Is Terry really Batman?...

[DR.MID-NITE]

Whereas Bruce Wayne developed his mind and body to become Batman. Terry needs the suit to really become a hero. Now, I am not belittling him. But, without the suit Bruce could still be Batman. While Terry is just another High School student.
What I think made Batman such a popular hero. Was that he had no superpowers and the loss of his parents gives him a singlemindedness to train his mind and body.

[DisneyBoy]

...which is why Terry hs been such a controversial character.

I mean it was one thing to give Batman sidekicks like Batgirl and Robin, with relatively complexe personalities and abilities, but, in my opinion, the whole notion of a teen wearing super suit and calling himself Batman contradicts what the hero is all about. He's a mortal. He's unique. He's not some Green Latern-type hero where rings get passed down to different people. Not that there's anything wrong with GL or the Corps, its just that that isn't what Batman is all about.

There will always be only one Batman. Batman Beyond may have been an interesting look into what might be, but for me, I would rather not accept that as the future of an icon as great as Batman. No matter how much the writers tried to deny it or make us believe otherwise, Terry could never have become "Batman Beyond" without the suit or Bruce. Similarily, I also have a problem with the animated Robin named Tim Drake, who pretty much waltzed off the streets, put on the suit and started doing backflips. At least Dick Grayson took about seven years of training before stepping into his role, amking his abilities much more believeable. But in all seriousness, Terry was never and could never be Batman, no matter how good he might have been. It's a one-man show. That man is Bruce.

[Stupendous Man]

Perhaps your both missing the point. . .

Your both debating wether or not Terry deserved
to be BATMAN.

The interesting thing about Batman Beyond was
not Terry.

The interesting thing about Batman Beyond was
Bruce Wayne.

To catch a glimpse of our hero aged and at the
end of his career.

The point of Batman Beyond, my friends, is that
Bruce Wayne is Batman.

The point of Batman Beyond is that Bruce was
Batman with or without the costume.

The point of Batman Beyond was that what made
Batman - BATMAN was not his physical prowess or
his fighting skills.
As some of you have pointed out Terry was able to
compensate and acquire similar abilities with the suit.
What made Batman - BATMAN was the sharpness of his
mind and his obsession with Justice . His Love for Gotham.
What made BATMAN was his quest.

Old age and withering muscles ... bad back ailing heart -
these did not diminish Bruce because his mind was
strong.

The Point of Batman Beyond was that
BRUCE WAYNE IS STILL BATMAN


Batman Beyond wasnt the story of Terry Macguines...
Batman Beyond is the story of an Aged Bruce Wayne
continuing the never ending battle.

So the answer to your question ..."Is Terry Batman?"

The answer is Bruce Wayne is Batman ..both today
and Beyond

[Calhoun07]

You all say how long it took for Bruce Wayne to train before he could become Batman. We are seeing Terry at the very beginning of his training. Who's to say that in the same number of years it took for Bruce to become Batman that Terry wouldn't also be a worthy Batman successor? I think that you are all judging Terry too quickly and too harshly. No, he wasn't Batman on the level that Bruce was Batman because Terry was a newbie. Bruce Wane wasn't the Batman he is today when he started out, either. I have faith that Terry will continue his training and will seek out the right mentors and that even if he had to carry on the mantle after Bruce's departure, he would be able to.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Calhoun 07
You all say how long it took for Bruce Wayne to train before he could become Batman. We are seeing Terry at the very beginning of his training. Who's to say that in the same number of years it took for Bruce to become Batman that Terry wouldn't also be a worthy Batman successor?



There is a subtle difference Cal :

Bruce trained for years before he became Batman.
Terry is training as Batman. (on the job so to speak)

When Bruce became Batman he was fully in command of his
persona and abilities.

Terry is picking up as he goes along.


Now theres nothing wrong with that .
It makes for interesting stories .

I have nothing against Terry. I enjoy him and his character.
I totally agree that Terry is much more "Spiderman" in tone and
attitude that "Batman".

My question would be :

Whats Terry's motivation to continue as Batman once
Bruce dies?

I know in "Return of the Joker" Terry claims he need to be
Batman to redeem himself for his time in Juvenil Hall .

That really seems like an immature motivation.

We all know Terrys not a bad soul.. and surely in the
adventures we've witnessed alone, hes more than
redeemed himself for stealing hubcaps and spraypainting
on walls as a young teen.

