Toon Zone Talkback - I'm Not Mad, Cartoon Network. Just Disappointed.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

http://news.toonzone.net/newsicons/i-opinion.gifI'm Not Mad, Cartoon Network. Just Disappointed.
By Harley
11-10-2005, 12:33 PM


car•toon - Pronunciation Key (kär-tōōn) - n.

A drawing depicting a humorous situation, often accompanied by a caption.
A drawing representing current public figures or issues symbolically and often satirically: a political cartoon.
A preliminary sketch similar in size to the work, such as a fresco, that is to be copied from it.
An animated cartoon.
A comic strip.
A ridiculously oversimplified or stereotypical representation: criticized the actor's portrayal of Jefferson as a historically inaccurate cartoon.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

By now, everyone has seen or heard the news of Cartoon Network's experiments in airing live-action films. The decision has raised a few eyebrows, to put it kindly. I hope others will forgive me for not letting my emotions get the best of me and for not engaging in a full-on violent verbal assault of the network, the experiment, the individuals involved in the decision, their children, puppies, kittens and (quite possibly) silverware. It’s their company. Ultimately, they’ll make the decisions they feel they need to.

I'm fairly normal as far as adults go (with normal being a relative term). I live on my own. I've been seeing the same guy for ten years. I pay my bills. I go out with friends for drinks and dinner. I try to watch my figure. I exercise. I play sports when I have the time and the weather's right. I bet you're wondering why I'm even bringing this up. Well, I wanted to establish a few things. I don't weigh 300 lbs., I weigh 118 lbs. I don't live in my parents' garage/attic/basement. I also generally don't write obnoxious diatribes on the net. This, obviously, is an exception to that rule.

"Know thyself"
Socrates, Greek philosopher (469-399 B.C.E.)

I'm sure you need me to tell you Socrates was a wise man. It's important to understand oneself as an individual, a company and equally as a brand. Brand identity is the promise a company makes to its consumers. It’s a relationship of trust. If a brand has a strong bond with its consumers, then significant changes may diminish that trust and sever emotional attachments to the brand.

Believe it or not, I'm surprised Cartoon Network held out on deviating from their brand as long as they did. We've come to a time in cable network television where everyone wants to be the generic cable network with a slight twist. (And Seinfeld. Everyone wants to air Seinfeld.) They've stretched the definition of their original brands so far that they've all but abandoned them in favor of more advertising dollars and the hopes of reaching larger audiences. While I do not know for certain, I’m sure some of these networks receive many e-mails asking questions about shows that actually aired on other networks.

Getting ready for work this morning something hit me (not literally). I remembered an April Fool's Day prank CN pulled a number of years back. It was fantastic. They did nothing but air one Secret Squirrel cartoon continuously for the entire day. I'm sure they received hate mail and angry phone calls. Viewers likely swore up and down that they'd never watch their network again (and probably tuned back in the next day anyway). While reminiscing, I thought to myself, with a tinge of resignation, "Man, I miss the days when Cartoon Network had a set of balls.” (I hope those reading will forgive me the slight bit of impropriety, but I am from the Bronx.) This led me to analyze my gut reaction a bit further as to why CN’s decision to air live-action felt like such a significant step in the wrong direction.

Cartoon Network, until recent years, unapologetically showed animation in a country that largely perceives the medium as a form of children's entertainment. That perception is only accurate as far as the industry allows it to be. Animation is a form of expression, largely commercial, but still art by nature. Art, in and of itself, is not restricted to one age group or gender. This medium is capable of transcending those gaps and reaching audiences of all types. My personal interpretation of Cartoon Network’s brand was, “We show cartoons. Deal with it.” Audiences did, and they even liked it.

Since Cartoon Network’s inception I’ve noticed a marked increase in the number of adults, of all professions and ages, who openly discuss animation. A generation has grown up with Cartoon Network and they’re now reaching the age where they’re getting married and having children. I’ve had dinners with co-workers (current and former, in multiple income brackets) and listened to them go on about cartoons they watch with their children. As they spoke, you could tell from their excitement that they very nearly wanted to watch the show more than the target audience.

And now, when cartoons have come so much closer to hitting the mainstream, Cartoon Network’s decision feels like a step backwards. That's particularly disheartening when the problem with bad animation today is not the medium. It’s the lack of originality, the subpar writing, the poorly executed gags, the off-timing and the cartoon-by-committee feel. Much of what makes a gripping and entertaining cartoon cannot be found in CN’s current offerings.

Alas, Cartoon Network is a company, not a movement (despite what Sean Akins would have you believe). Expectations for them to be something more are unrealistic. That’s just something I’ll have to accept. I’d like to take a moment to thank them for their pioneering contributions to the industry, before we part ways and I continue to look elsewhere for my entertainment. Someone out there has to have the cojones to bring cartoons to the mainstream.

Eileen Delgadillo, a.k.a. Harley, is one of Toon Zone's founders.

After, reading this article, posted on Toon Zone. Form you own opinion! :cool:
I'll post mine later.

[rmarti3926]

I agree. Cartoon Network has no right to air live action stuff. No matter how tempting they may be.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

Well done Harely, well written, straight to the point and not rude at all. I hope CN takes notice of it.

[Duke]

This is the talkback thread for I'm Not Mad, Cartoon Network. Just Disappointed. (http://news.toonzone.net/article.php?ID=6885).


Cartoon Network, until recent years, unapologetically showed animation in a country that largely perceives the medium as a form of children's entertainment. That perception is only accurate as far as the industry allows it to be. Animation is a form of expression, largely commercial, but still art by nature. Art, in and of itself, is not restricted to one age group or gender. This medium is capable of transcending those gaps and reaching audiences of all types. My personal interpretation of Cartoon Network’s brand was, “We show cartoons. Deal with it.” Audiences did, and they even liked it. That is one of the best paragraphs I have ever read.

What's even better than this article is the splash:

http://news.toonzone.net/temp/tz_desk_composit5.jpg

[NickMB]

While I agree with you, did everyone raise this much stink when TOON Disney started airing live action stuff?


I don't think the live-action on Cartoon Network is the issue that should be the main focus of something like this. There are much other thinks to rant about regarding CN's actions, such as the horridness of the new animation that's coming out, and, although you did refer to it, a lot more could've been said about that subject.


Originality is not a factor that's affecting animation, but the entire entertainment medium. Animation lost its quality when it stopped being an art medium and started becoming a business venture on the same level as deciding to open a new Starbucks on the corner of I St. and Don’t Care Ave.


And besides, this is hardly the worst thing that CN has done. When they, or their parent company to be more precise, do stuff like edit a Tom and Jerry short for "political correctness" in a time when we've come so far that stuff like that shouldn't happen, THAT'S the kind of stuff to which we should bring attention.

[sdp]

While I agree with you, did everyone raise this much stink when TOON Disney started airing live action stuff?

they did and they still are, but also toon disney is relatively new while CN has been on for a while now, its different. and the only live action i think they have is Power Rangers, which also is in the "jetix" programing. with specuation it might become a "jetix" channel.

[Tak Mazé]

No matter what you say, I'll still say that the US has it much better than the UK does for this network.
But yah, interesting read :) I remember a time where they were actually, for lack of a better term, GOOD. Nowadays, all I see is crap shows, crap competitions, too many on-screen interuptions... I could go on for pages and pages about why CN UK sucks but I'd only be repeating myself -_-
Come to think of it, the only reason I watch it now is to see how the new shows are after hearing about them from the forum, and to watch Fosters and the Eds.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

After seeing the CN UK schedule and the Boomerang UK schedule I've gotta say... as far as CN's original programing goes you guys get it much better. We just have better acquisitions for the most part.

[zmanjz]

Alas. CN's part in the Animation Revolution looks to be ending, and once the revolution's over, its:

"Meet the new boss....... Same as the old boss."


This is Generic Family Network. "The average place for Toons."

[Peter Paltridge]

While I agree with you, did everyone raise this much stink when TOON Disney started airing live action stuff?Oh yeah.

They're just movies though, not full-fledged live-action programs on 7 times a week, which is what TD did. I'll worry about CN when they turn themselves into VH1. And admit it, you LIKED seeing The Goonies there.

[Peter Paltridge]

Oops. Someone beat you to it already. (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=154155)

[Mr. Pedro]

I'm diggin' the suit.

[Adam Tyner]

Oops. Someone beat you to it already. (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=154155)Merged 'em together.

[Brian Cruz]

As Harley's significant other, I'm on the receiving end of that scowl pretty often...

