Anyone Tired of a Whimpy Superman?

[Eric Draven]

I dont know about anyone else, but I am TOTALLY SICK of Superman being such a friggin WHIMP all the time. Its become popular to keep him weak, so as to actually NEED team members to do even the simplest of tasks. I blame John Byrne for whimpy Supes.

Someone shoots at him (missile, beam, etc..) does he dodge or deflect or catch it? No.. he takes it on the chin, lets out another "Ughhh!!!" and gets knocked into the dirt only to crawl up onto his hand and knees anf fight some more.

Remember the Pilot? He and the others were captured and sitting inside the alien ship, and AFTER the others arrived Supes breaks loose and then uses his heat vision to cut manacles.

HELLO????? Why didnt he do this earlier? Also.. his powers come from solar energy, so couldnt his vision while in a kind of blanketting effect have the same effect as the sun on the aliens?

I also hate the way he seems incapable of doing more then 1 thing at a time. He has Super Speed, Super Strength, Invulnerability, and Heat Vision. He could hammer someone at superspeed a couple thousand times in less then a second, while nailing them with his Heat Vision, and using is Flight with speed to either focus the blows on one spot or simply blanket and crush his opponent.

Instead he throws a single punch, and much like the problem with Dragonball Z/GT, stands around waiting for a response rather then following thru till the job is done.

Flash could have used his super speed to grab rocks and pebbles, and moving at super speed hurl them at the alien ships, litterally cutting their legs off, opening them up, and tearing them down in an instant, before they could regenerate! But here was what bugged me the most.. one simply TRIPPED and its leg broke off and it fell and was destroyed????

We need to further expand and detail folks powers,.. and have them start using them as tools, rather then clubs.

I realize that a truely SUPER Superman would make the entire League redundant and for the most part useless... but hows about they stop being such friggin WEANIES!!?!?!?!?!?!?

ARGHHHH!!!!

[The New Batman]

I've mentioned this in other posts and I agree, Superman does seem really weak. His portrayal is not as good as in Superman:TAS.

[Green Lantern]

Originally posted by The New Batman
I've mentioned this in other posts and I agree, Superman does seem really weak. His portrayal is not as good as in Superman:TAS. Let's be fair, Batman.

Nothing about this show is as good as it was in Superman: TAS. :D

[The Green Hornet]

yeah i wish supes was more of a powerhouse than he is, and i have said as much in some of my past posts

if he gets a solo adventure or maybe one with GL i bet we see his power-levels approach decent levels-- since he would be with a JLer who's power level is fairly high-- no offense to The Batman or Hawkgirl

[The Penguin]

While I agree that Supes does seem kinda weak, one thing to keep in mind is that with 7 characters they are focusing on different strengths. The Flash's only power is super-speed so Superman's speed isn't showcased on the ground.

The heroes have to have some flaws or it wouldn't be fun to watch. You know that in the end the JL is going to win, but if The Flash doesn't trip and if Superman doesn't get knocked backwards, then they would just win the first battle and that would be the end.
For some less-powerful villians to gain the advantage and live to fight in part 2 of the arc, the JLers have to show some weakness. Not every baddie has a stash of Kryptonite to use on Superman.

[Brainiac]

Yeah...I agree. I mean, if Superman was the powerhouse like in Supes TAS, then there would really be no need for the JL a lot of the time....but, since this IS the Justice League show, I think they scaled down his powers so they were a bit more even. Although, this does create some problems.....but, i accept the show for what it is (still love it)

[Dark Phoenix]

I think Superman should be as powerful as he should be, so that people will stop saying that Batman can beat him. :mad:

[Batman 80]

I'm sure we'll see a powerful Superman in the Warworld episode. After all, he will be fighting Mongul. We're probably also get a powerful Superman in the Injustice Gang episode because he'll be the only one capable of slugging it out with Solomon Grundy. I like to see Superman being a powerhouse at times, but I also don't want him to be so powerful that the rest of the league becomes obsolete. This is a team show.

[metaphysician]

Originally posted by Dark Phoenix
I think Superman should be as powerful as he should be, so that people will stop saying that Batman can beat him. :mad:

Um, in the comic, where Superman is way more powerful, Batman can STILL take him down.

Read Tower of Babel.

Read The Dark Knight Returns

[Kal-el]

I'm not a big fan of the powered-down Superman in JL. After watching BB's "The Call, Pt. One" the other day, I saw a Superman that was still very super, but also didn't overshadow the JLU or make them seem redundant. To me, that shows the Supes can be quite super, but also work within the guidelines of a show like JL.

[MattL.]

Thats just the typical case where theres some unwritten law that says its okay for Batman to be nigh-omnipotent but not Superman.

