Here's an explanation for Superman's varying power level

[Batman 80]

Go to this link. It may answer some questions.
http://supermanhomepage.com/comics/comics-superman.html

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by hot rod
Go to this link. It may answer some questions.
http://supermanhomepage.com/comics/comics-superman.html

BAH!! No answers there.. just more John Byrne blasphamy!! :mad:

[metaphysician]

Originally posted by Eric Draven


BAH!! No answers there.. just more John Byrne blasphamy!! :mad:

Could you point out the "blasphemy"?? I didn't see anything there that looked out of place, at least in the powers section.

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by metaphysician


Could you point out the "blasphemy"?? I didn't see anything there that looked out of place, at least in the powers section.

It was a JOKE :rolleyes:

In all honesty I really hated what Byrne did to Superman.. which the industry spent YEARS trying to undo. The first of which was to give him back visible heat vision.

Don't get me wrong.. I really do like most of Byrnes work.. especially Fantastic Four.. but ... I have to wonder what the troops were smoking when they greenlighted his ideas for the new Man of Steel, only to spend the next decade undoing most of it.

"Whats to worry? Each of us is only wearing an unlicenced nuclear accelerator on his back?"

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Eric Draven
It was a JOKE :rolleyes:

Just a note: If you're going to kid around, it is best to use an appropriate smiley.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally posted by Maxie Zues

Just a note: If you're going to kid around, it is best to use an appropriate smiley



Or .. if you avoid using the smiley - it helps if the joke is
actually funny.




Originally posted by Eric D.

BAH!! No answers there.. just more John Byrne blasphamy!!



I honestly have to assume that you know very little about Superman or the contributions which John Byrne made to
the Superman Mythos to place a post like this.

Im not a huge John Byrne fan... but his overhaul on Superman
will stand out as his best work and the most important
and successful "reinterpration & recreation" of a classic
hero ever.

There are a number of reasons this is so ..and Id be happy to
explain them to you at a later time if your interested.



Originally posted by Eric Draven
I have to wonder what the troops were smoking when they greenlighted his ideas for the new Man of Steel, only to spend the next decade undoing most of it.


This statement is so wrong ...it boggles the mind.

There are so many things wrong with this statement .. its almost difficult to asses where to begin to disect it.

Bottom line ... The DC Revamp of Superman was not only necessary, but well received and vital to the future of the title.

DC has not done very little to change the revisions made by J. Byrne ...quite the contrary they've become gospel.

The only thing that DC has changed since Byrne are Supermans
power levels.

Byrne believed Superman was way too powerfull ... before his
revision Supes was able to move the moon out of orbit , breathe in space and travel through time.

DC has gradually been increasing Supe's powerlevels since
Byrne left the title.

Personally I think thats a huge mistake.

I could do with a slighlty weaker Superman.
In order for Superman to be truly heroic .. we have to
believe his adventures are a struggle .
And in order for there to be drama ...there has to be the possibility of Superman losing.

[Ricochet]

Anyone notice how Clark and Lois' street address is 1938? Think about it. :cool:

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by The Spirit


This statement is so wrong ...it boggles the mind.

There are so many things wrong with this statement .. its almost difficult to asses where to begin to disect it.

Bottom line ... The DC Revamp of Superman was not only necessary, but well received and vital to the future of the title.

Im well aware of what was necessary to re-engender interest in the title. Ill thank you to maintain a civil tongue in yer rather unnecesarily rude mouth. You have no clue as to what I do or dont know, nor is it appropriate for you to comment on it here.

The simple fact is they needed to start over.

To correct your statement, that "DC has done very little to change Superman since then..."

#1 They've made his heat vision visible again.
#2 They changed his invulnerability being due to an 'energy field' back more to his actual natural state under the effects of a yellow sun combined with unatural density of tissue (read an annual or 3, you'll catch the references)
#3 They've increased his Strength
#4 They've increased his Speed
#5 They've increased his visual Accuity
#6 They've increased his ability to go without breathing (He never could 'breath' in space, he simply didnt HAVE to breath before)

Um.... what else IS there to change??????

