B:TAS v TNBA: Artwork

[The New Batman]

Ok, I want your opinions on the most important controversal topic in the world; Batman cartoon artwork. Personally, I liked B:TAS style 10000x better than TNBA. Batman was shown much darker, (sneaking up behind enemies, only the white eyes can be seen). Second, the way the villians were drawn was much better in B:TAS. Just look at the Joker (no red lips, face is shaped very odd), Two Face (not as much detail in face, looks rounder), Poison Ivy (forgot to color her), Mad Hatter (a little old man), Catwoman (everything awful), etc in TNBA. The constant red sky at night and yellow sky during the day was also weird. Bullock gained 10,000lbs and Gorden looked like a twig.

I read again recently Batman Animated by Paul Dini and it sounded like he thought the changes were good. He was putting a happy face on changes that totally ruined the cartoon for me. I remember when I saw him at a signing at the WB store a few years back (he signed a cel I bought along with Kevn Conroy and Arleen Sorkin :) ), I asked him about why the artwork was changed for the worse. He said something like because the show moved to the WB. He didn't sound too happy answering, probably because he thought the new artwork was good and I basically said it was bad. Oh well. In conclusion: I hated the new artwork. I hate all the changes. There is not one change from B:TAS to TNBA that I agreed with, not one! It was perfect the way it was and shouldn't have been changed just for the sake of doing something different. What do you think?????

[JLU Dude]

I like both.

[James Harvey]

I don't really think of it that way becuase I enjoyed the show as a whole. The characters were still the same and the talent behind the show was still there. Yeah, they changed the design to set it apart from B:TAS. I guess it all boils down to personnel preference. I don't really mind the changes.

[The New Batman]

The Joker is not the same. As discussed in another post, he's more cartoonish. The Penguin a businessman after being a super criminal in B:TAS? I really tried to like it, but I just couldn't. Some epsisodes were good (Judgement Day I really liked), but most I didn't think were. But as a whole, TNBA, I believe, is very bad. B:TAS was excellent.

[James Harvey]

Again - this all has to do with personnel preference. I'll admit I wasn't too fond of Joker's new look, but I still enjoyed episodes #86 - 109. If you don't like the designs, etc, then that's completely cool. I totally respect your opinion.

[Calhoun07]

The original designs are what hooked me into the series, but I agree that the changes were well done and I liked them just as much. To pick one for me is like asking me to pick apples or oranges. Both worked very well together and both also have strong points in them that makes both series great.

[The New Batman]

I hope you didn't think I was saying you're wrong or anything, Dick Grayson.

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by The New Batman
I hope you didn't think I was saying you're wrong or anything, Dick Grayson.

I don't think that at all! I totally see where you're coming from and I understand as well. I sorta had a rough time adjusting to the new designs as well (especially Joker), but I eventually warmed up to them. Once they made the ROTJ Flashback Joker the official and permanent "TNBA/JL" Joker, I was completely satisified. Don't worry dude, I respect your opinion and there are some instances where I'd agree with you on it for sure. The B:TAS Killer Croc was far superior - and their tweaking was...a bit much.

[Bird Boy]

I mainly like the TNBA designs, cuz they were more "Retro" looking. I just liked the look..more streamlined....

But, I like TAS on a seperate level too....I'll be able to make my final decision when I have the eps on DVD to refresh my memory..lol

-BB

[The Game]

I like both styles in their own way. Some of the redesigns were good- some sucked.

Batman- I liked the original B:TAS one better. but both are acceptable. The yellow eblem seems more classic than the big bat, and the B:TAS utility belt is way cooler looking than the TNBA one.

Bruce Wayne- Again, although both are cool, I give the edge to the original- I think the original B:TAS Bruce Wayne is the best representation of Bruce I've seen. I think he has the look and his whole demeanor... I think the TNBA one seems a little too young, and just not quite how I imagine Bruce.

Joker- DEFENITLEY the B:TAS. This was probably the worse change- it's not better in any way. The eyes, lips, and other features were changed, giving it a lame, flat, unrealistic cartoony look. The original Joker was MONEY.

