Batgirl to Oracle...let's talk

[Barb Gordon]

I've noticed that some people here like, or are all right with writers having Barbara Gordon go from Batgirl ot Oracle. But others seem to dislike it, almost loath it to a point where they just simply refuse to acknowledge what the writers have done. I'd really like to hear everyone's differing views on this.

Barb^-^

[The Penguin]

I don't read too many of the comic books (I really like the TV shows) so I just found out a couple of months ago that Barb wasn't Batgirl anymore when I read "Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight" (good book btw).

It seems weird to me that she isn't Batgirl anymore, but I've accepted it. I think it's fine, but it just feels different.

I would be interested in the Birds of Prey show that may or may not happen.

[Beyond Batman]

I really like how Barbara's character developed into Oracle. She provides an information network to our superhero's and is a great representation of disabled people. Seeing how she can overcome paralysis shows how strong of a superhero she is.

[FLIPMODE]

I totally agree with BB.

And why is Dick's character the only one allowed to grow? Barbara had to be something else. Oracle is way better than her Batgirl. As Batgirl she was always the weakest link, that's why the Joker paralized her. Jason Todd, was weak, the joker Killed him. He did'nt have his act together. These were unfortunatly the mistakes of the Batman, and hard headed kids insisting on being his sidekick. Realistically, it would really turn out something like this. Not everyone can be as good as Bruce.

And the difference between the current Robin, AND current Batgirl, and why they'll last longer than their mentors in the same role, is because they do their job better. For instance, Tim wont get killed, because, he knows his limits. And for the most part he does'nt jump the gun, and he knows when to sit one out, and these Days Batman wins all the arguments. He's also a natural detective, I see him being the successor to Bruce, more and more. As for the new Batgirl, no ones going to physically stop her. So she has half the job allready done. She still needs to become a good detective, but at least she's not the weakest link, she adds mucsle to the Bat team. Something that the real Batgirl never did too well.

But information, and great detective skills is where Barbara allways shined. Now she's doing what she does best. And she can be seen in multiple books. She has more potential now than when she was Batgirl.

[MattL.]

Barbra Gordon as Batgirl is waaaay cooler. She's okay as Oracle, but its kinda boring and I never agreed with Alan Moore did to her. Of course Killing Joke came out at a time when it just seemed like all of superhero comicdom was being condemed to grim n' gritty hell, and Barbra was one of the sacrifices.

and if you're gonna have a Batgirl at all it should be Barbra Gordon and not this ninja girl they got now.

I think TNBTAS eps proved just how cool this character could be.

Barbra Gordons first best destiny is as Batgirl. Anything else is to me just very wasteful and boring.

[DerekPowers]

barbara as batgirl was definately the best, but i like oricale too. i wouldnt be surprised if she became batgirl again, eventually.

too bad birds of prey, well, isnt too great of a book. oh well. peace.

[Naraht]

She's coping...and so I can cope with it. I don't think NML would have been as powerful if Babs hadn't been Oracle & crippled.

As to Jason Todd getting killed...he got killed cause ppl hated the character, and called in to have him killed. if only we could do that with Joel Schumacher...j/k

[Domino]

I have the same problem with Barbara still being paralyzed as I do with a lot of the DC Universe. And that is, with technology and magic at the levels they are, there could have been an easy cure. I know there's always a moral lesson she's trying to impart on the reader about perserverance, but come on...this is the same world where Cyborg had his parts replaced. No one needs to be in a wheelchair, especially when they have connections like the Justice League and Titans. And in the real world, if someone had a choice of being healed or staying in the chair, what do you think they would pick? Why don't we ask Christopher Reeve?

I wouldn't mind if she finally decided enough was enough and got some sort of help so she could walk again, and then logically reasoned that she's ten times the crimefighter as Oracle as she ever was as Batgirl.