If you're going to go off the deep end and start saying things like they havn't done alot to change Superman, maybe you shoud'nt admit they changed his power levels (what else IS there to change.. his hair color?), and openly wish they hadnt.

Like it or not.. Superman IS The Father of all modern Comic Heroes. Its unseamly to make him "just like all the others" for the sake of a sales point of view. If their ideas and changes had been enough, then they wouldnt have pulled "Sealed Pollybag" and multicover-issues and other such gimmics to increase sales.

'Killing' Superman was another such gimmic, which did virtually nothing but provide a temporary "They would'nt!" type of interest.
Also.. Restarting Superman allowed them to go thru just about every story ever done in DC's history and retell them. 60 Years of FREE subject matter to go with again? How could it LOSE?? They also managed to screw up EVERYTHING they had tried to do to repair continuity for the DC Comics Universe.

Superman & Flash were the 2 greatest culprits unfortunately for cofusing what happeend to who & where or when, and writers tried their best to explain. As Ive stated before, I personally believe 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' was an increadible series, and possibly the very best 'maxi-series' DC ever developed (along with Camelot 3k I admit).

Byrne managed to screw it all up again.. and so new writers started doing the same thing. Hal Jordan goes off the deep end becuase of the deaths of Coast City and is eventually replaced. Wally doesnt posses natural speed but rather taps into the 'speed force' (I loved this series until they got to that point).
New(er) Characters start changing powers and abilities DRASTICLY in an effort to 're-engender' interest & sagging sales.
Electrical based power Superman was probably the STUPEDIST idea they ever had.. but STILL someone gave it the green light.

So.. what exactly DONT I understand about what happened?

Does anyoe actually OWN the the last Action Comic in which they killed the original Superman for real just before Byrne took the helm? I was in Japan at the time.. and when I got back the changes were in full swing :(

"This could lead to an E-K-E rip of increadible, even DANGEROUS proportions"

[Stupendous Man]

Originally Posted by Eric Draven ...

Ill thank you to maintain a civil tongue in yer rather unnecesarily rude mouth. You have no clue as to what I do or dont know, nor is it appropriate for you to comment on it here.



To begin ... I was not rude to you but rather challenging your notions. This is a forum for the exchange of ideas and opinions.
If you can't handle someone commenting on your opinions dont
post them.

I am not going to attack you personally however.
This is supposed to all be in good fun.
Lighten up Draven.

Also I have some idea on what you do or do not know based on the opinions your issuing. Your words betray you.
And I cant think of a more appropriate place to discuss varying opinions on Superman than this forum.

Now to comment on the topic itself:


Originally posted by Eric Draven
#1 They've made his heat vision visible again.
#2 They changed his invulnerability being due to an 'energy field' back more to his actual natural state under the effects of a yellow sun combined with unatural density of tissue (read an annual or 3, you'll catch the references)
#3 They've increased his Strength
#4 They've increased his Speed
#5 They've increased his visual Accuity
#6 They've increased his ability to go without breathing (He never could 'breath' in space, he simply didnt HAVE to breath before)

Um.... what else IS there to change??????
(what else IS there to change.. his hair color?),



In answer to your question Eric .... A LOT.

If you'll notice all the changes your claiming DC has
made to Byrnes revision of Superman are related to
his powerlevels.

What you dont seem to realize , and why I have "a clue"
as to "what you do or do not know" about Byrne and
the revision of the Superman Mythos ,
is that the changes in Supermans powerlevels were
the least significant change made to Superman by Byrne


For Your Information ...

Here are some of the revisions made to the Superman
Mythos ( all of which are slightly more significant to the
legend of Superman than haircolor):

1. Superman was the Sole Survivor of Krypton:

Pre - Crisis/ Pre-Byrne Superman wasnt the only survivor
from krypton. There were a host of super monkeys , super horses,
cats & dogs, there were cousins and bottled cities etc.

At one point it was so convoluted that it seemed the only two
people who had died on Krypton were Superman's Parents.

Byrne cleaned this up. Thus Post Byrne .. Supergirl is no
longer a Kryptonian.

2. Ma & Pa Kent are still alive and active participants in
Clark Kents life :

This is arguably one of Byrnes big contributions.. pre Byrne revision Pa Kent was dead and Ma Kent had either passed on or
was out of the picture entirely.