[Daffy Dork]

They did nothing but air one Secret Squirrel cartoon continuously for the entire day.
It was a Screwy Squirrel cartoon ;)

And very well written. :)

[Kurtman]

I think it's crazy for Cartoon Network to air live action shows. It's CARTOON network not LIVE ACTION network!

[The_Magick_Hat]

Oh how the mighty have fallen. I remember when I used to have cable, when I tuned into CN at every opportunity and vegetate for hours on end. It is indeed getting really difficult to find a network that knows quality animation and it is sad to see that CN seems to have forgotten that.

Just out of curiosity, what live action shows was CN planning on showing anyways?

[Anthonynotes]

The heck? This is the first time I've heard about CN airing live-action anything (thanks to not having cable/not visiting the CN forum much lately)... geez, how the mighty have fallen.

So, as the above poster asked, what live-action movies/shows are they airing?

-B.

[Daffy Dork]

To answer everyone's live action questions, They are showing the following:
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Small Soldiers
Goonies
Honey, I shrunk the kids
Batman

[Chris Wood]

Yikes, that's one scary scowl. Looks like the death penalty is getting handed down.

[Leviathan]

Was this kind of hoopla raised when HBO started airiing original programming?

Seriously tohugh, we must remeber that Networks change, for better or worse (If You criticize Cartoon Network for airing something it hasn't before, in this case live-aciton movies, then you might as well criticize every toher cable network out there).

That Said, I recall that Jeff Harris once said in a similar tread that Canada has a bunch of silly rules for networks, apparently one of which was that if a network is braded a certain way, it must stay that way, osmething to that effect. As an example he listed G4, which apparently is still a technology based network in the North (and called g4techTV), but has become a Spike-TV-esque channel in the States.

[Gokou Ruri]

Big deal, I say let 'em air what they want. I enjoyed watching "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" so it's not like I lost any sleep over it. If anyone honestly does lose sleep over this then they should probably get out more, it's just a TV network.

[Ben]

I hope everyone appreciates the splash. That desk was very expensive. ;)

[hobbyfan]

Let's consider the situation.

Cartoon Network is part of the Turner family of networks, owned in turn by Time Warner. We're in a sweeps period. It's still all about the Benjamins, kidz. It's about ratings.

So Cartoon Network starts running live-action movies. Ever stop to consider that this is a corporate mandate relayed by some accounting nerd because they need to jack up the ad revenues? "Batman" is already in the Turner/TW library, and has aired on TBS, TCM, & TNT. What really spins my wheels is the presence of a pair of Disney movies (Roger Rabbit, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids) on the schedule. Whodathunk that'd happen a year ago?

Remember, prior to this, CN had already shown at least two films that are partially live-action (Balto, Osmosis Jones). I doubt we'll see any l-a movies in December, but how about films like Popeye in January?;)

[moumantai]

i think as long as the movie has cartoon caracters in it its ok

rodger rabbit ok

balto ok

honey i shrunk the kids not ok

small soldiers definetly not ok

[zmanjz]

What really spins my wheels is the presence of a pair of Disney movies (Roger Rabbit, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids) on the schedule. Whodathunk that'd happen a year ago?


Well, Warner already had the broadcast rights to the movies, but you can't tell me that Disney's not laughing this up.

Everyone in the industry knows that when you do something like this, the hardcore animation fanbase would take it as an insult, especially after many of us worked hard to get our cable companies to carry their network.

So it is in Disney's interest to let CN alienate some of CN's fanbase who might, in their quest for a better network, choose to watch Their Toon Networks... (or at least their animation blocks.)

The sad fact of the matter is that Cartoon Network used to be cool. Both the shows they ran, and the network itself, in everything from the homemade bumpers through new show promos.

Right now CN's got some shows that are still cool, but the network itself sold out, and what's even more insulting, it sold out cheap. (Welcome to the 1980's, anyone? It's not like it was the Network television premier for any of these movies.)

But I can't say I'm angry. I was angry when they replaced Toonami on Weekdays with Miguzi,

Now I'm just disappointed that Cartoon Network not only hasn't improved and "acted in the furtherance of the awesomeness of animation" but rather continues to pale further in comparison to their past glory. :sad:

[William C. Maune]

small soldiers definetly not ok

In Small Soldiers, the plot of which revolves around the toy small soldiers, the small soldiers are animated.


So it is in Disney's interest to let CN alienate some of CN's fanbase who might, in their quest for a better network, choose to watch Their Toon Networks... (or at least their animation blocks.)

I dunno considering that Disney already did this quite awhile before CN by airing Power Rangers heavily on Toon Disney. Plus, these days even though the Disney name is known for animation, the Disney Channel's schedule is dominated by live-action material. CN may be airing a few live-action movies, but its Disney that seems to have forgotten its roots on a large scale.

[zmanjz]

I dunno considering that Disney already did this quite awhile before CN by airing Power Rangers heavily on Toon Disney. Plus, these days even though the Disney name is known for animation, the Disney Channel's schedule is dominated by live-action material. CN may be airing a few live-action movies, but its Disney that seems to have forgotten its roots on a large scale.

I would agree that Toon Disney is not an "All Toon Channel" (Personally I Can count the times I've watched Toon Disney in the past year on one hand) But the fact that they are no longer competing with an "All Toon Channel" levels the playing field for them, by at least a little bit.

My point is that Disney must be happy to see CN take some steps towards coming down to their level.

[I.R Joey]

Like pretty much everyone else I think it's kind of illogical for CN and ToonDisney to air live action movies. Then again I'm pretty sure they've aired stuff like Space Jam, and Osmosis Jones in the past, so maybe we're getting mad over nothing.

I know one thing for sure. Brian is probably a very lucky, yet very frightened man. Harley looks like she's going to rip up the first person who looks at her funny. Remind me never to work for her. :p

[Sue]

Good essay, especially the points about cable channels deviating from their original brand.To be honest, Justice League Unlimited is the only reason I watch CN, and as long as they keep it coming, I'm cool. But I can understand how Harley feels. VH1 was my favorite channel when we first got cable, and they actually used most of their airtime for (believe it or not) VIDEOS. Music videos! That changed gradually over the past 15 years, and they now devote most of their time to crap like "Paris Hilton Exposed" and "Celebrity Fat Club." The only time they show videos is when most people are asleep.

[One Radical Dude]

Honestly, I haven't been pleased with what the network has been doing over the past month or so. The two things that have really disappointed me were the fact that they decided to scrap the late Friday/early Saturday AM block for a second airing of Fridays, even though someone mentioned that the ratings increased. When the network decided to air live-action films (though I can understand Who Framed Roger Rabbit? and Small Soldiers being added), I began to think, "what are you doing, CN?" Disappointment and concerned is how I feel.

Your best bet, gang, is to write to them (or type out a letter). I may actually do that, even if nothing changes -- and the fact that most of us aren't the network's main target. I believe that the power of the letter can alter things quite a bit.

[Anthonynotes]

>>
To answer everyone's live action questions, They are showing the following:
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Small Soldiers
Goonies
Honey, I shrunk the kids
Batman<<

*Sigh*... "Roger Rabbit"'s definitely OK (along with any other live-action/animated mixture of similar even levels), guess "Small Soldiers" might pass muster, but the Goonies? Batman? Feh...esp. since there's a ton of direct-to-video Batman movies they could be running.

-B.

[Aquadementia]

http://news.toonzone.net/temp/tz_desk_composit5.jpg
Oh no!
It's Judge Harley!


>>
To answer everyone's live action questions, They are showing the following:
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Small Soldiers
Goonies
Honey, I shrunk the kids
Batman<<

*Sigh*... "Roger Rabbit"'s definitely OK (along with any other live-action/animated mixture of similar even levels), guess "Small Soldiers" might pass muster, but the Goonies? Batman? Feh...esp. since there's a ton of direct-to-video Batman movies they could be running.

-B.
Oh, but let's not forget the puppets.
They acquired a show with mighty action mystic warriors from Taiwan, and have a potential show in development for Adult Swim that's reminiscent of Land of the Lost.

[Killtacular]

Excellent article. I just don't have the strength to keep arguing against Cartoon Network. It's not worth the effort. They really don't deserve attention or merit, until they can prove it. The animation industry fills me with such disgust that I have grown too apathetic to even care at this point. Cartoons can't be for everyone or anyone anymore. There used to be a network that dared to speak differently. There never will be again for a long time.

[Dudley]

Well, for me this came out cmpletely out of the blue. The only thing to do is write a petition, or better yet, don't watch the live-action movies all, becasue if you do, you'll only encourage them to continue airing them.
And why isn't this in the Cartoon Network Forum?