Would he continue being Batman ?

I wonder.

* *

On a side note i agree with you Cal that Terry doesnt get enough credit for bieng a hero in his own right.

I think one could extrapolate that Terry would eventually become an even better hero than some other characters because
his judgement isnt clouded by an obsession with justice or a vendetta against crime. Hes just an everyman doing dangerous work.

[MattL.]

See, in my view I have no problems with Terry because when I look at the character what I see is basically what happens when you make Batman and Robin into *one*.

Metaphorically speaking, Terry is a Robin with the extra burden of having to inheret the Batman mantle upfront and learn as he goes.

[Failure]

You know, despite all of the controversy, I still consider Terry as Batman. Bruce was Batman in his own right, and no one will ever compare to him, but that doesnt mean we should close the door on Terry. Terrys not trying to be Bruce, Terry's trying to be Batman, and there's no set rules on the motivations and the training methods that has to be followed to become Batman.

Terry's not Bruce, that's what we have to get in mind. Terry is Terry, he's not trying to be Bruce. I think people have to stop comparing Terry's Batman to Bruce's Batman. There will never be another Bruce Wayne, but Terry took out the Joker, something Bruce could never do. He deserves some credit, he deserves more respect that he gets.

[Failure]

Oh, I'm aware that I repeated the "Terry is not Bruce" line ad nauseum. That was for a reason. :)

[The Guard]

One thing clinched it for me. In the episode where Bruce heard voices...he said he knew it wasn't him, and that he wasn't crazy...

Terry asked why, and Bruce said.

"It called me Bruce. That's not what I call myself..."

[FLIPMODE]

Failure:

"Terry's trying to be Batman, and there's no set rules on the motivations and the training methods that has to be followed to become Batman. "

Are you kidding? :rolleyes:

Im going to simply reply by saying: Yes, there is!

Failure:
"but Terry took out the Joker, something Bruce could never do. He deserves some credit"

:confused:
What are you saying? What Terry did in ROTJ was NO, different from what Batman has done for years!! The Bat has always taken out the Joker. And if you mean Perminently; then your wrong. The only one who get's that credit is Tim. And it was still, un-intentional. And the only reason why the Joker or ANY of Batman's villains committed more than one crime: Is Because Batman allowed them to Live. He's not a killer. And Neither is Terry. Bruce could have ended Joker's life on the first encounter.
So if you constitute that removing the implant on Tim's neck was "Taking out the Joker", then your right, but that would make Terry the Lamest hero in the world. If only it were that easy to defeat all you arch enemies.

[The Guard]

Now that I think about it, there were times when Terry showed MAJOR courage, heroism, etc. And he almost made it into my mind as Batman. Almost.

[Calhoun07]

I agree that Terry needs to be accepted as Batman on his own terms, not on a ruler based on the standard Bruce set. Nor do I expect Terry to behave and to turn out like Bruce did. And as far as the difference in how Bruce and Terry are trianed for the job, well, I will just say that in certain circumstances, necessity dictates that a soldier fight before his training is complete. And just because Terry is training as he goes along doesn't make his identity as Batman any less valid, nor do I think it's justifiable to say he is only Batman based on the suit.

Terry may say he's Batman to make up for mistakes in his past, but I believe it goes deeper than that, perhaps even deeper than his heart or subconscience can comprehend at this time. There is more to that, just as there was more to Bruce giving up Batman than him just picking up a gun and pointing it one time. When Terry said that, that was just a snap shot of that moment, but there is more to his reason for being Batman, some subtle and not even yet realized even to him, but enough, I am sure, to keep him fighting the fight even if he has to do it solo.

[Calico]

Terry is not Batman...yet. Bruce allows him to wear the suit and go out night after night fighting crime in his name. It's when and only when Bruce decides that his apprentice is ready to accept the mantle in full will it be 'official'. This includes being a fine detective as well as fighter. Who knows how long this will take or if Terry will ever reach that level. Of course without any further episodes we can only speculate how far Terry can go.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Calico
Terry is not Batman...yet. Bruce allows him to wear the suit and go out night after night fighting crime in his name. It's when and only when Bruce decides that his apprentice is ready to accept the mantle in full will it be 'official'. This includes being a fine detective as well as fighter. Who knows how long this will take or if Terry will ever reach that level. Of course without any further episodes we can only speculate how far Terry can go.