Byrne made the Kents strong supporting characters in the Superman titles. Something that has continued under different
writers.

3. No career as Superboy ... Clark gains powers gradually into
adulthood :

Byrne god rid of all Superboy continuity. He was never Superboy in Smallville. He did not have powers as an infant. He gradually increased in power as he spent more time on earth.

He becomes Superman in Metropolis.

4. Only one type of Kryptonite - Green :

Before Byrne DC had gone loopy on Kryptonite variations.
There was Red , and Gold, and Aquamarine - Pink and off white ..
all affecting Superman in silly ways.

Byrne saw that Superman stories were relying too much on
Kryptonite ...and it appeared to be way too abundant.
Common criminals were carrying kryptonite.

Byrne made the substance rare ...and kept it to just green.

Arguably his biggest change.
DC has yet to change this.

5. Changed the entire character of LEX LUTHOR:

This ones a radical change that has not only endured
but been capatilized by DC.

Pre-Byrne Lex was a mad scientist ...a criminal genius who
hated Superman because he bamed him for his baldness.
Basically a lame villan.

Byrne turned Lex into a Corporate Giant.
A media mogul. The power behind Metropolis.

His antagonism to Superman is a result of the perceived
shift in power and popularity from Lex to Superman .
Also his distrust of Supermans Alien origins and the
fact that Superman kept meddling with his illegal operations
provided a much more reasonable rivalry with the Man of Steel
than hatred due to hair loss.

6. changed the character of Clark Kent :

Byrne changed Clark from the bumbling , clumsy awkward
Clark that existed previous...(similar to Christopher Reeves
interpretation) to a Clark who was cool and composed.
A professional Lois felt the need to compete with.

He also had Clark beet Lois to the Superman Interview.

Originally Lois had been the first to Interview Superman..
Byrne changed it so Clark uses the Superman interview to
gain a job at the Daily Planet.

It end up bieng a point of hostility between Clark and Lois.
Lois doesnt like to be beaten.

I could go on and on ...but really this is just getting to be way to long a post. ( If you want further examples I could provide them).

The point, I hope, is taken.

Byrnes revisions were major.
There mostly still honored today.
They improved the character and the
history of Superman immesurably.

For anyone to dismiss Byrnes contributions ...or to claim that
DC has worked to fix his "mistakes" is definitely an erroneous
statement probably founded on an ignorance of the subject matter.

Dont take it personally Eric .. the forums are supposed to be
a place for the exchange of information.

I learn new things about Superman all the time.
Hopefully you learned something new here today ...and
maybee youll go back and read some of Byrnes stuff with
a new apppreciation.

Good Luck Eric !

[Eric Draven]

I agree... Byrne DID change all those things.. and yes ... I DO feel that most of them are good changes, and even appropriate... but Im not talking about the DC Universe in which Superman resides..a nd his past or the lives around him. My comments were refelctive SOLEY upon SUPERMAN himself. HIS powers and abilities only.. nothing else.

[Stupendous Man]

Originally Posted by Eric draven
My comments were refelctive SOLEY upon SUPERMAN himself. HIS powers and abilities only.. nothing else.


Your post didnt really imply that at all.

But lets just assume thats your only complaint -

What power levels would you like to see Superman at ?
Is he still to weak for you ?

[Stupendous Man]

Actually Eric ... upon rereading your posts -
you didnt limit yourself to Supermans powers you made
specific comments concerning continuity ..

One example :


Originally posted by Eric Draven

Also.. Restarting Superman allowed them to go thru just about every story ever done in DC's history and retell them. 60 Years of FREE subject matter to go with again? How could it LOSE?? They also managed to screw up EVERYTHING they had tried to do to repair continuity for the DC Comics Universe.



You've got a few more continuity complaints regarding Byrne ...but Im not out to crucify you.

Also your mistaken when you imply that Byrnes Revisions
messed up resolutions that were put in place after CRISIS.

Actually Byrnes Revisions were a result of CRISIS and happened
in accordance to - not against CRISIS.

LOL .. It gets hard to back-peddle when your post are recorded.

