Separate Universe - More Complicated or Less?

[James Harvey]

Marvel cartoons don’t share the same cohesive nature that the DC Cartoons follow, much to the disappointment of many Marvel fans. Is it possible that this is intentional, to free up the cartoons from any possible restrictions? By each cartoon essentially having their own world, does it make it easier for the creators to expand their characters?

[Skyknight]

Spidy and the X-Men, arguably Marvels' strongest series of the 1990s', are interconnected through Spidys' Neogenic Nightmare arc bringing them together, I also like to beleive Iron Man and The Hulk share the same timeline despite the animation differences in "Hulk Buster" and "Helping Hand, Iron Fist"

[Spider-Man]

I would love to see the shows connected but I don't think it's a huge deal. I do enjoy the nods they give to other characters in the series implying the shared universe. It is great to see characters really clash. The Spider-Man/X-Men two-parter during "Neogene Nightmare" was one of my fondest memeories of the show even if the arc wasn't the strongest. It's a blast to see stuff like this.

[Jon T]

Is it possible that this is intentional, to free up the cartoons from any possible restrictions? By each cartoon essentially having their own world, does it make it easier for the creators to expand their characters?
It's definitely intentional, mainly due to the fact that since the 1992, virtually all of Marvel's animated shows have come from different production teams. This is in stark contrast to the DCAU, which have all come through WB, and many of the same core production team-members over the years.

The nearest Marvel ever got to a true shared universe in recent times was with the second season of the Marvel Action Hour shows and the 1996 Incredible Hulk, since all those shows shared many of the same people behinds the scenes - and even then there were a few inconsistencies!

The 'shared universe' idea would be a great thing to see in Marvel animation, but these days it seems to be perceived as too cumbersome with regard to each show made (by completely different people with different styles). This isn't just restricted to animation either, even in the comics over the last 10 or so years, the idea of a shared universe has definitely been played down.

[Spider-Man]

The nearest Marvel ever got to a true shared universe in recent times was with the second season of the Marvel Action Hour shows and the 1996 Incredible Hulk, since all those shows shared many of the same people behinds the scenes - and even then there were a few inconsistencies! I would have to agree there. Despite Spider-Man and X-Men crossover in the Spidey cartoon those shows never really acknowledged each other. Storm made another appearances and there were subtle mentions and cameos but you didn't have to really watch the other show or anything. I guess Marvel farming these shows out did somewhat hurt the Marvel cartoons. It just would have been great to see them build towards a bigger universe in each series.

[Stu]

I don't really mind if the universe's intervine or not, as long as the own's shows continuity makes sense. Situations such as Angel being an X-Man or not, and when the team first met Magneto bug me a little, but I don't care if they show a 4 second clip of She Hulk as an Avenger when she wasn't over in another cartoon.

Of course, it is extremely cool when they all live in the same universe. It was much harder for Marvel than it was for DC of course, as Marvel had different producers and of course, a helluva lot more quest stars than DC, before JLU started of course. :)

[krankyboy]

There are several issues that Marvel has faced on this front -- but sometimes it grows difficult to tie all of the Marvel characters into the same universe when their adventures are based upon films as a jumping-off point. For instance, even though MTV's "Spider-Man: The New Animated Series" featured the same representation of Kingpin from the Mark Steven Johnson's "Daredevil," they probably couldn't have tied into some of the other major superheroes in the Marvel Universe whose rights have been sold off to several different studios. Some of the best villains in the Spider-Man rogues gallery were reportedly unavailible for the MTV series due to rights issues (and the fact that the network wanted younger, hipper villains). And when producing a cartoon, many of these studios might also wish to do something a bit different with the characters that they have the rights to.

On the other hand, the DCU Universe is owned and operated by Time Warner, so they can a bit more control over how each of their properties are tied together.

[S.C.B]

The big difference was that DC took their time, doing one series at a time (except for S:TAS and TNBA). Marvel just churned out all of their cartoons at the same time.

Of course, all of the DC shows had the same production team behind them, so there was a limit to how much they could do at once.

I'm not too sure of the facts... was Marvel going bankrupt as they made the 90s animated series? Or was that towards the end of the cartoons?