[Jester2415]

there's a easy solution to this live action crap.... don't watch it! It's an experiment, thought up by suits. And whats with all the CN hate, they still play the best toons around, period.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Ugh.

I remember when they first aired those commercials for Time Squad, and for a second I thought it was going to be a live action show, and then I said to myself "No, it's Cartoon Network, they'll never do live action."

Then on Fridays they replaced cartoon hosts with live hosts, puppets, and terrified kids forced to dance for hours on end. That seemed...wrong to me.

Now it's movies with some sort of cartoon or animated element to them (WFRR and SS both used animation, and if you'll recall, Batman's shadow in the beginning was animated...don't know about the others).

What's next? Completely live action movies? Then shows with some live action and some animation? Then shows with all live action?

Ugh.

[Elven Moon]

This is the first I've heard about the whole live-action thing :ack: I can remember when CN aired old cartoons like Shirt Tales and The Snorks. They don't anymore.

[Silverbolt]

I already plan on skipping all these live action movies. If I wanted to see them I'd either get the DVD or I'd watch them when they aired on all the other networks. It was bad enough when CN was showing crap shows instead of all the good stuff they have, now they're showing stuff that every other channel shows as well instead of the good stuff.

[Mek]

*Sigh*... "Roger Rabbit"'s definitely OK (along with any other live-action/animated mixture of similar even levels), guess "Small Soldiers" might pass muster, but the Goonies? Batman? Feh...esp. since there's a ton of direct-to-video Batman movies they could be running.

Yeah. I don't think they've aired 'Mystery of the Batwoman' (or whatever it was called) yet. Not to mention 'Mask of the Phantasm' too, which IMO blows all the Batman movies out of the water.

[Duke]

Yeah. I don't think they've aired 'Mystery of the Batwoman' (or whatever it was called) yet.They aired MOTB late 2004, IIRC.


Not to mention 'Mask of the Phantasm' too, which IMO blows all the Batman movies out of the water.They've aired MotP tons of times on Toonami.

[Wanted]

I remember when they first aired those commercials for Time Squad, and for a second I thought it was going to be a live action show, and then I said to myself "No, it's Cartoon Network, they'll never do live action."And, there was nothing wrong with that. Honestly, I don't have a problem with Cartoon Network presenting their shows with actual people (we'll call them "actors"). They've been doing it since the '90s. They aired Space Ghost: Coast 2 Coast, as well as recruited actors for show promotions. Remember those Ed, Edd n' Eddy promos with the man in the car (Edward) who supplied the Eds jawbreakers? Remember the first Cartoon Cartoon Weekend with the famed astronomer, the meteorologist, and other actors? And, how about that dramatized movie-like Sheep promotion? To a lesser extent, let me point out the three bumpers they used last year with the girl and the mom who talked and talked on her phone.

Cartoon Network has been doing live-action for a while. Sure, what they're doing now is outside of the realm of stupidity, and I'm sure we're all thinking that it couldn't possibly get better. But, I'm thinking about all the times that Cartoon Network used live-action to an effect where it actually worked well with the network and its focus.

[Pathfinder1011]

The Cartoon Network has gotten a lot better since the beginning. The Cartoon Network used to be an all-Hanna Barbera channel where'd you see nothing but Hanna Barbera cartoons. Over time, the Network evolved into showing other cartoon from other companies that does anime and other varieties. That is really a good thing because I am not very crazy about Hanna Barbera with their 2D animation and repeat name characters like Huckleberry Hound- (HH) Penelope Pitstop (PP). That has gotten very old and boring. Today, the Network is now into a vast variety of toons and you hardly see any evidence of the Hanna Barbera staleness. That is a very, very good thing to me. However, in retaliation, Hanna Barbera created Boomerang to get back the dominance of HB to a animated network, seeing that their once dominance of the CN slipping away.
Well, I don't watch that silly channel anyway and I have no worries about Hanna Barbera returning. Whew.

The Cartoon Network is better off without the Hanna Barbera stuff. Thankfully.:D

[William C. Maune]

Yeah. I don't think they've aired 'Mystery of the Batwoman' (or whatever it was called) yet. Not to mention 'Mask of the Phantasm' too, which IMO blows all the Batman movies out of the water.

"Mystery of the Batwoman" made its television premiere on Toonami shortly after the movie was released to DVD. Additionally, I believe "Mask of the Phantasm" has aired multiple times on Cartoon Network, although it has been awhile.

Edit: Duke'd.

[Adam Tyner]

Was this kind of hoopla raised when HBO started airiing original programming?If you count stand-up comedy and sports as original programming, HBO's been doing that since its inception in 1972. In fact, the very first thing HBO ever showed was a Rangers/Canucks hockey game.


(If You criticize Cartoon Network for airing something it hasn't before, in this case live-aciton movies, then you might as well criticize every toher cable network out there).I have, when applicable. Braveheart has no place on the Sci-Fi Channel. Smokey and the Bandit 2 has no place on American Movie Classics. The Goonies has no place on Cartoon Network.

[Conan-san]

After seeing the CN UK schedule and the Boomerang UK schedule I've gotta say... as far as CN's original programing goes you guys get it much better. We just have better acquisitions for the most part. I can assure you, watching the Same epsiode of Forsters for the 100th time < a few live action movies.

In compariation, you guys are geting is a little pinch in compariation and let get to the point, you get to see Roger Rabbit, god I can't rember the last time that was on TV over here.

You still get Naruto (even after Batman, and hell, I certenly in the 'One night of Batman > Naruto' club), you still get all the other shows and what do we get?

Robotboy, a 'effing 'made in taiwan' copy of Astroboy who's only high point is the fact that one of Banzai's hosts is doing the bad guy's voice.

Ok, we're geting two Korean moives during November, no bloddy garantee that's going to stick, and the second there's a free slot it's back to DragonBall Z movies for us and we don't meen the nice Funimation dub ether, we're talking pureile Norwegen crap.

I have nothing to say towrds Honney I shrunk, Goonies and Small Soldiers ( of which the latter two are actauly okish IIRC) but For god's sake, you get a great film mixing LA with Animation (which has happened on before *COUGHSpaceGhostCOUGH*) and one of the greatest Comic -> Film adapations ever.

In compartion to hours on end of Gadget Boy and repeats upon repeats, I think you have very little to comtemplate over.

I agree that having I shurnk, Goonies and Soldiers is a bad idea but that's only half of an otherwise good idea.

and if they had kept the singing sword gag, it would have been a prefect one.

And you can throw rocks at me or what ever, but that's my opintion on the subject.

If CN were to turn around and say "We are airing a Funimation dub of Pritty Guardian Sailor Moon" then I'd greet it with open arms.

[k-unit101]

The Cartoon Network has gotten a lot better since the beginning. The Cartoon Network used to be an all-Hanna Barbera channel where'd you see nothing but Hanna Barbera cartoons. Over time, the Network evolved into showing other cartoon from other companies that does anime and other varieties. That is really a good thing because I am not very crazy about Hanna Barbera with their 2D animation and repeat name characters like Huckleberry Hound- (HH) Penelope Pitstop (PP). That has gotten very old and boring. Today, the Network is now into a vast variety of toons and you hardly see any evidence of the Hanna Barbera staleness. That is a very, very good thing to me. However, in retaliation, Hanna Barbera created Boomerang to get back the dominance of HB to a animated network, seeing that their once dominance of the CN slipping away.
Well, I don't watch that silly channel anyway and I have no worries about Hanna Barbera returning. Whew.

The Cartoon Network is better off without the Hanna Barbera stuff. Thankfully.:D
I don't agree with that. I'd rather the same Screwy Squirrel cartoon all day then the crap CN airs today. To me Cartoon Network went downhill the day they changed their logo to that newer black and white CN thing. They're bumpers suck.What I really hate about Cartoon Network is how they made it a priority to have about 4 commercial breaks every 30 minutes, which would butcher up the older shows they'd air which weren't made for that many commercial breaks, such as "A Pup Named Scooby Doo". As for the live-action they are going to show, bleh. I could care less what Cartoon Network does these days. I no longer watch the channel anyway.

[Duke]

What I really hate about Cartoon Network is how they made it a priority to have about 4 commercial breaks every 30 minutesActually, it's 3 commercial breaks, just like every other channel out there.