[Beyond Batman]

In a universe with high leveled magic and technology, would it be the best choice for Oracle to manipulate her disability? Some would consider that the easy way out. I think her paralysis is a reminder of the struggle she had to overcome and it's a symbol of true strength. To easily be wisked away with magic or technology would rob Barbara of her dignity. Remember in Batman Beyond, when Bruce took Talia's offer of prolonged youth? Same concept... "It's not natural."

I understand for many people, seeing Barb in a wheelchair is hard to swallow. I actually found it to be enlightening. It's a reality many people have to face, the fact that we're not all invincible and that the human body is frail. The strength to punch through walls may be awesome, but the power of the mind is a phenomena that always seems to shine through.

It would be easy to make our superheros invincible, untouchable, and flawless. It's not so easy to see a superhero deal with failure and disbelief. A challenge for any writer. To see a superhero emotionally breakdown at the mere fact they won't walk again (a simple day-to-day ability we don't think twice about) is very touching and shows us how human these characters are. It's a level we can understand, that reaches out to readers... a level of humanity.

Barbara may not be slinging Batarangs, flying off buildings, nor throwing lightning fast kicks... but she is providing a communication network to the team and provides extensive information on a global scale. She uses the skills she does have, making them more and more fine tuned. It's better than sitting alone in a room feeling sorry for herslef that she can't walk anymore. That says a lot about Barb, and I feel her character progressed for the better.

Just one quick off-topic note. I can't help but notice how MattL and TerryMcGuiness share the same tone and connotations. Are those two names the same person, because your mannerisms seem awefully identical. If you read any of their posts related to comics, you'll see it too. Not to mention you both have the same birthday, May 15. (wink wink)

[MattL.]

Dont pat yourself on the back for being a super-sleuth just yet Beyond Batman, I dont have anything to hide.

I did use the nick Terry McGuiness and dropped it for two reasons. One, someone lese has a simalar nick and two there was some sort of glitch when I tried to post one day so I simply reregistered.

Why do feel the need to check up on me anyway?

Back to the topic, I'd be ok with Oracle getting somekind of help for her condition but I'd also want it to lead to her being Batgirl again. Sadly, that'll never happen because the mainline wants ninja-girl.

Once again, thank god for TAS.

[MattL.]

and for the last time BB, I didn't start the "Any exclusively TAS fans out there" thread because of you. I started it because its an honest question.

[X-human]

I had a hard time picturing Barbara Gordan as Batgirl to tell the truth. Batman spent half his life training to be an effective vigilante, and these teens walts in and seem to do just fine. "The Batman Universe" to me, is always about the weakness of being human, and over coming these weaknesses. If you think Batman can have a gang of three or four kids running around Gotham without getting any bumps and bruises, just ask any city police officer and they'll tell you about a buddy of their that was gunned down. It's hard to believe Batman alone has last this long, not to mention all his pals. That's why I whole heartedly support Barb being paraliyzed. It's much more real.

I also found it difficult that Batman could keep tabs on so many people, I don't care how smart he is. He's got a lot of other things on his mind. So Oracle just seemed like a natural step to me. They needed someone like her, and they also needed someone who could be jealouse but also not put on a pair of tights and jump in the trunk of the batmobile like this was Speed Racer. Even someone who understands just how tough it is out there, and is able to give them sound data/info that would truely help them.

Batman's never been, to me, about the easy way out. Bruce Wayne's parents were hardly the first, and most certainly won't be the last loss he'll face when he combats evil. He's unable to maintain many freindships or even love, and must face the fact that he or his compainions after a long night at work might not come back. Barb being shot and Robin being killed just drives this message home. For me, Batman never ends with "and they all lived happily everafter."

[The Game]

I don't read comics regularly but I do every once in a while. In all honesty I hate Barbara as Oracle.

I don't know, but I've always watched the TV shows and movies ahead of reading the comics- as a kid I mean. You know, I watched the Yyvone Craig and Animated Batgirl who I liked (actually who I had a crush on) and all of a sudden I'm told that Barbara is no longer Batgirl- and that she's in a wheelchair? I just don't like the idea, although I respect everyone's opinions.

