up in Gothem between the time Bruce retired and the time Terry appeared.

[ITDEFX]

something tells me that bruce or barbra would not let the JLU mess around in gotham. Mostly because of pride and to let the world know that they can take care of there city without outside help.

[Trevor Balena]

something tells me that bruce or barbra would not let the JLU mess around in gotham. Mostly because of pride and to let the world know that they can take care of there city without outside help.I don't think it's an issue of pride. Bruce was retired; do you really think he'd let a supervillain run loose in Gotham if there was a chance the League could do something about it? If he was still active, maybe, but not during those intervening years.

And I don't think Barbara would have had much say in it, either. How many times do you think James Gordon was consulted when the League of our time needed to tackle a problem in Gotham?

[Stewie]

I'd bet that he had no great an effect on statistical rates. In a city that large it would be difficult. Even for Batman. Even when Bruce was in his prime Batman didn't seem to be able vanquish crime.

Batman Beyond seemed to present Gotham as a lawless town where crime was in your face. Roving gangs and such. Where as B:TAS gave me the impression that it may have been everywhere, but it wasn't necessarily a part of life for most people.

I think Batman was symbolic. He didn't make it all that much safer for the average citizen to walk down a dark alley, but he made people brave enough to at least walk outside. His existence didn't convince many criminals to find legal ways of doing business, but he did make them fear justice.

So I don't think that crime rates necessarily jumped when he retired. Crime probably just seemed worse. Perceptions would have changed. It's like when a star football player retires or is injured (doesn't play for some reason). Often enough, the team does just as well if not better.

[FALLEN ELDOR]

No I can't accept that. Batman HAD to have an effect on street crime its only logical. That's why Gotham saw an increase in the pajama variety of villainy and organized crime...Batman WAS making a difference on one level, unfortunately he had an effect that increased the not so ordinary criminals. Once Batman was eliminated Street crime would have gone up, and it apparently did with all the street gangs in Batman beyond. Meta human crimes went down because of the Justice League. Once Terry became batman again he attracted more of the pajama pals.


On the very lowest, down-to-earth, close-to-the-people level, you have the Jokerz and other street gangs running relatively unchecked. On the top of society, mega-corporations and corrupt businessmen like Derek Powers hold the reins. The government is rotten and shady, and the police are largely, save for a few notable and noble exceptions, corrupt. Amidst all this, the downtrodden little people still try to scrape together a living.

Make no mistake, Gotham is still a bad place.

The "reason" Bruce stopped being batman (as dramatic as it was!) always came off to me as unbelievable for that very reason! Kingdom Come and DKR showed the future of batman and Gotham was much more believable. That's one of the reasons I never liked BB...But now if Bruce knew he would be replaced it somehow makes a little more sense. JL really fixed my biggest concern with Batman Beyond. I'm ready to re watch that box set come March.


bruce should have retired, he was no longer able to be batman, he realized it the day he picked up the gun, he couldn't have gone much longer without being killed or doing something he regreted.



He NEVER would have left Gotham Batmanless until he won his war on crime.
Bruce may not have been able to physically patrol, but he would have recruited agents to his cause or had mechanical robots patrol Gotham like in Kingdom Come and DKR.

[Anwar]

I dunno, it was kind of creepy seeing how Batman turned Gotham into a facist police state. At least with BB he didn't turn into a dictator.


Of course, DKR was great, except for the part with Supes being a government pawn and the reason why there were little to no heroes around anymore. That was bad (althought I do understand Miller's reasoning behind it).