[Spider-Man]

I'm not too sure of the facts... was Marvel going bankrupt as they made the 90s animated series? Or was that towards the end of the cartoons?
Their bankruptcy really crippled them in the 1990s and forced the short-lived Silver Surfer cartoon to be cancelled despite healthy ratings. I think it was around this point when there was a large gap between Marvel animated cartoons but I'm not 100% sure on this.

[Stu]

Their bankruptcy really crippled them in the 1990s and forced the short-lived Silver Surfer cartoon to be cancelled despite healthy ratings. I think it was around this point when there was a large gap between Marvel animated cartoons but I'm not 100% sure on this.

You're correct, Marvel's bankruptcy forced the premature cancellations of Silver Surfer, Spider-Man Unlimited and The Avengers. From what I've gathered, each show was told it would have a second season, hence why the first 2 ended with pretty big cliffhangers.

Thor and The X-Men (from X-Men TAS, complete with original cast) were both said to guest star in the new season.

[S.C.B]

In Silver Surfer or Spider-man Unlimited?

And Silver Surfer had good ratings? Really? I don't know, I thought it kinda... y'know... sucked.

[Spider-Man]

You're correct, Marvel's bankruptcy forced the premature cancellations of Silver Surfer, Spider-Man Unlimited and The Avengers. From what I've gathered, each show was told it would have a second season, hence why the first 2 ended with pretty big cliffhangers. Thor and The X-Men (from X-Men TAS, complete with original cast) were both said to guest star in the new season. I thought ratings was the eventual downfall for Spider-Man Unlimited and The Avengers. Those cartoons had the unfortunate luck of premiering right when Pokemon hit the screen and they got completely obliterated. I remember both cartoons were taken off the air in under a month and replaced with some crappy Japanese cartoon.

[Stu]

I thought ratings was the eventual downfall for Spider-Man Unlimited and The Avengers. Those cartoons had the unfortunate luck of premiering right when Pokemon hit the screen and they got completely obliterated. I remember both cartoons were taken off the air in under a month and replaced with some crappy Japanese cartoon.
Whilst I've no idea as to why they were taken off the air, I've read that second seasons were greenlit before the funds went dry. Whilst they might not have been too good, they were told they were getting a second season, hence why Unlimited finished with a cliffhanger. The plan for Spider-Man was to return home mid way through the series, and have the show be similar to Spider-Man: The Animated Series, as no one really liked the idea of having the show set on an alternate world to begin with.

Avengers was also apprantly getting a second season, as they already begun working on the new toys for characters that would be featured in the show (Thor, and I believe one of the villains... can't be sure though)

[Spider-Man]

The plan for Spider-Man was to return home mid way through the series, and have the show be similar to Spider-Man: The Animated Series, as no one really liked the idea of having the show set on an alternate world to begin with. The second season would be him returning to the proper earth right? I remember reading that somewhere on the internet and I think that's a neat idea. It would've been great to see the style they used in this cartoon applied to the regular world. Plus it would've been great to see X-Men appear in the cartoon again. This would have firmly connected this cartoon with the other 1990's edition.

[James Harvey]

Given the current climate for the Animated DC Cartoons, specifically that future shows are likely to take place outside of the universe established by Batman: The Animated Series, I thought this topic could be bumped up for additional insight. Do you think they’ll resemble the Animated Marvel Cartoons of the 1990's, specifically ones that obviously took place in different universes, yet others were obviously connected?

[Spider-Man]

I think this just goes to something Mister Intensity said (I think). You don't need all the shows to be connected to be good. The creative team has to deliver on that. Any connection and references is more like an added bonus if anything. And besides each cartoon having its own world does open the possibility up to bigger things.

[Bones Justice]

I seem to recall an interview with Stan Lee where he told about helping create the idea of a Marvel universe in the comics. He said that was one of the things that made Marvel a hit, that is, the continuity between the different books. If the Empire State Building got damaged in one book, they might show it under repairs in another title that followed. He said it was quite different at the time, since other comic book companies had individual universes for each title that did not really overlap.