P.S. Something I'm sure we all can agree on: the worst Batgirl was "Alfred's niece" Alicia Silverstone from B&R. I mean c'mon!

[The Penguin]

Originally posted by thegame8866
I don't read comics regularly but I do every once in a while. In all honesty I hate Barbara as Oracle.

I don't know, but I've always watched the TV shows and movies ahead of reading the comics- as a kid I mean. You know, I watched the Yyvone Craig and Animated Batgirl who I liked (actually who I had a crush on) and all of a sudden I'm told that Barbara is no longer Batgirl- and that she's in a wheelchair? I just don't like the idea, although I respect everyone's opinions.

P.S. Something I'm sure we all can agree on: the worst Batgirl was "Alfred's niece" Alicia Silverstone from B&R. I mean c'mon!

I have to agree on that one. I like Alicia Silverstone and everything (well, mainly because she fairly attractive) but I was pretty upset when she wasn't Jim Gordon's daughter in the movie. It was just another thing that made B&R bad.

[Barb Gordon]

ooooo *shudders* don't even get me started on Alicia Silverstone. The absolute worst perso to ever play Batgirl. She made her look like a ditzy blond bimbo. Darn those writers and Schumacher to heck! The least they could have done was keep her a red head, but blond???!!! And not even the comish. daughter! Oi...and the comish, and big fat guy....augh....-_-, it's all so painful to think about how they screwed up such wonderful characters.

Barb^-^

[Beyond Batman]

I'm on the same page as everyone who thinks Batgirl, by Shumacher, was done poorly. Sheesh... I think the only thing Shumacher got right about her was that Batgirl is a female! :eek:

[Bobby Boy 101]

i hate that babs turned into oracle, not b/c I would rather see babs at home doing nothing, but that I dont want my lil Babs crippled like that. :( it makes me want to cry

she needs to be up and kicking and fighting and bringing in the criminals...and having the occassional needed chick fight with Catwoman or Poison Ivy. ;)

[MattL.]

Actually, in a way you bring up a good point.

Barbra Gordon Batgirl is just more **fun** for crissakes!!

Fun in superhero comics (even Batman) does not = subliterate. Despite what post '86 era comicdom might tell you.

[Beyond Batman]

Yes, seeing her crippled is sad. Knowing that she was once flying through the air side-by-side with Batman and is now confined to a wheelchair is very heartbreaking.

However, she doesn't make me feel sad. Reading her in the comics, you'll notice she leaves no room for pity simply because she doesn't care for it. She knows there are other priorities that have to be taken care of.

She over came her disability by reinforcing other strengths. Who knows, this may lead to her quite possibly walking again. I forgot what issue, but they showed Babs attempting to walk on particular occasions with the assistance of hand rails.

If Barbara does walk again, do you think she can come back as Batgirl? Oracle is a new identity that Barb strengthed over the years. Oracle was a key character in the NML saga and still is to many of the DCU. Do you think she'd throw that away so easily? Barbara becoming Batgirl again would be like Nightwing putting on the Robin suit.

For those of you who don't like Oracle, that's too bad. If it's only the wheelchair that bothers you, you should learn to look past it and see how strong Barbara's grown and matured. Let me ask you this, if Barbara one day, just decided not to be Batgirl, would that be a better idea than seeing her in a wheelchair? Or would it be better to see an Oracle with high flying kicks and arm wielding batarangs who also happens to be a computer genius?

If you ask me, there is plenty of physical action going on with Batman, Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl (Cassandra).

Every character in Batman's life has moved on with something new. Every character was given a chance to grow and expand. What makes Barbara as Oracle so hard to beleive for those who can't accept it?

[MattL.]

I can believe it just fine, I just dont think its good.

Replacing her with ninja-girl just rubs salt in the wound.

[Nightwing]

Beyond Batman hit the nail on the head about my opinion of the Oracle situation. Although I'm still in conflict because that's just half of me. The other half of me is completely infatuated with the original Batgirl. As far as Batgirls go, you can't beat her!! Plus in TNBSA she's adorable! lol :D

She proves a lot more as Oracle, but she's got so much as Batgirl that I love so much. The character interaction mostly. But Oracle shows how you can be strong but NOT in physical means, and I just eat up that stuff.