Penguin- Possibly the best change, the TNBA Penguin was much better than the original. The B:TAS Penguin tried too hard to follow after the one from "Batman Returns", and just looked gross, weird, and in general the character was just unappealing. The TNBA change in both animation and character was awesome, and the sleazy socialite I love came through in perfect form.

Catwoman- B:TAS. When the show first aired, (when I was a kid) I was upset that Catwoman's costume wasn't all black- like in the movie- but now I LOVE the gray look. I think the original Catwoman design is cool and sexy- I love it, with the yellow bead hip-hugger belt. I also prefer the blonde to TNBA's short black hair; I don't care how it is in the comics. The TNBA look is too unrealistic- I hate the fact that her eyes are all white like Batman's- she is too unproportionate and cartoony- the B:TAS one is WAY better in my book.

Riddler: Again, B:TAS. The Riddler redesign was horrible. I never liked his look in B:TAS that much either, but it was decent, the redisign is awful- he looks like he's on chemo or something.

Two Face- Actually, I like TNBA one slightly better. The change is very small, but the new one seems cooler and darker to me... I don't know. It seems sharper and more wicked.

Mr. Freeze- Tough one. B:TAS I guess. The beady eyes in TNBA kinda turned me off... The red goggles weren't great either. I guess the overall look was better in B:TAS.

Poison Ivy: TNBA definitley. She is a million times sexier and younger looking in TNBA, much cooler looking. I hear that Timm wanted to redo her the most- and he was correct in doing so.

Scarecrow- TNBA. The best change I think- he seemed really creepy and not lame like the first time around. He seemed so dark and... TNBA, definitley.

Bane- His brief TNBA appearance is way better of a design than the B:TAS one. He is sleeker looking, and just way cooler.

No one else who is important comes to mind... Just some thoughts.

[The New Batman]

I'm glad the ROTJ Joker design will be the JL design. Although, not as good as B:TAS (my opinion), it's a lot better than TNBA.

[James Harvey]

The new Joker look is sweet. It's the perfect combination of the BTAS and TNBA look. We basically get the TNBA suit, but with the BTAS head, although a bit more angled. The TNBA left something to be desired. While it could have worked - it just wasn't animated good enough.

[Naraht]

oooh, oooh, I'll add my two cents..
Batman, TAS..yeah
Robin..TNBA..I like Tim Drake as Robin..he's got spunk...
Batgirl..TNBA,
Nightwing...TNBA..course, he wasn't in TAS, but hey! He looked good in TNBA
Joker....ROTJ. I didn't like either the TAS or TNBA versions...ROTJ works though.
Scarecrow..TAS-2. He's had alot of looks...TNBA's didn't look remotely human...and I'm sorry, but there's a human in there...
Catwoman, TAS
Poison Ivy...eh, either's ok..
Penguin, TNBA's looks, TAS's character
Killer Croc - TAS. I dunno, I just never liked green croc.
Two Face, not enough change...
Gordon - TAS

[The Mad Hatter]

I also had mixed feelings on the changes. Bane and Scarecrow, especially, looked vastly better in TNBA. Joker and Mad Hatter I thought took a turn for the worse. Others I waffle on... I can never decide if I like the B:TAS Freeze better or the TNBA. (I know it's not a choice, but I actually prefer the BB Freeze.)

And I'd have to say that the ROTJ/JL Joker is the best one so far... while the B:TAS Joker looked good, most of the time the animators screwed up and made the shadows around his eyes look like a mask.

[optimal321]

I really like them both. They worked equally well to convey the feeling, i guess they wanted to. Every single design works really well when used right. Even TNBA Joker. There is one panel in BGA #1 (i think) where he just looks perfect. The black shadows really help.

Looking back, you can really tell that Timm wanted TNBA's Joker to look kinda like how he did in his first scene in ROTJ. Where the only parts of his eyes you can see are little glowing dots. Even w/ the BTAS design, he used this a lot. It just looked to Animaniacy :yakko: :wakko: :dot: sometimes when animated.