No offense, but DKR can bite me. Its clear that Frank Miller dispises Superman and has no undrstanding about the character what so ever. Also, people waving DKR around the same way Shazam! fanboys wave Kingdom Come as the tome of why their character is cooler than Superman is really **tired**

I can excuse Tower of Babel and even an occasion where Batman could beat Supes, but as an exception to the rule.

One of the major problems is theres no balance. Superman is constantly portrayed as a dink for the sake of elevating Batman. Its like writers and fans who like Batman only have this massive inferority complex that can only be satisfied by having beat up on Superman or make him look like a chump.

In all honesty, it demeans *BOTH* characters.

Heres what Elliot S. Maggin had to say on the issue:

"Superman is no more fantastic than Batman. Batman is no more realistic than Superman. Both require a separate universe with suspended laws of physics, chemistry and biology to rationalize. It's just a matter of how effective the storyteller is at prompting the audience to suspend disbelief. The real question, I think, is what moral issues do you want to deal with in the stories to which the character lends itself. I guess you could call me a "Superman person" because I tend to see the more universal and enduring themes that a Superman story embraces as a better intellectual workout. This does not, however, make the themes to which a Batman story addresses itself either exclusionary or somehow less significant"

Let me add something also. If you actually care so much about wether or not Batman can beat Superman, or some other hero can beat up another, then you've missed the ENTIRE point of what either of these characters is all about.

[Eric Draven]

I think folks are kind of missing my Point.

What Iw as trying to say, was that the Characters.. but Superman PRIMARILY, never really attempt to use their powers to their potential.

If I had Supermans powers, and I came across some shmuck tearing up the city... I wouldnt pop the guy once and then ooze bravado for the spectators. A job needs to be done.. so HAMMER the goofus into the ground.. HARD & FAST, DOZENS / HUNDREDS / THOUSANDS of times in the blink of an eye as needed! Don't let up till my x-ray vision tells me this guy is unconcious. ANd then bind him up for transport for the officials to deal with.

Its like the most honest & funniest spoof portrails of Superman was by Sergio Aroganes. He pictured Supes Standing in a Heroic pose while villians shot guns of various types and caliburs at him while the bullets bounced off harmlessly..

TO HIM

Ther bullets were ricocheting all over town nailing all the spectators.

Why allow them to even shoot the GUNS? why not tear the guns all to pieces before they are even finished being drawn or fired? Why not just catch all the bullets so they are no longer a danger to anyone? Why not simply knock out all the badguys as soon as they start to line up and cause trouble?

I Like the idea of a super Powered individual doing 5-6- or even 7 things at once with their powers. They are not clubs to be swung about, but tools that can be used with persision and skill.

THATS why every time I see Superman take another weak-ass tag on the chin, I wonder why the hell did he stand there and LET the person hit him? Why didnt he even TRY to defend himself? Why leave himself open to a hit in the first place?

The Answer I guess is simple... no big fight scene, no way to pad out the show, and no way to keep folks watching if the action is over in 2 seconds.

Lets Compromise ok? More power, better usage, bigger/meaner/nastier badguys that still require the majority of the Justice Leagues help to combat them ok? But no more wheenie pathitic weakling Superman please?

[Kal-el]

IMO, the safest route to take when discussing the powered-down Superman is to leave Batman out of it. That's a flame waiting to happen. I look at Supes himself, and how his super-ness can work in the context of the Justice League. I feel that a "super" Superman can work very well in JL (as I pointed out earlier in this thread using "The Call" as an example). As seen there, even a much more super Superman cannot do everything. That ep really showed that all JLers have unique talents that Superman doesn't have.

[MattL.]

I dont mind a powered down Superman (as in TAS and the Fleisher toons) or a extremely powerful one (Maggin stories and the Movie).

However, I do think that a fine line seperates a Superman that has to sweat for victory and a total shlub who gets knocked around so the other team members can look good. Not overall, but there have been some instances in JL where they've crossed this line.

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by MattL.
I dont mind a powered down Superman (as in TAS and the Fleisher toons) or a extremely powerful one (Maggin stories and the Movie).

However, I do think that a fine line seperates a Superman that has to sweat for victory and a total shlub who gets knocked around so the other team members can look good. Not overall, but there have been some instances in JL where they've crossed this line.

My Point EXACTLY!! He provides NOTHING to the team except interfearance. He provides no leadership or tactical skills, no initiative. No ability to intercede or prevent events.. His purpse? To take a beating, moan & groan alot, and then walk away from it like it didnt happen

[Nightwing]

I think you guys all hit the nail on the head with what happens to be my only gripe with JL as a show. The fact that we have seven different characters all to focus on can yield mistakes sometimes. That buggs me. :p

And I agree completely about Superman, of course. In fact we've discussed how he was even a bit less powerful than he could have been in SupermanTAS as well. Although there it wasn't as bad as on JL, plus the fact that in a few cases it was necessary.