I still prefer the continuities where that didn't happen though.

And as a side note: Yeah, I'm not to fond of the other Batgirl because of comparing her with the original. Kinda unfair I guess, but I'd give her a chance. She'd just never be better than Barb.

[Poison Carley]

I really think Barbra Gordon is the better Batgirl. Like I dunno Cassie is annoying and I think the character lacks depth and hopefully she gets killed on in #25.

I like and at the same time I don't like Oracle. I wouldn't mind it so much if like she could walk. I just hate seeing her like that and I dunno Bruce can walk and he had his back broken. All of that money and he can't fix her? Come on!

I like the animated Batgirl muuuch more!

[Domino]

Black Canary got her canary cry fixed when she took a dip in the Lazarus Pit; Babs could have done the same.

[Barb Gordon]

I tend to go with the flow. The writers made Babs into Oracle, I can deal...somewhat,lol. Okay, when I first found out, I was pretty peeved. But, when i saw how much stronger of a character she had become, and how she was now on her own as a hero, my respect for her grew. True, I would prefer Babs still flying off into the night with the guys, especially Nighty *cough*, but I'm also fine with her being The Oracle in a wheelchair. Babs will always be the best and only Batgirl to me. If she were somehow to regain the use of her legs, I think, though, that I would rather like to see her continue as Oracle then go back to being Batgirl. But I could see her taking on the cape and cowl from time to time perhaps. But that's just my opinion.

Barb^-^

[kid_flash]

I often find when reading flashbacks that I don't have the same appreciation for Barb when she was Batgirl as when she's Oracle. She's a much stronger, more interesting character now. Heck, thanks to the Oracle gig, she earned the #1 Woman in Comics award from WIZARD! As Batgirl she was just so much more one-dimensional.

I seriously doubt Babs would ever take a dip in the Lazarus Pit. Yes, it's tempting, but that's not how she wants to be healed. I think she'd view it as a cheat. She does want to be healed, but through more natural medical procedures.

[FLIPMODE]

Yeah, and I like the new Batgirl, because she's a better addition to the team. Im tired of these in training hero's carelessly joining the team. Tim and Spoiler included. Tim's got the brain power, but when he started he did not have the physical skill.

And Batman does'nt have the time to constantly worry about whether or not his protege, is going to be able to survive an attack. At the very least, if these spoiled kids, (Robin, Spoiler, Huntress, Jason, Sasha and even Barbara) so badly want to back Batman up, physically, then they better be Pro's. A master of a few dozen Combat styles and better than great reflexes at the very least, from the start, with no Bat training.

Only 3 Bat affiliates had come close to these standards from the very start. One being Dick, he was a Natural acrobat, and was raised doing just that. At the very least Batman new this kid, could keep up with him. Azreal, becaused he's mentally programmed to do almost anything. And now most recently Cassandra. Physically Batman has no worries about her, and let's her roam gotham, cleaning up the scum.

So Im glad at least for once, the new character fit's logically into Batman;s life. Batgirl/Barbara logically was something that Batman should not have allowed. As you can see, she turned out to be a liability. She should have spent her years training instead of fighting. If Tim does'nt ante up, maybe train under Cassandra, the same will happen to him. At least Tim did train a little under Shiva. But he needs more.

And there is a difference between Animated Barb, and the Comics. Obviously she did'nt get paralized in the show, but if you watched the show into the new adventures, you'll see that Barb's skills DID advance, and she was more capable, and it seems Bruce trained her hard. So, THAT Batgirl, I can see Batman having more faith in. Dont be fooled though, her comic book counterpart was not the physical powerhouse. And when her skills did not advance, she became a loose end, because logically readers and writers have to say, "Okay, she's not that tuff, something has to happen to her". And if not, It makes Batman's world seem weak, and EASY for any hero to handle.

[Poison Carley]

What about Barbra in Batman Beyond?