[j32885]

Like I said in another thread releating to Cartoon Network's decision to showcase live-action movies. I perfer to have live-action movies with animation like Roger Rabbit and Space Jam on CN, instead movies that have little or no animation like Goonies, Batman (1989), and Honey We Shrunk Ourselves. If CN continues to go down this path, it could spell doom for the rest of the networks current content. :o

[moumantai]

they need a sceedual kinda like this

they need shows like monster rancher uncut digimon yugioh uncut naruto uncut and they need uncut tom and jerry and looney tunes beast wars ect

they need to put shows like billy and mandy courage dexter ed edd and eddy and all the cartioon cartoons ect on fridays or in the mornings every day before school

put two movies back to back everyday must be cartoon related no totally live action movies

and the adult swim should be on from 10 to um 4 with no repeats that way wed get more shows on adult swim

hows that does it sound ok

[Zorak Masaki]

i think as long as the movie has cartoon caracters in it its ok

rodger rabbit ok

balto ok

honey i shrunk the kids not ok

small soldiers definetly not ok
Isnt Small Soldiers CGI animation?

[The_Magick_Hat]

To answer everyone's live action questions, They are showing the following:
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
Small Soldiers
Goonies
Honey, I shrunk the kids
BatmanOkay, Roger Rabbit is one thing. It's a live action/cartoon hybrid, so that works on something like Cartoon Network. Small Soldiers? Never seen it. Goonies, Honey I Shrunk the Kids, and Batman? Don't know what they are thinking there.

One thing is for certain, those movies will likely end up being edited for content and time. Looks like poor Mouth is going to have his mouth washed out with soap after all.

[Duke]

Isnt Small Soldiers CGI animation?The toys are, but the rest of the movie is live action.

[Draft]

my assumption

who framed roger rabbit: should have aired ahges ago
small soldiers: should have aired ages ago, cause it was released ages ago(98??)
batman: at least it has something to do with cartoons/comics
goonies: well, it is a warner brothers film, but air it on tbs instead
honey we shrunk ourselves: what was turner thinking, most likely nothing,nd i would not be suprised if turner payed 2 cents for the dtv, cause that's all it's worth

[William C. Maune]

honey we shrunk ourselves: what was turner thinking, most likely nothing,nd i would not be suprised if turner payed 2 cents for the dtv, cause that's all it's worth

It's the original "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" that is playing, not one of the sequels.

[k-unit101]

Actually, it's 3 commercial breaks, just like every other channel out there.
Yeah. I was gonna type 3 but I typed 4 instead. Either way, they butchered up older shows that weren't made to have that many commercial breaks.

[DarthGonzo]

Funny thing about Roger Rabbit is that it'll probably be the first time the adult versions of the Looney Tunes characters have appeared on CN in a loooong time.

[K-S-O]

Live-action on Cartoon Network???? :confused: That has to be the wierdest thing I ever heard!

After all the live-action movies air, I hope that will be all the live-action CN ever does. If the live-action continues... well I hope they don't replace the cartoons I watch regularly.

[moumantai]

im hoping this live action thing doesnt continue cause if it does they might as well stop calling it cartoon network anymore

live action/cartoon hybrid movies are ok but movies that are totally live action shouldnt be aired

ya know ive been wondering do you guys think the people at cartoon network ever read our posts

[Tom Reed]

All right. Time to blow some reality into this politically-correct conversation. I've worked in TV since 1975, and I seem to understand how the business works better than any of you. Which is kind of a pity, since you're supposed to know the business better than we peons do.

It's been almost a year since I've posted here, so this may be a bit long.

Some facts, and one bit of opinion:

1) There are very few American cartoon movies in the pipeline that are available to CN. Anything done by Nick will be broadcast on Nick. Same for Disney, unless someone wants to pay them more money for their movies than they'll get in advertising revenue, a losing proposition.

2) AOL-TW has made very few animated features. (They are still,and always will be, AOL-TW, no matter what their sign says.) The last, "Looney Tunes: Back in Action" was a flop. With the few movies they have, their marketing is stupid. ("The Batman vs. Dracula" should NOT have been run on CN during Halloween this year. It should have been sold only on video and run NEXT year. They killed their own DVD sales. Stupid.) Anyway, that means they can't truly make their own movies, since once they air on TV, they won't sell well on DVD.

3) There ARE dubbed anime features that would be a good choice for CN. However, they are either too adult in content to run during prime time (no gunfire, no imitatable violence, and all those other censorship edicts) or the entities that own those films are sitting on them. (The Sci Fi Channel is sitting on its anime features, some of which I'd kill to see again - the original "Vampire Hunter D" and "Robot Carnival" among them - but they want to deny CN the chance for more programming, while they run their crappy "original" sci-fi movies.)

4) CN needs more income from teens and above. Popular as Adult Swim may be, those shows can't run in prime time, and they aren't willing to abandon the "kid safe haven" status of CN to make that money. This puts them in a bind as to the kind of programs they can run. They also have to be longer than 30 minutes, so adults will stick around for more commercials and not be tempted to tune away to other channels. That means...movies. The movies mentioned fit that demographic.

5) And now, an opinion. If I may make an observation about the people posting, many of you show absolutely no gratitude what CN has done for you. There's an attitude of "what have you done for me lately?" Do you know that no other network has been as respectful of anime as CN, or given it as many breaks? Their censorship has been mild and respectful of the original content of anime. Yes, I'd love to see bare breasts too, but will that make one iota of difference in the story of "Blue Submarine Number Six"? Especially because showing those breasts will bring the right wing's wrath up from Hell, and cause the network to close?

I personally don't care if they show Bowling for Dollars during the prime time of CN, as long as they still run some cartoons and those cartoons are of good quality. I'd rather have a working, financially viable network that can bring me good cartoons, than a shuttered network and the politically-correct sanctity you guys seem to regard so well...as a cancelled memory.

[Freedom Fighter]

Tom, you make some really good points there. All of which are true, no doubt. Yes, the movie feature pool has always been small (smaller than some of us tend to believe) and there's not many choices CN can go with.

But the driving point of the article is that Cartoon Network was designed to show cartoons. Not live-action.

You can give us live-action hosts/segments on Fridays. Fine. Some people will be spurned by it, but most of us won't mind much.

You can give us live-action movies that have parts with animation it. Also fine. Once again, it'll irk some people, but most of us will let it slide.

But movies that are completely void of any animation whatsoever? Now that completely goes against the edict of the channel being named the Cartoon Network.

Actually, if anything, there's about a dozen 'Land Before Time' movies and a dozen 'Scooby-Doo' movies, right? Kids are still watching those, and they love repeatability, so why not play those movies again and again? Or just go overboard with repeating the CN original series like 'Foster's' and 'KND' even more.=?

Sure, we all wouldn't like either of those to happen, but still, we accept them if and when they do because those two ideas still follow CN's mantra of airing animation. Live-action movies, well, don't.

Oh, and I still have tons of respect for what CN has done in the past... it's still by far my favorite channel to watch. But seriously... the way they're going this year, it's like they're inticing me to give that title to one of their competitors.

[Duke]

2) AOL-TW has made very few animated features. (They are still,and always will be, AOL-TW, no matter what their sign says.) The last, "Looney Tunes: Back in Action" was a flop. With the few movies they have, their marketing is stupid. ("The Batman vs. Dracula" should NOT have been run on CN during Halloween this year. It should have been sold only on video and run NEXT year. They killed their own DVD sales. Stupid.) Anyway, that means they can't truly make their own movies, since once they air on TV, they won't sell well on DVD.It's made even smaller considering that CN has to pay for the licensing rights to any movie made by the WB (hence why Space Jam and Back in Action are nowhere to be found), which is completely stupid.


3) There ARE dubbed anime features that would be a good choice for CN. However, they are either too adult in content to run during prime time (no gunfire, no imitatable violence, and all those other censorship edicts) or the entities that own those films are sitting on them. (The Sci Fi Channel is sitting on its anime features, some of which I'd kill to see again - the original "Vampire Hunter D" and "Robot Carnival" among them - but they want to deny CN the chance for more programming, while they run their crappy "original" sci-fi movies.)But there are enough anime movies for Toonami to air. Anything with Dragonball in it's name gives you 18 movies right there. Then there's 2 Naruto movies which Viz will be bringing over in 2006 & 2007. There's a Duel Masters movie too, though I don't know if that's being brought over here. Then there's about a half-dozen One Piece movies should 4Kids ever decide to dub them. And if CN is still willing to experiment with Gundam there's the SEED Movies & the Zeta movies. And if they decided to go into the past they could always acquire the 3 Tenchi Movies (err, the first 2 anyway), though Sailor Moon's rights are un-aquireable you could say. Of course, this is without talking about the American stuff like the DCAU DTVs that are being made and any future G.I. Joe stuff. Considering that Toonami rarely plays movies for more than a couple months straight (and they shouldn't given their limited timeframe), that's plenty for them to deal with.