I think Terry is Batman in Bruce's eyes. That was more than proven in ROTJ.

[Failure]

Originally posted by FLIPMODE
Failure:

"Terry's trying to be Batman, and there's no set rules on the motivations and the training methods that has to be followed to become Batman. "

Are you kidding? :rolleyes:

Im going to simply reply by saying: Yes, there is!

Failure:
"but Terry took out the Joker, something Bruce could never do. He deserves some credit"

:confused:
What are you saying? What Terry did in ROTJ was NO, different from what Batman has done for years!! The Bat has always taken out the Joker. And if you mean Perminently; then your wrong. The only one who get's that credit is Tim. And it was still, un-intentional. And the only reason why the Joker or ANY of Batman's villains committed more than one crime: Is Because Batman allowed them to Live. He's not a killer. And Neither is Terry. Bruce could have ended Joker's life on the first encounter.
So if you constitute that removing the implant on Tim's neck was "Taking out the Joker", then your right, but that would make Terry the Lamest hero in the world. If only it were that easy to defeat all you arch enemies.

Ok, I'm going to concede on the point that Bruce did take out the Joker many, many times. It's something I forget when Joker shows back up 2 episodes later. But give Terry credit, he was able to rattle Joker in a way Bruce never could. He analyzed the Joker's strengths and weaknesses, he analyzed his own strengths and weaknesses and realized he couldnt beat Joker the same way Bruce did, so he exploited Joker's character flaws and did him in his own way.

But going back to the set rules and training, I'd like you to go into more detail on that. Does Batman need to be well trained? Obviously, yes. But by set rules and training, I'm just saying Terry doesnt have to do the exact same things that Bruce did. There are different ways to learn different things, and also this is also a different time. The basic skills have to be there, but the importance of more peripheral skills might change.

That said, Terry is Batman-in-training, but he's still Batman.

[Ruffian]

I see Terry as Batman. Throughout the series I think he's earned the title. Some parts he doesn't look up to the level of Bruce when he was Batman. I think it's understandable considering Bruce prepared himself for this life even before he came up with the name Batman. Terry's still learning as he goes along. His skills hasn't been perfected and honed like Bruce's, but he certainly is learning to be better.

Terry I think has more in common with Bruce than either of the Robins and Batgirl. Bruce could relate to most everything that Terry went through, except the high school years :p . But the way Terry felt about Mr. Fries, Melanie, Big Time, and the JLU, Bruce understood. I also feel that Terry understood Bruce more than Dick and Tim ever did in the series. They made a better team than Bruce and his other partners.

What I really liked in the BB series were the episodes that demonstrated Terry's growth into Batman, and seeing Bruce accepting him as a worthy successor, and most especially a friend. :)

[SSNTails]

One thing that's also interesting about Beyond is that, in a way, you get both Batman and Superman in the same story. Terry has abilities that could be compared to Superman's on a small scale, but have a human side in that they can get broken, etc. Then you have the detective, "Batman" part.

But yeah, I call Terry "Batman". Even Bruce calls him that in Ascension. :p

[zero zero nine]

"The ears are too long and I miss the cape..."- Joker in ROTJ
:p

But I'm in Failure's boat here. Terry is not supposed to be Bruce. He's supposed to be Batman. Yes, we all know Bruce doesn't think of himself as Bruce anymore. But in the end, friends, that is who he is. Bruce. Not even he can take that away from himself. I think Stalker was right... Batman is a "spirit" (not literally, maybe the word i'm looking for is "ideal") that inhabits the greatest warrior of each generation... whether that person is the greatest, or on his way to being so...

But, critics say, Bruce created Batman. So HE should have final say... it's like the cartoon. Dini and Timm created the best Batman cartoons ever... Some said they wouldn't watch a new series if it wasn't done by timm and dini... just because no matter how good it would be, they'd see it as a "wannabe" Bat-toon.

There's nothing worse than being a wannabe.

[Barb Gordon]

I thought, or assumed, that another reason was Terry was Batman was because of his father's death. I like Terry, he's a cool character, and BB is a very neat show. A possible future, and it was great. Bruce will always, forever and ever, be THE Batman, no questions about it. Terry is A Batman, and a darn good one considering the age and inexperience, and yes, a super kick arse suit does help things along. There have been a few others Batmans, Azrael *shudder*, and Dick *woo!*, and now Terry, though Terry was more full time unlike the other two. But like I've already stated, I see Terry as a Batman, Bruce will always be The Batman, and yay for him.