But hey let's not drag DBZ into this. Ironically, I think their problem is TOO MANY powers quite frankly. ;) But I agree, a little more work to accent our hero's characters and powers while not hurting the story and such would be greatly appreciated.

[Kal-el]

Actually, a more powerful Superman could help to show some of the things he CAN'T do. It could also lead to a deeper characterization of Supes himself.
Now, follow me here... With a more powerful Superman, it may seem like having the JL would be unnessary. I think that with a more powerful Superman comes a greater self-imposed responsibility. That great burden taken on by Supes would/ could cause tremendous emotional and psychological distress for him. He would need to learn to "let go" of that responsibility in order for not only the JL to function well, but for him to keep his sanity intact. As he mentioned in "Secret Origins", he thought he could protect the world by himself...why not expound on that desire or "mission" with a more powerful Superman? Also, as Flash said, he can't be in five places at once. I've always thought that this would be a great path to take Superman down. I'm pretty sure something similar was done in the comics in the last few years, and the way the psychological toll was explained gave Superman a very deep painful description of his psyche.
Just my opinion.

[MattL.]

While we agree on the fact that he's been portrayed at times as far weaker than he should be physically, I disagree on the notion that he currently gives nothing to the team.

He's the heart and the inspiration as well as the diplomatic voice. I think thats what the show is *trying* to go for along with the idea that he's their strength power house (a role usually relegated to the huge guy that stands in the back of the team like in every Image comic you've ever seen.)

Now obviously, while I think its clear that this is their goal, wether or not they're succeeding is the subject of debate.

The JL Superman strikes me as a kind of combination of Jean Luc Picard with the two fistedness of a John Wayne. Its that two fisted aspect thats lacking in most in the show.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Kal-el
I think that with a more powerful Superman comes a greater self-imposed responsibility. That great burden taken on by Supes would/ could cause tremendous emotional and psychological distress for him. He would need to learn to "let go" of that responsibility in order for not only the JL to function well, but for him to keep his sanity intact.

I think that's a marvelous insight. The great danger of putting Superman in a group setting is that he becomes the natural one to solve all the problems, making the other's look like dinks. But if the series showed that Superman can't handle everything himself, that he can't be the cavalry riding to the rescue every time, and if it did so while keeping him as super-powered as ever, then as you said it would go a long way toward balancing the dynamics while also giving him some psychological depth.

[Batman 80]

As someone said an earlier post, Superman brings leadership to the team. He also is the the team's conscience as well. These are important skills to have in any team. Especially when your the leader.

[The Mad Hatter]

Superman was the one who was able to talk Aquaman into giving peace a chance, after all.

And honestly, if Superman was all-powerful, there would be no point for the rest of the Justice League. Besides, being able to hurt him and put him in peril generates drama and excitement.

[Knight]

Originally posted by The Mad Hatter
Superman was the one who was able to talk Aquaman into giving peace a chance, after all.

And honestly, if Superman was all-powerful, there would be no point for the rest of the Justice League. Besides, being able to hurt him and put him in peril generates drama and excitement.

The only problem with that is that in the JLA comic he's at his most powerful and he and the JLA still get challenged because the villians are alot more powerful. Dont downgrade Superman just to do it. I want a super Superman one who stands out from the rest which I think was more of a challenge than the writers were willing to deal with..

[Eric Draven]

Originally posted by hot rod
As someone said an earlier post, Superman brings leadership to the team. He also is the the team's conscience as well. These are important skills to have in any team. Especially when your the leader.

Unfortunately.. he hasnt shown a whole lot of leadership ability, and almost NO tactical input. :(

I REALLY hope they start spotlighting his intelligence and skills more, so far hes been relegated to "Timex" role.

Takes a likin' and keeps on tickin' :rolleyes:

"Let me guess... Gozer worshippers"

[Kal-el]

Superman's intelligence has also been one of his skills that seems to have been de-powered. I don't think that's a good character path for him. I've always felt that his intelligence, tactical knowledge, and quick decision making abilities were some of his best attributes. As it stands now, he's been relegated to the PR man and the guy who gets shot a lot. He has MUCH more to offer the JL. Even in BBs "The Call" Terry referred to him as the greatest hero of all time (then realized he was talking to Bruce and said "one of the greatest"). He should be treated as such in JL.
I have yet to see a JL episode that truely showcases his abilities. I'm hoping that trend changes somewhat. And no massive power fluctuations from one ep to another. That gets annoying.