[Revelator]

[QUOTE] The "reason" Bruce stopped being batman (as dramatic as it was!) always came off to me as unbelievable for that very reason! ...That's one of the reasons I never liked BB...But now if Bruce knew he would be replaced it somehow makes a little more sense. JL really fixed my biggest concern with Batman Beyond.
I don't buy this. The scene in Rebirth was more convincing than any other reason given for Batman's retirement. It made the point that as Batman Bruce could no longer rely on his body, and perhaps not even on his own morals when his life was truly in danger. Picking up that gun and nearly firing it was one of the most deeply humilating, shaming and traumatic events in Bruce's life. He knew that if he continued being Batman, the circumstances that led to him picking up the gun would not only remain--they would intensify, because all the technology in the world could not save him. And picking up the gun was doubly wounding because it would have surely reminded him of Tim Drake shooting the Joker, and doubly reinforced just how close he had come to compromising himself. Retiring for Bruce must have been as painful as cutting off his arm, but stepping down took great wisdom and self-control on his part--an assertion of self-control designed to prevent him from losing self-control in battle.


He NEVER would have left Gotham Batmanless until he won his war on crime. Why do you presume Batman thinks he could win an unwinnable war? Winning the war on crime is even less feasible than winning the war of terrorism, and I've never seen any proof that Bruce thought he could eventually triumph. And if after his heart attack Bruce had continued fighting crime in his weakened state, he'd have left Gotham Batmanless soon anyway.


Bruce may not have been able to physically patrol, but he would have recruited agents to his cause or had mechanical robots patrol Gotham like in Kingdom Come and DKR. Agents: at the point of Rebirth, Batman had driven away most of his closest allies and wasn't in the mood to meet new people. Given what had happened to Tim, it's doubtful that he would wanted or pressured anyone to take up that sort of life anyway, and his guilt is evident in ROTJ. Tim was retired, Alfred was perhaps dead, Dick had moved away, Barbara had left him and gone to work for the police, and Jim Gordon was possibly dead or estranged from him. Not only was Bruce feeling defeated from his lapse of conduct in Rebirth, but he was also already demoralized by being alone and living in emotional isolation. The idea that he would have grown depressed and apathetic and become a recluse, shutting away an ungrateful world and cutting himself off from further human contact, seems to me psychologically realistic, valid and convincing.
As for robots: I don't think Batman is really one for such a second-hand, antiseptic and authoritarian approach. He's someone who needs to be out there, on the streets. Yes, he monitors Terry, but he can live far more vicariously through Terry's eyes than by watching a bunch of flying tin cans that lack anything resembling the human touch that made Batman a force that he was.

[Squall]

Not only did the crime rate in Gotham go up between Bruce's and Terry's turns at being Batman, but I also think that the crime rate in Gotham went up when Batman joined the Justice League. Why? He was usually away on the Watchtower or in Atlantis or Gorilla City or something, saving the planet. Not much time to return to Gotham and bully gangsters in those years.

(Which reminds me of a neat scene in one of the Justice League Adventures comics. I don't remember the situation, but Flash (I think) needed some help, and he contacted Batman, who helped him via phone... while he was fighting the Penguin and his goons in Gotham. :p )

[ITDEFX]

Well his away time from Gotham probibly increased local crime. I really don't see anyone being "Afraid" of batgirl. Nightwing might have stayed for awhile but not for long. Being Batman 95% of the time was probibly the reason why he couldn't hold on to Wayne Enterprises for very long in the near future. After the Wayne/powers merger, I'm suprised that powers didn't find out about wayne's private expenses to fund batman.

[raykremer]

Rule of comics: supervillians only pop up when there's a superhero around to thwart them.

[ITDEFX]

Rule of comics: supervillians only pop up when there's a superhero around to thwart them.
doh..so true.

[FALLEN ELDOR]

I don't buy this. The scene in Rebirth was more convincing than any other reason given for Batman's retirement. It made the point that as Batman Bruce could no longer rely on his body, and perhaps not even on his own morals when his life was truly in danger. Picking up that gun and nearly firing it was one of the most deeply humilating, shaming and traumatic events in Bruce's life. He knew that if he continued being Batman, the circumstances that led to him picking up the gun would not only remain--they would intensify, because all the technology in the world could not save him. And picking up the gun was doubly wounding because it would have surely reminded him of Tim Drake shooting the Joker, and doubly reinforced just how close he had come to compromising himself. Retiring for Bruce must have been as painful as cutting off his arm, but stepping down took great wisdom and self-control on his part--an assertion of self-control designed to prevent him from losing self-control in battle.