Barb^-^

[Supermon]

Bruce is the only Batman. By allowing Terry to take the mantle Bruce is giving himself a way to continue the only life he's ever known through the cameras in Terry's head piece.

I dont know if Terry is the perfect choice to step in the suit, but he's come through as many times as any gadget on Bruce's utility belt. Because really thats all Terry is to Bruce, is another weapon to throw at crime nicely funded by Wayne Enterprises.

[Calhoun07]

I am sure that Terry means more to Bruce than a Batarang. What I am actually wondering is if Terry is more of a replacement for Dick. That dynamic in their relationship could have really been examined in a movie with the return of Nightwing, where perhaps Bruce and Dick restored their past friendship and Terry begins to feel left out and wonders if perhaps he was being used by Bruce to replace Dick.

Of course, I don't think that Bruce would have kept Terry on all this time if that was the case, nor do I necessarilly believe that is the case, but I am sure that it would be a natural reaction on Terry's part to wonder that should Dick return.

[The Game]

Terry is more than Dick in a sense- but there is NO WAY he was, or ever will be Batman. Sorry, not happening. There is one man, and one man only that will ever assume that title- Bruce Wayne.

Terry is simply a teenager that kid fans of the show recognize with, that Bruce can use as an outfit to live vicariously through.

THATS IT!

[FLIPMODE]

Exactly.

And without that suit, Terry is'nt much.

I know one episode tried to convey that he's good without the suit. But he's not really. They just made that episode to fill the obvious void, that he's just this unexperienced teen in a great suit, and has support from one of the greatest Superheros ever. They had to attempt to emphasize that he is a tuff kid.

My thing is, hey, dont be ashamed if your a Superhero exploiting your powers. What would Spidey be without all his powers? Well if he still wanted be a Superhero, ...he'd be Baman. If not, he would'nt be anything really.

So basically Terry is the perfect example of what it would be like if one of "us", were picked up by Bruce, fully backed and funded with Bat-tech, Batman himself as a saftey guide, and a strength enhancing, bulletproof suit. Infact, why limit this to just Terry? If Bruce were smart, he'd open this up to public and charge a fee. It would be a one of those extreme expeirences that people do, like sky diving, and paint ball. :p

But in all seriousness, Terry was to reliant on the powers of the suit. He had little technique. He took almost ALL of the hits that came his way, pretty much like Superman. Even though he has a cool suit for protection, that's still carelss fighting, not just for a Batman, but any bat-team member.

The fact is Bruce was Still Batman, in BB. Not Terry. Terry was the Body.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by FLIPMODE
Exactly.

And without that suit, Terry is'nt much.



Terry hasn't even reached his college years yet. At his age, it's too much to be expecting Terry to be anywhere near Bruce's level. The BB tv show was also hardly the right forum to explore Terry's growth into the role. So let's be fair.

As far as what Terry offers, we've seen that aspect in more than just one episode. The kid can think, has determination, heart, respect for the Mantle, and cares about what he's doing. The suit might have tremendous capability, but it doesn't control him. If we were to see BB continued in a serious, long-term comic book series comparable to the regular continuity bat-titles, you know we'd see incredible development of Terry's character as he grows older. As it stands, we've seen an incredible start for him. He's done enough to prove he deserves to wear the suit and continue the tradition.

[austin norsworthy]

like he said in his first adventure he IS batman. Bruce, Barbara, and Tim know he's not just some punk in a suit. He is the batman of that era. He's put aside his own needs to be batman, and has always tried to follow bruce's orders. I really don't like people saying it will never happen. I know you sould respect others opinoun, but that makes it sound like anyone who thinks otherwards is a complete moron.

[KingKoopa]

It's not Terry that's Batman. It's both of them. Neither one could continue Batman without the other. Terry needs Bruce for the experience, and Bruce needs Terry to go out on the field. Neither one could be Batman without the other. Bruce lost his determination after the first part of the first episode. That was it. Then Terry comes along to continue the legacy. If Terry didn't show that determination, Batman would still be dead. Just like if Bruce couldn't accept that Terry was part of the team, then Batman would still be dead, it would just be a punk in a suit. So, they're BOTH Batman.