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by The Spirit


Your post didnt really imply that at all.

But lets just assume thats your only complaint -

What power levels would you like to see Superman at ?
Is he still to weak for you ?

Heh.. when I read "No Limits".. I felt they were starting to get the right idea..

My Take: Superman Wants to be an inspiration, without ostracising the people he wants to protect. He simply wants to be 'the friend' that gets things done, and try to inspire others to be more then they are at the same time.

But what if hes been holding back for fear of simply becoming TOO powerful? What if hes been willing to keep 'rising to the occasion', each and every time something bigger, meaner, and badder comes along? Each time growing a little faster, a little stronger, and increasing his limits each time? But what happens when it isnt quite fast enough, and folks get hurt... innocent people who might not HAVE been hurt, injured, or even killed if he had been JUST a little bit stronger?

I keep thinking about Superman, the animated series. Remember when Dan Turpin died? He was killed because Superman wasnt fast enough, wasnt strong enough, or powerfull enough to stop it in time. Only the rage of Dan's death forced him to step beyond what he honestly believed, and perhaps even NEEDED to be his limits.

And thats the key.. what if hes unconsiously afraid of that power, and the potentiol havok it would create should he become angry or lose control?

So he holds himself back.

But sooner or later, hes going to ahve to accept, that hes MORE then just a man.. and hes also going to ahve to realize, that even though Power can corrupt.. an honest man, a moral man, a HERO.. can and will do the right thing.. as long as he places the MAN first.. to be the man who is the Hero, and not the other way around.

Remember Kingdom Come? Elliot S. Maggin's take on Superman.. IMHO.. is spot on.

Superman is and should be as strong as he needs to be.. and is willing to be. Tangible physical limits shouldnt really be a factor.. as long as you have responsible and moderately intelligent stories & writting. Its not to hard to look at something and see if its just a plain ludicrous use or display of his power. His responsibility is not to entertain, or placate crowds..

Its to inspire, protect, and lead.

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by The Spirit
Actually Eric ... upon rereading your posts -
you didnt limit yourself to Supermans powers you made
specific comments concerning continuity ..

One example :




You've got a few more continuity complaints regarding Byrne ...but Im not out to crucify you.

Also your mistaken when you imply that Byrnes Revisions
messed up resolutions that were put in place after CRISIS.

Actually Byrnes Revisions were a result of CRISIS and happened
in accordance to - not against CRISIS.

LOL .. It gets hard to back-peddle when your post are recorded.

You seem to be turning this into some kind of crusade to prove something.. If you want to take things out of context, and pick at details in ways they didnt aply.. then feel free to do so..

Fact remains.. the restart gave them alot of material to rework with.. and they did. Thats not a Continuity point, its a business FACT.
Writers and staff were pretty much out of things for Superman to do.. and enemies to overcome. So they started over and got to do it all over again. Now if you feel like finding some point in there and again taking it out of context.. batter up!

[Kal-el]

Draven and Spirit, you both bring up vary good points. While I may not be as well-versed in Superman's history as the two of you are, I do know what I want to see in Superman. Personally, my wish for Superman is to be powerful, but fight the psychological battles.
I feel that a more powerful Superman would have a greater sense of responsibility, and that greater sense would lead him to attempt saving everyone and everthing all the time. This, of course, cannot be done. This would highlight the all the things that he COULDN'T do, because he is only one being. As Batman has his quest, so does Superman. Truth and Justice can be so perverted, but he uses all his might to keep those concepts pure. That, in itself, is superhuman. In his never ending attempt to do that, he is trouble and conflicted with the knowledge that he CAN'T do it all (this works either when he is solo or working with the JL). As I've stated before, with a greater self-imposed responsibility comes greater potential for failure. Not everyone can be saved.
That being said, his deferrment to others (the JL) is his only recourse.
I like the powerful Superman. A powerful Superman is the ultimate symbol of hope. A powerful Superman is also one that cannot do everything. He can't be in 5 places at once.
I feel lately (especially in S:TAS and JL) the cerebral aspect of Superman has been ignored all together. He has become the big guy who takes all the abuse. He has so much more potential than that.
So, after all these words, I'll say that a more powerful Supes is one that will show how much he CAN'T do in his never-ending quest. My expectation for Superman at this time are low, so I don't expect much of him. The drama, for me, is knowing what fantastic things he can do, but isn't able to because, as I said, he's only one being.