I certainly don't mean to trivialize that moment, it definitely was life altering and that emotional impact I DO realize. My objection is that he wouldn't leave his city unprotected. When he gave up the mantle he broke his promise to his parents and that's something more damming in his mind then killing a man in the line of duty...



Why do you presume Batman thinks he could win an unwinnable war? Winning the war on crime is even less feasible than winning the war of terrorism, and I've never seen any proof that Bruce thought he could eventually triumph. And if after his heart attack Bruce had continued fighting crime in his weakened state, he'd have left Gotham Batmanless soon anyway.

It's not about victory, it's about the fight, you know the old saying "if good men do nothing" yadda, yadda, yadda. Why do you think he accepted Dick as Robin, or Tim (or Jason and Stephanie in the comics) He knows Gotham City needs Batman today and a 100 years from now...Before JL had retconed it, he abandoned Gotham and his oath to his parents...And that's completely out of character as far as I'm concerned! I hated batman Beyond for that...But like I said, Justice League fixed that, now I can accept that he retires in Rebirth knowing someone else will be the Batman that Gotham City needs.



Agents: at the point of Rebirth, Batman had driven away most of his closest allies and wasn't in the mood to meet new people. Given what had happened to Tim, it's doubtful that he would wanted or pressured anyone to take up that sort of life anyway, and his guilt is evident in ROTJ. Tim was retired, Alfred was perhaps dead, Dick had moved away, Barbara had left him and gone to work for the police, and Jim Gordon was possibly dead or estranged from him. Not only was Bruce feeling defeated from his lapse of conduct in Rebirth, but he was also already demoralized by being alone and living in emotional isolation. The idea that he would have grown depressed and apathetic and become a recluse, shutting away an ungrateful world and cutting himself off from further human contact, seems to me psychologically realistic, valid and convincing.

For a normal man...yes, I'd have to agree. But we are talking about a psycho who dresses as a bat to fight crime and calls him self Batman in his head!!!!!! As Jim Cary once said "obsessed much?!?" He would have NEVER given up on his Oath to his parents...Especially after Andrea...Not unless someone else took up being batman...



As for robots: I don't think Batman is really one for such a second-hand, antiseptic and authoritarian approach. He's someone who needs to be out there, on the streets. Yes, he monitors Terry, but he can live far more vicariously through Terry's eyes than by watching a bunch of flying tin cans that lack anything resembling the human touch that made Batman a force that he was.

On the other hand he could see all that human stuff as what made him loose the respect of his "students". A robot does what you tell it and it's feelings never get hurt. It can't betray or leave you...I think that makes perfect sense for someone who has isolated him self from his loved ones but still cares so much about humanity, his city and his parents...Remember that suit from the episode he saved Terry from Inque? Just because he remote controls a robot or two from the cave, doesn't automatically mean he would start acting like Stalin...That I didn't like about Kingdom Come.


Not only did the crime rate in Gotham go up between Bruce's and Terry's turns at being Batman, but I also think that the crime rate in Gotham went up when Batman joined the Justice League. Why? He was usually away on the Watchtower or in Atlantis or Gorilla City or something, saving the planet. Not much time to return to Gotham and bully gangsters in those years.


That's why I always liked the "part timer" bit. The way I figure it, batman just helped the JL on weekends :p


Well his away time from Gotham probibly increased local crime. I really don't see anyone being "Afraid" of batgirl. Nightwing might have stayed for awhile but not for long. Being Batman 95% of the time was probibly the reason why he couldn't hold on to Wayne Enterprises for very long in the near future. After the Wayne/powers merger, I'm suprised that powers didn't find out about wayne's private expenses to fund batman.

I always liked the idea that he was just so independently wealthy that he never needed help from Wayne Tech's money. It makes it more believable...at least to me...