[Naraht]

ok, 1st off...the suit...

Sorry, you can't be Batman without (a) suit. Bruce couldn't do it, and neither can terry. You want to get really technical, Batman is the man & the suit.

I'm going to go non animated for a second, and point out that after all of his training, he still nearly died...cause he didn't have the suit, and no one feared him.

the suit & the fear give him power. doesn't matter which "him" we're talking about.

even in the animated series, while Bruce & terry can kick ass without the costume...it's not the same for them. They do hold back at times...they're falible...

so...now that we've gotten that out of the way...

is Terry really Batman? Yeah...not the same Batman that Bruce was, but Batman none the less...

[The Game]

Sorry, you can't be Batman without (a) suit. Bruce couldn't do it, and neither can terry. You want to get really technical, Batman is the man & the suit.

Dude, you're totally missing the point here. Terry had no skills and completly relied on the suit to crimefight. Bruce's suit was simply A) a way to strike fear in his opponents and B) a way to conceal his identity. Bruce had the skills by himself, Terry did not.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by thegame8866


Dude, you're totally missing the point here. Terry had no skills and completly relied on the suit to crimefight. Bruce's suit was simply A) a way to strike fear in his opponents and B) a way to conceal his identity. Bruce had the skills by himself, Terry did not.

He did not completely rely on the suit...
He could hold his own in a fight, on occasion went undercover..
does he have the deductive reasoning that Bruce has? no. But he's learning...

[ZorBrak]

Terry was a 17 year old kid, Bruce was a grown man, so obviously Bruce excelled at being "The Batman" but Terry was learning, I think you people are not giving Terry the chance he deserves, he is not just some punk kid in a suit, and its obvious throughout the show, he is a very intelligent and clever guy and his skills develop. It's true that Bruce used Terry as a way for himself to continue his work, and that Terry could not go on as Batman without Bruce's assistance.

But Terry was a thinker, like Bruce, and he was learning from Bruce, yet he thought differently, I was so awed at how he handled the Joker, because...That's what I always thought I would have done to defeat him, play with HIS mind...I used to think it would freak him out...and it did, and I'm not bringing this up to say I can "relate to teen heroes" but because I liked how both characters had different methods, but the same intentions. I have trouble relating to Terry in alot of ways, but I still think Terry could have become "THE" not just "A" but "THE" Batman had he been given a chance to develop into Batman, so in my opinion, in Batman Beyond, Bruce was still Batman, Terry was his Side kick, but things would have changed.

If you can see the development between Dick and Bruce, its likely Dick would have become Batman full time, he would be different but, he'd be Batman....had Bruce not refused, to me, its not just a title or a suit, its what I like to think of as a dynasty, a dynasty of Justice. People just won't let Bruce's reign end, I like Bruce, but Terry deserves his time and I think the mantel would become his once Bruce passes away, because he fights for the same reasons, no matter what his behavior and methods are, he was becoming, what would be the succesor to Bruce, in the Batman Dynasty. In conclusion what I mean is that Batman is not one man, but he is not a simple title easily earned, the hero must be just, intelligent, highly skilled in fighting (and regardless to what some say Terry was not a weak figther w/o the suit), and fair...both Dick and Terry had these qualities...as did Bruce, and Bruce is mortal...however, Batman is not, for Batman is not just one man, no matter how brave, courageous or skilled that man may be.

[superfreak]

I think that Terry is Batman. He is a different Batman from Bruce. Terry's just at the beginning of his Batman career. As such Terry will naturally rely on the suit and Bruce's experiences to help him in the fight to protect Gotham City. Critics of Terry often cite that Terry rely too much on the suit, which I counter. If Bruce continues to be Batman up to the time he's an old man in BB time. He must have a suit to rely upon or else he might just well give up being Batman. In "Kingdom Come" we even see old Bruce Wayne relying on the batsuit and cybernetic skeleton to help him in his fight for justice. Personally that is not how I would picture Bruce in his old age. I'm sure some would say that instead of having this possible future for Bruce how about the possible future of DK2, which I find disturbing. Bruce in that future rely on street punks to dressed in batman type costume to help free Flash from his imprisonment. In the heat of the action, one of the batboys went berserk and killed people. If Terry was in action, e'll figure a way to distract the guards without losing his judgement like Bruce. As a result I personally prefer Terry as Batman.