[Ben]

Tom, note that the article acknowledges the business considerations. It's talking more about the effect of the move on the loyalty of long-term fans.

[Anthonynotes]

>>[QUOTE=Tom Reed]All right. Time to blow some reality into this politically-correct conversation. I've worked in TV since 1975, and I seem to understand how the business works better than any of you. Which is kind of a pity, since you're supposed to know the business better than we peons do.
<<

"Politically correct conversation"... huh??

I admit I've not worked in television (and that I was *born* in 1975---which makes me older than almost the rest of the people who're probably posting here), but do have some interest, and have followed, how media works (including the journalism courses I've taken in college and books I've read on the workings of media conglomerates). That, and my own opinionated, um, opinions, like everyone else online these days. ;-)

>>
It's been almost a year since I've posted here, so this may be a bit long.

Some facts, and one bit of opinion:

1) There are very few American cartoon movies in the pipeline that are available to CN. Anything done by Nick will be broadcast on Nick. Same for Disney, unless someone wants to pay them more money for their movies than they'll get in advertising revenue, a losing proposition.
<<

True this is a fault of modern media ("vertical integration" "circle the wagons" mentality, along with the byproduct of being huge conglomerates thanks to all those mergers over the years; can recall a time when Disney Channel ran those Looney Tunes "cheater" movies...).

Still, given the number of cartoon movies within the Time-Warner hierarchy (Warner Bros., Hanna-Barbera, direct-to-video, etc., plus possibly reaching for outside sources), there should still be some amount of material to draw from if they paced themselves...

>>
2) AOL-TW has made very few animated features. (They are still,and always will be, AOL-TW, no matter what their sign says.) The last, "Looney Tunes: Back in Action" was a flop. With the few movies they have, their marketing is stupid. ("The Batman vs. Dracula" should NOT have been run on CN during Halloween this year. It should have been sold only on video and run NEXT year. They killed their own DVD sales. Stupid.) Anyway, that means they can't truly make their own movies, since once they air on TV, they won't sell well on DVD.
<<

Agree that WB's marketing has always been pathetic...

>>
3) There ARE dubbed anime features that would be a good choice for CN. However, they are either too adult in content to run during prime time (no gunfire, no imitatable violence, and all those other censorship edicts) or the entities that own those films are sitting on them. (The Sci Fi Channel is sitting on its anime features, some of which I'd kill to see again - the original "Vampire Hunter D" and "Robot Carnival" among them - but they want to deny CN the chance for more programming, while they run their crappy "original" sci-fi movies.)
<<

Eh... not an anime fan, but seems like there's a gazillion anime films they could also draw from as it is (even if it's not something top of the line)...

>>
4) CN needs more income from teens and above. Popular as Adult Swim may be, those shows can't run in prime time, and they aren't willing to abandon the "kid safe haven" status of CN to make that money. This puts them in a bind as to the kind of programs they can run. They also have to be longer than 30 minutes, so adults will stick around for more commercials and not be tempted to tune away to other channels. That means...movies. The movies mentioned fit that demographic.
<<

Given it's, well, "Cartoon Network", I wouldn't expect the same numbers of adult viewers that, say, CNN or TNT gets.

As others suggested, there's nothing wrong with movies with *some* live action material (a la Roger Rabbit), or the shows hosted by live-action hosts (the way TV cartoons used to be hosted on local broadcast tv stations in years past)... it's seeing all-live-action/almost-all-live-action stuff not remotely related to animation that causes me/others to scratch their heads (the "Goonies"?), and just seems like CN showing the same signs other cable networks have started to show these days re: their original focus wandering (such as American Movie Classics becoming "AMC" and another generic TBS/USA wannabe channel, only movie-focused).

My suggestion besides more movies would be airing a bigger variety of shows, beyond just stuff they recently/currently produced or whatever's the current marketing fad-of-the-moment (Pokemon and its knockoffs). As others have suggested in the past, shows that might merit reviving on CN I can think of include:

- Looney Tunes (and possibly other old theatrical cartoons)
- the "Silver Age" Warner Bros. shows----"Tiny Toon Adventures", "Taz-Mania", "Animaniacs", "Pinky and the Brain", etc. The latter two had strong adult/older teen appeal (they were really popular among my fellow college students), but thanks to the aforementioned WB marketing job and other factors, they've been all but ignored since they left Kids WB about five years ago.

>>5) And now, an opinion. If I may make an observation about the people posting, many of you show absolutely no gratitude what CN has done for you. There's an attitude of "what have you done for me lately?" Do you know that no other network has been as respectful of anime as CN, or given it as many breaks? Their censorship has been mild and respectful of the original content of anime. Yes, I'd love to see bare breasts too, but will that make one iota of difference in the story of "Blue Submarine Number Six"? Especially because showing those breasts will bring the right wing's wrath up from Hell, and cause the network to close?

I personally don't care if they show Bowling for Dollars during the prime time of CN, as long as they still run some cartoons and those cartoons are of good quality. I'd rather have a working, financially viable network that can bring me good cartoons, than a shuttered network and the politically-correct sanctity you guys seem to regard so well...as a cancelled memory.<<

Guess if you're referring to keeping its main focus on, well, animation (vs. the 2,857 other channels that I can, and have, watch live-action fare on) as being "politically correct", then for me, I'd say "so be it". Yes, I want to see CN as successful too, and do respect its history, but don't think running live-action fare I can see anywhere else is a wise direction, esp. when there's other animated material they could draw from (movies or not). Yes, airing only one or two all-live movies doesn't automatically make it "USA with a few cartoons", but it still seems as odd and out-of-place to me as the recent airing of "The Flintstones" movies on the Sci-Fi network...something that barely fits the network's motif at *best*, and mostly just leaves me scratching my head otherwise.

-B.

[mg_winxclub]

Here's the full email I sent to Cartoon Ntwork after seeing the live-action Batman commercial:

"Extremely disappointed! What's with all the "live-action" movies? What part of "CARTOON Network" do you NOT understand? If it wasn't for Naruto and Inu Yasha, Cartoon Network would be in the dumps, but thanks to these non-toon movies, it gives me an excuse to change the channel much more often! Toonami seems to have gone way down hill. DBZ again??? Been there done that a thousand times over. Boring! Bobobo is just plain stupid and I don't watch Zatch Bell either. There's SOOO much better anime out there better than this crap. Where's the quality? Where's Justice League Unlimited? Naruto is the only thing saving you guys. Other that, look at Toonami now, it sucks. So disappointing. IGPX? Another racing show? Geez, has there been a successful one yet? No. Toonami was better when it was on in the weekdays. On to Miguzi, what happened to Winx Club? That's an awesome show!!! Now you have Kids Next Door on Miguzi? Something else I don't watch and change the channel EVERYTIME. Without Yugioh GX and the occasional Teen Titans, Miguze went down hill once you dropped Winx Club. Don't you guys to the research? You air Totally Spies like there's no tomorrow, with zero merchandise to back it up. Code Lyoko is just boring."

[Tom Reed]

A few comments on the comments. Duke said:

"But there are enough anime movies for Toonami to air. Anything with Dragonball in it's name gives you 18 movies right there. Then there's 2 Naruto movies which Viz will be bringing over in 2006 & 2007. There's a Duel Masters movie too..."

Yes, there are. And they will attract...who? The exact same audience that watches "Dragon Ball" and its derivitives. No one who isn't addicted to that series is likely to tune in to watch them. Same for the other series run on CN. They want NEW audiences. They want to grow their numbers beyond their current base.

Same goes for what Brainatra said about the H-B features and the others based on their existing programming. And speaking of his/her comments...

"shows that might merit reviving on CN I can think of include:

- Looney Tunes (and possibly other old theatrical cartoons)
- the "Silver Age" Warner Bros. shows----"Tiny Toon Adventures", "Taz-Mania", "Animaniacs", "Pinky and the Brain", etc.".

Which are all run on Boomerang. And the reason they ran on Boomerang is that they were alienating the core audience CN was focussing on, contemporary children. Not adults re-living their childhood through old cartoons. Also not a good answer, since it eliminates the reason Boomerang exists. (No executive wants to undercut his own decision, even if it's bad.)