I find it odd how in recent times that DC is the one holding most of the continuity. I don't think it's the only reason DC animation is good but it's definitely a popular point.

Back when I read a lot more comic books, I was mainly reading Marvel. I was quite surprised at how good DC animated shows have become in the last 10-15 years.

Still, I think the biggest key is good writing, not continuity. I would love to see a new show in continuity with X-Men Evolution, for example, but the show was really good on it's own. The same can be said for shows like Teen Titans or The Batman. They don't need to belong to the main DCAU / Timmverse for me to enjoy them.

If I had the choice, though, I would rather have Marvel make a universe of shows. I think it's kind of their signature in the comics. Also, if they made all of their new shows interconnected, it would allow them to have more guest-shots of both heroes and villains. Okay, I know that they could do this anyways but with continuity, it spares us (the viewers) from a lot of unnecessary exposition about who this guy or that gal is -- we know 'em from the other series already. At least, the introductions could brief, if needed, rather than needing to re-tell origins and such for both shows.

How hard is it to keep all of this stuff in continuity anyways? I understand the stuff about different creative teams for different shows. But don't comic books have to deal with the same stuff? I don't see why it should be so difficult between only a couple of shows when the comics are doing it for dozens of titles. True, it's gotta be harder when they are doing shows simultaneously instead of one after another (as DCAU did) but not really all that difficult. I can only imagine continuity errors if there was no attempt to communicate between shows at all.

[Xurk]

The plan for Spider-Man was to return home mid way through the series, and have the show be similar to Spider-Man: The Animated Series, as no one really liked the idea of having the show set on an alternate world to begin with.
Wow, I never knew this. That makes it pretty ironic that it got cancelled... :sad:

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

How hard is it to keep all of this stuff in continuity anyways? I understand the stuff about different creative teams for different shows. But don't comic books have to deal with the same stuff?
The difference is that comic books are under far more strict editorial control than the animated shows are. Marvel has an "X-Men" editor, for instance, who keeps track of all the X-books and makes sure that they all maintain consistency with each other. They also build in continuity from day 1 when they talk to the writers about the big picture. I remember an article about a "Batman summit" that gathered all the Batman writers in NYC for a weekend to hash out exactly what was happening where for the next year's worth of titles. Marvel shows have never had this, and nobody has even really held this position on the BTAS-era cartoons for DC either (hence the constant, "Is Teen Titans in the BTAS continuity?" arguments).

Even so, there are still surprises and continuity gaffes in the comics. I can easily see a shared universe of cartoons across different production teams becoming unworkable really fast, especially when you start taking the production delays of animation into account.

Personally, I think shared universes are one of the greatest Faustian bargains you can make. While it may give you a brief sense of a much larger world than the one you're focusing on in one show or comic book, I think it will inevitably turn back to bite you in the end because of the spectre of continuity, especially if you didn't have any kind of grand, over-arching structure guiding the whole thing from the start. The constant squabbles over continuity in fandom and the general perception that continuity locks people out from trying comics leads me to think that a shared universe creates as many problems as it solves, if not more.

-- Ed/Ace

[Bones Justice]

I can see your point when you're talking about lots of titles. But if Marvel was doing only a couple of shows at a time, how hard would it be to pick up the phone and let the other team know what you are doing? These are the characters you are using, this is the time frame, etc. The only time I could see you needing to do a major meeting is if you did a cross-over story but then both teams would likely be involved anyways.

Of course, I'm no writer so what do I know? For example, I don't see what the problem is with Spider-man TAS and X-Men TAS being in the same universe just as they exist. They did, what, two cross-overs? I can't really find a huge continuity problem in either event.

[Spider-Man]

I can see your point when you're talking about lots of titles. But if Marvel was doing only a couple of shows at a time, how hard would it be to pick up the phone and let the other team know what you are doing?
If Marvel Comics can't do that then I doubt even Marvel Animation could! :)

But I think if it went either way things would be fine. Sometimes having some connected series makes for some nice extra moments in the show and little nods for the fans. I don't think its essential really. It really depends on how the creative teams handle the whole thing and that sometimes makes a shared universe or crossover more of a headache than it should be.