Anyway, i guess i'm saying that i just like all the animated designs. :D

[Wing Zero]

Batman-TNBA, although TAS design was good, I prefer the darker look :)

Robin-Definitely TAS, I really really hated Tim Drake. REALLY hated him. Plus, a little kid taking down 3 giant thugs? I don't care how much training he has, physically, that's just crazy.

Batgirl-I think I'll go with the TNBA design...maybe lol. Too hard to decide really, they both look good.

Joker-I'll go with what everyone else has been saying, the JL/BB version is perfect. Although both TAS and TNBA designs worked during the right circumstances.

Freeze-I hated that purple on his gloves and boots, so TNBA wins on this account...although his eyes are a little weird.

Poison Ivy-I liked her when she had regular skin color, it just looked better.

Two-Face-His face became just a tad "boxier" but I prefer it to the TAS one.

Catwoman-She looked rather weak and puny in TNBA. Go TAS design!

Riddler-He was perfect in TAS

Bruce-How could I forget about him? Rather tough call actually for me. The TAS look made Bruce look like a playboy, which he is but...I guess if they gave him the TNBA hair, he would look better. I always thought Bruce's hair in TAS looked too long. TNBA's version was ok, his eyes were changed to blue so that's alright, but his chin grew 2 inches longer or something, which looked odd.

It just depends on what character you're talking about, because I don't like ALL the TNBA or ALL the TAS, just a nice mixture of both ;)

[DisneyBoy]

Well, I've never really loved the TNBA, but I will admit that it had some redeeming points:

-It streamlined the characters, I guess, in the long run, trying to make them more consistant throughout the episodes.
-It gave the artists a chance to improve some of their original designs.

On the whole though, the "streamlined look" just made the show look less impressive, much more anime and less detailed. I'm a stickler for details! As for improving the appearance of certain characters, I think they could have done that within the scope of B: TAS without recreating everyone just to keep the entire show fresh. Then again, they did it in part to keep ratings up and interest high.

I liked the evolutions of Penguin, Ivy and Scarecrow, though episodes explaining the changes would have been nice. Selina's new black outfit wasn't bad, but her giant head, black hair and trampish behavior ruined her completely. Two-Face looked like a broken mirror (ugh!), and became a murderer :mad: ! Nightwing was underused, underdevelopped and his relationship with Barbara popped up twice, in "Old Wounds" and "Subzero", with little preparation for it's occurance or disappearance. As for Robin, I didn't mind the new outfit or character, but they should have made him more of a partner in training. I honestly find myself looking for signs that he isn't experienced as I watch him do triple-back-sumersualt-karate-chop and kick combos. Batgirl looked fine, but to me Batman didn't. His face looked so...angular and dull. And the new logo....sorry, but it isn't as good as the black and yellow one!

[James Harvey]

Believe it or not, but Two-Face has always been a murderer, since B:TAS time. Granted it was neevr mentioned (I think) but it was implied that he did kill people. I even thing the crew said he did, just like how the Joker killed people, but never on screen.

Also, the designs weren't done to keep rating sup. The main reason why the designs were changed was ebcuase Timm wanted to change them and didn't want the show to be a little different, offer something new for fans.

I do REALLY agree on one aspect - we should have seen more of Robin training and messing up. We say Batgirl training in Cold Comfort, so we should have saw more of Robin training. He's the newest member so he should be training more. I think it would have been great to see this!

[Wing Zero]

Heh, after reading that, that got me thinking...how strict would Bruce be on Tim? Plus I would love to see that kid mess up and hurt himself, like I said, I REALLY hate him :p

[The New Batman]

As for the new look of Mr Freeze some of you have been discussing, I like the original look (I'm sure you're not surprised). He looked like a human inside, not a man with a weird face as was changed to.

[James Harvey]

The original version of Mr. Freeze was better I found, too. You know, at my site (which these boards are apart of - http://wf.toonzone.net) in the Image Gallery Ihave comparison pictures of BTAS & TNBA if anyone is interested in using those to help show their opinions.

On change, I barely noticed was the slight tweak work on Harley - who looked awesome in both version.