[Duke]

Yes, there are. And they will attract...who? The exact same audience that watches "Dragon Ball" and its derivitives. No one who isn't addicted to that series is likely to tune in to watch them. Same for the other series run on CN. They want NEW audiences. They want to grow their numbers beyond their current base.That would make sense if not for DBZ still getting excellent ratings among the 6-11 and 9-14 demos, hence all the commercials for Budoukai Tenkaichi. The mere fact that it's still on the network is proof of that. If it wasn't getting ratings, it would have been banished to the early morning hours (or 5AM) until it ran out of new episodes.

As for Boomerang, it's the most requested premium/digital cable channel yet (or one of the most anyway), though the cable companies still think it's not worth it. And that's despite the older Looney Tunes and Flintstones, etc. getting good ratings back when they were on primetime.

[mg_winxclub]

HOPEFULLY THIS IS FOR NOVEMBER SWEEPS ONLY!!! If no one watches those live-action movies, than they will realize what a dumb idea this was with the poor ratings!

[stargirl]

"You air Totally Spies like there's no tomorrow, with zero merchandise to back it up."


:) Amen to that! Thank you - you have pinned my thoughts about CN to TS exactly!

[Tom Reed]

Duke, you said...interesting that the quote feature doesn't really work well in this forum software...



That would make sense if not for DBZ still getting excellent ratings among the 6-11 and 9-14 demos, hence all the commercials for Budoukai Tenkaichi.

And I said "teenager." Technically, that makes only 13 and 14 year olds watching the Dragon Ball Epic. Older kids aren't willing to watch these shows. And again, these are kids ALREADY watching CN. The big boys at AOL-TW want to get people watching CN that aren't already doing so. Audience growth, y'know.

The ultimate solution would be for CN or someone to produce animated shows that could potentially appeal to older kids, and (gosh) adults. They probably wouldn't be anime for reasons already discussed; many adults think anime is too "weird," and anime has types of violence and activity that are highly censorable when run in prime time. (You will never see something like "Hellsing" running on broadcast TV or free cable while the kiddies are awake.)

If it had not been a dramatic failure, something like "Invasion America" would have been perfect. Or, if that rumored "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Animated Series" that Joss Whedon has talked about could be put on the network...if it ever gets made, and CN decides the risk is worth the high price.

The economical solution would be to have someone of genius create such a series in-house, and have it made under that deep, wide WB umbrella somewhere. It doesn't comfort me that one of the people who could have done that, Genndy Tartakofsky, has gone to Universal.

[moumantai]

i bet if they aired the original tmnt and some of the 80s cartoons theyd get some new viewers

oh and what about x men evolution and uh garfield id love to see them air that cause i love that show

[One Radical Dude]

Here's the full email I sent to Cartoon Ntwork after seeing the live-action Batman commercial:

"Extremely disappointed! What's with all the "live-action" movies? What part of "CARTOON Network" do you NOT understand? If it wasn't for Naruto and Inu Yasha, Cartoon Network would be in the dumps, but thanks to these non-toon movies, it gives me an excuse to change the channel much more often! Toonami seems to have gone way down hill. DBZ again??? Been there done that a thousand times over. Boring! Bobobo is just plain stupid and I don't watch Zatch Bell either. There's SOOO much better anime out there better than this crap. Where's the quality? Where's Justice League Unlimited? Naruto is the only thing saving you guys. Other that, look at Toonami now, it sucks. So disappointing. IGPX? Another racing show? Geez, has there been a successful one yet? No. Toonami was better when it was on in the weekdays. On to Miguzi, what happened to Winx Club? That's an awesome show!!! Now you have Kids Next Door on Miguzi? Something else I don't watch and change the channel EVERYTIME. Without Yugioh GX and the occasional Teen Titans, Miguze went down hill once you dropped Winx Club. Don't you guys to the research? You air Totally Spies like there's no tomorrow, with zero merchandise to back it up. Code Lyoko is just boring." I think you can do better than that, honestly. If I were you, sending a letter to them may be more effective than a simple email. Does anyone know where to get the mailing address to CN?

[sdp]

whatever's the current marketing fad-of-the-moment (Pokemon and its knockoffs).

see, i see that as a cheapshot, the Pokemon Fad was over a long time ago, they have proven their stay and place in the market to not be called just a "fad".

now more on topic:


The Cartoon Network has gotten a lot better since the beginning. The Cartoon Network used to be an all-Hanna Barbera channel where'd you see nothing but Hanna Barbera cartoons. Over time, the Network evolved into showing other cartoon from other companies that does anime and other varieties. That is really a good thing because I am not very crazy about Hanna Barbera with their 2D animation and repeat name characters like Huckleberry Hound- (HH) Penelope Pitstop (PP). That has gotten very old and boring. Today, the Network is now into a vast variety of toons and you hardly see any evidence of the Hanna Barbera staleness. That is a very, very good thing to me. However, in retaliation, Hanna Barbera created Boomerang to get back the dominance of HB to a animated network, seeing that their once dominance of the CN slipping away.
Well, I don't watch that silly channel anyway and I have no worries about Hanna Barbera returning. Whew.
The Cartoon Network is better off without the Hanna Barbera stuff. Thankfully.:D see that is how i began being dissapointed at CN when they started taking all the HB and WB cartoons and replaced them with anime and other cartoons that didn't seem to fit "cn".
but i thought, oh well.

then "adult swim", i always saw CN as a kids channel, i didn't like the fact that they aired more adult cartoons later, of course then i thought "oh well". and i guess it is somewhat covered with "boomerang".

I mean, its not that i don't enjoy adult swim, hell i own half of it on dvd, its just when i was a kid what made me love CN so much was that it was the only 24 hour cartoon channel, even in the middle at night in boring parties or holidays i could always turn that on and have kids programming, that is the main reason i don't like AS.

I'm also not too "big" on the movie ideas....how will that attract older viewers?

[Duke]

And I said "teenager." Technically, that makes only 13 and 14 year olds watching the Dragon Ball Epic. Older kids aren't willing to watch these shows. And again, these are kids ALREADY watching CN. The big boys at AOL-TW want to get people watching CN that aren't already doing so. Audience growth, y'know.While I don't have the exact numbers, DBZ is still big with teenagers. Not counting the thousands of DBZ cosplayers/fanboys/fangirls attending anime cons every year, I've seen tons of DBZ button-down shirts worn by teens as well as lots of DBZ shirts sold at Hot Topic (though it's getting overrun by Naruto now).


The ultimate solution would be for CN or someone to produce animated shows that could potentially appeal to older kids, and (gosh) adults. They probably wouldn't be anime for reasons already discussed; many adults think anime is too "weird," and anime has types of violence and activity that are highly censorable when run in prime time. (You will never see something like "Hellsing" running on broadcast TV or free cable while the kiddies are awake.)Well, TimeWarner is still making those three anime co-pros, which don't include IGPX and PPGZ. And even if these anime are aimed at children, teenagers will still watch (given how many teens watch/watched PPG, Spongebob, Invader Zim, and Fairly Odd-Parents.

[Antiyonder]

see, i see that as a cheapshot, the Pokemon Fad was over a long time ago, they have proven their stay and place in the market to not be called just a "fad".

Brainatra was talking more about the fad concept, not targeting Pokemon.

Heck, back in the early 90s, cartoons just had to be successful to be taken serious by the higher ups.

Now it's no longer good enough for the networks for said show to be successful, they have to be an uberfad of the decade, or they're out on their rears.

Explain why else shows like X-Men Evolution, Static Shock and JLU get the shaft. It's more like and F U to the adult audience.

[Andrew T. Hingson]

Duke, you said...interesting that the quote feature doesn't really work well in this forum software...


And I said "teenager." Technically, that makes only 13 and 14 year olds watching the Dragon Ball Epic. Older kids aren't willing to watch these shows. And again, these are kids ALREADY watching CN. The big boys at AOL-TW want to get people watching CN that aren't already doing so. Audience growth, y'know.

The ultimate solution would be for CN or someone to produce animated shows that could potentially appeal to older kids, and (gosh) adults. They probably wouldn't be anime for reasons already discussed; many adults think anime is too "weird," and anime has types of violence and activity that are highly censorable when run in prime time. (You will never see something like "Hellsing" running on broadcast TV or free cable while the kiddies are awake.)

If it had not been a dramatic failure, something like "Invasion America" would have been perfect. Or, if that rumored "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Animated Series" that Joss Whedon has talked about could be put on the network...if it ever gets made, and CN decides the risk is worth the high price.