[MattL.]

Myself, I like both takes in regards to either an almost godlike Superman and/or a lower powered one.

What Byrne brought to it was the idea of Superman being first and formost Clark Kent. A guy from Kansas.

Wheras the movie and the Elliot S. Maggin stories portray the character as Kal-El first and formost.

Now, I like the idea of him being Clark Kent just fine. However, it really gets under my skin when people basically assume that an highly powered Superman who is primarily Kal-El is inherently bad and subliterate. Kind of tying into this prevading mentality that call comics sucked before 1986 and nothing about them should ever surface again.

Or something thats even more urksome, when they say that Kal-El is "unrelatable". :rolleyes: Listen, when *you* can fly then you can ***** to me about how unrelatable Pre-Crisis or movie Superman is. Like what? a powerful alien can't feel lonliness or longing or a need to belong in a world where he never quite can? Well gee, then we better hurry up and boot Martian Manhunter out of the JL because we can't "relate" to him, especially since none of us have ever been to Mars.

Getting back to the subject at hand though, personality wise TAS had the most balanced take on his character. He was neither just Kal-El or Clark. He was both. He was a Clark Kent who learned of and cherished his alien heritage and even his birthname.

With his power levels, the basically took the correct strategy which is playing his powers as a potential thing. He was not casually omnipotent, but if you got him mad enough he could tear through damn neat anything. Also, I like that they played his invunerablity as meaning that while you could cut his skin or injure him easily, you could knock him down and sending massive amounts of energy into him would still "hurt" him even if it couldn't actually fry his guts, cut through him or burn his skin.

[LastSonofKrypton]

Oh goody! A chance to go into my rant on Superman!

Rant
While I've learned to appreciate all of the various Superman incarnations to varying degrees, I like the S:TAS one the best.

Why, you may ask? (Okay, nobody actually asked, but I'll tell you anyway.) Because Superman was still obviously the Toughest Hero Around, but he was not so powerful that he could solve everything just with muscles and powers. He was shown to have some degree of scientific/technical ability. He knew how to fly a spaceship, operate power armor, and possessed a "computer-like mind" (at least according to the official Animated Batman and Superman website). Sometimes he had to think his way out of problems. Even with episodes with Batman, the Batman Exclusionary Rule (i.e. when Batman is around, no one else is allowed to think) was not in effect.

Both Superman and Clark Kent were portrayed as capable go-getters. Much as I like the new Justice League series, I have to agree that Superman has (with the exception of evidencing some detective skills/scientific knowledge in In Blackest Night Part II) been especially ineffectual. I'm hoping this changes soon, especially in Superman's spotlight episode, but I'm not holding my breath.
/Rant

Whew! Boy, those rants take a lot out of a guy! :wakko:

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by LastSonofKrypton
Oh goody! A chance to go into my rant on Superman!

Rant
While I've learned to appreciate all of the various Superman incarnations to varying degrees, I like the S:TAS one the best.

Why, you may ask? (Okay, nobody actually asked, but I'll tell you anyway.) Because Superman was still obviously the Toughest Hero Around, but he was not so powerful that he could solve everything just with muscles and powers. /Rant

Whew! Boy, those rants take a lot out of a guy! :wakko:

Rant on brotha! We need more folks who speak their minds without ridiculing or insulting folks while they do it ;)

In any case.. I think the new series has alot of stories.. and MORE then its fair share of surprises to spring on us before even this first season is up. And im betting they may be listening to what we say here.. so PREACH ON :D

"So.. I guess they just don't build 'em like they used to eh?"

[Calhoun07]

Better cool your jets, folks. I've been around long enough to know when a thread looks like it's in danger of being closed down. This ain't my board, so I can't, but just take my advice. If you have a dispute with another poster, either agree to disagree, or take it up with them thru Private Messages, inviting another moderator to over see things if they really get out of hand, but for the sake of all and the boards, keep it off the boards.