The economical solution would be to have someone of genius create such a series in-house, and have it made under that deep, wide WB umbrella somewhere. It doesn't comfort me that one of the people who could have done that, Genndy Tartakofsky, has gone to Universal.
But you see... they don't care much if at all about teenagers. Not for CN and not for Adult Swim. And CN has had quite a few shows that teenagers and adults loved including inhouse productions Samurai Jack and Megas XLR not to mention WBA's Justice League Unlimited. What do all these wonderful shows have in common? They don't get enough kids ratings to stay on the air (and 2 of them were cancelled before their closures... maybe the 3rd will be as well). Right now their gamble is IGPX and I'd say it has plenty of teen appeal as my college friends dig it for whatever reason. Lest we forget Naruto... But in general CN wants 9-14 for Toonami and 6-11 at all other times. Teenagers are left out in the cold unless they can enjoy shows not targeted at their demo (and since AS airs plenty of teenish shows and Toonami airs a few that's not too hard but not as easy as it should be). It's also farely apparent that Toonami can get away with much more than we think and it's really the distributors that are holding the block back from reaching it's potential.

And on the note of anime movies... Why TCM is airing Ghibli and CN isn't baffles me beyond belief. TCM is an okay channel for them to air on I guess but CN would have been ideal. But there are other movies out there as well like Sony's Steamboy.

And CN has the rights to air Dreamworks films as well so where the heck are Elderado, Shrek, etc?

Given the general "okay" on TV-PG and even TV-14 for movies outside of Adult Swim there is hardly any animated movie CN couldn't be airing right now (yes there are some of course but there isn't much compared to what they could be airing).

How about some more FOX stuff like Titan A.E. and Ice Age?

Lots of options out there. They never delved into live action movies before so why should they start now?

[Tom Reed]

Okay, Sketch. You say they don't want teenagers. Who are they going to get to boost their audiences?

They're essentially splitting the little-kid audience with Nickelodeon. Nick doesn't do anything animated for teens. (By the way, I love "Danny Phantom," but while it's ABOUT a teenager, it's really more about explaining what teenage life, dating, and family relations are like to younger kids.)

They have the college crowd with Adult Swim originals, although that snarky would-be "National Lampoon" humor has its limits. Adult Swim "drama" captures the anime crowd, although they split a little bit with G4 (a lot less than when G4 used to be the honest and upright Tech TV).

Comedy Central will sit on its shows like "South Park" and "Drawn Together" until doomsday; they won't license them out. There's no longer any more prime-time animated sitcoms to tap. Unless (and this was kind of my point) CN decides to make some themselves.

So, given their current market shares, how do they get people to watch Cartoon Network that never watched it before - which is (duuh!) the way you expand market share?

They have taken a big risk with "The Boondocks" - it addresses the black community with a lot more pointed humor than "The P.J.'s " did in animation. The only live-action equivalent, aimed at blacks, would be "Def Comedy Jam," and that tended more towards R-rated sex humor than politics and social commentary. That's one way to reach people who the other guys wouldn't address.

(By the way, I've loaned tapes of the first "Boondocks" episodes to some black friends at work who didn't know about it. They loved it.)

Okay, that's one market segment that may start tuning in CN for the first time. Who would YOU do a show for, that isn't a cartoon geek like us, to get them to watch?

[Duke]

Okay, Sketch. You say they don't want teenagers. Who are they going to get to boost their audiences? Well, they're subliminally targeting teens with Adult Swim, since they'll soon be in the right demo to buy the products being advertised.

If products that are aimed at teenagers start paying more for advertising space than Mattel/Hasbro/etc., then CN will start caring about 12-17 again.

And it's not like teens don't watch CN anyway. Plenty of teenagers watch Toonami, Adult Swim, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Puffy AmiYumi, PPG, etc.

[William C. Maune]

Plus, I would assume that CN is targeting teens to at least some extent if they are going to run Batman with a TV-14 rating.

[Jeff Harris]

Thomas Reed! Long time, no see. It's been many, many years since we last conversed about Toonami. I was just getting started at GeoCities, you were at ANP, good times. I was young and naive back then, but now . . . well, I'm still kind of young compared to you and still a little wet behind the ears about this whole industry thing, but I've learned a lot over the years since we last talked. I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you've contributed in this discussion, but I also feel a need to put in my four half-cents in this conversation, which originally was about Cartoon Network's less-than-favorable November "event" of placing live-action movies on their lineup, so here goes.


You say (Cartoon Network executives) don't want teenagers. Who are they going to get to boost their audiences?

They're essentially splitting the little-kid audience with Nickelodeon. Nick doesn't do anything animated for teens.

So, given their current market shares, how do they get people to watch Cartoon Network that never watched it before - which is (duuh!) the way you expand market share?I'll address the second paragraph first. Yes, Cartoon Network is splitting the little kid/tween audience with Nickelodeon, as well as ABC Family, Disney Channel, and Toon Disney. However, Nickelodeon has a foothold on the total kid audience usually dominating the "ratings" every week with reruns of Spongebob Squarepants and Fairly Oddparents, though Avatar (without question one of the best animated series on the air today) is slowly gaining popularity with the youngsters.

And despite the contrary, Nickelodeon has animation for teens, only on their Noggin block, The N. O'Grady airs alongside reruns of Daria, and they're both for teen audiences. And technically speaking, As Told By Ginger was a prominent part of Nickelodeon's Teenick lineup for its run on the network, and it's a Clarissa-esque teen dramedy animated series from Klasky-Csupo.

Cartoon Network is getting the little kids watching in very small numbers. AND THEY WANT MORE. They haven't attempted to even acquire anything outside of Toonami and Adult Swim for teens in years. And they're certainly not succeeding in airing decades-old live-action movies.

Cartoon Network essentially abandoned older audiences in primetime on weeknights and Sundays. The library titles they have are marooned on Boomerang (which is only in a quarter of the homes that have Nickelodeon's all-animation chanel, Nicktoons Network). Many of the Warner Bros. shows they had are only on In2TV, their upcoming broadband network. So, the bulk of their nightly lineup is comprised of Fridays and Miguzi reruns, and they are definitely not teen-oriented. Their teen stuff mainly airs after 11 PM EST on Saturdays through Thursdays and most of Saturday night during Toonami.

You don't see Futurama or Home Movies on during the 9 PM slots. No wonder the former will be Comedy Central bound in the future. And it's not like there aren't a lot of teen-oriented shows already in the can. They could pick up Canadian imports like Delta State if they wanted to, but they won't. The general consensus at the network is foreign animation begins with "J" and ends in "N," though French cartoons are getting a second look throughout the North American market.


The ultimate solution would be for CN or someone to produce animated shows that could potentially appeal to older kids, and (gosh) adultsIf that was really the case, wouldn't they have, I don't know, air Looney Tunes in primetime or invest some money in a new, more "modern" version of The Flintstones? Flintstones on the Rocks was EXCELLENT, and they could have easily made a new series in those designs, but, well, they wanted a show like Camp Lazlo. The truth is that Cartoon Network mostly wants young eyeballs watching the channel. It's like when your testicles drop or you develop breasts, they don't want you at Cartoon Network.


If it had not been a dramatic failure, something like "Invasion America" would have been perfect. Or, if that rumored "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Animated Series" that Joss Whedon has talked about could be put on the network...if it ever gets made, and CN decides the risk is worth the high price.I loved Invasion America. I got the whole series on tape, and I still use the word "yosh" every chance I can. I think it was a "failure" because the WB's boss was on an anti-Spielberg kick at the time, and The WB only aired it during the summer when people are, well, not really watching television. And that Buffy series will never get made in this lifetime because the general consensus in this country is that serious non-comedic original animation will never make it in the degree it has around the world. Unfortunately, Cartoon Network is also in this general consensus, which is a shame because the Star Wars microseries and Samurai Jack, both by Genndy Tarakofsky, were really good examples of what serious animation can do.


They have taken a big risk with "The Boondocks" - it addresses the black community with a lot more pointed humor than "The P.J.'s " did in animation. The only live-action equivalent, aimed at blacks, would be "Def Comedy Jam," and that tended more towards R-rated sex humor than politics and social commentary. That's one way to reach people who the other guys wouldn't address.Def Comedy Jam? C'mon Tom, it's the 21st Century, get with the times. It's The Bad Boys of Comedy now, but I get the reference (Russell Simmon's newer Def Poetry Jam is more akin to The Boondocks with discussions on politics, social commentary, and a little humor about life).


(By the way, I've loaned tapes of the first "Boondocks" episodes to some black friends at work who didn't know about it. They loved it.)Psst. Wanna know why your friends didn't know about it? Because Boondocks isn't advertised before 10 PM. Anywhere. The problem I have with the way Cartoon Network has promoted Adult Swim is that they don't promote the block outside the Turner networks nor on other networks (and contrary to what they may think, not everybody has access to the Internet). I've seen USA, Spike TV, Fox, Sci-Fi Channel, and MTV ads airing on Adult Swim, but I've never seen Adult Swim advertised on any of those outlets.

To paraphrase Lewis Black's questioning the timing of economics courses in the mornings in college, it's like Cartoon Network don't want you to learn about this stuff.

The Boondocks is a great show. It would get even higher ratings if, say, MTV would promote it during one of their many non-music shows on the lineup. They sure as hell aren't going to promote it on BET (because, you know, Aaron is an equal-opportunity offender, blasting that so-called establishment of the community).

I wish I had something witty to say at the end, but, well, I'm done for now.

[mg_winxclub]

I'm not watching live-action on CN, so they're not getting my ratings. Show CARTOON movies, and since it's on during TOONAMI, show ANIME movies instead! It's bad enough Toonami is only on Saturday, and to air live-action ancient movies instead, that's just plain stupid. :mad:

[judyindisguise]

I tuned into CN last night hoping to see Kids Next Door or Fosters, and what do I get? The original Batman! With Michael Keaton~!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT happy with CN right now.

[Draft]

unlike most people, i am not dissapointed with them airing batman, sure, it's live action, but at least it has sometihng to do with cartoons(stares at goonies) sand has to do with wb(stares at disney's honey i shrunk the kids)

[Duke]

I tuned into CN last night hoping to see Kids Next Door or Fosters, and what do I get? The original Batman! With Michael Keaton~!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT happy with CN right now.o.O Batman aired during Toonami. You wouldn't get KND or Fosters anyway, you would've gotten Duel Masters, DBZ, Teen Titans, and Zatch Bell instead.

[DarthNuriko]

Normally I might've been upset about the live-action movies, but to be honest I wasn't watching during those times anyway.

[Craig Crumpton]

Harley, thanks for the editorial. I've been working a lot and haven't watched much CN at all. I tuned in last Sunday night and nearly had a heart attack. I thought CN was gone. The scary thing is: it was!!! It had been replaced with some 80's live-action movie channel.

I remember a CN ad "back in the day" in which they were marketing CN as a channel where you could tune in at any time of day and see a cartoon. It inspired me to send CN a letter stating that their advertising was deceitful, because I had tuned in on one of the exact times mentioned in the commercial (like 3:37 or something specific) and I didn't see a cartoon, but a commercial. I intended the letter as a gag and then thanked them for finally providing a network with 24-hour toonage.

Sadly, cable programming has changed dramatically since then, and CN along with it--even departing from it's own namesake. But thankfully, we have cartoon DVD box sets--vintage and new--with more being released all the time, so we don't have to rely on CN to get our toon fix. And anyway, just because CN is showing a live-action movie, it doesn't mean you have to watch it.

Oh, and Harley? Next time you take a photo like that, please wear cat's eye frames. They say, "Smart AND sexy." Just ask Tina Fey.

[judyindisguise]

o.O Batman aired during Toonami. You wouldn't get KND or Fosters anyway, you would've gotten Duel Masters, DBZ, Teen Titans, and Zatch Bell instead.
I'm glad you've figured out CN's programming schedule. Obviously I haven't. Thought it was a lost cause. Anyhoo, Teen Titans would have been far better than that travesty of a rip-off of Frank Miller's "Dark Knight" comics.

[Duke]

I'm glad you've figured out CN's programming schedule. Obviously I haven't. Considering that Toonami is about 70% of my viewing schedule overall, and it's my favorite night on TV, I always have the lineup memorized. :P Outside of Toonami and Adult Swim, I haven't the foggiest about CN's schedule.

[Saiko]

I'm not watching live-action on CN, so they're not getting my ratings. Show CARTOON movies, and since it's on during TOONAMI, show ANIME movies instead! It's bad enough Toonami is only on Saturday, and to air live-action ancient movies instead, that's just plain stupid. :mad:
Right on!

[Contrail]

Toonami UK is showing Karate Kid 2 on Friday (25 Nov). And so it begins...:mad:

[Saiko]

I wonder how long its gonna tak ebefore the network realises its a bad idea and stops. Hopefully not too long. Between the movies on Toonami and regular CN one can only take so much torture. I mean toonami is one of the best blocks CN has why would they wanna ruin it like that? What's wrong with just leaving the original programming on?

[moumantai]

i hope this doesnt sound rude and if it does i dont mean it to be

you guys are betraying your own name the name of the channel is cartoon network not live action network so please stop showing live action movies

unless the movie is a cartoon or a cartoon/live action hybrid we dont want it

[The Horcrux]

Toonami UK is showing Karate Kid 2 on Friday (25 Nov). And so it begins...:mad:
It looks like the end for CN...

[Redi]

They can barely find space in the schedule to run Courage...but they're airing 2 hour long live action movies?

WTH?

Get it together.

[ShinjiFanGirl]

They don't owe you anything.

[mojokingbee1]

Read my sig.

[Redi]

They don't owe you anything.
I disagree. Cartoon Network...should be cartoons. They owe us that.

[Harley]

Thanks for reading. Hey, PM me when you have some time. =)


Sadly, cable programming has changed dramatically since then, and CN along with it--even departing from it's own namesake. But thankfully, we have cartoon DVD box sets--vintage and new--with more being released all the time, so we don't have to rely on CN to get our toon fix. And anyway, just because CN is showing a live-action movie, it doesn't mean you have to watch it.

Yah. I know. The times, they be changing. I do watch a lot less tv these days for exactly that reason. (Oh, if only I could get Mighty Max and Exosquad on DVD, I'd be set for a bit.) It's disappointing, but life goes on. As you said, the cartoon fix can be found elsewhere.


Oh, and Harley? Next time you take a photo like that, please wear cat's eye frames. They say, "Smart AND sexy." Just ask Tina Fey.

I'll keep that in mind. ;)

[Nobody You Know]

They don't owe you anything.
They're called "Cartoon Network." That kind of implies what they "owe" us.

Put another way... It's been well over ten years, and they've avoided live-action up until quite recently. It leaves the question of "Why?"

Put another way... Read the other five pages of this topic. Neither of us is crossing any new ground.

[James]

They're called "Cartoon Network." That kind of implies what they "owe" us.


No it doesn't. Anymore than the British Broadcasting Corporation should be exclusively British, or operate from solely the UK. You get all sort of products which start in one vein and keep their original name, even as the companies grows into different areas.

They don't owe the viewers anything. They are there to make money. If this is a bad choice, it will show in their profits. If they gain a larger catchment audience, it's clearly a good choice. In the end they are a company offering products. If the range of products doesn't suit you, you go somewhere else. It's not just the companies who change television, it's the viewers. You all stop watching CN, if CN does alter it's cartoon mandate, then a hole is created in the market that another channel will fill.

CN don't owe anything to any set of viewers, the question is whether this movement towards a slightly different market will pull more people in, or send more of their current viewers away.

Whether this was the right thing to do will simply rest in the profit margins. As people say, the times are changing... this move is reflective of that.. I don't like it myself, but I understand that market forces and commerce dictate changes and I think it's best to appreciate that factor than get each other riled up like a posse about to stampede castle Dracula.

It's life, deal with it. :) Times change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worst. Rest assured if everyone IS right, and this was a STUPID move, it will hurt CN more than it will hurt you.. and you'll probably see a move back to form in the future. Personally, I'm not sure, as far as the market's they are trying to tap, that as a company, it is a bad move. And that's not a pleasant thought.

[Redi]

If it wasn't for cartoon fans requesting the network when it was first created and then supporting the channel...would the network even exist today?

A channel that only played cartoons was the big hook for the network...now they want to test the waters a play live action 80s films? Why? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Yeah, they're kid friendly films but they're not animated...why not just put them on TBS?

[mg_winxclub]

If it wasn't for cartoon fans requesting the network when it was first created and then supporting the channel...would the network even exist today?

A channel that only played cartoons was the big hook for the network...now they want to test the waters a play live action 80s films? Why? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Yeah, they're kid friendly films but they're not animated...why not just put them on TBS?
Exactly! Without the fans, the network wouldn't have worked. Now they are testing our devotion? Sorry, not watching live-action stuff when I'm in the mood for some toons! Loosing patience here Cartoon Network!!!